I have a single 48v bank with conversion. I am using 2 48/12 30a step down converters for my switched distribution and 1 48/12 20a step down converter for my unswitched distribution. I also have a 48 volt 2200 watt inverter charger for my ac distribution.
@@PacificYachtSystems My step down converters are uxcell for the 2 30 amps and BZONE for the 20 amp. For the Inverter, I have a Spartan Power inverter model SP-IC2248 that I went with for a few reasons. It has an automatic neutral-to-ground disconnect that you can physically hear, and it has a conformal coating to resist corrosion on the circuit boards. It was very affordable as well at $699 when I bought it. They have not had them in stock for a while however.
I have separate 48v (200ah) and 12v (200ah) banks on my holland 30 (on my channel). I have 2 separate solar banks linked to victron contollers for each of the battery banks. Some reasons for this approach were; the existing 12v system max draw is unknown, house loads wouldn't deplete the drive battery, 12v bank was already in there and upgraded so why take it out, reduce the charge cycles of the drive battery/increase battery life
One of the big advantages of running as much 48V equipment as possible is you can run thinner wire gage (less $$'s) for same power consumption. However, finding 48V equivalent equipment is problematic as you mentioned.
If I had a 48v windlass, I'd much prefer to run the wires rated for that current than to run the wires rated for equivalent 12v current. If I had a 48v windlass.
Yes! Please talk all day about this. My installation has been sidetracked for awhile, but I’m sitting here looking at a 10kw electric motor, 4 12v 100 amp hour LiFePo to be wired in series for a 48v bank. 2x 200w 24v solar panels also to be wired in series, a Victron Smartsolar 48v MPPT 100/20. The 48v bank will charge the 12v/100ah house LiFePo via a Victron Orion Tr 48/12-30 dc to dc converter. I also have splurged on a Victron Quattro 48v/3000w/35-50 inverter charger for AC and quick charging at dock. I’m still working on my homework from your channel and reading Nigel’s book as this is all pretty new to me. An interesting thing for anyone doing this to keep in mind from my own experience, it looks like only t-fuses for the higher voltage. Easy to find right amperage, difficult to find high enough voltage. I have a question. Can I run my 12v dc to dc, my Inverter/charger, and my motor controller, all back to the same pos. and neg. distribution bus of the 48v bank if the bus bar’s voltage and amperage ratings are high enough? And lol, of course, if anyone wants to hold my hand through installing all this…lol
Hi Anthony, don't see why you couldn't connect all your 48 VDC loads to positive and negative bus bars from your 48 VDC bank. Make sure all your circuits are fused.
Hey cool video... I'm building a solar Cat (similar to Silent 55). I am waiting for a 84kw battery bank (48v) that will be recharged by a 9kw solar system... My issue with another batery bank is that the house will draw a lot in days we dont move and I would need a very large 12v battery bank too... thus it's HEAVY and expensive. So what I plan is to have 2x 20Amp converter for 24v (toilet, windlass) and 1 12v converter for small things like lights... Other big apparel like fridge and thermopump will be on 110V drawn from the inverter... This way I finf I save MORE on weight and $$ AND a way that I still don't know to recharge this new 12v... As all my panels are focussed to the motors when I need to move... Great video, great topic, thanks !
My surplus military 48 volt propulsion motor has a built-in 14 volt permanent magnet generator. Works great as a 60 amp rotory converter any time the prop is spinning. Charging two seperate battery banks. 48 volt propulsion with solar. 12 volt house with pmg voltage regulator. The Downside is the motor's 200 lb weight. Awesome regen sailing at 6 knots.
We're looking to purchase a houseboat that needs new engines and replace with electric inboard motors, rather than putting in diesel motors. The boat is likely to be 14ftx60ft, or so. We want to use most of the upper deck for solar panels (probably 6kw-8kw, or more, if the panels will fit). We intend to employ used solar panels that have been on a corporate lease and used for about five years, or so, to save money on the panels. And, I would install them myself. We intend to do as you suggest and have separate battery banks - one 12v 5 kwh bank of LiFePO4 batteries for house loads, one 51.2 volt 30 kwh bank for use with a 12kw inverter for AC loads, and a dedicated 48-96 volt (or higher, depending on the motors used) LiFePO4 bank for propulsion. We are looking to cruise the Intracoastal Waterway only and not go out into the open ocean. And, we are looking to cruise at 5-7 knots - we're not in a hurry to go anywhere. We would likely travel only 30 miles per day, or so. And, we want to do this as economically as possible, without underpowering the houseboat. We're new to boating and have never owned one. So, while I have a good feel for the electronic aspects of the project of powering the 12 volt DC loads and the house AC loads, I don't have a good feel for the size of the electric drive motors we should use for a houseboat. And, I would like to use the same solar array for charging the 12 volt, the 48 volt, and the battery bank for the propulsion motors. So, what I would like from you is some advice on: 1 - Sizing the electric motors to be used for propulsion. 2 - Sizing the battery bank for the motors. 3 - Using the same solar array for charging all three battery banks. Thanks for any insight you might be able to provide to help us accomplish our goals!
Jeff, I have been a follower for quite some time. I really enjoy your videos and the website. I am in the 3rd year of a 4 year refit of a 1975 Pearson 419 Center Cockpit Ketch. One of the main areas for the refit was propulsion. We have implemented a Quiet Torque 20 electric engine from Electric Yacht. For this, we have a 48V 440Ah battery bank for propulsion - these are Firefly batteries. We have a 12V 400Ah lithium bank (we plan on growing it) for our house bank. As you suggested we convert from 48 -> 12V using the Victron converter with a 12 - 12 / 30A DC-DC charger to top off the bank (we can add more of each to increase the charge if needed). Our propulsion bank uses 48V Delta-Q chargers connected to an isolation transformer to charge from shore power. We also have a Victron Multiplus Inverter/Charger connected to an isolation transformer to charge the 12V house bank from shore power. We plan on adding solar to charge the propulsion bank and then through the conversion topping off the house bank. You asked for others who are doing the same thing, so I hope this helps. Regards, Ricky Tapper
I have 96 v drive motor on my boat. Supplying it is 2 banks of 48v battery banks. These are charged though 2 banks of solar. The house and working equipment is off a 12v 300amh battery. This is charged from one bank of 48v bank through an mppt charge controller. Ultimately the one 48v bank just tops up the boat 12v system untill we need to run the motor. It's still under build process so is untested as yet. Fingers crossed.
Big House Yachts is building the Whitacre 47’ catamaran in Anacortes, WA. A boat this size would require pounds and $$ of copper wire if it remained 12 or even 24v. Instead, a 48v battery bank will support a 48v backbone throughout the vessel. At various points, Victron 48-12 DC-DC converters will be used to support 12v systems. Each of these points will have separate circuit breaker panels further reducing the copper wire needs. 48v winches and windlass will be installed also eliminating the high 12v loads. Propulsion will be a 48v electric motor on the port side and a Yanmar diesel to starboard. A DC-DC converter along with a 12v start battery will support the Yanmar.
Hey TC Skeels, sounds like an interesting project. 48 volts is so tempting, as you say you can run large loads like inverter, winches, windlass all at 48 VDC. Question, what is the alternator output (12 or 48 VDC) of the Yanmar diesel on starboard?
I've been playing the 48/12 game for years now, and I'm actually wondering when we'll start seeing higher voltages and how I could handle that. 48v limits you to about 20hp because you reach 4/0 cable sizes to feed it, and then you start doubling cables and moving to bus bars and solutions start getting crazy. Higher DC voltages come with their own problems, and dangers, but they do let you use human sized cables. A bigger deal though is that it would allow the use of the same motors used in electric cars that are running 350 to 450 volts to deliver hundreds of horse power. More than a sailboat really needs, but puts the 60 to 100hp range of motors on the table at a reasonable price. Of course it creates a new puzzle for the power needs of a windlass, chart plotter, and an Instapot.
48v is more efficient ... from scratch, it is the way to go IMO. There is always nrg loss from the source to where it is used so you effectively increase your storage capacity with higher efficiency and at a higher rate of conversion. [Power loss(watts) = I²(current)R(resistance)] 12v requires 4 times the amps that 48v does for the same power P=IV. Along the wire, resistance increases with distance linearly, so current drain must make up the difference for a set power requirement. The longer the wire the worse it gets. Solar for a 48v bank is cheaper the higher the capacity required. 48v to 24v or 12v converters are ubiquitous these days and are much like electronic speed controllers that use pulse width modulation sent through a capacitor to smooth down the peak, If you can read instructions it should not really be a consideration on your appliance choices. With a BMS (battery management system), you set the minimum capacity of your bank to devote to propulsion so you won't empty your 'fuel tank' for your motor. There are blue tooth apps for BMS that allow you to adjust these on the fly via your smart phone. Some of these are Pro's that some will consider cons. A BMS is just part of the design as far as I am concerned and more practical than insurance. The con is you may have to learn a few things. The con of cost applies if you already have a 12v system for the house bank (most probably already do unless you are talking about a total gut job restoration type thing). There is a fairly large if not the largest percentage of folks that this will definitely register as a con. 48/12v ... If you already have a 12v system, the advantage is ... you already have it and save the cost and headache of replacing it. Your 12v house bank doesn't risk your propulsion bank and vise versa so you really don't need a BMS if you think that way. You can series up a 12v bank of 4 and make it a 48v in a pinch. You don't have to worry about learning a few things. On the other side ... you need two separate solar set ups and 12v is much less efficient and cost more to convert sunlight into juice in the battery bank (because of wire size and length - resistance). Your bank capacity is limited by the conversion rate for a single system because solar controllers available can only handle a limited voltage input which limits the number of panels that can feed it. 48v controllers have a much higher range of voltage inputs so you can use multiple larger panels at higher voltages. This effectively makes solar for 12v more expensive and slower to fill a large house battery bank. If you only need a small 12v house battery bank and you can get away with a cheap controller with a couple of panels on a smaller boat you might be able to save a bit overall so for some it may register as a pro not having to get converters or a BMS. You have a boat ... otherwise know as a hole in the water ... Bring On Another Thousand ... so I won't piddle with the few dollars here and there about minor duplicate cost for things you need two of in a 48/12 configuration. But really, converters and BMS won't break most banks when you look at it that way ... way way less than a thousand. If you are a live aboard 48v is a no brainer ... if you are the casual sailor, then those higher capacities and such probably don't factor in and I'd take the cheapest route given the situation. Although my wife just read this over my shoulder and commented ..."yeah but boys will be boys" bring on another thousand. Of whih I commented ... "but I named her after you." Good luck and have fun in your adventures.
@@MoneyPitBoating Was gonna reply with some joke about infinity ... But yeah, every hole is really a pit, because i don't have infinite money to put in it. I'll watch for my technical errors in the future ... thanks. :o)
Connect 4 12V batteries serially and you have a 48V battery. If your houshold appliances run on 12V, have at least 5 12V batteries. Use 4 for the engine, 1 for the household.
I am a rare (temporary) 12v electric drive. I will keep it as a backup. Even my original intent of having everything at 24v standard just seemed impractical at device cost and availability. Much larger craft length is entirely different. When a more advanced electric motor is invested in it is most likely 36v + this becomes the dominant battery bank with stepdown charging a house service bank.
I have 72v 18kw motor and a 72 v 48 kwh battery bank and a 72 volt inverter . Use battery chargers from inverter to charge separate 12v lipo batteries for house windlass and electric halyard winches Not the most efficient but cheap and works Also allows for use of ac tools and appliances.
I know its been awhile since this video was posted but couldn't you wire 4 -12 volt batteries in series then tap in at 12 volt point for house electronics? ..or is it not that simple?
Hello, just watched a few of ur vids, luv the presentation, so subbed. The thing that puzzles me... If going ALL elec, why consider/need 12>48v requirements (for new build or rewire), rather than setting up like an off-grid house, 48v bank > 230V Inverter, use much better value 240v industrial motors ( I.e. 240v Windlass) & domestic appliances?
As I understand it, there is a limit to battery draw. its called Max. Discharge Current. So I did not follow the bit about converting 48 to 12 as a system. Converting to 12 from 48 via Victron 48/12/30 for charging 12 v bank ,sure. if your inverting and converting and running the windless, I think it would be impossible assuming your bank was not 3000amps or some massive number. However its a good topic of conversation and for sure the future. cheers
I'm not sure the question. if you have a 48v bank and 12v bank with a windlass. 12v bank would drain while the windlass was running because the 30a 48-12v charger would not keep up. but once the windlass stopped the battery would continue charge up again.
12V , 24V & 48V all on one Boat, a 1997 Manta 40 Sailing Catamaran, 12V Ship Systems (& Back up 3000W Inverter), 24V (Refrigeration Primarily) 48V 12Kw POD Drives & 3500W Inverter. Off Grid 6 months now, all good except Torqeedo screwed me withholding the Regen unless I buy their $24,000.00 Batteries :-(
If 15 horsepower is enough to move the boat, get a beat-up old golf cart, you should be able to get a working one for under $1,000. Take the motor, speed controller and batteries. It will probably be 48 volt, possibly 24. Get your inverter to match the golf cart voltage. Now you have everything including the house batteries and propulsion.
Yup I did my buddies boat that way with a Frankensteined E-Z-Go cart from Craig's list for $500 ... just had to get a different speed controller because the golf cart accelerator didn't fit in his helm stalk and he wanted it pretty instead of Frankenstein. 7kw motor maxed 185 amps from 8, 6v batteries, contactor, converter, and on/off/reverse switch from the cart. Stainless steel box with a fan for the mount. Had to limit it to 100 amps or the prop would cavitate under his 27 footer. Electric motor torque is no joke. The batteries don't get him more than 20 minutes at 4 knots though (old batteries) ... I was gonna set him up with solar and what not but he says it's good enough to get him to where he can hoist a sail.
Hey Jeff, Im currently attending IYRS in Newport RI to get my ABYC and NMEA certs. When going out into the field, would you say it is better to work for a single contractor, or a big boat yard?
Love this conversation - I have a 200ah 48v LiFePO4 system (10kw) with a 48v Victron Quattro as my inverter charger. Currently I still have the Yanmar but that will be changed out next fall for electric drive. The 48v powers the original house 12v system that has 240ah (3kw) of 12v that is charged by a Vicron Orion TR-48/12-20. Now the question - What voltage do you suggest setting the Orion TR-48/12-20 at for the original lead acid bank? I'm keeping the lead until the starting functionality isn't needed anymore, then it will become LiFePO4 and only run house loads.
Your lead acid battery manufacturer should have precise recommendations for a 3 stage charging. Generally, for a 12 VDC lead acid battery, they are 14.4 VDC for bulk / absorption and 13.3/13.4 VDC for float charging.
48 volt windless is available that solves the big wire to windless however 48 volt at bow humm. As far as refrigerators and bow trusters not there yet.
Can I take a 12v battery INPUT to a 240v inverter OUTPUT to an ac electric motor, then add an alternator and take the alternator to a 1 into 2 splitter n split the charge between 2 other batteries and connect the 2 batteries together and run the wires back to the original inverter or battery? So basically its, single battery to inverter, inverter to ac motor, alternator connected and going back to 2 other batteries, single wire from both batteries back to original battery or inverter. Or will I burn the alternator or damage the batteries
Hi Jeff, I've been looking into removing Twin diesel Cat 3208's from a Gulfstar 44' Motor Yacht(36K lbs.) in favor of an Electric Motor Conversion. The Elco EP100(Which I'm leaning towards)runs on 144v and most others run on 48v. I was wondering if one has any advantages over the other as far as performance or efficiency goes ? 🤔 I would appreciate any feedback and suggestions as I respect your knowledge and opinion‼️ Thank you, have a Great Day and Stay Safe ‼️ 😊 P.S. I will be running with 3- Battery Banks. One for each Motor and a Separate Bank for the House.
Getting over 48vdc becomes a whole nother game and becomes dangerous to work with. Note that most marine breakers, battery switches etc are only rated up to 48v. So you will be moving into specialized equipment with different certifications for the higher voltage. I have never worked on anything over 48v dc
Huh, do many people actually install electric motors? I thought it would take quite a lot of investment to replace engine and electric and you would get a couple of hours of run time out of full batteries at most. Does anyone have a good experience with it?
A fair number of the UA-cam sailing couples use electric. I think what makes it work for them is that they aren't on a schedule. They don't have to get back to the marina by the end of the weekend. Sailing Uma has documented their history with electric motors, starting with a DIY forklift motor. ua-cam.com/play/PLx_mGFQfb39FXu_oCzggYfkeRKYkI6xpi.html
There are actually quite a few people who do switch over to electric propulsion, a number of live aboard/long distance sailors here on UA-cam for example :) Rigging Doctor and Sailing Uma are 2 of them. I'm planning to go electric on my boat but I'm building the boat from a finished hull so don't have a diesel or an electric system installed yet :) But, you have to be a sailor that actually prefers to sail if you want to go with electric propulsion, since as you say, you won't get the same range as with a diesel.
My boat, Landing School 26 (sail) was built with an electric engine in 96. I have owned since 2020 and it is fantastic. I don’t need to go for more than an hour at a time, which is fine for weekend sailing. I can go for about 3 hrs. - 3.5-4.5 knots full speed with 48V 100ah agm - D&D motor & alltrax controller. The best part is the maintenance and winterization - which is almost none.
Ouch. Electric is too expensive. I like my air cooled Chinese 168F diesel engine. It's 44 LBS and $209 plus hardware. A smaller diesel moves the emphasis from speed to charge. I like fresh highway diesel fuel instead of dock diesel and old boat tanks. A seven inch pulley and alternator will charge the house battery very well, and I can omit lithium batteries. The dry heat is welcome on a sailboat. Salt water cooling is a disaster. Electric is just too expensive, heavy, and laborious to keep charged.
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I have a single 48v bank with conversion. I am using 2 48/12 30a step down converters for my switched distribution and 1 48/12 20a step down converter for my unswitched distribution. I also have a 48 volt 2200 watt inverter charger for my ac distribution.
Hi James, thanks for sharing. Which step down converters are you using? What is the make and model of your 48 VDC inverter/charger?
@@PacificYachtSystems My step down converters are uxcell for the 2 30 amps and BZONE for the 20 amp. For the Inverter, I have a Spartan Power inverter model SP-IC2248 that I went with for a few reasons. It has an automatic neutral-to-ground disconnect that you can physically hear, and it has a conformal coating to resist corrosion on the circuit boards. It was very affordable as well at $699 when I bought it. They have not had them in stock for a while however.
I have separate 48v (200ah) and 12v (200ah) banks on my holland 30 (on my channel). I have 2 separate solar banks linked to victron contollers for each of the battery banks. Some reasons for this approach were; the existing 12v system max draw is unknown, house loads wouldn't deplete the drive battery, 12v bank was already in there and upgraded so why take it out, reduce the charge cycles of the drive battery/increase battery life
One of the big advantages of running as much 48V equipment as possible is you can run thinner wire gage (less $$'s) for same power consumption. However, finding 48V equivalent equipment is problematic as you mentioned.
If I had a 48v windlass, I'd much prefer to run the wires rated for that current than to run the wires rated for equivalent 12v current. If I had a 48v windlass.
Thanks for sharing.
Yes!
Please talk all day about this. My installation has been sidetracked for awhile, but I’m sitting here looking at a 10kw electric motor, 4 12v 100 amp hour LiFePo to be wired in series for a 48v bank. 2x 200w 24v solar panels also to be wired in series, a Victron Smartsolar 48v MPPT 100/20. The 48v bank will charge the 12v/100ah house LiFePo via a Victron Orion Tr 48/12-30 dc to dc converter. I also have splurged on a Victron Quattro 48v/3000w/35-50 inverter charger for AC and quick charging at dock.
I’m still working on my homework from your channel and reading Nigel’s book as this is all pretty new to me. An interesting thing for anyone doing this to keep in mind from my own experience, it looks like only t-fuses for the higher voltage. Easy to find right amperage, difficult to find high enough voltage. I have a question.
Can I run my 12v dc to dc, my Inverter/charger, and my motor controller, all back to the same pos. and neg. distribution bus of the 48v bank if the bus bar’s voltage and amperage ratings are high enough?
And lol, of course, if anyone wants to hold my hand through installing all this…lol
Hi Anthony, don't see why you couldn't connect all your 48 VDC loads to positive and negative bus bars from your 48 VDC bank. Make sure all your circuits are fused.
Hey cool video... I'm building a solar Cat (similar to Silent 55). I am waiting for a 84kw battery bank (48v) that will be recharged by a 9kw solar system... My issue with another batery bank is that the house will draw a lot in days we dont move and I would need a very large 12v battery bank too... thus it's HEAVY and expensive. So what I plan is to have 2x 20Amp converter for 24v (toilet, windlass) and 1 12v converter for small things like lights... Other big apparel like fridge and thermopump will be on 110V drawn from the inverter... This way I finf I save MORE on weight and $$ AND a way that I still don't know to recharge this new 12v... As all my panels are focussed to the motors when I need to move... Great video, great topic, thanks !
My surplus military 48 volt propulsion motor has a built-in 14 volt permanent magnet generator. Works great as a 60 amp rotory converter any time the prop is spinning. Charging two seperate battery banks. 48 volt propulsion with solar. 12 volt house with pmg voltage regulator. The Downside is the motor's 200 lb weight. Awesome regen sailing at 6 knots.
We're looking to purchase a houseboat that needs new engines and replace with electric inboard motors, rather than putting in diesel motors.
The boat is likely to be 14ftx60ft, or so. We want to use most of the upper deck for solar panels (probably 6kw-8kw, or more, if the panels will fit). We intend to employ used solar panels that have been on a corporate lease and used for about five years, or so, to save money on the panels. And, I would install them myself.
We intend to do as you suggest and have separate battery banks - one 12v 5 kwh bank of LiFePO4 batteries for house loads, one 51.2 volt 30 kwh bank for use with a 12kw inverter for AC loads, and a dedicated 48-96 volt (or higher, depending on the motors used) LiFePO4 bank for propulsion.
We are looking to cruise the Intracoastal Waterway only and not go out into the open ocean. And, we are looking to cruise at 5-7 knots - we're not in a hurry to go anywhere. We would likely travel only 30 miles per day, or so. And, we want to do this as economically as possible, without underpowering the houseboat.
We're new to boating and have never owned one. So, while I have a good feel for the electronic aspects of the project of powering the 12 volt DC loads and the house AC loads, I don't have a good feel for the size of the electric drive motors we should use for a houseboat. And, I would like to use the same solar array for charging the 12 volt, the 48 volt, and the battery bank for the propulsion motors. So, what I would like from you is some advice on:
1 - Sizing the electric motors to be used for propulsion.
2 - Sizing the battery bank for the motors.
3 - Using the same solar array for charging all three battery banks.
Thanks for any insight you might be able to provide to help us accomplish our goals!
Jeff,
I have been a follower for quite some time. I really enjoy your videos and the website.
I am in the 3rd year of a 4 year refit of a 1975 Pearson 419 Center Cockpit Ketch. One of the main areas for the refit was propulsion. We have implemented a Quiet Torque 20 electric engine from Electric Yacht. For this, we have a 48V 440Ah battery bank for propulsion - these are Firefly batteries. We have a 12V 400Ah lithium bank (we plan on growing it) for our house bank. As you suggested we convert from 48 -> 12V using the Victron converter with a 12 - 12 / 30A DC-DC charger to top off the bank (we can add more of each to increase the charge if needed).
Our propulsion bank uses 48V Delta-Q chargers connected to an isolation transformer to charge from shore power. We also have a Victron Multiplus Inverter/Charger connected to an isolation transformer to charge the 12V house bank from shore power.
We plan on adding solar to charge the propulsion bank and then through the conversion topping off the house bank. You asked for others who are doing the same thing, so I hope this helps.
Regards,
Ricky Tapper
Thanks Ricky for sharing, nice to see what you are doing on your Pearson 419.
I have 96 v drive motor on my boat. Supplying it is 2 banks of 48v battery banks. These are charged though 2 banks of solar.
The house and working equipment is off a 12v 300amh battery. This is charged from one bank of 48v bank through an mppt charge controller. Ultimately the one 48v bank just tops up the boat 12v system untill we need to run the motor. It's still under build process so is untested as yet.
Fingers crossed.
Big House Yachts is building the Whitacre 47’ catamaran in Anacortes, WA. A boat this size would require pounds and $$ of copper wire if it remained 12 or even 24v. Instead, a 48v battery bank will support a 48v backbone throughout the vessel. At various points, Victron 48-12 DC-DC converters will be used to support 12v systems. Each of these points will have separate circuit breaker panels further reducing the copper wire needs. 48v winches and windlass will be installed also eliminating the high 12v loads.
Propulsion will be a 48v electric motor on the port side and a Yanmar diesel to starboard. A DC-DC converter along with a 12v start battery will support the Yanmar.
Hey TC Skeels, sounds like an interesting project. 48 volts is so tempting, as you say you can run large loads like inverter, winches, windlass all at 48 VDC.
Question, what is the alternator output (12 or 48 VDC) of the Yanmar diesel on starboard?
I've been playing the 48/12 game for years now, and I'm actually wondering when we'll start seeing higher voltages and how I could handle that. 48v limits you to about 20hp because you reach 4/0 cable sizes to feed it, and then you start doubling cables and moving to bus bars and solutions start getting crazy. Higher DC voltages come with their own problems, and dangers, but they do let you use human sized cables. A bigger deal though is that it would allow the use of the same motors used in electric cars that are running 350 to 450 volts to deliver hundreds of horse power. More than a sailboat really needs, but puts the 60 to 100hp range of motors on the table at a reasonable price. Of course it creates a new puzzle for the power needs of a windlass, chart plotter, and an Instapot.
Thanks for the input.
48v is more efficient ... from scratch, it is the way to go IMO. There is always nrg loss from the source to where it is used so you effectively increase your storage capacity with higher efficiency and at a higher rate of conversion. [Power loss(watts) = I²(current)R(resistance)] 12v requires 4 times the amps that 48v does for the same power P=IV. Along the wire, resistance increases with distance linearly, so current drain must make up the difference for a set power requirement. The longer the wire the worse it gets. Solar for a 48v bank is cheaper the higher the capacity required. 48v to 24v or 12v converters are ubiquitous these days and are much like electronic speed controllers that use pulse width modulation sent through a capacitor to smooth down the peak, If you can read instructions it should not really be a consideration on your appliance choices. With a BMS (battery management system), you set the minimum capacity of your bank to devote to propulsion so you won't empty your 'fuel tank' for your motor. There are blue tooth apps for BMS that allow you to adjust these on the fly via your smart phone. Some of these are Pro's that some will consider cons. A BMS is just part of the design as far as I am concerned and more practical than insurance. The con is you may have to learn a few things. The con of cost applies if you already have a 12v system for the house bank (most probably already do unless you are talking about a total gut job restoration type thing). There is a fairly large if not the largest percentage of folks that this will definitely register as a con.
48/12v ... If you already have a 12v system, the advantage is ... you already have it and save the cost and headache of replacing it. Your 12v house bank doesn't risk your propulsion bank and vise versa so you really don't need a BMS if you think that way. You can series up a 12v bank of 4 and make it a 48v in a pinch. You don't have to worry about learning a few things. On the other side ... you need two separate solar set ups and 12v is much less efficient and cost more to convert sunlight into juice in the battery bank (because of wire size and length - resistance). Your bank capacity is limited by the conversion rate for a single system because solar controllers available can only handle a limited voltage input which limits the number of panels that can feed it. 48v controllers have a much higher range of voltage inputs so you can use multiple larger panels at higher voltages. This effectively makes solar for 12v more expensive and slower to fill a large house battery bank. If you only need a small 12v house battery bank and you can get away with a cheap controller with a couple of panels on a smaller boat you might be able to save a bit overall so for some it may register as a pro not having to get converters or a BMS.
You have a boat ... otherwise know as a hole in the water ... Bring On Another Thousand ... so I won't piddle with the few dollars here and there about minor duplicate cost for things you need two of in a 48/12 configuration. But really, converters and BMS won't break most banks when you look at it that way ... way way less than a thousand.
If you are a live aboard 48v is a no brainer ... if you are the casual sailor, then those higher capacities and such probably don't factor in and I'd take the cheapest route given the situation. Although my wife just read this over my shoulder and commented ..."yeah but boys will be boys" bring on another thousand. Of whih I commented ... "but I named her after you."
Good luck and have fun in your adventures.
Thanks for sharing!
Boats aren't holes in the water... :-)
@@MoneyPitBoating Was gonna reply with some joke about infinity ... But yeah, every hole is really a pit, because i don't have infinite money to put in it. I'll watch for my technical errors in the future ... thanks. :o)
Connect 4 12V batteries serially and you have a 48V battery. If your houshold appliances run on 12V, have at least 5 12V batteries. Use 4 for the engine, 1 for the household.
Thank you so much. You captured all the information I needed in just minutes. This video just helped me make some BIG decisions
Glad it was helpful!
I am a rare (temporary) 12v electric drive. I will keep it as a backup. Even my original intent of having everything at 24v standard just seemed impractical at device cost and availability. Much larger craft length is entirely different. When a more advanced electric motor is invested in it is most likely 36v + this becomes the dominant battery bank with stepdown charging a house service bank.
Braith, thanks for the input.
I have 72v 18kw motor and a 72 v 48 kwh battery bank and a 72 volt inverter . Use battery chargers from inverter to charge separate 12v lipo batteries for house windlass and electric halyard winches Not the most efficient but cheap and works Also allows for use of ac tools and appliances.
Love watching your tech talk. Learn so much!
Awesome, thank you!
Great topic selection! Thanks Jeff great video!
My pleasure!
I know its been awhile since this video was posted but couldn't you wire 4 -12 volt batteries in series then tap in at 12 volt point for house electronics? ..or is it not that simple?
Hello, just watched a few of ur vids, luv the presentation, so subbed.
The thing that puzzles me... If going ALL elec, why consider/need 12>48v requirements (for new build or rewire), rather than setting up like an off-grid house, 48v bank > 230V Inverter, use much better value 240v industrial motors ( I.e. 240v Windlass) & domestic appliances?
Hey, how can I charge my 12v battery bank with a 24v victron charger
As I understand it, there is a limit to battery draw. its called Max. Discharge Current. So I did not follow the bit about converting 48 to 12 as a system. Converting to 12 from 48 via Victron 48/12/30 for charging 12 v bank ,sure. if your inverting and converting and running the windless, I think it would be impossible assuming your bank was not 3000amps or some massive number. However its a good topic of conversation and for sure the future. cheers
I'm not sure the question. if you have a 48v bank and 12v bank with a windlass. 12v bank would drain while the windlass was running because the 30a 48-12v charger would not keep up. but once the windlass stopped the battery would continue charge up again.
12V , 24V & 48V all on one Boat, a 1997 Manta 40 Sailing Catamaran, 12V Ship Systems (& Back up 3000W Inverter), 24V (Refrigeration Primarily) 48V 12Kw POD Drives & 3500W Inverter. Off Grid 6 months now, all good except Torqeedo screwed me withholding the Regen unless I buy their $24,000.00 Batteries :-(
If 15 horsepower is enough to move the boat, get a beat-up old golf cart, you should be able to get a working one for under $1,000. Take the motor, speed controller and batteries. It will probably be 48 volt, possibly 24. Get your inverter to match the golf cart voltage. Now you have everything including the house batteries and propulsion.
Interesting.
Yup I did my buddies boat that way with a Frankensteined E-Z-Go cart from Craig's list for $500 ... just had to get a different speed controller because the golf cart accelerator didn't fit in his helm stalk and he wanted it pretty instead of Frankenstein. 7kw motor maxed 185 amps from 8, 6v batteries, contactor, converter, and on/off/reverse switch from the cart. Stainless steel box with a fan for the mount. Had to limit it to 100 amps or the prop would cavitate under his 27 footer. Electric motor torque is no joke. The batteries don't get him more than 20 minutes at 4 knots though (old batteries) ... I was gonna set him up with solar and what not but he says it's good enough to get him to where he can hoist a sail.
Have similar setup. D&D Series Motor w/ Alltrax controller with 48V 100ah - for 26ft Landing School. Works great. 2-3 hrs run time. Love it.
Hey Jeff, Im currently attending IYRS in Newport RI to get my ABYC and NMEA certs. When going out into the field, would you say it is better to work for a single contractor, or a big boat yard?
Love this conversation - I have a 200ah 48v LiFePO4 system (10kw) with a 48v Victron Quattro as my inverter charger. Currently I still have the Yanmar but that will be changed out next fall for electric drive. The 48v powers the original house 12v system that has 240ah (3kw) of 12v that is charged by a Vicron Orion TR-48/12-20. Now the question - What voltage do you suggest setting the Orion TR-48/12-20 at for the original lead acid bank? I'm keeping the lead until the starting functionality isn't needed anymore, then it will become LiFePO4 and only run house loads.
Your lead acid battery manufacturer should have precise recommendations for a 3 stage charging. Generally, for a 12 VDC lead acid battery, they are 14.4 VDC for bulk / absorption and 13.3/13.4 VDC for float charging.
How do you get your Orion 48/12 to do the 3 stage charging? Isn't it just a CONSTANT conversion?
48 volt windless is available that solves the big wire to windless however 48 volt at bow humm. As far as refrigerators and bow trusters not there yet.
Thanks for sharing.
Can I take a 12v battery INPUT to a 240v inverter OUTPUT to an ac electric motor, then add an alternator and take the alternator to a 1 into 2 splitter n split the charge between 2 other batteries and connect the 2 batteries together and run the wires back to the original inverter or battery? So basically its, single battery to inverter, inverter to ac motor, alternator connected and going back to 2 other batteries, single wire from both batteries back to original battery or inverter. Or will I burn the alternator or damage the batteries
Hi Jeff, I've been looking into removing Twin diesel Cat 3208's from a Gulfstar 44' Motor Yacht(36K lbs.) in favor of an Electric Motor Conversion. The Elco EP100(Which I'm leaning towards)runs on 144v and most others run on 48v. I was wondering if one has any advantages over the other as far as performance or efficiency goes ? 🤔
I would appreciate any feedback and suggestions as I respect your knowledge and opinion‼️
Thank you, have a Great Day and Stay Safe ‼️ 😊
P.S. I will be running with 3- Battery Banks. One for each Motor and a Separate Bank for the House.
Getting over 48vdc becomes a whole nother game and becomes dangerous to work with. Note that most marine breakers, battery switches etc are only rated up to 48v. So you will be moving into specialized equipment with different certifications for the higher voltage. I have never worked on anything over 48v dc
So you set batteries up so you can create a 12 to 24 than 48.
Yep.
Actually a dc could use all volts. 12 24 48 don’t use a converter. Use the old electric cart slider on brass. And resister wires.
Thanks for sharing.
Huh, do many people actually install electric motors? I thought it would take quite a lot of investment to replace engine and electric and you would get a couple of hours of run time out of full batteries at most. Does anyone have a good experience with it?
A fair number of the UA-cam sailing couples use electric. I think what makes it work for them is that they aren't on a schedule. They don't have to get back to the marina by the end of the weekend.
Sailing Uma has documented their history with electric motors, starting with a DIY forklift motor.
ua-cam.com/play/PLx_mGFQfb39FXu_oCzggYfkeRKYkI6xpi.html
Hi Alexander, you're correct, going to electrical propulsion doesn't make sense to everyone.
There are actually quite a few people who do switch over to electric propulsion, a number of live aboard/long distance sailors here on UA-cam for example :) Rigging Doctor and Sailing Uma are 2 of them.
I'm planning to go electric on my boat but I'm building the boat from a finished hull so don't have a diesel or an electric system installed yet :)
But, you have to be a sailor that actually prefers to sail if you want to go with electric propulsion, since as you say, you won't get the same range as with a diesel.
My boat, Landing School 26 (sail) was built with an electric engine in 96. I have owned since 2020 and it is fantastic. I don’t need to go for more than an hour at a time, which is fine for weekend sailing. I can go for about 3 hrs. - 3.5-4.5 knots full speed with 48V 100ah agm - D&D motor & alltrax controller. The best part is the maintenance and winterization - which is almost none.
Aka a real sailor. Its sad the majority of boats motorsail so much.
Ouch. Electric is too expensive. I like my air cooled Chinese 168F diesel engine. It's 44 LBS and $209 plus hardware. A smaller diesel moves the emphasis from speed to charge. I like fresh highway diesel fuel instead of dock diesel and old boat tanks. A seven inch pulley and alternator will charge the house battery very well, and I can omit lithium batteries. The dry heat is welcome on a sailboat. Salt water cooling is a disaster. Electric is just too expensive, heavy, and laborious to keep charged.
state the obvious lol