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Is Painting Warhammer ART?
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- Опубліковано 15 лют 2023
- With the Art vs Artists posts doing the rounds this Xmas, a question occured to me: Is painting toy soldiers ART? And if it isn't art, what is it? So now here's a rambling video with a load of random thoughts on the subject!
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Copyright: Unless noted in the video, all images © Games Workshop 1987-2022. Title music is 'Black Rainbows' by Karl Casey @White Bat Audio
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As Picasso once said: "if you do not paint your Blood Angels with Baal Red and instead paint them with Khorne Red, that's heresy!"
FOOL! you paint them with blood angels red, then a chariborgue crimison shade, then you layer Mephiston red! Picasso was a hack!
I'm sure it was devinci who said that
“All my models are proxies”
“Ugh, a Dadaist”
@@alastaircollins1145 nonsense! The Dadaist approach is to use sound in place of miniatures, half-way through the game punch your opponent, leap across the board, scream at a passer-by, stage a riot, then publish a zine about the whole encounter using words torn from a variety of magazines!
Proxying your army is, instead, the found art approach.
@@Fliss317 Fulgrim, is that you? ;)
I'm currently imagining some art critic trying to define art and Diogenes bursting through the door with a bunch of Warhammer figurines and screaming "BEHOLD - ART!"
Diogenes painting Tyranids out of his wine barrel.
I was thinking more Danny DeVito looking at a command unit and being like, "This tyrranid is smug"
Diogenes has a hodge podge army of models he has rescued, traded, and in the case of his "baneblade" repurposed from shoeboxes.
So I was actually thinking about this not too long ago, and I think you missed a big part of this, that a warhammer army is ideally, the product of time and effort put into it by creative choices. If you decide you are going to paint a unique scheme, or ultramarines, you are still making a creative decision, which on the tabletop, will convey a meaning to the other player. Even two people who both paint ultramarines, will still be unique in the small decisions they took in painting them(followed a citadel tutorial, used an airbrush, got it to tabletop standard, ect)
When someone makes a theme army, they are making one with the intent and purpose to convey a feeling to other people. When I decided to paint my Craftworld as Iybraesil, and bought extra female bodies because they canonically have a higher female population. That is sending a message. Or even if you make an army that is codex compliant, just as the Primarch intended.
These are all creative expressions that cannot help but be made when making a Warhammer army. So I don't think you necessarily need to make a mini into a diorama, for it to also be art.
Expression
Interesting, my thinking is that using creative skills to make creative decisions with an intended message doesn't automatically make something art. Even getting an emotional response doesn't auto make something art. its a layer deeper, TV ads are made by lots of creative and artistic people, and are designed to elicit an emotional reaction. What Ian considers as "art with meaning" is a message that reflects our world, which both tv ads and Warhammer are mostly at pains to distract you from.
I painted anti facist symbols on my harlies kill team, I still don't consider them "art". I also do not think something not being capital A Art devalues or diminishes their value or the skill of the creators. There is no wrong way to create or express yourself.
Art as a label is weird and tied into more than just meanings. There's the class & privilege's of those who have time to create and "the right education" to decide what is Art, weird weighting of certain mediums over others (Oil is serious paint, watercolour for hobbyists).
@@JasonPoley Well I'm of the opinion that it cant help be art even if it didn't want to, however another aspect of Warhammer specifically, is that its a game.
Games are at this point agreed to be art, in the same way that movies and other media are. However back in my "are games art" days, one of the things Games had to deal with, is that ownership of the message couldn't just belong to the creators, it needs to basically be shared by both(The Stanley Parable is about this divide for instance)
So you could think of the art not being the act of painting minis itself if you want, but it could be how you use them AS minis.
That would make it art more in the Theater way too, that the art is the narrative that you and the other players make together.
@@BARMN89 that's a really cool take, thanks!
@@BARMN89 absolutely brilliant point on games/minigaming as art in the way of theater
For what it's worth, I see the 28 movement as an artistic movement within the miniature wargames hobby.
I think this is genuinely your best video to date - insightful, intellectual and very well argued and artitculated. Superb stuff!
Thanks!
What an excellent presentation. I also like to hear about your day job, having majored in theatre. I went quickly from set design to animation, but I remember feeling that what I was doing at the time was very much art. While my role was largely making sure actors had somewhere to sit, the shape of the tree outside might have alluded to Character's feelings of betrayal by Other Character, and that counts!
See, as someone who decides what the tree looks like, the process is very much 'we want the audience to think X. What shape of tree will make them think X and also fit in the truck?'. So maybe it loses some of its mystique!
Some people I know swear blind that I don't enjoy films since studying screenwriting and learning about the craft of film-making many moons ago, which confuses the hell out of me, because they usually say this after I've been like "The animators who rigged this character's face for this one move did an INCREDIBLE job" and... how is that not an expression of enjoyment?
To me, removing the mystique gives you new avenues for finding, interpreting, and appreciating artistic expression more than it removes them :)
@@ArbitorIan , hope you know your sheet sizes! The amount of you artists who don’t know 2440 x 1220 drives us chippies mad. Is it any wonder we’re always so grumpy back stage? 😂
@@ArbitorIan that sounds like art to me! adjusting how we played songs on stage to best suit a live performance was a huge part of playing music. How to convey what we wanted to convey, how to maintain the proper feel and sound, but also not cost too much or be too confusing and fit the time frame we needed to fit. So much is in the limitations we have
@@ArbitorIan think losing mystique is exactly what you're talking about with the musical. Don't sell yourself short - it only feels obvious to you because you've done it a lot and the vast majority of people do FEEL big things at shows that theatre practitioners might consider rote or not so 'important'.
This is a strong contender for your best video yet! This level of thought, clarity and understanding is such a wonderful addition to the hobby.
FWIW, I aspire to craft. 😎
The more you inject creativity into a craft, the more it is art.
And being bad art doesn't make it not art :)
Yeah thats my Definition too
Yes, art is unnecessary work to embellish a craft. No meaning needed,just labour to create beauty. This is why modern art is heresy as it require zero effort and looks like a todler throwing a tantrum to be heard.
@@ericjome7284 so important to keep in mind
I do think that art being to a brief doesn't inherently exclude it from being art, much like you said - the Mona Lisa was commissioned by a noble family from Leonardo da Vinci, but no one denies it's art. I absolutely think that miniatures can be art, even if they only have meaning to the creator themself.
“if you work with your hands then you are a laborer. If you work with your hands and your head you are a craftsperson. If you work with your hands, head, and heart then you are an artist.’
Art
I remember seeing it argued (and I ***broadly*** agree, although I think this is an excellent video on some of the vagueness and nuance of the topic!) that "art" is basically any part of human endeavour that isn't directly tied to survival.
Making a song up about your cat? Art. Sewing embroidery on your clothes? Art. Colouring your cooking pots with different clay and glazes? Art. Painting a Space Marine? Art. Playing "poohsticks" with a twig you found? Art. If it's not hunting, cooking, making a fire, or making babies, it's art.
Obviously ALL of these have a benefit to us, emotionally and in terms of mental health, or life not being awful, and maybe even in terms of survival - after all, a cave painting might be considered "art", but it might be a way of explaining to the rest of the group how to hunt buffalo, right? And, sure, cooking meat kills parasites and bacteria, making it safer to eat, and there are plants you have to process to render them edible, but... that doesn't account for the "art" of cooking, eh?
Anyway, food for thought. Nice work Ian!
Now this is one if those videos of all time. Thanks for sharing your thoughts Ian It was rather illuminating and a take I've not seen anyone produce a video about to date. This topic is not one easily approached either without devolving into an incohesive mess. Bravo sir.
I’m going to place a little white card next to my army.
- Pergas SpaceWolves -
Acrylic on polystyrene and polyurethane resin.
Gary Keenan (2022)
Through the medium of contrast paints, the relative simplicity of the scheme is contrasted with the complexity of the resin, the modern manufacturing methods juxtaposed with the traditional Norse iconography of the Rout. Created with a deliberately imposed deadline forced upon the artist, the piece invites us to consider emotions surrounding obligation to a community, much as the ancient Norse might have felt themselves.
What would be the caption for mine? Look at all the pretty colours?
I've always been torn on this topic over the years, but (and it feels goofy to admit it), Gareth Nicholas's Dragon Prince that won Gold in 2014 legit moved me to tears. Every time I see it I am genuinely moved by the work that went into it and the incredible outcome. I suspect, in my own silly definition, that makes it art.
Lovely video, thanks!
And videos like this is why this is the best w40k hobby channel (in my humble opinion).
A good part of the hobby that is highly creative and pretty artistic at times is the building and basing of minis. Having a dynamic pose and interesting environment on the base can really elevate a mini from good to great
Thanks for the thoughtful discussion Ian, I appreciate the nuance you bring to this. I am an illustrator by trade who from time to time manages to put a few works together to hang in galleries and I also paint miniatures. While all are creative pursuits and use artistic skill only one of them are ‘capital a’ Art. The worth of these pursuits are not in whether they qualify as ‘Art’ rather in the purpose they serve. A defining feature of Art is an intrinsic mystery and unknown weaved into it, it’s purpose is to slow us down and allow us to sit with it, the ‘digestion’ takes much longer. When approaching miniature painting legibility and translatability is super important for its purpose as a game or display piece, no one wants to look at a miniature and wonder what it is. I’ve been awed and impressed by both artworks in galleries and warhammer pieces, but not for the same reasons and that’s ok, one is not more valid than the other.
I'm not even sure where to start.. but this video is one of your best videos to date!
These kinds of videos from @ArbitorIan are the reason why this channel is the only channel I have the full bell icon notifications on for. Thanks for the time and nuance you put into your work.
“Is X art” is always a pretentious and impossible question
Yes, and that's been the case for TOO LONG. So we're gonna answer it once and for all!
I would agree with you, but its also intent. Art as meaning = art as feeling. The artist creates with meaning/ themselves to project a feeling and feelings and meaning is elicited by the audience. This is where art comes from... sometimes that feeling is awe - hence 'art as skill' its is most commonly experienced within art as a category. However a strong narrative, and an evocative paint job does transcend the hobby into the realms of art. This is where playing a game - can become a work of art as well.... I'm an actor so I will always have a 'playfulness is the crux of our art form' bias but that essentially is it isn't it.
I think I prefer Adam Savage's terms making and maker to the words art and artist. Think it was in one of his q and a videos during COVID where he expressed his dislike for people who gatekeep the what is and isn't "making". If you make castles in Minecraft, do cross stitch or paint, it's the act of creativity that adds something new to the word that wasn't there before, that's what makes art in my mind.
Painting our little toy soldiers is definitely somewhere on that spectrum of creativity so if you want to think of it as art, then it's art and no one can tell you differently.
I used to make a living as a professional poet and one of the most respected people in that space said something along the lines of "you arent a poet until you write something that most people generally accept as a poem. But then after that, you can write anything you want, call it a poem and its a poem because you're a poet"
And I've always liked that approach. If we apply it to miniature painting, I figure if someone produces something with wargaming miniatures that most people look at and go "yea, thats art" then I think we can conclude that painting minis *can* be art but its not always art. And if someone produces something in the miniature painting world and says "this is art" then we have to take that assertion seriously. We can disagree, but it demands at least as much merit as some grouchy old dad getting dragged to the local modern art museum and proclaiming that he, too, could screen print campbells tomato soup cans and call it art.
I've enjoyed this channel previously, but I did not expect you to make the best "¿What constitutes art?" essay I've ever seen/read. ¡Absolutely fantastic, Ian!
At high skill levels, absolutely. I think that most people are essentially the equivalent of kids playing with paints, and that's fine; I'd argue that's not really "fine art"; it's more "hobby art". But the sort of stuff put out by really top end modelmakers or painters are absolutely creating works of art.
Erudite and fun as ever. Continuing to angle your channel in this direction every once in a while (in addition to all the fun toy soldier talk) would be very welcome. I'm very glad to support your hobby! (Same with Mira, say hi from this internet stranger when you see her!)
Excellent video. I think about this question a lot and honestly the best take I’ve heard came from a friend who is a tattooer. He said “tattoo flash is art, but once I’m putting it on you it becomes craft”
Art is about expression and education and meaning. Craft is strictly about application. If we take those two definitions then I think miniatures (like any other medium or tool) can go either way.
Painting a wall taupe? Probably craft. Painting an abstract because you feel sad? Probably art.
As art cannot be defined, it truly lives in the eyes of the beholder.
time to gather a dnd party and slay a beholder
@@lv100Alice lol
This is fantastic video. It has given me a lot to think about. For me it was craft depending on well how you painted it and only became art when you gave it the sauce with kit bash/diorama and lots of colour work. Please make more like this in the future. Keep up the good work.
I hope this channel continues to grow. It really is very good and completely different to other toy soldier content.
Great video 🙂
My feeling on these and similar issues is to not bother arguing the fuzzy middle. We can establish that someone white washing a fence isn't art, but someone painting a mural on a fence is. Everything in between, just choose what makes you happy.
I do like the idea it's something that "makes you feel". Will save that one.
Fascinating! Thank you
Ironic (maybe) that there's not much discussion here about games as art-- lots of talk in the ttrpg community about whether or not that is art. (The difference here possibly being the nature of actual play vs. battle reports?) I'm not asking "are games art?" but rather "is gameplay art?" Not filmed or otherwise externally observed, ephemeral play for its own sake. Or are games--play--their own thing? Not to get too in the weeds here, but part of what's prickly about these questions is the implied question could be interpreted as "Does what you're doing, how you spend your time, have meaning or value?" Put another way, "Painting little toy soldiers and playing pretend shoot em up, at your age? What are you doing with your life?"
Whether it's wargaming, role-playing, or comics, that's a question that to some degree or other has haunted me most of my life, and something I hear, fair or not, just below the surface of "but is it art?"
Great video- as someone who studied the philosophy of art I thought this was an excellent discussion.
Plus, got an answer about what your job is! 😊
Very much appreciated the middle section, as 'craft' is probably the term I would have used rather than 'art' for the most part (nuance!), but this is definitely a case where the discussion is more interesting than the actual question. Nice discussion :)
9:45 I FEEL this about minis; I see a new color scheme, and new way to base, new shades and colors on familiar pieces but it feels different and brings different responses and can ignite a multitude of inspiration. I can’t see how Warhammer isn’t art
Your standards are so high that it isn't surprising that this is a great video, but even with that expectation, this is one of the ones that I immediately shared with my hobby, and artist, and craftsman, and theatre friends. Clearly communicated and well executed as always, and a fantastic topic of discussion that I haven't seen handled at this level before. Thanks Ian!
I can’t define art, but I know it when I see it.
If someone thinks that their minis are art, who is anyone to deny them?
I really enjoyed this vid, its something I have been thinking alot about, what people call art and what art is... many thanks for this talk about art..
A short note, I saw an older 40k diorama of a crashed Eldar vehicle, an elder laying on the ground her armor half off and 3 Guardsmen standing around her one of them with his hands at his crotch, that certainly had "meaning" and made me think, but in a grimdark 40k fashion, so yeah...
God I hate that diorama, it's one of the many great shames of our community
If just flicking paint at a canvas (e.g. Jackson Pollock, and yes I DO think that's art) is considered art then absolutely, positively converting and painting miniatures is art. Even if your conversion and paint job is shit, it's art. If someone says otherwise they are just gatekeeping.
i think the thing so many people miss about warhammer mini painting as art, is that it's a unique art that is more for the artist than the viewer. when im painting/making an army and developing a backround for them, people..aren't going to see that backround by just looking at my army. sure they'll see a guy holding an ork head, another guy with a flag that has a marine and a human on it, and another with a flower on his belt. but they don't know that the ork head is meant to be from a specific campaign defending a planet, where the marine leading the campaign worked with guard forces to repel them and formed a close bond with the leader of the guard, and he fell in battle and was commemorated with that banner. and the flower was gifted to that marine by someone he saved, and had some process done to it to keep it from decaying.
that's all for me. and anyone who wants to ask about it.
Very interesting video and a good question: I myself am an illustrator and graphic designer who has been painting minis for about a year. As someone who follows the colours from the respective codex, I don't feel particularly artistic. However, I'm still in the beginner phase and I think if I can get the figures up to a good standard, I'll start experimenting. I think, for me personally, then I will be able to consider painting the minis as art. No matter how high quality the final product will be.
Working as 3d artist in video games myself... for me first and foremost it doesn't matter if it is art, but at the same time the definition of meaning Ian used is still very 'flimsy'. You as an illustrator know like myself how to put emphasis on something, what effects colors have, how composition affects perception - sure on our everyday minis this most likely doesn't matter, but you will find people who put the a story into their paintjob/basing - so it does give the whole thing meaning - is this enough to be regarded as art? No - because it isn't political enough or not challenging enough your mindset? In this case 99.9% of minimalists aren't art because they provoke nothing from me either (nor does Picaso by the way or most of the other famous painters).
For me the difference between the two plays Ian mentioned was actually just personal approach to them. Both convey emotions - 'valuing' the second more to 'just' entertaining people. But making people feel good has as much art involved as shocking them or having them think about something.
I think the discussion about art is to are very large degree pointless like discussing taste. Some might like something, some might not and its both ok. At the end of the day I prefer being called a craftsman and not 'artist' as it is in my job title - so I might be biased here :D
So, a GW video featuring Ernst Gombrich?
I'm sold
Art is expression through a medium. End of story. Specifically when made by a human but I think there is a wider concept to it than that.
Does a leaf not express a trees hunger and health? Does a stoat turning ermine not "tell" of the coming of winter? Graffiti doesn't make itself... Or are lichen and moss likened to vandalism upon a stone?
Somewhere a man sits proudly on the countertop he installed at a McDonalds. Somewhere someone replaced withered flowers and the colors match the room perfectly. Someone just made a perfectly symmetrical sandwich and no one will ever see the mustard smiley face again.
Last night I painted some details on a Primaris Chaplain, pinned his weapon, and also drew a picture of a mushroom girl for a commissioned piece. Which am I more proud of? The Chaplain. Which made more of an impact on the world? The mushroom girl. Doesn't mean one is more or less art than the other.
"'Renner, do you know how much work goes into a painting?'
"'I've never tried. I can guess.'
"Then can you imagine anyone going to that much work if he doesn't have something to say?'
"'How about "Mountains are pretty?" Weiss suggested."
(Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle: *The Mote In God's Eye*, c1974, 33rd Mass Market printing p.263)
I agree that "Art" is a creative endeavour that attempts to create an emotion or reflection - but I categorically reject any definition of "Art" that demands the reaction be deep or complex. The musical *is* art because it's trying to make the audience feel *happy.* Happy is a feeling. Musicals are creative. Therefore, the musical you worked on is Art.
A lot of people seem to argue that something is only Art if it is *good* art, or *complex* art, or *innovative* art. I submit that by deciding the musical isn't Art, you yourself have fallen into this trap. In my opinion, ANY creative endeavour that's intended to create ANY feeling or reflection or introspection IS ART.
To be sure, most of it BAD art or even boring art or trite art. But it's still Art. The effort doesn't even have to succeed to count as Art, because whether or not something is Art is not linked to whether or not it's any good. Putting any kind of limit on "Art" based on quality or type of reaction is gate-keeping.
Of course, by my definition most gaming minis probably aren't Art, because the intent of the creator wasn't to provoke an emotion or introspection.
Bleh, tried four times to bring this to a graceful close but it's not working so I'm just gonna peace ou--
I really love this topic, especially with regard to miniature hobbying, I was doing a seires of interviews with people in the warhammer community a couple years ago for a uni essay about the native creativity within the 40k hobby both in miniatures and in digital works (eg. game modding) and it gave me some really interesting thoughts.
I drew most of my interviewees from a particular community based around kitbashing (as it was one of the major elements in the essay) and one of the questions I included was, "do you consider kitbashing to be art?" and I'm fairly certain that every single interviewee said yes.
While everyone had their own reasons and feelings about the topic what seemed to be a common thread is that, through kitbashing, a new expression of the 40k setting and its themes can be made, be that exploring gaps in the lore to represent those tiny moments we would never otherwise see, to re-creating the themes and styles of influential 40k painters/illustrators in miniature form to deliver similar messages about the subject. One of my interviewees quite soberly said that:
“Artistically speaking, a good chunk of the hobby is largely derivative ... at the end of the day it's more of a niche form of expression, meant primarily for the same community that partakes in the hobby”.
And I think that it is incredibly true, because what we make with our miniatures is an expression, meant for us and those like us who are in the know, not for everyone, certainly not for art snobs. It is an expression not just of themes and subjects, because not everyone makes miniatures with that intent but rather, one that expresses our personal interests in the hobby, the totality of everything we make represents the personal niche of our favourite things within the hobby.
So while "art" might be too hard to define on its own I think that "self expression" is exactly what all of this miniature stuff is and isn't that what the process of making art is about?
Thanks for the little think-piece. Definitely food for thought.
Another great video. It was actually really interesting to find out a little more about you and your “real” life. Thanks for sharing that with us. 🙂
Well just wait til next week when the AMA video drops!!
I must confess, when I had art history at grammar school they wanted me to make portfollio just to get grade in whole
Khorne guys helped me a lot
This is an incredible video. I really feel Ian's perspective is something built on experience being within and surrounded by creativity.
I love the amount of intelligence and schooling you have in your videos. You deep dive into the topic in a historian style and it's really refreshing.
Videos continue to be fantastic, you are really very good at delivering your content succinctly and really quite professionally. Every time, I think … not a wasted second in there, all great!
As part of one of my (weirdly) history classes we defined that, in essence, art is something that cannot, by definition, have intrinsic, objective value.
An apple, sold at the supermarket, a wall, built by an expert mason, or, in this case, a plastic toy soldier, sold in a hobby store, is not, by that definition, art. It is a product.
The Apple logo with a capital A, the Berlin Wall, as a concept, and a Warhammer miniature, once it's been built and painted, does not, intrinsically and objectively, have a monetary value.
You can argue all you want as to how much the marketing cost, how much the building material and paints cost, how much the plastic, shipping, distributing, taxing, and all else you want, but you cannot, objectively, intrinsically, put a price on that. You can do it subjectively, of course. This sculpture is worth 10 million euros, this logo made us 30 billion dollars, of course, but that is still not, in essence, intrinsic, objective value.
When you put all of that together, when a human activity, in this case miniature painting, has as a result a unique object, with all factors taken into account (monetary, time, skill, planning and execution, and especially emotion), you still, cannot, by any reasonable factor, attribute to it an intrinsic, objective value to it, then by that definition, be it good (subjective) or bad (subjective again) art, then it is, unequivocally, art.
Thank you Ian, once again, for bringing meaningful discussion into this community
Love this thoughtful look at "wot is art", as a fellow artist-for-hire its something I've thought about a fair bit.
Gonna put this out there but you could argue that all warhammer conveys meaning because the goal of most miniature design is to communicate what a unit is both thematically and mechanically. It might not be terribly philosophical, but that is meaning being communicated.
My Degree is in art history and philosophy so being in the miniature hobby I thought a lot about this question and honestly it always comes down to the definition of art. And I think you took the exact right approach in braking the question down to the different things we understand under that term art. But since what we understand as art through history changed a lot and with the different meanings we attribute to art plus our different taste in aesthetics makes it very subjective in a lot of ways. With that said, I really enjoyed your approach to the subject and the parallels you drew with your day job, really interesting. I also loved how you broke down the difference between craft and art with that analogy. Well done, I think this is a very valid approach the question if mini painting is art and I agree with your conclusion... more or less haha I think you have to look at art as a part of culture and if you think about culture and the importance of it, critical thinking, dialogue and the ability to positively affect ones life and surrounding will play a big part in it. And in this way, culturally speaking, mini painting and the community surrounding it can in a lot of ways have a claim in calling itself art as well. I also think, with the subjectivity involved, it is our approach in looking at a specific subject, that can make it art. My reaction might see artistic value in something another person cant see it. But seeing the art in things might just be something one needs to learn... its like tasting wine in a lot of ways
Definitely appreciating the swing for the fences with this video’s concept :)
I definitely agree that the biggest complexity comes from our (English speakers) tendency to streamline over time. The loss of “artisan” from common usage dropped the highly skilled craftspeople into “artist”, for example.
We’d also benefit from adopting a more robust use of “catharsis” as a way of defining an “artistic intent” compared to a more functional intent using artistic skills.
It’s also be great to have a term for artistic expression with no intended audience, which is where everyday Warhammer might more comfortably sit. Is it art to write songs if you never play them for someone? Is it art to dance at home in a way that elicits feeling from you but has no structure to communicate to others?
That’s basically where I sit, and admittedly this is informed by my studies in Occupational Therapy. Warhammer is potentially art as expression, but not necessarily art as communication.
Agreed. I think there's a big issue of, essentially, semantics. And I think the fact that 'artist' is a term of high status is a MASSIVE problem.
I will say that I am now picturing, to great amusement, fronting up to a tournament with your “art” army and handing your opponents a little card with artist commentary to help guide their interpretation of your colours and kit bashing choices.
I wonder at what point people generally stop saying 'I make art as a hobby' and start saying 'I am an artist'? And how does that compare with other things. Loads of people who play video games describe themselves as 'gamers', without making money from it, but very few people who play football recreationally would call themselves footballers. For something like baking it could go either way.
@@ianalexander7082 For me, that would all come down to if the term infers professionalism or not. "Gamer" just means (or should) "someone who plays games". If someone does eSports, we'd call them a "Pro Gamer" or something. "Footballer" (At least how Australian culture handles AFL) is a professional or aspiring professional label, where "Footy Player" is more akin to someone in a local team. Generally, I see (both in my view and how I see others use it) "Artist" is used for people who participate in an artistic craft with an intended audience, specifying the craft, like "Painter" occupies a weird liminal space where someone might just be saying "I do some painting in my spare time and never show anyone" OR "I am a professional painter who has an established audience".
Cooking is a weird one, too, because it's presumed everyone is participating in cooking in some capacity since, y'know, we all need to eat. So people who do it as a hobby will say "I bake" or be described as "[person] bakes" more than "I am/they are a Baker" as that's a professional label. And that's not touching on adding in terms like "Amateur" or "Aspiring" to a professional label.
Tl;Dr - In my experience, those kinds of labels have a dynamic relationship to hobby vs. profession that's largely dictated by surrounding culture.
@@alastaircollins1145 yes I agree. That's all what I was getting at really. Artist, gamer, footballer and baker all refer to 'one who does x' but the context around each makes us view what level they are done at differently. Language is a funny thing and make conversations like the one in the video tricky!
Really glad f*@cking hell was mentioned. Never got to see it irl, but its one of the literal first dioramas i've seen in my entire life.
I've had the joy of seeing parts of it at my local art gallery, I believe, or at least some of the artist's other works. Truly, truly incredible work
@@KaeEbonrai Ngl, a nazi Mcdonald Murder machine feels something aptly grimdark. Something snuggly for for 40k, perhaps.
Cor blimey. This is a good video. Every school art teacher should play this video to their students. It's an excellent, succinct, relatable primer on how to understand art.
Cheers from one theatre artist/designer to another (Lighting, fight choreography, stage management). Love your videos and appreciated this peek behind the curtain (ha!)
I've always thought so. I've been painting minis since the early 80s. Painting in '3D,' so to speak, is the same as 2D canvas works.
I wouldn't say all 2D canvas work is art though. In fact, most of it probably isn't.
I think Ian's most important point in this video is that just because something isn't art doesn't make it less valuable than art somehow.
I found this so interesting! Made me think about my own projects, some have definitely just been "i want ogres painted to look scary to look cool on the tabletop" but for other projects i've tried to put meaning into each modelling and colour choice to make the models a little more than plastic and pigment !
I allways thought of art as a form of communication, majorly impacted by creativity. And by that definition, yes, every warhammer miniature is a piece of art.
This video…. is art.
Really great video. Great thought provoking points and well explained. For me this channel easily has some of the best Warhammer content on U Tube. More please! 😊
I've often considered how i approach minis as art! When I painted my Celestine I looked at religious art and thought a lot about what society like the imperium would see as a *living saint*. She'd be kinda of horrifying, if you think about it. Celestine is brave and compassionate and she ultimately serves a religion of horrific fascisitc brutality. I gave her black wings and made her golden armor grim and darker. I gave her bloody stigmata, her outstretched hand gruesome with blood... because she is a dark reflection of how we depict catholic saints. I thought a lot about trying to convey a mood with my tanks, make you "feel" the mud and misery of combat in their wear and tear. I think that's probably art. It sure meant a lot to me, as an invitation to inhabit a mood. EDIT: Also!! Thank you for the video! I had been wondering about this and it was nice to see someone else thinking about it too
I think the most important question is "did you set out to make art?"
You might fail at it, there's tons of bad art (which can also be thoroughly enjoyable in its own ways). But if you say it's art, if you want it to be art, it's art.
Also are the three punks Souxie Sioux, Polly Styrene and Brody Dalle?
Puts me in mind of the book 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance' 🤣
This is a great video Ian. Makes you think and appreciate you adding in your brand of expertise to the subject. I think you're right it is a mix of all 3 and I would love to see some GD entries really worthy of the art categorisation.
A thoroughly enjoyable video and great to see a different look at how our toy soldiers fit into the debate about art. Also great finding out about your 'day job'! As a design engineer I see your point that engineering drafting isn't 'art' but at times it can learn into 'creation'.
I've gone through this rigamarole with video games, graphic novels, fanfics/fanart on the "lowbrow" end, and even stuff like performance art on the opposite, "highbrow" end. And over time my general approach has gone from trying to defend these things as art, to instead flip the script and say "well, why WOULDN'T IT be art?".
(Although, I'm generally of the much, much more liberal approach that basically anything humans make or do that isn't purely survival or pure function is art. I'm all for diluting the term until it becomes essentially meaningless, because frankly I suspect it actually is more of a weird artifact we've grandfathered into a dead-end debate. A bit like the term "culture", which is similarly hotly debated in anthropology.)
I'm not 100% sure, but all of my artist friends seem to *think* painting my models is art.
I'm no philosopher, but in the case of a Golden Demon entry, is the painter behind the mini not trying to evoke an emotion as well? Through their craft and skill are they not trying to evoke the feelings of wonder and amazement from people? If we lean towards art being something with intention and emotions then does that not count? In a similar vein does the emotions evoked have to complex ones? Does it have to be these complex, layered emotions that can only be to art, or can simple, more universal emotions be ones too? This is another great video, that has definitely got me thinking again about the topic of art
OMG this whole topic is major flashbacks to my compulsory art classes before I could drop it for my GCSEs many many years ago, I would nye on borderline argue that Painting, layering and shading using a brush and paints on any surface and not just paper or canvas WAS art, unsurprisingly my Art Teacher thought otherwise because it "didn't fit within the National Curriculum"..... You can obviously guess my feelings on this.
I don't think smearing pigment on a canvas necessarily makes art either.
Really interesting video, made me think about what else in my life could be classified as art. A really well made spreadsheet? A thoughtful and well written get well soon card? So many options.
It's an interesting question. Reminds me of an ongoing argument we had at university; in the end we seemed to mostly settle on the idea that 'art' and 'the arts' were different for a variety of reasons.
However a few of us had got to the point where we defined art as "The use of technical skills to create something whether it is functional, elicits a thought or forces a response." (If that makes sense.)
Though saying that I often got laughed at for including engineering, design and architecture in the discussion.
Who knows, maybe it's difficult to properly define because it's none of the above and it's the process that is the art.
(Eesh that's enough of me trying to sound slightly intelligent...)
Wonderful video! Great little departure from your usual stuff. I really like this sort of "self-examination" of a small slice of the hobby we all enjoy!
11:47 XraySpecs!
For me, I think when you see custom builds or kit bashing with diffrent paint then normal that "ART".
Ian, this video was brilliant! So well researched and articulated.
Would Ian not consider the Great Clean One art? It certainly evokes an emotional response from myself and many others. Revulsion. Loathing. Regret. Not neccesarily positive, or even desired emotions, but they're there!
It is clearly art. The argument is whether it is low art or high art. They traditionally distinguish between something for entertainment or a work of conceptual genius/ genius skillfulness/ edifying cultural progression. Again low art is the obvious answer here for painting miniatures but some miniature painters achieve results that go beyond low art and are commensurate in skill with classical miniature work in quality. So…it depends on what you put into it.
Anything created by a conscious mind is art. How we value said art gives it its meaning, which is particular to each individual.
I think the best word to describe painting miniatures is "craft". It is close to art and many forms of craft can be considered art but not all crafts are art
Well, I would agree that it can be art, you can definitely make a diorama and paint it in a way to send a message and it could move somebody, inspire someone - and we would consider this to be art. Not every mini is art, not every painting is art, but they can be
I'd like to say how much I appreciate that your videos always have something to say. All youtube-niches, and Warhammer is no exception, are full of creators who do videos for the sake of it. They ramble on about one line of rumours or something for 10 minutes and in the end it feels like I wasted time watching them. This never happens with your content.
Thanks! I try!
I think my personal definition of "art" tends to combine mostly skill and meaning - with a bit of a caveat of watching a master in their field in and of itself feels like art because it feels like magic. I personally see my little toy soldiers that I've painted as "art" by my personal definition, as they're primarily painted to make me feel happy, in the painting and in the having painted them. I'm not the most skilled painter in the world, and I don't aim to be. I don't know if I'd go "high art" with meaning. But my League of Votann army is painted in trans colours with the trans flag on the cloak of the leader, and that means something to me, and makes me happy.
On another point about thinking about "art", there's a Canadian painter who paints wildlife paintings. He's usually classified under "realism" although could almost approach "hyper-realism". Robert Bateman is his name. I've seen paintings of his that look more real than a photograph, that almost feel more real than if I were seeing the scene in person. But is that art? I definitely heard the argument from some people that *because* he was so skilled at what he did, it was *no longer* art - that it was so perfectly reproduced, it could not be art. Which is interesting to hear. To me, his paintings are definitely art - very well crafted art, but still a painting made to celebrate nature and animals, and to invite the viewer to do the same, by seeing every little detail of what makes the rock, the grass, and the fur.
Which comes back to our little hobby - I would love to see, like you said, people pushing the boundary of what the world means in reflection of our world; what can we learn about ourselves from 40k, from Age of Sigmar, and from Warhammer Fantasy. All the great works of Science Fiction and Fantasy have something to say, so why can't we find that in our worlds?
And I think for me, great art is a work that allows you to experience something, that perhaps even invites you into experiencing something. But I've found that sometimes when the art says "feel this" that it can get in its own way. And I also kind of have this idea of "high art" and "just art" perhaps - where the "high art" is where the messages are, where it's done for the sake of the art more than anything else, and other creative and artistic pursuits are still *art* but perhaps don't carry the same weight of meaning. (kind of seen another way: "is code art?" is a question that periodically circulates through the Computer Science communities, for many of the same reasons - there's a lot of creative expression involved, but you're trying to achieve a goal, and there's certainly a lot of craft to the endeavour!)
Anyway. All that is a very long winded way of saying "Thanks, Ian, for the very thought-provoking episode. I really enjoyed it. I would like to see you do more videos on similar meta-questions about the hobby."
Love seeing other people in hobby also work in the theatre industry. In fact tomorrow a production of Laramie Project is opening that I worked on as the Lighting Designer. Maybe now that it’s open I’ll finally be able to paint minis again.
I guess I'd probs go for something I remember being taught in music at school, you had Classical music which was music made in a specific period and then classical music which was basically orchestral/ not Rock or Pop music.
So Art and art
100% YES.....
Ok it's been a LONG while since I played WH.. 1995-2000 saw A LOT of models get painted and take over the pool table in the garage. We hung out with a few people who inked the Vampirella comic books and that translated VERY well into the WH world.
It's 100% ART and some models sold as such. $$$$
I really appreciate your in depth dive into this topic, but the answer to me has always been trivial: Yes, it is art.
Of course, I'll openly admit I am a "purist" in regards to what is art and I hate gatekeeping. My view is any creative work that carries an aesthetic value can be classified as art. Warhammer seems to meet both of these by definition.
Without venturing on definition, I'm reminded of Jonathan Meades' comment that art differs from craft in that art achieves greatness by saying something new (ie Ian's 'art as meaning') while craft achieves greatness by creditable repetition. Thus a distinctive individual spin on a familiar idea - like the gentleman at my old club who used blue rather than green glow effects on his Necrons - would be art, but exercising the dedication and know-how to paint up 65 models to a standard sufficient to set that idea off (Ian's 'art as skill') is craft. So the two ideas are symbiotic. To paraphrase Einstein, therefore, art without craft is lame, but craft without art is blind. More to the point, those Necrons looked absolutely fantastic.
Very cool explorative monologue.
I would argue everything created is a form of art, how _good_ the art is can be debated and is ultimately subjective to the individual.
I'm a strong believer in the most inclusive, most wide-ranging definition of art. The layout of a supermarket shelf is an art, it draws the eye and guides the user's experience. The term "sandwich artist" might be pretentious but it's not wrong. Even the creation of a mortgage application form is a work of art - do it well, and it will ask pertinent questions and lead the user through intelligently, do it badly and... well, you've made a typical mortgage application form.
There's nothing about the term "art" that implies "quality". A bad sandwich will tell a story, just the same as an expertly made sandwich. Even a dirty litter tray begs questions of the observer, in the exact same way the most abstract modern art piece might. Is this an unexpected intrusion, where you're seeing something you weren't intended to see? Does this person routinely leave their cat tray dirty? Does this person actually own any cats?
love this video!
my 2 penneth worth: ...just because something is artistic, or creative, doesn't make it 'art', 'Art' requires something other than pure aesthetic. Just as Sarte said, 'colour cannot exist without form'... Art cannot exist without meaning, they're inseparable...
Simply Painting Warhammer is artistic, but not Art....but it could be in a diorama or something like that..
I know this whole argument is semantics, but I like the idea of throwing the word 'artistic' in as a separate thing to art! I'd also suggest 'artisan', which we usually use for...er...craftsmen?
@@ArbitorIan Absolutely, I think Art, artistic and artisan can all exist at once, separately, and mean slightly different things, if anything I think those differences actually help to define eachother... is it Art, or simply artistic?
edit: I was at the Saatchi Sensations exhibition in London in the 90s when I was an A level Art student and it was really the first time I realised 'Art' wasnt simply about Paintings, but making you think...like Hirsts 'the impossibility of death' and Jake and Dinos' phallic children.... it should force you to ask questions, of yourself, and of everything around you..
"There really is no such thing as Art. There are only artists" - E. H. Gombrich. I have always struggled (when I have thought about it - not THAT often!) with definitions of Art & Craft, Artisan & Artist. But I just like painting little plastic & resin figures.
I did a whole fricking module on this question at university and... Yeah. It's a whole thing.
Twelve tone has a great video dissecting what music is, if you're after more artistic philosophy
I had this conversation just the other day.
A very well-considered video, immensely thought provoking.
One thing I think that's worth pointing out is that these definitions, particularly the third one, has been used as a way to gatekeep the arts. i've always thought of it this way: if it's all art, then we can ask the more important questions. How does it make us feel? What meaning does it have? Is it any good?