“Characters aren’t black and white, characters come in shades of grey, some are darker and some are lighter. Not every character is truely evil and not every character is truly good. That’s were the deeper character comes from.” -George R.R. Martin (paraphrase)
@@austinmasoni1896 What an insult. You have no notes to offer Tolkien. Tolkien was a WW1 veteran and a lifelong scholar; he wasn’t naive about human nature. He had a specific vision in mind with LOTR and wanted other colors from the palette than just muddled grays. Don’t warp what GRRM enjoys about realism into a message that the ocean of creative choices that is Fantasy should be reduced into a puddle called moral-ambiguity-only-Fantasy. The only note here for future writers is simply to weigh the pros and cons between idealization vs. realism, and to settle on what fits their creative vision best.
@@austinmasoni1896 Have some fucking respect. Tolkien is one of the greatest writers who ever lived. You are not worth the dirt under his shoe. How dare you think you have "notes" to offer him?
@@Jordan-ob7nz I cannot believe the audacity and disrespect of some people. Martin is a great writer, but Tolkien was in a godlike tier. No other writer is on his level.
GRRM: "I believe in grey characters, i don't do black and white." Ramsay's wiki page: "He openly enjoys abusive practices such as having young women stripped naked and released into the Bolton forests, before hunting them with a pack of feral dogs. He gives a quick death to women who give him good sport (after raping them first), then flays their corpses. He likes to name his dogs after the women he enjoys most to "honor" them. The women who do not give him good sport are raped and then flayed alive. The skins of his kills are brought back with him to the Dreadfort as gruesome trophies. The bodies of the woman are fed to his dogs"
Tolkein's story was about the battle between cosmic evil and cosmic good. That being said, there was nuance in Lord of the Rings that Martin is uncharitably glossing over. The orcs were once elves and men. They were corrupted by evil and used as pawns. Saruman started good and turned to evil because of fear. Characters like Gandalf and Galadriel were tempted by The Ring. Furthermore, Sauron's desire to control the world was out of a misguided desire to bring order to it. He wasn't simply evil for the sake of evil. In Mordor when Frodo is captured by Orcs, the orcs talk about looking forward to the end of the war. They talk about finding new homes. There are shades of gray in Lord of the Rings, even if the overall war is between cosmic "black and white".
Agree. Our friend here pointed out something obvious to anybody with two ears and then completely missed the entire point of another far superior series. Not to say he isn't a fantastic author but he's not a legend.
As far as human information can tell cosmic good and cosmic evil aren't a thing, they're not real. These are the plots of children's stories, so Martin's criticism stands. Martin isn't glossing over anything that matters because at the end of the day "Good vs evil" is the entire plot, regardless of how that concept was later expanded upon outside of the series itself.
@@culturalliberator9425Tolkien is only a legend because he wrote his books a thousands years ago. As time goes on people will recognize more and more how little his books have going on in them, regardless of how much work he put into them. They're impressive, they're not legendary.
@@NottherealLucifer You should look into the thematic undertones of LOTRs. I would agree the world building leaves a lot to be desired but the fundamental aspects of humanity, temptation, and God are all extremely powerful and well placed in the series. Something that is entirely absent if many other series even that of our good friend here, though not to say such things as temptation do not exist in his series as well but they leave something lacking in substance and the powerful subtly of a Legend. Even if I have a wide rang of things to beat Tolkien over with I would still confess that the power of his stories are Legendary. As you said yourself, he was the first. How original would these other fantasy authors be if not for him? Not very I would suspect, he created the fantasy worlds as we know them even if his direct one to ones are gone. He is a Legend even if his stories can be picked apart, you will never get past the solid core of his stories and their impact.
"Ok, so here's how you do it: first have your character sleep with her brother, then you kill all her incest children, and then you kill her. Now that's how you write a complex character." - George R. R. Martin
Same. Assuming the Ramsay storyline was ripped from George's plan with Harry the Heir, she will finally get the character development she needs. She's still sold on the songs, the handsome knights and chivalrous do-gooders, of which we have seen few (Quick shout out to See Garlan "The Gallant" Tyrell, one of only a handful of characters who fit Sansa's ideal lol). After Harry the heir brutalises her, she'll finally get the character development of seeing the good in men beyond looks, leading to her *choosing* to be with Tyrion or Sandor, in the end.
@@franck5599 No one said a woman must go through that in order to develop. Stop adding your political slant to a place it isn't needed. I never made a statement on women. I made a statement on Sansa.
Bruh did you just say there isn't any grey in the Hound, as for the other I agree I think we'll find out more about them in the next book and I'll add Cersei to that list she isn't much grey to be fair
@@stormrhode2330 oh okay, I feel like the mountain is like that because he suffers from severe brain migraines and is completely addicted to milk of the poppy so his is mainly because of drug addiction I'd say, it's not the main reason but it definitely has a part
Well, she's not showed enough tho. Jaime was pretty 1D character, who was just asshole, but the moment we got chapters from his POV and seen him developed he turned into very grey and even kinda whitish character. Maybe Shereen is planning to murder everyone, who knows...
"Yeah." -GRRM, 2018
"white" -Gurm, ca. 2000 a.d.
was he racis? is gurm a racis?
“Characters aren’t black and white, characters come in shades of grey, some are darker and some are lighter. Not every character is truely evil and not every character is truly good. That’s were the deeper character comes from.” -George R.R. Martin (paraphrase)
Please jk rolling and jrr Tolkien and any other future writers TAKE NOTES on this
@@austinmasoni1896 I don't think Tolkien is taking notes
@@austinmasoni1896 What an insult. You have no notes to offer Tolkien. Tolkien was a WW1 veteran and a lifelong scholar; he wasn’t naive about human nature. He had a specific vision in mind with LOTR and wanted other colors from the palette than just muddled grays. Don’t warp what GRRM enjoys about realism into a message that the ocean of creative choices that is Fantasy should be reduced into a puddle called moral-ambiguity-only-Fantasy. The only note here for future writers is simply to weigh the pros and cons between idealization vs. realism, and to settle on what fits their creative vision best.
@@austinmasoni1896 Have some fucking respect. Tolkien is one of the greatest writers who ever lived. You are not worth the dirt under his shoe. How dare you think you have "notes" to offer him?
@@Jordan-ob7nz I cannot believe the audacity and disrespect of some people. Martin is a great writer, but Tolkien was in a godlike tier. No other writer is on his level.
Him saying I've always been fascinated by human beings makes me think that he's actually an alien. LOL!!!
Holy shit new theory to talk about!
Plot twist: Martin is an alien, who just writes about the history of his planet.
@@bitterfox518 Then which character of the history of his planet is he?
Godness...I hope that he isn't Euron...
@@pedroalitovar6624 he's Tyrion...he's a dwarf....his people are all giants
I love this man and his great genius.
The people who make the live action Disney movie should watch this
Not every story NEEDS to have grey characters. Classic tales of good and evil still have their place.
GRRM: "I believe in grey characters, i don't do black and white."
Ramsay's wiki page: "He openly enjoys abusive practices such as having young women stripped naked and released into the Bolton forests, before hunting them with a pack of feral dogs. He gives a quick death to women who give him good sport (after raping them first), then flays their corpses. He likes to name his dogs after the women he enjoys most to "honor" them. The women who do not give him good sport are raped and then flayed alive. The skins of his kills are brought back with him to the Dreadfort as gruesome trophies. The bodies of the woman are fed to his dogs"
Pedro Oliveira He likes dogs
I hope this is for comedic purposes, the women in his series are given open variety of women, just like the men.
“Some characters are a very dark grey”
Wikipedia articles can be written by anyone *:shrug:*
Your comment just means you dont understand his writing. Cuz Ramsey and Joffrey both have some relatable aspects of their character.
Tolkein's story was about the battle between cosmic evil and cosmic good. That being said, there was nuance in Lord of the Rings that Martin is uncharitably glossing over.
The orcs were once elves and men. They were corrupted by evil and used as pawns. Saruman started good and turned to evil because of fear. Characters like Gandalf and Galadriel were tempted by The Ring. Furthermore, Sauron's desire to control the world was out of a misguided desire to bring order to it. He wasn't simply evil for the sake of evil.
In Mordor when Frodo is captured by Orcs, the orcs talk about looking forward to the end of the war. They talk about finding new homes.
There are shades of gray in Lord of the Rings, even if the overall war is between cosmic "black and white".
Agree. Our friend here pointed out something obvious to anybody with two ears and then completely missed the entire point of another far superior series. Not to say he isn't a fantastic author but he's not a legend.
As far as human information can tell cosmic good and cosmic evil aren't a thing, they're not real. These are the plots of children's stories, so Martin's criticism stands. Martin isn't glossing over anything that matters because at the end of the day "Good vs evil" is the entire plot, regardless of how that concept was later expanded upon outside of the series itself.
@@culturalliberator9425Tolkien is only a legend because he wrote his books a thousands years ago. As time goes on people will recognize more and more how little his books have going on in them, regardless of how much work he put into them. They're impressive, they're not legendary.
@@NottherealLucifer You should look into the thematic undertones of LOTRs. I would agree the world building leaves a lot to be desired but the fundamental aspects of humanity, temptation, and God are all extremely powerful and well placed in the series. Something that is entirely absent if many other series even that of our good friend here, though not to say such things as temptation do not exist in his series as well but they leave something lacking in substance and the powerful subtly of a Legend. Even if I have a wide rang of things to beat Tolkien over with I would still confess that the power of his stories are Legendary.
As you said yourself, he was the first. How original would these other fantasy authors be if not for him? Not very I would suspect, he created the fantasy worlds as we know them even if his direct one to ones are gone. He is a Legend even if his stories can be picked apart, you will never get past the solid core of his stories and their impact.
"Ok, so here's how you do it: first have your character sleep with her brother, then you kill all her incest children, and then you kill her. Now that's how you write a complex character." - George R. R. Martin
Tommen and Myrcella won't die
@@IchibanOjousama They do have to die tho, at least Tommen, no king can live long when all kings seem to be dying like ants.
I’m most looking forward to seeing Sansa’s dark side
It ain't comin
Same. Assuming the Ramsay storyline was ripped from George's plan with Harry the Heir, she will finally get the character development she needs. She's still sold on the songs, the handsome knights and chivalrous do-gooders, of which we have seen few (Quick shout out to See Garlan "The Gallant" Tyrell, one of only a handful of characters who fit Sansa's ideal lol). After Harry the heir brutalises her, she'll finally get the character development of seeing the good in men beyond looks, leading to her *choosing* to be with Tyrion or Sandor, in the end.
Brynden Rivers' Sunset Sea Tyrion did some awful things to her, lets not forget that
@@HebrewsElevenTwentyFive i know this is kinda old, but sandor is dead right? I mean the whole rorge thing
@@franck5599 No one said a woman must go through that in order to develop. Stop adding your political slant to a place it isn't needed. I never made a statement on women. I made a statement on Sansa.
Great channel
Lmao how to follow up on response like that one.. better off to say “next question”
Yeeeeeeah... I don't think there's much grey in Jeoffrey, Euron, The Mountain, any of the Boltons, etc.
Bruh did you just say there isn't any grey in the Hound, as for the other I agree I think we'll find out more about them in the next book and I'll add Cersei to that list she isn't much grey to be fair
@@yousofzaid872 Oops! Sorry. I meant to say The Mountain. Good call. (Fixed it.)
@@stormrhode2330 oh okay, I feel like the mountain is like that because he suffers from severe brain migraines and is completely addicted to milk of the poppy so his is mainly because of drug addiction I'd say, it's not the main reason but it definitely has a part
@@yousofzaid872 That might be. But he's still pretty irredeemably evil.
@@yousofzaid872 cersei is a tragic character
Except for Shereen😭😭
She’s all white and good
idk her face is looking pretty grey
@@sunshineslowking5025 lmao i'm dead
Well, she's not showed enough tho. Jaime was pretty 1D character, who was just asshole, but the moment we got chapters from his POV and seen him developed he turned into very grey and even kinda whitish character. Maybe Shereen is planning to murder everyone, who knows...
@@sunshineslowking5025 great comment
How is Euron a grey character?
off topic but he sounds like peter griffin if he was in his 70s
Lmao
No he just looks like him
Sheesh.
Oh George... You are asking for your Annie Wilkes.... FINISH THAT FUCKING BOOK!!!!
THIS MAN SHOULD MEET JOSS WHEDON THEN PEOPLE MIGHT NOT RUSH OUT ANDS MISS GREAT THETER 'S, GREAT MOVIES COME ON GEORGE R R MARTIN TALENTED .
Take your time when you write. You did yourself a disservice.
@@gothxm that’s not a very nice way to talk to a stroke victim
Lmao