I was scrolling and seen this video ..I have a few issues with 2 different trucks I have yet to address .. I have a good idea on what I'm about to do to them .. so I figured I'd stop in watch your video and get a free education. I didn't learn much that I didn't know ..kinda like a refresher course for me .. but at the end where you said you didn't know it all and you just want to help ppl that hit home and I subscribed .. lots of times I'll tell young ppl what I've done and what works for me and my hot rod. I get their wheels turning and stand back and see what they come. Up with and sit back and be completely supportive of their ideas ... So what you said hit home ..thanks for the free education Kevin !!!
Great to have you at the channel! I appreciate you subscribing, Glenn! That is my goal is to get others thinking so they feel comfortable approaching their race car. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
I see we are kindred spirits ..I can't wait til I get off work go to the garage work a while while watching the rest of your videos .. gonna be good times !!!
Thanks so much, Ed! I struggle with being concise and brief as I keep thinking of other ways to explain it. It is difficult doing video because I cannot see facial expressions or any body language like I do when I teach in a crowd or in a classroom setting. So my mind is racing at how to explain it differently. LOL.. Thanks for commenting, it means a bunch to me!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
I've been buildings and setting up chassis since 1978 and I learn something on every one of your vidios or at least learn a new approach. Thank You Kevin.
Kevin I like the channel love the information you’re never too old to learn. You’re getting people to talk about their set ups and think about what they can do to improve. Also giving motivation to get out there in the garage!
Good video and good explanation! Wish I had known all this about 50 years ago! ;) At 73, my current build is probably my last build, so I want to do it right! ;)
Hey Kevin this vid was great and so informative. I really like the idea of mocking up so that you have a good idea of what you have on the track. I also like the comments and your responses. Thanks appreciate you time.
I'm glad you added the part about getting the weight on the wheels, cause some of us have regular lifts that let the wheels hang. Looks like this is where a 4 post drive on lift would be great!
You got a sub from me. We don't know it all but we keep trying to learn together. People like you inspire me to get out in the garage and make progress. Thank you!
Thank you do much fir these leaf spring videos like sell your videos they are very well done I feel even someone that had never worked on s chassis understands very well done. I feel I have a decent handle on my low 11 second 68 camaro street car but I'm learning how to improve with simple suspension tuning thanks
Please see the video link below for a much clearer demonstration of pinion angle and over all driveshaft angles and phasing. When I use the term "in-line" I am referring to the pinion and the transmission/engine being at the same working angles under load going down the track. With a bunch of rear separation, rear chassis lifting and rear end going down and the front end rise from the torque, the pinion and transmission are not level nor on the same plane, so having them "in line" is physically impossible. Under load, if the transmission/engine angle is 1 degree down, then the pinion needs to be 1 degree up so the two are parallel to each other. Huge shoutout to @Fitzee's Fabrications for making this more simple to understand in a comment. The video below is such a clear video of all this and why it is so important!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!! ua-cam.com/video/Idk3BVDVHq4/v-deo.html Updated Spicer video: ua-cam.com/video/jaaTyL099RA/v-deo.html KevinWilsonSBC
This is great info. I wish i had a race car. Just trying to find out What is acceptable or target for lifted daily truck. Although it will soon have more power than I can safely take advantage of on the street.
Any time were talking angle, the angle has to be relative to two things. Pinion relative to the driveshaft is a universal joints operating angle not pinion angle (working angle is ok to use also I guess). Pinion angle is relative to the TRANSMISSION! This is an important distinction because its a measure how the two universal joints are working together. I don't really car what you call it, but the whole reason for checking the pinion relative to the trans is that driveshaft vibration occurs when the front and rear universal joints operating angles are not nearly equal/opposite. Individual operating angles are a separate deal that should also be individually checked but only to keep within the manufacturers recommendation. Operating angles are more of an issue on lifted trucks or sometimes with very short driveshafts. Thanks for the great channel!
Absolutely!!! This is why I am stressing so much for people to please watch this video: ua-cam.com/video/jaaTyL099RA/v-deo.html as it shows so much better than I can explain. LOL... Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
The other way I look at it is from the perspective that we are setting this specifically to account for pinion rise under power to get both universal joint operating angles equal under power. If you set the pinion to driveshaft angle to an ideal value and then make a ride height change, the ideal pinion/driveshaft angle will now be different... but ride height does not impact the ideal pinion/trans output shaft angle. Its also super easy to check, i use a cube style angle finder as opposed to a torpedo style. Just zero it on any engine/trans vertical/horizontal machined surface, then check the pinion and that's your angle. Anyway, no mal intent here, just continuing a good topic. Thanks for what you do for the community!
The chalkboard discussion is, but if your angles are different on the engine/trans, then you need to end up with parallel angles under load like the Spicer video shows in the description and pinned comment from me. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Kevin my leaf springs are on top the rearend I’m running floaters an ladder bar setup. I’m running a big tire “44” tall tire. I’m trying to get my pinion angle and I’m struggling with this.
Thanks so much for commenting, tojan111! I do use a digital angle finder to help me find th engine/trans angle and then the pinion angle. amzn.to/3uk4l6T Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Hey Kevin great videos definitely the best and well explained videos on the net. What are the chances you could do a short video explaining how to overcome rear separation on a turbo car building boost on the footbrake prior to launching.
Anytime you begin to load the converter the energy has to go through the ring and pinion before the brakes hold the car... that low speed loading is going to start the chassis separation... not sure I have a magic answer on that one... Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
My pleasure! Make sure you check the pinion angle and phase video in the description. That video from Spicer is worth more than any of my words. Thanks for commenting!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Waiting for my plasma table to arrive. Plan to build some OR-trac bars, lol. When the boost comes in my ranger has an earthquake. Hopefully I can cure it.
Well that will definitely need some pinion angle adjustment so definitely take some time to watch this from spicer: ua-cam.com/video/jaaTyL099RA/v-deo.html Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
RIGHT! Overall combined 2 angles added together. Lots of free advice makes it more confusing. I have COILS and I’ve been told LEAF SPRINGS are a different situation. Couple that with the SECONDARY center joint to protect from too much angle or vibration Lots of BAD advice out here too
With leafs there is a change in pinion angle on the launch. You want 4 to 5 total pinion angle so if your driveshaft is angle down 3 degrees the max rearend pinion angle down is 2 degrees? Am I understanding this right? So on the launch you should have 0 degrees total pinion angle with the rotation of the rearend. This right?
The numbers in the video were purely arbitrary numbers to demonstrate the math of opposing or like angles. The goal is on the launch and through the run, you want the pinion under load and after it rotates to be at the same angle as the trans/crankshaft angle. Leaf spring strength and whether or not you have caltracs, or smith assassin bars, or traction bars or nothing and/or stock leaf springs all come into factor. I cannot say 0 degrees pinion angle is right because I don't what your trans/engine angle is set at in your chassis, but I can say that you want the pinion in line with the trans/engine angle so you have a scenario explained in this video which is a great visual of what I am trying to say: ua-cam.com/video/Idk3BVDVHq4/v-deo.html That video is amazing at showing what wrong angles and improper phasing creates in the drivetrain and how it can actual rob you of proper speeds being applied at the ring and pinion. Hope this helps. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
@@KevinWilsonSBC I finds this hard to understand with a leaf spring setup. Your saying your pinion, driveshaft and crank centerline needs to be in line? If you have separation in the back of a leaf spring car the driveshaft angle to crank centerline is going get greater. My understanding is you want your pinion angle and your transmission angle parallel to each other under load. So if your transmission is down 2 degrees you want your pinion up 2 degrees under load. This way the driveshaft don't bind. This is how I been building stuff all these years. Lol. The way you explained it it sound like the way you set up a 4 link car. I have a thirst for learning this stuff so as you know I been asking alot of qustions. Thanks for all the quick response. Go fast, straight and safe and keep teaching
@@fitzeesfabrications The term 'in line" is a bad term. With all the separation there is no way for them to be "in line" as you mention. When I say in line I am referring to the same working angles. See this video, it is in the description and in my pinned comment, ua-cam.com/video/Idk3BVDVHq4/v-deo.html and this shows the loss of rotational efficiency by having the wrong angles and phasing on the driveshaft. I apologize my wording is confusing and I will correct it. We are saying the same thing, but I failed to make it clear. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
@@KevinWilsonSBC that's that Southern drall of yours lol. Us Canucks have a hard time figure that stuff out. Thanks agian for all your help. Keep those videos coming
if my driveline and pinion angles are set up properly but i cut my pinion bump stop to get more travel, is it possible to get vibration at a certain gear because the diff is going up too much and off setting the pinion?
I try to stay as close to zero as possible. The angle with the most stress should be as close to center as possible. On independent rear suspensions, its rare to break u joints on the main drive shaft. While the shorter side joints fail considerably more with angle. The longer the drive shaft , the less stress increases with angle. Location of axle on springs also plays a big effect. No matter the situation or vehicle. Zero is always the best angle for the shock of the launch. Thanks for the videos. Brings more instruction to those who need to know.
Hello there sir kevin. I'm scrolling on videos and I came to see yours.. all I can say is you are doing a great and helpfull job. I'm not a mechanic or do have a shop rather I'm DIY on my truck. I installed a separate transfer case on my truck and many problem came out. I have done many adjustments on the mounting of the transfer case but still I'm not getting what is the best position of the transfer case. Now I have a question sir kevin... is it good to use U joints only with out driveshaft and yoke to connect the transmission going to the separate transfer case? Thank you and I appreciate any effort you do..
I have a new driveline angle video coming this week. Stay tuned for sure on that one. At a high level each car is unique and the actual pinion angle at rest depends on the engine/trans centerline angle and some other factors that help determine the actual pinion angle. More to come on all of this. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Hi Kevin, I am about to mount my spring pads onto a FAB 9 rear housing. I will be using Calvert bars also. What degree do I put the axle pads on the housing? + or - 3 degrees ? in relationship to the front of the housing. I enjoy your videos. Thank You Jim Hughes.
You really need to mock it up and have a good measurement of your engine/trans angle so you can get the right static offset on the rear. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
I always tell people to quit worrying about the driveshaft, pretend it's NOT even there when calculating pinion angle. Simply measure the pinion itself and the Engine/Trans angle. Engine/Trans easiest place to measure is typically the harmonic balancer or balancer pulley. Typical stock style chassis the Eng/Trans will be angled down where a tube chassis style setup it will be angled up a couple degrees. Adjust pinion Up or Down accordingly to get the desired angle.
What about if you already have over 6deg down angle at the engine-trans centerline? Only thing I can do is squeeze 2deg out by shimming the trans mount. but that would still equal the rear pinion facing 4-6deg upwards under load. For some reason I have it stuck in my head the rear pinion needs to point down no matter what so it levels out under load going down the track.
Kevin, i have aboit 5-degrees of actual pinion angle change thru the arc of travel. If i make it perfect at full extension, when i lift it will be pretty far off on decel. Guessimg splitting the difference is all i can do.. thoughts?
People are asking about an "ideal" pinion angle. The comment about "phasing" is hunting the right trail. A u-joint that couples two parallel axis will spin at a steady rotational speed. At an angle, the output spins faster-slower-faster-slower at the same AVERAGE speed. The goal is to minimize the angle and to negate or match what's happening through the joints from transmission to rear end. If they are phased and net a parallel path, oscillation is eliminated or minimized, which keeps the chassis smooth and happy under power. This concern is the same for both straight line and roundy- round cars!
I have a 69 Dart, formerly a drag car. My center section is 5 degrees down like your illustration with super stock springs. How should I have this setup for normal driving?
Slapper bars do work when properly set up with the rest of the suspension. They do a good job of controlling spring wrap vs not having anything at all. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Now would this be the same as if on a truck with leaf springs? And instead of the dif pointing down it’s pointing up can I still use this to fix my problem?
Interesting. I was told to first make sure trans and rear end are parallel to one another. Then make sure the shaft is somewhere in between these. And each of the trans and rear end should be no more than 3 degrees. Now why would several people mention this to me if they are wrong and you are right? My rearend is pointed upward 3 degrees. My trans is pointed downward 3 degrees and my shaft is about in between somewhere, ,going doward to rear end at about 1.5 degrees. So shaft is 1.5- and rear end is 3 positive degrees. My working pinion is +1.5 . Is that right or wrong?
I did a horrible job explaining this. Checkout my pinned comment for more clarification and a great Spicer video that does a much better job on explaining u-joint angles. BUT, if this is a full time drag car, I would not set the static pinion 3 degrees up. I would start it down some so under full throttle and on the hit, you are at 3 degrees to have the parallel axis you are talking about. Lastly, using the driveshaft is 1 method, but the best is covered in the description of my video and in my pinned comment for this video. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
So, if my tranny points down 6 degrees, and my rear end points down 1 degree.... what would you recommend at that point? I can't move my engine at this point in time, but I will this next winter.
Good question! I would confirm the engine angle at the balancer. if still 6 degrees down then you have to bring the rear up. I would definitely bring the motor/trans rotation up. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
@@KevinWilsonSBC thats what i had planned on doing. Makes me feel much better when an expert can re assure me. Thanks again for the fast reply and for all of the great videos
This is quite different from what calvert suggests, "We suggest a pinion angle to be between 2-4 degrees negative, measuring off the transmission yoke and pinion yoke."
Yes. In this video I am talking about 4 degrees to start. Every car is different, especially with Caltracs and split mono leafs. This video is high level and mainly focused on what to look for and how to change it. I also stress how the owner needs to understand the movements of the rear and front of their car. Regardless, thanks for commenting!! I don’t think me and Calvert are very different at all. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
@@KevinWilsonSBC I think what you're saying in this video applies more to a double cardan driveshaft with a CV joint at the trans. When you have 2 U joints their angles need to cancel each other out in order to not vibrate. IE if the trans is 3" higher than the pinion but the pinion and the trans are both level you won't introduce any harmonics. However if your pinion is inline with the driveshaft and the front u joint is down "x" degrees you'll introduce bad harmonics to the system. I agree though that the straighter that you can get your driveline the stronger it will be. ua-cam.com/video/Idk3BVDVHq4/v-deo.html
Absolutely! start with my IRS video ua-cam.com/video/-iD5rg9YUL4/v-deo.html and if you still need more help reachout via my website services page at samsonperformance.com/services.html and we can go from there! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Do you know the angle of the trans yoke or engine balancer? If I know that I can better help with a starting point. Shoot me some more info and I can help more. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
@@billmorton6977 Once the motor is bolted up front and rear, then you can measure the midplate angle as the rear of the block is a machined surface. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Looks like this is assuming you have the engine/trans at zero degrees. Im trying to figure this all out so i can weld in my new axle perches. unfortunately my trucks engine/trans angle is pointed down 6.5deg. i can't lower the engine mounts and lifting the trans only gets me to around 4.5deg down. Currently at 6.5deg trans down, 1.5deg driveshaft down, and holding axle in place at 4deg pinion facing the ground based on knowing the axle would wrap up but the info in this vid would suggest i should have my axle pointed up slightly as it would wrap upward to establish the opposite 6.5deg angle under load. I see Silverados drag racing all the time on youtube and i doubt hardly any of them have modified the engine/trans angle from this stock 6.5deg down angle.
See my Pinned comment on this video. The spicer video link in my comment is the key. I primarily deal with full drag race chassis setups. With how much angle you are running you will need to follow that video to keep the ujoints set and not have any binding. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
So I drive a 2013 Ford F-150 SuperCrew two-wheel drive with a two-piece driveshaft I have a 6-in lift with the 5-inch block in the rear truck sits higher about 1 in I ordered pro Comp 4-in block but the blocks came straight cut no taper I called pro Comp and they told me that my truck does not need taper blocks because the taper come from the leaf springs or something like that can anybody tell me if this is true or not
Carburetor top should be level....This is determined by motor mount and transmission mount....Measure transmission angle by measuring the crankshaft pulley....Measure the pinion angle at the rearend....Readjust rear pinion angle to opposite of the trans. Shaft angle to cancel out vibration....
Engine/Trans in at 3deg down....pinion up from rear to front 1/2deg = 2 1/2 deg (caltrac mono leafs) Too much pinion angle just eats up u joints and HP.
Thanks, JC, for leaving a comment! Agreed, but each car needs to be confirmed with its settings for that setup. I do agree with your comment, just want others to know that while 1/2 degree up on your pinion may not be the right setting for their pinion. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
@@KevinWilsonSBC Hi Kevin...My point was that the drive shaft angle has nothing to do with setting up pinion angle. The engine/trans should be parallel to the pinion under load with the operating u joint angles being the same but one neg and one pos. So depending on your suspension of choice adding + - pinion angle should be calculated off the angle the engine is in the chassis. Its way easier to explain. I also race a 66 coronet.
Absolutely... we have ran split mono leafs with 4 link and ladder bars with floaters and sliders... they work very well. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
@@Watchout1010 O yes... absolutely love them.. not sure if you are being serious or poking at me, but either way have a good one! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
@@KevinWilsonSBC Thanks Kev! I have a DANA 60 with leafs , my trans is 1.5 down (towards the rear end) driveshaft is 2.3 down (towards the rearend) and the pinion is 2.0 down(towards the FRONT) My understanding is that you can't have the pinion angle line and the trans angle line crossing! So do I shim the pinion UP? and how much? I think its close but you mentioned that a leafspring rear end twist up a lot more than a 4 link / coil over! What do you recommend? Thanks in advance!
At a high level and speaking generically with leaf springs, I generally see around 3 - 5 degrees of change on the pinion at the hit and during the run. There are factors that influence this such as caltracs, mono leafs, drop sliders, etc... If this is a drag only and not street driven, then I would not change it until you test it. If street driven, then it is a compromise and you may want to ship the pinion up 1 degree to keep the ujoints happier. Ideally, you want the engine/trans centerline and pinion centerline parallel under full load. That puts you at 3.5 degrees of pinion rotation to have this parallel scenario which is pretty good until you can test and verify. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
So.... what ate the bots your touch to achieve this adjustment... all this boring high-school shop class if not helping anyone actually fix a bad adjustment...
Appreciate u staying with us leaf spring guys Kevin, love to have coils n 4 l8nk some day
I was scrolling and seen this video ..I have a few issues with 2 different trucks I have yet to address .. I have a good idea on what I'm about to do to them .. so I figured I'd stop in watch your video and get a free education. I didn't learn much that I didn't know ..kinda like a refresher course for me .. but at the end where you said you didn't know it all and you just want to help ppl that hit home and I subscribed .. lots of times I'll tell young ppl what I've done and what works for me and my hot rod. I get their wheels turning and stand back and see what they come. Up with and sit back and be completely supportive of their ideas ... So what you said hit home ..thanks for the free education Kevin !!!
Great to have you at the channel! I appreciate you subscribing, Glenn! That is my goal is to get others thinking so they feel comfortable approaching their race car. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
I see we are kindred spirits ..I can't wait til I get off work go to the garage work a while while watching the rest of your videos .. gonna be good times !!!
I love how you go to so much time to explain what you're teaching and how easy it is to follow you
Thanks so much, Ed! I struggle with being concise and brief as I keep thinking of other ways to explain it. It is difficult doing video because I cannot see facial expressions or any body language like I do when I teach in a crowd or in a classroom setting. So my mind is racing at how to explain it differently. LOL.. Thanks for commenting, it means a bunch to me!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Finally seen the best video that I've seen on here Four this problem I have Awesome 2 thumbs up sir
I've been buildings and setting up chassis since 1978 and I learn something on every one of your vidios or at least learn a new approach. Thank You Kevin.
Kevin, don’t sell yourself short you are a professional and we really appreciate your videos. Keep up the good work.
Love leaf springs! Love the old school hot rod look, hands down.
Kevin I like the channel love the information you’re never too old to learn. You’re getting people to talk about their set ups and think about what they can do to improve. Also giving motivation to get out there in the garage!
Thanks so much, Victor! Appreciate your support of my channel and for dropping this comment! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Good video and good explanation! Wish I had known all this about 50 years ago! ;) At 73, my current build is probably my last build, so I want to do it right! ;)
First explanation I've seen on working angle. You do such a great job explaining and teaching. Thanks again Kevin!
Awesome, thank you! I am humbled by your comments! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Hey Kevin this vid was great and so informative. I really like the idea of mocking up so that you have a good idea of what you have on the track. I also like the comments and your responses. Thanks appreciate you time.
Awesome, thank you! Appreciate you leaving a comment! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
I've been searching for a discussion on pinion angle and breaking it down WITH the working pinion angle really helped me! Thank you Kevin
Glad it helped! Thanks for leaving a comment!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
I'm glad you added the part about getting the weight on the wheels, cause some of us have regular lifts that let the wheels hang. Looks like this is where a 4 post drive on lift would be great!
You got a sub from me. We don't know it all but we keep trying to learn together. People like you inspire me to get out in the garage and make progress. Thank you!
Thanks for the sub! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Really informative and well said vid n helps me with my Dart . Gonna watch all your leaf spring car vids now .
Tons of great info on here, thanks for the tech!
You bet! Thanks for dropping a comment!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Great information and well done. I’m in the process of trying to figure out my setup it’s a 05 Colorado 6.0l turbo 4x4. This should help
Thanks so much, and I am confident this will help you. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Thank you do much fir these leaf spring videos like sell your videos they are very well done I feel even someone that had never worked on s chassis understands very well done. I feel I have a decent handle on my low 11 second 68 camaro street car but I'm learning how to improve with simple suspension tuning thanks
You are welcome, ChevyMustang1!! Appreciate you taking the time to write your comment!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Please see the video link below for a much clearer demonstration of pinion angle and over all driveshaft angles and phasing. When I use the term "in-line" I am referring to the pinion and the transmission/engine being at the same working angles under load going down the track. With a bunch of rear separation, rear chassis lifting and rear end going down and the front end rise from the torque, the pinion and transmission are not level nor on the same plane, so having them "in line" is physically impossible. Under load, if the transmission/engine angle is 1 degree down, then the pinion needs to be 1 degree up so the two are parallel to each other.
Huge shoutout to @Fitzee's Fabrications for making this more simple to understand in a comment. The video below is such a clear video of all this and why it is so important!!
Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
ua-cam.com/video/Idk3BVDVHq4/v-deo.html
Updated Spicer video: ua-cam.com/video/jaaTyL099RA/v-deo.html
KevinWilsonSBC
Great videos and information. I appreciate your videos very much. Thank you.
Glad you like them! Thanks for commenting! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
This is great info. I wish i had a race car. Just trying to find out What is acceptable or target for lifted daily truck. Although it will soon have more power than I can safely take advantage of on the street.
Thanks for making these videos
Absolutely!! You are welcome! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Any time were talking angle, the angle has to be relative to two things. Pinion relative to the driveshaft is a universal joints operating angle not pinion angle (working angle is ok to use also I guess). Pinion angle is relative to the TRANSMISSION! This is an important distinction because its a measure how the two universal joints are working together. I don't really car what you call it, but the whole reason for checking the pinion relative to the trans is that driveshaft vibration occurs when the front and rear universal joints operating angles are not nearly equal/opposite. Individual operating angles are a separate deal that should also be individually checked but only to keep within the manufacturers recommendation. Operating angles are more of an issue on lifted trucks or sometimes with very short driveshafts. Thanks for the great channel!
Absolutely!!! This is why I am stressing so much for people to please watch this video: ua-cam.com/video/jaaTyL099RA/v-deo.html as it shows so much better than I can explain. LOL... Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
The other way I look at it is from the perspective that we are setting this specifically to account for pinion rise under power to get both universal joint operating angles equal under power. If you set the pinion to driveshaft angle to an ideal value and then make a ride height change, the ideal pinion/driveshaft angle will now be different... but ride height does not impact the ideal pinion/trans output shaft angle. Its also super easy to check, i use a cube style angle finder as opposed to a torpedo style. Just zero it on any engine/trans vertical/horizontal machined surface, then check the pinion and that's your angle. Anyway, no mal intent here, just continuing a good topic. Thanks for what you do for the community!
😃Perfect timing for my work in progress. Thanks!
Perfect! Thanks for commenting! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Best explanation I've seen. Thanks
Thanks Kevin. To be clear all of this is based on a zero degree transmission angle?
Thanks again
Donnie
The chalkboard discussion is, but if your angles are different on the engine/trans, then you need to end up with parallel angles under load like the Spicer video shows in the description and pinned comment from me. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Awesome explanations put out there Kevin. I have questions now for you. Thanks, Mrgoodwrench
Don't have leaf springs on my race car but watched the video anyway!
Thanks for watching and supporting the channel! Appreciate you! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Kevin my leaf springs are on top the rearend I’m running floaters an ladder bar setup. I’m running a big tire “44” tall tire. I’m trying to get my pinion angle and I’m struggling with this.
Great videos, what are you using to measure 5 Degrees? Is there a digital gauge for this? Thanks for your time...
Thanks so much for commenting, tojan111! I do use a digital angle finder to help me find th engine/trans angle and then the pinion angle. amzn.to/3uk4l6T
Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
i have setup several fast leaf spring cars , great info on this channel ,keep up the good work kevin
Hey Kevin great videos definitely the best and well explained videos on the net. What are the chances you could do a short video explaining how to overcome rear separation on a turbo car building boost on the footbrake prior to launching.
Anytime you begin to load the converter the energy has to go through the ring and pinion before the brakes hold the car... that low speed loading is going to start the chassis separation... not sure I have a magic answer on that one... Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Great information!
Thanks, Chris! Appreciate you leaving comments! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Thank you Kevin.
Great video! Thank you for sharing your knowledge 🤘
My pleasure! Make sure you check the pinion angle and phase video in the description. That video from Spicer is worth more than any of my words. Thanks for commenting!!
Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Waiting for my plasma table to arrive. Plan to build some OR-trac bars, lol. When the boost comes in my ranger has an earthquake. Hopefully I can cure it.
Thanks for commenting and good luck with the Ranger!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Good video what about a 6 inch lifted f150 2015
Well that will definitely need some pinion angle adjustment so definitely take some time to watch this from spicer: ua-cam.com/video/jaaTyL099RA/v-deo.html
Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
ALSO LIKE YOU SAID SO MANY PEOPLE DONT UNDERSTAND TOTAL WORKING ANGLE, THEY ONLY THINK ABOUT PINION ANGLE SET UP.
Good point!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
RIGHT! Overall combined 2 angles added together.
Lots of free advice makes it more confusing.
I have COILS and I’ve been told LEAF SPRINGS are a different situation.
Couple that with the SECONDARY center joint to protect from too much angle or vibration
Lots of BAD advice out here too
With leafs there is a change in pinion angle on the launch. You want 4 to 5 total pinion angle so if your driveshaft is angle down 3 degrees the max rearend pinion angle down is 2 degrees? Am I understanding this right? So on the launch you should have 0 degrees total pinion angle with the rotation of the rearend. This right?
The numbers in the video were purely arbitrary numbers to demonstrate the math of opposing or like angles. The goal is on the launch and through the run, you want the pinion under load and after it rotates to be at the same angle as the trans/crankshaft angle. Leaf spring strength and whether or not you have caltracs, or smith assassin bars, or traction bars or nothing and/or stock leaf springs all come into factor.
I cannot say 0 degrees pinion angle is right because I don't what your trans/engine angle is set at in your chassis, but I can say that you want the pinion in line with the trans/engine angle so you have a scenario explained in this video which is a great visual of what I am trying to say: ua-cam.com/video/Idk3BVDVHq4/v-deo.html That video is amazing at showing what wrong angles and improper phasing creates in the drivetrain and how it can actual rob you of proper speeds being applied at the ring and pinion. Hope this helps.
Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
@@KevinWilsonSBC I finds this hard to understand with a leaf spring setup. Your saying your pinion, driveshaft and crank centerline needs to be in line? If you have separation in the back of a leaf spring car the driveshaft angle to crank centerline is going get greater. My understanding is you want your pinion angle and your transmission angle parallel to each other under load. So if your transmission is down 2 degrees you want your pinion up 2 degrees under load. This way the driveshaft don't bind. This is how I been building stuff all these years. Lol. The way you explained it it sound like the way you set up a 4 link car. I have a thirst for learning this stuff so as you know I been asking alot of qustions. Thanks for all the quick response. Go fast, straight and safe and keep teaching
@@fitzeesfabrications The term 'in line" is a bad term. With all the separation there is no way for them to be "in line" as you mention. When I say in line I am referring to the same working angles. See this video, it is in the description and in my pinned comment, ua-cam.com/video/Idk3BVDVHq4/v-deo.html
and this shows the loss of rotational efficiency by having the wrong angles and phasing on the driveshaft. I apologize my wording is confusing and I will correct it. We are saying the same thing, but I failed to make it clear. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
@@KevinWilsonSBC that's that Southern drall of yours lol. Us Canucks have a hard time figure that stuff out. Thanks agian for all your help. Keep those videos coming
@@fitzeesfabrications You bet!! LOL! Love your content also! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
When you got the 3 degrees down from drive shaft is that checking actual angle of drive shaft or the ubolt angle at the yoke ?
if my driveline and pinion angles are set up properly but i cut my pinion bump stop to get more travel, is it possible to get vibration at a certain gear because the diff is going up too much and off setting the pinion?
I try to stay as close to zero as possible. The angle with the most stress should be as close to center as possible. On independent rear suspensions, its rare to break u joints on the main drive shaft. While the shorter side joints fail considerably more with angle. The longer the drive shaft , the less stress increases with angle. Location of axle on springs also plays a big effect. No matter the situation or vehicle. Zero is always the best angle for the shock of the launch.
Thanks for the videos. Brings more instruction to those who need to know.
Thanks for commenting. I am shooting for zero during the run which is when we need zero the most. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Great video! Thanks
Do you still recommend 4-4.5 degree for something like a 4.5” lifted jeep XJ?
Excellent video🤝👍👍👍
Thank you 👍 Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Thank you for your time and information
Thanks for sharing you made it easier to understand 😁😁😁
Hello there sir kevin. I'm scrolling on videos and I came to see yours.. all I can say is you are doing a great and helpfull job. I'm not a mechanic or do have a shop rather I'm DIY on my truck. I installed a separate transfer case on my truck and many problem came out. I have done many adjustments on the mounting of the transfer case but still I'm not getting what is the best position of the transfer case. Now I have a question sir kevin... is it good to use U joints only with out driveshaft and yoke to connect the transmission going to the separate transfer case? Thank you and I appreciate any effort you do..
Question, is it true we need a final number of NEG 2~3 degree pinion TO shaft angle, I believe as the window to operate under??
I have a new driveline angle video coming this week. Stay tuned for sure on that one. At a high level each car is unique and the actual pinion angle at rest depends on the engine/trans centerline angle and some other factors that help determine the actual pinion angle. More to come on all of this. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Hi Kevin, I am about to mount my spring pads onto a FAB 9 rear housing. I will be using Calvert bars also. What degree do I put the axle pads on the housing? + or - 3 degrees ? in relationship to the front of the housing. I enjoy your videos. Thank You Jim Hughes.
You really need to mock it up and have a good measurement of your engine/trans angle so you can get the right static offset on the rear. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
I always tell people to quit worrying about the driveshaft, pretend it's NOT even there when calculating pinion angle. Simply measure the pinion itself and the Engine/Trans angle. Engine/Trans easiest place to measure is typically the harmonic balancer or balancer pulley. Typical stock style chassis the Eng/Trans will be angled down where a tube chassis style setup it will be angled up a couple degrees. Adjust pinion Up or Down accordingly to get the desired angle.
Yes!! Thanks Austin for sharing that in the comments! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
What about if you already have over 6deg down angle at the engine-trans centerline? Only thing I can do is squeeze 2deg out by shimming the trans mount. but that would still equal the rear pinion facing 4-6deg upwards under load. For some reason I have it stuck in my head the rear pinion needs to point down no matter what so it levels out under load going down the track.
@@zero2583 only down compared to the engine/trans. To the ground the pinion will be pointing upwards.
What do you do when the shim uses up all the locating pin? Thanks
We make a longer pin... done it many times with grade 8 bolts... Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Kevin, i have aboit 5-degrees of actual pinion angle change thru the arc of travel. If i make it perfect at full extension, when i lift it will be pretty far off on decel. Guessimg splitting the difference is all i can do.. thoughts?
ok i have a 10 sec sonoma im running the two peace drive shaft how would i set that up thanks in advance
Awesome info, keep it coming 👍🏼👍🏼
Amazing, clear and precise video... Thank you my man! Sub'd!
Thank you Thank you
You are very welcome!!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Great stuff thanks
Great info ! 👍👍
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for leaving a comment!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
I want to raise my 71 Chevy blazer 3”. If I add leaf springs to get the raise do I need to do anything with the pinion angle?
People are asking about an "ideal" pinion angle. The comment about "phasing" is hunting the right trail. A u-joint that couples two parallel axis will spin at a steady rotational speed. At an angle, the output spins faster-slower-faster-slower at the same AVERAGE speed. The goal is to minimize the angle and to negate or match what's happening through the joints from transmission to rear end. If they are phased and net a parallel path, oscillation is eliminated or minimized, which keeps the chassis smooth and happy under power. This concern is the same for both straight line and roundy- round cars!
100%.. this is why I included the spicer video in the description and pinned comment. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
So getting an angle off of the balancer isn't mentioned here. Just driveshaft angle?
I have a driveline angle video coming out soon to answer all of these questions. Stay tuned. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Thanks Kevin
I have a 69 Dart, formerly a drag car. My center section is 5 degrees down like your illustration with super stock springs.
How should I have this setup for normal driving?
That completely depends on your motor/trans centerline angle.... Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
if i put a shim on the top do i also need to put one on the bottom as well?
Not sure I am following your question... Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
New subscriber!!!!🔥🔥🔥
How do yo feel about slapper bars
Slapper bars do work when properly set up with the rest of the suspension. They do a good job of controlling spring wrap vs not having anything at all. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
I'm new to this but this helps .thank you Kevin
Now would this be the same as if on a truck with leaf springs? And instead of the dif pointing down it’s pointing up can I still use this to fix my problem?
Bc I did a suspension kit and since then it’s been vibrating a lot when driving and I’ve been told that it could be the angle of my dif
Yes, when you raise or lower a leaf spring vehicle, the pinion angle changes. The shims will correct it.
Interesting. I was told to first make sure trans and rear end are parallel to one another. Then make sure the shaft is somewhere in between these. And each of the trans and rear end should be no more than 3 degrees. Now why would several people mention this to me if they are wrong and you are right? My rearend is pointed upward 3 degrees. My trans is pointed downward 3 degrees and my shaft is about in between somewhere, ,going doward to rear end at about 1.5 degrees. So shaft is 1.5- and rear end is 3 positive degrees. My working pinion is +1.5 . Is that right or wrong?
I did a horrible job explaining this. Checkout my pinned comment for more clarification and a great Spicer video that does a much better job on explaining u-joint angles. BUT, if this is a full time drag car, I would not set the static pinion 3 degrees up. I would start it down some so under full throttle and on the hit, you are at 3 degrees to have the parallel axis you are talking about. Lastly, using the driveshaft is 1 method, but the best is covered in the description of my video and in my pinned comment for this video. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
So, if my tranny points down 6 degrees, and my rear end points down 1 degree.... what would you recommend at that point? I can't move my engine at this point in time, but I will this next winter.
Good question! I would confirm the engine angle at the balancer. if still 6 degrees down then you have to bring the rear up. I would definitely bring the motor/trans rotation up. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
@@KevinWilsonSBC thats what i had planned on doing. Makes me feel much better when an expert can re assure me. Thanks again for the fast reply and for all of the great videos
My engine and trans angle is 2.4 down, drive shaft 1.9 down and rear pinion .5 up. Have a major vibration at 55 and up..what do you suggest
Make pinion 2.4 up.
This is quite different from what calvert suggests, "We suggest a pinion angle to be between 2-4 degrees negative, measuring off the transmission yoke and pinion yoke."
Yes. In this video I am talking about 4 degrees to start. Every car is different, especially with Caltracs and split mono leafs. This video is high level and mainly focused on what to look for and how to change it. I also stress how the owner needs to understand the movements of the rear and front of their car. Regardless, thanks for commenting!! I don’t think me and Calvert are very different at all. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
@@KevinWilsonSBC I think what you're saying in this video applies more to a double cardan driveshaft with a CV joint at the trans. When you have 2 U joints their angles need to cancel each other out in order to not vibrate. IE if the trans is 3" higher than the pinion but the pinion and the trans are both level you won't introduce any harmonics. However if your pinion is inline with the driveshaft and the front u joint is down "x" degrees you'll introduce bad harmonics to the system. I agree though that the straighter that you can get your driveline the stronger it will be. ua-cam.com/video/Idk3BVDVHq4/v-deo.html
Thank you for the videos though, I love the suspension setup info.
KEVIN can you help me with an IRS
Absolutely! start with my IRS video ua-cam.com/video/-iD5rg9YUL4/v-deo.html and if you still need more help reachout via my website services page at samsonperformance.com/services.html and we can go from there! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
What about a two-piece driveshaft for a 92 Chevy Silverado leaf springs
Same principles apply as in this video: ua-cam.com/video/jaaTyL099RA/v-deo.html
Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Is this setup for a street car or a drag car?
I focus primarily on full drag cars... Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Ty for sharing your knowledge
You are welcome! Thanks for commenting! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Is there a magical ( ish ) pinion angle to shoot for first
Do you know the angle of the trans yoke or engine balancer? If I know that I can better help with a starting point. Shoot me some more info and I can help more. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
@@KevinWilsonSBC absolutely ! The motor and trans is out and I'm converting over to motor plate and mid plate
@@KevinWilsonSBC could i get that angle off of the motor plates???
@@billmorton6977 Once the motor is bolted up front and rear, then you can measure the midplate angle as the rear of the block is a machined surface. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
@@KevinWilsonSBC ok cool thanks man
Awesome
Looks like this is assuming you have the engine/trans at zero degrees. Im trying to figure this all out so i can weld in my new axle perches. unfortunately my trucks engine/trans angle is pointed down 6.5deg. i can't lower the engine mounts and lifting the trans only gets me to around 4.5deg down. Currently at 6.5deg trans down, 1.5deg driveshaft down, and holding axle in place at 4deg pinion facing the ground based on knowing the axle would wrap up but the info in this vid would suggest i should have my axle pointed up slightly as it would wrap upward to establish the opposite 6.5deg angle under load. I see Silverados drag racing all the time on youtube and i doubt hardly any of them have modified the engine/trans angle from this stock 6.5deg down angle.
See my Pinned comment on this video. The spicer video link in my comment is the key. I primarily deal with full drag race chassis setups. With how much angle you are running you will need to follow that video to keep the ujoints set and not have any binding. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
So I drive a 2013 Ford F-150 SuperCrew two-wheel drive with a two-piece driveshaft I have a 6-in lift with the 5-inch block in the rear truck sits higher about 1 in I ordered pro Comp 4-in block but the blocks came straight cut no taper I called pro Comp and they told me that my truck does not need taper blocks because the taper come from the leaf springs or something like that can anybody tell me if this is true or not
Carburetor top should be level....This is determined by motor mount and transmission mount....Measure transmission angle by measuring the crankshaft pulley....Measure the pinion angle at the rearend....Readjust rear pinion angle to opposite of the trans. Shaft angle to cancel out vibration....
leaf spring cars to the front!!
Wha do you want your angle to be at tho ?
My truck has 3° in in the motor 3° in the transmission and 9° in the differential the truck is a 2 Piece Driveshaft
👍👍👍
Engine/Trans in at 3deg down....pinion up from rear to front 1/2deg = 2 1/2 deg (caltrac mono leafs) Too much pinion angle just eats up u joints and HP.
Thanks, JC, for leaving a comment! Agreed, but each car needs to be confirmed with its settings for that setup. I do agree with your comment, just want others to know that while 1/2 degree up on your pinion may not be the right setting for their pinion. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
@@KevinWilsonSBC Hi Kevin...My point was that the drive shaft angle has nothing to do with setting up pinion angle. The engine/trans should be parallel to the pinion under load with the operating u joint angles being the same but one neg and one pos. So depending on your suspension of choice adding + - pinion angle should be calculated off the angle the engine is in the chassis. Its way easier to explain. I also race a 66 coronet.
Leaf springs with a 4 link-coil overs?
Absolutely... we have ran split mono leafs with 4 link and ladder bars with floaters and sliders... they work very well. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
@@KevinWilsonSBC ever heard of cal tracks?
@@Watchout1010 O yes... absolutely love them.. not sure if you are being serious or poking at me, but either way have a good one! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
SO PRECISE, I CAN TELL YOU KNOW YOUR CHIT. NO HRSITATION IN YOUR PRESENTATION. THX
Thanks so much! Appreciate you!! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
No bodies doing improving cornering with leaf spring videos. It's all straight line
Sorry. I am a drag racer so if I am “cornering” I am in big trouble. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
remove and replace your spring perches.
You were doing good and then you went off blah blah blah and didn't finish the example you were using!!!
Sorry man. I do get on tangents every now and then. Let me know if I need to answer anything specific you were needing. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
@@KevinWilsonSBC Thanks Kev! I have a DANA 60 with leafs , my trans is 1.5 down (towards the rear end) driveshaft is 2.3 down (towards the rearend) and the pinion is 2.0 down(towards the FRONT) My understanding is that you can't have the pinion angle line and the trans angle line crossing! So do I shim the pinion UP? and how much? I think its close but you mentioned that a leafspring rear end twist up a lot more than a 4 link / coil over! What do you recommend? Thanks in advance!
At a high level and speaking generically with leaf springs, I generally see around 3 - 5 degrees of change on the pinion at the hit and during the run. There are factors that influence this such as caltracs, mono leafs, drop sliders, etc... If this is a drag only and not street driven, then I would not change it until you test it. If street driven, then it is a compromise and you may want to ship the pinion up 1 degree to keep the ujoints happier. Ideally, you want the engine/trans centerline and pinion centerline parallel under full load. That puts you at 3.5 degrees of pinion rotation to have this parallel scenario which is pretty good until you can test and verify. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
Why don't you include Trans angle ¿¿¿ you calculate driveline based on the three angles. what a waste!
So.... what ate the bots your touch to achieve this adjustment... all this boring high-school shop class if not helping anyone actually fix a bad adjustment...
Thanks for sharing the knowledge...