Good to hear four reasonable (for the most part) men speaking about the issue. But TPM and others in the opposition part of the house have an hidden agenda and are not reasonable but speak derisively to those who say that their agenda is not true to the Treaty or what they have believed for generations. Alfred took a very personal view in his comments about David Seymore but the issue is bigger than the man. We need to have principles so the relationship works, but the relationship needs to value and honour both parties and work towards a mutually respectful working together for the best for both parties. A marriage analogy only works if we establish the nature and understanding of the marriage entered into by both parties. Marriages are formed and lived out in a variety of ways. A modern partnership, a Christian marriage entered into willingly by both parties, an islamist marriage which has different foundations initiated by one party only, Indian arranged marriages. Many quite capable people are able to do their own research and argue for a point of view and deserve to be heard. Politicians are meant to be representatives of the people but we now have some there who have a narrow personal ideology that they are pursuing, we will never forget Jacinda Ardern's 'podium of truth' and how changes were imposed from above with no transparency and debate.
An excellent discussion. Some due diligence on my part. I didn’t agree with all the panel’s points but it’s the kind of discussion we need rather than relying on soundbites and the facile talk we get on radio and TV. Well done
Our starting point should be what agreed outcomes we want to achieve- ie peace, equality and wellbeing for all. Seems a simple and essential place to start rather than trying to figure out what was going through the minds of the various key players over a hundred years ago.
The debate & vote should be in parliament. I would also like to know thoughts or discussions around the Chiefs Conference of Kohimara. I am perplexed between what I’ve been told & what the Kohimarama transcripts of chief statements
But!! And most important. Will Kiwis "submit to this bill. There is a need to prompting people and advertising to the public! Its important not to attack the person (David Seymour) but the topic. Is equality important NOW in 2024!!
Can I make a respectful suggestion? An organisation called Family First presumably purports to speak for women as well as men, given that women are the primary caregivers - and often the key decision-makers - in most families. All-male panels (such as this one) provide ammunition to "progressive" critics who like to characterise conservative groups such as Family First as being dominated and controlled by men.
It's unfortunate that the video fails to mention He Wakaputanga [ Declaration 1835 ] which must be understood as the basis that the Treaty was made on. As co-author of the 1835 NZ Declaration of Independence Henry Williams protected NZ sovereignty with 2 crucial phrases in the te Reo version. Tino Rangitiratanga meant sovereignty was retained, not ceded. And crucially, that governance was only over “British Subjects” which meant only people born in England. International law dictates that local language takes precedence in treaty. Realising they had failed; British parliament didn’t ratify the treaty or make it law. Instead, they lied again and said the English version was law & sovereignty had been ceded. A few years of debates ensued (England was busy in the opium war) before the Rothschilds upped the ante & brought in their private mercenary army from India to brutally crush resistance. And a century passed. In the 1970s however debate started again & finally in 2014 the head of crown law in NZ, the attorney general, wrote: “The treaty was a failed attempt at taking sovereignty away from nz and therefore the inescapable conclusion in law is that the legal document of precedence in NZ is He Wakaputunga (the 1835 nz Declaration of Independence) and nothing since then has changed anything about that in any way at all” So even the crown admits the real Govt of NZ is the federal Gvt under He Wakaputunga (the Wakaminenga Govt) Nothing done by the crown has any legal standing. The debt belongs to them not to the people. They are signed to the TPPA, the UN compact, the WHO, etc not NZ. And why neither councils nor Govt can produce a single document to show they have the jurisdiction and authority to level rates, fees, taxes, etc. They are in fact an illegal occupation force of a foreign corporation.
Well, what did Apirana Ngata say? Here is a scholar a statesman of the highest order who wrote an essay on the treaty, and he wss closer to events than any one of us today. So why are are trying to rewrite history?what about the final draft by James Busby which has all but disappeared from public discourse? why are we distorting and obscuring the truth. There were no principles in the treaty. I think that maori didnt no know the full impact of colonialisation after having ceded sovereignty and they have been trying to claw back ever since. Colonisation is a double-edged sword. It was cruel difficult but here we are.
Not Co governance but Co operation between different factions. Big difference. Sovereignty was I believe, ceded. And the Maori Chiefs knew this. The Crown did not promise a free ride. NOW is the time to have a discussion on our future. Bringing the Treaty and a required and "needed" equality into the 21st Century!! In my view. The historical Treaty as is, is not fit for purpose
Not sure if most of us are at the beach or otherwise on holiday Maybe most of your circles. The rest of us have work to do. Just saying...love your work
No most New Zealanders don’t think… stop astroturfing. We just want to get on together. Stop this race based nonsense. Stop preferential treatment. Because we will be fked if we don’t.
When was the last time you were racially discriminated against by a cop in NZ? Or a social worker? Because Maori experience that all the time, and you don't stand up for non-Maori getting preferential treamtent in those situations. You're weaponizing clinical terms to reinforce bigotry.
personaly I think your way out on a limb guys , assumption and arrogance , "most people" would say this lol.. most people would agree that Maori like any group will interpret any document in favour of themselve,s and believe me some Maori are crafty, lol but good people ,,, and moon your so full of your own baloney
Julian Bachelor should have been on this panel. Principles of the bill is where the problem lies in that it is a perspective and every person's thinking is biased towards what benefits come out of it for their comfort. Go back to the source.
Can Dr Paul Moon explain why he got involved in desecration of old "pre Māori " burial sites in and around Whangārei at the time he wrote the book "This Horrid Practice " which he was involved in removing these bones ( skulls and skeletons) of pre Polynesian races living in NZ. Heres the link 🔗, Paul Moon is mentioned about his desecration of skeletons & skulls by the late Noel Hillaim on or around 5th November 2008 .Starting around the 45 minute mark.... ua-cam.com/video/Vh5iId6y0dw/v-deo.htmlsi=JHTSksC3FA1uLzQY
@@warrenmartin2982 yep ,The real History of NZ.. Pre Polynesian/ Māori history is people deliberately being suppressed in NZ. I suspect Dr Paul Moon is on the Gravy Train Ride Like so many academics in this country.
@@jakeknobel well said ,Academics don't want the truth to be explained about NZ pre Polynesian/ Māori history. It's just to easy to jump on the band wagon of Riding a Gravy Train for what's It's worth. A Dr ( academy name given to him ) without exploring the truth behind NZs history but worse he's deceiving Māori for history they are not open to discussing...
Good to hear four reasonable (for the most part) men speaking about the issue. But TPM and others in the opposition part of the house have an hidden agenda and are not reasonable but speak derisively to those who say that their agenda is not true to the Treaty or what they have believed for generations. Alfred took a very personal view in his comments about David Seymore but the issue is bigger than the man. We need to have principles so the relationship works, but the relationship needs to value and honour both parties and work towards a mutually respectful working together for the best for both parties. A marriage analogy only works if we establish the nature and understanding of the marriage entered into by both parties. Marriages are formed and lived out in a variety of ways. A modern partnership, a Christian marriage entered into willingly by both parties, an islamist marriage which has different foundations initiated by one party only, Indian arranged marriages. Many quite capable people are able to do their own research and argue for a point of view and deserve to be heard. Politicians are meant to be representatives of the people but we now have some there who have a narrow personal ideology that they are pursuing, we will never forget Jacinda Ardern's 'podium of truth' and how changes were imposed from above with no transparency and debate.
An excellent discussion. Some due diligence on my part. I didn’t agree with all the panel’s points but it’s the kind of discussion we need rather than relying on soundbites and the facile talk we get on radio and TV. Well done
Great discussion - So nice to see respectful dialogue.
Absolutely awesome - well articulated, Thanks.
This is the best discussion I've seen in regards to this.
An excellent discussion Bob.
Ewen McQueen was calm, convincing and absolutely correct.
Our starting point should be what agreed outcomes we want to achieve- ie peace, equality and wellbeing for all. Seems a simple and essential place to start rather than trying to figure out what was going through the minds of the various key players over a hundred years ago.
Why don’t you sit down and talk to Julian Bachelor on stop co governance and he will throw some light on this subject he used to be a teacher
I agree invite Julian Batchelor and Tuku Morgan for a US style debate. Turn the mic off in-between 😂😂
Yep come on family first
lmao. Pseduo intellectualism
Reasonable dialogue and discussion
Alfred! 400 years earlier, the visitation! How did that impact your culture? Killing eating each other, wow yes the vistation really impacted them.
The debate & vote should be in parliament.
I would also like to know thoughts or discussions around the Chiefs Conference of Kohimara. I am perplexed between what I’ve been told & what the Kohimarama transcripts of chief statements
Very enlightening!❤
The ultimate goal of a civilisation is to live in peace and harmony,
great talk
But!! And most important. Will Kiwis "submit to this bill. There is a need to prompting people and advertising to the public! Its important not to attack the person (David Seymour) but the topic.
Is equality important NOW in 2024!!
Let’s hear it from all angles please could you invite him onto your program for people to talk about this subject
Can I make a respectful suggestion? An organisation called Family First presumably purports to speak for women as well as men, given that women are the primary caregivers - and often the key decision-makers - in most families. All-male panels (such as this one) provide ammunition to "progressive" critics who like to characterise conservative groups such as Family First as being dominated and controlled by men.
well maybe, but it also indicates a 'gender blindness' in that the topic is more important than gender considerations.
@@mikehoulding5821 You speak as if direct experience has no influence on implicit bias
It's unfortunate that the video fails to mention He Wakaputanga [ Declaration 1835 ] which must be understood as the basis that the Treaty was made on.
As co-author of the 1835 NZ Declaration of Independence Henry Williams protected NZ sovereignty with 2 crucial phrases in the te Reo version.
Tino Rangitiratanga meant sovereignty was retained, not ceded.
And crucially, that governance was only over “British Subjects” which meant only people born in England.
International law dictates that local language takes precedence in treaty.
Realising they had failed; British parliament didn’t ratify the treaty or make it law.
Instead, they lied again and said the English version was law & sovereignty had been ceded.
A few years of debates ensued (England was busy in the opium war) before the Rothschilds upped the ante & brought in their private mercenary army from India to brutally crush resistance.
And a century passed.
In the 1970s however debate started again & finally in 2014 the head of crown law in NZ, the attorney general, wrote:
“The treaty was a failed attempt at taking sovereignty away from nz and therefore the inescapable conclusion in law is that the legal document of precedence in NZ is He Wakaputunga (the 1835 nz Declaration of Independence) and nothing since then has changed anything about that in any way at all”
So even the crown admits the real Govt of NZ is the federal Gvt under He Wakaputunga (the Wakaminenga Govt)
Nothing done by the crown has any legal standing.
The debt belongs to them not to the people.
They are signed to the TPPA, the UN compact, the WHO, etc not NZ.
And why neither councils nor Govt can produce a single document to show they have the jurisdiction and authority to level rates, fees, taxes, etc.
They are in fact an illegal occupation force of a foreign corporation.
What about He Whakaputanga 1835 Sovereignty??
Well, what did Apirana Ngata say? Here is a scholar a statesman of the highest order who wrote an essay on the treaty, and he wss closer to events than any one of us today. So why are are trying to rewrite history?what about the final draft by James Busby which has all but disappeared from public discourse? why are we distorting and obscuring the truth. There were no principles in the treaty. I think that maori didnt no know the full impact of colonialisation after having ceded sovereignty and they have been trying to claw back ever since. Colonisation is a double-edged sword. It was cruel difficult but here we are.
Not Co governance but Co operation between different factions. Big difference. Sovereignty was I believe, ceded. And the Maori Chiefs knew this. The Crown did not promise a free ride.
NOW is the time to have a discussion on our future. Bringing the Treaty and a required and "needed" equality into the 21st Century!!
In my view. The historical Treaty as is, is not fit for purpose
Sources: Trust me, bro!
Not sure if most of us are at the beach or otherwise on holiday
Maybe most of your circles. The rest of us have work to do. Just saying...love your work
McQueen. Opening question! Wow, what a blabbering waffle.
No most New Zealanders don’t think… stop astroturfing. We just want to get on together. Stop this race based nonsense. Stop preferential treatment. Because we will be fked if we don’t.
When was the last time you were racially discriminated against by a cop in NZ? Or a social worker? Because Maori experience that all the time, and you don't stand up for non-Maori getting preferential treamtent in those situations. You're weaponizing clinical terms to reinforce bigotry.
This is becoming a laughing stock on the global stage, we need to get a grip really quickly.
I personally dont trust Seymore at all.
personaly I think your way out on a limb guys , assumption and arrogance , "most people" would say this lol.. most people would agree that Maori like any group will interpret any document in favour of themselve,s and believe me some Maori are crafty, lol but good people ,,, and moon your so full of your own baloney
Hyper-individualistic lenss, that lacks an understanding of culture
Julian Bachelor should have been on this panel. Principles of the bill is where the problem lies in that it is a perspective and every person's thinking is biased towards what benefits come out of it for their comfort. Go back to the source.
David Seymour is a good man. Be weary of people who wish to complicate life.
For what gain is complexity 🤔🤔
Simple human rules.
Who needs to understand nuance when you can force false answers in situations that they don't apply, right?
Can Dr Paul Moon explain why he got involved in desecration of old "pre Māori " burial sites in and around Whangārei at the time he wrote the book "This Horrid Practice " which he was involved in removing these bones ( skulls and skeletons) of pre Polynesian races living in NZ. Heres the link 🔗, Paul Moon is mentioned about his desecration of skeletons & skulls by the late Noel Hillaim on or around 5th November 2008 .Starting around the 45 minute mark.... ua-cam.com/video/Vh5iId6y0dw/v-deo.htmlsi=JHTSksC3FA1uLzQY
I wanted that asked as well. He has a poor record with these actions. All our history should be known. Maori were not first here
@@warrenmartin2982 yep ,The real History of NZ.. Pre Polynesian/ Māori history is people deliberately being suppressed in NZ. I suspect Dr Paul Moon is on the Gravy Train Ride Like so many academics in this country.
@@warrenmartin2982 thats irrelevant. So is a scruple about bones.
That angle should be self-evident if your academic role depended on it.
@@jakeknobel well said ,Academics don't want the truth to be explained about NZ pre Polynesian/ Māori history. It's just to easy to jump on the band wagon of Riding a Gravy Train for what's It's worth. A Dr ( academy name given to him ) without exploring the truth behind NZs history but worse he's deceiving Māori for history they are not open to discussing...