Hi there! I’ve 10 years experience in both the UK and AUS - I used to be a staffed climber and crew leader, which overall was great… However after years of trying to get a fair wage for my experience and expecting reasonable working hours I gave up. Now I’m a contractor. I’m paid well and my days/weeks aren’t so long that I’m not crippled at the end of the week! My personal experience is that most companies who hire full time staff pay as little as possible and expect very long days. Life is too short for that!
Totally right friend. Overall the business should just pay more. I'm a contractor as well and doing fine. In Holland. But the difference between a staffed Treeworker and a contractor is just ridiculous and still treework as a contractor pays less then an average electricien contractor. Look at all the risks we're taking dude. I noticed especially guys that start families get out of the business. So that should tell you all you need to know. Apparently the risk is not worth the effort. Or just being crippled at the end of the week like you said. The work is an expertise and should pay as such so one can take their time and be a pro about it. We're too passionate i guess and somehow allow ourselves to be pushed constantly in making numbers. One can take that for longer with good pay and less stress.
Hi, I’m a subby in the midlands UK and do quite well, I’ve never earned so much money but also never been so skint! I’ve just signed a contract for a company in Australia as a team leader/climber and hopefully will be heading out with my family soon. I’ll be taking a pay cut and I guess won’t be getting any early finishes over there but with your experience do you think I am making a good choice?
Quite simply no one can live off the wage. Employers in Melbourne seem to think that paying people as little as possible is enough to get by. Most people on a tree industry wage live week to week and most would be barely keeping their head above water being able to do not much else throughout the years. Look at so many other trades why the fuck would anyone stick around when you can live a lot more comfortably doing something else? Financial stress of employees is the real elephant in the room that no one talks about for employees in the industry. The industry deserves to be where it is now, if we want to remedy the situation change has to happen. It’s the age old saying that can apply anywhere, Pay peanuts get monkeys
Undervalued and under appreciated as tradespeople. I’ve been doing tree work for 6 years on and off. Have all my own gear, insurance, climbed, ran buckets, skidsteers, whatever. could do huge side jobs. became extremely proficient at my company and was basically capped at 35. Started an apprenticeship with no experience doing carpentry for the same rate starting with way more room to grow and to learn a much more applicable skill to navigating the economy, seemed like a no brainer. Still miss flopping tops though and dealing with live wood. Yeah i wanna learn to build a house but it isnt nearly as fun. Wish it paid more
The perfect video for me...though I have experience in tree work I'm just putting myself through climbing tickets to get serious...😎 Keep up the good work 👏
Very hard to find staff, especially skilled staff. Many factors are at play: Structure: Several factors inherent to the industry discourage newcomers and make retention challenging. Most employees want stability and good wages. The seasonality of the industry means that the flow of work is inherently unpredictable and inconsistent. Most staff get laid off in the winter and hours will typically be reduced at the start and end of each season. Days are long (its wasteful and inefficient to pull up stakes 8 hours into a 10-hour job and come back for 2 hours the next day because this duplicates travel and prep costs), which creates challenges for staff in their personal lives. Training: Whether people are green or coming in with experience at other companies, the labour force is woefully lacking in skills. I hired a climber with 6 years of experience from a big local company who didn't know how to use a portawrap. I hired two staff from a large multinational company who had been taught to sharpen each cutter tooth on a chain different amounts--they also had been taught that a 50:1 fuel mix meant 50ml of two-stroke engine oil in one jerry (a 10L jerry, that is). Staff who have completed college programs aren't much better off. I hired one of the top climbers from a local college who couldn't reliably complete a snap cut or install a chain correctly. He went on to another company, where he cut through his climbing line with his chainsaw (didn't have his lanyard in, of course), and fell out of the tree. This state of affairs puts employers in a position where they effectively have to provide tuition-free education to staff, with very little guarantee of a return on that investment, as staff often leave before the training can pay off. Lawyers don't just stroll up to a firm demanding free education; they invest heaps of time and money in their skills before they even walk through the door. That is because law is a mature, organized industry with a well-developed professional association and educational pipeline. Arboriculture has none of that, so it is the norm for employees to stroll up demanding a free education. Underregulation: There are no barriers to entry in arboriculture, meaning there are loads of underqualified hacks pushing down prices; this downward pressure on prices also puts downward pressure on wages. This also means that the incentives for both employees and and employers to improve through training and/or education are basically nil. If your company is spending time and money to train employees and the next company isn't, all things being equal, that puts you at a competitive disadvantage. Likewise, employees have very little incentive to improve their skills, as they are underpaid for the risk and skill level their job requires. This won't change until we pass provincial legislation requiring minimum qualifications to either call yourself an arborist (i.e., a title act) or practice arboriculture (i.e., a right to practice act). Unfortunately, there is very little willingness to do this within the industry. Part of the reason is incumbency bias; lots of established players in the industry benefitted from the lack of regulation and want to preserve a system that works for them. Another reason is a lack of organization. Despite their use of the word "Association," the ISA is more like a social club than a trade association. The ISA likes hosting events and courses, but has no willingness to engage in an ongoing lobbying function, which is a core function of any mature professional/trade association. If you want legislation (and you really should), you need to lobby for it to government.
Damn….Ive owned my own biz for the last 10+ yrs! I live in city and am the climber, owner, accountant…blah! I didn’t get into this for training homework or paperwork on either end! Best damn answer I’ve ever heard! ISA you hit it on the head….the small….big company here hoards all the ISA climbers from the other companies! They pigeonhole them into being with other ISA groupies. But they will not do as they say and get you above a 30,000 dollar salary! The son of the oldest owner doesn’t climb anymore but he decides who gets to compete climb in the state ISA master class competition then he is the main judge as well!
Excellent summary of the industry's main challenges with regard to staffing. I'm in the PNW and I'd say this accurately describes the staffing situation here. I'm wondering what Europe is like for small business owners. I've heard there's more regulation, which puts up more barriers to entry, but makes for a smoother ride business-wise once you get established. Not sure if that's actually the case, but I'd like to know what the industry might look like with more regulation/guidance/etc. This seems to be what a lot of legitimate business owners over here would like to see. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Im just a one man band in Scotland. I have a young lad that had qualifications but hardly any experience. He works 2 days a week for me as a contractor. After leaving and coming back he hasn't gone back to his cousin's company but back to me as its much more relaxed and we are not trying to bash out 3 jobs a day! I share my experience and knowledge and he is learning. I couldn't take on an apprentice as i couldn't afford to train them but a contractor who you can mentor and teach whilst not trying to physically drain them of every drop of energy seems to work for me. Respect both ways is essential yes you might earn more as the boss but you have all the big equipment and it took me 7 years to buy and pay for mist of what i want or need! As a contractor you dont have the debt you need to pay every month, the quotes to arrange and go to, the paperwork, organising everything and then doing the cleaning because everyone has gone home! I love it and i think its a passion that flows through our sap (blood 😁) that keeps us at it. Its a statistically dangerous job and totally brutal on your body. However even if I won the lottery id still do it just maybe not the rubbish jobs. Thanks Dan and keep them coming 😁
My experience in Ireland has been that the industry is mainly comprised of very small businesses all competing for jobs with a few big companies at the top. The result being that unless you're with a big company, the work is harder than neccesary, days long and often a lot of rushing to squeeze in extra jobs at the end of the day..which can make accidents and mistakes more likely. Also a lot of companies have to take on lads and let them go regularly.. Nevermind that you will have to front enough money to pay for all your training, gear, upkeep etc to even get started. In comparison to other trades that is not ideal and could be prohibitivly expenisive for people trying to enter the industry.Theres very few apprenctiships or clear pathways for people here too. Also, there just seems to not be enough money from the customer base to support a thriving industry...People will pay through the nose for a Sparks, but nearly fall over when they hear a quote for a tree..I've always thought we need a union...but we need a functioning industry first I guess. Not tryin to be negative..Love the trade but I can see why theres not many of us.
Here in the uk in the south it’s only in the last few years that wages have begun to increase. Pay and work load are the 2 main reasons for staff turn over. The third being bosses. I’ve been doing this almost 20 years now and hear it time and time again. The only way to make more money is to set up your own company, this in turn increases competition and decreases the pool of workers. When people get paid considerably better, less will leave to set up on there own.
This is the problem isnt it good people work for a company for an average wage then realise there worth and what they could earn if they started up on there own so they do thus increasing the competition and before you know it the next one comes through the door to replace them and then a year later the same thing happens and so it goes on. I’m a climber working for a company here in the south east and see it all the time but it makes me wonder what the industry is gonna look like in ten years time when every man and his dog is having a go!
All Of the comments you say Dan I’ve been in the industry since 1989 there are great companies and garbage mixed with all types there is a huge amount of talent/hate for the industry and the fact that our industry is seen as ignorant from the average person I could talk for hours about this but you have covered it well. Joe from California
In sydney im one of alot of contract ground guys. Seems the way it is and work seems not what it was years ago here. Gets slow then gota pay guys no work. Always good stuff dan thanx
I’ve recently just decided to career change to this industry! Can’t wait to get started. One problem is probably from a older person is the cost and the pay cut to start again really
A thing I think contributes is the cost of all the tickets and gear you need to pay for. It’s a big initial out lay. I have been lucky enough to get in with a large company who have provided me all the gear and tickets and I have no intention of leaving. We’ve just taken on 2 young nippers who are really good and keen. I live on an island so there isn’t much in the way of opportunities so that always helps with retaining staff.
Hi! Myself and my old man been running our own tree surgery for about 10 years now full qualified and both love the industry it’s all we’ve done in our working lives. With employees we tend to over pay just to keep people keen and build moral, but in that case people these days think their shit doesn’t stink! I climb 5-6 days a week I’m paying groundies (mind you 99% of them are not up to standards but are learning) anywhere from $350-$450 AUD a day. It’s rough but I guess that’s just the industry now! Thanks!
It’s physically demanding work that has a lot of seasonal employment for those who are just starting out. With more seasonal type of work comes less benefits. Other trades that are not as seasonally affected eventually look more attractive.
I got started in this urban industry like 3 years ago? Now I'm a supervisor and crew lead. Most of the issues that we have stem from worker attitude. My boss pays me extremely well, but it's hard to find people who are motivated to work. It's either no drive to work, or an ego that rivals oceans. It's ridiculous. I love my job, I strive to learn more, but it makes coming to work hard when no one else seems to want to be there or take responsibility for their actions.
I've got a couple of friends that have large equipment and a few employees. I work alone, and if the jobs get too large, then i give them the work. I will work a week, then take off and mountain bike in different locations for a week. Its pretty hard to have help with a schedule like that.
Ideally, for the good apples you want to treat them right. Give them opportunities to upscale and mentor new candidates. Ideally, as you said, it's $$$. You want good comradery and positive challenges. As a hiring manager before, I found that the best candidates are the ones that want to learn and progress in the trade. It might be a freshman out of highschool or someone changing careers. You want those people that are self motivated and want to learn and grow. In my experience, I find that new recruits with 0% tend to excel people who are very knowledgeable on the field but are burnout from switch companies so many times. Myself, I changed careers in my 30s. I used to work in the office for over 14 years with a decent pay. Now I'm much happier and enjoying everyday I'm at work. There are definitely wet & cold days. But I will take any wet day on the field than staying in the office for years on end. Cheers
Hello! My name is Jordan and I am the only Arborist with a UA-cam Channel in Bulgaria. The problem is the same here. Only something else is being observed. I get calls all the time from people who want to become Arborists and have companies, but no one wants to do the rest of the work. Only BOSSES ;). Greetings and good health!!
Honestly, Im one of the few that wanted to keep learning this trade after starting out 3 years ago with some buddies. At first, it was just a seasonal gig for me to get a workout and some money out of it lol. Now Im a climber but struggling cause if I want to earn more I have to move north, but wineter comes and the snow slows down work. And I cant afford to have a starting wage in another trade right now. I think this job is for those who are passionate about it. It'snot just a job for us
It was money for me. Underpaid, overbid jobs, but never saw the benefit working for a larger company (started with a D, B, S, or A). Went back to private sector, safety wasn’t a priority and thought I was gonna die there due to negligence amongst the old guard team and new guys that had no experience. Contract climbing is almost 3x as much pay with 1/2 the hours. That’s being said, I’m with a new crew of groundies every so often not knowledgeable with how to run ropes and it’s dangerous (sometimes). Have to find the sweet medium between safety-production-money. This trade will always be there, the machines being made no matter what will have to have an experienced climber flying on a ball, or climbing. If the chance to gain experiences dissipates we will have problems. Every kid climbs trees.
Im a contractor but i schedule mywelf like im an employee. Work for the same two companies every week, with room for the occasional third. So i know the teams well and their processes. Was the truck driver for a while too so i was usually the first on the job and the last to leave. To me this is the ideal arrangement but i can see it not working for everyone.
I work with contractors only. Like it cos shorta days n im not gettin younger. I am a contract groundy own gear . But after years with bigger companys i like it lot more.
There’s no school for arborist here in San Diego county or riverside county where I live. You have to get with a company to learn, nobody has the time to earn $18 for a year or two while you wait to get trained. Also there’s people that charge dirt cheap to climb and trim. So I’m assuming people look elsewhere for a job.
It doesn't pay enough - it can destroy your body - newbies take a long time to train - bosses get frustrated because the job is taking too long. Younger people aren't as willing to be as uncomfortable as people were before. I came and left the Industry as the pay just wasn't there.
I worked as a Commercial Diver (hard hat diver not scuba) before becoming an Arborist and both have turnover and lack of qualified candidates, in particular the climbers. It’s because both are highly specialized fields that are dangerous and technical. In diving the phobia of claustrophobia and working in the dark eliminate most candidates. In climbing you have the heights issue. Both fields require a good knowledge of rigging which can be challenging to some.
1) Lack of a steady job, tree work is sporatic , same guy can drive a truck 5 or 6 days a week with benifits. 2) why risk your life for low wages. 3 ) work conditons suck, its cold & wet or burning hot. 4) its dangerous AF. 5) You watch the owner boss make thousands while You make hourly wage.
If you pay them what they're worth they wont leave. £80 a day for a comapny or £200 a day as a subby. Its a no brainer for a young subby. Im 41 and took a job with the council 5 years ago because I thought about a pension. I was a subby mostly on commercial and utility sector. Working for the council completely destroyed my love of the job, and I wish I had kept contracting. Hence, im not young or fit enough to return to it.
Yes! It is very hard to find help. Less and less people want to work outside with their hands. Tree work is physically demanding and dangerous. Also people are expecting a higher wage with benefits . Smaller companies have a hard time meeting dose demands.
I have 7 great employees and 6 of them climb. Treat people well and you will have all the best employees. Everyone else around me is struggling because I have all the good guys😎
Too true look after your workers, train them adequately and respect the training period without yelling and having doubts from the worker, some jobs can be daunting some jobs a lot of us are willing to do but dont get the chance or opportunity.
@@pinoy_arborist Having a team of veterans who are excited to teach others and offer helpful ways to get comfortable is a great environment. I have one guy who has been climbing a little over a year and he is savage now.
Tree work seems a better side gig then anything now a days. So many people in my areas are low balling work. No one cares if your a certified arborist anymore....the lowest buck gets the work.
I was going to say this very thing. I have a small one-man company in fl in the US and i use one or two subcontractors for geound work, usually the same people. Working for yourself is the only way to avoid pressure to work too quickly and make safety compromises. Here in fl it's also the only way to be sure you won't be asked to do industry-prohibited work (unhealthy pruning, topping, removals that could have been salvaged). But for a small company competition is stiff and unqualified companies will happily underbid you. As a result, the work ends up fairly unsteady and is really only useful as a side gig. As for employee sourcing, I've been lucky to have found younger guys who don't need steady work and who are interested in this kind of work. I happily teach them anything they want to learn and I find opportunities to put them in trees if they want to. We work 6 hrs days whenever possible, and we always share brush dragging and cleanup work. For good solid ground guys who do well with rigging-intensive jobs, I usually pay 250 to 300 per day. If they help a bit with the climbing, I pay 325 to 375 per day, and I split all tips 50/50. It's the only way to make sure someone's willing to show up without a steady paycheck.
The rise of the contract climber can be directly tied to the rise of bucket trucks and lifts. It's never been easier to have a tree service that doesn't climb anything. As such you get companies and individuals that specialize in climbing. Even at locations that still have a decent amount of climbing, the really difficult technical stuff is getting done with cranes instead of old school tree skills. I would expect in the next 20 years to see a large decline indusry wide in technical rigging skills as grapple saws and cranes continue to become more integrated in tree work. As for finding employees, it is way easier to find someone with little skills, but lots of interest, and a hobby in a related field (rock climbing, bonsai, collecting house plants, hiking and camping, etc) that likes being outdoors and bringing them up to speed vs finding someone on a short time scale with skills... All of the top tier, really good tree climbers have found somewhere that they are happy at and aren't moving short of major life changes, so looking for someone with skills you're likely getting second tier at best, and likely someone that is trying to make a name for themselves out of the shadow of that lead climber. It leads to a lot of "fake it til you make it" climbers coming around during interviews, also lots of people that are only chasing a dollar and don't have long term loyalty and while they may be good employees, training from within has much better results
Good opinions all around ^^. I would add that I don't think it's quite as simple re lifts etc: Imo the broad proliferation of lifts and similar tech on the part of "big treework" is intentionally to be able to function without skilled climbers. This then has had the effect of rapidly accelerating the deterioration of their (skilled) workforce.
With all the things that I being learning from August hunikie I will paid money just to work around that man! He have the people that he have because he is e great lider, money is important, but when someone like him teach you something every day! That is gold. For people who knows what to do with the information.
My answer is that most wanta just climb. Cos money gear challenge. Good groundys not so many now i rekon. Got great climbers left with backpackers n bit dangerouse.
@@matiascamprubi-soms7719 AB5 law is for all contract work, not just climbing. There are exemptions, might be able to be a independent contractor for a landscaper but need ur own business license and all that jazz. Purpose of the law was to get more people collecting benefits.
@GDCC if you are an estimator for a trade, like me, you will absolutely make more money than a Joyrneyman who works 10 hrs OT every single week, probably starting pay. Some of the foreman make quite good money, but 20 years in a trade at the same company probably isn't worth it. That is just the way it is, office staff generally make more than the tradesman do. Especially if they are Estimator, PM, Inspector etc.
@@jeffshackleford3152that's awesome to hear. I totally see your point. However, on this side of the world (Vancouver, BC) some jobs can pay you $150k without much overtime. Heavy duty mechanics, powerline technicians, welders are some examples. Obviously it depends on the trade and company. Unlike someone going through school and spending thousands to just make minimum wage income, in the trades you can start making a decent coin right off the bat. Again, everything depends on where you are located, what you do, and who you are working for. In general, arboriculture is a very unique ability and there are not many people out there filling those jobs. Therefore, limited availability and increase on demand will make the price for the job jump. This is all based on my experience from Vancouver BC.
I closed down my tree service and went back to driving truck to make a 100k.A year. No. Hassle no insurance no problems. And no downtime where you spend six months waiting for the economy to pick back up
I think many folks don't even realize that it's an exciting option much better than a fast food job, office, truck driver or any of the everyday jobs we see people doing everywhere we go. The rope climbing and zip lining makes it even better. The equipment is crazy expensive to get started though! You need almost 2000 dollars worth of stuff just to try your hand at tree climbing. Getting the opportunity to saw limbs from out over my house in with a bucket truck got me hooked on the subject.😃 There should be some arborist things set up at local fairs that allows the crowd to use a portowrap or something. Just that in itself most folks have zero knowledge of. The idea that you can lower 1500 lbs down with a portowrap is mind boggling!
im a 61 year old 1 man tree service i have one on call 45 year old buddy i trained who never fails to show up. He likes the physical challenge & can spend the money he makes on anything not bills because he doesnt need the money. His wife makes $100,000 a year after taxes. if i need a young expert tree climber i call in the local climber. This is a Biden economy reccesson so work has virtualy stopped. 10:53
I agree, this economy is crap.. I'm in a completely different industry and just come here to get pointers on climbing/ pruning my own trees on my property ( one big silver maple).
Hi there! I’ve 10 years experience in both the UK and AUS - I used to be a staffed climber and crew leader, which overall was great… However after years of trying to get a fair wage for my experience and expecting reasonable working hours I gave up. Now I’m a contractor. I’m paid well and my days/weeks aren’t so long that I’m not crippled at the end of the week!
My personal experience is that most companies who hire full time staff pay as little as possible and expect very long days. Life is too short for that!
Totally right friend. Overall the business should just pay more. I'm a contractor as well and doing fine. In Holland. But the difference between a staffed Treeworker and a contractor is just ridiculous and still treework as a contractor pays less then an average electricien contractor. Look at all the risks we're taking dude.
I noticed especially guys that start families get out of the business. So that should tell you all you need to know. Apparently the risk is not worth the effort. Or just being crippled at the end of the week like you said. The work is an expertise and should pay as such so one can take their time and be a pro about it. We're too passionate i guess and somehow allow ourselves to be pushed constantly in making numbers. One can take that for longer with good pay and less stress.
Hi, I’m a subby in the midlands UK and do quite well, I’ve never earned so much money but also never been so skint! I’ve just signed a contract for a company in Australia as a team leader/climber and hopefully will be heading out with my family soon. I’ll be taking a pay cut and I guess won’t be getting any early finishes over there but with your experience do you think I am making a good choice?
Quite simply no one can live off the wage. Employers in Melbourne seem to think that paying people as little as possible is enough to get by. Most people on a tree industry wage live week to week and most would be barely keeping their head above water being able to do not much else throughout the years.
Look at so many other trades why the fuck would anyone stick around when you can live a lot more comfortably doing something else?
Financial stress of employees is the real elephant in the room that no one talks about for employees in the industry.
The industry deserves to be where it is now, if we want to remedy the situation change has to happen.
It’s the age old saying that can apply anywhere, Pay peanuts get
monkeys
@@richardhollis2530can I ask what company?
Agree sometimes harder ya go more they give ya. Thats not cool dont reconise the skill you may have to make day safer and shorter.
Undervalued and under appreciated as tradespeople. I’ve been doing tree work for 6 years on and off. Have all my own gear, insurance, climbed, ran buckets, skidsteers, whatever. could do huge side jobs. became extremely proficient at my company and was basically capped at 35. Started an apprenticeship with no experience doing carpentry for the same rate starting with way more room to grow and to learn a much more applicable skill to navigating the economy, seemed like a no brainer. Still miss flopping tops though and dealing with live wood. Yeah i wanna learn to build a house but it isnt nearly as fun. Wish it paid more
I appreciate you updating the site. There really is a need for this form of networking in our industry. Thanks man!
The perfect video for me...though I have experience in tree work I'm just putting myself through climbing tickets to get serious...😎
Keep up the good work 👏
Very hard to find staff, especially skilled staff. Many factors are at play:
Structure:
Several factors inherent to the industry discourage newcomers and make retention challenging. Most employees want stability and good wages. The seasonality of the industry means that the flow of work is inherently unpredictable and inconsistent. Most staff get laid off in the winter and hours will typically be reduced at the start and end of each season. Days are long (its wasteful and inefficient to pull up stakes 8 hours into a 10-hour job and come back for 2 hours the next day because this duplicates travel and prep costs), which creates challenges for staff in their personal lives.
Training:
Whether people are green or coming in with experience at other companies, the labour force is woefully lacking in skills. I hired a climber with 6 years of experience from a big local company who didn't know how to use a portawrap. I hired two staff from a large multinational company who had been taught to sharpen each cutter tooth on a chain different amounts--they also had been taught that a 50:1 fuel mix meant 50ml of two-stroke engine oil in one jerry (a 10L jerry, that is). Staff who have completed college programs aren't much better off. I hired one of the top climbers from a local college who couldn't reliably complete a snap cut or install a chain correctly. He went on to another company, where he cut through his climbing line with his chainsaw (didn't have his lanyard in, of course), and fell out of the tree. This state of affairs puts employers in a position where they effectively have to provide tuition-free education to staff, with very little guarantee of a return on that investment, as staff often leave before the training can pay off. Lawyers don't just stroll up to a firm demanding free education; they invest heaps of time and money in their skills before they even walk through the door. That is because law is a mature, organized industry with a well-developed professional association and educational pipeline. Arboriculture has none of that, so it is the norm for employees to stroll up demanding a free education.
Underregulation:
There are no barriers to entry in arboriculture, meaning there are loads of underqualified hacks pushing down prices; this downward pressure on prices also puts downward pressure on wages. This also means that the incentives for both employees and and employers to improve through training and/or education are basically nil. If your company is spending time and money to train employees and the next company isn't, all things being equal, that puts you at a competitive disadvantage. Likewise, employees have very little incentive to improve their skills, as they are underpaid for the risk and skill level their job requires.
This won't change until we pass provincial legislation requiring minimum qualifications to either call yourself an arborist (i.e., a title act) or practice arboriculture (i.e., a right to practice act). Unfortunately, there is very little willingness to do this within the industry. Part of the reason is incumbency bias; lots of established players in the industry benefitted from the lack of regulation and want to preserve a system that works for them. Another reason is a lack of organization. Despite their use of the word "Association," the ISA is more like a social club than a trade association. The ISA likes hosting events and courses, but has no willingness to engage in an ongoing lobbying function, which is a core function of any mature professional/trade association. If you want legislation (and you really should), you need to lobby for it to government.
Damn….Ive owned my own biz for the last 10+ yrs! I live in city and am the climber, owner, accountant…blah! I didn’t get into this for training homework or paperwork on either end! Best damn answer I’ve ever heard! ISA you hit it on the head….the small….big company here hoards all the ISA climbers from the other companies! They pigeonhole them into being with other ISA groupies. But they will not do as they say and get you above a 30,000 dollar salary! The son of the oldest owner doesn’t climb anymore but he decides who gets to compete climb in the state ISA master class competition then he is the main judge as well!
Excellent summary of the industry's main challenges with regard to staffing. I'm in the PNW and I'd say this accurately describes the staffing situation here.
I'm wondering what Europe is like for small business owners. I've heard there's more regulation, which puts up more barriers to entry, but makes for a smoother ride business-wise once you get established. Not sure if that's actually the case, but I'd like to know what the industry might look like with more regulation/guidance/etc. This seems to be what a lot of legitimate business owners over here would like to see. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Im just a one man band in Scotland. I have a young lad that had qualifications but hardly any experience. He works 2 days a week for me as a contractor. After leaving and coming back he hasn't gone back to his cousin's company but back to me as its much more relaxed and we are not trying to bash out 3 jobs a day! I share my experience and knowledge and he is learning. I couldn't take on an apprentice as i couldn't afford to train them but a contractor who you can mentor and teach whilst not trying to physically drain them of every drop of energy seems to work for me. Respect both ways is essential yes you might earn more as the boss but you have all the big equipment and it took me 7 years to buy and pay for mist of what i want or need! As a contractor you dont have the debt you need to pay every month, the quotes to arrange and go to, the paperwork, organising everything and then doing the cleaning because everyone has gone home! I love it and i think its a passion that flows through our sap (blood 😁) that keeps us at it.
Its a statistically dangerous job and totally brutal on your body. However even if I won the lottery id still do it just maybe not the rubbish jobs.
Thanks Dan and keep them coming 😁
My experience in Ireland has been that the industry is mainly comprised of very small businesses all competing for jobs with a few big companies at the top. The result being that unless you're with a big company, the work is harder than neccesary, days long and often a lot of rushing to squeeze in extra jobs at the end of the day..which can make accidents and mistakes more likely. Also a lot of companies have to take on lads and let them go regularly.. Nevermind that you will have to front enough money to pay for all your training, gear, upkeep etc to even get started. In comparison to other trades that is not ideal and could be prohibitivly expenisive for people trying to enter the industry.Theres very few apprenctiships or clear pathways for people here too. Also, there just seems to not be enough money from the customer base to support a thriving industry...People will pay through the nose for a Sparks, but nearly fall over when they hear a quote for a tree..I've always thought we need a union...but we need a functioning industry first I guess. Not tryin to be negative..Love the trade but I can see why theres not many of us.
Here in the uk in the south it’s only in the last few years that wages have begun to increase. Pay and work load are the 2 main reasons for staff turn over. The third being bosses. I’ve been doing this almost 20 years now and hear it time and time again. The only way to make more money is to set up your own company, this in turn increases competition and decreases the pool of workers. When people get paid considerably better, less will leave to set up on there own.
This is the problem isnt it good people work for a company for an average wage then realise there worth and what they could earn if they started up on there own so they do thus increasing the competition and before you know it the next one comes through the door to replace them and then a year later the same thing happens and so it goes on. I’m a climber working for a company here in the south east and see it all the time but it makes me wonder what the industry is gonna look like in ten years time when every man and his dog is having a go!
All Of the comments you say Dan I’ve been in the industry since 1989 there are great companies and garbage mixed with all types there is a huge amount of talent/hate for the industry and the fact that our industry is seen as ignorant from the average person I could talk for hours about this but you have covered it well.
Joe from California
In sydney im one of alot of contract ground guys. Seems the way it is and work seems not what it was years ago here. Gets slow then gota pay guys no work. Always good stuff dan thanx
I’ve recently just decided to career change to this industry! Can’t wait to get started. One problem is probably from a older person is the cost and the pay cut to start again really
I really want to get into climbing/aborist work. Unfortunately climbers are hard to find in my area. Bucket trucks and cranes here.
A thing I think contributes is the cost of all the tickets and gear you need to pay for. It’s a big initial out lay. I have been lucky enough to get in with a large company who have provided me all the gear and tickets and I have no intention of leaving. We’ve just taken on 2 young nippers who are really good and keen. I live on an island so there isn’t much in the way of opportunities so that always helps with retaining staff.
Hi!
Myself and my old man been running our own tree surgery for about 10 years now full qualified and both love the industry it’s all we’ve done in our working lives. With employees we tend to over pay just to keep people keen and build moral, but in that case people these days think their shit doesn’t stink! I climb 5-6 days a week I’m paying groundies (mind you 99% of them are not up to standards but are learning) anywhere from $350-$450 AUD a day. It’s rough but I guess that’s just the industry now!
Thanks!
It’s physically demanding work that has a lot of seasonal employment for those who are just starting out. With more seasonal type of work comes less benefits. Other trades that are not as seasonally affected eventually look more attractive.
Does depend where you are. In the south east we work all winter. Get rained off a few days in the winter but not many. It can be a bit grim though
I got started in this urban industry like 3 years ago? Now I'm a supervisor and crew lead. Most of the issues that we have stem from worker attitude. My boss pays me extremely well, but it's hard to find people who are motivated to work. It's either no drive to work, or an ego that rivals oceans. It's ridiculous. I love my job, I strive to learn more, but it makes coming to work hard when no one else seems to want to be there or take responsibility for their actions.
its because the ones who truly love it end up moving to the forest to properly live among the trees, away from humans hahaha
Like it.
Wish i could.
I've got a couple of friends that have large equipment and a few employees. I work alone, and if the jobs get too large, then i give them the work. I will work a week, then take off and mountain bike in different locations for a week. Its pretty hard to have help with a schedule like that.
Ideally, for the good apples you want to treat them right. Give them opportunities to upscale and mentor new candidates. Ideally, as you said, it's $$$. You want good comradery and positive challenges.
As a hiring manager before, I found that the best candidates are the ones that want to learn and progress in the trade. It might be a freshman out of highschool or someone changing careers. You want those people that are self motivated and want to learn and grow. In my experience, I find that new recruits with 0% tend to excel people who are very knowledgeable on the field but are burnout from switch companies so many times.
Myself, I changed careers in my 30s. I used to work in the office for over 14 years with a decent pay. Now I'm much happier and enjoying everyday I'm at work. There are definitely wet & cold days. But I will take any wet day on the field than staying in the office for years on end.
Cheers
Hello! My name is Jordan and I am the only Arborist with a UA-cam Channel in Bulgaria. The problem is the same here. Only something else is being observed. I get calls all the time from people who want to become Arborists and have companies, but no one wants to do the rest of the work. Only BOSSES ;). Greetings and good health!!
Honestly, Im one of the few that wanted to keep learning this trade after starting out 3 years ago with some buddies. At first, it was just a seasonal gig for me to get a workout and some money out of it lol. Now Im a climber but struggling cause if I want to earn more I have to move north, but wineter comes and the snow slows down work. And I cant afford to have a starting wage in another trade right now.
I think this job is for those who are passionate about it. It'snot just a job for us
It was money for me.
Underpaid, overbid jobs, but never saw the benefit working for a larger company (started with a D, B, S, or A).
Went back to private sector, safety wasn’t a priority and thought I was gonna die there due to negligence amongst the old guard team and new guys that had no experience.
Contract climbing is almost 3x as much pay with 1/2 the hours. That’s being said, I’m with a new crew of groundies every so often not knowledgeable with how to run ropes and it’s dangerous (sometimes).
Have to find the sweet medium between safety-production-money.
This trade will always be there, the machines being made no matter what will have to have an experienced climber flying on a ball, or climbing. If the chance to gain experiences dissipates we will have problems.
Every kid climbs trees.
Im a contractor but i schedule mywelf like im an employee. Work for the same two companies every week, with room for the occasional third.
So i know the teams well and their processes. Was the truck driver for a while too so i was usually the first on the job and the last to leave.
To me this is the ideal arrangement but i can see it not working for everyone.
I work with contractors only. Like it cos shorta days n im not gettin younger. I am a contract groundy own gear . But after years with bigger companys i like it lot more.
There’s no school for arborist here in San Diego county or riverside county where I live. You have to get with a company to learn, nobody has the time to earn $18 for a year or two while you wait to get trained. Also there’s people that charge dirt cheap to climb and trim. So I’m assuming people look elsewhere for a job.
It doesn't pay enough - it can destroy your body - newbies take a long time to train - bosses get frustrated because the job is taking too long.
Younger people aren't as willing to be as uncomfortable as people were before. I came and left the Industry as the pay just wasn't there.
In The US, It always been like that. Been 32 years in the business..
I worked as a Commercial Diver (hard hat diver not scuba) before becoming an Arborist and both have turnover and lack of qualified candidates, in particular the climbers. It’s because both are highly specialized fields that are dangerous and technical. In diving the phobia of claustrophobia and working in the dark eliminate most candidates. In climbing you have the heights issue. Both fields require a good knowledge of rigging which can be challenging to some.
Let's all pray for Bino 🙏
1) Lack of a steady job, tree work is sporatic , same guy can drive a truck 5 or 6 days a week with benifits. 2) why risk your life for low wages. 3 ) work conditons suck, its cold & wet or burning hot. 4) its dangerous AF. 5) You watch the owner boss make thousands while You make hourly wage.
If you pay them what they're worth they wont leave. £80 a day for a comapny or £200 a day as a subby. Its a no brainer for a young subby. Im 41 and took a job with the council 5 years ago because I thought about a pension. I was a subby mostly on commercial and utility sector. Working for the council completely destroyed my love of the job, and I wish I had kept contracting. Hence, im not young or fit enough to return to it.
People in vancouver island were getting paid $30 an hour to climb. Terrible wage for the island
With the price of gas and groceries out west I feel for you guys
Yes! It is very hard to find help. Less and less people want to work outside with their hands. Tree work is physically demanding and dangerous. Also people are expecting a higher wage with benefits . Smaller companies have a hard time meeting dose demands.
I have 7 great employees and 6 of them climb. Treat people well and you will have all the best employees. Everyone else around me is struggling because I have all the good guys😎
Too true look after your workers, train them adequately and respect the training period without yelling and having doubts from the worker, some jobs can be daunting some jobs a lot of us are willing to do but dont get the chance or opportunity.
@@pinoy_arborist Having a team of veterans who are excited to teach others and offer helpful ways to get comfortable is a great environment. I have one guy who has been climbing a little over a year and he is savage now.
Pay peanuts, get monkeys. Probably the most appropriate phrase for Arboriculture.
Tree work seems a better side gig then anything now a days. So many people in my areas are low balling work. No one cares if your a certified arborist anymore....the lowest buck gets the work.
I was going to say this very thing. I have a small one-man company in fl in the US and i use one or two subcontractors for geound work, usually the same people.
Working for yourself is the only way to avoid pressure to work too quickly and make safety compromises. Here in fl it's also the only way to be sure you won't be asked to do industry-prohibited work (unhealthy pruning, topping, removals that could have been salvaged). But for a small company competition is stiff and unqualified companies will happily underbid you. As a result, the work ends up fairly unsteady and is really only useful as a side gig.
As for employee sourcing, I've been lucky to have found younger guys who don't need steady work and who are interested in this kind of work. I happily teach them anything they want to learn and I find opportunities to put them in trees if they want to. We work 6 hrs days whenever possible, and we always share brush dragging and cleanup work.
For good solid ground guys who do well with rigging-intensive jobs, I usually pay 250 to 300 per day. If they help a bit with the climbing, I pay 325 to 375 per day, and I split all tips 50/50. It's the only way to make sure someone's willing to show up without a steady paycheck.
The rise of the contract climber can be directly tied to the rise of bucket trucks and lifts. It's never been easier to have a tree service that doesn't climb anything. As such you get companies and individuals that specialize in climbing. Even at locations that still have a decent amount of climbing, the really difficult technical stuff is getting done with cranes instead of old school tree skills. I would expect in the next 20 years to see a large decline indusry wide in technical rigging skills as grapple saws and cranes continue to become more integrated in tree work.
As for finding employees, it is way easier to find someone with little skills, but lots of interest, and a hobby in a related field (rock climbing, bonsai, collecting house plants, hiking and camping, etc) that likes being outdoors and bringing them up to speed vs finding someone on a short time scale with skills... All of the top tier, really good tree climbers have found somewhere that they are happy at and aren't moving short of major life changes, so looking for someone with skills you're likely getting second tier at best, and likely someone that is trying to make a name for themselves out of the shadow of that lead climber. It leads to a lot of "fake it til you make it" climbers coming around during interviews, also lots of people that are only chasing a dollar and don't have long term loyalty and while they may be good employees, training from within has much better results
Good opinions all around ^^. I would add that I don't think it's quite as simple re lifts etc: Imo the broad proliferation of lifts and similar tech on the part of "big treework" is intentionally to be able to function without skilled climbers. This then has had the effect of rapidly accelerating the deterioration of their (skilled) workforce.
Yer bro think ya nailed it.
So why has August Hunikie had the same 4 guys for at least a decade ????
he hasnt
With all the things that I being learning from August hunikie I will paid money just to work around that man! He have the people that he have because he is e great lider, money is important, but when someone like him teach you something every day! That is gold. For people who knows what to do with the information.
My answer is that most wanta just climb. Cos money gear challenge. Good groundys not so many now i rekon. Got great climbers left with backpackers n bit dangerouse.
FYI. Contract climbing got outlawed in California
wtf!? you got any links to more info?
ya we are gonna need a source on that.
@@matiascamprubi-soms7719 AB5 law is for all contract work, not just climbing. There are exemptions, might be able to be a independent contractor for a landscaper but need ur own business license and all that jazz. Purpose of the law was to get more people collecting benefits.
@@homeguardsterProbably the same laws they put into effect to get a handle on the Uber situation
Staffing is hard everywhere. Especially in the trades.
I was a tradesman at one point.
Then I got paid 2x in the office for a way easier job, so...
They really only have themselves to blame at this point
@jeffshackleford3152 depends on the trade.
@GDCC if you are an estimator for a trade, like me, you will absolutely make more money than a Joyrneyman who works 10 hrs OT every single week, probably starting pay.
Some of the foreman make quite good money, but 20 years in a trade at the same company probably isn't worth it.
That is just the way it is, office staff generally make more than the tradesman do. Especially if they are Estimator, PM, Inspector etc.
@@jeffshackleford3152that's awesome to hear. I totally see your point. However, on this side of the world (Vancouver, BC) some jobs can pay you $150k without much overtime. Heavy duty mechanics, powerline technicians, welders are some examples. Obviously it depends on the trade and company. Unlike someone going through school and spending thousands to just make minimum wage income, in the trades you can start making a decent coin right off the bat.
Again, everything depends on where you are located, what you do, and who you are working for. In general, arboriculture is a very unique ability and there are not many people out there filling those jobs. Therefore, limited availability and increase on demand will make the price for the job jump.
This is all based on my experience from Vancouver BC.
@@jeffshackleford3152what is your job role? It's better paid for sure but I do love climbing. I'm still young, maybe when I'm older I'll do that.
Im from.argentina. pay me the ticket and go to there to work
The climber has to be the owner. Groundies can have a higher turnoverrate.
The works extremely hard and the pay is rubbish. A lot of competition with idiots on Facebook that will do it for less.
It's the money.
Money, too much for the owners to invest, not enough for the employees for it to be worthwhile and customers are too cheap.
You are asked to do a Heros job .
But get criminak wages.
I closed down my tree service and went back to driving truck to make a 100k.A year. No.
Hassle no insurance no problems.
And no downtime where you spend six months waiting for the economy to pick back up
I think many folks don't even realize that it's an exciting option much better than a fast food job, office, truck driver or any of the everyday jobs we see people doing everywhere we go.
The rope climbing and zip lining makes it even better.
The equipment is crazy expensive to get started though! You need almost 2000 dollars worth of stuff just to try your hand at tree climbing.
Getting the opportunity to saw limbs from out over my house in with a bucket truck got me hooked on the subject.😃
There should be some arborist things set up at local fairs that allows the crowd to use a portowrap or something. Just that in itself most folks have zero knowledge of.
The idea that you can lower 1500 lbs down with a portowrap is mind boggling!
Bottom line is this is a dying breed nobody wants to do physical work nomore an contractors don’t want to pay a good climber what it’s worth
im a 61 year old 1 man tree service i have one on call 45 year old buddy i trained who never fails to show up. He likes the physical challenge & can spend the money he makes on anything not bills because he doesnt need the money. His wife makes $100,000 a year after taxes. if i need a young expert tree climber i call in the local climber. This is a Biden economy reccesson so work has virtualy stopped. 10:53
so, do you think tariffs are gonna make things cheaper for regular people?
stocks all time high, employment nearly lowest its ever been, inflation for 2024 2.5%, if you cant make it in this economy thats 100% on you.
I agree, this economy is crap.. I'm in a completely different industry and just come here to get pointers on climbing/ pruning my own trees on my property ( one big silver maple).
Greedy People are the reason
wages/cost of living