In Leipzig, Bach had his hand in commerce related to music. He was an agent for Silbermann Pianos in that city. Bach is credited with suggesting a design refinement to the action of the Silbermann that allowed the repeat, of a single key, to function faster, allowing the pianist to play the same note repeatedly faster than before. Silberman also made organs and Bach knew organs like no one else, was brought in as a consultant both to suggest the size of an organ for a church and to test out and certify that the organ's completion met the design specs. Pianos today (iron frames, tighter strings) are much stronger than in Bach, without comparable strengthening of the violin family.
The articulation she’s looking for is tenuto, as Europeans play it: front end articulation but sustained longer than standard non-legato. In the US tenuto is often played quasi legato - sustained but without front end articulation. This is particularly noticeable in orchestral brass sections.
That Curious Artist Not relating to tenuto, this still may be interesting for you ua-cam.com/video/rEbUNDW9bDA/v-deo.html (How and why classical musicians feel rhythm differently)
@@Michael-Oh this difference is especially noticeable in wind instruments, because they can opt to articulate either softly (da) or with a more crisp Tah. In Europe Tenuto is often interpreted as an emphasis and weight within a phrase, for instance, say, tenutos within a legato phrase. It can also give weight to syncopated passages: ta ta taaah, ta ta taaah, ta ta ta taaah ta taaah (from Rachmaninoff 2nd Smphony Last movement). Rachmaninoff's pianos music is filled with this type of weight/emphasis via tenuto markings. The way the Vienna Philharmonic play tenutos in Bruckner, (Mahler, Strauss etc.) is completely different than the way it's often heard in the US. IMO it should never sound pseudo legato. Consonants are important, especially in German language and music! Cheers - FB
I've heard Simone in concert several times (including with Rebecca's Chiara Quartet) and she's always really exciting to hear. And Rebecca Fischer, in addition to being a very deep & thoughtful musician, is a wonderful human being. These are people who *really* love and understand music. The sensitivity & attention to detail that they are working with is astounding to me. Being this good takes a massive amount of focus & work. "Part of the most exciting thing about being a musician is that there is never going to be an answer." Yes!!
Although the music here is played very nicely the music lacks a very important gesture that I feel can only be captured on period instruments. There’s a tendency to draw back instead of lifting the music into the air, I think the idea of drama and the ‘grit and grind’ of the music is lost. playing period music on modern instruments is kinda similar painting a detailed oil painting with a paint roller.
This might be just a matter of different 'taste' That little moment when the pianist was playing together with the male violinist, they were very much on a magical musical little journey together. The little hairs on my arms were rising... no more words are needed then :)
A better analogy is that playing period music on modern instrument is like doing recreating an oil painting on a digital illustrator software (like pro-create). Yes Pro-create will never truly recreate the myriad of textures that oil paint can, but Pro-Create is also capable of new perspectives on existing images that Oil cannot either. Thus this Piano rendition will ALSO convey important gestures, albeit of different and new sort, that period instruments in turn could never capture. Playing period pieces on modern instrument isn't a loss: it's a trade, one some people like and some don't.
Since I learn how to play harpsichord for a couple of year, I refuse to play any Baroque keyboard music on piano. Because Baroque music on harpsichord are amazing, natural, organic. And it's totally a different world. Since then, Baroque music on piano feels like..i would say..wrong. More like playing Chopin on celesta or on digital keyboard nowdays. You can't bring the real spirit of Baroque music even if...you try it so hard. What you can hear in fact is, Bach in "Romantic style".
Wonderful to hear the thoughts and discussions. My only concern is that the piano is too loud. I wonder if that’s a recording engineering problem or if that was the balance in the room?
Not too sure about the massive taking time and subito piano to make it dramatically expressive. In my opinion, I feel that the expression is within the harmony, the meter and the texture itself. Interesting interpretation though
Origins of music unevidenced. Except it is gift to humanity from God the Creator. Music continues in heaven. Discontinues in hell. Jesus Christ came from heaven to earth for one purpose only - to die on cross for remissions of pre-existing sins of every single person and to resurrect. Jesus Christ providing forgiveness from pre-existing sins for every single person, salvation from eternity in hell and free entry to eternity in heaven for all who repent of sins in Jesus Christ. Other side of death is eternity. Eternity in hell. Or eternity in heaven through Jesus Christ. Penalty of pre-existing sins already paid by Jesus Christ on The Cross. Accept HIM. Be saved from eternal in hell. Enter heaven. Enjoy heavenly music. For free.
@@palladin331 Errors and crimes committed because of sin/evil pre-existing in every single person. If there is no sin/evil, I don't need to know it's origins, I don't need to know the remedy. I don't need God if there is no sin/evil. Police, judiciary, jails, passwords, media etc prove there is evil. Found Jesus Christ very enigmatic, being God still humbled to die on cross for remissions of pre-existing sins for every single person to save from eternity in hell.
@@rmk2879 I'm selling the Brooklyn Bridge today for $100 per buyer, minimum 10,000 buyers. Send cash only. (FYI, there is no sin because sin requires a valid authority to define it and enforce its prohibition. There is no such authority, and anyone claiming such authority is a charlatan and a fraud. Errors and crimes are different matters; they are established by reason and civil authority, which in turn is subject to revision).
@@palladin331 Without boundaries life is chaos, purposeless, meaningless. God and government put boundaries. Can live without Brooklyn Bridge. Thanks for the offer. All the best selling.
The fallacy of the original instruments movement is that they try to play the way the audience heard it, not the way the composer imagined it. Beethoven was constantly pushing instrument makers. Somewhere in one of his piano sonatas, he writes a swell under a single note.
The piano produces a sound only when the key is pressed all the way down, while the harpsichord produces the sound as soon as the key is touched. These deep strokes of the finger and the key take a certain amount of time on the piano, so you can't play as fast and you can hardly add ornaments. This is a physical disadvantage of the piano, especially when it comes to baroque music. That's why it's not a »fallacy« to play such music on the appropriate instruments, but a sensible approach to the music. As you can see in the video, the music simply falls apart because of the slow piano.
Once we start imagining what the composer was supposed to have imagined, we're on thin ice. Most of the time, period practice as dictated by available instruments, contemporary documents, and performance treatises is a more solid, if still problematic approach. I don't know what Beethoven might have had on his mind, but I do know what instrument he and the people he wrote for had on their hands.
Indeed! Assuming the fallacy that the composer did imagine sounds that did not yet exist and composed with different ensemble balance, tone-colour technique and performance practice in mind without ever specifying it or communicating it to instrument makers, theorists and performers is ridiculous. Who in their right mind would think composers wrote what they wanted their audience to hear instead of people hundreds of years in the future who would be wise enough to musically and artistically bring their work into the world the way it was intended. And of course Beethoven was always literal, with bowings and everything else. He didn't want to evoke a certain mindset, nay, he wanted the impossible to be played.
Piano, sadly, can't accommodate all registers of music written for the harpsichord or the fortepiano. Specifically, piano's action is just too slow and labored to allow for the speed certain pieces (such as BWV1052/1) clearly need. Also, the temptation to introduce dynamics (a near-impossibility on a harpsichord) is hard to resist when you're a classically trained pianist.
Yes, let's have boring music without dynamics and shaping just because they couldn't be achieved on the far inferior harpsichord. You couldn't pay me enough money to sit through any harpsichord performance, let alone a recording. The twangy sound quickly grates on the nerves and it is unbearably limited in range and interest. I can't stand puritanical, dogmatic approaches to Baroque and early Classical music. To think that those composers would not have made use of every advantage the modern piano possesses is beyond arrogant and ridiculous. They most likely would never look at a harpsichord again and who could blame them?
@@renatofabbro5263 Exactly dear Renato. Bach's writings are a clear indication he had a far more superior instrument in mind than those available at that time. Just look at any of the fugues f.e. Bach was lightyears ahead. I just recorded the C# Minor Prelude and Fugue WTC Book I on a Fazioli 9 foot. That sound!
This is an amazing video for students. A masterclass in chamber music rehearsal process and communication.
Brava et bravo. Merci.
Violinist so musical !!
This is one of my favorite concertos! Very interesting and thorough discussion.
In Leipzig, Bach had his hand in commerce related to music. He was an agent for Silbermann Pianos in that city. Bach is credited with suggesting a design refinement to the action of the Silbermann that allowed the repeat, of a single key, to function faster, allowing the pianist to play the same note repeatedly faster than before. Silberman also made organs and Bach knew organs like no one else, was brought in as a consultant both to suggest the size of an organ for a church and to test out and certify that the organ's completion met the design specs. Pianos today (iron frames, tighter strings) are much stronger than in Bach, without comparable strengthening of the violin family.
The articulation she’s looking for is tenuto, as Europeans play it: front end articulation but sustained longer than standard non-legato. In the US tenuto is often played quasi legato - sustained but without front end articulation. This is particularly noticeable in orchestral brass sections.
Very interesting, I never thought that tenuto was played differently around the would.
That Curious Artist
Not relating to tenuto, this still may be interesting for you
ua-cam.com/video/rEbUNDW9bDA/v-deo.html
(How and why classical musicians feel rhythm differently)
@@Michael-Oh this difference is especially noticeable in wind instruments, because they can opt to articulate either softly (da) or with a more crisp Tah. In Europe Tenuto is often interpreted as an emphasis and weight within a phrase, for instance, say, tenutos within a legato phrase. It can also give weight to syncopated passages: ta ta taaah, ta ta taaah, ta ta ta taaah ta taaah (from Rachmaninoff 2nd Smphony Last movement). Rachmaninoff's pianos music is filled with this type of weight/emphasis via tenuto markings. The way the Vienna Philharmonic play tenutos in Bruckner, (Mahler, Strauss etc.) is completely different than the way it's often heard in the US. IMO it should never sound pseudo legato. Consonants are important, especially in German language and music! Cheers - FB
This is a fantastic video for piano students (especially) to witness the rehearsal process with accomplished musicians --thanks tonebase!
I've heard Simone in concert several times (including with Rebecca's Chiara Quartet) and she's always really exciting to hear. And Rebecca Fischer, in addition to being a very deep & thoughtful musician, is a wonderful human being. These are people who *really* love and understand music.
The sensitivity & attention to detail that they are working with is astounding to me. Being this good takes a massive amount of focus & work.
"Part of the most exciting thing about being a musician is that there is never going to be an answer." Yes!!
If Toby Flenderson were a female pianist.
Although the music here is played very nicely the music lacks a very important gesture that I feel can only be captured on period instruments. There’s a tendency to draw back instead of lifting the music into the air, I think the idea of drama and the ‘grit and grind’ of the music is lost. playing period music on modern instruments is kinda similar painting a detailed oil painting with a paint roller.
This might be just a matter of different 'taste' That little moment when the pianist was playing together with the male violinist, they were very much on a magical musical little journey together. The little hairs on my arms were rising... no more words are needed then :)
You should see your eye doctor.
A better analogy is that playing period music on modern instrument is like doing recreating an oil painting on a digital illustrator software (like pro-create).
Yes Pro-create will never truly recreate the myriad of textures that oil paint can, but Pro-Create is also capable of new perspectives on existing images that Oil cannot either.
Thus this Piano rendition will ALSO convey important gestures, albeit of different and new sort, that period instruments in turn could never capture.
Playing period pieces on modern instrument isn't a loss: it's a trade, one some people like and some don't.
Since I learn how to play harpsichord for a couple of year, I refuse to play any Baroque keyboard music on piano. Because Baroque music on harpsichord are amazing, natural, organic. And it's totally a different world. Since then, Baroque music on piano feels like..i would say..wrong. More like playing Chopin on celesta or on digital keyboard nowdays. You can't bring the real spirit of Baroque music even if...you try it so hard. What you can hear in fact is, Bach in "Romantic style".
It’s too slow
Very interesting and a joy to listen. Thank you.
Saw her play in person--still has the constipated face while playing.
And then theres Glen Gould
That articulation is detaché in strings..
Exquisite, this!
Wonderful to hear the thoughts and discussions. My only concern is that the piano is too loud. I wonder if that’s a recording engineering problem or if that was the balance in the room?
Excellent video, great musicians, thanks for posting. By the way, Rider at 18:42!
Harpsichord and especially clavichord ruin Bach. It is by far best on the modern piano with no pedal or minimal.
String players can produce ANY articulation you want.
Such a joy!!
Too much vibrato for Bach
There are no rules for those who don't know them.
Not too sure about the massive taking time and subito piano to make it dramatically expressive. In my opinion, I feel that the expression is within the harmony, the meter and the texture itself. Interesting interpretation though
Origins of music unevidenced. Except it is gift to humanity from God the Creator. Music continues in heaven. Discontinues in hell.
Jesus Christ came from heaven to earth for one purpose only - to die on cross for remissions of pre-existing sins of every single person and to resurrect. Jesus Christ providing forgiveness from pre-existing sins for every single person, salvation from eternity in hell and free entry to eternity in heaven for all who repent of sins in Jesus Christ.
Other side of death is eternity. Eternity in hell. Or eternity in heaven through Jesus Christ.
Penalty of pre-existing sins already paid by Jesus Christ on The Cross. Accept HIM. Be saved from eternal in hell. Enter heaven. Enjoy heavenly music. For free.
Except for one thing. There's no such thing as sin. Errors and crimes, yes. Sin? No.
@@palladin331 Errors and crimes committed because of sin/evil pre-existing in every single person.
If there is no sin/evil, I don't need to know it's origins, I don't need to know the remedy. I don't need God if there is no sin/evil.
Police, judiciary, jails, passwords, media etc prove there is evil.
Found Jesus Christ very enigmatic, being God still humbled to die on cross for remissions of pre-existing sins for every single person to save from eternity in hell.
@@rmk2879 I'm selling the Brooklyn Bridge today for $100 per buyer, minimum 10,000 buyers. Send cash only. (FYI, there is no sin because sin requires a valid authority to define it and enforce its prohibition. There is no such authority, and anyone claiming such authority is a charlatan and a fraud. Errors and crimes are different matters; they are established by reason and civil authority, which in turn is subject to revision).
@@palladin331 Without boundaries life is chaos, purposeless, meaningless. God and government put boundaries.
Can live without Brooklyn Bridge. Thanks for the offer. All the best selling.
The fallacy of the original instruments movement is that they try to play the way the audience heard it, not the way the composer imagined it. Beethoven was constantly pushing instrument makers. Somewhere in one of his piano sonatas, he writes a swell under a single note.
The piano produces a sound only when the key is pressed all the way down, while the harpsichord produces the sound as soon as the key is touched. These deep strokes of the finger and the key take a certain amount of time on the piano, so you can't play as fast and you can hardly add ornaments. This is a physical disadvantage of the piano, especially when it comes to baroque music. That's why it's not a »fallacy« to play such music on the appropriate instruments, but a sensible approach to the music. As you can see in the video, the music simply falls apart because of the slow piano.
Once we start imagining what the composer was supposed to have imagined, we're on thin ice. Most of the time, period practice as dictated by available instruments, contemporary documents, and performance treatises is a more solid, if still problematic approach. I don't know what Beethoven might have had on his mind, but I do know what instrument he and the people he wrote for had on their hands.
Indeed! Assuming the fallacy that the composer did imagine sounds that did not yet exist and composed with different ensemble balance, tone-colour technique and performance practice in mind without ever specifying it or communicating it to instrument makers, theorists and performers is ridiculous. Who in their right mind would think composers wrote what they wanted their audience to hear instead of people hundreds of years in the future who would be wise enough to musically and artistically bring their work into the world the way it was intended.
And of course Beethoven was always literal, with bowings and everything else. He didn't want to evoke a certain mindset, nay, he wanted the impossible to be played.
Piano, sadly, can't accommodate all registers of music written for the harpsichord or the fortepiano. Specifically, piano's action is just too slow and labored to allow for the speed certain pieces (such as BWV1052/1) clearly need. Also, the temptation to introduce dynamics (a near-impossibility on a harpsichord) is hard to resist when you're a classically trained pianist.
🤣🤣🤣
Lol
Yes, let's have boring music without dynamics and shaping just because they couldn't be achieved on the far inferior harpsichord. You couldn't pay me enough money to sit through any harpsichord performance, let alone a recording. The twangy sound quickly grates on the nerves and it is unbearably limited in range and interest. I can't stand puritanical, dogmatic approaches to Baroque and early Classical music. To think that those composers would not have made use of every advantage the modern piano possesses is beyond arrogant and ridiculous. They most likely would never look at a harpsichord again and who could blame them?
@@renatofabbro5263 Exactly dear Renato. Bach's writings are a clear indication he had a far more superior instrument in mind than those available at that time. Just look at any of the fugues f.e. Bach was lightyears ahead. I just recorded the C# Minor Prelude and Fugue WTC Book I on a Fazioli 9 foot. That sound!
@@thepianocornertpc I agree completely! Congrats on your recording. I bet it sounds amazing on a Fazioli.