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I didn't say that this will kill off tabletop wargames, but I'm thinking it may pull some players (mostly the ones not too interested in painting) away, just as Hearthstone does pull some people away (but not all) from Magic the Gathering. We shall see, I guess. Thanks for watching!
This is an interesting one, though a wargamer will always crave the physical aspects of the game IMO. The Blood bowl video game is popular, but rather than taking players from the tabletop, I think we have seen more people inspired to play on the table. Great vid fella!
The physical components can still be on the table. An AR app can just help with stats and necessary calculations, generate numbers instead of dice rolls etc - basically this boring accounting that you have to do to actually play. It would be nice to see, for example straight info that this assassination you plan with a warjack with 2 Focus against a DEF14 ARM 15 enemy warcaster has exactly 36% of success, so you don't have to count it (or rather estimate it) in your head.
I have to agree with you. The mobile games like Freeblade are really good fun, but they don't have the same appeal as "crafting" as uncle Atom put it. It could very well be a good link into the world and the lore, but the minis nowadays are just getting better and better and it will bring more people to the model building rather than people migrating away from it.
To offer a contrasting point of view here, while it might inspire a few people to actually get into real world TT wargaming, it is very likely that people will actually migrate away from it because of the points mentioned in the vid: a) the price point b) the hassle of transportation c) the time-consuming craft (still a massive hurdle towards entry) d) the action part (seeing your miniatures doing stuff) e) Getting rid of the dice rolling (again cutting down on time) f) customization E.g. once I got into 40k Tabletop I immediately stopped all my real world TT wargaming. Got an unfinished Stormraven and Deathwatch team lying around for a year now because I have so many more players to play against and have been getting more matches in the last year than in the 6 previous years because of ease of environment. The question is, will GW and co. be able to match the offers of other dedicated companies concerning AR.
I like the idea that my painted model placed upon the table could be AR-ed up to where I could SEE the dakka or melee combat between it and another unit. Then again, what is imagination for at that point? Deep thoughts!
do you remember that old game battle chess? that's exactly what Im thinking...set your model on the table then watch it come alive and destroy some other units. Oh the possibilities.....
Would be interesting if you could scan your models and then carry around your phone instead of your case. That has so much potential to be abused, but it would be interesting to be able to do either the AR thing or on tabletop
Personally I think VR will eventually become the go to place for table top gaming, imagine the arguments saved by being able to zoom down to the models perspective and check for line of sight!
Oh, Uncle Atom, you are talking about Muggle wargaming for the artistically impaired. Be careful playing these games with wookies. They tend to pull your arms out of your sockets when they lose.
I don't think the physical aspect of the hobby is going anywhere to be honest. As you mentioned, there exists Tabletop Simulator 40k (which I've played quite a bit and enjoyed), which you don't need a VR headset to play, by the way - works just fine on a regular PC screen. However while you would think that a computer-based free version of 40k would inevitably do irreparable damage to the physical game, the opposite seems to be the case. People get into the game via tabletop simulator, and then inevitably go on to start buying physical models of their own, because that's ultimately where the soul of the hobby is. What I can see happening, is AR being incorporated into the physical game, so for example you point your phone at the table, and you can see the number of wounds a model has floating above it, or have a model's stats display next to it when needed, that sort of thing. You could even have the dice-rolling process automated by the app to dramatically speed up the game. There are a lot of possibilities.
Depends on your commitment to the hobby. Me, personally, if I want to play games on my phone, I'll do it in the comfort of my home. Tabletop games is meant for hobbyists that try their best to be social :P
Virtual painting: When you're not playing the game with a friend, fire up the app and paint your army how you want using essentially a 3D paintbucket to fill in objects and areas and a brush for details/customization.
That would be pretty cool, too. You can do a lot of that to your Imperial Knight in that Freeblades game that's currently out there. Thanks for watching!
I feel like the next step from this would be just playing on a completely virtual table that looks like a real table etc... etc... But, instead... online with my friends on the other side of the country. It could still simulate a "real-ish" table. I'd probably rather do that than stand around a table playing an AR minis game.... maybe. Both would be cool. But, you're just back into video gaming then.
Ok for all of you saying AR is dumb for tabletop gaming maybe it is if u just point it at a table but imagine going into your backyard and playing with huge space marines and shit maybe not life sized but atleast much larger. Now that would be dope
I think you have a valid point. I remember watching people during the Pokémon craze walking around looking for creatures to catch. I could imagine a similar thing for WH40K, for instance playing a narrative campaign walking around town encountering xenos scum for you to defeat. Or using AR for gaming tutorials for people new to the hobby.
I'd think that could be hard to manipulate because of the angle but certainly you could go much larger than 28MM if you want more detail on your battlefield. Maybe 12" tall space marines kicking ass all over your backyard? and your playspace could be really huge, instead of having your aerospace fighters looping around a 60" table they could just make hot strikes as they pass the play area and you can pan out to see them circling back to make another run. there's a lot of potential taking things off the table.
The merger of the two is what would interest me the most. Having the physical models and figures, combined with AR to provide fog and atmosphere, stray weapons fire and sounds. With interactive options based on the AR ability to recognise the physical unit/tank/thing. You could even set up an AR camera for your tabletop board and have it display on a nearby screen or TV or Stream it online. You would have a much deeper experience.
+Keenan Bell Very true, and it'd be really cool if it was in some kind of AR glasses and was just always superimposed over your game. Thanks for watching!
As a married man with two kids, I enjoy my time when i get to sit down and paint my models. Then occasionally when the stars align me and the boys get together and setup, make war, shoot the shit and drink some wobbly pops. The tactile element is what drew me in and is what will keep me interested. If I ask my 20 something self years ago Id probably choose the AR/VR/VidGame route just cause it left me more time to do all the debauchery stuff.
There are some things that already exist, not exactly but similar. One is tabletop simulator. its a perfect example. (Okay, I just got to the part where you talk about it...) In the future, I think AR will be more relevant than VR. On the tabletop, I think it won't replace the models, objects, but enhances them. Like the app recognizes the models and adds information, move distance, shooting range, health bar etc. Also could help telling the story like a dungeon master. One other think came to my mind. Its the Mansions of madness 2nd edition, its narrative and a really good combination of boardgame, miniatures and an app. Ps. Good video as usual!
Ar could be very useful for two tabletop players with real miniatures playing each other over a virtual tabletop, when tey are separated by some distance. Would be kind of cool if the AR capabilities would pick up the models on the table and impose them over the other players tabletop... Would be an answer for a lot of the distances that oftentimes separate us.
I absolutely agree. Some of the people I could be gaming with no longer live where I do so AR-technology would definitely be a great way to allow us to bring us together.
Quite possible to do if both players use a mat with calibration dots you could send each other camera footage of their real models and AR would interpret their location and height, board wouldn't look pretty to non-augmented view though as you would essentially be playing on something akin to a spotted snooker table.
Brilliant idea. I know loads of people (myself included) who struggle to meet face-to-face for a game. I like the idea of the calibration mat. You could even have your own terrain on it, so long as it doesn't conflict (stack) with your opponent.
this is obviously something for people who don´t like the hobby aspect of the entire tabletop wargameing and usualy play with unpainted models anyways....everybody who likes painting and building and creating something awesome...where the "gaming" aspect comes secondary, will compleetly ignore this development...just like me ^^
how about people like me who like to paint a bit of everything but will likely never have a full army? I have 11 orks, 5 space marines, and a handfull group of choas cultists and marines. but I don't have the money, or time, or patience, to paint 50 ork boyz.
GirlPainting obviously you MUST be right.. And obviously you don't get people who create 3D models and who would adore the idea of modelling and using those models in AR.. Nah that doesn't happen.. So this could only appeal to people who arent in it for the hobbying aspect.. *rolls eyes*
I'm the opposite. Abandoned pen and paper gaming decades ago for digital versions that show you all the stats for all your options at a click. What used to take five hours to play through takes one. Joe can watch his baby while we we play. I still paint models and build landscapes, but I don't care to sit there for half an hour while everyone calculates all their options and takes their turn anymore.
So here is an idea. Instead of making a full A.R. game. you make an app that works in the same general way but replaces you tape measure and dice. all the stats for your army would be on the phone and would share the info with your opponent. You would still have models on the table but it would give you their movement and hit scores automatically. The hard part would be getting the software to recognize the models on the table, however im sure there are people out there who are smart enough to do it.
I would definitely like to see a game where it augments the plays and actions you make with the actual models you have. Like a system where you register your models and it knows what they do and has visuals for everything.
I think your point of setup/teardown time is spot on... I have about 3000 miniatures that I'd love to play with, but I never have the free time to get my stuff packed, brought to the store, set up, play, pack it back up and go home... 8th has sped up the game play time, but having my tablet there and playing against someone would cut the time necessary in half.
Way back, in the long long ago, circa 2007, I said that GW needs to license out an online tabletop video game platform. You would get a unique identifier code with your model(s) and would link to your account. You could then play friends or competitive but most importantly, imo, get a feel quickly on how units play and what army comps you like. In non-competition they could release 1000pt premade lists that trial players could try, which would, imo, bring MORE people into the hobby. They could generate additional income through micro transactions such as allowing people to drop a couple bucks to unlock in game only a unit or hero. This would allow both just straight video gamers and those that lean that way to spend money as well as linking the hobbyists with that side of it and securing future growth for the company. Also, another added benefit would be easy rules testing. Imagine a new edition with codices that were actually decent (says the jaded Chaos Daemons player).
I think AR is going to be an active part of tabletop wargames, as well as tabletop games, some companies are publishing games that are both physical and virtual, for things like enhancing the experience while gaming, or showing things that are not possible with tokens or miniatures. I'm also a mobile developer and I'd love to work in something that could show unit's stats or measure ranges on the table, something simple that could show the possibilities. There are a lot of devices that will change our life in a short time, and we should take advantage of that technology, both as gamers and as source of future work careers.
I agree that we should embrace the technological possibilities and use it to make the hobby better. For example using AR-technology to make gaming tutorials for people new to the hobby. I don't think that it will replace the tangible aspect of building and painting miniatures and gaming face to face in real life.
It could be a neat way to get people interested too. Offer a free "intro" version which includes preset armies (color and composition), a pay version could offer custom army colors and unit options allowing you to do both the hobby and games aspects.
I would love to play games in AR. It will have the more social component which is generally missing from video games. It will also have the visual attractiveness of a video game. I get that many people love the modelling side of wargaming (I don't :D). The great advantage is that I could have my "army" and "terrain" stored in my mobile phone and not cluttering up the garage. Also, my new "figures" will be easier to hide. :D That said, my 15 year old Nokia may need an upgrade if I am to join this side of gaming. Great video - very insightful and you explained the concept of AR and its implications for wargaming very well. Cheers.
I think there is another option to this that was hinted at in the presentation. Suppose you do lay out your figures on a table top and then use you phone to picture it. Then you say this unit is firing at that unit and the App imposes the images of weapons firing and rather than dice imposes the randomiser on how accurate the shooting was. The same for movement. In the normal movement phase it projects where your troops will be or if you cross dangerous or difficult terrain it calculates how far you move and what damage you receieved, i.e. vehicle is bogged or loses damage points. Further you could use the phone/tablet (Cause that's what I would use) to stop fudging in ranging for movement and shooting. Finally, you could start a game and determine a rest point. Then use the app to reset the game next week where you left off. I mean how many of you were dissatisfied because the game had to end prior to a clear winner being decided.
I happen to agree with Uncle Atom. I also think that this could be a really cool supplement to tabletop gaming. Especially in the 'fast game' department Atom mentioned. I could see myself buying a 40k AR game with a buddy to play if we could crank one out in 15-20 minutes. Heck, I could see it getting people intrigued in tabletop as a hobby who had never considered it before. Thanks for keeping it fresh Atom!
I play 40k and I'd like it for trying out new armies to get a feel for them before buying certain units or starting a new army but would never have the same love for them as my guys who I've personally made, converted and painted!
Also if it played like Harry Potter Chess that would be cool, but it would actually really slow down model placement with like 20 man squads if you want to daisy chain or put them in some funky tactical formation. For smaller games likie Warmachine or necromunda though would be ace.
I’ve been trying this as basics but my programming skill aren’t up to it. Some 30 years ago the club in stoke on Trent played Kevin Zucker’s 1814 board game with a map stuck on the wall and the figures bought to battle useing the map. On contact figures were deployed on the table. Boucher was almost destroyed at la Rothie’re, but he got away. Swatzenburg lost 6,000 men in a forced march and had to pull back from Napoleon because of the disorganisation of his Army. We could really have used a data base to record these things like corps,disorganisation, casualties. However I got sidetracked using a bbc micro with only 32k memory, better than my trs80 but the discs couldn’t cope. Then I was again distracted by real life and had to write some book keeeping software, then delivery software for my new business. I wold also have liked video map movement and then the map terrain to play from iPad to iPad but showing the brigades on the table as miniatures. Data input should be quick ( I’m not a typist ). I’ll. leave it at that if anyone is thinking along the same lines.
I believe this will be amazing for the gaming community. I used to make "risk" type games in middle and high school. And everytime I made a new map I always dreamed of it being in AR. Hearing all of this makes me think back to those old pencil and paper games I made with my friends and I really hope this continues
I think that one of the great things about wargames that has always interested me is the fact that these are real things which aren't limited by your monitors resolution. I love looking at painted miniatures at their head levels, seeing these physical things doing battle. And as for AR wargames, they won't take off, its essentially a video game that is harder to play.
I liked the first video more than the second the one with the titan on it etc. The second video / game may as well have been played without the table. What was the point of the table with the second game?
I am just getting into the hobby (with my main hobby being my PC and PC gaming) after building a model TIE fighter and really enjoying the building/painting process. So as someone that spends a lot of time (some would say too much time) on my PC part of the attraction for me is having the a tangible object in my hands. For others this may not matter as much and the easy and connivance of being able to have an AR game will be great for some> This is before you account for the time to build/paint the models or even the cost of the models, paint etc.
I think you have good point. On my part I'm mostly into the building and painting process (as well as the lore/fluff). I know people who I could be gaming with but are separated by geographical distances. AR-technology would allow us to interact and have fun.
I think there will be a market for AR. It will form a sub-genre of the hobby and not really detract from wargaming in general. What it may do is actually encourage a small percentage to buy kits of some of the models they "manipulate" on screen. I hope so, anyway.
+Vaughan McDonald I've talked to many traditional 40k players who started by playing Dawn of War on the PC, so it could certainly do that, it seems. Thanks for watching!
Pure gimmick for me the idea of having to play the whole thing looking through my phone seems tiresome its 40k pokemon go...I'll pass 😁 Great video thou keep them coming
Scott Guise But its more of a video game than a table top experince, would I rarther play Call Of Duty or play paint ball? Video gaming has its place and its fun but its not a replacement for the hobby thats my thoughts anyway
you could use this to do games online. you have a table. your friend in London has an identical table. you point the phone at the table and you see 3d scans of your opponents real life game pieces. you could compete in a tournament without even leaving your basement.
AzuriteT3 that's a neat idea. You'd use your real miniatures in an empty board and fight another army that isn't actually there but in screen you see it and you can talk to yiur opponent as if he was really there.
it would certainly solve the problem of "nobody plays X game around here." they could sell play mats with qr codes on them. if you and your opponent owned the same size surface then you could load into the game just like a game of CoD. the turn based nature of the game would make lag a non issue.
How about digital painting? Maybe the guy you play with doesn't have the handiwork to paint well but is more than happy to scan his models in and color and detail them digitally. Now instead of a table of bare plastic and metal you're looking at a tabletop of amazingly vibrant detailed models.
I would figure that if the game software takes care of much of the "rules" stuff, then games would run quicker, potentially even 30 minutes for smaller, 1500 point games (for example). Or, there's always power banks for marathon games. Thanks for watching!
What do you think of Hologrid, from Tippett Studios? It's a tabletop AR battle game. Back in the day, Phil Tippett animated the Dejarik game (holographic chess) in "Star Wars".
I see this as a way for people new to the hobby to get a good concept on what the game is. Kinda like the tester armies at your local game store. When I first entered the hobby, there was a Dark Angels vs Chaos Space Marines board in my local shop. The guy who was working there showed me the ropes of the game and I left with a box of Space Marines who later became Space Wolves. I feel like AR gives you that same oppurtunity but for people who are introverts or are unable to find their local game store but want to get into the hobby. Either way, community growth is good and this seems like a nice step for a lot of new people.
When I was a kid I read a novel called Titan it takes place on the moon in our system of the same name, one of the things they mentioned in the world building fluff of the book the main character was living in a men's hostel and he has a chat with one of the other residents over a tabletop rpg. How the game was presented was there was a board that you put your units on, and because the board is a holographic emitter and your units are chits that when you placed them they turned into holographic units on the board. Fast forward thirty years and we have Skylanders and Amiibos that you can drop onto a reader where ever one is available. I dunno about the amiibos but the Skylanders level up and remember their level. If this AR game can work with some kind of mat that the AR viewer can read and generate terrain based on what it reads on the grid, and then your units can be moved about the board/table/battlefield in some way that the AR viewer can interact with that would be cool. If it also happens to be mats and unit chits that you can identify visually like it has markings on the token that says it is a marine with a melta gun by using an icon so you can still play the game offline I would buy into that. Especially if the AR software had an offline mode where you could take a picture of each player's turn(or each phase of the turn) and when the game was done use those pictures to create a instant replay of the game in CGI that you can upload and share so other people can watch the battle but see Marines actually fighting Orks and not the markers on the table. Imagine being able to run a campaign where everyone uploads their battles to a site and it tracks the entire campaign with all the battles and interactive maps that change based on the areas won or lost.
Absolutely. As you pointed out - cuts down on the barriers to entry and portability. There will still be hobby/crafting opportunities through digital modeling/ painting (could be or should be, not necessarily will be). You could also enable importing of 360 images of physical models or terrain.
I’d love to see AR as a complement to physical games. Imagine playing a traditional game of 40K while wearing a Hololens, with special effects, smoke, explosions and tracers superimposed onto the physical battlefield. I’d enjoy that.
I feel like this has future potential but not with the phone. I feel like once vr moves past an enclosed headset and on to something such as a pair of glasses that augments what your looking at while being able to see normally, this will be a whole lot better. Till then I don't see it catching on.
I think there is a nice median where you have the option to use your painted models (maybe by putting a little reciever type sticker in their base) with the AR enviroment. So the terrain and everything is AR but the models are real and you move them around. Maybe you can even use small robots that attach to the base to move your models around.
Love it for keeping track of health, weapons, turn order, figures that have moved, efc. Battery life would be a big factor. Imagine a frostgrave skirmish, the camera recognizes your warband and can keep track, give you options aka tutorial help. Would be interesting to see, especially if they can integrate a voice command action.
I could see this adding on to the normal table top games where you can stick little RFID chips or put QR Codes in the base of the models and use your cell to show unit statistics or check engagement ranges and do dice rolls in what is otherwise a conventional physical game. Your phone might even track unit history based on your previous games so you can see if some unit actually has been effective or not.
They say since wizards of the coast came out with their online, magic the gathering game called arena, their sales have been up for the physical cards. So I guess this is just a wait and see type of deal. I’m curious on how it plays out for games Workshop if they invest into something for AR
Thanks for the vid! There's something similar going on for TRPGs like D&D with virtual top-down maps. There isn't as much of a cost entry barrier--we use our d4's instead of minis more often than not--but there is still the convenience factor. We use a site called Roll20 for the virtual tabletop. It's great for games over the holidays and playing with my friends who have moved, but it just isn't the same as having the battlemat there in front of me. Plus, I like minis (hence my initial interest in wargaming channels). So, I'm one of those DMs who will be sticking to traditional methods when I can.
if im going to stare at a screen to play an AR game that generates all the units and the terrain, i dont see why i dont just stay at home and play command and conquer or something. now if it is used to enhance stuff on the tabletop like add gunfire to models or explosions on the field or whatever fine it becomes slightly more useful, but at the same time that makes it a cute distraction from tabletop gaming. edit: actually AR could be very handy for tools like a digital range finder, ruler, aura of influence indicator and so on.
I think you're spot on with this. While I can't foresee myself giving up the building and painting side of wargaming, I would still play AR war & tactics games for the sheer ease and enjoyment of it. I already enjoy tabletop and video games, this is just a hybrid of the two. But you're right, from a business standpoint it only makes sense to go this route. There will be the inevitable Monopoly version of course, but for someone not interested or willing to invest the time and money in the acquisition, assembly and painting of minis being able to enjoy a tabletop war game experience it's a great option. VR may ultimately suffer the same fate as 3D television due to the goggle requirement, but nearly everyone has a phone capable of some form of AR interaction. I'm interested to see where this is all headed.
They could make it so the AR War-game has a paint shop utility. You pick your troop/mini and open it in the paint booth section of the very same app and paint the mini. There could be an option to copy paint to all mini's or copy to this mini. This way folks can still have the option to have fun painting up our mini's. Im thinking more then likely they will introduce a micro transaction to sell you skins... especially if they give you the game for free. We at Mystic-Realm love what you do! Be blessed in all you put your hand to - Frederick
I would be more inclined to do something like this if they had a AR headset like google glass. I hate having to hold up my phone constantly to see what the board would be.
I would suggest developing a holder for a cell phone or tablet that goes over the shoulders and mounts the device at an angle to display the table top to the user without blocking their view of the room. Alternatively, a holder that mounts to a corner of the table or can be moved along a track attached to the table or moved from corner to corner.
Funny thing is that I love videogames but the fact that I wanted something in my hands was what got me into the hobby. For lack of better words, I wanted something that felt real, that could stay with me "forever", something that really felt mine. Now I rarely buy games but I'm always itching for new miniatures or models, the whole hobby process, from buying, building and painting got me hooked. I rather paint or build to play videogames nowadays...Hope I made some sense :v
I think TT gaming AR is most definitely in the near future and your phone will play a role. Beyond that imagine a gaming set up that features other hardware, gloves or glasses for example. I'm looking forward to it but will always enjoy the physical painting and building aspect of the game.
I think it will have a place, kind of. I think I would like to see the AR portion replacing the dice rolls, maybe recognising the units on the table and then cinematically playing out the combat / shooting phase. I am not looking forward to people being even more distracted by their phones / tablets whilst we are meant to be playing a game, something which is more of a social interaction for me. I have a board game (x-com) which is a co-op game vs an app on my phone, really enjoyable but a pain watching your battery count down whilst playing ... I can only imagine that AR will suck the battery dry just as Pokemo Go does at the minute.
I have had 3 games of Table Top Simulator during the lockdown playing 40k, no VR just my PC. Amazing, plain and simple GW needs to look at this and after losing business for over a month I guarantee this is in talks right now. The game already exists and GW is fine to partner with companies for video games these days, and Berserk Games has at least 20 paid DLC partner games right now. I think we can expect an announcement of something like this by the end of 2021 if not sooner. Also I use Universal Battle 2 which is super simplistic and play games like Kings of War with buddies. I never considered these that important until a month ago and now I am straight up ready to buy virtual armies as long as the cost isn't too crazy
I think that AR (using a 3d-camera equipped phone, which I think will be more common very soon) will be most useful as a tool for measuring distances and overlaying stats and ranges for units. It is not too hard to create software that recognizes what model you are aiming the center of your phones camera at and measure distances with a quite good accuracy.
It's as you said a no-brainer. They started doing 3D models for model printing for some time. So they have the models. Now they could make a game for it, texture those models, sell them as virtual pieces to earn money and provide monthly "game scenarios" and maps for players to enjoy. Or maybe even have procedurally generated terrain with a couple of options etc. there are many ways to make those games fun. So far many AR games seem to make the mistake of real time, which I think would be to hectic, because of the limited view port. But playing any skirmish type of game like Necromunda, or the new Star Wars game would be great. You could look at the table through your phone and select units on the phone screen and place them, the game would simulate the rules and move everything around and you could focus on the fun of actually playing. At the same time, they could still print the models they had to create for the virtual games anyway and still make money with all other aspects of the hobby. I just hope they find a way to make both things equal to each other. The rules should not suddenly be totally different, nor should the AR version be realtime or something. I think having both "platforms" of the game on equal ground would grow the hobby as a whole. Where you could duke it out AR-style, as you said, in the short work break while eating a burrito + you'd still have all the awesome and fun hobby portions of wargaming.
I think the successful AR app for tabletop wargaming will be the app that keeps all the aspects of the hobby that we love (painting, modeling, sculpting, collecting, and getting away from back-lit screens for a change of pace) but streamlines some of the stuff that can get in the way. An app that recognized all your models and displayed their stats, measured distances, displayed line of sight, etc. That would be AR for wargaming. The full virtual table tops are just a new kind of phone based video game, and a badly implemented version at that. I think we will have great apps that make wargaming more approachable (which will bring in more people), and great phone games that simulate wargaming (which won't take anyone away and may bring new people in). In the long run I think this technology will be great for tabletop wargaming.
Great video and perfect timing as games workshop posted about it on their 40k FB page as well. My personal opinion is this won t replace miniature wargaming but hopefully becomes a gateway for new recruits that will come from the ar games to the tabletop wargames
personally, I could easily see this taking off. For those of us who want to get into the hobby but don't have the time for the crafting or the money for commissions could easily use this to get into it. I could see heavily customized units being digitally made by players. In fact, (i am a writer btw) in my book, this kind of stuff has completely taken over all board games and D&D with the tabletop being portable and the battlefield is more of a hologram than anything else. The units are virtually shown and when (what are now smartphones) are connected, personalized armies or role play characters appear for the game.
This is absolutely going to be a thing. I'm curious to see if these games will get Con tables and do tournaments, a "Machines" tourney at Adepticon for example. I was also super interested in the photogrammetry aspect of the new generations of phones, being able to make a 3D mesh out of anything just using your phone is going to be a game changer.
The hobby contains a lot of different aspects that allow you to feel you're doing different things. Building, painting, gaming and list writing/reading. I feel I'm doing 4 things so I don't get bored. If you condense the hobby into a phone app then that can take that away so I think I would always prefer the current way we do things. However - I would buy the app still and enjoy the novelty of it. The age of sigmar app is great and I love for £0.99 a month I can put all my lists on there so it saves writing them down so I read more as a result. An app like you explained is a good gateway for new gamers / people or whatever but a novelty for those who are already involved. In my experience most of the gamer types that like the craft less tend to be tournament players - the question is will it effect tournaments???
I know I am behind by a year on this particular topic. But the biggest hurdle for me to getting into this hobby, or any other hobby I would enjoy, is the fact the closest place near me that has any type of table top is about 2 and a half hours away. If somebody could develop an app where you could use something like the oculus rift or your phone, where two players could play 200 miles apart with this AR, would definitely get me into starting up an army. The way I would envision this app working is like this. Both players could get a board with sensors in it. Have your table top armies have some sort of nfc chip so the board or your phone could pick up your army and automatically calculate any vital stats. Each player would have dice that again either your phone or your board could pick up what you just rolled. This way your playing with your army and your opponent's army would be on your board virtually. The keys to this working would be that it has to be rock solid where your screens have to match. Additionally I don't know if price points would be a barrier.Pretty much until I retire and move to a place that has this available, or something like the proposed idea comes up, I wont be joining anytime soon. All I will be doing is buying models, finish painting them, then they will either sit on display for a little while then go into a box never to be seen until I decide to get rid of them.
These kinds of things would be cool and could also be very useful in combination with regular tabletop games (seeing which blood bowl players has which skills for instance) but I dont think it'll ever catch on until you can do it without your phone. First of all a full game will probably drain most of your phones' battery and secondly it'll be a hassle to keep the phone in front of your face for possibly hours at a time. When products like the google glass really hits the market though, I think these kinds of games and "game assistant"-apps really will become huge. Great vid! :)
As someone who seriously enjoys both aspects of 40k: The miniatures and the game itself, I feel that AR could be used to great effect to add to the game. Things like measuring distances, dice rolls, cool animations could be done with the game and would only add to the game itself. But due to people enjoying the hobby aspect I don't think it will ever truly replace that.
That looks kewl. I had a concept similar to that except you would use your miniature, structures, etc... but as you moved your character on your screen (laptop?) there would be circles and ovals showing walking, running, and firing ranges that get smaller as fatigue sets in. A 1980s(?) concept, where servers and bartenders (real) would have a device they would look through (AR) and see 3D images of what the patron (face recognition) had ate and drank (pints, shots, etc...) stacked in front of them with a running total above them.
Just so you know, virtual tabletop simulator doesnt require the headset, at least not when I used it. I think that we will see AR augmenting the actual table top version. I can picture you recording your game, then running it through a program and having the battle play out live and being able to walk around the table etc. I dont really see full AR taking over. Just seems cheesy to me. Maybe we will see AR terrain, because terrain is much more difficult to transport and AR terrain could be more interactive. Just plop a couple AR tokens in your case and you can set up AR terrain on any table. Also AR seems like it would have a lot less hold on players. Basically its so easy to pick up that its just as easy to drop. People spend like $400 on models and then arent having fun will often push through and figure out whats wrong. Someone who spent $0.99 on an app will just drop it.
A few years later, and I think the community is what will keep the painting and the terrains etc alive. I think the AR stuff will get people who didn't know they liked it, into the hobby. Like I can see kids at school playing these games, but as soon as they grow up, I think they're gonna get into it for real. I grew up with a lot of video games as a kid, and I still prefer the board and the forever setup to logging onto table top simulator (which by the way you dont need a headset for, and its super popular these days)
It’d be cool if the AR would allow you to record short clips of superimposed explosions, guns firing, Hive Tyrants or Daemons screaming, a teleporting graphic, a drop pod landing thud and dust cloud etc. Would make some epic clips to put in video battle reports!
Wow. This is wild. I can see it to play with friends around the world. But I would miss the social aspect. Some of my fondest memories is gaming in the 80s with friends. Great insight as always.
I would love to see an A.R. app that takes pictures of your miniatures on tabletop and puts them in a combat environment or something like that. So for example instead of just seeing a squad of Space Marines on the table you can see like muzzle flashes from their bolters and debris flying around as well as more troops and explosions going off in the background.
I think that you could fit both into your hobby life. It's cool looking and more realistic, but there also something special about the tangible feel and look of a miniature model. Game companies could also market upgrades for your armies to keep revenue pouring in.
Tabletop Simulator works on laptop too, play through steam. Little more then a phone but still alot less then normally. My current Pathfinder campaign is all online, on TTS. Well I decided to print out maps and stuff but that wasn't needed to actually play. It's weird but I like that I can play with people when it's harder to meet up in person.
I could see both sides setting up a physical Terrain one at a time on the board and it replicating it using AR to each side. And A couple cameras posted up on each side or the four corners of the table could help to capture a real time of the game. Then you could display it on your TV...then use your phone to see at game top level. The cameras could then capture the game all the way through and in the end it does a rendering of the entire game of what it would have looked like in real time. It would be AWESOME! AR will be more then just whats on your phone. And what can be done is more then just bunny and dog ears on your head. The gaming community may use it but I think it will be a while before people spend 2-3 hours holding a cell phone up at eye level. I think maybe augmenting so you can see range and stats of what your thinking of aiming at would even more simplify the game to the point where the augmented portion would teach you the game as you go. And it eliminates the cheaters saying something has a little more toughness then it really does...hell you could even throw virtual Dice with it...no more weighted dice. All game changes could be loaded live in real time so you always playing the latest rules.
Manual manipulation in both board wargaming and miniature wargame is the driving force. That is the key subject in my view. Perhaps some people will be interested in this gimmick, but it is not appealing to WHY we have this hobby.
Weta Workshop recently released the awesome GKR Heavy Hitters board game and also, almost immediately, partnered with an AR company for an unannounced project. I am thinking the two are related, and am super excited for more info.
I could imagine augmented support for tabletop wargames might be a nice thing. Something like augmented bookkeeping or being able to see unit stats, arcs of fire or rules on screen.
I have been a lifelong video gamer. Some of the earliest memories i have are of launching Doom in DOS and using the IDDQD code. Been in love with video games my whole life, spent countless thousands of dollars on gaming pc's, consoles, peripherals, and games over the years. That being said, I love miniature war-gaming (specifically W40K) for completely different reasons. As much socialization is possible through video games voice chat, it doesn't compare with standing across the table from someone in a games store. I play W40K to get out of the house, to STOP staring at a screen, to flex my crafting and creative skills, to play with something REAL that is MINE. (If i don't like how my models/army looks, i can repaint them. If I don't like the scenery, I can change it. If the person I'm playing with and myself don't like a particular rule, we can ignore it for fun's sake. You can't do this in most video games without extensive modding, and that's IF the game allows modding.) The video game market is currently facing the same troubles it did in the late 80's, publishers and developers are flooding the market with sub-par games in an attempt to cash out. And the gaming community is getting sick of it. Hence all the hubub with the Battlefront 2 microtransactions. If anything AR wargaming is going to bring more people into tabletop gaming. It will show them that there are other ways to game that don't involve controllers or mouse and keyboard. Then when they get exposed to all the fancy painted plastic, the will get hooked like the rest of us. Mainly because having a physical model that is painstakingly detailed and unique will always be more prestigious and rare than just paying for DLC. Tabletop war-gaming has been around for over a century and is still here, and arguably is still growing. Video games have only been around for what? We'll say 40 years? And has already fallen on its face once. TLDR I think AR war gaming will bring a lot of people into table top gaming by exposing them to the concept. As will the constant decrease in quality coming from the video game market.
a few years late to this party.. however i feel like yes it will happen in the near future, however i think that, akin to digital and audio books, there will always be those who enjoy the physical movement and feel of the pieces, like the pages of a book. i dont know about anyone else, but even the smells of the paint, and the sting of the glue is enough to keep me in the physical world and not the augmented reality.
Could always mix it up with having markers on the table that represent units, which the AR puts on top of as actual 3D models, automates dice-rolls, etc.
I doubt many will move from tabletop gaming because of this, but I can see this being a gateway into the physical gaming world for those who are particularly taken with the gameplay and mechanics.
There is so much potential in this. Financially and in terms of creativity. Everything you´re getting right now as physical bits to upgrade your army could get purchased digitally then. I could imagine myself "painting" and customizing my guys in a virtual army painter for hours. Most of all: The possibility to play against others worldwide with this visually appealing AR technology seems far more attractive to me, than the Tabletop Simulator stuff that a lot of people are using, or the older "Vessel" app (not sure if there is even a community anymore). Additional note: A 40k themed AR game like Xcom would be the bomb, if done properly by people that invest some love and knowledge into it, instead of listening to marketing "experts" like the creators of DoW3. I have spoken.
Those are still just a virtual games. I think that wargameing survived for so long because ... you know ... we love to touch stuff. In virtual game, you can't cheat with "extra" 0.5 inch during charge, you can use master Yoda dice rolling techniques and a lot more. That's interesting, but still - Wargameing is alive because... it's not virtual. Anyway - good upload, as always. Regards.
AR, if only used like in the demo, is basically motion gaming: clunky controls. You have to use more physical properties of the world to provide an interesting experience over video games. But if used with physical components, to cut down the setup time, to save the state of a game etc, it can be interesting.
What I would quite like to see, is ar "special effects" so you point the camera at a miniature and it moves, you roll a die and if it gets the required number you get a hit animation. like a digital puppet style thing.
I'd be really interested in an AR app that is used in addition to miniatures. Something where, if you look at the tabletop through the screen, it dynamically shows lines of fire, auras, ranges etc. Lots of characters have 6" auras, it'd be great to be able to look through a screen and see that bubble without having to keep measuring. More down the road it'd be cool to see the app working in other ways with mini's. I shoot with my Dreadnought, the app takes my mini and overlays a little animation of it firing, bullets ricocheting off my homemade terrain. For me, the application of AR in addition to models, rather than instead of, is the most exciting.
I think it will be a thing perhaps a route into the pure tabletop hobby for some and a route out for some. Certainly something that will exist in parallel to the old table top hobby since it has one of its great virtues - the ability to socialize face to face as you game.
I believe that some form of HUD type AR glasses will be needed for this to take off, as very few people will be willing to keep their phone in front of them for 2 hours. As for the hobby side, it will manifest itself as VR painting of your AR kits. You will build, paint and enhance your units using VR or on a computer before presenting them for the match. It will allow even more unique styles to show off your team. More interesting and unique Terrains and it will open up a whole new arena for people who want to play but have no space to do so. It will be another 3-5 years before we see any viable commercial solutions, but they will come.
As an avenue for better Table Management, AR is a good direction to go. If they can tighten the accuracy of edge detection software, they can greatly reduce the workload for players as far as keeping track of things like Terrain effects, movement ranges, wargear and special rule ranges, unit coherency/proximity. Depending on how much a company might want to invest in UI, you might even get some unit wargear management, or even virtual dice. I've always said that AR could best be utilized as an object analysis tool, giving the user a way to catalog items as they're encountered, and a table-top wargame is a good demonstration of that power, in that there are logical constraints on the kind of info that can be obtained in the context of the game, and models are generally of uniform scale and proportion, so identification in real time is less of a tax on the system. Only real problems are figuring out how to deal with 3rd-party/converted models from a model-recognition standpoint, and accounting for un-based models, both of which can be handled by way of a discovery process rather than by frontloading a library of model schematics.
Nobody:
Mobile apps: Lucky deal! your dice will have higher chance of rolling 6s for next 2h. Was $100, now only $10! Limited offer.
Would you like to “try” for volcano cannon? Buy 12 boxes for $79.99 or one box for $14.99 for you’re chance at getting volcano cannon! *note volcano cannon has a 2% drop rate
There is definitely room for both. Games like Hearthstone haven't really killed off the physical card games.
I didn't say that this will kill off tabletop wargames, but I'm thinking it may pull some players (mostly the ones not too interested in painting) away, just as Hearthstone does pull some people away (but not all) from Magic the Gathering. We shall see, I guess. Thanks for watching!
It would divide the market, but it would also widen the market.
not yet
And while you're waiting for the Ork player to deploy his army, your battery runs out :-P
Yooz git! Iz don't tayk dat long!
This is an interesting one, though a wargamer will always crave the physical aspects of the game IMO. The Blood bowl video game is popular, but rather than taking players from the tabletop, I think we have seen more people inspired to play on the table. Great vid fella!
The physical components can still be on the table. An AR app can just help with stats and necessary calculations, generate numbers instead of dice rolls etc - basically this boring accounting that you have to do to actually play. It would be nice to see, for example straight info that this assassination you plan with a warjack with 2 Focus against a DEF14 ARM 15 enemy warcaster has exactly 36% of success, so you don't have to count it (or rather estimate it) in your head.
I have to agree with you. The mobile games like Freeblade are really good fun, but they don't have the same appeal as "crafting" as uncle Atom put it. It could very well be a good link into the world and the lore, but the minis nowadays are just getting better and better and it will bring more people to the model building rather than people migrating away from it.
kiblams Absolutely, I started with BB2, been loving it, and are heavily considering building a team for TT
To offer a contrasting point of view here, while it might inspire a few people to actually get into real world TT wargaming, it is very likely that people will actually migrate away from it because of the points mentioned in the vid:
a) the price point
b) the hassle of transportation
c) the time-consuming craft (still a massive hurdle towards entry)
d) the action part (seeing your miniatures doing stuff)
e) Getting rid of the dice rolling (again cutting down on time)
f) customization
E.g. once I got into 40k Tabletop I immediately stopped all my real world TT wargaming. Got an unfinished Stormraven and Deathwatch team lying around for a year now because I have so many more players to play against and have been getting more matches in the last year than in the 6 previous years because of ease of environment.
The question is, will GW and co. be able to match the offers of other dedicated companies concerning AR.
theyd probably just shut them down unless they give them a liscence for it in which case expect dlc
I like the idea that my painted model placed upon the table could be AR-ed up to where I could SEE the dakka or melee combat between it and another unit. Then again, what is imagination for at that point? Deep thoughts!
do you remember that old game battle chess? that's exactly what Im thinking...set your model on the table then watch it come alive and destroy some other units. Oh the possibilities.....
BINGO! Yeah, its a good day to be a geek.
Would be interesting if you could scan your models and then carry around your phone instead of your case. That has so much potential to be abused, but it would be interesting to be able to do either the AR thing or on tabletop
Personally I think VR will eventually become the go to place for table top gaming, imagine the arguments saved by being able to zoom down to the models perspective and check for line of sight!
+TheRandomHero1988 That was a great feature of Golem Arcana: no more discussions on cover or range or whatever. Thanks for watching!
Two years later and, unsurprisingly, no one wants to spend their time with friends staring at a mobile phone. Surprise, surprise!
i always thought of this as.... STILL buy your models, receive a data card with them
then youre able to use them on your VR/AR things
Oh, Uncle Atom, you are talking about Muggle wargaming for the artistically impaired.
Be careful playing these games with wookies. They tend to pull your arms out of your sockets when they lose.
I don't think the physical aspect of the hobby is going anywhere to be honest. As you mentioned, there exists Tabletop Simulator 40k (which I've played quite a bit and enjoyed), which you don't need a VR headset to play, by the way - works just fine on a regular PC screen. However while you would think that a computer-based free version of 40k would inevitably do irreparable damage to the physical game, the opposite seems to be the case. People get into the game via tabletop simulator, and then inevitably go on to start buying physical models of their own, because that's ultimately where the soul of the hobby is.
What I can see happening, is AR being incorporated into the physical game, so for example you point your phone at the table, and you can see the number of wounds a model has floating above it, or have a model's stats display next to it when needed, that sort of thing. You could even have the dice-rolling process automated by the app to dramatically speed up the game. There are a lot of possibilities.
Depends on your commitment to the hobby. Me, personally, if I want to play games on my phone, I'll do it in the comfort of my home. Tabletop games is meant for hobbyists that try their best to be social :P
Virtual painting: When you're not playing the game with a friend, fire up the app and paint your army how you want using essentially a 3D paintbucket to fill in objects and areas and a brush for details/customization.
That would be pretty cool, too. You can do a lot of that to your Imperial Knight in that Freeblades game that's currently out there. Thanks for watching!
I feel like the next step from this would be just playing on a completely virtual table that looks like a real table etc... etc... But, instead... online with my friends on the other side of the country. It could still simulate a "real-ish" table. I'd probably rather do that than stand around a table playing an AR minis game.... maybe. Both would be cool. But, you're just back into video gaming then.
Just leaving this here (Tabletop Vr) :ua-cam.com/video/KuUhWPUDpGo/v-deo.html
So playing an RTS game on a computer then.
More like TBS.
Pretty nice. I'd rather do it with a phone I held away from my face.... like a window into the substrate than wear a mask.
I would rather play a turn based clone of AoS or 40k or whatever than a real time game. But basically yes.
Ok for all of you saying AR is dumb for tabletop gaming maybe it is if u just point it at a table but imagine going into your backyard and playing with huge space marines and shit maybe not life sized but atleast much larger. Now that would be dope
I think you have a valid point. I remember watching people during the Pokémon craze walking around looking for creatures to catch. I could imagine a similar thing for WH40K, for instance playing a narrative campaign walking around town encountering xenos scum for you to defeat. Or using AR for gaming tutorials for people new to the hobby.
I'd think that could be hard to manipulate because of the angle but certainly you could go much larger than 28MM if you want more detail on your battlefield. Maybe 12" tall space marines kicking ass all over your backyard? and your playspace could be really huge, instead of having your aerospace fighters looping around a 60" table they could just make hot strikes as they pass the play area and you can pan out to see them circling back to make another run. there's a lot of potential taking things off the table.
Or, for once processing power increases, just have more massive battles, that would simply be financially infeasible to make in real life.
The merger of the two is what would interest me the most.
Having the physical models and figures, combined with AR to provide fog and atmosphere, stray weapons fire and sounds. With interactive options based on the AR ability to recognise the physical unit/tank/thing. You could even set up an AR camera for your tabletop board and have it display on a nearby screen or TV or Stream it online. You would have a much deeper experience.
+Keenan Bell Very true, and it'd be really cool if it was in some kind of AR glasses and was just always superimposed over your game. Thanks for watching!
As a married man with two kids, I enjoy my time when i get to sit down and paint my models. Then occasionally when the stars align me and the boys get together and setup, make war, shoot the shit and drink some wobbly pops.
The tactile element is what drew me in and is what will keep me interested.
If I ask my 20 something self years ago Id probably choose the AR/VR/VidGame route just cause it left me more time to do all the debauchery stuff.
There are some things that already exist, not exactly but similar. One is tabletop simulator. its a perfect example. (Okay, I just got to the part where you talk about it...) In the future, I think AR will be more relevant than VR. On the tabletop, I think it won't replace the models, objects, but enhances them. Like the app recognizes the models and adds information, move distance, shooting range, health bar etc. Also could help telling the story like a dungeon master. One other think came to my mind. Its the Mansions of madness 2nd edition, its narrative and a really good combination of boardgame, miniatures and an app.
Ps. Good video as usual!
Ar could be very useful for two tabletop players with real miniatures playing each other over a virtual tabletop, when tey are separated by some distance. Would be kind of cool if the AR capabilities would pick up the models on the table and impose them over the other players tabletop... Would be an answer for a lot of the distances that oftentimes separate us.
I absolutely agree. Some of the people I could be gaming with no longer live where I do so AR-technology would definitely be a great way to allow us to bring us together.
Quite possible to do if both players use a mat with calibration dots you could send each other camera footage of their real models and AR would interpret their location and height, board wouldn't look pretty to non-augmented view though as you would essentially be playing on something akin to a spotted snooker table.
I'm thinking something even better: Fog of War integrated with AR.
I can totally see Starcraft AR with fog of war.
Brilliant idea. I know loads of people (myself included) who struggle to meet face-to-face for a game. I like the idea of the calibration mat. You could even have your own terrain on it, so long as it doesn't conflict (stack) with your opponent.
this is obviously something for people who don´t like the hobby aspect of the entire tabletop wargameing and usualy play with unpainted models anyways....everybody who likes painting and building and creating something awesome...where the "gaming" aspect comes secondary, will compleetly ignore this development...just like me ^^
I mean they could make it so you can scan your guys and put them in it
how about people like me who like to paint a bit of everything but will likely never have a full army? I have 11 orks, 5 space marines, and a handfull group of choas cultists and marines. but I don't have the money, or time, or patience, to paint 50 ork boyz.
GirlPainting obviously you MUST be right.. And obviously you don't get people who create 3D models and who would adore the idea of modelling and using those models in AR.. Nah that doesn't happen.. So this could only appeal to people who arent in it for the hobbying aspect.. *rolls eyes*
well, if 3d modeling is your hobby, your covered. but i was talking about miniatures modeling and painting :-P *rolls eyes backwards*
I'm the opposite. Abandoned pen and paper gaming decades ago for digital versions that show you all the stats for all your options at a click. What used to take five hours to play through takes one. Joe can watch his baby while we we play. I still paint models and build landscapes, but I don't care to sit there for half an hour while everyone calculates all their options and takes their turn anymore.
So here is an idea.
Instead of making a full A.R. game. you make an app that works in the same general way but replaces you tape measure and dice. all the stats for your army would be on the phone and would share the info with your opponent. You would still have models on the table but it would give you their movement and hit scores automatically. The hard part would be getting the software to recognize the models on the table, however im sure there are people out there who are smart enough to do it.
Could be a way to get people into the game if they don't have the cash for physical minis
I would definitely like to see a game where it augments the plays and actions you make with the actual models you have. Like a system where you register your models and it knows what they do and has visuals for everything.
I think your point of setup/teardown time is spot on... I have about 3000 miniatures that I'd love to play with, but I never have the free time to get my stuff packed, brought to the store, set up, play, pack it back up and go home... 8th has sped up the game play time, but having my tablet there and playing against someone would cut the time necessary in half.
Way back, in the long long ago, circa 2007, I said that GW needs to license out an online tabletop video game platform. You would get a unique identifier code with your model(s) and would link to your account. You could then play friends or competitive but most importantly, imo, get a feel quickly on how units play and what army comps you like. In non-competition they could release 1000pt premade lists that trial players could try, which would, imo, bring MORE people into the hobby. They could generate additional income through micro transactions such as allowing people to drop a couple bucks to unlock in game only a unit or hero. This would allow both just straight video gamers and those that lean that way to spend money as well as linking the hobbyists with that side of it and securing future growth for the company. Also, another added benefit would be easy rules testing. Imagine a new edition with codices that were actually decent (says the jaded Chaos Daemons player).
I think AR is going to be an active part of tabletop wargames, as well as tabletop games, some companies are publishing games that are both physical and virtual, for things like enhancing the experience while gaming, or showing things that are not possible with tokens or miniatures. I'm also a mobile developer and I'd love to work in something that could show unit's stats or measure ranges on the table, something simple that could show the possibilities. There are a lot of devices that will change our life in a short time, and we should take advantage of that technology, both as gamers and as source of future work careers.
I agree that we should embrace the technological possibilities and use it to make the hobby better. For example using AR-technology to make gaming tutorials for people new to the hobby. I don't think that it will replace the tangible aspect of building and painting miniatures and gaming face to face in real life.
It could be a neat way to get people interested too. Offer a free "intro" version which includes preset armies (color and composition), a pay version could offer custom army colors and unit options allowing you to do both the hobby and games aspects.
+gareth smith Very probably the way it'll work, if other mobile games are any indication. Thanks for watching!
I would love to play games in AR. It will have the more social component which is generally missing from video games. It will also have the visual attractiveness of a video game. I get that many people love the modelling side of wargaming (I don't :D). The great advantage is that I could have my "army" and "terrain" stored in my mobile phone and not cluttering up the garage. Also, my new "figures" will be easier to hide. :D That said, my 15 year old Nokia may need an upgrade if I am to join this side of gaming.
Great video - very insightful and you explained the concept of AR and its implications for wargaming very well. Cheers.
I think there is another option to this that was hinted at in the presentation. Suppose you do lay out your figures on a table top and then use you phone to picture it. Then you say this unit is firing at that unit and the App imposes the images of weapons firing and rather than dice imposes the randomiser on how accurate the shooting was. The same for movement. In the normal movement phase it projects where your troops will be or if you cross dangerous or difficult terrain it calculates how far you move and what damage you receieved, i.e. vehicle is bogged or loses damage points. Further you could use the phone/tablet (Cause that's what I would use) to stop fudging in ranging for movement and shooting. Finally, you could start a game and determine a rest point. Then use the app to reset the game next week where you left off. I mean how many of you were dissatisfied because the game had to end prior to a clear winner being decided.
What I am looking forward to is an app that you look at a unit through the phone and it gives you the stats and rules for that unit.
Yeah, I agree. That could certainly be super useful, too. Thanks for watching!
I happen to agree with Uncle Atom. I also think that this could be a really cool supplement to tabletop gaming. Especially in the 'fast game' department Atom mentioned. I could see myself buying a 40k AR game with a buddy to play if we could crank one out in 15-20 minutes. Heck, I could see it getting people intrigued in tabletop as a hobby who had never considered it before.
Thanks for keeping it fresh Atom!
+Keith Miller I think we're on the same page. Thanks for watching!
I play 40k and I'd like it for trying out new armies to get a feel for them before buying certain units or starting a new army but would never have the same love for them as my guys who I've personally made, converted and painted!
Also if it played like Harry Potter Chess that would be cool, but it would actually really slow down model placement with like 20 man squads if you want to daisy chain or put them in some funky tactical formation. For smaller games likie Warmachine or necromunda though would be ace.
I’ve been trying this as basics but my programming skill aren’t up to it.
Some 30 years ago the club in stoke on Trent played Kevin Zucker’s 1814 board game with a map stuck on the wall and the figures bought to battle useing the map. On contact figures were deployed on the table. Boucher was almost destroyed at la Rothie’re, but he got away.
Swatzenburg lost 6,000 men in a forced march and had to pull back from Napoleon because of the disorganisation of his Army.
We could really have used a data base to record these things like corps,disorganisation, casualties. However I got sidetracked using a bbc micro with only 32k memory, better than my trs80 but the discs couldn’t cope.
Then I was again distracted by real life and had to write some book keeeping software, then delivery software for my new business.
I wold also have liked video map movement and then the map terrain to play from iPad to iPad but showing the brigades on the table as miniatures.
Data input should be quick ( I’m not a typist ).
I’ll. leave it at that if anyone is thinking along the same lines.
Tabletop Simulator does have non-VR fuctionality, and allows play with a traditional KeyBoard+Mouse+Monitor setup.
The crafting is the best part, showing off your work and getting compliments, sharing tips is the best.
I believe this will be amazing for the gaming community. I used to make "risk" type games in middle and high school. And everytime I made a new map I always dreamed of it being in AR. Hearing all of this makes me think back to those old pencil and paper games I made with my friends and I really hope this continues
I think that one of the great things about wargames that has always interested me is the fact that these are real things which aren't limited by your monitors resolution. I love looking at painted miniatures at their head levels, seeing these physical things doing battle. And as for AR wargames, they won't take off, its essentially a video game that is harder to play.
I liked the first video more than the second the one with the titan on it etc. The second video / game may as well have been played without the table. What was the point of the table with the second game?
I am just getting into the hobby (with my main hobby being my PC and PC gaming) after building a model TIE fighter and really enjoying the building/painting process. So as someone that spends a lot of time (some would say too much time) on my PC part of the attraction for me is having the a tangible object in my hands. For others this may not matter as much and the easy and connivance of being able to have an AR game will be great for some> This is before you account for the time to build/paint the models or even the cost of the models, paint etc.
I think you have good point. On my part I'm mostly into the building and painting process (as well as the lore/fluff). I know people who I could be gaming with but are separated by geographical distances. AR-technology would allow us to interact and have fun.
I think there will be a market for AR. It will form a sub-genre of the hobby and not really detract from wargaming in general. What it may do is actually encourage a small percentage to buy kits of some of the models they "manipulate" on screen. I hope so, anyway.
+Vaughan McDonald I've talked to many traditional 40k players who started by playing Dawn of War on the PC, so it could certainly do that, it seems. Thanks for watching!
Pure gimmick for me the idea of having to play the whole thing looking through my phone seems tiresome its 40k pokemon go...I'll pass 😁 Great video thou keep them coming
Scott Guise But its more of a video game than a table top experince, would I rarther play Call Of Duty or play paint ball? Video gaming has its place and its fun but its not a replacement for the hobby thats my thoughts anyway
Scott Guise WH40k is like any other Gw work... full of macrotransitions.... don't call them mini.... macro is the right word
you could use this to do games online. you have a table. your friend in London has an identical table. you point the phone at the table and you see 3d scans of your opponents real life game pieces. you could compete in a tournament without even leaving your basement.
AzuriteT3 that's a neat idea. You'd use your real miniatures in an empty board and fight another army that isn't actually there but in screen you see it and you can talk to yiur opponent as if he was really there.
it would certainly solve the problem of "nobody plays X game around here." they could sell play mats with qr codes on them. if you and your opponent owned the same size surface then you could load into the game just like a game of CoD. the turn based nature of the game would make lag a non issue.
How about digital painting? Maybe the guy you play with doesn't have the handiwork to paint well but is more than happy to scan his models in and color and detail them digitally. Now instead of a table of bare plastic and metal you're looking at a tabletop of amazingly vibrant detailed models.
if it takes, say an hour to play a game. How long do you think a battery is going to last with the camera on, rendering 3d constantly ?
I would figure that if the game software takes care of much of the "rules" stuff, then games would run quicker, potentially even 30 minutes for smaller, 1500 point games (for example). Or, there's always power banks for marathon games. Thanks for watching!
What do you think of Hologrid, from Tippett Studios? It's a tabletop AR battle game.
Back in the day, Phil Tippett animated the Dejarik game (holographic chess) in "Star Wars".
I'm curious to see how this plays out in the future, should be fun.
I see this as a way for people new to the hobby to get a good concept on what the game is. Kinda like the tester armies at your local game store. When I first entered the hobby, there was a Dark Angels vs Chaos Space Marines board in my local shop. The guy who was working there showed me the ropes of the game and I left with a box of Space Marines who later became Space Wolves. I feel like AR gives you that same oppurtunity but for people who are introverts or are unable to find their local game store but want to get into the hobby. Either way, community growth is good and this seems like a nice step for a lot of new people.
When I was a kid I read a novel called Titan it takes place on the moon in our system of the same name, one of the things they mentioned in the world building fluff of the book the main character was living in a men's hostel and he has a chat with one of the other residents over a tabletop rpg.
How the game was presented was there was a board that you put your units on, and because the board is a holographic emitter and your units are chits that when you placed them they turned into holographic units on the board.
Fast forward thirty years and we have Skylanders and Amiibos that you can drop onto a reader where ever one is available. I dunno about the amiibos but the Skylanders level up and remember their level.
If this AR game can work with some kind of mat that the AR viewer can read and generate terrain based on what it reads on the grid, and then your units can be moved about the board/table/battlefield in some way that the AR viewer can interact with that would be cool. If it also happens to be mats and unit chits that you can identify visually like it has markings on the token that says it is a marine with a melta gun by using an icon so you can still play the game offline I would buy into that.
Especially if the AR software had an offline mode where you could take a picture of each player's turn(or each phase of the turn) and when the game was done use those pictures to create a instant replay of the game in CGI that you can upload and share so other people can watch the battle but see Marines actually fighting Orks and not the markers on the table.
Imagine being able to run a campaign where everyone uploads their battles to a site and it tracks the entire campaign with all the battles and interactive maps that change based on the areas won or lost.
Absolutely. As you pointed out - cuts down on the barriers to entry and portability. There will still be hobby/crafting opportunities through digital modeling/ painting (could be or should be, not necessarily will be). You could also enable importing of 360 images of physical models or terrain.
I’d love to see AR as a complement to physical games. Imagine playing a traditional game of 40K while wearing a Hololens, with special effects, smoke, explosions and tracers superimposed onto the physical battlefield. I’d enjoy that.
I feel like this has future potential but not with the phone. I feel like once vr moves past an enclosed headset and on to something such as a pair of glasses that augments what your looking at while being able to see normally, this will be a whole lot better. Till then I don't see it catching on.
I think there is a nice median where you have the option to use your painted models (maybe by putting a little reciever type sticker in their base) with the AR enviroment. So the terrain and everything is AR but the models are real and you move them around. Maybe you can even use small robots that attach to the base to move your models around.
Love it for keeping track of health, weapons, turn order, figures that have moved, efc. Battery life would be a big factor. Imagine a frostgrave skirmish, the camera recognizes your warband and can keep track, give you options aka tutorial help. Would be interesting to see, especially if they can integrate a voice command action.
I could see this adding on to the normal table top games where you can stick little RFID chips or put QR Codes in the base of the models and use your cell to show unit statistics or check engagement ranges and do dice rolls in what is otherwise a conventional physical game. Your phone might even track unit history based on your previous games so you can see if some unit actually has been effective or not.
They say since wizards of the coast came out with their online, magic the gathering game called arena, their sales have been up for the physical cards. So I guess this is just a wait and see type of deal. I’m curious on how it plays out for games Workshop if they invest into something for AR
Thanks for the vid! There's something similar going on for TRPGs like D&D with virtual top-down maps. There isn't as much of a cost entry barrier--we use our d4's instead of minis more often than not--but there is still the convenience factor.
We use a site called Roll20 for the virtual tabletop. It's great for games over the holidays and playing with my friends who have moved, but it just isn't the same as having the battlemat there in front of me. Plus, I like minis (hence my initial interest in wargaming channels). So, I'm one of those DMs who will be sticking to traditional methods when I can.
if im going to stare at a screen to play an AR game that generates all the units and the terrain, i dont see why i dont just stay at home and play command and conquer or something. now if it is used to enhance stuff on the tabletop like add gunfire to models or explosions on the field or whatever fine it becomes slightly more useful, but at the same time that makes it a cute distraction from tabletop gaming.
edit: actually AR could be very handy for tools like a digital range finder, ruler, aura of influence indicator and so on.
So for two or more people to play a game would you have to sync phones so you have the same data..ect?
I think you're spot on with this. While I can't foresee myself giving up the building and painting side of wargaming, I would still play AR war & tactics games for the sheer ease and enjoyment of it. I already enjoy tabletop and video games, this is just a hybrid of the two. But you're right, from a business standpoint it only makes sense to go this route. There will be the inevitable Monopoly version of course, but for someone not interested or willing to invest the time and money in the acquisition, assembly and painting of minis being able to enjoy a tabletop war game experience it's a great option. VR may ultimately suffer the same fate as 3D television due to the goggle requirement, but nearly everyone has a phone capable of some form of AR interaction. I'm interested to see where this is all headed.
They could make it so the AR War-game has a paint shop utility. You pick your troop/mini and open it in the paint booth section of the very same app and paint the mini. There could be an option to copy paint to all mini's or copy to this mini. This way folks can still have the option to have fun painting up our mini's. Im thinking more then likely they will introduce a micro transaction to sell you skins... especially if they give you the game for free. We at Mystic-Realm love what you do! Be blessed in all you put your hand to - Frederick
I would be more inclined to do something like this if they had a AR headset like google glass. I hate having to hold up my phone constantly to see what the board would be.
I have a strong belief that's coming. Do a google search for 'magic leap' and see what you find. Thanks for watching!
I would suggest developing a holder for a cell phone or tablet that goes over the shoulders and mounts the device at an angle to display the table top to the user without blocking their view of the room. Alternatively, a holder that mounts to a corner of the table or can be moved along a track attached to the table or moved from corner to corner.
Funny thing is that I love videogames but the fact that I wanted something in my hands was what got me into the hobby. For lack of better words, I wanted something that felt real, that could stay with me "forever", something that really felt mine. Now I rarely buy games but I'm always itching for new miniatures or models, the whole hobby process, from buying, building and painting got me hooked. I rather paint or build to play videogames nowadays...Hope I made some sense :v
I think TT gaming AR is most definitely in the near future and your phone will play a role. Beyond that imagine a gaming set up that features other hardware, gloves or glasses for example. I'm looking forward to it but will always enjoy the physical painting and building aspect of the game.
I think it will have a place, kind of. I think I would like to see the AR portion replacing the dice rolls, maybe recognising the units on the table and then cinematically playing out the combat / shooting phase. I am not looking forward to people being even more distracted by their phones / tablets whilst we are meant to be playing a game, something which is more of a social interaction for me.
I have a board game (x-com) which is a co-op game vs an app on my phone, really enjoyable but a pain watching your battery count down whilst playing ... I can only imagine that AR will suck the battery dry just as Pokemo Go does at the minute.
i think there is plenty of room for both, and i look forward to it.
I have had 3 games of Table Top Simulator during the lockdown playing 40k, no VR just my PC. Amazing, plain and simple GW needs to look at this and after losing business for over a month I guarantee this is in talks right now. The game already exists and GW is fine to partner with companies for video games these days, and Berserk Games has at least 20 paid DLC partner games right now. I think we can expect an announcement of something like this by the end of 2021 if not sooner. Also I use Universal Battle 2 which is super simplistic and play games like Kings of War with buddies. I never considered these that important until a month ago and now I am straight up ready to buy virtual armies as long as the cost isn't too crazy
I think if the AR could overlay stats, deal with rules and measuring it would vastly improve the market and fun.
I think that AR (using a 3d-camera equipped phone, which I think will be more common very soon) will be most useful as a tool for measuring distances and overlaying stats and ranges for units. It is not too hard to create software that recognizes what model you are aiming the center of your phones camera at and measure distances with a quite good accuracy.
It's as you said a no-brainer. They started doing 3D models for model printing for some time. So they have the models. Now they could make a game for it, texture those models, sell them as virtual pieces to earn money and provide monthly "game scenarios" and maps for players to enjoy. Or maybe even have procedurally generated terrain with a couple of options etc. there are many ways to make those games fun.
So far many AR games seem to make the mistake of real time, which I think would be to hectic, because of the limited view port. But playing any skirmish type of game like Necromunda, or the new Star Wars game would be great. You could look at the table through your phone and select units on the phone screen and place them, the game would simulate the rules and move everything around and you could focus on the fun of actually playing.
At the same time, they could still print the models they had to create for the virtual games anyway and still make money with all other aspects of the hobby. I just hope they find a way to make both things equal to each other. The rules should not suddenly be totally different, nor should the AR version be realtime or something. I think having both "platforms" of the game on equal ground would grow the hobby as a whole. Where you could duke it out AR-style, as you said, in the short work break while eating a burrito + you'd still have all the awesome and fun hobby portions of wargaming.
I think the successful AR app for tabletop wargaming will be the app that keeps all the aspects of the hobby that we love (painting, modeling, sculpting, collecting, and getting away from back-lit screens for a change of pace) but streamlines some of the stuff that can get in the way. An app that recognized all your models and displayed their stats, measured distances, displayed line of sight, etc. That would be AR for wargaming. The full virtual table tops are just a new kind of phone based video game, and a badly implemented version at that. I think we will have great apps that make wargaming more approachable (which will bring in more people), and great phone games that simulate wargaming (which won't take anyone away and may bring new people in). In the long run I think this technology will be great for tabletop wargaming.
Great video and perfect timing as games workshop posted about it on their 40k FB page as well. My personal opinion is this won t replace miniature wargaming but hopefully becomes a gateway for new recruits that will come from the ar games to the tabletop wargames
personally, I could easily see this taking off. For those of us who want to get into the hobby but don't have the time for the crafting or the money for commissions could easily use this to get into it. I could see heavily customized units being digitally made by players. In fact, (i am a writer btw) in my book, this kind of stuff has completely taken over all board games and D&D with the tabletop being portable and the battlefield is more of a hologram than anything else. The units are virtually shown and when (what are now smartphones) are connected, personalized armies or role play characters appear for the game.
This is absolutely going to be a thing. I'm curious to see if these games will get Con tables and do tournaments, a "Machines" tourney at Adepticon for example. I was also super interested in the photogrammetry aspect of the new generations of phones, being able to make a 3D mesh out of anything just using your phone is going to be a game changer.
The hobby contains a lot of different aspects that allow you to feel you're doing different things. Building, painting, gaming and list writing/reading. I feel I'm doing 4 things so I don't get bored. If you condense the hobby into a phone app then that can take that away so I think I would always prefer the current way we do things. However - I would buy the app still and enjoy the novelty of it. The age of sigmar app is great and I love for £0.99 a month I can put all my lists on there so it saves writing them down so I read more as a result. An app like you explained is a good gateway for new gamers / people or whatever but a novelty for those who are already involved. In my experience most of the gamer types that like the craft less tend to be tournament players - the question is will it effect tournaments???
I know I am behind by a year on this particular topic. But the biggest hurdle for me to getting into this hobby, or any other hobby I would enjoy, is the fact the closest place near me that has any type of table top is about 2 and a half hours away. If somebody could develop an app where you could use something like the oculus rift or your phone, where two players could play 200 miles apart with this AR, would definitely get me into starting up an army. The way I would envision this app working is like this. Both players could get a board with sensors in it. Have your table top armies have some sort of nfc chip so the board or your phone could pick up your army and automatically calculate any vital stats. Each player would have dice that again either your phone or your board could pick up what you just rolled. This way your playing with your army and your opponent's army would be on your board virtually. The keys to this working would be that it has to be rock solid where your screens have to match. Additionally I don't know if price points would be a barrier.Pretty much until I retire and move to a place that has this available, or something like the proposed idea comes up, I wont be joining anytime soon. All I will be doing is buying models, finish painting them, then they will either sit on display for a little while then go into a box never to be seen until I decide to get rid of them.
These kinds of things would be cool and could also be very useful in combination with regular tabletop games (seeing which blood bowl players has which skills for instance) but I dont think it'll ever catch on until you can do it without your phone. First of all a full game will probably drain most of your phones' battery and secondly it'll be a hassle to keep the phone in front of your face for possibly hours at a time. When products like the google glass really hits the market though, I think these kinds of games and "game assistant"-apps really will become huge. Great vid! :)
As someone who seriously enjoys both aspects of 40k: The miniatures and the game itself, I feel that AR could be used to great effect to add to the game. Things like measuring distances, dice rolls, cool animations could be done with the game and would only add to the game itself. But due to people enjoying the hobby aspect I don't think it will ever truly replace that.
That looks kewl. I had a concept similar to that except you would use your miniature, structures, etc... but as you moved your character on your screen (laptop?) there would be circles and ovals showing walking, running, and firing ranges that get smaller as fatigue sets in. A 1980s(?) concept, where servers and bartenders (real) would have a device they would look through (AR) and see 3D images of what the patron (face recognition) had ate and drank (pints, shots, etc...) stacked in front of them with a running total above them.
Just so you know, virtual tabletop simulator doesnt require the headset, at least not when I used it.
I think that we will see AR augmenting the actual table top version. I can picture you recording your game, then running it through a program and having the battle play out live and being able to walk around the table etc.
I dont really see full AR taking over. Just seems cheesy to me. Maybe we will see AR terrain, because terrain is much more difficult to transport and AR terrain could be more interactive. Just plop a couple AR tokens in your case and you can set up AR terrain on any table.
Also AR seems like it would have a lot less hold on players. Basically its so easy to pick up that its just as easy to drop. People spend like $400 on models and then arent having fun will often push through and figure out whats wrong. Someone who spent $0.99 on an app will just drop it.
A few years later, and I think the community is what will keep the painting and the terrains etc alive.
I think the AR stuff will get people who didn't know they liked it, into the hobby.
Like I can see kids at school playing these games, but as soon as they grow up, I think they're gonna get into it for real.
I grew up with a lot of video games as a kid, and I still prefer the board and the forever setup to logging onto table top simulator (which by the way you dont need a headset for, and its super popular these days)
It’d be cool if the AR would allow you to record short clips of superimposed explosions, guns firing, Hive Tyrants or Daemons screaming, a teleporting graphic, a drop pod landing thud and dust cloud etc. Would make some epic clips to put in video battle reports!
Wow. This is wild. I can see it to play with friends around the world. But I would miss the social aspect. Some of my fondest memories is gaming in the 80s with friends. Great insight as always.
I would love to see an A.R. app that takes pictures of your miniatures on tabletop and puts them in a combat environment or something like that. So for example instead of just seeing a squad of Space Marines on the table you can see like muzzle flashes from their bolters and debris flying around as well as more troops and explosions going off in the background.
I think that you could fit both into your hobby life. It's cool looking and more realistic, but there also something special about the tangible feel and look of a miniature model. Game companies could also market upgrades for your armies to keep revenue pouring in.
Tabletop Simulator works on laptop too, play through steam. Little more then a phone but still alot less then normally.
My current Pathfinder campaign is all online, on TTS. Well I decided to print out maps and stuff but that wasn't needed to actually play.
It's weird but I like that I can play with people when it's harder to meet up in person.
I could see both sides setting up a physical Terrain one at a time on the board and it replicating it using AR to each side. And A couple cameras posted up on each side or the four corners of the table could help to capture a real time of the game. Then you could display it on your TV...then use your phone to see at game top level. The cameras could then capture the game all the way through and in the end it does a rendering of the entire game of what it would have looked like in real time. It would be AWESOME! AR will be more then just whats on your phone. And what can be done is more then just bunny and dog ears on your head. The gaming community may use it but I think it will be a while before people spend 2-3 hours holding a cell phone up at eye level. I think maybe augmenting so you can see range and stats of what your thinking of aiming at would even more simplify the game to the point where the augmented portion would teach you the game as you go. And it eliminates the cheaters saying something has a little more toughness then it really does...hell you could even throw virtual Dice with it...no more weighted dice. All game changes could be loaded live in real time so you always playing the latest rules.
Manual manipulation in both board wargaming and miniature wargame is the driving force. That is the key subject in my view.
Perhaps some people will be interested in this gimmick, but it is not appealing to WHY we have this hobby.
Weta Workshop recently released the awesome GKR Heavy Hitters board game and also, almost immediately, partnered with an AR company for an unannounced project. I am thinking the two are related, and am super excited for more info.
Also, which video do you talk about uncle tickles?
I could imagine augmented support for tabletop wargames might be a nice thing. Something like augmented bookkeeping or being able to see unit stats, arcs of fire or rules on screen.
I have been a lifelong video gamer. Some of the earliest memories i have are of launching Doom in DOS and using the IDDQD code. Been in love with video games my whole life, spent countless thousands of dollars on gaming pc's, consoles, peripherals, and games over the years. That being said, I love miniature war-gaming (specifically W40K) for completely different reasons. As much socialization is possible through video games voice chat, it doesn't compare with standing across the table from someone in a games store. I play W40K to get out of the house, to STOP staring at a screen, to flex my crafting and creative skills, to play with something REAL that is MINE. (If i don't like how my models/army looks, i can repaint them. If I don't like the scenery, I can change it. If the person I'm playing with and myself don't like a particular rule, we can ignore it for fun's sake. You can't do this in most video games without extensive modding, and that's IF the game allows modding.)
The video game market is currently facing the same troubles it did in the late 80's, publishers and developers are flooding the market with sub-par games in an attempt to cash out. And the gaming community is getting sick of it. Hence all the hubub with the Battlefront 2 microtransactions. If anything AR wargaming is going to bring more people into tabletop gaming. It will show them that there are other ways to game that don't involve controllers or mouse and keyboard. Then when they get exposed to all the fancy painted plastic, the will get hooked like the rest of us. Mainly because having a physical model that is painstakingly detailed and unique will always be more prestigious and rare than just paying for DLC. Tabletop war-gaming has been around for over a century and is still here, and arguably is still growing. Video games have only been around for what? We'll say 40 years? And has already fallen on its face once.
TLDR I think AR war gaming will bring a lot of people into table top gaming by exposing them to the concept. As will the constant decrease in quality coming from the video game market.
a few years late to this party.. however i feel like yes it will happen in the near future, however i think that, akin to digital and audio books, there will always be those who enjoy the physical movement and feel of the pieces, like the pages of a book. i dont know about anyone else, but even the smells of the paint, and the sting of the glue is enough to keep me in the physical world and not the augmented reality.
Could always mix it up with having markers on the table that represent units, which the AR puts on top of as actual 3D models, automates dice-rolls, etc.
I doubt many will move from tabletop gaming because of this, but I can see this being a gateway into the physical gaming world for those who are particularly taken with the gameplay and mechanics.
There is so much potential in this. Financially and in terms of creativity. Everything you´re getting right now as physical bits to upgrade your army could get purchased digitally then. I could imagine myself "painting" and customizing my guys in a virtual army painter for hours. Most of all: The possibility to play against others worldwide with this visually appealing AR technology seems far more attractive to me, than the Tabletop Simulator stuff that a lot of people are using, or the older "Vessel" app (not sure if there is even a community anymore). Additional note: A 40k themed AR game like Xcom would be the bomb, if done properly by people that invest some love and knowledge into it, instead of listening to marketing "experts" like the creators of DoW3. I have spoken.
This + vr cards to be able to easily decide where terrain pieces should go + being able to scan your painted models like in tabletop simulator
Those are still just a virtual games. I think that wargameing survived for so long because ... you know ... we love to touch stuff.
In virtual game, you can't cheat with "extra" 0.5 inch during charge, you can use master Yoda dice rolling techniques and a lot more. That's interesting, but still - Wargameing is alive because... it's not virtual.
Anyway - good upload, as always.
Regards.
AR, if only used like in the demo, is basically motion gaming: clunky controls.
You have to use more physical properties of the world to provide an interesting experience over video games. But if used with physical components, to cut down the setup time, to save the state of a game etc, it can be interesting.
What I would quite like to see, is ar "special effects" so you point the camera at a miniature and it moves, you roll a die and if it gets the required number you get a hit animation. like a digital puppet style thing.
I'd be really interested in an AR app that is used in addition to miniatures. Something where, if you look at the tabletop through the screen, it dynamically shows lines of fire, auras, ranges etc.
Lots of characters have 6" auras, it'd be great to be able to look through a screen and see that bubble without having to keep measuring.
More down the road it'd be cool to see the app working in other ways with mini's. I shoot with my Dreadnought, the app takes my mini and overlays a little animation of it firing, bullets ricocheting off my homemade terrain.
For me, the application of AR in addition to models, rather than instead of, is the most exciting.
I think it will be a thing perhaps a route into the pure tabletop hobby for some and a route out for some. Certainly something that will exist in parallel to the old table top hobby since it has one of its great virtues - the ability to socialize face to face as you game.
I believe that some form of HUD type AR glasses will be needed for this to take off, as very few people will be willing to keep their phone in front of them for 2 hours. As for the hobby side, it will manifest itself as VR painting of your AR kits. You will build, paint and enhance your units using VR or on a computer before presenting them for the match. It will allow even more unique styles to show off your team. More interesting and unique Terrains and it will open up a whole new arena for people who want to play but have no space to do so. It will be another 3-5 years before we see any viable commercial solutions, but they will come.
As an avenue for better Table Management, AR is a good direction to go.
If they can tighten the accuracy of edge detection software, they can greatly reduce the workload for players as far as keeping track of things like Terrain effects, movement ranges, wargear and special rule ranges, unit coherency/proximity.
Depending on how much a company might want to invest in UI, you might even get some unit wargear management, or even virtual dice.
I've always said that AR could best be utilized as an object analysis tool, giving the user a way to catalog items as they're encountered, and a table-top wargame is a good demonstration of that power, in that there are logical constraints on the kind of info that can be obtained in the context of the game, and models are generally of uniform scale and proportion, so identification in real time is less of a tax on the system.
Only real problems are figuring out how to deal with 3rd-party/converted models from a model-recognition standpoint, and accounting for un-based models, both of which can be handled by way of a discovery process rather than by frontloading a library of model schematics.