Toyota GR86 & Subaru BRZ | Should You Buy the Automatic?
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- Опубліковано 17 жов 2024
- Is the Toyota GR 86 still the go to choice for an affordable sports coupe? We took one to the track to find out.
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I feel like the graphs would be easier to read if the Subaru was the blue line, and the red GR86 was the red line. 😅
You have no idea how hard it is to concentrate while I'm doing the data analysis and the car in the test isn't red or blue.
For a daily GR86 in Los Angeles traffic and canyon carving, I too chose the automatic. Don't need to add to my stress levels, those days are over.
Great review. I can confirm that the manual is faster over 100mph by about 4 mph from 40 to 130mph. You can see on turn 6 and the hairpin that there is throttle lag going from brake to throttle on the automatic. The automatic has very wide rpm changes of about 2200rpm from 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th. This could be helped by going with a higher differential ratio. Because of this large rpm gap, when using the paddle shifter your shift will be denied until you reach 4800 rpm so it is better to use automatic sport mode as the car's TCU will hold higher rpm through corners. Great car. Upgrade the brake pads and fluid and hit the track (with 1/2 quart oil overfill in the engine)
Thanks for your information .
Is there any way to shift with paddle beyond 4800 rpm ?
Maybe tune or remap ?
The car needs different gearing in the transmission. When you shift at 7400 RPM then the RPM drops to 5200 RPM. It is understandable why they will deny shift until you reach 4800 RPM because it's only a 400 RPM difference. The Sequential racing gearbox that the cup 86 series uses is a high-quality option
@@jamesinoregon1081
Thanks
Yeah the taller gearing and 3.9 rear end of the auto definitely seems to start hitting an aero wall toward the top of 4th gear. I imagine on a track with longer straights the manual version is going to close that time gap pretty quickly in the 80mph+ sections. Although now I'm curious what it would be like to drive an auto with the 4.10 rear from the manual...
Great review! I also have a 22 GR86 6AT (First rwd sports car). Its primarily my daily, but also do 1-2 HPDE events per year on the same street setup (Conti DWS06+ tires and Hawk HPS 5.0 pads, DOT 4 fluid). The 6AT does have less power, and taller gearing, but its still a relatively fun car both on/off track. Ive had fwd and awd cars in the past, and this has definitely been the most fun for me personally
Thanks for the video - helped me make the decision to go with another automatic, going from the 2020 BRZ to 2023 GR86 - I like that front end better than the new BRZ. And BRZs are pretty scarce around these parts, so that doesn't help things either. The 4.67 rear diff ratio made a big difference on my 2020, and will be moving to the GR86. As will the bilsteins.
Have switched the the rear differential yet? If so, how does it drive now?
Great video - I've got a ChampCar team building an 86 and this video helped push them over the edge to get the slushbox.
Turbo 17 BRZ AT here and love mine. I track and daily mine. Cant go wrong with the AT super underrated in the states. Its big in japan and uk for a reason (AT)
I am considering buying the automatic version .
Thanks for your review and information ❤
Is there any way to shift with paddle beyond 4800 rpm ?
Maybe tune or remap ?
I think the edge for the automatic car in this particular comparison came down to our specific track scenario to a large extent, but I think the takeaway message here is the automatic is a perfectly capable track car. We did most of out laps (including our fastest lap) with the auto version in manual mode, and it would hold a gear all the way to the rev limiter in each gear.
@@Grassrootsmotorsports
Thanks for your quick response
Brilliant review and yes the Automatic is a totally different experience 😊 cheers from Oz 🇦🇺
Were you just in D mode or were you manually shifting the auto? I’ve seen an 86 video at Buttonwillow in an auto with manual mode and the driver was reporting that on downshifts the car wouldn’t let it downshift into 3rd
I’ve seen almost as many BRZ/GR86s at HPDEs as Miatas. I always wonder if people are worried about the right hand oil pressure issue. It’s just so frustrating that a track oriented car could have such an Achilles heel. Or does Subaru know that it’s not a problem?
Oh yeah it's a constant fear out there, especially as the cars are getting more and more into the scene and we're narrowing down patterns for the actual failure mode. But we honestly haven't seen real data yet on the rate of failure per track mile of these cars. There seems to be an issue, yes, but so far it's all anecdotal data. Hopefully as we develop a clearer picture of the failures, and if there is a statistical problem, the companies will step up with a real solution and not leave owners at the mercy of the dealers or regions.
I drove the automatic BRZ not only did I enjoy it, but it was also more comfortable for day to day driving. Will be buying automatic
Yuck.
Hi Jay, When you ran the automatic car, did you shift the gears manually or select a sport mode where it shifted on its own? Thanks
Both. Whenever we test automatics I usually start out using the paddles, but always try a few laps in full auto mode, or a performance mode if it's available. Some cars are closer than others, but most are fastest when you shift yourself. The difference tends to be being in the right gear right at the moment of return to throttle before the apex.
Brakes are big enough. All you need is DOT 4 fluid and track pads. You won’t have any fade.
What data analysis tool do you use? Is that just ApexPro app, or is it something more complex?
In this video we are using data from the Apex Pro.
I really want one of these cars but need to wait a few more years. As a 41 year old that's driven manual my whole life, I gotta say I'm kind of over it. I will likely buy an auto version of this car. I'm an avid sim racer, my setup has a clutch and H pattern shifter and I very, very rarely use it. Being able to left foot brake the whole time and just concentrate on my lines without dicking with heel/toeing simply leads to better laps and racing.
I'm 41 and bought an automatic a month ago. No regrets, I love it. Standards are overrated, IMO. I too would prefer to focus on other things.
I like them. I just wish they could have fixed the oil starving issue. I can't spend money on something like this for the track if the company won't warranty the engine.
Yeah that's a disappointing flaw in a car that's so focused on track use.
Agree. I was literally in the market recently and chose an ND2 MX5 as it was designed for 1.5G sustained lateral. Really, really would have preferred BRZ, but I do run 200TW and a lot at WoT in the south. :(
Now all you have to worry about is broken transmissions :)
Of the ten or so that have spun a bearing on track, all that were unmodified were ultimately warrenteed.
Although I would prefer the BRZ with a Manual Transmission; I just ordered one with an Automatic Transmission. The reason I did is I had extensive shoulder surgery on my right shoulder, so a manual transmission could be a real issue in heavy traffic for me.
I love my turbo track ready daily driver 1st gen 2017 brz AT! :)
I feel like this comparison was flawed from the beginning. The brz and GR86 are tuned differently from factory. Different tuned suspension. The brz is tuned for time attack. A manual equipped brz will definitely beat the automatic equipped brz on the track. This warrants a redo.
Great review, I was wondering if GRM would re-explore used starter level track car platforms, maybe the more affordable options like the miatas, AW11s, sn95 mustangs and 2000s Honda/Toyota/Nissan products (Civic/RSX/TSX/Fit/Celica/Yaris/MRS/SE-R/Micra).
I think the older more popular 90s platforms have started to become more expensive and most new to track drivers avoid the less popular 80s and 2000s models due to not many videos covering them. Would be interested in seeing your team's take on them. I've been tracking my AW11 since last year and its been a blast so far!
It's weird thinking that we actually built projects from a lot of those cars.
But, yeah, the nostalgia tax on '90s cars is definitely real, and it's slowly creeping both directions as '80s stuff becomes more rare and '00s stuff becomes more popular with Gen Z people who are getting real jobs and hungering for the cars of their youth.
One of the real issues with '80s stuff in particular is technology and performance took a couple major leaps after that which rendered a lot of those cars near hazards on track unless they were seriously augmented. As a former AW11 racer myself, I can recall how much effort went into my car to turn lap times that would probably be easily attainable by a modern minivan.
Still, we celebrate our heritage as much as we can in print. We'll try and add some of that stuff into the video mix when we have the opportunity.
@@Grassrootsmotorsports Agreed on all fronts, my first skidpad session on the stock blown struts and mediocre tires in the AW11 is not that far off from the current configuration I'm tracking with. Its completely mediocre in terms of numbers whether its power, lap time or even weight in some aspects (90s hondas and miatas are lighter).
But there's still something about the rawness of the car that was addicting in wanting to get out of the platform, every second earned was meaningless for timed competition but another personal milestone in my journey as a developing driver.
I remember being blown away after learning how to effectively trail brake to get that MR turn-in, and learning the hard way on why you should warm up your tires before pushing hard (hello lift-off oversteer!).
Will look forward to the future video!
@@16bmidniterfoxo Oh yeah it always blew me away how heavy my AW11s were. No car so small with such thin doors should weigh 2600lbs. They must have built those things out of decommissioned Navy ships or something.
@@Grassrootsmotorsports Guessing that was a later SC model? I got a barebone '85, I think mine comes in around 2350 lbs but miatas/MRS's and EF/EG/EK Civics still come in a couple hundred pounds lighter...
On a separate note, it would be awesome to see your tuning/set up notes from your AW11 days, the mk1 community would to have more reference points!
@@16bmidniterfoxo Nope. '85 but loaded. Sunroof, power windows, a/c, factory subwoofer, seats that weigh more than a full sized couch. In Improved Touring trim it dropped a lot of the comfort and convenience bits, but gained a cage. I got it down to about 2350 ready to race, with cage and two fire bottles, still with power windows, but with an aluminum panel replacing the sunroof', as well as Lexan rear glass that allowed the cage to pass through.
Would the cars' different spring rates/tuning and different sway bar placements impact your results? I can't remember which is which honestly, but I think one is "stiffer" in the front and supposedly the Toyota is designed to be more "tail happy?"
It's going to affect the handling a bit, but honestly probably not as much as overall track conditions. The OEM tires are also a real weak link here-the chassis is MUCH more capable than the factory rubber-so a couple % of spring rate or bar stiffness differences may be showing up in areas like turn in speed, but honestly there are probably larger variables at work here. Also, they'll have zero affect on thrust. There's no real worry about whelspin, so while there may be some small differences at corner exit waiting for the front end to have enough grip to go full throttle, the differences in the acceleration curves once the cars are straight are pure thrust.
GR86 is stiffer at the back, softer up front. That matches up to the conventional wisdom of a stiffer rear being more tail-happy.
BRZ being the other way around is better for stability and lap times. The actual spring rate difference isn't huge between the two cars. The stock sway bars seem to have much more of an effect, the BRZ item being hollow and smaller in diameter than the solid GR86 unit.
I was hardcore team manual for 25 years. There's a lot of good autos out there now though and in many cases I'd prefer the auto if it was a car I was looking for a daily.
Again I owned nothing but manuals for 25 years so I know they're not that hard to drive in traffic but they are more annoying to drive in traffic than autos.
If I was looking to buy a joy car for weekend and track use I'd probably go manual in most cases just for the extra engagement.
The performance of this particular auto-equipped car continues to be one of our biggest surprises. Part of it is it was kind of the perfect storm of being particularly well-suited to our test track and the particular corner speeds and straight lengths, but it still took the release of the current BRZ tS model to dethrone it as our fastest Twin.
I think most people would still take the manual despite it being 1 second slower on a 1.5 mile track.
No disagreement here. And I think you can see in the data that at higher speeds the manual car started closing the gap. I think on a longer track where 4th and 5th gear are more in play the results are closer, if not flipped.
Why is it that the auto has worse 0-60 time, but faster track acceleration?!
This stumps me a bit. Perhaps it is tuning for the automatic? I wonder how the auto would handle autocross?
Yeah join the club. I think a lot of it is our test course being particularly favorable to the auto gear ratios. I think in an autocross situation you're going to gain time on launches and out of slow digs with the manual, but I still think it would be closer than people expect. Also, on longer tracks, I think the manual erases the deficit. On the data you can already see the manual closing the gap in 4th gear, as aero resistance rises and that torque converter is fighting more and more drag. Still, I think what this shows is just how good modern automatics have gotten-even traditional torque converter automatics. We're not in a world anymore where the manual is the default best choice. I think that's great news for track enthusiasts that may not be comfortable with manual transmissions because of a skill or physical limitation.
Is there anything an auto owner can do to increase its longevity as an HPDE car long term? I mean a clutch can be changed but an auto?
That's a really good question, actually. Maybe someone smarter than me can add some context, but I'm kind of thinking that there's actually not much slip inside a planetary automatic, so internal wear should be manageable. As with any lubricated system, the first step in prepping for extreme duty is keeping fluid temps under control, so a supplemental trans cooler is probably a good idea, but beyond that, maybe we can get a proper transmission tech to provide some insight.
Motorweek put the auto at 6.4 to 60 if you do you absolute best with a manual you might be able to get 6.1 to 6.3 the fact is the automatic is more consistent 6 .4 every time and better you can consintrate better on steering and braking 😮😮inputs I know everyone likes to think they are a professional level driver and be in control The fact is the auto transmission is better than most humans at shifting
Car and Driver got 5.4 secs 0-60mph with the 6MT GR86. Mid-5's is just not going to happen in the 6AT with its taller gearing. 6.1 secs was their best 0-60mph with a 6AT GR86.
When do we get to see the GR Corolla on the FIRM?
Oh man we're trying. Toyota has very few in the US press fleet at the moment, and none are anywhere near us. We're being constant pests in their inbox, though. We dove the car on track at the launch, and although we had nothing to compare it to, it was amazingly tossable. I think it'll be right in there with the CTR and the N cars.
Safe to assume the auto has shorter gearing?
noo i think it has taller gears
@@Omtla Correct. Auto has slightly taller individual gears as well as a taller 3.9:1 rear end vs a 4.1:1 final drive for the manual. I think a lot of what we're seeing here is just that our test track turned out to be particularly well-suited to the automatic.
How far apart were the tests?
Over a year, and with much cooler conditions for the auto BRZ, so take those track conditions into consideration when it comes to lap times. But thrust curves don't lie, and the automatic BRZ's acceleration surprised us far more than we expected.
@@GrassrootsmotorsportsI think you've just pointed out the reason for the difference in acceleration.
yall should doa video with the elantra N
We'll see what we can do.
Okay done: ua-cam.com/video/qgOmfstH2eQ/v-deo.html
Switching to auto ruins today's best anti theft device. Although the twins trans aren't exactly anything to write home about. (Grinding,throw out bearing, feel,etc)
They may not be world-beaters, but the landscape is becoming barren of affordable, rear-drive sporty cars. At least we still have these.
ya ... make a look fast but don't go fast car even slower... you do that ..
This cars engine will literally blow up on track. Research it
I think it's absolutely ridiculous this car comes in a automatic but I understand why it does
In a perfect world, everyone would know how to drive a stick. But it's not a perfect world. On the upside, everyone who buys a GR86 still gets a NASA membership and a free entry to a track day. So with the automatic being a perfectly capable track machine, that opens the doors of track culture to a much wider audience.
Why would you take an option from someone else? If you want you can get manual, but never deny the desire for alternatives.
I love my GR86. I drive it in stop and go traffic to work everyday. If it didn't come in an automatic I'd be driving something else.
For the record, I know to drive stick shifts and even test drove a standard GR86. It was no contest.
No!
Don't bother watching the video the answer is no
Ummm No.