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Toyota's New CVT Has A Launch Gear
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- Опубліковано 12 сер 2024
- Toyota's Direct Shift-CVT Has A First Gear For Starting Off
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People are often underwhelmed with the driving experience of a CVT, and initially, many CVTs were underwhelming. Toyota is changing that, with numerous improvements to their CVT to make shifts quicker, more precise, and more engaging to drive. And it's no longer just using a belt for accelerating. Starting from a stop, the CVT switches over to a direct gear drive, much like starting in first gear in a manual transmission. As the vehicle speed increases, the first gear is dropped and it switches over to belt drive, letting the CVT handle the higher speeds.
The changes to their new continuously variable transmission result in better launch acceleration, faster shift speeds, and a greater transmission efficiency at all vehicle speeds. How is this possible? Check out the video for full details.
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i am 71 yrs old and have been in the automotive/heavy equipment industries most of my life. i look forward to your videos they have been and continue to be a learning experience for me . you do a wonderful job of translating geek to gearhead. thank you
So happy to hear it, thanks for watching!
Yeah if I've had trainers like this I would have been a better engineer
Yep hes the only reason i now understand the difference between torque and horsepower ....
This channel is youtube gold, he deserves every sub he gets.
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I wish they would allow you to switch into a “CVT mode” so that you could get the maximum horsepower with no shifts, or the maximum efficiency with no shifts, depending on the throttle position. And it could also have a “regular” mode where it pretends to be a regular automatic. Then those of us who know it’s more efficient and better-accelerating can choose CVT mode, but the ignorant masses can have their automatic “feel.” It can’t be more than a few lines of code to change. Easy.
LMacNeill Sport mode sometimes comes relatively close to this.
After driving a CVT for awhile, I feel the CVT consistent RPM acceleration is somehow more exciting and speedy. Agree with you.
What you're describing (dual mode CVT) was (still is??) available.I read about it but I can't remember what car it was.
Yep MacNeill, I really think engineer's should consider your thoughts.. Would love that, and the minority of people who doesn't understand the benefits of cvt and Rpm ranges can have their way too with the automatic feel..
I agree. It reminds me of the engineers in the 50s 60s and 70s who thought people wanted mushy ride and imprecise steering.
What's interesting is people don't like CVTs because they like shift sensations, but they also like EVs because of the instant torque response and constant acceleration. Sometimes I get the impression that people don't know what they want.
Muffin Racing I think people disliked early CVT transmissions because low speed acceleration was poor and so was response to throttle position. Newer CVT usually fix some of this (normal for newer technology). EVs on the other hand give a very quick response to throttle position and even mild acceleration in an EV "feels" strong. Never had a passenger in our Leaf complain about "there was no shift!".
The thing is, EV response is like being in the "best" gear at all times, without even an engine's throttle lag, let alone the shifting that a CVT or automatic needs to do if you haven't forcibly pre-shifted it to raise the revs (which is the real reason for the simulated fixed ratios). You stomp the pedal, and milliseconds later the motor is generating maximum output. If you're cruising in a CVT car, stomp the pedal, there's a momentary lull where the engine first suffers the slight lag you get at lower rpm anyway, then loses some of the extra power generated in the actual combustion chambers to increasing its own speed as the gear ratio drops, with road speed barely changing, before the full high-rpm power can be exerted.
(and no, you can't use the car's own momentum to push revs up without consuming engine power... at least, not without seeing the road speed *fall* slightly before starting to increase... nothing comes for free. this is the origin of the "rubber band effect" - it's like when you press the pedal you're stretching a band attached to the front of the car, and it takes a second or two before it's actually released. Similar to the kickdown lull in a regular auto, or the gearshift time in a manual, if you have to suddenly accelerate without warning and being able to pre-plan your shift... and sit there for a couple of seconds with the engine humming at high rpm before you actually get the chance to floor it)
Or in other words, the electric drive is a bit like how Gran Turismo deals with CVT-equipped cars. They rev up from a standstill similar to first gear in a normal car... and then the engine just sits at max-power rpm from there up to wherever it reaches the highest gear ratio, from where it revs out. If you let off the throttle, the rpm hardly drops at all (at most, falls to somewhere between max power and max torque, so it has very little ground to cover before producing its best possible power), until the car falls below the top end of "first" again, so the only thing that changes and affects output power is the throttle opening. It's just that electric is a lot quieter and more efficient than *actually* doing that...
If you've ever ridden a twist-and-go scooter, particularly a somewhat faster model (125cc injection or higher), it's kind of like that. If you try to ride at all fast, it ends up with the revcounter sitting mainly somewhere in the 7000+ range, and even though the variator is tuned to stop the ratio from shifting towards the taller end as early as you might choose to with a manual shift bike, if you've eased off and let the engine speed fall somewhat, there's a moment when you twist the throttle and the engine goes vvvVVVRRRRwwwwooOOOOO... THEN you suddenly get the sensation of renewed acceleration. If it actually let the engine rev right down, it'd be unrideable, rather like a holiday rental I once had with a very worn transmission that shifted up far too early, and when you applied full throttle the engine wasn't actually able to make enough power to raise it's own revs once the partial amount the transmission took from it was subtracted unless you kept the throttle half-on as much as possible and controlled the speed more using the rear brake instead of reducing engine power... combine that with an engine that was just a little more powerful at the low end and so could rev up from idle to max power whilst moving along and it'd be like the lag of early turbo cars. Several seconds of rising engine note but no actual increase in road speed, then it jerks forwards with the full amount suddenly available to the wheels at a point in time you have no real control over. A wonderful combination of slow yet dangerous.
A well controlled CVT won't sit and think before accellerating. It will give almost the exact feel of an electric car.
That's literally impossible, given that it has to deal with the inertia in both the engine and the car itself, which the electric motor doesn't have. Unless you leave it in a sport mode that keeps the engine revving near peak power all the time, making a total racket and wasting loads of fuel - or make use of pretend-fixed-ratio mode to pre-rev just before you need to accelerate, then slip it back into D once you're at full throttle - then the electric will have an advantage over the ICE in that its maximum power (or, at lower speeds, maximum torque) is *always* _instantly_ available. Like, within milliseconds, less time than it would even take the ICE to reach its next power stroke. Never mind the need for the engine to accelerate itself up to a shaft speed where it's making full power, with the transmission unable to tap the full amount of what it IS making until then because there needs to be some surplus left over in order to raise the revs.
If you're cruising at, say, 2000rpm, and your engine's max torque is around 4000 and max power around 6000, and you floor it, the transmission HAS to incorporate a little lag - the exact same as would be felt but in a shorter and sharper way through a geared automatic using kickdown, or when operating a manual / semiauto to drop a couple of gears in response to a sudden and unexpected need for acceleration - in order that the engine can almost triple its rpm, and perform the first part of that self-acceleration without even having full torque (= instantaneous piston force against the crankshaft) available, or indeed full boost for a turbo model. If you just sit parked in neutral, rev up to 2000, and then hoof it, you'll notice it takes a second or so to rev up to 5000~6000. When driving along, there's also going to be some extra load placed on the engine through the transmission, slowing down that self-acceleration, even if the CVT responds in a very "loose" manner so that the car doesn't accelerate at all until the engine is up to speed. In real world applications, you want there to be at least SOME response straight away, so the transmissions are programmed to split the difference somewhat. The car actually doesn't accelerate *on average* as fast as it would if a "loose" response similar to trad automatic kickdown was used (IE getting the engine to max power ASAP), because it spends more time at lower revs making less power, but it feels a little more responsive because there is at least some change to its speed within a half second or so of the pedal being booted. But that still leads to the "rubber band" effect where the revs rise relatively slowly and the acceleration that's felt builds in a steady manner for some seconds after the initial flooring event.
Any system that doesn't show either of those effects or a blend of them, when the engine hasn't been pre-revved, must be a hybrid that momentarily overboosts the electric motor to compensate for the ICE's shortcomings (with the ICE itself covering for the electric system's lack of range and sensitivity to low temperatures).
This is probably the only explanation that i've heard that actually explains the feeling properly.
i've only met people who complain about the simulated gears in the cvt. me too i find it weird. it defeats the purpose. with cvt all we want is smoothness and efficiency.
samus aran it's better than a constant scream from the engine. *Cough Mitsubishi*
I wish we could switch between the 2 configurations in the menues. People want fake gears? Fine, but allow the rest of us who understand cvt to put it back in a normal cvt configuration! Launching on a hignway ramp is so confortable in a normal cvt, and also faster! Anyway, snowmobiles have always been like that and nobody ever complained they're too boring, even petrolhead! The fake gears thing seems more of a soccer mom request than anything else.
+Double JJ no it's not, and you should probably let yourself out if that noise bothers you......because you are very alone hete
Abstract Approach I take it you have a Mitsubishi with a CVT?
I drive a Honda CR-Z with a CVT and when driving in automatic mode it is smooth and continuous - which is one of the reasons I like it - and when you go into "manual mode" you can use the paddle shifters which simulates gear changes... I've used it once.
Simulated gears: let’s take the benefit of a CVT, being at the best rpm for what is required, and throw it out the window.
It's not simulated gears... Have you even watched the video...?
It's like taking a movie shot in 4K 120fps, playing it on a projector capable of that, but having the video player downgrade it to 24fps so it looks choppy since people are used to seeing choppiness.
see: The hobbit
If its not simulated, then what is it? write "simulated" in google, here's a direct copy on the word simulation:"manufactured in imitation of some other material."
So if its imitating real gears, its simulated. It's like flight simulator, it makes you feel like you're in a real flight, but you don't.
yeah i know a bunch who likes the 'shifting gear' feeling when driving, but they also like the efficiency of cvt. then here it is, simulated shifting on a cvt and guess what? it makes it a little less efficient just because they just dont like the feeling of the normal one.
Amateur engineers. Just give them a tachometer that lies to them, put sub woofers in their seats to simulate the "bump" when an auto shifts, and play fake engine noises through the cars speakers. These people hate cars and driving anyway.
Haha, I actually quite like the idea of this.
shut the hell up and pay for your inefficient unreliable money sink car
BMW did something like that. people found out and complained.
how did you know about my 1988 RX-7
I was just about to say the something similar! But yes I think your idea would make more sense since a lot of car companies are playing fake engine noises over the speakers anyways
The Launch Gear is taking the stress off the cvt's belt when trying to move a 3000+ pound car from a dead stop..Once the car is moving the belt takes over... A Great Idea!
Good way of putting it!
I like it! I hate the idea of buying a cvt so the launch gear made sense to me.
That's correct, Launch gears in CVTs take the stress and slippage off the steel belt drums. Nice work Toyota. I own three Nissan w/ CVTs and I service them myself.
Its a patch job to make the cvt last longer, but not good engineering.
They should install this in every performing car
Thank God we are engineers and not humans :)
Yeah, because we love to fix the problems engineers create. We are truly blessed that you dont think like a human...with common sense.
My other half one asked if I was a "glass is half full" or a "glass is half empty" sort of guy.
I responded that the glass it twice as large as it needs to be and is an inefficient use of materials.
You sound a lot like Sheldon Cooper from the show Big Bang Theory in this video
Which reminds me of a funny comment I read somewhere "Engineers are in many ways like normal people".
Next year:
"Toyota adds five more gears to the CVT, no idea where to go from there"
Hahaha
Wouldn't it make sense if you had a 5 speed with a cat overdrive for driving enthusiasts.
damn beat me to it. I'm personally excited to see this revolutionary idea of specialized gears for each road-speed for a greater range of efficient operating conditions.
that is... Toyota add 5 more gears to... the infinity gears gearbox...
those Japanese....😂😂😂😂
They will have essentially gone back to an automatic. People need to quit bitching. CVT's are awesome.
I can just picture how the engineers facepalmed when they were told to add the virtuel shift function by marketing crew haha
that would be epic... lol
"people like the gears shifting,,,, can, canya ma-make it shift gears again, ehem"
It got me though. I accept Toyota becoz of this hahaha, or else I would only choose mazda.
What do you mean " These human people"? Always knew you were an alien with those whiteboard skills :P
Is this the first video where he didn’t pull a brake disc, clutch or friction pad out of his back pocket
I'd like to imagine he just carries random car parts around all the time, and shows them at every opportunity he gets.
It's off camera but he's wearing a CVT belt to hold up his pants.
Dan Van best comment lmfaooooo
lmao
Dan Van And the belt adjusts automatically during a big meal.
Transmission Longevity is likely the primary reason for the brilliant (in my opinion) addition of using a gear in place of belt for initial take off drive component; the added efficiency’s were also very well explained. Thank you. Certainly simulated shift “feel” defeats the purpose of a a CVT. Love the video for its educational value and its spot on color commentary.
Excellent communication on your part! You are a fine educator.
I love my smooth CVT. All I need is to push the accelerator and go. With the small engine in my car, it needs all the help it can get. If I floor it, 6krpm until I decide to stop flooring it. I could see the CVT being helpful in keeping things smaller than a traditional AT, though. There may also be 'wear' regions at those certain ratios that keeps wear down under high load, perhaps?
Boats do not shift, snowmobiles do not shift, electric cars do not shift, airplanes do not shift. With the low displacement engines of today, I want peak HP as soon as I can get it.
I drive a 1.6l Kia, the automatic would hunt between 5 and 6 while on cruise, drove me crazy, so I purchased the 6sp Manual.
I do not want placebo shifts said Sam I am. When we actually have main stream electric cars that can drive 300 miles and not cost a medium size house, are they going to put in capacitors that kick on line at certain rpm's to give the "illusion" of a shift? All this wasted engineering and efficiency because of some luddites. I say, let them ride horses instead :-)
So many things about this comment are amazing
@@slep5039 I agree. For example, where is this man finding a medium sized house for the cost of a tesla model s
It's because that's what they're used to and therefore what a car is "supposed" to feel like. Might as well as play engine noises through the speakers as well... Oh wait they have cars that do that already.
I'm betting the direct drive helps the cvt last longer
@@rickross8172 Just about anywhere, according to Zillow.
Hey Jason - I rent a lot of cars for work, and some times that has me trying things I never would - CVT included. Turns out the CVT in the current gen maxima V6 doesn't totally suck. Mash the pedal, and it goes to the lowest ratio it can, revs to peak torque, revs up to peak HP,, "shifts" back to peak torque, lather, rinse, repeat until it runs out of gear ratios at 136MPH. That car changed my opinion of CVTs completely on a late night on an empty road int he middle of nowhere. I think performance/enthusiast CVTs are around the corner. I'll keep my 6 speed for now, but it's definitely a segment worth keeping an eye on.
Yes, the new Maxima is surprisingly quick, and the CVT isn't bad at all in it.
CVT is the future. The community is just being anal as always.
“Surprisingly quick” I thought the Maxima SR would actually be quick with 300hp, until I ran one in the street. It’s slower than a 140whp 5 speed integra 😂
Caleb Rodgers well it weighs over 1,000Lbs more than your Integra and the cvt is tuned for efficiency not performance even in the SR trim so don't be so surprised. That being said, nice kill dude!
Nissan was one of the first to jump wholeheartedly on the CVT bandwagon, and I think it shows in their transmission tuning. Let's be real, their early CVTs were hot garbage; but they've learned and improved from that. I've also driven a modern Maxima with CVT and was impressed with how little I noticed the transmission - which, to me, is the sign of a good automatic transmission. If I notice it, most of the time it's because it did something I didn't like. Driving the Maxima hard felt like driving any other sporty sedan hard.
I like the stepless ecvt in my gen 3 prius. I love that it is very mechanically simple. It's just 2 motor generators, a couple of planetary gear sets and a passive clutch to protect the engine from the motor torque.
Electric Launch, it's no Tesla, it's not even a Leaf, but at least it ain't whatever the heck this "Launch Gear" wants to be haha
These "Human" people!!!
Aking Mongza I
Best reply I ever read on this channel
hahah I knew this will come back to me. I was watching on my ipad and it fell on my face accidentally writing that comment. I was rushing to get rid of it haha
I think that he is referring to the "Planet America" :)
Yes, you human guys are weird indeed.
Thank you very much for keeping us informed on the newest coolest tech being put into cars these days!
You are not lying! Jason is awesome!
Toyota spends all that money on CVT technology and then imagine their group of engineers when they tell them that it has to shift... usless lol.
they do that basically because a CVT will cost them less to manufacturer than AT and people want AT in their cars
@@billybob042665 mazda use AT and still has good gas mileage.
@@billybob042665 Apparently those fuel economy standards aren't unobtainable if Toyota found a way to obtain them.
My daily. An 09 caliber RT. Doesn’t have the fake shift points. I like that under hard acceleration it holds peak rpm and just keeps accelerating
Some year/model of the Cali had a CVT "Auto-Stick" (dual mode/simulator) option. However, my '09 SXT is a standard 5-speed stick - simple and reliable. It hits 3000 rpm in 5th at about 65 mph, which seems a little high
Great explanation as always. I too have not fallen in love with the CVT feel and don’t own one. But I get why it is more efficient. Looks like the way of the future in transmission.
Great video I like the 1st gear idea would probably extended the belt life to bad about the fake gear ratios after. I love cvt's, rode sleds long before cvt's were in automobiles and love the feeling of hitting peak torque followed by insane acceleration.
I have a Honda Fit with a CVT and really like it. Also have a pickup with a 5 spd manual. I really enjoy driving both.
JohnAudioTech Honda Fit has now CVT?? That’s interesting but AT would sound better.
Yes, the latest generation (from 2015 on) has the CVT or a 6spd manual. I wanted the manual but it is geared for very high engine rpm on the highway where the CVT runs much lower rpm.
your comment is far to neutral, You should at least complain about automatics......with lots of curse words and flamboyancy......that's what I do!
Glad to read that I'm not the only one who likes both the CVT and a manual transmission. However, I dislike most conventionally geared automatic transmissions as they often feel like they're into high a gear ratio. CVT's, on the other hand, are rather linear in their response. It's so frustrating to drive a conventionally geared automatic that I just use manual mode due to the frustration of bad gear choice they often make.
AWDfreak I love them all. My 6spd auto 14 Elantra shifted gears beautifully and pulled power from that little 1.8L like I couldn't believe. Hitting 120mph was easy and cruising at 70mph at 2k rpm getting 38mph was the norm. I however traded it for my 17 Focus ST purely because I wanted a faster sportier daily driver. I also rented a Nissan Versa before with a CVT I found rode perfectly. This was years ago before adding that feel the shift crap. Each tech is great in its own right. Sports car automatics are starting to get better times than the manuals though so in a few years I guess I'll go that route.
Let's not kid ourselves that we engineers are rational on everything either. I approve of the powertrain engineers that purposely inject fuel during shifts purely for the exhaust burbles and pops despite technically making the vehicle less efficient.
Haha, sounds so good!
Engineers design it, mechanics fix it.
agreed, i would prefer to switch off those steps, i see it kinda pointless.
Engineers are very rational. They know that they need to make a living.
They use what they know to do the best that they can to meet a set of requirements. Thos requirements are prioritized, and in this case, having amore traditional faked gear "feel" was given a higher priority than absolute efficiency by marketing.
Jackstandjohnny you are the Panthro to their Tygra.
The engine with CVT can stay at optimal rpm and produce max horsepower at all times. That’s a huge advantage over geared cars where rpm and horsepower climbs and drops with every gear.
If i owned a CVT, I would never want it to have "fixed" gear points. Hence why I stick with manual.
People annoy me - "I don't want to shift gears myself, but I want to feel them being shifted" good video though.
Yet I need to learn how to shift where passengers don't get whiplash... I'm getting there, one grinding sound at a time!
a proverb in Egypt says: they wanna be fucked but they are worry being pregnant :D
I. Hate feeling my car shift. At times I am just like, keep the low rpms and go.
"Well, not you guys; the guys who drive CVTs." Priceless. Also known as my wife.
Great work as always! Thank you! My issue with CVT transmissions is reliability. There are several videos showing how this push belt technology is not as durable and long-lived as one might hope for. Saturn Vue and Nissan Rogue have both had poor success with the CVT transmission. Hopefully this launch gear will alleviate some of those shortcomings!
Long time subscriber. I love how in your old videos you talked about similar concepts hypothetically and now you say things like "it'll be cool to try out" confident youll be able to do so. its awesome seeing how much you've grown!
The only thing that I didn’t like about older CVT’s was the buzzing sound of a small 4-cylinder engine at a high, constant rpm during brisk acceleration. I understand that the CVT was keeping the engine at peak horsepower, but it sounded more like a cheap, carpet vacuum than a traditional engine/transmission combo. If only they had increased the sound damping material to where that high rpm drone was inaudible...
Another brilliant video. Thx for your great work
I love my car's CVT (2018 RAV4 Hybrid) I love the fact that its super effecent and will just run at its peak Horsepower whenever I try to get up to speed on a highway. I believe it has a mode where I can select a fixed gear ratio and drive it like a manual if I wanted too. I'm sure it also has a "automatic transmission" mode somewhere as well lol
For my driving style, I wouldn’t dip into that fake shifting stuff too much, but it is frustrating it can’t be turned off. When we had our Freestyle with the CVT, there main feeling I got while cruising on 16-hr road trips was “elegance”. While going up and down hills in the Appalachian Mountains, never once did a hard shift wake up my three sleeping kids. It was advanced and refined.
I am excited about the new Auris that Toyota has just unveiled, looks good, the 2.0 Hybrid has about 180HP which is enough for comfortable and enjoyable ride. But this CVT "fake shifting" may spoil it. Lets see how will the car be in reality.
Dulus hi! I drove it last week and I can tell you that engine is very good. I vould definately buy a 2.0 corolla hybrid, but I have serious doubts about the life expectancy of the cvt built in it (I’s NOT what Toyota uses in their 1.8 liter hybrids, those have only a planetary gear). Its basically a new developement (similat to this, but for hybrid cars).
Started driving Prii with their CVTs and I never want to go back to a transmission with gears. It's like driving a locomotive, in that the engine runs at the precisely correct speed and load for the amount of power you're asking for. That said, I also drove an '05 Civic hybrid with a CVT, and it was awful.
Wait till the belt fails and you have to change a transmission
I do love CVT as it's a lot safer in the mountains with the snow / slush / ice (Subaru Outback), as there is no interruption in force on the road. I do love manual in summer in the mountains without any snow / slush / ice on summer tires.
lost an arm few years ago in accident, went new car shopping,$50kAU range, narrowed down to a golf R dsg or a Brz/86 auto (to then be supercharged,same $) then begrudgingly tried the WRX cvt.Wowed me so much I now own 1.A few upgrades later i couldnt be happier.
Awesome to hear you're enjoying your new ride! The FA20 in the WRX is great!
I have a 2015 Toyota Corolla s with the cvt and I hate how it steps the simulated gears when in automatic mode. That defeats the whole point of the cvt!
1019wc1019- exactly. I wish normal mode was completely normal CVT function, Sport Mode with higher ratios and revs used but still constant, and then Sport Plus which would mimic shifting, plus manumatic paddle mode!
MyerShift7 ill never get that starting gear cus my corolla will probably be the only gas engine car i have in my life. Next one will be a hydrogen fuel cell hopefully. Electric is not the future.
@@1019wc1019 - What praytel does the hydrogen fuel cell run? An electric motor !
@@nssherlock4547 yea dummy. I mean batteries.
Awesome as usual thank you sir
I had snowmobiles growing up in the 80s and 90s.
I don’t know if they still do, but they had a cvt belt drive system, with a gear reduction box to the track on the opposite side of the engine.
They worked great. We would change the gear ratios in the box, and the springs on the cvt pulleys. It would really improve the acceleration dramatically. Fun memories.
My first car was a 2005 Ford five hundred with the FWD CVT. Though many buyers had multiple issues with the trans, i had none. I slightly modded the exhaust and intake, and it still ran as good if not better. The CVT made it into a sleeper sedan with the right driver in it. though Ford said the 0 - 60 was 7.9 - 8.2 seconds, i recorded 6.5 - 7.1 consistently. CVT's are fun when in the right car, but an auto or Manual has that bite between gears that i love, especially with the right exhaust note. Great Video!
Forgot to add, the ZF CVT that ford used in the Five Hundred had a "low" gear option, which allowed for very quick accelerations, and there was a button behind the pedal that acted as an "Overdrive" button, that launched the car (4150 RPM to 5600 RPM) into a different gear ratio in the CVT, that allowed for better WOT acceleration
Human people?! I’m trying to get smooth up and down shifts using rev matching, while these human people want to feel unsmooth shifts? Introduce inefficiency for consumer satisfaction..... maybe I’m just too german.
not german enough cause... ur still 'trying'.. lol
For real. I get a little satisfaction every time I shift without jerkiness, yet these people want the jerkiness. Idiots
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, no Rubberband Effect here.
No simulated gear changes. Thank God.
Actually it does have the gear changes (hence paddle shifters). If you floor it, it will work through different set ratios. If you keep relatively low throttle positions, it will work as it's designed to.
Cody Lee Have you noticed issues with your AWD system? I was interested in the CVT crosstrek (1st gen), but there are videos where we see it struggling on rollers when the front wheels are turned. Apparently it happens only with the CVT, the manual version uses a more classic AWD system.
Cody Lee my 2017 Impreza has simulated gear shifts.
Jean-Francois Berube Keep in mind Subaru programmed their awd to transfer less power with the wheels turned all the way as opposed to Mazda which programmed their system to do the exact opposite.
niuhuskieguy It doesn't only transfer less power, it basically disengage the rear and you got no way of making it work when the wheels are turned. This means you are stuck FWD when trying to get out of a parralel park. What i love about my mom legacy gt (the manual gearbox and the usual clutch pack that makes tight turn on pavement awkward) is that i can parralel park where ever i want in a snow storm, when everyone is out pushing and shoveling their FWD (or CVT crosstrek i guess)
My 2007 Nissan Murano had a CVT and I actually liked it. It was extremely smooth and I had no problems or complaints about it. When I put my foot down it would stay just below redline until it couldnt go any faster. I dont understand why anyone would be against a lighter, smoother transmission.
First time CVT made awsome.
The dominant use for Geared will be the racing and while the other portions(CVT) will be for efficient Cruising.
Thanks for the nice video.
I'm always rather annoyed at "enthusiasts" and automotive journalists who habitually hate on CVTs - they're incredible engineering solutions and their operation is so much more sensible than most dual clutch systems. There's a reason why they're banned in F1, and it isn't because of a lack of reliability or performance.
shinybaldy Agreed! Have a car with a CVT. It really doesn't bother me unless the engine sounds good.
if you've got an f1 budget you can make a $500,000 cvt that will handle power, that doesn't work in a corolla
if you were making an improved version of a 500.000 cvt every year since the early 90s you"d by now have all the knowledge needed to build a great, and cheap cvt
Personally from friends and colleagues, I've heard of just as many conventional automatics failing as CVTs. Not really sure if modern automatics are any more reliable than matured CVT tech. Nissan certainly stands behind them, and wouldn't have extended their warranties unless they were confident the financial cost wouldn't sink them.
driving without upshift and downshift is kinda weird for me.
Damn I did not know about this thank you for your enlightenment even though I enjoy manual alot more
Great explanation what I hear is an improvement in hopeful longevity of the transmission because the most demanding request from the transmission at acceleration is now converted to a direct gear limiting the wear and heat generated from the belt design. It will be interesting to see how this transmission plays out and whether or not that translates to real world reliability improvements. PS I'm one of those car enthusiast that likes performance and shifting gears but due to cost happen to drive a hybrid CVT. I think overall I've adjusted well and found that cvts do have a place in the world in my opinion of them has totally changed after driving one for several years.
i bought a 2023 corolla (2.0L) and the gearbox clunk (it clunks the moment i press or release the gas pedal) the dealer says its "normal" !!
My Wife’s Rogue AWD CVT has shift paddles that are surprisingly fun. She says she can’t feel the difference between regular transmission and CVT, but it is much smoother. And when you floor it you get optimum acceleration. Me personally I love manuals, but the wifey doesn’t so that’s what she have and I’ll use the paddle shifters when possible to make it more enjoyable for myself.
Too bad Toyota doesn’t let the driver choose. For instance by means of a Eco/Comfort/Sports switch.
I just read a comment saying they had a longer warranty, so that may have something to do with it. they should still offer it with a reduced warranty IMO but the psychological impact of having to knowingly detune the car to get the extension might drive people to other models.
So as us horsey lovers are the minority, and no one on >2 wheels really care about us......it seems we're screwed.
Agreed, I would love a car where the engine rpms never go above 2,000 and the car speed goes all over the place.
I do love the CVT feel though.
VMiXEZ I love my scooter too
VMiXEZ Me too
I know it's not a real CVT (it's better), but something has to be said for the hybrid eCVTs. They pull like a train, particularly the 2.0 litres and above.
Great channel, I have a 2017 Outlander with a 2.0 4 cylinder using a CVT transmission; just wanted to point out that during maximum acceleration the CVT eliminates all steps and maintains very high RPM's while the accelerator is fully engaged , on the other hand during normal driving it simulate 6 gears.
I test drove a 2018 Cvic with a CVT and I was impressed by it. I think for a daily economical car a CVT transmission is great. For a sports car I prefer a manual transmission.
I still use a Bicycle
With CVT? They also have Davinci Drive hubs now, I've heard those are cool. I'm still using traditional chain and sprocket, but I think a CVT bike would be fun to try out sometime.
Our tandem has a Nuvinci CVT it takes all the jumps out that confuse the stoker when i change gears.
Best “MOBILE DEVISE” made, BICYCLE!
can you explain more why cvt is less efficient in extreme gear ratio?
In the extreme ratios you have the largest difference in angular velocity, and by extension, the largest difference in torque. So when you're using these extreme ratios, there is slip between the belt and the pulleys which causes a decrease in efficiency. There will always be a small amount of slippage, and that can't be avoided. But it's a bit like how you can get your wheels to spin when driving in 1st gear, but you'd struggle to in 5th. With wheel spin not being the quickest way to launch, exactly the same principle.
Good point!
a friend of mine has a wrx with a cvt, and zipping through crowded traffic jumping around between 30-75mph, i can't think of something that was much easier to use. it was always in the meat of the power band, it was always in boost, the throttle response always felt plenty snappy. it was probably the best situation for that engine/transmission combo short of a powerful electric drivetrain.
I own a Camry with 8 speed auto. The 2.5L engine and transmission are a perfect match with a 6,700 RPM redline. I use the manual mode almost daily. Great car that is fun to drive.
Why go to Toyota for sports car. Lol agreed. Haha. Dude these are the best videos for car guys on the net. Keep it going bro!!!
the only real sports car toyota made was the Supra
earlibee I'd mention the GT86/FR-S/BR-Z, but that's like 90-95% Subaru
counterfit5 😂
forgetting about the LFA and the MR2?
Excuse you! The AE86 is like, the best sports car ever!
This is common. Normal people don’t understand what they own, they buy a lesser product because it it, companies design products accordingly.
The 1.5 turbo Honda CVT With some light mods is pretty insane. It’s crazy being in a Honda taking off at peak RPM and just staying there the whole time.
I bought a 2017 Subaru Forester and it's my first car with a CVT and after a year of driving it, I figured out how to drive it properly. If I keep it around 1000 to 1500 RPM, it's a nice and smooth start not to mention still in the 20MPG range too from a stop and I absolutely love it. I love driving this SUV.
Why does CVT lose efficiency at higher speeds? Does the belt start to slip?
I think it has more to do with the difference in pulley diameters. At the two extreme ends of the band of pulley ratios - at the lowest "gear" when the engine-side pulley is smallest diameter and the driveshaft-side pulley is largest diameter; and at the highest "gear" when the engine-side pulley is largest diameter and the driveshaft-side pulley is smallest diameter. When the pulley diameters have a big difference between them the belt slips a little and loses some efficiency.
I don't think humans like stepped transmission because of some natural preference. My theory is that, along with a bias that came from experience with less than stellar early CVT's, people associate engines that don't advance rpm's when the throttle is increased (so called "droning") with engines that don't have much power.
That old Ford Falcon wagon, or Volkswagen bus that couldn't get out of it's own way made the same sound when you hit the accelerator. Even though it's obvious from the sensation of speed that the CVT is producing good acceleration, the sound of the engine is triggering something from your experience with earlier cars.
Just my opinion, but honestly I think they ought to make stepless CVT's and tell everyone to just get over it.
I agree. The droning comes from engine RPM not changing, because its so low powered it takes forever to accelerate (ok, not forever, but when your 0-60 time is over 30 seconds, all you can do is laugh until you almost pass out, then laugh some more because you're still not to 60). If the engine has some punch, it's constantly changing RPM as it accelerates, so I think that really is the problem people have with them.
We just need some CVT sports cars that feel like they are pulling your face off. That will change the opinion on CVT and "droning".
Same story with Direct Ignition. They started using cvt for extra 1 or 2 mpg (fuel efficiency and emission regulations). they are trading long term reliability for that extra fuel efficiency. I prefer the proven conventional auto (specific make/model) plus they tend to have extra weight capacity. Allison transmission uses conventional design for a reason (no cvt)
Mpg sells, unreliability also... it's a win-win for them.
modern cvt's are much better then the first ones to hit the market. Also, automatic transmission's aren't usually known for their reliability. I'm sure as the tech evolves more we will see cvt's that can handle at least light towing (which is all car's in NA are rated for anyway)
I've driven big trucks with many gears. I suppose if they want some thing "interesting", they could drive a 6 speed where they can range select and split gears. What I like is, it goes forward and doesn't break the bank.
I know this is weird to ask, but can you explain the difference between a CVT and a dual Clutch gearbox?
CVT - ua-cam.com/video/SQLeKdZWGI4/v-deo.html
DCT - ua-cam.com/video/oOciX6kdexE/v-deo.html
Reversi I think he made a video about it. Basically CVT is constantly variable so it has no gears(or infinite gears), dual clutch is basically a automated manual, with 2 clutches. One clutch is connected to the inner shaft and odd gears (1,3,5,7,9?) and the second one is connected to the outer shaft and other gears(2,4,6,8). That's the reason they are insanely fast because a gear change basically comes down to switching the clutch and the gears are changed in between shifts.
everything?
Dual clutches are essentially two manual transmissions, odd and even, stuck together, and electronically switched.
An easy way to imagine a CVT is to look at a bicycle's gears, and pretend it's a smooth cone that the belt can choose where to sit ger any ratio within its its limits.
Ruben Cromeyer it's not like _you_ know _everything_ from the get-go. People start somewhere, no need to say someone's lacking in information when they *ask* a question.
#SaveTheManuals
I always save my car manual. How else am I going to read it later?
Ive owned CVT 7 speed toyota vios and owned honda civic 1.5 turbo CVT and previously owned nissan murano CVT... CVT are improved after this yrs... I looking forward for this new CVT
Been driving 50 years and had many cars and trucks, love my 16 Maxima SR. Fun big car! Interesting video.
CVT can't outperform DCTs like the DSG in my opinion (except for fuel economy)
That's because they never have a tuned engine and work in performance mode. Well at least in most cars.
Who down-voted? This was (and always is) GREAT!
Appreciate it!
probably one of those weirdos that goes to every single video about cars and says "yeah but electric cars"
Who voted down? Perhaps someone that is not “mechanically inclined”. Keep them videos coming, sir!!. Love my first cup of java in the morning with these videos!!
Mishael Barrios why would anyone not interested in mechanics even visit any videos on this channel?
I mean, does any of you fellow Engineeringexplained's subscribers go around youtube, downvoting videos about how certain colours "feel" or how to smell daisies?
OMG, he said he liked CVT's! So the Traditional Transmission Trolls will immediately down vote.
Great and informative video as always. 😎
The Mitsubishi Mirage has had a 2 speed "axle" in front of their CV transmission since 2014. Something like the old 2 speed differentials on the old ford trucks....the first truck I drove had a split shift.
I’ve driven my 2010 Prius since she was a baby. The CVT is a pleasure to drive and aside from routine maintenance I’ve averaged less than $100/year for 10 years on the Prius. There is a beauty to efficiency and solid engineering that can’t be denied. As a car guy I’ve raced, owned a ridiculous number of cars, and did my own wrenching for many years. I can say that the Prius is the best car I’ve ever owned. Easily.
Just started watching the video but here's a like anyway!! Great channel!! 🙂 I can't understand the downvotes.
Rob C True that... Even if I don't like a UA-cam video occasionally, I do not jump and downvote. Only rarely do I downvote...
Could also just be misclicks on mobile. Or bots that occasional chose some videos to downvote to normalize their behavior.
Understand that the majority of downvotes are on error. The other are from those who take offense of his opinion. That's my guess...
Rob C down voting is also used as a way to teach the UA-cam algorithms what you want recommend and what you don’t, they aren’t always a reflection of the videos, but a reflection of the taste a person has to their feed
Most likely bots or trolls. The number increase with the amount of subs and views.
Care to name the good cvts?
Good as in which way?
Chukwu1967 audi
Toyota by far
None really they all have high failure rates compared to a traditional automatic.
This would also save wear on the cvt belt in that 1/3 of the speed range would be gear on gear during the highest stress period...
Can you do a video on the actual parts of a CVT? It's a subject that there's almost no information about, for example how the different types of belts/chains are constructed, pros/cons, and how they manage to operate reliably with "pulleys" that pinch them between two plates of metal instead of running in a track.
Personally I don't care how changing gears feels like, I want a reliable transmission and CVTs aren't reliable
Explain Hondas CVTs that reach 300k + mileage
Possible video on hydrogen combustion engine vehicles?
Don't waste your time. Hydrogen is dead. For the last 15 years, they have been saying "we'll have a hydrogen economy in 5 years".
It's not going to happen. It's too difficult to store, and too expensive to manufacture the fuel cells. Battery powered vehicles have easily surpassed hydrogen.
Hey Jason, after reading and seeing all the info on blown cvt's. Toyota has that launch gear setup as hopefully stronger piece of this whole cvt pie. When you think about the huge torque load the cvt belt is under at dead stop, it is literaly the weakest link. Lol
I love my cvt in my rx400h. Combined with hybrid electric helps launch nicely. Its got 276k and still going strong! No issues at all
HUR DUR I NEED MY CAR TO SHIFT. Why would the engineers even put steps into the CVT? :/
As explained, because that’s what people want.
But people rarely know what they really want. It's annoying to put efficiency on the back burner to sell a few more cars now.
Also this is the first time I've gotten a reply. Hey.... whats up....
I rented a Nissan Versa or something and it was super annoying to have the CVT "shift". It didnt have a lot of horsepower in the first place and what it did have was wasted on "experience" instead of helping merge at a proper speed.
CVTs are great... When they are new.
Casey Stoner :o
If you maintain them properly, they remain great.
Casey Stoner Talking to Nissan?
This is Toyota.
How do you maintain a CVT? These CVT are supposed to be maintenance-free and should last the lifetime of the car, 11 years average. 15 years for a toyota.
This reminds me of the CVT in my Mirage. It has a two-speed gearbox attached to the output of the CVT which supposedly increases the ratio range of the transmission. It makes the transmission jerky around the 45mph mark when it kicks to the higher gear and resets the belt ratio, but I can cruise at 65mph at around 1800rpm, which is great for gas mileage!
I love the Multitronic CVT in my Audi and I think it has a couple of advantages and a disadvantage over Toyota's in terms of feel.
Firstly, the launch gear on Toyota's is a great idea. It should really eliminate that lag when pulling out of a junction quickly. My car does have quite a perceivable delay whilst the transmission engages and I imagine the direct first gear will be good for reliability as there is less stress on the belt.
However, I don't like the idea of a CVT faking gears under normal modes. I like how my Audi does this. In normal 'drive' mode it's in constant CVT economy mode and if I floor it into it's kickdown mode, it quickly goes into optimal RPM for the best constant acceleration. So I always have the choice of best MPG or best acceleration.
If I drop into sport mode or tiptronic mode then it emulates a 7 speed automatic with a sharper throttle response. Sure it's not as quick as what I can get out of 'drive' but sport is more for maximum enjoyment than performance.
I have never drove a car with CVT, however I have converted a petrol 50cc CVT scooter to electric:
ua-cam.com/video/bhzceCFnvgg/v-deo.html
What I very quickly found out is that it is very HARD to shift a CVT under high load. With single cylinder petrol engine it somehow manages to shift fine, but with continuous torque from electric motor it simply did not lift the belt, no matter how heavy the eccentric masses were. When idling or going slightly downhill, it shifts fine, but under heavier load - no-no. Same thing I have observed with NuVinci CVT hub for bicycles: you have to ease on your pedaling to shift the ratio. In my case, I had to ditch the CVT entirely, as it was a total failure with electric motor.
I believe this is the main reason why CVTs are mimicking hard shifting: it has to lower the torque to shift, as shifting asks for too much force to do under high load.
I love it when a BUG to engineer becomes a FEATURE in marketing department.
The CVT gocarts usually do fine other than take off from my experience (very choppy). The biggest problem is they have cheap $40 pulleys, and they usually have the RPM way too low (cutting back on already weak engines). You probably are experiencing the same, if you modify the weights (essentially its shift point), then they should work a lot better.
Agriculture and farming has used CVT on high horsepower application for a while for varying RPM of machinery, and its very fine RPM control that lasts and lasts. Its very smooth (and this is on equipment older than me).
In case of agriculture, the CVT assembly is probably an order of magnitude bulkier in terms of kW per kg. It's the same with CVTs in gokarts and scooters, that typically do up to around 3kW... But when take a similar sized CVT and feed 100kW+, then it's a different story. Also there is a big difference in torque stability. CVT works well with 1 cylinder engines because you only see torque for maybe 1/3 of revolution, while 4 cylinders generate almost constant torque. And in my case, when electric motor was used, CVT did not work at all under load.
Weird, this was on a 6 cylinder turbocharged diesel engine at 200+ HP (smooth input, and super smooth output). You could manually adjust by hand or electric motors to change pulley separation and therefore speed. It was a large unit, but it was designed to last 50+ years of heavy use under very poor operating conditions and maintenance.
Best of luck on your project. The biggest thing I'm thinking that was different is your torque curve on your electric is much different than the gas engine. Electric torque just keeps falling off with increased RPM, so I think that would be a bigger issue than it not being smooth. Either that or power difference was different. Good luck.
This project was completed 8 years ago, I've moved forward in life since.
Torque curve of properly controlled electric motor is actually completely flat until around 80% of max RPM, when it starts to taper off.
If you ever have a chance, go to cycling trade show and try a bicycle with NuVinci CVT hub. They have electrified them by now, but you can still observe it's really hard to shift the ratio under heavy torque. Older models had two-cable mechanical shifter which was impossible to shift when pedaling hard.
A CVT bike is something I want to try out sometime, so that would be a good test thanks for recommending it.
Must be using a different motor ESC than I've used for brushless. Mine don't have variable timing with RPM, so you can set them up to either have high torque at low or high RPM, but not really both. My cousin make a program for giving max torque at almost any setting, so you have stupidly high torque at sub 60 rpm using a car alternator (as the motor), or you could have really good RPM, but you couldn't use that same toruque at high RPM, it just wouldn't work. He had to program a micro-controller since we couldn't find anything available for this application where you squeeze the max power out of every RPM, and have it tunable from a laptop (just like cars where you can adjust per RPM timing advance). Otherwise at something aggressive like 35 degree timing advance like my race quad motors run, you can have de-sync issues where the motor just "lets go" because the position jumps out and looses all of its power. Which reminds me, today I need to lower the timing advance on those motors...
I like to control the speed at which my car moves using a heavy right foot, and that big stick thing in the middle!
Brodie Bennett Yeah! The big stick in your car is the only big stick you will ever hold in your hand. 😂
CVT is the ideal way to translate your heavy right foot to real speed - I should know since my foot is sometimes a bit heavy as well. The CVT's I drove, incidentally, had a big stick thing in the middle,. You didn't have to move it very often, I'll admit that.
+mjouwbuis CVTs tend to be a tad less efficient than your typical manual and a lot of them use fluid couplings (like a traditional auto), which introduce further losses, so it really depends on the configuration.
Maybe a close ratio sequential would also be to your liking ;)
Even my Nissan CVT is nice to drive, nice steady pulls and no up and down revving. I can't wait to try out the Toyota CVT, it got to be better.
I own the Toyota LE ECO corolla. The worst thing about the CVT in the car is the response from a stop. Hopefully this new launch gear will fix that. I hate having to pull out quickly in the corolla. It just cant pull out quickly from a stop.
i think using the cvt in virtual preset gears mode could actually be better, because if the belt is varying all the time it will inevitably slip, because varying the belt position radially makes it loose traction around the cones, so simulating gears makes it generate less heat and less power loss. it all depends on whether or not its 25 gears simulated or 6 gears simulated
Whether it's constantly varying or simulating gears doesn't change the fact that its still a belt and isn't locked to either one of the cones. You might find that when it does the simulated shifts while accelerating, the RPM difference makes a significant change in torque load on the belt, inducing slip.
That being said, the engineers have probably figured out how to prevent belt slip anyway so its probably fairly irrelevant.
I just wish that given the widespread use of digital car systems they would give you an option to turn on or off the constantly variable or simulated shift mode. Like manual mode in a traditional auto style thing. Or like a software switch. That would be very cool.
by design the belt looses traction when varying the gear ratio, so slowly moving the cones while accelerating slows down your car a bit and wears out the cones and belt. virtual gears reduce the periods of slipping a lot
it shouldn't but it does. at constant ratios it doesn't but when changing the ratios its mechanically impossible for it not to slip
Honda does that to civic 1.5 turbo and crv 1.5 turbo
At low speed high torque we need a LOW gear ratio ,
Again at higher speed we need a HIGH gear ratio !
But
Hear me out
You could drive a manual lol
Cookedzombies34 You've got the right idea!
Toyota USA only has 1 or 2 cars with manual as far as I see
Haha, my thoughts exactly.
An actual cvt is much more efficient. It smooths out the torque curve, and maintains peak horsepower for any rpm. And I am sort of that "push the efficiency to its brink" type of a guy. It is much more difficult than increasing power.
U gearhead trolls r as bad as the EV trolls lol
Nice video. Just bought a 2015 CRV for the wife. CVT is much improved from the previous gen with a 5 speed. Honda’s new accord comes with a 10 speed. Will you do a video on it? You mentioned the 8 speed at the end, so I’m curious as to which direction Manufacturer’s will go into 2020. Always enjoy the vids!
I like my Toyota 2018 Corolla and it's transmission it works very well. I look for comfort yet I own the "Sport" version". I like the CVT very much.
As a cvt owner the only thing I hate is the made up "first gear" program on my car.
i'd go for a cvt it it wasn't for the torque converter. why do all automatics use torque converters?
John Scarce because of clutch maybe
When you're at a stop it helps the car get off the line easier
i mean why not use electronically controlled clutch?
John Scarce i don't know maybe this way is more reliable
Interesting. I have some theories as to why. Maybe the clutch packs in the gearbox cannot take the force of the motor instantaneously. The slip from the torque converter allows the packs to ease into place and lock up the new gear. If the torque converter wasn't there the slip would be internal in the gearbox wearing out the clutch packs. A manual is gear driven so you don't need to worry about burning clutch packs in the gearbox. They can take the force as soon as the clutch is released. I'm no engineer or car mechanic but if someone is I would like to know what they think.
I had a Nissan Juke AWD DiGT only available with CVT and loved its smoothness and acceleration - not many sold in the UK!
I have driven the latest sample of Hyundai-KIA's SmartStream Powertrain with CVT in a KIA K3 (Forte in US) in Korea. The port injected 1.6 with IVT(What KIA calls CVT) was a marvel. It didn't have this fancy launch gear but its operation was very "geared" feel and I had over 38 mpg in fuel economy. And this 123-hp powertrain felt stronger than old 140-hp unit with 6-speed automatic. It will be interesting to see when this new stuff comes to the US.