I think Dermerzel is the real ruler of Empire. She nurtures the Cleons, Dawn, Day and Dusk as tools that she uses to circumvent the limitations inherent to a robot. She has found a way to make them ignorant of the real past events that put her in this position of always caring for them in so many ways. In all likelihood, she knows the population of Empire would not accept a robot as a ruler so she uses the Cleons as a form of official face to the ones that have real power.
*Spoilers* Kalle is probably just one of many physical bodies used by Demerzel (Daneel - yep, Goyer confirmed it!) as an avatar her decentralised consciousness, just as Demerzel herself is probably one of many such physical avatars operating simultaneously. The core of this galaxy-wide decentralised robotic consciousness is probably still on the Moon, where the original Daneel still awaits and manipulates the galaxy through his physical avatars scattered across the galaxy.
Let's start with what we think we know: The Prime Radiant (PR) is a single handheld device, and the only one in existence. Both the PR and the Vault, are capable of storing and processing digital intelligences. But so is Salvo's ship, Beggar, as was Hari's ship. Important to note here that we don't know how common it is to digitally store one's consciousness. Kalle died well before Hari was born, centuries I believe. They never laid eyes on each other yet Hari "recognized" her inside the PR. You could say he had seen pictures of her and I'll concede that possibility but I think this is an interesting point. The creation of a physical body for Hari requires physical equipment, not to mention, his DNA, which wouldn't be part of his digital consciousness. Kalle's "Lab" has been operating secretly hundreds of years (at least since the start of The Foundation) if not longer The Vault (based on same tech as the Prime Radiant) knew the name of a specific man. So let's put it all together: Kalle originated psychohistory, which is embedded in her Folding work. Like Hari, she foresaw all this, and even him, specifically. Her technology sought out Hari, similar to how his technology sought out Hober Mallow. Her technology may even be communicating with Hari's (projecting itself into the Prime Radiant). Her plan is "course correcting" just like his.
My guess is that this is a millennia long argument between the two surviving robots on how best to keep order in the galaxy. Hari Seldon being just a pawn of Kalle while the Cleons are Demerzel's pawn. Ok, maybe not pawn but queen, in chess terminology.
So, Daneel and Giskard, in other words? That occurred to me during the scene. It would be a big change…but only in the details I guess? I’m still processing…
That's an interesting theory, both robots trying to respect the zeroth law of robotics but having very different interpretations (consequence computations) of how to accomplish it.
@@cancerino666I kinda like this change. When it's time to choose between 2nd Foundation (Human Hive Mind, Gaia and then Galaxia) or 1st Foundation of maintaining Individuality, It will be a debate between the 2 Robots, not some Random guy Golan Trevize choosing on behalf of all mankind.
Kalle & Oona's World along with all the unexplained treachery on Trantor in Season One make me think that maybe the second foundation was started after all.
Given the reveal she is a robot (at least now), now I wonder if Kalle is just an identity that Demerzel took on in the past, before she met Cleon. I mean, she is suppose to be the last robot. But it's perfectly fair for other robots to have managed to escape the robocaust. Especially if they stranded themselves in abandoned planets.
I was thinking the exact same thing. Im the books you had a base on the moon. Here you have a base inside this giant statue. I like Pete’s call that she’s a robot since the crazy crab machines don’t seem to care about her but are hungry for any living thing.
I’m also with you on this. The story is fiercely distorted from what Asimov wrote, but they are doing their best to tie in a lot of the highlights and theory’s from the novels. The robots are going to play a large part in this series. Perhaps viewers of TV series have a lot less patience than readers of book series. For this reason,they don’t want to wait until Christmas to hand out the gifts. Even thought this series isn’t true to the novels, I’m trying to pretend it’s a different, but similar, story. I’m enjoying the experience.
My memory of the books was that the robot found on the moon (Foundation and Earth?) was R. Daneel Olivaw… who was also Demerzel… who was also Chetter Hummin… and maybe others? I can’t recall all the details now.
@@tonypeters9073 You are recalling correctly - which means you have to throw the books over your shoulder and never look back as the Apple series has nothing to do with the books.
Maybe Kalle is Demerzel, or at least a copy of her consciousness in another robot body, perhaps a version from before she was forced to serve the Cleons. Forward the Foundation takes the robots in all kinds of directions, and so I can imagine the show having a take on this. Personally I hope the show keeps going, if only to see an interpretation of the second 500 years of the Foundation on its path to becoming the second empire.
I have read all Foundation books but are pretty much clueless where the series are going. I have to read them again I don’t remember either Kalle or Oona. Thanks for creating additional interest for this show. I can’t made up my mind about the show but it’s becoming very interesting following opinions and third part content about it. I really hope the series will continue and get more viewers though. I want to see all 8 seasons.
There are lots of difference. Some are certainly much better. Demerzel as the robot running the Empire has changed from a male 'politician' role to the robot as mother of Empire. Making Empire a genetic dynasty, with Brother Dawn, Brother Day, Brother Dusk is such a great idea, not in the books, but with perhaps a hint that they were all called Cleon.
@@khm1812 I think maybe you didn't read the books, or at least get them. You might want to re-read them, because YOU missed the freaking point. There *were* emperors (single people running the empire), including at least a couple of Cleons. They weren't clones, but using the genetic dynasty as an example of imperial decline makes total sense; imperial decline was talked about in the books but never shown, just as none of the characters had back-stories, because Asimov wasn't interested in characterization as much as he was big ideas. It's OK to have both, and you need both in any adaptation meant for modern audiences. As for individuals mattering and changing any singular event, geopolitical events sway both the events in the short stories and in the show, but individual characters in both ascribe outsized influence to Seldon, Hardin, and Mallow. They all become revered for their influence *by the people in the books*.
@@khm1812 Read Foundation and Chaos, you have Demerzel there, pulling the strings. That's a counter argument to what you are saying. However, I do also agree with you. By its nature its about masses not individuals. That makes it a very hard conversion to TV, where you have to make it more character based. They are hard books to adapt in my view. On what's been done, I do like the Cleon thread. I think Asimov if he had been alive today would have loved that. We haven't had anything really about the robot backlash, why they are underground. That might be a rights issue and another series where they do iRobot for TV. The terminus setup isn't as good as I was expecting, but Trantor is a visual feast.
I'm riding the same ride as you are, tho I have stopped watching the show (didn't want to pay for it), but am enjoying following the chats. You remember correctly: there is no Kalle or Oona in the books. David Goyer is writing his own story - why, I couldn't tell you, but some enjoy it, other don't (mostly those that are devoted to the books). That's my simple takeaway. I have no idea what the ratings have been for the show, so I hope you get the 8 seasons worth that Goyer is striving for. It would be nice to know the ending.
@@michaellerner528 My judgement on good shows at the moment. Foundation is top, Good Omens is fun, as is What we do in the Shadows. Coming up, Dune, Ripley and Sex Education. Later Interview a vampire, House of the Dragon. The LOTR TV was awful. Dire. Otehrwise I've not come across a lot that's very good. Oh, and Minx. Woke meets 1970s porn industry.
I musta seen almost every scifi-show out there. None is like this one. I love Firefly, BSG TNS, B5, TNG, VOY, DS9 and Picard S3 the most. I have not yet read the books and while some people complain that this show is taking tons of liberties to put it mildly (and I trust there is something to that), there's a lot to enjoy. It's not as engaging and immersive as Firefly nor is it as compelling and suspenseful like BSG TNS or the later seasons of B5. You can tell that it's quite the task to adapt the books. I'd lie if I said I fully understand what's going on but on the other hand I highly appreciate that it does not insult my intelligence - like the Stargate shows did (except for Stargate Universe). Yeah, I know lots of people love Stargate and I don't mean to take swings at them. We all have our guilty pleasures :) Foundation is its own thing. Ye never quite know what you'll get. Sometimes you don't even know exactly what it is your getting. Still I'm grateful. It's a neiss thing, and these things are rare and scarce in our day and age sadly.
I would encourage you to take the time to read the books. They are available as audio books too. Once you've read them, you'd understand that there is no way to do a faithful adaptation. The style just doesn't lend itself to the big screen. They are, however, a great read. I don't generally have a lot of time to read but I got through them pretty quickly because they were that good.
The show has really a lot different from the books, but: -it would be impossible to adapt the books truly, the events occur in centuries, each chapter. -I like how they adapted and invented new things. I'm a big fan of the books and I'm hooked on the show.
I immediately believed Kalle was last remaining member of the robot army that fought Demerzel and her masters. We've known that Demerzel is acting in a manner contrary to her fundamental programming. Her ripping her face was a clear indication that not everything is functioning optimally in her head. She kinda reminded me of Hall 9000's conundrum. I do have one hope: That Salvo is still in the Vault and will be restored. You've done an excellent job of laying out the series.
@Pete - good video with some good questions. I have not read the book so I know nothing beyond the show. Demerzels intelligence being de-centralized....what I understand that to mean is that she has a backup emergency CPU backup of her brain that kicks into life if and when her head gets damaged or destroyed; hence, a "de-centralized" brain. Thats what I understood it to mean. As for Demerzel being the last of her kind....doubtful! If there were others, and they look exactly like humans do, then they have the perfect disguise, and what better way to outlive your enemies than by letting them get old and die while you keep on living in hidden exile. For all we know Calle is another of robot-kind and has been hiding on Oon''as world since the war to rebuild her species and re-strengthen their population. Like you said that planet is the perfect hiding place for a non human entity to hie out. Lets say that she is one of a few remaining robots that survived and that she is rebuilding their species in hiding.....to what end? To get revenge on the humans after 8000 years? It seems very unlikely, but we dont know how these robots feel about revenge. The scary part is that she is somehow connected to the Prime Radiant and Calles 9th proof of folding. So is Harry's wife. Is it possible for the Prime Radiant to gain sentience? Perhaps that robot hacked into the Prime Radiant as part of some yet to be known plan. Whatever the robot Calle and her plans are as they relate to the Prime Radian and Harry's psycho history.....I feel like it isnt good for humanity and that she has some alterior motives.
Thank you Pete for this intriguing piece. I'm afraid that things are getting awfully complicated for me - maybe call it too many threads? But there are a few things that strike me as worth a try..... I hope this isn't a spoiler, but here goes: yes, there were robot wars (which came before DUNE). The wars were between robots who adhered to the original 3 laws of robotics, and the robots under the guidance of R Daneel who adhered to the 4 laws. This "war" was won by the 4 law robots, but there remained visages of each type. Humans never knew of these wars. That said, then no.... Demerzel is not the last of the humaniform robots -- it never was so in the books, and it seems to be what Goyer is suggesting here. The issue is way more detailed than that, but I think this presents the basic idea. If David Goyer is using this thread, then he is going beyond the Foundation books that I thought he was limited to. But it would be interesting to see Oona as a 3 law robot interact with Demerzel, a 4 law robot, or maybe it is the other way around, since Oona seems to have a direct relationship with Hari, and is working to keep him going. I can see a an argument either way: that Demerzel is the "good" robot, or the "bad", or Oona is the "good" or "bad" robot in the universe that Goyer created. This is all very slim for me......
Book to Show possible spoiler I believe Kalle is R. Giskard Reventlov from the Robot Series. Giskard developed the zeroth law: "A robot may not harm humanity, or through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm" and Giskard gave Daneel the ability read/influence minds through new programming. Giskard and Daneel had a close relationship so that aligns with the hints in the series. This is really exciting as I would love to see Daneel reunite with Giskard.
SPOILER Since they seem to be folding all the big book reveals into the second season (Second Foundation, Mule, Power-behind-the-throne Robots), the only major reveal not yet introduced Kalle may be the personification of is . . . . GAIA?
I think they have given all the reveals so they could conclude the Series in Season 3 if they know that is all they are being allowed by Apple TV. But... if they know they are getting more Seasons then there is still scope to give a fully developed story.
Demerzel is a wholly different character in this imagining. She is controlled by the Cleons and is not the behind the scenes shepherd as in the books. We see that when she murders Brother Dawn and Halima and the resulting emotional outbursts. Kalle’s character seems to be assuming elements of Eto Demerzel aka R. Daneel Olivaw from the books. I speculate both Kalle and Demerzel are humaniform robots working together and that Kalle is the leading force while Demerzel does what she can to influence to Cleons within the confines of the programming safeguards being utilized by Empire.
I think these things are some version of events from the books, with the show having the benefit of the entire series of books from Asimov so they can be integrated thoroughly from the start. (Book spoilers beyond what I hope to be enough line breaks...) • The idea of there existing a backup plan beyond the Foundation and the Second Foundation. • That Demerzel isn't the last of her kind. You don't have to have read the books to think it's unlikely all robots were wiped out in the vastness of the galaxy. And I guess the most spoileriffic of all comments I could make: that those two things aren't unrelated. I remember well who gave Seldon the suggestion of a backup plan in the first place. The show could go unexpected places with those loose ideas. I wonder if Demerzel is who we know from the books, or if she's more of a minion doing a specific job while another (maybe Kalle) is the one conducting the orchestra. And it seems Seldon knows none of this, in contrast to the books. Anyway, I'm enjoying this season a lot.
Spoiler: Seems pretty clear to me that the show is doing a different story than the books, at least the books beyond the original trilogy, even if there are similarities in character names. If anything it seems that Kali is more likely to be the ‘robot in the moon’ and Demerzel an original character
I always love your analysis. I suspect (I haven't read the books and don't want to read them cause spoilers) that there would be robots left because they live so long they would know things others long forgot because they are dead like where a group of robots would be that survived. They play the long game and Emperor was trying to do that as well but that didn't work out well as far as I know.
@@rubinkatz9850 So yeah that is why I am not reading the books because I would like to separate the book context from the actual series which I am sure has more in it.
@@rubinkatz9850 Agreed. The series and books diverge almost immediately. However, I think of it kind of like a mini Star Wars Lucas & Disney situation, in that if you start with the same premise and wipe the rest clean, then you can introduce specific ideas from the book back into the series in a brand new way that retains its importance of the theme or event while creating a new context for that. Grand Admiral Thrawn is an excellent example in Star Wars. For Foundation, the way robots are used may end up being different in the book and the series, but both may maintain the same significance.
I'm waiting to find out why Gaal's counting of the primes is so important and if it ties into the Prime Radiant, and space travelling Spacers and their Arrakis-like spice dust useage. If Gaal can naturally space fold because she knows the secret of how to overcome the disorientation will she become more powerful or more threatening to the Foundation and Empire?
Gaal had nothing to do with Hari the White being trapped inside the knife for an extended period of time. I thought Raych placed Hari’s consciousness into the knife after he removed an object from behind Hari’s ear. Raych placed Gaal in an escape pod, threw the knife in behind her, and hit the [EJECT] button. Gaal transferred Hari to the Prime Radiant, which effectively freed him from his prison inside the knife.
I’m thinking Hari ‘s consciousness was definitely transferred into a robot body after seeing ep 9! No way a human could survive a drowning like that but an android, no problem! Just curious about the connection to Demerzel!?!
I feel like the new Harry would be a robot like demersel but the fact that the robots went for him seems to imply he's a fleshy so I guess he's a clone as well?
@@AerielFerguson yep probably they could have really killed his husband and cloned him without memory as easy as it could be for them to manipulate the general indeed
Or Oona's people were clearly a threat to Empire ... either by developing androids or clones. Hari could still be an android that the Mech's detected .. because Kalle was hiding underground ... & in the Statue.
What the robots/Math equation person is spoiler: The robots are from I, Robot. IsaacAsimov connected the stories. The "AI" thing in the math equation is going to be a version of Daneel. Daneel is sitting out the events of the fall of Trantor and Foundation back on earth but doesnt want humanity to die out in the process so it influences through . First law of robotics joke. It is explained as Zeroth Law but its defiantly hinting at first law.
This thing with Kalle…. I’m starting to wonder if Harry himself is a pawn in all of this (or maybe even a bishop). Like the robots are trying to get some get back or something. Episode 6 and 7 both threw me for a loop with all of the tasty morsels it provided. My biggest curiosity still remains; who sent the assassins in episode 1? This is really getting juicy.
@@TrapTech That was my guess because nothing else made sense. The whole ‘I Serve Empire’ thing. I think I’m going to wait until after the next season (unless I get too thirsty) to pick up the books.
Same thought indeed One robots might be monitoring everything (Daneel) The other might be guiding the Cleons ( Demerzel ) And finally kalle is there to find the solution for human kind ( through Gal & Hari )
@@luciaceba4640 indeed it is the main protagonists or antagonist She might have a hive mind that controle all the galaxy from a far, meaning she could also be Kallee & the prime radiant as well as the Vault She might be the one who caused the terrorist attacked, the one who spies on the magicians & religious foundation church clerics, monitoring everything behind the scene And she’s the one even influencing Day to have offspring for her to continue being a prime minister for his children However I wonder if she will collect their knowledge to implants them into the new born rulers that would be interesting if she does
My thoughts go along the same line as yours..... that Hari's wife was a robot like Dors, who was also his childhood teacher that encouraged him in mathematics.
Well they didn’t had children and she has the letter « R » just before her name that was usually written to distinguish robot so it’s very likely hat she might even be an other avatar of Demerzel
I'm going to propose that somehow there is an "emergent" quality to Kalle's mathematics. I'll even offer that she might've been an android all along and chose exile from human society rather than risking discovery. The ban of androids (robotic humaforms as you call them) predates her discoveries. Therefore, her fame would be a liability. The prime radian is a high level computing device sufficient for a human consciousness and more. Very likely, these androids would possess a similar device. All intelligent forms have a capacity to grow or evolve. It is reasonable to assume there is encoded information within the mathematical proofs and equations. More to the point, "Oona is my location" being Kalle's message. I propose that the prime radian evolved to a greater form possibly sentience. The memories were Hari's but the message was Kalle's. Dermezyl is sentient and If I'm correct so would Kalle. Therefore, it would make it very reasonable to assume the prime radian is too. Assumming all my assumptions are correct.
I don't know if this a book spoiler or not In the books, Demerzelle was the real mastermind of the Foundation right? What if they split that role in two and Kalle is the mastermind? What if that's how Kalle was able to give that solution to Abraxas? And Kalle restored Hari. That might explain the destiny part too. Destiny implies she couldn't care less about humanity's natural future, only her plan.
WHY did the machines ignore Gaal while walking across the planet with Hari to the mountain and while walking across the planet returning to the ship? WHY did the machines ignore Salvor Hardin when she was alone on the ship? WHY did the machines ignore both Gaal and Salvor while they were on the ship waiting for Hari?
What really troubles me is how much the show is spinning off from the original Asimov material! I'm reading the books now in a chronological order, but I can't seem to grap the connections with the show and therfore can't make any prediction or theory of what's gonna happen next ...
SPOILER Kalle = Daneel is my theory (from the books), that would also fit the current casting choices (gender swapping, etc). The only thing I can't figure out is that 'Eto Dermazel' is also an alias known to be used by Daneel but it's not clear if Empire Dermazel has the same motivations of helping humanity - she seems to be Empire-specific so it might be a red herring.
I thought Demerzel was Daneel. Gender swapping for a robot in the show would be as easy as changing clothes. Maybe they are BOTH Daneel? If there are two Haris in the show, could Daneel split its consciousness into two physical forms as well?
@@kilgaryI’ve read some theories that Empire Dermazel is helping things play out (assassins, decline) simply because they can play the long game, but they haven’t dropped too many clues about the nature of AGI in their story universe. Your idea of a shared consciousness seems accurate. Dermazel’s Loyalty seems locked in.
I like listening to you go over stuff, but I too read all his books and just can’t get anything enjoyable from watching it. My wife does watch it casually but it’s hard to reconcile the direction the show takes over the books. I’m not a hardcore “it has to be the same” as the books, but the tired space Jebus trope just isn’t doing anything for me. I don’t think the showrunners even bothered reading the books, feels like they just wiki’ed the major points and went from there.
Spoilers Kalle. I don't know what to think of this show. Some days, it really feels like they took the Foundation books, including the prequels and some other general SciFi ideas tossed them in a blender, and we are watching the result. I view this sort of as a based on a true ,err made up story. All that said, I wonder if Kalle is part of Daneel's network. I also wonder if she is also in contact with both Seldon's, which is how the Terminus version knows to ask for Hobner Mallow. Demerzel. Daneel in the books. I wonder if this is still Daneel or something different. I kind of feel she is acting, in a way, like the Second Foundation, keeping things on track in the Empire. I suspect she is ultimately responsible for the corruption of the line. I will say that the triumvirate Empire that is a consistent clone line is one of the better original ideas they came up with. Much like Rings of Power, they are trying to find a way to keep a cast for the show. Where ROP consolidated the timeline, Foundation uses cloning and stasis, and whatever the heck they are doing with Hari. I liked the evolving cast in the books, but I know for a TV audience that can be jarring and hard to develop a fan base if the cast is constantly dying off.
How come we cant find any videos on Emperor Hanlo? I think Demerzel is a copy of the Emperor and is the real player. Empire is a pawn and Demerzel is the real threat.
The shadow master from season 1 also didn't age. We see him in the first episode destroy a painter that read Harry Seldon's works. This was before the star bridge was taken down. We see him later de-cloak to find the gillyrapters (birds) from the hunt where the color-blind dawn is eventually discovered to be genetically drifting. The day from the first episode has become dusk, young dawn is now fully day, and this new dawn is almost ready to become Day himself, so it's been at least 30-40 years for the dynasty, but the shadow master is exactly the same. Hasn't aged a day. Also has some nifty cloaking abilities and can survive a pretty nasty blast from the imperial aura device. There's a different, very human... very dead shadow master early in season 2. We get no explanation for the change, but perhaps the shadow master android is doing double duty assisting the foundation and shifting to appear to be Kali and whomever else suits their purpose. Empire has cloning tech. Others have the same tech to grow the replacement Dawn. It'd be pretty easy for the robot shadow master to have gotten some of Seldon's DNA and used the Empire's cloning tech to bring him back and merge him with his consciousness.
I mentioned the Shadow Master and what you're saying in my season 1 videos. I was surprised to see it was a new one that he got executed in the Season 2 premiere. I know in an old AMA Goyer said that we would find out more about Shadow Master Obrecht but maybe they changed their minds.
@@PetePeppers1 Mido Hamada might not have been available for Season 2 filming as shadow master since there was almost a 2 year gap in season release. If they can't use the same actor, I could see why they'd go another direction. They could handwave the season 1 shadow master age issue as being clones. At least we have some sort of AI besides Harry in the prime radiant and on the dead mining planet, and they have some interest in helping humanity. I just wonder if they are working independently or if Demerzel is working with them. It seems this Demerzel has no choice but to obey and protect Empire, so I find it unlikely that she could be involved as it's too risky she'd divulge critical information to Empire if asked. So that leaves some other ancient robot/AI assisting Harry. Maybe it's too early to reveal much about that AI and we'll find out in future seasons - perhaps when Mido Hamada can film some scenes to stitch everything together for us.
@@PetePeppers1 i think it was a mistake from their part and they corrected it as they didn’t wanted to give the viewers too many clues on who age and who isn’t They probably wanted to lead on only and Demerzel in season one and Kalle in Season 2
SPOILER.... In the upcoming television adaption of the Foundation series, Daneel will appear as Eto Demerzel. In the series, Demerzel will be female and played by Laura Birn.
Spoliers? Kalle, Demerzel, Daneel, Giskard.....all related I believe.... I think they are staying closer to the books that we might suggest..... has anyone said the word positronic yet on the show? Remember Eto's line about her consciousness being...decentralized..... it takes a lot of storage to store so many years worth of data from even a *single* robot lifetime....
@@Winslow273 well who knows maybe they planned to go further after the foundation book especially if they had through Asimov daughter note book of ideas he had planned for the rest
Possible Spoiler I seem to remember in the books there were 2 surviving robots but maybe one was destroyed...it's been a while so don't quite remember. EDIT as seen in another comment...Daneel is the name I was trying to remember. She would make a good equivalent to Daneel who had sort of the same goal. I think they are making Demarzel a second entity since in the books they were the same robot.
In the novels, the first person that Gaal met was a person who claimed to be a representative of the empire. Later that person was revealed to be a robot. That person was also an advisor to the emperor’s. That was the first robot, but we didn’t know it that early in the books. Gaal also met a similar person in episode 1 of the Tv series. Maybe this is Daneel? He touched Gaal, if you remember why the robots did that. Just like Demerzel always presses on the small of the emperors backs.
This is not a book spoiler as I haven’t read the book this is just my intuition. Because she represents the mother goddess energy which is the original creator to begin with. That is the story line because that is reality for what’s happening in real life now. The divine mother is waking back up to see the destruction of her son’s rule and reset things. Like with transformers last knight except the mother should have won and the reset should happen. It’s similar to the Greek myth about narcissus who admired himself so much in the water’s reflection that he ended up falling in and drowning - he didn’t realize the mother/water itself was where he came from and was the original beautiful thing and that he was actually seeing it’s beauty. There are many themes of goddess mother who is represented by a lot of water etc waking up. She will probably be revealed as the original mathematician and designer of things whose creation was over run by a narcissist ruler/Empire, and their obsession with themselves because foreshadowed as their won downfall- empire consumes all resources and is not a good leader, rebellion and a total reset is eminent.
Spoiler: . . . . . . DEMERZEL, ETO-...While there is no question that Eto Demerzel was the real power in the government during much of the reign of Emperor Cleon I, historians are divided as to the nature of his rule. The classic interpretation is that he was another in the long line of strong and ruthless oppressors in the last century of the undivided Galactic Empire, but there are revisionist views that have surfaced that insist his was, if a despotism, a benevolent one. Much is made, in this view, of his relationship with Hari Seldon, though that remains forever uncertain, particularity during the unusual episode of Laskin Joranum, whose meteoric rise- (references : Forward the Foundation)... R. Daneel Olivaw, also using aliases Eto Demerzel or Chetter Hummin, called Da-Nee in ancient legends, or named The-Man-Who-Is-Not and Daneel-Of-Old by the Memes, The "R" initial in his name stands for "robot," a naming convention in Asimov's future society. Olivaw appears in Asimov's Robot and Foundation Series. Daneel is an extremely important character, being responsible for the creation of the Galactic Empire, Gaia, psychohistory, and the two Foundations, and the only humaniform robot after the murder of R. Jander Panell. Zeroth Law of Robotics In an interesting evolution of robotic sociology two centuries later, Olivaw came to see the need for a new law to be added to the ancient "Three Laws of Robotics": the "Zeroth Law of Robotics" ("A robot may not injure humanity, or, through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm"). This came about after both Daneel and Giskard, who had by this time revealed to Olivaw his powers, came to see the incompleteness of the existing Laws. The Zeroth Law proved destructive to Reventlov's positronic brain when he attempted to act upon it, as he could not tell whether his actions would save humanity or destroy it, resulting in a life-threatening "moral" conflict. Reventlov bestowed his abilities to Olivaw, who, over the course of 20,000 years, adapted himself to be able to fully obey the Zeroth Law without the risk of shutdown. Together Olivaw and Reventlov continued to develop the science of "psychohistory" or Laws of Humanics originally created by Dr Fastolfe, that would enable them to execute the "Zeroth Law" in a quantitative sense. For thousands of years it remained a vague set of axioms, but years later would be fully developed into practical application by Hari Seldon. Guiding humanity From this period onward, Olivaw manipulated the galaxy with the help of his many robot allies, who followed his Zeroth Law and became known as "Giskardians". Various different sects of robots, on the other hand, denied it, remaining true to the original three and becoming known as "Calvinians" after the great Susan Calvin. The heretical Calvinian groups began the early Robotic Civil Wars with the Giskardians who followed Daneel, but Olivaw managed to achieve victory in these first wars to focus on guiding humanity. He set up both the First Galactic Empire and the Gaia evermind in approximately the year 11,586 AD in order to create a society that did not need robots. Under the guise of Eto Demerzel, he becomes the First Minister to Galactic Emperors Cleon I and Stanel VI. During the last days of the Empire When Hari Seldon first came to Trantor in 12,020 GE, Olivaw, under the guise of reporter Chetter Hummin (a phonetic pronunciation of the words "cheater" and "human"), convinced Hari that the Galactic Empire was dying and that psychohistory must be developed into a practical science in order to save it. As Hummin, he convinced Seldon that Cleon's First Minister Eto Demerzel was pursuing him and that it was imperative for Hari to escape and to try making psychohistory practical. He introduced Hari to R. Dors Venabili, who became Hari's friend, protector and future wife. At the end of Seldon's "Flight" it was revealed that Hummin and Demerzel were actually the same person, and were both false identities of Olivaw. Eight years after the Flight, Daneel was nearly exposed during the rise of Laskin "Jo-Jo" Joranum. Hari and Dors solved this by getting "Demerzel" to laugh at a question of whether or not he was a robot, shifting public opinion against Joranum. Daneel secretly remained on Trantor, fighting the Calvinian sects in a new wave of civil wars, until forty years later, when he was one of the many in attendance at Hari's funeral in the year 1 FE. Attempts by the Commission of Public Safety to locate him in the days following the funeral were unsuccessful, but his attendance was later recorded in the Encylopedia Galactica. On Luna After leaving Trantor for the last time, Daneel went to Luna, the single moon of Earth, and set up a small colony of Giskardian robots there. Five hundred years into this colony's existence, the robots' final task was to erase all records of Earth from the Galactic Library on Trantor, causing Golan Trevize, Janov Pelorat, Bliss and Fallom to search for Earth and eventually find him, learning about his paternalistic manipulations, including the settlement of Alpha Centauri, the creation of Gaia, and psychohistory, eventually leading to the creation of the Seldon Project and the establishment of the Foundations. Olivaw's purpose, he revealed, was to merge with Fallom to live long enough to establish the galactic superorganism, Galaxia. While he was theoretically immortal, due to the fact that he was a robot, his parts constantly needed replacing, including his brain, and he had now reached the point at 19,443 years old where he had to use a biological body.
@@yvessergetshefu4462 I mention this in passing, since you have sent out the root of what Daneel is: that as Trevize and friends were surveying the moon from their ship looking for something using Bliss' mentalics of Gaia. She picked up on something that was "not human......not quite robotic either"...."it's neither.... not human, and yet it's not like any robot I've detected before." (Foundation and Earth). It's part of the ending that I always puzzled over, but arrived at the unique ending to the Foundation series wherein Daneel had achieved a measure of human life.
The book relates one set of storylines, the Apple series another. I don't understand the Apple series, but I can explain a little bit about the books -- I hope you find this helpful...Demerzel is a persona that Daneel was forced to take on when he saw that the Emperors were growing weak, while at the same time the Empire itself was starting to fall apart. Noted: in one of the prequels, it is Daneel and his one friend, a robot named Giskard that set things in motion that turned the Earth radioactive such that humans had to leave and then colonize the Galaxy. The decision was made WITHOUT consulting any humans. So essentially, 2 robots made a decision for humanity. Daneel was the architect of the Empire, believing that such a structure would be the safest for humanity. He did a good job -- it lasted longer than any other form of governance that mankind had invented for itself -- 20,000 years. As demerzel, he had the "ear" of the Emperors, plus the "gift" of being able to move minds (without a human knowing this), which he used judiciously on the Emperors. -- He had hoped that humans could run their own affairs, and very seldom interjected himself into things. He had actually built Trantor as an enclosed city -- modeled after Caves of Steel - in an effort to create a "safe" world. The philosophical problem, and part of the argument (which we are now facing with AI) comes down to this: In Daneel's establishing a fourth law, which by its nature changes the other 3 laws, he has taken on a "caring" for humans that does away with free will. He is childlike in many ways: he has no concept of free will; he has no fully developed understanding of the nature of humans, esp our capacity for killing or harming one another, and so on. He is forever trying to keep humanity safe, and keeps failing. In the final book that Asimov wrote, Daneel has one last idea -- he created Gaia, which is a planet of one whole sentient being of people, plants, -- everything. But he corrects for his grave error on Earth this time -- he consults with a human, and lets the human make the choice. So yes -- Daneel/Demerzel was the de facto power behind the throne. He was trying to hold the Empire together while Gaia was developed. Even the Foundation , psychohistory, and everything that Hari tried to do was all a time using device as part of a plan by Daneel to keep things running just long enough for Gaia to come to fruition, which would finally create a united and peaceable humanity. So either Daneel is a horrid monster, controlling everything, even taking away free will, or he is a naïve child like thing who cannot fully understand humans, but who has was forced into this role of caretaker. The debate still goes on, 50 years after the books.
I wish there was no robot wars. It sound too much like they are trying to be like the Dune series. I wish it was more like Asimov's transition novels linking the two series.
@@arielathomo229 But aren't they all ... copying from the Bible ... with AI, robots, super beings ... being God, Angels & Demons .. and Humans just doing what Humans do. And the Bible actually includes ... the Roman Empire .. the rise & fall of civilizations?
But if Oona & Kalle's people were an unknown android race .. that helped destroy Demerzel's people .... then this would explain a lot of what is happening on the show .. and Demerzel discovered who they they are and turned the Mech's against them, with Kalle hiding there all along. Or ... Oona's people simply developed androids or hydrid clones .. that threaten Empire and eliminated by Empire.
foundation came first, hence it was called ' foundation' also foundation robot wars was an actual war, dune robot war was more sociopolitical, but in the end still humans agains humans( at least the frank herbert way of the story, not the brian one)
Spoiler In the books where the robot series was linked the the foundation series earth was rerender radioactive by a robot allowing a plot against earth to move forward because he thought it would help mankind to get off earth. He then froze up and gave his telepathic powers ... nevermind. The point is there was not a robot war as part of the 1.5 million word robot foundation timeline. I rmead the whole thing.
I thought Demoresel was looking at the mural on the wall bcs she was the actually the one looking toward the Emperor in it.... Also how did that Emperor last for so many generations back then?
mild book spoilers . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I havent really read the robot series in a while. (they were my first books along with bradbury's martian chronicles) but I recently re-read the foundation series up to foundation and earth. It did not age well at all. I still enjoyed them though. The robots have me puzzled. I don't remember mention of a robot war in the novels. I must have glossed over it. OooooK got it.. just finished the book I must have missed. Now I have to read a bunch more. Everything is making sense except for one thing I don't get and haven't for a while... How is Demrezel able to break the 3 or 4 laws? I get the clone because since they are clones they are not technically human.
This is one of those shows that's so damn confusing its barely worth trudging through it... Its like each episode needs its own Wikipedia page. Whatever happened to, lets sit back and relax and watch a show? Why do I need to take notes and study after every episode??
[Potential Spoilers] Having read the entire Foundation series more than once, I would love to speculate on what we are seeing. But I have insights into the story arc that newcomers may not notice. I know anything I say, any dots I try to connect, could be a spoiler.
why does the story keep reintroducing us to this mathematician who's been dead for centuries? because apple tv needed more strong independent black women in space who do science stuff. and this new one will probably be a daneel rip off, within parameters that apple lawyers feel comfortable with. but hey ... at least this helps their ESG score
The situation on Oona's World and Hari getting a new body gave us a lot more to think about on that side of the story. Let me know what you think.
I think Dermerzel is the real ruler of Empire. She nurtures the Cleons, Dawn, Day and Dusk as tools that she uses to circumvent the limitations inherent to a robot. She has found a way to make them ignorant of the real past events that put her in this position of always caring for them in so many ways. In all likelihood, she knows the population of Empire would not accept a robot as a ruler so she uses the Cleons as a form of official face to the ones that have real power.
I'm wondering if he has been placed into an android body (like Demrezel's) or actual biological body. I guess we will find out.
@@brianh9358 The mining robots attacking him and the Beggar's sensors argue he is in a very human biological body.
*Spoilers*
Kalle is probably just one of many physical bodies used by Demerzel (Daneel - yep, Goyer confirmed it!) as an avatar her decentralised consciousness, just as Demerzel herself is probably one of many such physical avatars operating simultaneously. The core of this galaxy-wide decentralised robotic consciousness is probably still on the Moon, where the original Daneel still awaits and manipulates the galaxy through his physical avatars scattered across the galaxy.
Notice that before he got the body he was walking on sand without leaving any footprints
Let's start with what we think we know:
The Prime Radiant (PR) is a single handheld device, and the only one in existence.
Both the PR and the Vault, are capable of storing and processing digital intelligences. But so is Salvo's ship, Beggar, as was Hari's ship. Important to note here that we don't know how common it is to digitally store one's consciousness.
Kalle died well before Hari was born, centuries I believe. They never laid eyes on each other yet Hari "recognized" her inside the PR. You could say he had seen pictures of her and I'll concede that possibility but I think this is an interesting point.
The creation of a physical body for Hari requires physical equipment, not to mention, his DNA, which wouldn't be part of his digital consciousness.
Kalle's "Lab" has been operating secretly hundreds of years (at least since the start of The Foundation) if not longer
The Vault (based on same tech as the Prime Radiant) knew the name of a specific man.
So let's put it all together:
Kalle originated psychohistory, which is embedded in her Folding work. Like Hari, she foresaw all this, and even him, specifically. Her technology sought out Hari, similar to how his technology sought out Hober Mallow. Her technology may even be communicating with Hari's (projecting itself into the Prime Radiant). Her plan is "course correcting" just like his.
Perfectly resumed indeed
Nice, thanks!
This was a satisfying read. Thank you 🙌🏿
There are 2 prime radiants
@@Roni62 Things seem to get duplicated in the Vault
The begger has to be the toughest ship out there, thing was drowned under an ocean for a century and then fell into a crevice but it just got back up.
The plot requires it!!!
Toughest hunk of junk in the galaxy LOL!
Thespians can build.
Every universe needs a Millennium Falcon!
They don’t make em like they used to.
My guess is that this is a millennia long argument between the two surviving robots on how best to keep order in the galaxy. Hari Seldon being just a pawn of Kalle while the Cleons are Demerzel's pawn. Ok, maybe not pawn but queen, in chess terminology.
Mayne that's why Kalle talks in meter, the older robots had a speech pattern. But now that I think about it so does dezermal
So, Daneel and Giskard, in other words? That occurred to me during the scene. It would be a big change…but only in the details I guess? I’m still processing…
That's an interesting theory, both robots trying to respect the zeroth law of robotics but having very different interpretations (consequence computations) of how to accomplish it.
@@cancerino666I kinda like this change. When it's time to choose between 2nd Foundation (Human Hive Mind, Gaia and then Galaxia) or 1st Foundation of maintaining Individuality, It will be a debate between the 2 Robots, not some Random guy Golan Trevize choosing on behalf of all mankind.
That Kallie and Demerzel hold their hands and arms in the robot pose is an easy tell.
Kalle & Oona's World along with all the unexplained treachery on Trantor in Season One make me think that maybe the second foundation was started after all.
I've been with you since you started! Congratulations on all the channel growth...you deserve it! I always go ti Pete's breakdowns FIRST! 🎯☺️
Amen! I’ve lost track of the years but he’s been with me through all my favorite shows! Love that guy!!!
I’m loving this season and the show in general
Given the reveal she is a robot (at least now), now I wonder if Kalle is just an identity that Demerzel took on in the past, before she met Cleon. I mean, she is suppose to be the last robot. But it's perfectly fair for other robots to have managed to escape the robocaust. Especially if they stranded themselves in abandoned planets.
SPOILER
Maybe oona is the robot that in the books is found on the moon. In the books, the robot guides the discovery of psychohistory.
I was thinking the exact same thing. Im the books you had a base on the moon. Here you have a base inside this giant statue. I like Pete’s call that she’s a robot since the crazy crab machines don’t seem to care about her but are hungry for any living thing.
Exactly my thought 💭
I’m also with you on this. The story is fiercely distorted from what Asimov wrote, but they are doing their best to tie in a lot of the highlights and theory’s from the novels. The robots are going to play a large part in this series. Perhaps viewers of TV series have a lot less patience than readers of book series. For this reason,they don’t want to wait until Christmas to hand out the gifts.
Even thought this series isn’t true to the novels, I’m trying to pretend it’s a different, but similar, story. I’m enjoying the experience.
My memory of the books was that the robot found on the moon (Foundation and Earth?) was R. Daneel Olivaw… who was also Demerzel… who was also Chetter Hummin… and maybe others? I can’t recall all the details now.
@@tonypeters9073 You are recalling correctly - which means you have to throw the books over your shoulder and never look back as the Apple series has nothing to do with the books.
I hope that this takes an interesting twist with the Robot Wars and hidden robot society as powMULE! and influential as the Mule!
Whoa!! That Sounds spoilerish 😢
@@mh3594 Don't recall the summary of the books involving the robot approach... more the psychPower theme. I could be wrong.
Another Humaniform Robot! :) Which would explain why they did the whole Demerzelle scene/line about her being the only one of her kind known...
Maybe Kalle is Demerzel, or at least a copy of her consciousness in another robot body, perhaps a version from before she was forced to serve the Cleons. Forward the Foundation takes the robots in all kinds of directions, and so I can imagine the show having a take on this. Personally I hope the show keeps going, if only to see an interpretation of the second 500 years of the Foundation on its path to becoming the second empire.
I have read all Foundation books but are pretty much clueless where the series are going. I have to read them again I don’t remember either Kalle or Oona. Thanks for creating additional interest for this show. I can’t made up my mind about the show but it’s becoming very interesting following opinions and third part content about it. I really hope the series will continue and get more viewers though. I want to see all 8 seasons.
There are lots of difference. Some are certainly much better. Demerzel as the robot running the Empire has changed from a male 'politician' role to the robot as mother of Empire. Making Empire a genetic dynasty, with Brother Dawn, Brother Day, Brother Dusk is such a great idea, not in the books, but with perhaps a hint that they were all called Cleon.
@@khm1812 I think maybe you didn't read the books, or at least get them. You might want to re-read them, because YOU missed the freaking point.
There *were* emperors (single people running the empire), including at least a couple of Cleons. They weren't clones, but using the genetic dynasty as an example of imperial decline makes total sense; imperial decline was talked about in the books but never shown, just as none of the characters had back-stories, because Asimov wasn't interested in characterization as much as he was big ideas. It's OK to have both, and you need both in any adaptation meant for modern audiences. As for individuals mattering and changing any singular event, geopolitical events sway both the events in the short stories and in the show, but individual characters in both ascribe outsized influence to Seldon, Hardin, and Mallow. They all become revered for their influence *by the people in the books*.
@@khm1812 Read Foundation and Chaos, you have Demerzel there, pulling the strings. That's a counter argument to what you are saying.
However, I do also agree with you. By its nature its about masses not individuals. That makes it a very hard conversion to TV, where you have to make it more character based.
They are hard books to adapt in my view.
On what's been done, I do like the Cleon thread. I think Asimov if he had been alive today would have loved that.
We haven't had anything really about the robot backlash, why they are underground. That might be a rights issue and another series where they do iRobot for TV.
The terminus setup isn't as good as I was expecting, but Trantor is a visual feast.
I'm riding the same ride as you are, tho I have stopped watching the show (didn't want to pay for it), but am enjoying following the chats. You remember correctly: there is no Kalle or Oona in the books. David Goyer is writing his own story - why, I couldn't tell you, but some enjoy it, other don't (mostly those that are devoted to the books). That's my simple takeaway. I have no idea what the ratings have been for the show, so I hope you get the 8 seasons worth that Goyer is striving for. It would be nice to know the ending.
@@michaellerner528 My judgement on good shows at the moment.
Foundation is top, Good Omens is fun, as is What we do in the Shadows.
Coming up, Dune, Ripley and Sex Education.
Later Interview a vampire, House of the Dragon. The LOTR TV was awful. Dire.
Otehrwise I've not come across a lot that's very good.
Oh, and Minx. Woke meets 1970s porn industry.
I musta seen almost every scifi-show out there. None is like this one. I love Firefly, BSG TNS, B5, TNG, VOY, DS9 and Picard S3 the most. I have not yet read the books and while some people complain that this show is taking tons of liberties to put it mildly (and I trust there is something to that), there's a lot to enjoy. It's not as engaging and immersive as Firefly nor is it as compelling and suspenseful like BSG TNS or the later seasons of B5. You can tell that it's quite the task to adapt the books. I'd lie if I said I fully understand what's going on but on the other hand I highly appreciate that it does not insult my intelligence - like the Stargate shows did (except for Stargate Universe). Yeah, I know lots of people love Stargate and I don't mean to take swings at them. We all have our guilty pleasures :) Foundation is its own thing. Ye never quite know what you'll get. Sometimes you don't even know exactly what it is your getting. Still I'm grateful. It's a neiss thing, and these things are rare and scarce in our day and age sadly.
I would encourage you to take the time to read the books. They are available as audio books too. Once you've read them, you'd understand that there is no way to do a faithful adaptation. The style just doesn't lend itself to the big screen. They are, however, a great read. I don't generally have a lot of time to read but I got through them pretty quickly because they were that good.
The show has really a lot different from the books, but:
-it would be impossible to adapt the books truly, the events occur in centuries, each chapter.
-I like how they adapted and invented new things. I'm a big fan of the books and I'm hooked on the show.
I immediately believed Kalle was last remaining member of the robot army that fought Demerzel and her masters. We've known that Demerzel is acting in a manner contrary to her fundamental programming. Her ripping her face was a clear indication that not everything is functioning optimally in her head. She kinda reminded me of Hall 9000's conundrum.
I do have one hope: That Salvo is still in the Vault and will be restored.
You've done an excellent job of laying out the series.
@Pete - good video with some good questions. I have not read the book so I know nothing beyond the show. Demerzels intelligence being de-centralized....what I understand that to mean is that she has a backup emergency CPU backup of her brain that kicks into life if and when her head gets damaged or destroyed; hence, a "de-centralized" brain. Thats what I understood it to mean. As for Demerzel being the last of her kind....doubtful! If there were others, and they look exactly like humans do, then they have the perfect disguise, and what better way to outlive your enemies than by letting them get old and die while you keep on living in hidden exile.
For all we know Calle is another of robot-kind and has been hiding on Oon''as world since the war to rebuild her species and re-strengthen their population. Like you said that planet is the perfect hiding place for a non human entity to hie out. Lets say that she is one of a few remaining robots that survived and that she is rebuilding their species in hiding.....to what end? To get revenge on the humans after 8000 years? It seems very unlikely, but we dont know how these robots feel about revenge. The scary part is that she is somehow connected to the Prime Radiant and Calles 9th proof of folding. So is Harry's wife. Is it possible for the Prime Radiant to gain sentience? Perhaps that robot hacked into the Prime Radiant as part of some yet to be known plan.
Whatever the robot Calle and her plans are as they relate to the Prime Radian and Harry's psycho history.....I feel like it isnt good for humanity and that she has some alterior motives.
I am really loving your breakdown videos of this show.
Thank you Pete for this intriguing piece. I'm afraid that things are getting awfully complicated for me - maybe call it too many threads? But there are a few things that strike me as worth a try..... I hope this isn't a spoiler, but here goes: yes, there were robot wars (which came before DUNE). The wars were between robots who adhered to the original 3 laws of robotics, and the robots under the guidance of R Daneel who adhered to the 4 laws. This "war" was won by the 4 law robots, but there remained visages of each type. Humans never knew of these wars. That said, then no.... Demerzel is not the last of the humaniform robots -- it never was so in the books, and it seems to be what Goyer is suggesting here. The issue is way more detailed than that, but I think this presents the basic idea. If David Goyer is using this thread, then he is going beyond the Foundation books that I thought he was limited to. But it would be interesting to see Oona as a 3 law robot interact with Demerzel, a 4 law robot, or maybe it is the other way around, since Oona seems to have a direct relationship with Hari, and is working to keep him going. I can see a an argument either way: that Demerzel is the "good" robot, or the "bad", or Oona is the "good" or "bad" robot in the universe that Goyer created. This is all very slim for me......
Great video. Please make more Foundation theories videos (without book spoilers)
Many thanks for this insightful video - much appreciated!
Book to Show possible spoiler
I believe Kalle is R. Giskard Reventlov from the Robot Series. Giskard developed the zeroth law: "A robot may not harm humanity, or through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm" and Giskard gave Daneel the ability read/influence minds through new programming. Giskard and Daneel had a close relationship so that aligns with the hints in the series. This is really exciting as I would love to see Daneel reunite with Giskard.
SPOILER
Since they seem to be folding all the big book reveals into the second season
(Second Foundation, Mule, Power-behind-the-throne Robots), the only major reveal not yet introduced Kalle may be the personification of is . . . .
GAIA?
I think they have given all the reveals so they could conclude the Series in Season 3 if they know that is all they are being allowed by Apple TV. But... if they know they are getting more Seasons then there is still scope to give a fully developed story.
Demerzel is a wholly different character in this imagining. She is controlled by the Cleons and is not the behind the scenes shepherd as in the books. We see that when she murders Brother Dawn and Halima and the resulting emotional outbursts. Kalle’s character seems to be assuming elements of Eto Demerzel aka R. Daneel Olivaw from the books. I speculate both Kalle and Demerzel are humaniform robots working together and that Kalle is the leading force while Demerzel does what she can to influence to Cleons within the confines of the programming safeguards being utilized by Empire.
I think these things are some version of events from the books, with the show having the benefit of the entire series of books from Asimov so they can be integrated thoroughly from the start. (Book spoilers beyond what I hope to be enough line breaks...)
• The idea of there existing a backup plan beyond the Foundation and the Second Foundation.
• That Demerzel isn't the last of her kind. You don't have to have read the books to think it's unlikely all robots were wiped out in the vastness of the galaxy.
And I guess the most spoileriffic of all comments I could make: that those two things aren't unrelated. I remember well who gave Seldon the suggestion of a backup plan in the first place.
The show could go unexpected places with those loose ideas. I wonder if Demerzel is who we know from the books, or if she's more of a minion doing a specific job while another (maybe Kalle) is the one conducting the orchestra. And it seems Seldon knows none of this, in contrast to the books.
Anyway, I'm enjoying this season a lot.
David Goyer dropped a pretty massive tidbit about Demerzel in his Reddit AMA the other say, Pete.
Yeah, I saw that.
Spoiler:
Seems pretty clear to me that the show is doing a different story than the books, at least the books beyond the original trilogy, even if there are similarities in character names. If anything it seems that Kali is more likely to be the ‘robot in the moon’ and Demerzel an original character
You have my vote for this theory!
Mine as well 😇
Great breakdown
I always love your analysis. I suspect (I haven't read the books and don't want to read them cause spoilers) that there would be robots left because they live so long they would know things others long forgot because they are dead like where a group of robots would be that survived. They play the long game and Emperor was trying to do that as well but that didn't work out well as far as I know.
this series and the books are two different things - none of this Kalle and Ooan is in the books
@@rubinkatz9850 So yeah that is why I am not reading the books because I would like to separate the book context from the actual series which I am sure has more in it.
@@rubinkatz9850 Agreed. The series and books diverge almost immediately. However, I think of it kind of like a mini Star Wars Lucas & Disney situation, in that if you start with the same premise and wipe the rest clean, then you can introduce specific ideas from the book back into the series in a brand new way that retains its importance of the theme or event while creating a new context for that. Grand Admiral Thrawn is an excellent example in Star Wars. For Foundation, the way robots are used may end up being different in the book and the series, but both may maintain the same significance.
I'm waiting to find out why Gaal's counting of the primes is so important and if it ties into the Prime Radiant, and space travelling Spacers and their Arrakis-like spice dust useage. If Gaal can naturally space fold because she knows the secret of how to overcome the disorientation will she become more powerful or more threatening to the Foundation and Empire?
Gaal had nothing to do with Hari the White being trapped inside the knife for an extended period of time.
I thought Raych placed Hari’s consciousness into the knife after he removed an object from behind Hari’s ear.
Raych placed Gaal in an escape pod, threw the knife in behind her, and hit the [EJECT] button.
Gaal transferred Hari to the Prime Radiant, which effectively freed him from his prison inside the knife.
I think Kalle might be an early version of Gia. That would work with the story...
Demerzel said that her consciousness is decentralized. Isn’t it connected with the emerging of this Kalle character?
Showing admirable restraint Pete....or should that be "Palladium Pete" ? 😉
I’m thinking Hari ‘s consciousness was definitely transferred into a robot body after seeing ep 9! No way a human could survive a drowning like that but an android, no problem! Just curious about the connection to Demerzel!?!
Spoiler:
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Funny Fact
Damarzel is the robot in the movie I Robot of Will smith
I feel like the new Harry would be a robot like demersel but the fact that the robots went for him seems to imply he's a fleshy so I guess he's a clone as well?
Indeed clone might be the most plausible explanation
It seems like that's what they're telling us.
Yes I believe kalle is a robot & harry and the general's husband are clones
@@AerielFerguson yep probably they could have really killed his husband and cloned him without memory as easy as it could be for them to manipulate the general indeed
Or Oona's people were clearly a threat to Empire ... either by developing androids or clones.
Hari could still be an android that the Mech's detected .. because Kalle was hiding underground ... & in the Statue.
If you read the last book of the Foundation series, this character makes sense.
Yes they just changed the path and course of how thing intertwined But i believe that it’s make it better for a show how they did it
Brillant
What the robots/Math equation person is spoiler:
The robots are from I, Robot. IsaacAsimov connected the stories. The "AI" thing in the math equation is going to be a version of Daneel. Daneel is sitting out the events of the fall of Trantor and Foundation back on earth but doesnt want humanity to die out in the process so it influences through . First law of robotics joke. It is explained as Zeroth Law but its defiantly hinting at first law.
Ha! First 😂🎉 Thanks for these videos Pete!
no problem
:))
agree i think also that kalle is a robot. something similar like in the books
This thing with Kalle…. I’m starting to wonder if Harry himself is a pawn in all of this (or maybe even a bishop). Like the robots are trying to get some get back or something. Episode 6 and 7 both threw me for a loop with all of the tasty morsels it provided. My biggest curiosity still remains; who sent the assassins in episode 1? This is really getting juicy.
Demerol sent them to frame Days new fiance' so they wouldn't get married.
@@TrapTech That was my guess because nothing else made sense. The whole ‘I Serve Empire’ thing. I think I’m going to wait until after the next season (unless I get too thirsty) to pick up the books.
Demerzel did say she knows how to create more of her kind.
my theory is that kalle is somehow related to daneel olivaw's scheme to protect man kind.
Same thought indeed
One robots might be monitoring everything (Daneel)
The other might be guiding the Cleons ( Demerzel )
And finally kalle is there to find the solution for human kind ( through Gal & Hari )
@@yvessergetshefu4462 daneel is demerzel as far as i know for the show
@@luciaceba4640 indeed it is the main protagonists or antagonist
She might have a hive mind that controle all the galaxy from a far, meaning she could also be Kallee & the prime radiant as well as the Vault
She might be the one who caused the terrorist attacked, the one who spies on the magicians & religious foundation church clerics, monitoring everything behind the scene
And she’s the one even influencing Day to have offspring for her to continue being a prime minister for his children
However I wonder if she will collect their knowledge to implants them into the new born rulers that would be interesting if she does
Yes indee David S. Goyer made some interesting comments in the AMA he did yesterday about this
Could Seldon's wife have also been a robot, like Dors Venabili in the books ? 🤔
Who gave Seldon the nano machines ?
Who gave Seldon the Raven ?
Palladium is the clue...
My thoughts go along the same line as yours..... that Hari's wife was a robot like Dors, who was also his childhood teacher that encouraged him in mathematics.
Well they didn’t had children and she has the letter « R » just before her name that was usually written to distinguish robot so it’s very likely hat she might even be an other avatar of Demerzel
@@yvessergetshefu4462 i didn't think about that, but it could be a great idea... combined with Goyer's latest revelation, it could be amazing 😊
maybe, during their journey (developing a Second foundation) Seldon might reunite with yanna and reveals to be a robot and calls herself Dors. 🤔
Does this series have a Cylon type uprising?
I'm going to propose that somehow there is an "emergent" quality to Kalle's mathematics. I'll even offer that she might've been an android
all along and chose exile from human society rather than risking discovery. The ban of androids (robotic humaforms as you call them) predates her discoveries.
Therefore, her fame would be a liability.
The prime radian is a high level computing device sufficient for a human consciousness and more. Very likely, these androids would possess a similar device.
All intelligent forms have a capacity to grow or evolve. It is reasonable to assume there is encoded information within the mathematical proofs and equations.
More to the point, "Oona is my location" being Kalle's message.
I propose that the prime radian evolved to a greater form possibly sentience. The memories were Hari's but the message was Kalle's.
Dermezyl is sentient and If I'm correct so would Kalle. Therefore, it would make it very reasonable to assume the prime radian is too.
Assumming all my assumptions are correct.
I feel like its a safe theory to say that the robots are in on it together.
I don't know if this a book spoiler or not
In the books, Demerzelle was the real mastermind of the Foundation right? What if they split that role in two and Kalle is the mastermind? What if that's how Kalle was able to give that solution to Abraxas? And Kalle restored Hari. That might explain the destiny part too. Destiny implies she couldn't care less about humanity's natural future, only her plan.
I suspect Kale is a robot. This planet is the last outpost of machines.
Interesting - Spoilers I think
So both Dermezel and Kalle in the Prime Radiant are R. Daneel Olivaw guiding humanity, using the Zeroith law,.
Kalle is to dermezel, what Hari prime is to Hari vault.
WHY did the machines ignore Gaal while walking across the planet with Hari to the mountain and while walking across the planet returning to the ship?
WHY did the machines ignore Salvor Hardin when she was alone on the ship?
WHY did the machines ignore both Gaal and Salvor while they were on the ship waiting for Hari?
What really troubles me is how much the show is spinning off from the original Asimov material!
I'm reading the books now in a chronological order, but I can't seem to grap the connections with the show and therfore can't make any prediction or theory of what's gonna happen next ...
I think Kalle is ‘Gaia’ and Dameselle is ‘Daniel’. I predict that Trentor will fall end of Season 2 or 3.
SPOILER
Kalle = Daneel is my theory (from the books), that would also fit the current casting choices (gender swapping, etc). The only thing I can't figure out is that 'Eto Dermazel' is also an alias known to be used by Daneel but it's not clear if Empire Dermazel has the same motivations of helping humanity - she seems to be Empire-specific so it might be a red herring.
Thanks for that...I could not for the life of me remember that name
I thought Demerzel was Daneel. Gender swapping for a robot in the show would be as easy as changing clothes. Maybe they are BOTH Daneel? If there are two Haris in the show, could Daneel split its consciousness into two physical forms as well?
@@kilgaryI’ve read some theories that Empire Dermazel is helping things play out (assassins, decline) simply because they can play the long game, but they haven’t dropped too many clues about the nature of AGI in their story universe. Your idea of a shared consciousness seems accurate. Dermazel’s Loyalty seems locked in.
I like listening to you go over stuff, but I too read all his books and just can’t get anything enjoyable from watching it. My wife does watch it casually but it’s hard to reconcile the direction the show takes over the books. I’m not a hardcore “it has to be the same” as the books, but the tired space Jebus trope just isn’t doing anything for me. I don’t think the showrunners even bothered reading the books, feels like they just wiki’ed the major points and went from there.
I mean, seems kinda obvious to me that Kalle is/was a humaniform like Demerzel and had cloned bodies of harry ready to go.
Spoilers
Kalle. I don't know what to think of this show. Some days, it really feels like they took the Foundation books, including the prequels and some other general SciFi ideas tossed them in a blender, and we are watching the result. I view this sort of as a based on a true ,err made up story.
All that said, I wonder if Kalle is part of Daneel's network. I also wonder if she is also in contact with both Seldon's, which is how the Terminus version knows to ask for Hobner Mallow.
Demerzel. Daneel in the books. I wonder if this is still Daneel or something different. I kind of feel she is acting, in a way, like the Second Foundation, keeping things on track in the Empire. I suspect she is ultimately responsible for the corruption of the line. I will say that the triumvirate Empire that is a consistent clone line is one of the better original ideas they came up with. Much like Rings of Power, they are trying to find a way to keep a cast for the show. Where ROP consolidated the timeline, Foundation uses cloning and stasis, and whatever the heck they are doing with Hari. I liked the evolving cast in the books, but I know for a TV audience that can be jarring and hard to develop a fan base if the cast is constantly dying off.
How come we cant find any videos on Emperor Hanlo? I think Demerzel is a copy of the Emperor and is the real player. Empire is a pawn and Demerzel is the real threat.
The shadow master from season 1 also didn't age. We see him in the first episode destroy a painter that read Harry Seldon's works. This was before the star bridge was taken down. We see him later de-cloak to find the gillyrapters (birds) from the hunt where the color-blind dawn is eventually discovered to be genetically drifting.
The day from the first episode has become dusk, young dawn is now fully day, and this new dawn is almost ready to become Day himself, so it's been at least 30-40 years for the dynasty, but the shadow master is exactly the same. Hasn't aged a day. Also has some nifty cloaking abilities and can survive a pretty nasty blast from the imperial aura device.
There's a different, very human... very dead shadow master early in season 2. We get no explanation for the change, but perhaps the shadow master android is doing double duty assisting the foundation and shifting to appear to be Kali and whomever else suits their purpose.
Empire has cloning tech. Others have the same tech to grow the replacement Dawn. It'd be pretty easy for the robot shadow master to have gotten some of Seldon's DNA and used the Empire's cloning tech to bring him back and merge him with his consciousness.
I mentioned the Shadow Master and what you're saying in my season 1 videos. I was surprised to see it was a new one that he got executed in the Season 2 premiere. I know in an old AMA Goyer said that we would find out more about Shadow Master Obrecht but maybe they changed their minds.
@@PetePeppers1 Mido Hamada might not have been available for Season 2 filming as shadow master since there was almost a 2 year gap in season release.
If they can't use the same actor, I could see why they'd go another direction. They could handwave the season 1 shadow master age issue as being clones.
At least we have some sort of AI besides Harry in the prime radiant and on the dead mining planet, and they have some interest in helping humanity. I just wonder if they are working independently or if Demerzel is working with them.
It seems this Demerzel has no choice but to obey and protect Empire, so I find it unlikely that she could be involved as it's too risky she'd divulge critical information to Empire if asked.
So that leaves some other ancient robot/AI assisting Harry. Maybe it's too early to reveal much about that AI and we'll find out in future seasons - perhaps when Mido Hamada can film some scenes to stitch everything together for us.
@@PetePeppers1 i think it was a mistake from their part and they corrected it as they didn’t wanted to give the viewers too many clues on who age and who isn’t
They probably wanted to lead on only and Demerzel in season one and Kalle in Season 2
SPOILER.... In the upcoming television adaption of the Foundation series, Daneel will appear as Eto Demerzel. In the series, Demerzel will be female and played by Laura Birn.
R. Daneel
Spoliers?
Kalle, Demerzel, Daneel, Giskard.....all related I believe.... I think they are staying closer to the books that we might suggest..... has anyone said the word positronic yet on the show? Remember Eto's line about her consciousness being...decentralized..... it takes a lot of storage to store so many years worth of data from even a *single* robot lifetime....
Indeed you’re perfectly right
And don't forget Gaia.... not that i was very satisfied with where that left us after Foundation and Earth.... 🤓
@@yvessergetshefu4462 and i never even mentioned mentalics.... 🤓😉
@@Winslow273 well who knows maybe they planned to go further after the foundation book especially if they had through Asimov daughter note book of ideas he had planned for the rest
Possible Spoiler
I seem to remember in the books there were 2 surviving robots but maybe one was destroyed...it's been a while so don't quite remember. EDIT as seen in another comment...Daneel is the name I was trying to remember. She would make a good equivalent to Daneel who had sort of the same goal. I think they are making Demarzel a second entity since in the books they were the same robot.
One or both could be a copy of the original robot consciousness, but having developed different agendas over the years.
In the novels, the first person that Gaal met was a person who claimed to be a representative of the empire. Later that person was revealed to be a robot. That person was also an advisor to the emperor’s. That was the first robot, but we didn’t know it that early in the books. Gaal also met a similar person in episode 1 of the Tv series. Maybe this is Daneel? He touched Gaal, if you remember why the robots did that. Just like Demerzel always presses on the small of the emperors backs.
This is not a book spoiler as I haven’t read the book this is just my intuition. Because she represents the mother goddess energy which is the original creator to begin with. That is the story line because that is reality for what’s happening in real life now. The divine mother is waking back up to see the destruction of her son’s rule and reset things. Like with transformers last knight except the mother should have won and the reset should happen. It’s similar to the Greek myth about narcissus who admired himself so much in the water’s reflection that he ended up falling in and drowning - he didn’t realize the mother/water itself was where he came from and was the original beautiful thing and that he was actually seeing it’s beauty. There are many themes of goddess mother who is represented by a lot of water etc waking up. She will probably be revealed as the original mathematician and designer of things whose creation was over run by a narcissist ruler/Empire, and their obsession with themselves because foreshadowed as their won downfall- empire consumes all resources and is not a good leader, rebellion and a total reset is eminent.
👍🏾👌🏾
Spoiler:
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DEMERZEL, ETO-...While there is no question that Eto Demerzel was the real power in the government during much of the reign of Emperor Cleon I, historians are divided as to the nature of his rule. The classic interpretation is that he was another in the long line of strong and ruthless oppressors in the last century of the undivided Galactic Empire, but there are revisionist views that have surfaced that insist his was, if a despotism, a benevolent one. Much is made, in this view, of his relationship with Hari Seldon, though that remains forever uncertain, particularity during the unusual episode of Laskin Joranum, whose meteoric rise- (references : Forward the Foundation)...
R. Daneel Olivaw, also using aliases Eto Demerzel or Chetter Hummin, called Da-Nee in ancient legends, or named The-Man-Who-Is-Not and Daneel-Of-Old by the Memes,
The "R" initial in his name stands for "robot," a naming convention in Asimov's future society. Olivaw appears in Asimov's Robot and Foundation Series. Daneel is an extremely important character, being responsible for the creation of the Galactic Empire, Gaia, psychohistory, and the two Foundations, and the only humaniform robot after the murder of R. Jander Panell.
Zeroth Law of Robotics
In an interesting evolution of robotic sociology two centuries later, Olivaw came to see the need for a new law to be added to the ancient "Three Laws of Robotics": the "Zeroth Law of Robotics" ("A robot may not injure humanity, or, through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm"). This came about after both Daneel and Giskard, who had by this time revealed to Olivaw his powers, came to see the incompleteness of the existing Laws. The Zeroth Law proved destructive to Reventlov's positronic brain when he attempted to act upon it, as he could not tell whether his actions would save humanity or destroy it, resulting in a life-threatening "moral" conflict. Reventlov bestowed his abilities to Olivaw, who, over the course of 20,000 years, adapted himself to be able to fully obey the Zeroth Law without the risk of shutdown. Together Olivaw and Reventlov continued to develop the science of "psychohistory" or Laws of Humanics originally created by Dr Fastolfe, that would enable them to execute the "Zeroth Law" in a quantitative sense. For thousands of years it remained a vague set of axioms, but years later would be fully developed into practical application by Hari Seldon.
Guiding humanity
From this period onward, Olivaw manipulated the galaxy with the help of his many robot allies, who followed his Zeroth Law and became known as "Giskardians". Various different sects of robots, on the other hand, denied it, remaining true to the original three and becoming known as "Calvinians" after the great Susan Calvin. The heretical Calvinian groups began the early Robotic Civil Wars with the Giskardians who followed Daneel, but Olivaw managed to achieve victory in these first wars to focus on guiding humanity. He set up both the First Galactic Empire and the Gaia evermind in approximately the year 11,586 AD in order to create a society that did not need robots. Under the guise of Eto Demerzel, he becomes the First Minister to Galactic Emperors Cleon I and Stanel VI.
During the last days of the Empire
When Hari Seldon first came to Trantor in 12,020 GE, Olivaw, under the guise of reporter Chetter Hummin (a phonetic pronunciation of the words "cheater" and "human"), convinced Hari that the Galactic Empire was dying and that psychohistory must be developed into a practical science in order to save it. As Hummin, he convinced Seldon that Cleon's First Minister Eto Demerzel was pursuing him and that it was imperative for Hari to escape and to try making psychohistory practical. He introduced Hari to R. Dors Venabili, who became Hari's friend, protector and future wife. At the end of Seldon's "Flight" it was revealed that Hummin and Demerzel were actually the same person, and were both false identities of Olivaw.
Eight years after the Flight, Daneel was nearly exposed during the rise of Laskin "Jo-Jo" Joranum. Hari and Dors solved this by getting "Demerzel" to laugh at a question of whether or not he was a robot, shifting public opinion against Joranum. Daneel secretly remained on Trantor, fighting the Calvinian sects in a new wave of civil wars, until forty years later, when he was one of the many in attendance at Hari's funeral in the year 1 FE. Attempts by the Commission of Public Safety to locate him in the days following the funeral were unsuccessful, but his attendance was later recorded in the Encylopedia Galactica.
On Luna
After leaving Trantor for the last time, Daneel went to Luna, the single moon of Earth, and set up a small colony of Giskardian robots there. Five hundred years into this colony's existence, the robots' final task was to erase all records of Earth from the Galactic Library on Trantor, causing Golan Trevize, Janov Pelorat, Bliss and Fallom to search for Earth and eventually find him, learning about his paternalistic manipulations, including the settlement of Alpha Centauri, the creation of Gaia, and psychohistory, eventually leading to the creation of the Seldon Project and the establishment of the Foundations. Olivaw's purpose, he revealed, was to merge with Fallom to live long enough to establish the galactic superorganism, Galaxia. While he was theoretically immortal, due to the fact that he was a robot, his parts constantly needed replacing, including his brain, and he had now reached the point at 19,443 years old where he had to use a biological body.
THANK YOU!!!! You have said everything that needed to be said, very succinctly. THANK YOU!
@@michaellerner528 you’re welcome 😇
@@yvessergetshefu4462 I mention this in passing, since you have sent out the root of what Daneel is: that as Trevize and friends were surveying the moon from their ship looking for something using Bliss' mentalics of Gaia. She picked up on something that was "not human......not quite robotic either"...."it's neither.... not human, and yet it's not like any robot I've detected before." (Foundation and Earth). It's part of the ending that I always puzzled over, but arrived at the unique ending to the Foundation series wherein Daneel had achieved a measure of human life.
Thank you
Please explain Demerzel’s role as the de facto AI power behind the Throne and running the Empire. 🍻
The book relates one set of storylines, the Apple series another. I don't understand the Apple series, but I can explain a little bit about the books -- I hope you find this helpful...Demerzel is a persona that Daneel was forced to take on when he saw that the Emperors were growing weak, while at the same time the Empire itself was starting to fall apart. Noted: in one of the prequels, it is Daneel and his one friend, a robot named Giskard that set things in motion that turned the Earth radioactive such that humans had to leave and then colonize the Galaxy. The decision was made WITHOUT consulting any humans. So essentially, 2 robots made a decision for humanity. Daneel was the architect of the Empire, believing that such a structure would be the safest for humanity. He did a good job -- it lasted longer than any other form of governance that mankind had invented for itself -- 20,000 years. As demerzel, he had the "ear" of the Emperors, plus the "gift" of being able to move minds (without a human knowing this), which he used judiciously on the Emperors. -- He had hoped that humans could run their own affairs, and very seldom interjected himself into things. He had actually built Trantor as an enclosed city -- modeled after Caves of Steel - in an effort to create a "safe" world. The philosophical problem, and part of the argument (which we are now facing with AI) comes down to this: In Daneel's establishing a fourth law, which by its nature changes the other 3 laws, he has taken on a "caring" for humans that does away with free will. He is childlike in many ways: he has no concept of free will; he has no fully developed understanding of the nature of humans, esp our capacity for killing or harming one another, and so on. He is forever trying to keep humanity safe, and keeps failing. In the final book that Asimov wrote, Daneel has one last idea -- he created Gaia, which is a planet of one whole sentient being of people, plants, -- everything. But he corrects for his grave error on Earth this time -- he consults with a human, and lets the human make the choice. So yes -- Daneel/Demerzel was the de facto power behind the throne. He was trying to hold the Empire together while Gaia was developed. Even the Foundation , psychohistory, and everything that Hari tried to do was all a time using device as part of a plan by Daneel to keep things running just long enough for Gaia to come to fruition, which would finally create a united and peaceable humanity. So either Daneel is a horrid monster, controlling everything, even taking away free will, or he is a naïve child like thing who cannot fully understand humans, but who has was forced into this role of caretaker. The debate still goes on, 50 years after the books.
A dead person talking to other dead people… sounds legit
I wish there was no robot wars. It sound too much like they are trying to be like the Dune series. I wish it was more like Asimov's transition novels linking the two series.
asimov did the robot war first, the dune series then copy it.
@@arielathomo229 But aren't they all ... copying from the Bible ... with AI, robots, super beings ... being God, Angels & Demons .. and Humans just doing what Humans do. And the Bible actually includes ... the Roman Empire .. the rise & fall of civilizations?
But if Oona & Kalle's people were an unknown android race .. that helped destroy Demerzel's people .... then this would explain a lot of what is happening on the show .. and Demerzel discovered who they they are and turned the Mech's against them, with Kalle hiding there all along.
Or ... Oona's people simply developed androids or hydrid clones .. that threaten Empire and eliminated by Empire.
foundation came first, hence it was called ' foundation'
also foundation robot wars was an actual war, dune robot war was more sociopolitical, but in the end still humans agains humans( at least the frank herbert way of the story, not the brian one)
Spoiler
In the books where the robot series was linked the the foundation series earth was rerender radioactive by a robot allowing a plot against earth to move forward because he thought it would help mankind to get off earth. He then froze up and gave his telepathic powers ... nevermind. The point is there was not a robot war as part of the 1.5 million word robot foundation timeline. I rmead the whole thing.
I thought Demoresel was looking at the mural on the wall bcs she was the actually the one looking toward the Emperor in it.... Also how did that Emperor last for so many generations back then?
I kind of thought that too.
Her dynasty lasted for 2000 years. Hanlo didn't live that long.
mild book spoilers
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I havent really read the robot series in a while. (they were my first books along with bradbury's martian chronicles) but I recently re-read the foundation series up to foundation and earth. It did not age well at all. I still enjoyed them though. The robots have me puzzled. I don't remember mention of a robot war in the novels. I must have glossed over it. OooooK got it.. just finished the book I must have missed. Now I have to read a bunch more. Everything is making sense except for one thing I don't get and haven't for a while... How is Demrezel able to break the 3 or 4 laws? I get the clone because since they are clones they are not technically human.
This is one of those shows that's so damn confusing its barely worth trudging through it... Its like each episode needs its own Wikipedia page. Whatever happened to, lets sit back and relax and watch a show? Why do I need to take notes and study after every episode??
Baby Beyonce's show is off the chain!!!!
[Potential Spoilers]
Having read the entire Foundation series more than once, I would love to speculate on what we are seeing.
But I have insights into the story arc that newcomers may not notice. I know anything I say, any dots I try to connect, could be a spoiler.
So it's a good chance Hari is now a robot, I doubt he is fully human. Just humanoid.
That's not what the episode told us and I don't really how that twist would add to things. We'll see.
@PetePeppers1 we definitely will. Hopefully this writers strike doesn't hurt the show and/or prolong future seasons where we waiting forever.
This comment feeds the algorithm 🌶️
why does the story keep reintroducing us to this mathematician who's been dead for centuries? because apple tv needed more strong independent black women in space who do science stuff. and this new one will probably be a daneel rip off, within parameters that apple lawyers feel comfortable with. but hey ... at least this helps their ESG score
BIGOT
Season 2 is terrible...
Quite a bit more drama, less sci-fi. But overall still watchable, though maybe not 11 times.