Love it! My interpretation differs slightly concerning Sauron’s actions if Saruman seized the ring. Sauron’s defining trait is his almost inhuman levels of patience. I don’t think Sauron would be in any hurry- he would wait for his ring to consume and destroy Saruman in good time, before reclaiming it as his own.
I think, after victories at Helm's Deep and Isengard, he would have aided Gondor and presented himself as Gondor's savior. Denethor would have been easy for him to manipulate, and using the seeing stones he could have even communicated his intention of aid and began pre-emptively planting the seeds of his mental domination.
I love the thought of gondor seeing an army on the horizon and then their heart drops when they see its orks but the fighting uruk Hai cut through the lines of mordor
Saruman would barter a political gain to maintain an alliance and benefit with Sauron or he would await the attrition of Mordor's forces in the assault on Gondor, should Mordor prove hostile. The second option was the most likely. I think there would be some time gap for Saruman to numerically strengthen his army while Sauron was busy with Gondor. Meanwhile, Saruman would continue to spawn more Uruks, more Wargs, and equip the men of brown land to strengthen his military might.
Sauron had more than enough forces in Mordor to march on Isengard and still defeat Gondor. To get the ring back from Saruman, Sauron would have likely gone with that army.
One note, if Saruman got the One Ring, there's a secondary problem for Sauron-the Ringwraiths would no longer be subject to him, but to Saruman along with many of the forces created through the Ring's power. Tolkien had stated that Gandalf could have mastered the Ring, though he was vague on the time it would take to do so, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that Saruman could have done so too. "If I had this thing you would know, for you would bow down and call me Master."-Saruman to the WitchKing
He was supposed to master the Ring and even so.. the Ringwraiths would be no danger for the forces of Mordor or the Elves / Alliance (Glorfindel alone would scary them). Saruman's army is less in number. He would be overcome
As I said in a post: Sauron can be defeated the way that Morgoth was defeated. Saruman could only 1) destroy the ring, or 2) to bring Sauron to Aman to be judged. But since Saruman became evil, he couldn't go for any of these 2 options = He can never win! Sauron would come back in thousands of years with another plan as well. Sauron's soul would be always in Arda, waiting for right moment
Gandalf was also stated explicitly to have the power to destroy Saurons soul in a 1vs1 no doubt Saruman had the same abilities. Sauron during the hobbit was defeated do to Saruman and his machinations Gandalf is clear on this. Saruman with the ring would no doubt have similar success.
@@TheDixieBassMan THE ONLY SOLUTION IS WRITTEN EXACTLY ON THE BOOK. Explanation: 1) Istari and Glorfindel were not allowed to use their full power 2) 1 vs 1 was impossible, because of first point mentioned. And the aggressor has to kill all Mordor's army alone before meet Sauron. 3) Sauron, as Melkor, was not inclined to fight, because his eventual defeat means that his spirit could fly back to Mandos, to be judged and this was not even an option. 4) the ring has his own power. It is a device and it will always put an influence (big or small) on who wears it, changing the original nature of the individual
Saurman of Many Colors Could Saruman have defeated Galdalf the White? Given that the reborn Gandalf became the What probably by Valar or Eru's intervention?
one on One, No as we saw when Gandalf came to Isenguard post Helms deep and broke Saruman's spell over of words over his company and then the staff of Saruman.
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD If it was Iluvitar who arranged for Gandalf's return, I think the fix was in. Gods of that kind of power do not mess around. they make sure. like having Gollum conveniently placed where he could use Frodo's finger for a Coney Island hot dog and then, while he was doing the Happy Hop, go over the edge. I can just hear the poor bastard "I worked and slaved for 3 volumes of over 240 pages each and then THIS crap happens: bonuvaSITCH!!!" and Sam says'"What an ingrate Master Frodo: He didn't say 'AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!'. Poor show, Gollum". Frodo turns to Sam and says "Just shut your mouth: I was supposed ot be the Hero in all of this" and pushes Sam over the edge and says "That fixes THAT, now, theyll have to believe my story about how Sam died bravely, giving me a chance to push Gollum off the edge and throw the Preci...erm...Ring in after them" and puts a gold shiny objet in his pocket "Eat your heart out Sauron cuz I'm comin' for YOU. And while we're at it; Galadriel, Do you REALLY want to spend your life with a broken down old elf when you can have the ruler of the upcoming 4th Age universe?". Don't miss out next thrall-packed episode "Shire-ly You're Joking or Old Hobbits Die Hard" and DON'T CALL ME "SHIRE-LY"
@@SpacePatrollerLaser Yes Iluvitar set up Gandalf to return and allowed him greater power to overthrow Saruman and contest Sauron more directly. Your other part though well I am lost on it. If you mean He set up the final moments of Gollum then Yes as well.
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD That is what I meant. The rest was an amalgam of the video that showed that Sam was the real hero and the April 1 video about the Eagle taking the Ring for himself and as manycheap jokes as I could get, which, to quote Tolkien "The tale grew in the telling"
And the production of Saruman consist on breeds between people, plus the usage of wood as a resource to craft and build..... the rate of building speed would’ve increased but not enought to yet beat Sauron, in that I agree
The one thing that seems really off to me is Gandalf's attack at Helm's Deep. If the forces of Rohan were already defeated and the orcs took the fortress, Gandalf and the Rohirrim wouldn't attack it. Cavalry is strong on an open battlefield, but it phisically can't assault a fort. It just can't. For that you need infantry, ladders, rams and other siege equipment. No capable commander would even think of assaulting a frotress with cavalry. And both Gandalf and Eomer were more than capable commanders. It wouldn't be so simple for Saruman to kill Gandalf. I think they would retreat to Edoras or to Gondor, or do literally anything else but attack Helm's Deep.
These types of videos are a lot of fun. Saruman of many colors, I think Gandalf would not have fallen in battle not only with his new powers as the white he also possesses an elvish ring of power. Even if those factors did not save him, he would have been sent back yet again possibly with even more power to take Saruman out.
Unwind your what-if a bit... how would a situation arise where Saruman could win? If the Uruk-hai had missed the Company at Parth Galen, then: Boromir still lives, Merry & Pippin never show up to rouse the Ents, the Three Hunters never speed their way across Rohan & encounter Eomer... Not sure where Gandalf shows up. Theoden doesn't awake. Helm's Deep taken handily. Erkenbrand stranded behind enemy lines. How does the Grey Company make it thru? Can Aragorn make it to the Paths of the Dead? Without the muster of Rohan, what likely shows up at dawn on the Pelennor Fields is Saruman's army. Minas Tirith falls & the Witch King doesn't (unless by Saruman's hand). However, there's a distinct possibility that Sauron interprets Saruman's march as a sign Saruman has the One Ring. This serves the same function as the March of the King... distracting Sauron & keeping the Nazgul occupied (perhaps Saruman breaks thru & takes Minas Tirith anticipating Sauron's reinforcements) while Frodo & Sam & Gollum reach Mount Doom. Ring still destroyed, but at a far greater cost. Interesting loose-ends in this scenario... (This also leaves room for the Valar influencing things to cause the Uruk-hai to find the Company...)
I like these 'what if' videos so keep it up 😅 also, if it is from an event that's only mentioned in the books or Silmarillion. And ofcourse 😜 Saruman of Many Colours
I really hope someone sees this! Please haha im just so curious! When Gandalf and the Fellowship are heading towards Moria and the Carahdras pass, where exactly did Sauron and Sarumon think they were headed? If they didn't think they would try to destroy the ring, why wouldn't Sauron just send an army to take it from 9 walkers? Anyone's info would be lovely!! Thank you
Why did Saruman not take direct control of Rohan at any point? In Theoden's time he more or less had control through the King's mind and the influence of Grima but it seems like he could have subverted the entire kingdom and installed himself as the literal ruler. Saruman being immortal could have done this at any point. First work on killing off the ruling elite of Rohan which would create political instability through accidents and assasinations. Using the power of his voice, he could then convince the Rohirrim that he should serve as interim ruler to end the instability and strengthen Rohan's position against the coming storm from Mordor. Given that he was able to sway the literal Witch-king with that voice, I don't think he'd have much trouble convincing the Rohirrim that as an immortal and wise Wizard he could do a lot to improve their nation if they were to accept his rule. Now this is going to tick off Lothlorien, Rivendell and Gandalf as it would be seen as a betrayal of the mission given to the Istari who were merely meant to guide and not rule over men. Saruman could though make a legit point that Rohan alone would be too weak without his 'interim' rule to hold back Mordor and if that were the case then the Elves would be next to suffer the blows of Mordor and all of the West with unknowable results. I think that would be enough to placate Elrond and Galadriel but probably not Gandalf but there would be very little he alone could do. Now there are a number of advantages for Saruman here: 1) He can spend potentially decades building Rohan and more specifically brain-washing the nation at large into accepting him as a pseudo-God King. 2) He can recruit many human spies and search the West for the Ring rather than sending out shady half orc spies of dubious effectiveness. 3) He can use his crafting skills writ large on Rohan and have better results since humans are continually depicted as being more creative and more effective engineers than orcs. 4) He can build solid alliances with Gondor, leaving both it and Rohan better prepared to contain an attack from Mordor. 5) He can also avoid having to fight the Ents or the need to bother with creating an orc army or having any kind of alliance with Mordor. 6) He would have a much more effective military in Rohan with heavy cavalry basically unmatched by Mordor can produce bar the Mumakil which seem limited in number. Saruman would at worst appear as a tyrant but in no way close to the threat of Sauron. His open control of Rohan-a human kingdom-would avoid the absolute evil of consorting with Orcs and specifically tying himself to Mordor. There would also be no military expansionism save only to perhaps push the hosts of Mordor out of Southern Mirkwood and Dol Guldur permanently. So, Saruman would remain an 'ally' of the wise albeit viewed as an extremist and only accepted with a grudging tolerance given the approaching war with Mordor. That being said, if the 'Wise' discovered his covert desire to possess the One ring for himself then everything might change and we might see the Elves marching to depose Saruman who would then send his Rohirrim Cavalry to fight them. Men vs Elves whilst Sauron would sit off to the side waiting to pick off the weakened winners of such a struggle. Not a great result. The other scenario could see Saruman actually acquire the One Ring probably prompting Sauron to send his main armies immediately into Rohan instead of attacking Gondor. So, we may end with an interesting scenario where Gondor rides north to send aid to Rohan backed up by Elvish armies coming from the North and West, whilst Saruman works desperately to master control of the One Ring before he gets overrum by Mordor's armies or gets taken out by the Elves, who would undoubtably turn on him to recover the ring if they defeat Sauron's onslaught.
What if frodo didn't take the ring to mordor? What if Gandalf and a saruman swapped roles? What if the they took the gap ofRohan? What if tree beard was the ring bearer?
I love the 'what if' scenarios, but because my concept of Saruman is one of craft and machinations and industry, and because of his complete disdain for nature and for Radagast in particular, I have a difficult time contemplating him taking the Ents into account in any significant way.
If Saruman had found the Ring? Why would it be any different from Gollum, BIlbo, Frodo etc? Gandalf describes what would become of him if he took the Ring, when Frodo offered he Ring to him.
My question is why would the ring affect the wizards as they are also style of beings? Even if they are not allowed to use their full power that doesn't mean that they are diminished in spirit. It feels like it is a convenient plothole. Melkor was an overwhelming power that corrupted Sauron; taking that into consideration you would need the same amount of power to tame the other wizards.
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but having taken Gandalf out at Helms Deep, would he have not had Gandalf's ring and with the One ring even more powerful?
The thing is, I don't think Gandalf would be killed at Helm's Deep. That's one part of the story that doesn't make sense at all. If the orcs already took the fortress and killed everyone inside, no capable commander would attempt to take it back with cavalry. Gandalf would retreat to Gondor, probably. Or do literally anything but assault Helm's Deep.
ive never understood why after his defeat saruman didnt just rejoin the free peoples, he thinks they have a tiny tiny chance of winning but surely a tiny tiny chance of being on the winning side is better than dying, not to mention with his help the free peoples stand a far better chance, not to mention what was stopping the free peoples from breeding their own uruk hai? Saruman proved you can grow them and they arent loyal to souron so why not Gandalf grow some for the sole purpose of protecting people? you would have a strong force of creatures whose sole purpose is war
All the other beings of a higher order as well as Galadriel, Gandalf and others would have stepped in and destroyed him. Not too big of a threat if you think about it.
I have question for someone on here, Why does Saruman's Staff mimic the look of the tower of orthanc? Because the tower was there long before Saruman resided there so did he alter his staff to look like the tower or was it just a coincidence?
Just in the movies were they similar, in the book Orthanc was a pinnacle of an impenetrable black rock that did not look as if it had been made with hands. The walls of Minas Tirith were made of the same black rock and only the gate was vulnerable to attack. The huge Argonath statues were made of the same black cement.
I've seen some vod on it somewhere; Boromir would kill Frodo, but the rest of the fellowship would not know until it's way too late. Boromir would return to Minas Tirith avoiding confrontation with the fellowship at Amon Hen probably. He'd show the One Ring to Denethor who approves of the deed. Boromir would continue to lead the forces of Gondor and gradually be ruler in all but name. As mentioned in the book, he'd send out alliance offers and mustering calls to all free peoples he'd know to get as big an army as possible to challenge Mordor. Perhaps he'd be tempted to kill his father at some point due to the whispers of the Ring. The Fellowship, would probably go to Minas Tirith after finding Frodo's body eventually as they'd have nowhere else to go. They need to get the Ring back, or the free world would fall after all. Boromir would hope he could persuade some of the fellowship to join his cause as they would be useful, but after noticing they cannot be corrupted, he'd probably end up killing them as they first plead to see reason and then refuse his offers to join him. In Minas Tirith while having the One Ring, the remaining fellowship members would stand no chance. Even if Boromir would summon an army big enough to stand a chance against Mordor which is extremely unlikely, the One Ring would probably betray him in battle, killing him the same way Isildur died, making Sauron the ruler of Middle Earth afterwards.
@@FCGroningen1987 nice take, I can see it playing out that way, maybe Aragorn trying to avenge Frodo and still save the quest. Freaking ring knows how to find your weakness.
@@Batkoku I don't think Boromir would let his guard down around Aragorn anymore considering he'd be his main rival for rulership of Gondor. While corrupted with power, he'd not tolerate a rival. I find it more likely that Faramir would "do the right thing", eliminating his brother to try and save the world.
@@FCGroningen1987 I dig Faramir, and how in the books, he says he wouldn't take it if he found it on the ground. He'd probably be the last hope in this scenario.
I think Saruman would have won because the Nazgul would be in his service, and likely some of the Nazgul's troops by extension, not Sauron's had he found the one ring. Furthermore, Saruman's ability to build and grow an army in a short amount of time would have been increased by his possession of the one ring. As such, I don't foresee a direct confrontation between Saruman and Sauron even happening, though if it did I am unsure who would have won. I think it would resemble Tolkien's statement on Gandalf's hypothetical confrontation with Sauron had he gained the one ring: superior strength on one side, but the ring's true loyalty on the other.
By the time Saruman could have discovered about Frodo being the ring bearer and that he had split from the Fellowship quite some time ago, Frodo and Sam would have reached Ithilien. Saruman's aerial spies might have been able to find them but even if they did, how is Saruman going to get people there to capture Frodo in time? Ithilien was full of forces from Mordor as well as the Ithilien Rangers, neither of whom would look kindly on Saruman's people. No, I think it far, far more likely Frodo and Sam end up being captured on their way into Mordor or as they attempt to reach Mount Doom. At that point, Sauron has the One Ring and it's game over. I'm also very dubious a bunch of Uruk-hai would actually be able to defeat and kill Gandalf plus I don't think you accounted for the presence of the Huorns at Helm's Deep. I think Saruman's Uruk-Hai are in the end defeated there and sooner or later Gandalf and Saruman have their confrontation at Isengard with Gandalf breaking Saruman's staff and power as happened in the book.
This entire "What If" scenario only becomes plausible if Saruman's Uruk-hai capture Frodo, at Amon Hen, in addition to Merry and Pippin. And even then, his Uruk-hai would have to evade the Rohirrim, at the Fringe of Fangorn, where in the book they are brutally slaughtered while resting. This is the only manner in which Isengard could gain possession of the One Ring. But it matters not. Sauron would inevitably come for Saruman (and the Ring), and the Ring would ultimately betray Saruman, because it yearns to get back to Sauron's hand.
@@jacob4920 I agree that was the only time he had a real chance at getting the One. After that the only chance would have been if Saruman himself had gone to try and find Frodo and that wasn't in the cards. But I have read within the past few months that there were a few beings in Middle-Earth that could have mastered the One themselves and it would no longer seek to return to Sauron. How long that might take I have no idea but it does leave open the possibility that Saruman could master the One himself.
I envision an army of uruks armed with muskets and cannons. That would be kinda fitting if he had time to prepare for an assault on mordor after winning his local wars and securing a powerbase.
Makes sense as Saruman had invented gunpowder. Given enough time, he may well have invented gunpowder weapons. Such early weapons would basically have rendered older artillery, bows and crossbows obsolete. Melee weapons and plate armor made from good enough tempered steel would remain in use for a few more decades, until gunpowder weapons had advanced enough to render most all other medieval era weapons and defenses obsolete, much like what happened in real life.
@@zStC1 that only heightens my point. They put a lot of effort in those too but receive little to no viewership. What I recall is that they are provided even less from those.
"He really did not come close to completing his given task" This isn't 100% accurate. He didn't remain true to his mission, but Gandalf implies that his treason and opposition to Mordor were an impediment to Sauron. The actions of the Uruk-hai inadvertently interfered with Sauron's orcs' attempts to capture it, and the victory at Helm's Deep galvanized Rohan and positioned them to arrive at Minas Tirith at the right time. If Saruman had been honest early on and shared what he learned of the fate of the Ring, things might have gone better earlier on, but his actions did indirectly contribute to the fall of Sauron. Maybe, like Melkor's attempts to disrupt the Ainulindalë, Saruman was in some way unable to disrupt the ultimate will of Eru, regardless of his specific actions and choices.
His task was to aid the Free Peoples. That he did so inadvertently because of his own evil designs is hardly what he was tasked to do. Had he held true to the task he was given, he would have eagerly helped figure out how best to destroy the ring once Gandalf figured out what it was. Indeed, that the ring was the One might have been figured out many years earlier when Sauron wasn't as strong.
@@istari0 no saruman had it right because he betrayed the valinor who have been ignoring the evils of middle earth both with sauron and melkor and taking away chances from sauron as well
I disagree. His war on Rohan actually DELAYED the Rohirim from answering Gondor's call, and also weakened them. King Theodin knew what was going on and knew the call to arms was coming from Gondor soon, and would have still mustered the Rohirim once his scouts or diplomats in Minas Tirith reported the time had come. The difference is the Rohirim would not have been drawn off to the West, AWAY from the main threat of Mordor, and would not have been too busy fighting an existential threat of their own to be preparing to defend Gondor as effectively as they'd have liked. They also would not have lost the heir to their throne, would not have lost so many soldiers to the war with Isengard, and would have thus had better leadership and greater numbers to muster. King Theordin would also not have been distracted by a treacherous Grimmer - who may have remained loyal to Rohan in the absence of Saruman's temptations. I don't think Sauron would have known enough about local Rohirim politics to have known he could make an asset of Grimmer like Saruman did. Also, if Saruman had remained loyal to the West, he'd have also been able and willing to send the forces of Isengard to the aide of Gondor, so not only would the Rohirim be able to arrive in greater strength, but would likely have been part of a joint force of Rohan AND Isengard. Isengard may also have been able to send a secondary force to assist the elves of Lothlorien against Dul Goldor and Moria. This could have led to a faster defeat of those 2 strongholds of Mordor, freeing up his and Lothorien's armies to either move north to aide Erabor and Dale, or move east to join forces with Gondor, Isengard, the Gray Company and Rohan at The Black Gates. This would also have freed up the Woodland Realm Elves to aide their allies in Erabor and Dale against the northern invasion force much sooner, possibly forcing the sieging Easterlin army to retrat and lift the siege of Erabor, freeing up Dale and Erabor to join them and press the retreating Mordor army further east, So no, Saruman's trechery weakened and slowed the response of the West to the point it almost cost them the War of the Ring. A loyal Saron would also have meant the Gap of Rohan would have been open to the Fellowship, which would have hastened their passage east, and they would likely have arrived on the borders of Mordor with the Ringbearer sooner then in the cannon timeline. However, this would also likely mean Durin's Bane would NOT be slain by Gandulf, Gandolf would not be returned stronger as Gandulf the Whine, but that last part would not be needed as Saruman the White is true to his allies so he's still filling the role of White Wizard. Also, Radigast would likely not be distracted on some fool's errands but made aware his help will be needed, and he may well have been up north, aiding the Elves of Mirkwood or the dwarves and men of Erabor and Dale. The Fellowship would also likely not have met Galadriel in Lothlorien so would not have her gifts. Though a loyal Saruman may councel them to detour there, advising it would be crucial to their quest to seek her council, so that meeting may still have happened anyways. The Balfog still being alive may have meant he would have attacked Lothlorien directly though, but that may have drawn Saruman from Isengard to face the Balrog himself, making Saruman the hero who slays Durin's Bane. Still, I think in this alternate timeline, things overall do go smoother for the Men of the West.
I enjoyed this video, but I had a thought that requires a jumping off and differing enough that I can not place a time stamp. Essentially this is my own "what if". I start with the breaking of the Felliwship. Frodo crosses the Anduin and disappears, while Saruman's forces capture Frodo and Pippin. Early on there is a three way conflict in which Sauron's orcs and the Orcs of Moria are destroyed by Saruman's forces. The remaing travel at a higher speed, and Eomer misses them as they bypass Fanghorn completely. Eomer, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are quietly imprisoned and later executed on Grima's order. However, because if these events, Frodo and Sam successfully encounter Gollum who leads them close enough to Mordor to protect them from Saruman. Grima now quietly finishes off Theoden and Eowyn becomes the Queen. Though she hates Grima, Saruman's friendship is even more critical because of the turmoil so much strife has caused and Eowyn is forced to retain him as an act of "friendship". Saruman uses his voice to break the resistance of Merry and Pippin and they join his side in the war to come. Saruman gives up trying to gain the Ring, but is now focused on keeping Sauron from attaining it. Gondor sends to Rohan for aid, and with the entire might of both Isengard and Rohan, neither force at all depleted at Helm's Deep, they easily crush the armies of Mordor at Pelenor and the destroy the Corsairs who have launched to reinforce the Witch-king. In the meantime, the madness of Denethor has been prevented through contact with messengers from Saruman, Faramir is kept safe by Gandalf who has come warning against the aid of Saruman, but Denethor is desperate and refuses all counsel. At the Battle of the Pelenor Fields, Merry and Pippin save Eowyn and slay the Witch-King, but die from their injuries. A political marriage unites the realms of Gondor and Rohan under one monarchy as Saruman quietly arranges the transition of power and makes Faramir the king of both Arnor and Gondor. Saruman and Gandalf now lead the effort to destroy Sauron, as Gandalf is left with no choice but to support the wizard he fears is nothing more than a new Dark Lord in the making. The final Battle of the war plays out almost exactly as it does in the original and Sauron is destroyed, and all the other rings of power lose their potency. Saruman returns to his tower at Orthanc with his remaining forces and grows in power as he makes war with the orcs of Moria and the Misty Mountains, Mt. Gundabad, and Moria, as well as the Elves of Mirkwood and Lothloien, before moving against Dale, Erebor, Rivendell, the Shire, and at last the Grey Havens. During this time, he quietly ventures into Moria and Mordor and gathers the remaining knowledge to craft his iwn ring of power. Now with all his potential enemies destroyed or neutralized, he dawns his Ring and proceeds to cement his rule of Middle Earth in a manner similar to his accusations against Gandalf in their final confrontation in Two Towers.
Interesting topic. Although I have to respectfully disagree on some points. If helms deep had fallen and Isengard was heavily fortified, the ents and Gandalf wouldn’t have attacked with reinforcements. Although the future would indeed look grim for the fellowship. If Saruman gained the ring I doubt Sauron would have attacked him head on. He would lose if he did. Sauron was severely weakened by not only losing the ring but also losing his original body by Eru. The ring would have tipped the balance of power in Sarumans favour, at least in the short term. Sauron was a lousy fighter. His powers where of control, domination, Manipulation and craft. He could bend a whole world to his knees but really wasn’t that prolific in war. In particular duels. Much more likely Sauron would hide and wait for the ring to slowly eat away at Saruman. It was made of Saurons soul and had allegiance only to him. Give enough time and it would slowly but surely sabotage even a very powerful Maia like Saruman. As for Saruman hiding the ring from Sauron it wasn’t really possible unless he just didn’t use it. In which case he would lose the initiative. I’d love to hear your guys thoughts!
These are good points - both Gandalf and Galadriel admit that the ring would, eventually, corrupt them and (In Gandalf's case) push them into Sauron's service. Perhaps Saruman would know that, and swiftly strike at Sauron in order to defeat Sauron before the ring could wear him down.
I agree. If one of the great, like Saruman, possesses the ring of power, they will become a match for Sauron. He put so much of his own native power into the ring that it "levels up" anyone with the will power to wield and control it. That's why Sauron is terrified when he thinks that Aragorn has the ring. It levels the playing field, even if the outcome is not guaranteed. And surely Saruman, of the house of Aule the smith, wise in ring lore, having crafted hid own ring of power already, would learn how to use the one ring as well as Gandalf or one of the elven lords, if not better?
One of my favourite channels on UA-cam is Alternate History Hub, which takes real life events and questions what would have happened if things had gone differently, so I enjoy listening to the What If videos for Lord of the Rings too. There's never a 'right' answer, but when you know the cannon (or real life) facts well enough, you can build really intriguing and realistic What Ifs. I always enjoy these videos you make.
There's no battle required; Saruman would gradually succumb to the Ring's influence, and in so doing Sauron would still rule through him. He could have immediate mastery over it and a million Uruk-Hai at his command and Sauron would still win simply because the Ring survives.
Wouldn't it be possible that if Saruman gets the One Ring and wears it, he'd just end up being corrupted by Sauron and becoming his puppet without realizing it? The influence of the ring is powerful and even though Saruman is too, he could end up manipulated into just doing all the things that Sauron wants for reasons he rationalizes to himself until eventually his will and Sauron's are indistinguishable?
This probably would be the most likely outcome. By the time of the war of the Ring, Saruman was already remotely controlled through the Palantir. Now add the One.
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I think too much of sarons power is in the ring. How would sauron who cant even hold a physical form for long anymore overpower sarumon who is now empowered with sauron's strength. If sauron had that much strength left he couldve just won without the ring. Unless he only wanted it for self preservation.
What if Saruman had somehow managed to convince the Ents and Huorns to be on his side? that at least was what I’ve always thought that was one of his biggest mistake
I think Saruman's best outcome was that Merry and Pippin never made it to Fangorn, then there would be no rising of the Ents, and no attack on Isengard. Victory at Helms Deep was always more likely than the actual outcome. From then on, with Rohan defeated, he could concentrate on building up his forces, and wait. By doing nothing, the ring would be destroyed, Sauron would fall, but Saruman would remain with a powerful army, ready to pick up the leadership of the remnants of the forces of Mordor. Gondor without Rohan, or the army of the dead would have been destroyed on the field. Victory would have been handed to Saruman by Frodo and Sam, though they wouldn't know it as they would have perished at Mt Doom.
Maybe not. With Gondor destroyed, there would be no army marching to the Black Gate, hence the road to Orodruin would likely be filled with Orcs, for they would have no "bite" to fight against at the northern border ; and eventually chances for Frodo and Sam to pass unseen would shrink close to zero, making it highly more likely they are captures, searched and killed and whatever is found on them is sent ti Barad-Dur (as was the mithril mail taken to Frodo in Cirith Ungol...) For Saruman to succed, he would need to follow the same strategy as Aragorn and Gandalf: confront Sauron at the Black Gate or wherever far from Mount Doom to sway his attention and have the One destroyed. He'd be less powerful, but with no evil power strong enough to beat him he'd rule Middle Earth nonetheless. But to do so, he'd need to know where the One is heading and for what purpose, hence he needs at least Merry and Pippin to reach Isengard...
I would love to see what if tree beard killed saruman, found the one ring, and found the entwives. I'd even just be fine with what if treebeard did not lose the entwives.
What-if video idea for you to do: What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
The only way Saruman wins if he defeats the army’s of Sauron then cast the ring in the fire. Then he would be a formidable force and not have to worry about Sauron. Thus he could rule.
I think Gandalf rightfully said that Saruman only had a chance against Sauron if he found the One Ring. I don't think Saruman had any actual chance of getting the One Ring due to the timeline of events though. He'd be fully pre occupied with the battle for Helms Deep for quite some time. By the time he'd be done, Frodo and Sam were already either in Ithilien or even much further (around Minas Morgul or Cirith Ungol). Even if Frodo was stuck in Emyn Muil or the Dead Marches, I don't see how Saruman could have first send hordes of crows and then forces to retrieve the ring on the east bank of the Anduin. Sauron would have multiple armies in the field as well; 1 occupying Minas Tirith and 1 crossing Cair Andros into Anorien. The all seeing eye would have seen it at least. I think there is a technical alternative if Saruman would get his hands on the One Ring. I think he'd offer himself as the only alternative to Sauron to the remaining people in Middle Earth. Considering how bad Sauron would be and the fact that Saruman had a history with the remaining free peoples, it's not impossible I think. Also consider he'd have power over the bearers of the Three and that the One Ring would boost his existing powers, of which his speech was apparantly the most powerful one. With the One Ring, his speech etc. I think most of the remaining free peoples would reluctantly side with Saruman. How the battle would go afterwards would be a mystery.
I think it would ultimately come down to how the ring interacts with Saruman's voice, his greatest power. It could amplify it to the point that truly none could contend with the will of Saruman, perhaps even the ring itself would be persuaded. Very interesting indeed, love Saruman and his fighting Uruk Hai
Hi broken sword I'm posting a video on why frodo had to leave to shire on December 4th could you watch it and give me your thoughts? Idk maybe you'll disagree with me and have a different opinion and that's cool
Would you like to see more What Ifs??
Let’s get some yes’s or no’s below to let us know!! 😁
Yes please!
Yes yes yes yes
Yes
@Amanda 🌷🍀.! interesting. Would she gain power from his spirit if she consumed him?
Yes 👍 what if isildur had destroyed the ring
I love “What If” scenarios. I think it’s fun to hypothesize a situation if it went a different way. Good job tackling this topic.
Love it! My interpretation differs slightly concerning Sauron’s actions if Saruman seized the ring. Sauron’s defining trait is his almost inhuman levels of patience. I don’t think Sauron would be in any hurry- he would wait for his ring to consume and destroy Saruman in good time, before reclaiming it as his own.
I think, after victories at Helm's Deep and Isengard, he would have aided Gondor and presented himself as Gondor's savior. Denethor would have been easy for him to manipulate, and using the seeing stones he could have even communicated his intention of aid and began pre-emptively planting the seeds of his mental domination.
I never thought of that I like your theory alot
I love the thought of gondor seeing an army on the horizon and then their heart drops when they see its orks but the fighting uruk Hai cut through the lines of mordor
I love these. It’s like having a conversation with someone who knows their middle earth history. Kinda rare for me, anyway.
Saruman would barter a political gain to maintain an alliance and benefit with Sauron or he would await the attrition of Mordor's forces in the assault on Gondor, should Mordor prove hostile. The second option was the most likely.
I think there would be some time gap for Saruman to numerically strengthen his army while Sauron was busy with Gondor. Meanwhile, Saruman would continue to spawn more Uruks, more Wargs, and equip the men of brown land to strengthen his military might.
Sauron had more than enough forces in Mordor to march on Isengard and still defeat Gondor. To get the ring back from Saruman, Sauron would have likely gone with that army.
Well met! Awesome analysis as always. Keep up the great work Mellon! Saruman was misled by his delusions of grandeur.
The time finally came I been waiting all day !
I hope you enjoy it 😁
@@TheBrokenSword oh yes I did thankyou!
One note, if Saruman got the One Ring, there's a secondary problem for Sauron-the Ringwraiths would no longer be subject to him, but to Saruman along with many of the forces created through the Ring's power. Tolkien had stated that Gandalf could have mastered the Ring, though he was vague on the time it would take to do so, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that Saruman could have done so too.
"If I had this thing you would know, for you would bow down and call me Master."-Saruman to the WitchKing
He was supposed to master the Ring and even so.. the Ringwraiths would be no danger for the forces of Mordor or the Elves / Alliance (Glorfindel alone would scary them). Saruman's army is less in number. He would be overcome
As I said in a post:
Sauron can be defeated the way that Morgoth was defeated.
Saruman could only 1) destroy the ring, or 2) to bring Sauron to Aman to be judged.
But since Saruman became evil, he couldn't go for any of these 2 options = He can never win! Sauron would come back in thousands of years with another plan as well. Sauron's soul would be always in Arda, waiting for right moment
Gandalf was also stated explicitly to have the power to destroy Saurons soul in a 1vs1 no doubt Saruman had the same abilities. Sauron during the hobbit was defeated do to Saruman and his machinations Gandalf is clear on this. Saruman with the ring would no doubt have similar success.
@@TheDixieBassMan
THE ONLY SOLUTION IS WRITTEN EXACTLY ON THE BOOK. Explanation:
1) Istari and Glorfindel were not allowed to use their full power
2) 1 vs 1 was impossible, because of first point mentioned. And the aggressor has to kill all Mordor's army alone before meet Sauron.
3) Sauron, as Melkor, was not inclined to fight, because his eventual defeat means that his spirit could fly back to Mandos, to be judged and this was not even an option.
4) the ring has his own power. It is a device and it will always put an influence (big or small) on who wears it, changing the original nature of the individual
@@tonyusa5509 Tolkien's letters are canon and he said clearly that Sauron could be vanquished by Gandalf.
4:36 That uruk-Hai dual wielding swords is an absolute Chad!
Saruman of Many Colors - the “what if” videos are a lot of fun.
Saurman of Many Colors
Could Saruman have defeated Galdalf the White? Given that the reborn Gandalf became the What probably by Valar or Eru's intervention?
one on One, No as we saw when Gandalf came to Isenguard post Helms deep and broke Saruman's spell over of words over his company and then the staff of Saruman.
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD If it was Iluvitar who arranged for Gandalf's return, I think the fix was in. Gods of that kind of power do not mess around. they make sure. like having Gollum conveniently placed where he could use Frodo's finger for a Coney Island hot dog and then, while he was doing the Happy Hop, go over the edge. I can just hear the poor bastard "I worked and slaved for 3 volumes of over 240 pages each and then THIS crap happens: bonuvaSITCH!!!" and Sam says'"What an ingrate Master Frodo: He didn't say 'AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!'. Poor show, Gollum". Frodo turns to Sam and says "Just shut your mouth: I was supposed ot be the Hero in all of this" and pushes Sam over the edge and says "That fixes THAT, now, theyll have to believe my story about how Sam died bravely, giving me a chance to push Gollum off the edge and throw the Preci...erm...Ring in after them" and puts a gold shiny objet in his pocket "Eat your heart out Sauron cuz I'm comin' for YOU. And while we're at it; Galadriel, Do you REALLY want to spend your life with a broken down old elf when you can have the ruler of the upcoming 4th Age universe?". Don't miss out next thrall-packed episode "Shire-ly You're Joking or Old Hobbits Die Hard" and DON'T CALL ME "SHIRE-LY"
@@SpacePatrollerLaser Yes Iluvitar set up Gandalf to return and allowed him greater power to overthrow Saruman and contest Sauron more directly.
Your other part though well I am lost on it. If you mean He set up the final moments of Gollum then Yes as well.
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD That is what I meant. The rest was an amalgam of the video that showed that Sam was the real hero and the April 1 video about the Eagle taking the Ring for himself and as manycheap jokes as I could get, which, to quote Tolkien "The tale grew in the telling"
@@SpacePatrollerLaser Oh now it is clear, I love them April 1st videos.
Such a good channel 👍🏻👍🏻
Thank you!!
Loved this. What do you think would happen if Gandalf DIDNT come back after he fell with the Balrog?
Saruman the many coloured. Saruman is one if my favourite characters and if love to see a full video on his life.
Been watching the what if scenarios from the get go, keep up the good work 👍🏻
More what ifs for sure!!
Saruman of Many Colors
Thanks mate. I enjoy your what if videos
Saruman of many colours
Keep the what ifs coming!
Any chance of a "what if saruman helped the fellowship " never seen one.
Love your channel keep up the good work.
I love you Alt history vids. Keep ‘em coming if you can! Ever done anything over The Wheel of Time? My favorite fantasy story ever!
Saruman of many colors that would be great video
And the production of Saruman consist on breeds between people, plus the usage of wood as a resource to craft and build..... the rate of building speed would’ve increased but not enought to yet beat Sauron, in that I agree
The one thing that seems really off to me is Gandalf's attack at Helm's Deep. If the forces of Rohan were already defeated and the orcs took the fortress, Gandalf and the Rohirrim wouldn't attack it. Cavalry is strong on an open battlefield, but it phisically can't assault a fort. It just can't. For that you need infantry, ladders, rams and other siege equipment. No capable commander would even think of assaulting a frotress with cavalry. And both Gandalf and Eomer were more than capable commanders. It wouldn't be so simple for Saruman to kill Gandalf. I think they would retreat to Edoras or to Gondor, or do literally anything else but attack Helm's Deep.
Another factor could be if the Elves picked a side. They would probably just let the two beat the snot out of each other, however.
I enjoyed your approach and imagination towards the characters. Very Cool 😎
Saruman of Many Colors. Please make a video about him
'Order at all costs'? Sounds like Sauron's belief...
These types of videos are a lot of fun. Saruman of many colors, I think Gandalf would not have fallen in battle not only with his new powers as the white he also possesses an elvish ring of power. Even if those factors did not save him, he would have been sent back yet again possibly with even more power to take Saruman out.
If you haven't done it yet can you do a what if gallum survived?
Saruman of Many Colors, please.
Unwind your what-if a bit... how would a situation arise where Saruman could win?
If the Uruk-hai had missed the Company at Parth Galen, then: Boromir still lives, Merry & Pippin never show up to rouse the Ents, the Three Hunters never speed their way across Rohan & encounter Eomer... Not sure where Gandalf shows up.
Theoden doesn't awake. Helm's Deep taken handily. Erkenbrand stranded behind enemy lines. How does the Grey Company make it thru? Can Aragorn make it to the Paths of the Dead? Without the muster of Rohan, what likely shows up at dawn on the Pelennor Fields is Saruman's army. Minas Tirith falls & the Witch King doesn't (unless by Saruman's hand).
However, there's a distinct possibility that Sauron interprets Saruman's march as a sign Saruman has the One Ring. This serves the same function as the March of the King... distracting Sauron & keeping the Nazgul occupied (perhaps Saruman breaks thru & takes Minas Tirith anticipating Sauron's reinforcements) while Frodo & Sam & Gollum reach Mount Doom. Ring still destroyed, but at a far greater cost.
Interesting loose-ends in this scenario...
(This also leaves room for the Valar influencing things to cause the Uruk-hai to find the Company...)
Saruman of many colors!!!
I like these 'what if' videos so keep it up 😅 also, if it is from an event that's only mentioned in the books or Silmarillion.
And ofcourse 😜
Saruman of Many Colours
Saruman of Many Colors
Saruman of Many Colors.
I really hope someone sees this! Please haha im just so curious! When Gandalf and the Fellowship are heading towards Moria and the Carahdras pass, where exactly did Sauron and Sarumon think they were headed? If they didn't think they would try to destroy the ring, why wouldn't Sauron just send an army to take it from 9 walkers? Anyone's info would be lovely!! Thank you
Why did Saruman not take direct control of Rohan at any point? In Theoden's time he more or less had control through the King's mind and the influence of Grima but it seems like he could have subverted the entire kingdom and installed himself as the literal ruler. Saruman being immortal could have done this at any point. First work on killing off the ruling elite of Rohan which would create political instability through accidents and assasinations. Using the power of his voice, he could then convince the Rohirrim that he should serve as interim ruler to end the instability and strengthen Rohan's position against the coming storm from Mordor. Given that he was able to sway the literal Witch-king with that voice, I don't think he'd have much trouble convincing the Rohirrim that as an immortal and wise Wizard he could do a lot to improve their nation if they were to accept his rule. Now this is going to tick off Lothlorien, Rivendell and Gandalf as it would be seen as a betrayal of the mission given to the Istari who were merely meant to guide and not rule over men. Saruman could though make a legit point that Rohan alone would be too weak without his 'interim' rule to hold back Mordor and if that were the case then the Elves would be next to suffer the blows of Mordor and all of the West with unknowable results. I think that would be enough to placate Elrond and Galadriel but probably not Gandalf but there would be very little he alone could do.
Now there are a number of advantages for Saruman here:
1) He can spend potentially decades building Rohan and more specifically brain-washing the nation at large into accepting him as a pseudo-God King.
2) He can recruit many human spies and search the West for the Ring rather than sending out shady half orc spies of dubious effectiveness.
3) He can use his crafting skills writ large on Rohan and have better results since humans are continually depicted as being more creative and more effective engineers than orcs.
4) He can build solid alliances with Gondor, leaving both it and Rohan better prepared to contain an attack from Mordor.
5) He can also avoid having to fight the Ents or the need to bother with creating an orc army or having any kind of alliance with Mordor.
6) He would have a much more effective military in Rohan with heavy cavalry basically unmatched by Mordor can produce bar the Mumakil which seem limited in number.
Saruman would at worst appear as a tyrant but in no way close to the threat of Sauron. His open control of Rohan-a human kingdom-would avoid the absolute evil of consorting with Orcs and specifically tying himself to Mordor. There would also be no military expansionism save only to perhaps push the hosts of Mordor out of Southern Mirkwood and Dol Guldur permanently. So, Saruman would remain an 'ally' of the wise albeit viewed as an extremist and only accepted with a grudging tolerance given the approaching war with Mordor. That being said, if the 'Wise' discovered his covert desire to possess the One ring for himself then everything might change and we might see the Elves marching to depose Saruman who would then send his Rohirrim Cavalry to fight them. Men vs Elves whilst Sauron would sit off to the side waiting to pick off the weakened winners of such a struggle. Not a great result.
The other scenario could see Saruman actually acquire the One Ring probably prompting Sauron to send his main armies immediately into Rohan instead of attacking Gondor. So, we may end with an interesting scenario where Gondor rides north to send aid to Rohan backed up by Elvish armies coming from the North and West, whilst Saruman works desperately to master control of the One Ring before he gets overrum by Mordor's armies or gets taken out by the Elves, who would undoubtably turn on him to recover the ring if they defeat Sauron's onslaught.
Saruman of many colors :)
Saruman of many colors 😊
What if instead of revealing his treachery to Gandalf saruman had chosen to help Gandalf and the white council? How would things have gone?
All things happened as they were intended in the Music of the Ainur. Saruman could no sooner change his fate than Sauron could.
Saruman of Many Colours.
Saruman of Many Colours
What if frodo didn't take the ring to mordor? What if Gandalf and a saruman swapped roles? What if the they took the gap ofRohan?
What if tree beard was the ring bearer?
One comment, fire arrows are not really viable. If you lit an arrow on fire and shoot it, the fire will simply be put out by the air.
I love the 'what if' scenarios, but because my concept of Saruman is one of craft and machinations and industry, and because of his complete disdain for nature and for Radagast in particular, I have a difficult time contemplating him taking the Ents into account in any significant way.
If Saruman had found the Ring? Why would it be any different from Gollum, BIlbo, Frodo etc? Gandalf describes what would become of him if he took the Ring, when Frodo offered he Ring to him.
Tolkien stated Gandalf could have mastered the ring given enough time. I'd assume the same for Saruman.
My question is why would the ring affect the wizards as they are also style of beings?
Even if they are not allowed to use their full power that doesn't mean that they are diminished in spirit.
It feels like it is a convenient plothole.
Melkor was an overwhelming power that corrupted Sauron; taking that into consideration you would need the same amount of power to tame the other wizards.
Not all maia are of equal power. Sauron was one of the most powerful maia, if not the most powerful.
Saruman Of Many Colors i want the full video
my dog eats carrots...but only when Im not looking, unless frozen.
what does it mean? is self conscious?
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but having taken Gandalf out at Helms Deep, would he have not had Gandalf's ring and with the One ring even more powerful?
The thing is, I don't think Gandalf would be killed at Helm's Deep. That's one part of the story that doesn't make sense at all. If the orcs already took the fortress and killed everyone inside, no capable commander would attempt to take it back with cavalry. Gandalf would retreat to Gondor, probably. Or do literally anything but assault Helm's Deep.
What if saruman and Gandalf swapped roles would Gandalf Still remain good in isengard? Would saruman still be currupted
What if numenor declared war on the elves of middle earth before the fall?
ive never understood why after his defeat saruman didnt just rejoin the free peoples, he thinks they have a tiny tiny chance of winning but surely a tiny tiny chance of being on the winning side is better than dying, not to mention with his help the free peoples stand a far better chance, not to mention what was stopping the free peoples from breeding their own uruk hai? Saruman proved you can grow them and they arent loyal to souron so why not Gandalf grow some for the sole purpose of protecting people? you would have a strong force of creatures whose sole purpose is war
I think pride has to be one of the biggest factors he would never go back!
Could carumo at full strength beat sauron?
All the other beings of a higher order as well as Galadriel, Gandalf and others would have stepped in and destroyed him. Not too big of a threat if you think about it.
I have question for someone on here, Why does Saruman's Staff mimic the look of the tower of orthanc? Because the tower was there long before Saruman resided there so did he alter his staff to look like the tower or was it just a coincidence?
Just in the movies were they similar, in the book Orthanc was a pinnacle of an impenetrable black rock that did not look as if it had been made with hands. The walls of Minas Tirith were made of the same black rock and only the gate was vulnerable to attack. The huge Argonath statues were made of the same black cement.
I'd like to see, what if Boromir took the ring from Frodo? I don't think anyone's done that yet
I've seen some vod on it somewhere; Boromir would kill Frodo, but the rest of the fellowship would not know until it's way too late. Boromir would return to Minas Tirith avoiding confrontation with the fellowship at Amon Hen probably. He'd show the One Ring to Denethor who approves of the deed. Boromir would continue to lead the forces of Gondor and gradually be ruler in all but name. As mentioned in the book, he'd send out alliance offers and mustering calls to all free peoples he'd know to get as big an army as possible to challenge Mordor. Perhaps he'd be tempted to kill his father at some point due to the whispers of the Ring.
The Fellowship, would probably go to Minas Tirith after finding Frodo's body eventually as they'd have nowhere else to go. They need to get the Ring back, or the free world would fall after all. Boromir would hope he could persuade some of the fellowship to join his cause as they would be useful, but after noticing they cannot be corrupted, he'd probably end up killing them as they first plead to see reason and then refuse his offers to join him. In Minas Tirith while having the One Ring, the remaining fellowship members would stand no chance.
Even if Boromir would summon an army big enough to stand a chance against Mordor which is extremely unlikely, the One Ring would probably betray him in battle, killing him the same way Isildur died, making Sauron the ruler of Middle Earth afterwards.
@@FCGroningen1987 nice take, I can see it playing out that way, maybe Aragorn trying to avenge Frodo and still save the quest. Freaking ring knows how to find your weakness.
@@Batkoku I don't think Boromir would let his guard down around Aragorn anymore considering he'd be his main rival for rulership of Gondor. While corrupted with power, he'd not tolerate a rival.
I find it more likely that Faramir would "do the right thing", eliminating his brother to try and save the world.
@@FCGroningen1987 I dig Faramir, and how in the books, he says he wouldn't take it if he found it on the ground. He'd probably be the last hope in this scenario.
I think Saruman would have won because the Nazgul would be in his service, and likely some of the Nazgul's troops by extension, not Sauron's had he found the one ring. Furthermore, Saruman's ability to build and grow an army in a short amount of time would have been increased by his possession of the one ring. As such, I don't foresee a direct confrontation between Saruman and Sauron even happening, though if it did I am unsure who would have won. I think it would resemble Tolkien's statement on Gandalf's hypothetical confrontation with Sauron had he gained the one ring: superior strength on one side, but the ring's true loyalty on the other.
Treacherous though he was, he was still my servant and defeating Rohan would have been of great aid in my war against Gondor.
Stop roleplaying in UA-cam comment sections you nerd.
Very insightful Lord
He reminds me of an apprentice I once had.
What about what morgoth would have wanted being that he was your master sauron
@@jackdelamotte8737 Morgoth was overly touchy with Sauron
Saruman of Many Colors
Saruman of many colours
By the time Saruman could have discovered about Frodo being the ring bearer and that he had split from the Fellowship quite some time ago, Frodo and Sam would have reached Ithilien. Saruman's aerial spies might have been able to find them but even if they did, how is Saruman going to get people there to capture Frodo in time? Ithilien was full of forces from Mordor as well as the Ithilien Rangers, neither of whom would look kindly on Saruman's people. No, I think it far, far more likely Frodo and Sam end up being captured on their way into Mordor or as they attempt to reach Mount Doom. At that point, Sauron has the One Ring and it's game over.
I'm also very dubious a bunch of Uruk-hai would actually be able to defeat and kill Gandalf plus I don't think you accounted for the presence of the Huorns at Helm's Deep. I think Saruman's Uruk-Hai are in the end defeated there and sooner or later Gandalf and Saruman have their confrontation at Isengard with Gandalf breaking Saruman's staff and power as happened in the book.
This entire "What If" scenario only becomes plausible if Saruman's Uruk-hai capture Frodo, at Amon Hen, in addition to Merry and Pippin. And even then, his Uruk-hai would have to evade the Rohirrim, at the Fringe of Fangorn, where in the book they are brutally slaughtered while resting. This is the only manner in which Isengard could gain possession of the One Ring. But it matters not. Sauron would inevitably come for Saruman (and the Ring), and the Ring would ultimately betray Saruman, because it yearns to get back to Sauron's hand.
@@jacob4920 I agree that was the only time he had a real chance at getting the One. After that the only chance would have been if Saruman himself had gone to try and find Frodo and that wasn't in the cards. But I have read within the past few months that there were a few beings in Middle-Earth that could have mastered the One themselves and it would no longer seek to return to Sauron. How long that might take I have no idea but it does leave open the possibility that Saruman could master the One himself.
I envision an army of uruks armed with muskets and cannons. That would be kinda fitting if he had time to prepare for an assault on mordor after winning his local wars and securing a powerbase.
Makes sense as Saruman had invented gunpowder. Given enough time, he may well have invented gunpowder weapons. Such early weapons would basically have rendered older artillery, bows and crossbows obsolete. Melee weapons and plate armor made from good enough tempered steel would remain in use for a few more decades, until gunpowder weapons had advanced enough to render most all other medieval era weapons and defenses obsolete, much like what happened in real life.
I like the idea!!
These videos are much higher quality than the viewership suggests. I don't know how you people can make a living on this but it's impressive.
Thank you!! I really appreciate that! I do my best :)
@@zStC1 that only heightens my point. They put a lot of effort in those too but receive little to no viewership. What I recall is that they are provided even less from those.
These "what if" scenarios are awesome! And incredible way to brainstorm.
"He really did not come close to completing his given task"
This isn't 100% accurate. He didn't remain true to his mission, but Gandalf implies that his treason and opposition to Mordor were an impediment to Sauron. The actions of the Uruk-hai inadvertently interfered with Sauron's orcs' attempts to capture it, and the victory at Helm's Deep galvanized Rohan and positioned them to arrive at Minas Tirith at the right time. If Saruman had been honest early on and shared what he learned of the fate of the Ring, things might have gone better earlier on, but his actions did indirectly contribute to the fall of Sauron. Maybe, like Melkor's attempts to disrupt the Ainulindalë, Saruman was in some way unable to disrupt the ultimate will of Eru, regardless of his specific actions and choices.
His task was to aid the Free Peoples. That he did so inadvertently because of his own evil designs is hardly what he was tasked to do. Had he held true to the task he was given, he would have eagerly helped figure out how best to destroy the ring once Gandalf figured out what it was. Indeed, that the ring was the One might have been figured out many years earlier when Sauron wasn't as strong.
@@istari0 no saruman had it right because he betrayed the valinor who have been ignoring the evils of middle earth both with sauron and melkor and taking away chances from sauron as well
I disagree. His war on Rohan actually DELAYED the Rohirim from answering Gondor's call, and also weakened them. King Theodin knew what was going on and knew the call to arms was coming from Gondor soon, and would have still mustered the Rohirim once his scouts or diplomats in Minas Tirith reported the time had come. The difference is the Rohirim would not have been drawn off to the West, AWAY from the main threat of Mordor, and would not have been too busy fighting an existential threat of their own to be preparing to defend Gondor as effectively as they'd have liked. They also would not have lost the heir to their throne, would not have lost so many soldiers to the war with Isengard, and would have thus had better leadership and greater numbers to muster. King Theordin would also not have been distracted by a treacherous Grimmer - who may have remained loyal to Rohan in the absence of Saruman's temptations. I don't think Sauron would have known enough about local Rohirim politics to have known he could make an asset of Grimmer like Saruman did.
Also, if Saruman had remained loyal to the West, he'd have also been able and willing to send the forces of Isengard to the aide of Gondor, so not only would the Rohirim be able to arrive in greater strength, but would likely have been part of a joint force of Rohan AND Isengard. Isengard may also have been able to send a secondary force to assist the elves of Lothlorien against Dul Goldor and Moria. This could have led to a faster defeat of those 2 strongholds of Mordor, freeing up his and Lothorien's armies to either move north to aide Erabor and Dale, or move east to join forces with Gondor, Isengard, the Gray Company and Rohan at The Black Gates. This would also have freed up the Woodland Realm Elves to aide their allies in Erabor and Dale against the northern invasion force much sooner, possibly forcing the sieging Easterlin army to retrat and lift the siege of Erabor, freeing up Dale and Erabor to join them and press the retreating Mordor army further east,
So no, Saruman's trechery weakened and slowed the response of the West to the point it almost cost them the War of the Ring. A loyal Saron would also have meant the Gap of Rohan would have been open to the Fellowship, which would have hastened their passage east, and they would likely have arrived on the borders of Mordor with the Ringbearer sooner then in the cannon timeline.
However, this would also likely mean Durin's Bane would NOT be slain by Gandulf, Gandolf would not be returned stronger as Gandulf the Whine, but that last part would not be needed as Saruman the White is true to his allies so he's still filling the role of White Wizard. Also, Radigast would likely not be distracted on some fool's errands but made aware his help will be needed, and he may well have been up north, aiding the Elves of Mirkwood or the dwarves and men of Erabor and Dale. The Fellowship would also likely not have met Galadriel in Lothlorien so would not have her gifts. Though a loyal Saruman may councel them to detour there, advising it would be crucial to their quest to seek her council, so that meeting may still have happened anyways.
The Balfog still being alive may have meant he would have attacked Lothlorien directly though, but that may have drawn Saruman from Isengard to face the Balrog himself, making Saruman the hero who slays Durin's Bane.
Still, I think in this alternate timeline, things overall do go smoother for the Men of the West.
Saruman of Many Colors
(Would love more in depth videos on him and also Denethor II)
I enjoyed this video, but I had a thought that requires a jumping off and differing enough that I can not place a time stamp. Essentially this is my own "what if".
I start with the breaking of the Felliwship. Frodo crosses the Anduin and disappears, while Saruman's forces capture Frodo and Pippin. Early on there is a three way conflict in which Sauron's orcs and the Orcs of Moria are destroyed by Saruman's forces. The remaing travel at a higher speed, and Eomer misses them as they bypass Fanghorn completely.
Eomer, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are quietly imprisoned and later executed on Grima's order. However, because if these events, Frodo and Sam successfully encounter Gollum who leads them close enough to Mordor to protect them from Saruman.
Grima now quietly finishes off Theoden and Eowyn becomes the Queen. Though she hates Grima, Saruman's friendship is even more critical because of the turmoil so much strife has caused and Eowyn is forced to retain him as an act of "friendship".
Saruman uses his voice to break the resistance of Merry and Pippin and they join his side in the war to come. Saruman gives up trying to gain the Ring, but is now focused on keeping Sauron from attaining it. Gondor sends to Rohan for aid, and with the entire might of both Isengard and Rohan, neither force at all depleted at Helm's Deep, they easily crush the armies of Mordor at Pelenor and the destroy the Corsairs who have launched to reinforce the Witch-king.
In the meantime, the madness of Denethor has been prevented through contact with messengers from Saruman, Faramir is kept safe by Gandalf who has come warning against the aid of Saruman, but Denethor is desperate and refuses all counsel.
At the Battle of the Pelenor Fields, Merry and Pippin save Eowyn and slay the Witch-King, but die from their injuries. A political marriage unites the realms of Gondor and Rohan under one monarchy as Saruman quietly arranges the transition of power and makes Faramir the king of both Arnor and Gondor.
Saruman and Gandalf now lead the effort to destroy Sauron, as Gandalf is left with no choice but to support the wizard he fears is nothing more than a new Dark Lord in the making. The final Battle of the war plays out almost exactly as it does in the original and Sauron is destroyed, and all the other rings of power lose their potency.
Saruman returns to his tower at Orthanc with his remaining forces and grows in power as he makes war with the orcs of Moria and the Misty Mountains, Mt. Gundabad, and Moria, as well as the Elves of Mirkwood and Lothloien, before moving against Dale, Erebor, Rivendell, the Shire, and at last the Grey Havens.
During this time, he quietly ventures into Moria and Mordor and gathers the remaining knowledge to craft his iwn ring of power. Now with all his potential enemies destroyed or neutralized, he dawns his Ring and proceeds to cement his rule of Middle Earth in a manner similar to his accusations against Gandalf in their final confrontation in Two Towers.
Interesting topic.
Although I have to respectfully disagree on some points.
If helms deep had fallen and Isengard was heavily fortified, the ents and Gandalf wouldn’t have attacked with reinforcements. Although the future would indeed look grim for the fellowship.
If Saruman gained the ring I doubt Sauron would have attacked him head on. He would lose if he did.
Sauron was severely weakened by not only losing the ring but also losing his original body by Eru.
The ring would have tipped the balance of power in Sarumans favour, at least in the short term.
Sauron was a lousy fighter. His powers where of control, domination, Manipulation and craft.
He could bend a whole world to his knees but really wasn’t that prolific in war. In particular duels.
Much more likely Sauron would hide and wait for the ring to slowly eat away at Saruman.
It was made of Saurons soul and had allegiance only to him. Give enough time and it would slowly but surely sabotage even a very powerful Maia like Saruman.
As for Saruman hiding the ring from Sauron it wasn’t really possible unless he just didn’t use it. In which case he would lose the initiative.
I’d love to hear your guys thoughts!
These are good points - both Gandalf and Galadriel admit that the ring would, eventually, corrupt them and (In Gandalf's case) push them into Sauron's service. Perhaps Saruman would know that, and swiftly strike at Sauron in order to defeat Sauron before the ring could wear him down.
I agree. If one of the great, like Saruman, possesses the ring of power, they will become a match for Sauron. He put so much of his own native power into the ring that it "levels up" anyone with the will power to wield and control it. That's why Sauron is terrified when he thinks that Aragorn has the ring. It levels the playing field, even if the outcome is not guaranteed. And surely Saruman, of the house of Aule the smith, wise in ring lore, having crafted hid own ring of power already, would learn how to use the one ring as well as Gandalf or one of the elven lords, if not better?
One of my favourite channels on UA-cam is Alternate History Hub, which takes real life events and questions what would have happened if things had gone differently, so I enjoy listening to the What If videos for Lord of the Rings too. There's never a 'right' answer, but when you know the cannon (or real life) facts well enough, you can build really intriguing and realistic What Ifs. I always enjoy these videos you make.
Well said!! I was trying to say the same thing. You nailed it.
I watch that too.
Love how cody does his videos
There's no battle required; Saruman would gradually succumb to the Ring's influence, and in so doing Sauron would still rule through him. He could have immediate mastery over it and a million Uruk-Hai at his command and Sauron would still win simply because the Ring survives.
Saruman of many colours
Saruman of Many Colors
(Yes, more, please)
Saruman of many colors
Wouldn't it be possible that if Saruman gets the One Ring and wears it, he'd just end up being corrupted by Sauron and becoming his puppet without realizing it? The influence of the ring is powerful and even though Saruman is too, he could end up manipulated into just doing all the things that Sauron wants for reasons he rationalizes to himself until eventually his will and Sauron's are indistinguishable?
This probably would be the most likely outcome. By the time of the war of the Ring, Saruman was already remotely controlled through the Palantir. Now add the One.
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First
saruman of many colors
I think too much of sarons power is in the ring. How would sauron who cant even hold a physical form for long anymore overpower sarumon who is now empowered with sauron's strength. If sauron had that much strength left he couldve just won without the ring. Unless he only wanted it for self preservation.
What if Saruman had somehow managed to convince the Ents and Huorns to be on his side? that at least was what I’ve always thought that was one of his biggest mistake
I think Saruman's best outcome was that Merry and Pippin never made it to Fangorn, then there would be no rising of the Ents, and no attack on Isengard. Victory at Helms Deep was always more likely than the actual outcome. From then on, with Rohan defeated, he could concentrate on building up his forces, and wait. By doing nothing, the ring would be destroyed, Sauron would fall, but Saruman would remain with a powerful army, ready to pick up the leadership of the remnants of the forces of Mordor. Gondor without Rohan, or the army of the dead would have been destroyed on the field. Victory would have been handed to Saruman by Frodo and Sam, though they wouldn't know it as they would have perished at Mt Doom.
Maybe not.
With Gondor destroyed, there would be no army marching to the Black Gate, hence the road to Orodruin would likely be filled with Orcs, for they would have no "bite" to fight against at the northern border ; and eventually chances for Frodo and Sam to pass unseen would shrink close to zero, making it highly more likely they are captures, searched and killed and whatever is found on them is sent ti Barad-Dur (as was the mithril mail taken to Frodo in Cirith Ungol...)
For Saruman to succed, he would need to follow the same strategy as Aragorn and Gandalf: confront Sauron at the Black Gate or wherever far from Mount Doom to sway his attention and have the One destroyed. He'd be less powerful, but with no evil power strong enough to beat him he'd rule Middle Earth nonetheless.
But to do so, he'd need to know where the One is heading and for what purpose, hence he needs at least Merry and Pippin to reach Isengard...
This means Saruman being smart for a while - and his actions for the last couple of days were more "panic mode" then being smart.
I would love to see what if tree beard killed saruman, found the one ring, and found the entwives. I'd even just be fine with what if treebeard did not lose the entwives.
What-if video idea for you to do:
What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
Sarumanycolor
Yes these are my favorite kinds of videos! Would love more in the future. Thanks for all the thought that went into this one
Second! Also, cracking topic for a Bank holiday Monday :)
It's "Choose Your Own Adventure", featuring Saruman!
The only way Saruman wins if he defeats the army’s of Sauron then cast the ring in the fire. Then he would be a formidable force and not have to worry about Sauron. Thus he could rule.
Third 😎
I think Gandalf rightfully said that Saruman only had a chance against Sauron if he found the One Ring.
I don't think Saruman had any actual chance of getting the One Ring due to the timeline of events though. He'd be fully pre occupied with the battle for Helms Deep for quite some time. By the time he'd be done, Frodo and Sam were already either in Ithilien or even much further (around Minas Morgul or Cirith Ungol). Even if Frodo was stuck in Emyn Muil or the Dead Marches, I don't see how Saruman could have first send hordes of crows and then forces to retrieve the ring on the east bank of the Anduin. Sauron would have multiple armies in the field as well; 1 occupying Minas Tirith and 1 crossing Cair Andros into Anorien. The all seeing eye would have seen it at least.
I think there is a technical alternative if Saruman would get his hands on the One Ring. I think he'd offer himself as the only alternative to Sauron to the remaining people in Middle Earth. Considering how bad Sauron would be and the fact that Saruman had a history with the remaining free peoples, it's not impossible I think. Also consider he'd have power over the bearers of the Three and that the One Ring would boost his existing powers, of which his speech was apparantly the most powerful one. With the One Ring, his speech etc. I think most of the remaining free peoples would reluctantly side with Saruman. How the battle would go afterwards would be a mystery.
I think it would ultimately come down to how the ring interacts with Saruman's voice, his greatest power. It could amplify it to the point that truly none could contend with the will of Saruman, perhaps even the ring itself would be persuaded. Very interesting indeed, love Saruman and his fighting Uruk Hai
What if videos are great! Keep up the great work! 👍
Thank you!
Hi broken sword I'm posting a video on why frodo had to leave to shire on December 4th could you watch it and give me your thoughts? Idk maybe you'll disagree with me and have a different opinion and that's cool
Saruman of Many Colours.
Up
This is really cool. One thing I miss though, is the free flowing conversations you guys had in the old channel. Like about what if Boromir had lived
Saruman of many colours.
Saruman of many colours
Nice! Always like when the videos take up more time!! Thanks for another awesome video!
Thank you! I love making longer ones, i find I get lost in them more :)