I haven't played Teeth enough to really assess these changes but I like your tweaks to the cards. Feels so bad when your partner can't use the Gift of Furious Might. "Do you want X?" should get "sure! " or "maybe next turn is better?" not "meh, not really".
I've been introducing SI to some friends recently and Teeth has been a big hit with first time players. It's straight forward, it's damage focused which makes the player feel active on the island, and high energy low plays is what I find most new players gravitate towards. So as an introductory spirit to get people in and enjoying the game, I think Teeth works great. Sure the other intro spirits may teach the mechanics better but in my experience new players have more fun playing Teeth. At the end of the day, I'd rather my friends have fun with the game than understand the complexities of the game. That being said; yes, for players with more experience Teeth doesn't feel as satisfying as the other spirits. At that point though you've got a lot of other options to play. Once Horizons comes off Target exclusive I'd love to see GTG throw Teeth an aspect to fix some of the problems you point out to give it some new life. But again as a beginner spirit, I've got no complaints.
This is the one I've been waiting for. I've made several vocal appeals about this spirit both on your channel, BGG, and the discord. Its screaming into the wind of course, but if there is one thing gamers love to do, its rant. So here we go... I love Dune, I love Tremors. Two of my favorite spirits are Sharp Fangs and Vital Strength, and Devouring Teeth has elements of both. I really like the Fire/Animal minors and majors. I even love 0 range mobile spirits. So for Devouring Teeth to come out as subpar as he did was a major letdown. First and Foremost, I think the biggest problem is that his starting cards give him too complete a toolkit. With 1/1/1 spirits, reclaim loops are basically never bad as long as you have the tools to handle everything on the board. With a defend, a gather, and tons of damage, he really doesn't have to go looking for anything. To me the problem card is, surprisingly, Ferocious Rampage. Between this and his innate, (and gift in solo) he can put out an huge amounts of damage starting turn 1 and never stops. But the real reason to go after it instead of his defense or utility cards is his special rule. See, Devouring Teeth's special rule railroads him into taking damage cards. Turning any 1 damage card into a town killer is huge, and usually powers a card up to the point that other options aren't good enough. If you are going to limit part of his toolkit, then give him reason to go looking for the card type he wants to pick anyway. Which is why I think going after Ferocious Rampage makes the most sense. Limiting or replacing it means he relies more on his innate for early damage, and could have more control options while he builds up into a powerhouse damage dealer. The last major problem I see is that his top track is just not good enough. Usually top track strategies have good elements on them to help trigger the innate since they have fewer card plays. But to gate his 3 plays, the Developers put most of the useful early elements on the bottom track. This means that bottom track not only gets more plays, but a higher level innate as well. Top track gets nothing to compete, and the energy growth, while above average, but nothing special. (especially considering the 1.5 average energy cost of his unique cards) I feel like he needs both bigger energy spikes earlier AND a second element on the top track sooner. For solutions, I likewise haven't figured it all out. 1/1/1 spirits can be tricky to make interesting because of how predictable their growth patterns are. Vital Strength works because its special rule can often handle multiple lands on its own in the early parts of the game, while Sharp Fangs has a powerful fast innate, reclaims on the bottom track, good elements on the top track, and flexible growth options. Devouring Teeth is far slower, doesn't have a special rule that handles lands, and has fewer control options than either. Its track is also incredibly long, (12 turns to clear) and its special rule dictates what kind of cards it wants to take. As for your suggested changes: * I don't really mind the special rule. It may not feel as impactful for majors, but its definitely noticeable. Its cleanly written for newbies, and elegant in its simplicity. One change I did consider is changing it to +1 damage per presence in the target land, which would enable some shenanigans with allies and sacred sites. * The +1 damage on the track is a cool idea. I also agree though that it might be too much for a low complexity spirit. * I actually rather like Mark Territory. I have a feeling they didn't want to print another 'skip ravage' card again as Rising Heat already had that effect. This was a decent way to print a similar effect so you don't take blight and lose presence before your slow spells trigger. It would be a lot more interesting a card though if he had other tools to make even a small amount of use from that Dahan movement. I've had games with things like Vigor of the Breaking Dawn which make the forced movement feel a lot better - even casting it for the Dahan push instead of the defend. * The gift self targeting is probably a good change. Its an incredibly powerful spell, but its just nuts in solo. If you wanted a perfect element card, I think the boon is usually a good place to put it rather than Mark Territory. * Herd Toward the Maw is the card I actually think does need a buff. Compare to something like Visions of Fiery Doom and it feels lackluster as a slow gather with few elements, no range, only pushing 1 town, and still costing an energy.
I came into playtesting at the start of NI (right after they finished with Horizons). I played a lot of games the first week (of just horizon content) and I told them Teeth needs emergency help, but it was too late.. Overall, I think the spirit is pretty good for players, I just know it could be a lot better. Fun fact, Herd was nerfed at the last minute because it had some oppressive reclaim loop builds (turns out it was a Teeth problem more than a Herd problem).
I could use a time up, I think just moving the 3 plays one space earlier would do about everything Teeth needs. But I actually enjoy the struggle of teeth, I think the minor deck is full of good hits. Absolutely agree that Mark Territory should be full element, feels like a mistake that it’s not.
Lots of ways to make Teeth more enjoyable. Alot of 111 spirits have that pattern along bottom track, so I was thinking that teeth could break that "mold". We tried doing this with HV and Roots, but neither spirit could function (in a fun way) with a large delay along bottom track.
Interesting, because I do find the struggle fun with teeth. But I go for two-three card drafts. But most animal minors are strong and some of them easily sub in for the start cards. Veil is pretty broken, +1 damage early and in solo it becomes a major in the late game. Could you try a matchup or two with them where you draft multiple cards early?
Are you sure that this version gift of furious might would be good enough to play in solo? Sure +3 is a bit too much, but +1 for one energy seems very weak. Why not +2 on self +3 on others?
+2 might be too good on yourself. I don’t think you’d ever give the power out since the extra damage on yourself is so strong. I do agree that +1 for 1 is on the weaker end.
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I haven't played Teeth enough to really assess these changes but I like your tweaks to the cards. Feels so bad when your partner can't use the Gift of Furious Might. "Do you want X?" should get "sure! " or "maybe next turn is better?" not "meh, not really".
I've been introducing SI to some friends recently and Teeth has been a big hit with first time players. It's straight forward, it's damage focused which makes the player feel active on the island, and high energy low plays is what I find most new players gravitate towards. So as an introductory spirit to get people in and enjoying the game, I think Teeth works great. Sure the other intro spirits may teach the mechanics better but in my experience new players have more fun playing Teeth. At the end of the day, I'd rather my friends have fun with the game than understand the complexities of the game.
That being said; yes, for players with more experience Teeth doesn't feel as satisfying as the other spirits. At that point though you've got a lot of other options to play. Once Horizons comes off Target exclusive I'd love to see GTG throw Teeth an aspect to fix some of the problems you point out to give it some new life. But again as a beginner spirit, I've got no complaints.
Completely agree! I think all 5 Horizon spirits hit it out of the park as beginner spirits!
This is the one I've been waiting for. I've made several vocal appeals about this spirit both on your channel, BGG, and the discord. Its screaming into the wind of course, but if there is one thing gamers love to do, its rant. So here we go...
I love Dune, I love Tremors. Two of my favorite spirits are Sharp Fangs and Vital Strength, and Devouring Teeth has elements of both. I really like the Fire/Animal minors and majors. I even love 0 range mobile spirits. So for Devouring Teeth to come out as subpar as he did was a major letdown.
First and Foremost, I think the biggest problem is that his starting cards give him too complete a toolkit. With 1/1/1 spirits, reclaim loops are basically never bad as long as you have the tools to handle everything on the board. With a defend, a gather, and tons of damage, he really doesn't have to go looking for anything. To me the problem card is, surprisingly, Ferocious Rampage. Between this and his innate, (and gift in solo) he can put out an huge amounts of damage starting turn 1 and never stops. But the real reason to go after it instead of his defense or utility cards is his special rule.
See, Devouring Teeth's special rule railroads him into taking damage cards. Turning any 1 damage card into a town killer is huge, and usually powers a card up to the point that other options aren't good enough. If you are going to limit part of his toolkit, then give him reason to go looking for the card type he wants to pick anyway. Which is why I think going after Ferocious Rampage makes the most sense. Limiting or replacing it means he relies more on his innate for early damage, and could have more control options while he builds up into a powerhouse damage dealer.
The last major problem I see is that his top track is just not good enough. Usually top track strategies have good elements on them to help trigger the innate since they have fewer card plays. But to gate his 3 plays, the Developers put most of the useful early elements on the bottom track. This means that bottom track not only gets more plays, but a higher level innate as well. Top track gets nothing to compete, and the energy growth, while above average, but nothing special. (especially considering the 1.5 average energy cost of his unique cards) I feel like he needs both bigger energy spikes earlier AND a second element on the top track sooner.
For solutions, I likewise haven't figured it all out. 1/1/1 spirits can be tricky to make interesting because of how predictable their growth patterns are. Vital Strength works because its special rule can often handle multiple lands on its own in the early parts of the game, while Sharp Fangs has a powerful fast innate, reclaims on the bottom track, good elements on the top track, and flexible growth options. Devouring Teeth is far slower, doesn't have a special rule that handles lands, and has fewer control options than either. Its track is also incredibly long, (12 turns to clear) and its special rule dictates what kind of cards it wants to take.
As for your suggested changes:
* I don't really mind the special rule. It may not feel as impactful for majors, but its definitely noticeable. Its cleanly written for newbies, and elegant in its simplicity. One change I did consider is changing it to +1 damage per presence in the target land, which would enable some shenanigans with allies and sacred sites.
* The +1 damage on the track is a cool idea. I also agree though that it might be too much for a low complexity spirit.
* I actually rather like Mark Territory. I have a feeling they didn't want to print another 'skip ravage' card again as Rising Heat already had that effect. This was a decent way to print a similar effect so you don't take blight and lose presence before your slow spells trigger. It would be a lot more interesting a card though if he had other tools to make even a small amount of use from that Dahan movement. I've had games with things like Vigor of the Breaking Dawn which make the forced movement feel a lot better - even casting it for the Dahan push instead of the defend.
* The gift self targeting is probably a good change. Its an incredibly powerful spell, but its just nuts in solo. If you wanted a perfect element card, I think the boon is usually a good place to put it rather than Mark Territory.
* Herd Toward the Maw is the card I actually think does need a buff. Compare to something like Visions of Fiery Doom and it feels lackluster as a slow gather with few elements, no range, only pushing 1 town, and still costing an energy.
I came into playtesting at the start of NI (right after they finished with Horizons). I played a lot of games the first week (of just horizon content) and I told them Teeth needs emergency help, but it was too late.. Overall, I think the spirit is pretty good for players, I just know it could be a lot better.
Fun fact, Herd was nerfed at the last minute because it had some oppressive reclaim loop builds (turns out it was a Teeth problem more than a Herd problem).
I could use a time up, I think just moving the 3 plays one space earlier would do about everything Teeth needs. But I actually enjoy the struggle of teeth, I think the minor deck is full of good hits. Absolutely agree that Mark Territory should be full element, feels like a mistake that it’s not.
Lots of ways to make Teeth more enjoyable. Alot of 111 spirits have that pattern along bottom track, so I was thinking that teeth could break that "mold". We tried doing this with HV and Roots, but neither spirit could function (in a fun way) with a large delay along bottom track.
Interesting, because I do find the struggle fun with teeth. But I go for two-three card drafts. But most animal minors are strong and some of them easily sub in for the start cards. Veil is pretty broken, +1 damage early and in solo it becomes a major in the late game.
Could you try a matchup or two with them where you draft multiple cards early?
@@sarahsloot2290 something to consider for a future video!
Are you sure that this version gift of furious might would be good enough to play in solo? Sure +3 is a bit too much, but +1 for one energy seems very weak. Why not +2 on self +3 on others?
Maybe it could refund one energy when used on yourself?
+2 might be too good on yourself. I don’t think you’d ever give the power out since the extra damage on yourself is so strong. I do agree that +1 for 1 is on the weaker end.
@@Desocupad0 likely too complicated for a low complexity spirit.
Are you going to do the same for previous spirits?
Yep!
Love these videos. Teeth is my least favorite horizon spirit. Eyes and whirlwind are my favorites
Same!