Incline Presses a Waste of Time?! Advanced Chest/Pec Biomechanics with Hypertrophy Coach Joe Bennett
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- Опубліковано 29 сер 2024
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my left air pod loved this
My left one as well.
Mine thought it was ok
yeah it takes the audio of whos standing who. i thought mine was broken
Jeff Cavaliere says you should train your right ear to avoid muscle imbalance
@@Josh_Tsu1067 Yes… Left ear only is killing your ear gains
All fibers help pull but you absolutely do hit parts a little more depending on angle of the bench. There are a litany of studies that have shown that you get more upper chest muscle fiber activation from incline bench (60% vs 30% from flat bench).
The issue is that the upper chest doesn't add volume as easily as the mid and lower chest on some people.
There are also people who incline the bench too much and end up hitting their anterior delts more than chest.
If incline did nothing, people would have been doing 9 sets of flat bench rather than varying the angles a long time ago.
Nice use of “litany”. And yup, that’s why I’m the video I say you should still program incline and decline as well as flat.
I had terrible pec shape. My upper chest was flat but lower pecs were developed. I bought into this approach and did flat bench only for many years. Got up to 140kg for reps but my chest looked female.
Adding in incline dB presses with elbows flared has transformed my pec shape.
Plus for once I started to get DOMS in my upper chest.
Same exact story to a T
Getting your bench bigger really didn't add to your chest at all? It's tough for me to believe that putting on say 50kg on your bench didn't get your pecs (and arms/shoulders) significantly bigger. I can see why it's not the most optimal way, but the chest should still grow in some form. You think it's just because you lacked variation in your programming at the time and started to get too accommodated?
@@bendunksdpt well it probably added mass all over but the disproportionate hypertrophy in the lower chest made my upper chest look even worse. I had a weird booby chest shape as friends commented.
It wasn't a fat problem either
Totally different for me. Everybody said focus on incline so that was what I did. After i focused on flat my upper chest started to grow. Weird.
@@jonasrih yeah when I first did incline years ago I couldn't feel it in my pecs. Just shoulders and not in a very nice way. Years later a really focusing on technique it clicked for me.
Sounds interesting in theory. However, personal experience dictates otherwise. Find what works for you, but the vast majority can benefit from incline work.
Low to high position cable cross-overs, with isometric static holds to develop the mind-muscle connection. For me, it had been really difficult to make that connection in the upper chest from mainly flat-bench approach. Push-ups on a bosu-ball with feet elevated on the bench are really effective for me. if you can't feel it, you can't grow it.
I'm someone that had worked out my chest a lot, but had a flat upper half, just kind of slightly went in and plateu'd. I started doing mostly incline fly's, and now I have the space above the ceter-chest more developed, so it doesn't just look like two pec's, then flat going into the neckline. I saw an improvement. I know the science says theoretically you can't target parts of the muscle, but I feel more pressure when I do certain movements, and it seems to more fully develop the muscle with different ROM's. I'm a believer, but I don't know that I could pull up a study to back what i'm saying. Just remember doing chest as often if not more than any other muscle group a few years ago, and being disappointed with the aesthetics - was doing fly's as well as flat bench. Started doing dumbell incline, and then fly incline's, and eventually it shaped out so the top'ish area was more full, almost above the chest. just what I experienced though.
Golden era methods built the most and best muscle science is B.S look at what it did for covid and vaccines 😂
Agreed. If you watch his newest video on the shoulder press he has a better philosophy similar to what you said. He says all 3 delt heads get activated in the shoulder press.....but the lines of force and the load with gravity are more directly against the anterior delt. So you get more activation there which results in more growth. So he said if you really want to grow your lateral delts then pick exercises that directly loads them and where they are the primary movers, but if you don't really care and a little bit of growth is fine then the shoulder press enough.
With that same idea on larger muscles if you feel certain region get more taxed/stimulated then that portion is most likely taking more load and has more potential for growth. Anecdotally I used to do a lot of barbell hack squats(instead of squats due to back pain) and it ended up blowing up the medial head of my quads....and my outer quad sweep was almost non existent and grew fractionally. So I do believe certain parts of the muscles can be loaded. But this type of targeting is more feasible on the larger muscle groups and when you have good mind muscle connection.
I personally prioritize upper chest for the sole reason that I have a much better connection with my entire chest when doing those specific movements. I also have injuries that are exacerbated more so during flat bench then with incline. I like to think that my chest is growing proportional but I mean I don't really have the choice otherwise. Awesome insight though and it really made me feel much better about my routine. Lol
I do the same, as flat bench usually gives me shoulder pain. (So sometimes I'll do flat DB press later in the workout, so I'll have to use less weight)
@@cyclist5000 exactly! Pre exhaustion is def a friend when you have pre existing injuries lol.
@@cyclist5000 I have you tried using the shoulder saver pad from elitefts? It's a game changer I had shoulder pain from doing flat bb press the pad helped me alot.
@@ctsingletonboxing2829 No, I don't want something that limits my range of motion.
Same here man. I don’t do any flat press with free weights at all if i do a flat press it’s gotta be on a machine otherwise I get shoulders issues. Incline at 30 degrees just feels a lot more comfortable and more of a natural pressing angle for me personally and has for quite some time. But i also understand everyone’s biomechanics are different
Specific exercises lay more stress on the area in question for sure as that part is sore the next day!And will definitely lead to muscle hypertrophy!
I had a very flat and small chest. Started to train 3 years ago, doing a lot of bench press (flat). 2 years later my lower chest got quite nice, not huge, but it was clearly visible. However, the upper portion was still flat, it was like I had a missing muscle, it was in a way worse than before. So I started to do incline bench press, at a small angle, about 30 degrees. And now, one year later, I can see the upper chest starting to take a nice shape. Maybe it's just me, but I doubt it... incline is needed for upper chest.
I disagree, someone who has been benching off and on for over 40 years, I can see a big difference in my upper pecks getting bigger, when I do incline bench presses. I can also tell that heavy dumbbells give me a better pump, than using a barbell.
i stopped doing chest as i found out women got jealous.
😂
This is amazing thank you joe 💪
Your band demo nicely shows that you can't completely isolate. However, I used to train only one exercise per body part for 8-10 week cycles and found that incline presses noticeably filled out my upper chest more than flat benches which built my lower chest more. Just my experience.
I used to never do incline bench press and only flat bench press. I switch to doing incline in the beginning and sometimes only incline bench presses as my heavy compound movement for chest day. I saw a lot of changes. I think maybe it depends on the person and how they are put together but for me personally, I'm a believer. I never had any muscle mass to speak of in my upper pecks. I feel like the incline barbell bench press is just an all-around better movement for me anyway. I can only do a flat bench for 3-4 months before I have to take a break because it's tweaking my shoulders. Incline bench press never gives me trouble as long as I don't ego lift. I do think flat bench is a good movement if your body can tolerate it.
Agreed.. the heavier you go the more muscle fibers get recruited and the more of the entire pec is activated.. I believe that pretty much goes for any muscle grouping for the most part... but that doesn't negate what using lighter weight in very controlled movements and in a variety of angles can do for further muscle development! It's one thing to grow a given muscle or gain some overall mass but it's an entirely different thing to hone and chisel that mass down to something aesthetically pleasing and beautiful. JMHO
The way i always saw it is that altho a flat bench will grow all the pec “regions” equally, since most people start with a larger “lower” and “mid” chest their upper chest will still look smaller even if they all grow the same proportionally so an exercise that biased it is better.
Try all the angles and see what you connect the best with, we’re not all built the same so there is always going to be limiting factors. As generic as weight lifting may sound, it still needs to be fine tuned and tapered to what works best for you. Take everything with a pinch of salt.
Best comment right here 👏🏾
Wonderfully explained..
Joe you are the best 💪🏻
People put way too much thought into simple exercises. Just do which ever exercise you feel the most. If you don’t feel your chest during incline then don’t do it. If you do then do it. No exercise is a waste of time if it’s working for you. It’s not rocket science
I think upper chest is important to develop for the most part I stopped doing flat bench barbell, I felt that inclines were developing my chest way better
Try Franco Columbu high incline presses. Works a treat.
I find that the old fashioned inclines and flyes totally change the upper chest!
Neat information and very great stuff. I really enjoyed seeing all of this in action and it is very true you can work a major muscle but there are always other smaller and supportive muscles that contribute to the maximum output you push out with the effort you want to achieve. Very great stuff
Look at Franco Columbo and you will see somebody with crazy upper chest development.
I stopped going gym 2014 and worked out at home
I just did push ups at home for chest and my chest hardly lost much size
BTW I'm 240lbs at 6ft tall
great stuff!
Most serious powerlifters exclusively focus on flat bench press with assistance movements also focused on the middle pressing plane...and they usually still have exceptional clavicular pec development.
Most serious powerlifters have A) exceptional genetics and B) are enhanced, so don't use them as the bench mark (lol)
The pecs are prime movers of shoulder flexion and horizontal adduction. Incline creates shoulder flexion therefore you should incline if you want to really hit the pecs. Pressing from flat is essentially tricep ext.
I think it depends on your leverages.
Mountain dog said a minimal incline is all that is needed for upper chest activation.
Makes a lot of sense. Mike O Hearn for example is super strong and does almost all incline and always starts with incline. Good chest, but not massive or noticeable upper. If anything seems hand placement and degree of elbows affects upper lower focus more, but nothing substantial.
fitness is amazing, anyone with some muscles has an opinion, which is different then the next guy, just keep it simple, don't juice, eat right. stick with an influencer u trust, there's a few good ones, keep lifting.
I love how fast this guy talks bc its how my brain works. Only yt I don’t have to watch on 2x speed. Maybe im autistic
You are right , however.. muscles also growth from further contracting and isometrics. When i do fly's for the lowest part of my chest with 1 arm at a time ...if i touch my upper part of the chest it barely contracts and it does not bulge as much , if i move my arm around mid or above it really contracts my upper inner pec fibers . Overall chest is a whole muscle with many fibers , however.. u can clearly put more emphasis and contraction to the upper side if u want to, how big it will go is just genetics , even on gear.
I feel like you certainly have to squeeze certain specific section of the pec (depending on which exercise you are doing). If I were to just squeeze my whole pec I would develop shoulder problems over time. Say I'm doing flat bench and I try and squeeze the fibers of the clavicular portion of the pec, it would cause my shoulders to round forward because they are pulling the humeral head in a suboptimal position. I have had severe shoulder impingement for quite some time and after almost 2 years of trying to avoid certain exercises I have started to break down the motor patterns that aggravate it. One of the main things causing my shoulder pain is front delt weakness due to purposefully trying to avoid pressing with delts and instead pressing with only chest and scapular "pushing"
HI, joe. do certain oblique exercise makes your abs look thick and hence should be avoided(like obliques done on hyperextension machine). please cover this topic in the future
It depends on your genetics, and how much volume and load you do on the exercise. I feel like the abs can take a long time to actually hypertrophy since they're so used to being used in other exercises on a daily basis. Just try to find abs exercises that you enjoy and feel working the abs and you should be ok.
Just do cable flys and call it a day 👍
Well, I experienced something else. During my first years of training, I mostly did bodyweight exercises. One of my favourite was dips, and I became quite good at it. I grew a big lower chest (compared to my other body parts), but almost no upper chest. One day, someone even told me my pecs looked like boobs… I succeeded to grow my upper chest only when I started to do horizontal flies with a resistance band.
Same with the powerlifting style benching
Exactly. I love Joe’s content but I think this vid misses the mark. I’ve seen so many guys with boob pecs in the gym that just seem to do a bunch of flat presses and then you look at someone like Arnold who did do a lot of incline stuff and was well known for his upper pec shelf. I think it can be hard to see those differences develop in a short space of time because the different heads are all part of the same muscle and because yes they will all be working to some extent, but you absolutely can preferentially target a particular head. Line up a muscle fibre with an action and it will undoubtedly work harder, that is simple biomechanics. Therefore, incline pressing is a brilliant exercise because the majority of guys want a dominant upper chest since it looks much better than having man boob pecs.
After only one year of training, your whole chest was underdeveloped. Depending on your insertion points, an underdeveloped chest can often look like "boobs". Your upper chest takes a while to completely fill in. It's likely that the flies made your whole chest grow, which gave the illusion that your upper chest filled in.
@@vertexmuscle4791 I agree, except for the incline pressing, which may be a good exercise for you, but not for everyone, depending on one’s morphology. My shoulders were much more involved than my upper pecs. For me, horizontal flies are far more efficient : muscle fibers are lined up with the movement and I get tremendous contraction of the upper pec.
You may have missed the point of the video. It’s more for a better understanding of how your pecs actually work, than to make exact exercise perceptions. (As in the video I say to still program 3 different movements)
My anecdotal evidence says otherwise
Very cool, lovely to see you on this seminar format. Was this with Tom Purvis?
This was me hunter and Terrence r
@@HypertrophyCoach cool! I hope to see more clips of the event if possible, either here or on the member's site
It’s common sense but someone had to say it! A lot of bullshit out there in the fitness world thanks for championing an honest thorough approach!
The issues are: a) posture that far exceeds the recycled “shoulders back chest out”, look at people with gyno, they signal the brain to weaken their upper back and cave chest in, without necessarily dropping the shoulders. That’s why different machines hit differently. And b) it’s how people engage muscles during the workout. That muscle-mind connection goes many levels, it isn’t just closing the eyes and feeling a pump. Try only activating the chest fibers, see if you can do 1/5th of your current weight.
So TLDR you gotta fix your entire body first and then work out. For teenagers that’s not an issue since their bodies are still virgins. For a grown up dude tho with hours of labor and/or injuries (especially core injuries), it ain’t the same.
I think it is the other way around. Since all fibers of the pec help its development, it is important earlier on in training to make the body "aware" of the muscle. If you teach the mind to fire properly all pec areas, THEN they will all help in the execution of the weight lifting and therefore will grow from its load. There is a lot of bias in here simply because most people that have decent pecs continued to go to the gym while the ones that did not stopped. When you have a decent mind muscle connection you WILL grow. Up to that point it will be very hard to grow properly.
The older you are, the more incline bench/flyes matter (genetics also plays a role of course). Referencing someone right out of college proves nothing
Interesting, why do you say that?
Sagging man boobs? It's an epidemic. Flat benches don't help. Trust me, you will be there. I ONLY do inclines and don't care about big weight, I do 185 for reps or 70 lb dumbbells
So it seems the message here is it doesn't matter which portion of the chest you concentrate on it's the amount of work you put in that gives the desired affect.
All I can say is that I get a sore lower chest from doing dips and a sore upper chest from doing incline dumbbell presses. I've never had a sore upper chest from doing dips or a sore lower chest from doing inclines.
Using a stronger arch might accentuate the lower chest more
I remember reading something about how individual clavicular insertions dictate whether or not incline press will build the upper chest at all, where lower clavicles (genetic blessing) = a low 15 degree incline is all that’s needed to beef it up, and high insertions (fairly common) = don’t bother. In either case, your typical 30 degree incline press doesn’t have much use (much less 45) apart from a front delt exercise, but then you may as well just do OHP. Thoughts on this?
Even if it is "old school" or bro science, if someone goes from flat barbell bench to incline dumbell press and that gives them better chest development and chest mind muscle connection, they've grown their upper chest successfully. They grew the >entire chest< and that includes the portion which is upper chest as you said. So, even though the lingo was imperfect, old school bros knew that different angles and a mix of dumbells and machines gave them a better stimulus to fatigue ratio (before that term existed)
You’ve missed the point of the video I believe. It’s to better understand chest mechanics, not make specific exercise prescription. (In the video I still say to do incline, decline, flat, etc)
HC:" I have never seen anyone develop one part of their chest "
me: I did 💁♂
If I understood this correctly : you activate your chest fully all the time.
So what is the point of doing upper chest ?
I mean Even sitting and I flex my chest as I slowly raise my arm (while flexing me chest w/ my arm out in front) I can definitely feel the mid chest loose tension. So your probably right you probably get full activation on the eccentric phase of the movement but I can say that while out a doubt in my mind there is more "upper" chest activation on the concentric phase.
But hey I am just a random youtube comment.
What are you guys talking about? This is why you shouldn't just listen to one guy online. All you need to develop a balanced chest is a single movement that develops the entire muscle, and there is one. Its the decline, converging press. At the right decline angle, you hit the entire pec. The best machine that I've used and now own for this is the hammer strength plate loaded decline press. TRY IT! The incline chest press has far too many risks associated with it for shoulder health, its not the right risk/reward exercise.
Since there are two pectoral muscles with fibers in completely different directions, simple logic contradicts your thesis.
I own the machine, do you? Have you used it? Do you have a properly developed pec to actually be able to feel the upper contraction?
Definitely not. I am fed up with new coches etc.
Thanks for making me think my right earbud was broken.
Even if you think you're getting a more all around body it's worth it
If you keep your elbows out and a wider grip on incline chest press, you will get more upper chest development. I know, bc i proved it 30 years ago in my own training.
Thx Joe
algo comment, good content coach
You can put your hand on your upper chest and feel the difference in contractions based on which angle you press. All the fibers contribute, but the direction you press determines which fibers engage more. I don’t agree with his theory.
Wow great explanation. I just have 1 question. If that is the case why is it that I can target certain areas of the chest more than others. Like I can target and only feel my upper pecs and my lower pecs. If I only feel my upper pecs is it still working the whole pec?
Flex Lewis brought up his upper chest!!!
I feel my upper chest when doing OHP with slight incline on the bench. Sometimes I get more DOMS in the chest than my shoulders so I incorporated some Cable Y Raises as well. Do all these sound normal to you?
So basically if I’m putting chest at my mev to prioritize something else then I can just do a few sets of bench on my push days and be good overall
When I do Incline under my collarbone and upper chest gets sore and flat my lower titty gets sore. So imma just continue believing that it can't target areas to significant degree.
I do incline bench press only and dips for lower and mid chest
Tell Arnold you dont need to do incline...lol
Sure thing!
Hey Joe! I suspect you regard the RTSm course under Purvis well? Would you recommend it? - If RTSm would be your number 1 highest valued cert, what would be the second in line?:)
Yup! My top recommendation. I like Functional Anatomy Seminars group for kind of “corrective stuff”
Hey Joe, wouldn't it be better to do a reverse grip bench press for upper chest? Also, if you're in reverse grip, do you get any advantage doing it on an incline Vs flat.
No. The reverse grip shows more EMG activation in the upper chest because of the arm path being closer to the body, leading to more upper chest activation. You can just do close grip bench for more upper chest if you want to do that.
This is not correct lol
Waiting on black friday for lifetime member ship
yeah, i wonder why those nfl players are jacked...
Then you never met me then bc I have a time line of my body from 2009 to now . You can see my Poor chest development for years from not being trained right . As soon as I started engaging the clavicular head right my chest started to change drastically . I think some people just need the direct stimulation to certain areas to cause change . Like you really gotta get a good connection with that muscle
Totally.. now I've built my upper chest I can engage it more.it was literally asleep and didn't grow from flat variations.
@@kh-wg9bt Hell yes exactly. some guys can get away without isolating that and properly engage in the muscle and still get growth. Especially if that particular muscle they happen to be genetically gifted with. Everyone has strong and weak body parts. The only way to bring up weak body parts is to develop a sick ass mind muscle connection with that weak body part. Once you do you then can trash it and now change the muscle ! I thought for years that I was just fucked genetically and I would never have a good upper chest. I was wrong as hell lol.
I don’t think we have met. And in the video, I say you should train upper chest…so maybe you’ve missed the point of the discussion a bit.
This is just not accurate and it doesn't take science to figure it out. Go to the gym, do loads of incline presses, where are you sore the day after? Specifically in the upper chest - now you know.
How could we attend one of your seminars?
Oh yea just progress from 1 to 6 plates a side on the bench press.. we’re all capable of that. 🤦♂️
You can do it! 👊
All genetics
How about those guys that have a caved in center chest? ..oof
His anecdotal idea has little evidence. There is much evidence to support regional hypertrophy and he mentions nothing about lat involvement at different angles.
My upper pec area did not grow until I implemented more directional movements for those muscle fibres. I also feel it in those upper fibres when I do specific movements.
Ever try doing dips at an angle and watch your pecs work?1 You can see every time you go down to mid to lower watch your pecks fire. Yes your theory is partially right saying you aint saying you don't need it to build but you're also wrong on the other side of the glass
I want someone to explain to me what he is talking about so that I can translate the words, please.
Algorithms
What happened to sound here??? 🤣
I've rarely seen someone contradict themselves so many time in 4 minutes lol. I mean, he admitted that the fibers most advantageously lined up for a normal chest lift will be the most stimulated but then tries to say that that same logic wouldn't work for an upper chest biased lift. Its very common to have a filled out middle/lower chest and no upper chest... lol.
I can assure you after 10 years of lifting weights and having to prioritize upper chest with (you guessed it) upper chest lifts that this guy is completely wrong.
I agree with you on my own experience ihave a big chest but lacked the upper pec till I started prioritizing it then it grows and I have a more esthetic develop chest
Thanks for the comment Wayne! I think you may have missed the point of the discussion though.
Flat bench, cable flys or pec deck and weighted dips. You’re welcome.
Study this study that ffs just DO IT and if it works for you then do it
If anyone listened to the last minute this guy was talking it's basically like he's just throwing out a little bit of "ehh I don't know what I'm really talking about and ehhh probably" it's the word " probably" or "you might" iland I know some other people out there personally who use the same words. I don't like people who use those words because it shows an uncertainty of what they're saying.. he goes from "science" then ends with his "personal opinion. "I'm pretty sure and probably" "crunches will work your entire ab region and also your obliques, given that they're all in the same line of contraction, it'll even work your quads and chest to, because you are lifting your chest in an upward angle, given that you bring your elbows in on every rep and more then likely your knees will be bent in the process, making your quads contract. Dude, just give the public the proper information, not personal opinion.
It’s not personal opinion. It’s my professional opinion. Great comment though.
🔥🔥
It's true. The whole upper chest exercises are a myth. For example, a guy with no genetics can train upper chest for 10 years and still have no upper chest; a guy with genetics can train lower chest for one week and have a massive upper chest. Genetics.
And a guy with great genetics can train upper chest exclusively and his chest looks amazing! The Operative is word here is, GENETICS!!! 🔑
good video, shame only my left ear can enjoy it😔
Yeah lol chest are a waste for me.
Algorithm.
👊🙏
So just some flat-ish, incline-ish, and ish the rest. Ok. Got it.
could imagine being born without mid Pecs🙃
Inclines don't *emphasize* the upper/clavicular pec fibres, they *de-emphasize* the lower pec fibres shifting more work onto the anterior deltoids.
Hence why the available research/EMG testing shows a similar degree of upper pec activation in Incline Presses & Declines/Weighted Dips at the same relative intensity.
Yup
1
Thanks for the waste of time.
Omg is that the guy from the back pain channel!?
Yea. Just barbell bench and OHP. Don’t take advice from fake natties
My left ear enjoyed
Mine too
right ears are overrated anyways