1890’s Era Metal Planer: Setting up and Testing Cutters on an Old School Flat Belt Powered Machine
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- Опубліковано 22 вер 2024
- 1890’s Era Metal Planer: Setting up and Testing Cutters on an Old School Flat Belt Powered Machine
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I served my engineering apprenticeship with a company called Brown & Green here in the UK which produced commercial laundry presses and equipment. The huge cast iron bases of the presses were produced in the foundry next to the machine shop and many dozens were stacked outside the buildings for several years to weather. The machine shop had 4/5 (nearly 60 years ago now) large planers in a row which machined these large bases and were all driven by an overhead line shaft. My enduring memory would be the slapping noise from all the belts as the bed went backwards and forwards.
In those days several of the workers run their own little side lines. One planer operator was the man to go to if you wanted cigarettes and snacks, and one of the fitters often disappeared to collect a fare for his taxi business. Great days.
Ditto ... I served my time with ICI Nobel division Ardeer .... the myriad of machine tools was mind boggling... cheers
This restoration was how I found Keith’s channel. Awesome machine.
The best part about planer content is watching Keith struggle to hide his smile the whole time.
I remember you hand scraping that old girl!
glad she will finally be seeing some use :)
doing what she was built for!
After watching the whole restoration, it was nice to finally watch that antique make some chips again.
That is a lovely machine Keith, and you can see that it has been restored with a lot of love.
Perhaps these old ones can compeed with the new machines, but it is like the youngsters have the power and the speed, but grandpa has the wisdom…
Thanks for chairing this experience with us, and a special thanks for keeping these old-timers running, to many of them have gone to the scrap heap sad enough.
"but it is like the youngsters have the power and the speed, but grandpa has the wisdom…" Lovely comment.
Thanks Keith for the video. It good to see the old lady working again. See you Wednesday.
On a side note Keith, I bought a vise just like that from a biker 50 years ago. He had welded a 3/4” drive socket on the end and used a 3/4” ratchet to adjust the vise. I bought it for $15 and have used it ever since as my bench vise. It’s so heavy I’ve never bolted down to the bench. I’ve always wondered what machine it originally came off. And now after 50 years you finally provided the answer! Thank you! 🙏🏻
Good way to start my Monday! Coffee and Keith! Thanks.
Back then, New Haven was a well known manufacturer. Several of my old machinery books have etchings of New Haven equipment. They were an innovative company back then.
I LOVE seeing old tech that worked being brought back to life to do their jobs again. I fix old film cameras for that very reason. And I've even begun making them. So cool to refurbish and modify 'useful toys'.
I love watching that old machine running 🎉
I can relate to the "Probably should have scrapped it" comment! Not because I think it should have been scrapped, but because I've done the same thing! Many years ago I "rescued" a car that was going to the crusher the next day if my friend didn't get it out of his parent's driveway. I paid him $100.00 for it. 1971 Camaro, half missing (no engine or transmission, etc.). Over 25 years I collected parts and "Restomodded" it and wound up with a NICE street rod! To me it wasn't about the "finished" project, but the journey along the way!
I've been following this project from the beginning BTW!
Lovely to watch. My Machinery Handbook (1937) recommends 4 - 5 degree rake on cutting edge - half the 8 - 10 on turning tools.
I never get tired of watching machines from the preewar era being used. I think once you figure out how to cut the tool, you're gonna get a great finish.
I've been waiting on the continued saga on this machine. Just the way it swaps direction is great. Right on 👍🏻
that is a thing of beauty, watching the belts changing automatically is mesmerizing!
Back when Abom79 was working more with his shaper he tried some different tools and found a particular tool that produced an amazing finish. One of the main things with it was that he honed in the cutting edge while in the holder, making use of the clapper box to get a back rake. There are also special tool holders with a geometry that prevents the tool from digging in too much, making it more stable.
Anyway, it's already looking pretty great. Could propably use it to refurbish smaller lathe beds etc. Saw videos of people in india casting lathe beds in molds buried in the ground and then machining the ways on a planer like this one with really crude looking tools, but the result looked pretty good.
Our largest planer mills did up to 16 feet long. We planed Vee and Flat ways on Jig Grinder bases. They were dismantled and removed in the early 2000's.
Keith, when the bed returns have the mechanism hit an air valve that activates an air cylinder that pushes out the clapper box. Also, the air can blow through a nozzle onto the work blowing the chips away at the same time. As long as the bed is returning the air will activate and solve the problem.
Great to see the planar in action after watching the restoration videos.
Great to see such an old machine have life breathed back into it. It may not be top of the line, but it gets the job done for what you need it to do. Love to see it!
nice to see that in use, can't wait to see the intended job.
I watched the whole restauration.. good to see it making cuts
Hah! As to horizontal surfaces, it's not just in shops! This is a continuous (44 years and counting) discussion with my wife! Love the old machines. Fwiw, Abom79 has many episodes on his big shaper that has a similar clapper box. He talks about how the angle of the clapper pivot is super important so that the tool holder swings itself out of the way on the back stroke. If you get it backward, the tool digs in and ruins things. He also points out that when you look at the setup, the correct angle tends to look counter-intuitive - like it should be thee other way. I _think_ yours is right. He dinked around with cutter grinds for a long time to get nice finishes. He uses - as you did - a specially ground shear tool and light cuts for the final passes. He hones the tool _after_ it's in the machine by putting a precision stone on the table.
Thank you Keith.. I really enjoy watching the old machines in action.. to me there is a bit of a disconnect when a computer is controlling everything (not that I'm against modern technology).. with this machine and the others like her there is a real craftsman, like yourself guiding the work and that's just a great thing to watch.
I may have mentioned it in past commentary, your talent in restoration and renovation and preservation is spectacular. Poetry in motion! Thank you!
CNC planners are used heavily in China where I live. They are used for fabricating sheet metal. They are able to cut long straight v Grooves so that the sheet metal can be folded into moldings and similar. The groove allows a crisp small radius bend. Super common here.
Great machine. Thanks for taking the time to show the details of how it works.
Good morning Keith! it is good to see it running. Thanks
When I was a Kid I had job sweeping up at a Machine Shop. There was a Giant Lathe in the shop. That thing scared me to Death.
Somebody put up a sign saying - This Machine does not like STUPID PEOPLE. The planer gives me the same vibe
I've been waiting for this for years!!
Beautiful machine!
Fantastic machine, great to watch in action.
Steve Watkins has a hydraulic planer on a scale like yours. I think he said it takes 60 gallons of hydraulic oil to fill the system. He uses his planer to machine big straightedges, like 5 or 6 feet long. And the surface finish comes out really beautiful.
I was about to mention Steve’s big planer. He grinds a small chamfer on the leading and trailing edges of the part he’s planing to keep them from fracturing. It’s been a while since he’s used it.
Interesting. The adjacent edges of the flat are usually planed also on camel backs I have used. After watching you experiment with the 'planing' cutter I think I understand why. That chill area is removed before planing the working area of the camelback. The slow rhytmn of a planer is relaxing. Thanks for sharing your shop time.
Love this, gotta do something about all of that noise, lol
The thing looks great and in museum quality condition! If it ever ends up leaving the shop, it should go somewhere on display
There’s always a place in a job shop for these machines.
@Keith Rucker, my apartment complex? All 3 buildings have the remains of Line Shafts and King Shaft Alleys still buried in the walls, floors and ceilings. 3rd floor of my building? Line Shaft Alleyway makes a BIG hump in the Hallway floor, and the floor machinery rooms still have the remains of the King Shaft Brackets in the same well structure as the unused cargo elevator shaft.
I gotta say I've been waiting so long to see this running.
At times I've had to bite my bottom lip to stop me sounding like an impatient ingrate.
"WHENS HE FINALLY BLOODY GOING TO USE THIS PLANER ON A PROPER BIG JOB"! 🤣
I donated a $12 last December and will do again but before that me and plenty of others are getting a hell of an education of a guy who gets alot done with what I can only assume is a que/backlog of future jobs a country mile long, for free.... TY!
I can't wait to see how you get the clapper box to work!
Some sort of linear actuator under clapper box?
Mesmerisingly beautiful machine, but indeed too slow to keep up with modern ones. But just to watch it raised my admiration for the mechanical engineers who invented it. A clapper lift would indeed come in handy.
Oh hey long time no see, big metal planer. I remember the restoration series of this, it was a fun one. Nice to see you get to play around with it some more now.
It's possible to go all mechanical, but I would suggest a small ail cylinder and a lift chain to the clapper. A linkage to an air valve off the belt shift rod would raise and lower the cutter in sync with the motion.
great Machine !
Excellent video Keith.
It looks like you need to coat the bed and vise with oil. Rust??
I would recommend wiping it down with kerosene and not simple green purple.
Water is a bad thing.
It’s good to see the old machines working.
Ohhh the Stoker fire box will be tackled
Excellent presentation!! Looking forward to the planer project.
Thank you for sharing. Like the sounds it puts out, a machine at work.👍
Hi Keith,
Have watched many videos of Steve Watkins using his hydraulic planer and he grinds a small bevel on both ends of the workpiece to prevent chipping at the start and end of the stroke.
Sometimes he uses a file, this also helps in seeing the depth of the chill zone.
Cast iron chill is where the mold edges are cooled faster than the body proper so they create white cast iron, very hard and the origin of the term chilled cast iron used in some noir novels as in a hard hearted woman, or she could cut your soul with her chilled iron glare. It is best to get below that 'crust' fast so as not to wear your tooling.
@@CothranMike😕😕 😮When you see a chilled stare like that from a woman back away as fast as you can and don’t say a word!
@@ellieprice363 I hope I move fast enough!
It would be interesting if you could find a way to take a piece of belt from your belt sander and attach it to a post you would mount to the planer. It would be interesting to see if it would give you a nice finish.
Interesting to think that these old machines made such a flat surfaces.
coolest thing since sliced bread.
Your camera went out of focus a few times during your video. Interesting to see that bold machine working. Thanks
That's an awesome machine. Josh Topper mounted a Bridgeport head on his that does a great job for him. I feel that adjusting the angle of the clapper box would help to remove the chatter with a little bit of radius on the leading edge of the bit would improve the finish. Thank you Keith. Nice to see the old girl make chips.
STOKER ENGINE!!!!!!!!
Same thought!
I have never seen a metal planer before, very interesting thank you.
I'd heard of them but never seen one either.
Keith did a whole series on rebuilding this one.
CARBIDE WOULD BE BETTER FOR CAST IRON DUE TO THE AVRASIVE NATRUE OF CASE IRON. GOOD TO SEE THE OLD MACHINE WORKING. STILL USEFUL TO MAKE A FLAT SURFACE ON A LARGE SURFACE.
Get a small magnet and strip of leather and stick it on the back of the tool holder. As the machine travels back over the work it will catch the leather and protect the work piece. Can't remember where I heard of this technique but it was the poor mans tool lifter.
I have seen a grinding head conversion on one of these machines. Just a thought.
Keith, could you mount a brush on the backside of the tool. Maybe even a wire brush that would flip the tool up as it passes the end of the part. Kill 2 birds with one stone.
Happy Monday Georgia! 😊
Really enjoy your videos, in general, but especially your restoration projects that include a quick history of the machine’s origin, use & (in some cases) their “demise” as they are replaced by other equipment …
Nice!! 🙂
What a machine!!!
Awesome machine - we had one about half that size in much worse shape. We finally decided we would never get to it and it was scrapped. The only thing I would add - I think you are just moving too slow. I think you need to increase the surface speed.
Just proves that the people that designed these machines weren't idiots. They had a clue of what they were doing.
If the cutting tool is ground correctly, it dragging back across the surface has no affect on the cutting edge
I thought that but if later planers added this lift up feature it must be an improvement. Why make your planer more expensive for no reason against competitors. Anyways I'm no expert.
Fantastic presentation but please please please sort out the voice audio out as having to constantly adjust volume to hear your commentary on this
Why not use a cardboard box at the end the scraping to capture the filings? I certainly enjoy your videos. Best wishes.
Very cool machine, would love to see a print off the surface plate or run an indicator over it see how accurate it cuts
He's got a whole playlist of every video restoring this. maybe search the titles if you can't watch them all.
@@alstonofalltrades3142 Keith never did show how flat a test cut is off the machine.
I'm curious to see how close that would get a worn out lathe bed to scraping status. I'd experiment on one that is considered "not worth it" by means of grinding (cost wise), first, though. And it may be a real challenge with ways that were flame hardened.
Maybe someone has a lathe in that "DIYDx2" condition that they would let you experiment on ... ?
Maybe you should stop off in NY at David's shop and talk with him. Thanks for sharing 👍
David has it figured out, and seems more than willing to share his knowledge. Plus you’d get to have a tour of his shop!
I'd make a cover for it, to keep the dust off while not used, maybe buy and modify a cheap car cover.
Just use old bed linnen.
TRY A MEGATOVE RAKE ANGLE FOR FINISH CUT.
It would be nice to have closer video of the process at hand ,
it looks like a wonderful machine restoration
YOU NEED MORE SHEAR ANGLE ON THE CUTTER
Steve Watkins has a lot of videos on his planer also dave richards is also very skilled with his planer they are both on youtube
You still need a mechanism that tilts it up in reverse gear.
Was wondering if the chatter marks are from your bull gear sitting too deep in the rack ? Being everything was scraped and ground ?
I'm off to find the restoration videos. Fantastic old machine. I've only ever used the ram type shapers in my apprentice training. Never seen a large bed one.
Josh Topper of Topper Machine in WI adapted a Bridgeport head to his antique planer for using end or face mills when surface planing. Check out his youtube channel on that equipment.
Some cutting oil might make the finish better.
*- Keith, why didn't you automatically take off the rust on your vice and oil it when you set it up?*
I remember it working good
I wonder if the cutting surface speed is too low. Or the belts slipping a tiny amount.
That cutter wants a much bigger cut
And your Armstrong holder needs to go the other way. The way you have it puts all the pressure separating the tool from the main bar, going to give you charter. Flip it
At 8:37 - Keith is describing how the table moves back and forth slowly on the cut stroke and then faster on the return stroke as the table drive belts move from side to side. This helps speed up the work. The difference in speed is caused by the size of the far left and right pulleys mounted on the upper counter shaft.
Good morning
The first time I saw a plainer in action it was also machining metrology equipment,in this case the video was shot in a Japanese reference tables made of cast iron.The table in question looked to me to be 2by 3 metres.
As an alternative to raising the clapper on the backstroke, maybe just plumbing an air line to keep the surface blown clean might answer.
Or a mounted cleaning brush.
I always imagined these things probably have the power to do a super wide and possibly even deep cut. As much as I'd like to see something mind boggling impressive, I can't imagine anyone attempting that because of the risk of breaking something expensive.
My concern is the whole time you were running it. You kept lifting the head instead of letting the machine do it itself, so how do we know that that it will do it correctly by itself if you were lifting in each and every time I don’t know if that meant that that part of it doesn’t work right or exactly
It doesn’t do it itself. You weren’t listening.
Normaly it is dragged back over the part, which is ok also. Not necessarily need to lift it like he did...
CAST IRON AND BRASS LIKES A NEGATIVE RAKE ANGLE.
Try putting a file to the edge of the work where the tool first contacts it, easier on the tool to encounter a slopping edge.
Any guess how much that planer cost when it was new?
You should mount a brush just in front of your cutting blade on the metal planer. This would automatically remove all of the shavings on each pass. You could also find a way to mount a stone to stone-flatten/smooth out the finish.
So cool ....😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
I am thinking your clapper box tool holder is too loose for the surface finish you are looking for. Too much vibration.
You wouldn’t think of holding a tool in a loose manner like that on a lathe, would you?
You could also rig up a cable with a weight over a pulley that is attached to the table to dampen the backlash of the table drive gear.
Keep playing around with the tool geometry it is an art as much as a science!
Keep up the good work!
JIM ❤