I'm pretty sure you DON'T lose access to the card exiled with Vivien if Vivien leaves the battlefield. All other abilities templated this way (all in one ability block of text) allows you to cast the card regardless if the card is still around.
And honestly, not sure why they're upticking Vivien. I only do it if she doesn't have the loyalty to draw a card and survive on her own. I like her ability to flash thus disguising my possible plays in Tovolar. But I may as well do my best to replace her with one or two -2 activations whenever possible. So T1: -2, T2: +1: T3: -2. now just +1 her back to at least three again... but that's so far in the game at that point...
@@bennettquiggins3292 I like her. But not enough for just any green deck. I'm using her in Werewolves where I do value the flash off of her and Daybound Arlinn Kord.
I love hearing Richard, the man who specifically said he doesn't run a lot of removal, ask the question "would you want a free beast within every turn?" Like yes any player would. Not only that Oko is better than beast within because it doesn't get rid of the creature. It nullifies it.
Keep it up, you've been on fire. Loving all the disagreements and hot takes all the while maintaining an orderly and proper discussion. Too many people are afraid to say anything remotely controversial or against the grain so they just make boring and sterile content.
Exactly! I also like that they will sometimes change their score and switch their stance on a card based off of the discussion. I know I definitely have changed my perspective on a lot of cards theyve discussed.
To clarify, Vivien, Champion of the Wilds, does not have to be on the battlefield to play the exiled card, she just need to be on the battlefield if you want to flash it in. The condition allowing you to cast it is on the effect that put the card in exile, not Vivien. This sort of distinction is similar to the difference between Oblivion Ring and Banishing Light.
Love the podcast! A lot of other MTG podcasts don't have this level of back and forth discourse. I think this pod accurately depicts the variety of different playstyles and archetypes that exist within the MTG community. I enjoy the variety of perspectives and insights! Keep it up!
I love planeswalkers. I realize they aren’t I guess “worth it” in every situation, but it gets a bit of heat off me and if they don’t go after them, that ultimate will probably get me into position to win.
True, they totally didn't mention the virtual life gain which can definitely play into the value. One of my most powerful decks is saheeli. I can sometimes get my combo or at least be going off by turn 4 of 5, especially because few people put planeswalker removal and boards aren't usually that big by turn 3 when she usually comes out
Richard severely understimates the power of Oko. Once Oko hits the battlefiled, it denies every permanent that doesn't have an immediate effect, you need to remove it ASAP or all your rocks will turn into elks, and since it goes up to 6 loyalty on turn 3, it isn't an easy task.
Yeah, the targeting artifacts can be so brutal. I turned someone's reservoir into an elk and basically ruined their win con. The targeting artifacts are brutal; sure, targeting creatures is fine but doesn't seem as impactful as often.
One complaint I have with how people run Planeswalkers is they think because of Planeswalker is weak they should only run one or two in a non-super friends deck but that completely misses the point. Even without support the more Planeswalkers you run the better each of them become because one to three loyalty here or there matters a lot less and each opponent will disagree on what to take out. Multiple Planeswalkers on the board ensure that any given one is more likely to survive than just one on its own. Plus any three mana Planeswalker is essentially a ghostly prison or propaganda++ because it diverts damage away from you until it dies. Play them as low mana value pieces instead of big bombs.
The best ones for this are def ashiok and narset because of splashability but almost every deck has one or two uncommon planeswalkers that at least kinda synergize with them.
I'm down for this. The planeswalkers still need to have impact as cards, but I also like diversifying what's on the table. If I already have three creatures on the board, then I still want to be using my mana to do things, but not necessarily by adding a 4th creature. Now's the time to land an enchantment, an artifact, or even a Planeswalker. Something to further my board position, but diversifying what I have out there. Hence I still have something against the less thorough board wipes. And sometimes it's easier to defend a walker than other times. You have good creatures, you have goaded your opponent's stuff, your opponent has an combat attack trigger that doesn't trigger on planeswalkers. Get the initial modal effect you can, then milk 'em for value.
This is actually where I'm at with planeswalkers. The thing is, the fact that planeswalkers get better the more of them are in the game is true not just for the planeswalkers you run, but for everyone's planeswalkers. The more planeswalkers are in the decks at the table, the better each of those planeswalkers are in that game. If we can talk up planeswalkers to the point where you can expect to see 3-7 planeswalkers in most decks, their value goes up to the point where it might actually be gamewarping. If everyone at the table can expect to draw ~1 planeswalker per game, and you're sitting there with a planeswalker in your hand, there's a decent chance someone else has a planeswalker in their hand; and you're both just waiting for someone else to play a planeswalker so you can play your own planeswalker. If 2 planeswalkers come down in one turn cycle, both of those planeswalkers have a significantly better chance of surviving than if there was only one.
elspeth, sun's champion is great! It gives you a 1/1 for each opponent while also having a wrath effect, so its a great topdeck in almost any situation!
Richard, choosing between Oko and Vivian: "I'll take the one that can't protect itself without other creatures, and pretend all my other arguments against Oko didn't happen."
For Vivien, Champion of the Wilds "For as long as it remains exiled" means even if Vivien leave the field you can still cast it. The only downside to that card is not having a creature in the top 3.
I love Oko. I even made a set of custom Elk tokens for him. The art is from Kenrith’s Transformation but I shopped that meme of Tom Cruise laughing into the background and put a blue overlay on his upper face and gave him Oko’s crown. So satisfying to put that over my opponent’s Commander
Sisay tutoring Ashiok or Narset in response to relevant effects on the stack is an exquisite joy. I think if Richard did it once he'd understand them haha.
These podcasts has consistently been a fun listen. You four content creators have an awesome vibe and im having a fun time familiarizing myself with the goldfish homies. Appreciate the efforts, uploads, and the inspiration 💙
I love venser the sojourner, he's just so good in a blink deck as either a conjurer's closet or a overrun when you've got a critical mass. Best doubling season one IMO is Jace architect of thought since he can grab another walker to ult right away from your deck, then any others your opponents may be running, or at least the best card in everyone's deck.
I have an atraxa superfriends deck that runs vorinclex and doubling season so I got some targets for y'all Tamiyo field researcher: draw 3 omniscience Narset transcendent- your opponents can't cast noncreature spells Tamiyo moon sage- no max hand size and any time something goes to your graveyard you can have it go to your hand Kaya the inexorable- once per upkeep you can cast a legendary from your hand or graveyard or anything in exile Garruk unleashed-at your end step tutor a creature onto the battlefield Teferi temporal archmage- activate planeswalker abilities on any turn at instant speed Ajani steadfast- all damage dealt to you and your planeswalkers only deals 1 damage Love the podcast! Keep doing what you're doing!
Saheeli, the Gifted is my favorite. I run her as a commander in a transmogrify/polymorph deck. She makes a creature and helps pay for big colorless creatures if you draw them. I think Vivien Reid is the best doubling season walker. Her emblem sets you up so nicely if you're a creature / token deck.
I love Teferi Master of Time every time I cast it. Especially in a control focused deck where you have a few more tricks to keep him alive. Even if you never ult him, multiple uses of the + and - abilities are fantastic. If he survives a turn cycle I feel so far ahead. If you're running anything that lets you cast from grave or that you even want in there (echo of eons) the loot effect is even better. If this is the card drawing all the hate for people to get rid of --- great. Fewer answers for the rest of my key pieces.
Yes the game starts with 4 players, but everyone seems to forget the game eventually goes to 3 and to 2 players. Walkers get better as people are taken out.
I love planeswalkers! I always get the comment “you’ll never ultimate this, don’t even think of that ability”, that’s why I like super friends decks because it allows you to do things you’re usually not able to do with planeswalkers. And it feel so good! Nice podcast 👍🏼
Another fun thing about that: whenever people say something's not good, they're telling you they aren't playing around that possibility. Play that planeswalker and you may very well ultimate it because they aren't building their decks to actually fight planeswalkers.
I think he takes the format way too seriously. It’s commander, there’s nothing on the line, you don’t need to run the most efficient version of everything.
. I Like him. But He sometimes just argueing for argueing. oko is a beast and ugin is a boardwipe, where U Pick what U Exile. Thats more then a 8 mana boardwipe.
part of why i respect his opinions so much is that he's always changing his mind. he has strong feelings but he's not really set in them and thats a great way to think
his arguments for Oko where really weak tho, it's great that each of them has such a different point of view but saying cards arent good cause they wont last/get value against go wide decks is too restrictive
While planeswalkers are a lot more powerful in one v one situations (one of my opponents had 2 sorins and eventually overwhelmed my defenses). They’re still really cool lol
My favorite doubling season planeswalker instant win is Samut, the tested ultimate to grab Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God and Nicol Bolas, God Pharoh. I think it might be what we need to see Crim play green.
Are we never going to discuss how Richard rates every card as if every Pod is just 3 White Weenie decks? He always says "they'll hit you with their creatures" as if every opponent at all times has creatures haha. Birds have overrun his mind. Birds too strong.
@@delathenleso5793 I really like Richard and think he has a lot of valuable insights on Magic. And I agree with him on a lot of stuff, especially Secret Rendezvous! I just think this particular thing is a bit funny is all.
@@delathenleso5793 yes, always winning, but had to buy his way in. Sure thing. All tables I have played at, combat happens pretty frequently. There are creatures, generally a lot of them. Maybe one deck is combo-y-er but every other deck feels more midrange. Board presence via creatures.
@@delathenleso5793 I think most average players analyze a card by the average of their imagined scenarios, whereas people like Richard actually put a likelihood value to each imagined scenario. I've experienced enough to understand it is very rare that a top player is wrong in their analysis, and very common that a large group of average players are wrong in their analysis. An unwillingness to listen to experts over one's own feelings is why we have things like anti-vax, anti-science, anti-intellectualism in general.
Ashiok in my muldrotha deck puts in work, the fact you can replay her and get the extra value of milling yourself alongside asymetrical board wipe and tutor hate is great
I play planeswakers for flavor for sure. I find that I have become emotionally detached from how long my permanents stick on the board. I also think that planeswalkers can be highly impactful, causing attacks, creating a very clear if/then scenario on a turn by turn basis
There is one element about Ashiok that you failed to consider: you can self mill. I love Ashok in my muldrotha deck because I have so much graveyard recursion that milling myself for 4 is basically the same as or better than drawing me a card. It's also a different card type for muldrotha, since I don't have many walkers in the deck. In a deck where milling yourself for 4 is an upside then I think it's very good
A card you may want to look at is Mirror-mad Phantasm. It has an activated ability that reads: 1U: Mirror-Mad Phantasm's owner shuffles it into their library. If that player does, they reveal cards from the top of that library until a card named Mirror-Mad Phantasm is revealed. The player puts that card onto the battlefield and all other cards revealed this way into their graveyard. A buddy of mine runs it in his muldrotha with a couple enchantments that tell him to skip his draw step and he makes a token of the phantasm and activates the tokens ability, this results in him milling his entire library since there is no phantasm in the deck and at least one of the aforementioned enchantments gets played to keep him from losing due to lacking a library to draw from. Hands down a game winning move on par with Hermit druid.
I love Ashiok. Especially since the -1 is to self mill myself AND get rid of opponent's graveyards. As you folks said, our graveyards are routinely part of our hands.
As I used to run a 5 Color Superfriends deck as my first 'tuned' list, my game plan was super group hug orientated with mass card draw and tutors for doubling season. IMO the best Ultimate off a doubling season is easily Samut, the Tested. Use it, get Nicol Bolas, God Pharoah and Nicol Bolas, Dragon God, and win the game. Very thematic!
Hey Clash Crew- I have played more than a few super friends decks, and in my experience Big Lili from War of the Spark (Liliana, Dreadhorde General) is the most backbreaking doubling season ult combo to pull off. It hits all your opponents, and obliterates the vast majority of their permanents including their lands. It's very difficult to come back from and most of the time results in a concession from the table. You also get to keep Lili around after using it so that's nice.
A couple of planeswalkers I love that they didn't mention: - Elspeth, sun's champion (a wrath for token decks) - Tamiyo, field researcher (great card draw on a +1 for 4 mana, decent interaction on a -2 which you can leverage politically, only issue is 3 colour identity)
My personal favorite Planeswalker is probably Serra the Benevolent. It's thematic with angels, my favorite tribe, but relevant to the rest of Magic is that it's only 1 activation away from giving you a permanent Worship anthem for the rest of the game, which is so rewarding when it fires :-)
there are also add some planeswalkers to the list: - chandra awaken inferno: emblem 1 damage in upkeep for enermies (thats the +2), 3 damage boardwipe (not working on elementals) and exiles a creature/planeswalker - Elspeth, Sun's Champion: 3 1/1s, boardwipe (if bigger then 4 power), make stuff strong - Sorin Markov: drain something for 2, set the life of one player to 10, controll the next turn of a player. btw IT SETS THE LIFE TO 10!!! - Xenagos, the Reveler: get mana in green and/or red for each creature, poope a 2/2 haste, something worse then getting a lot of mana Oh doublin season: - Vraska, Relic Seeker: target players life is 1 - Vraska, Golgari Queen: loose the game if one of your creatures deals damage to the player - Venser, the Sojourner: cast spell exile target permanent - Vivien Reid: +2+2 indestructable, vigilance, trample emblem - Tezzeret, Master of Metal: steal all artifacts and creatures - Teferi, Timebender: extra turn - Mu Yanling: tap all opponents creature and extra turn (wait your not an teferi, get the hell out of here!) - Teferi, Master of Time: two extra turns - Tamiyo, Field Researcher: omnitions emblem - Tamiyo, the Moon Sage: get all things back from grave + no max handsize emblem - Sorin Markov: controll the next turn of target player - Ral Zarek: flip 5 times a coin, each time you win get an extra turn - Nissa, Vital Force: may draw if land etb emblem - most bolas: do things. - Narset Transcendent: opponents cant cast noncreatures emblem - Liliana Vess: take all creatures in all graveyards - Liliana, Dreadhorde General: only 1 of each permanet allowed for opponents. - Kaya the Inexorable: in upkeep may cast from hand, grave or exile without paying mana emblem - Jace, Unraveler of Secrets: counter first spell each turn emblem - Jace, Memory Adept: draw twenty cards - Garruk, Primal Hunter: 6/6 per land - Garruk, Cursed Huntsman: +3+3 and trample emblem - Elspeth, Sun's Champion: +2+2 and flying emblem (well or why not make just 3 1/1s???) - Chandra, Torch of Defiance: cast = 5 damage emblem - Ajani, Caller of the Pride: poope x 2/2 cats. X = your life there are more but they are specific on tribes or gameplan or not lose the game things like Ajani, Mentor of Heroes: +100 life, or Koth of the Hammer: tap mountain deal 1 damage to creature/player.
Another benefit of Garruk is that Green is now getting a lot of cards that return PERMANENTS to your hand from the graveyard. Or you can hit it off of Genesis Wave.
Only play 1 planeswalker across all my commander decks, however it's effectiveness is incredible as I don't expect it to live for long, but if it survives a single turn cycle, it's fantastic
Oko also scales with the number of people at your table who are into guys, because if you kill him then you don't get to look at those incredible abs anymore
This podcast was very interesting. I was very surprised not to hear about one planeswalker though. Also, you can play the card exiled with Vivien even after she dies. Just a little correction there. 1. Teferi, Time Raveler. 2. Nissa, Who Shakes the World 3. Vivien, Champion of the WIlds There may be a little bias here as I mostly play mono green in my casual play. It was very surprising that Teferi, Time Raveler wasn't listed. This guy is bonkers. Holds all your opponents to sorcery speed and can give you access to instant speed wraths. That is my S tier planeswalker. The other two slot very nicely in to any green based decks! For the record, I do have 1 cEDH deck. It runs Teferi, Time Raveler, Ashiok, Dream Renderer, Karn, the Great Creator, Narset, Parter of Veils, and Jace, Wielder of Mysteries. Jace is just an alternate win-con. The static abilities of all these are strong enough that I feel that they warrant a spot in my cEDH deck! What is your guys thoughts on Teferi, Time Raveler?
You can use Sarkhan renewed ultimate to get all dragons in your deck instantly. If you get Atarka and Kolaghan, all dragons have haste and double strike. Add that to dragons that give you mana and extra combats and you win the game!
Jace architect of thought I think is a super underrated Planeswalker and I'm pretty sure it's less than a buck. The +1 is one of the only defensive abilities to affect every opponent instead of just making a blocker or killing a creature, and you can immediately get one to three cards out of him against a bigger board
I have found the best way to evaluate a PW to be if it can A) protect itself and B) gain some sort of card/board advantage and completely ignore the ultimate ability. Outside of doubling season or a dedicated superfriends deck with lots of wraths it is exceedingly rare to get a PW to stick for that long on a battlefield. I like to think of the ultimate ability as a nice bonus but ignore it when evaluating playability.
I'm a fan of Garruk Wildspeaker in commander. It combos with karoo and Temple of the False God (I'm still holding out on this land!). Even just untapping two basics ramps and even helps fix. The Overrun mode is actually reachable, and the minus ability to make 3/3 Beast isn't a dead mode either.
I love planeswalkers because it punishes the playgroups that just stay back all game and build their board. It forces the group to interact more, force some attacks, and take some risks. Chandra is my favorite group of planeswalkers, but OG Ral Zarek is the true homie. I've untapped so many lotus fields/ gilded lotus with him, its insane. I also cloned him once, and ult'd both in the same turn. I got 5 extra turns XD
You can still cast the creature that is put into exile with Vivien, just not at instant speed (unless you have another way of playing creatures at instant speed). This is because what grants you the ability to cast the creature later is the resolution of the ability.
I´m not the biggest fan of planeswalkers, but Teferi, Master of Time ist doing work in my Minn Deck. Drawing on every Players turn is so valuable in this Deck and you get Illusions to protect him :)
look at how good a planeswalker needs to be to see consistent play: Jeska has 1) can be your commander so she’s not in your deck wasting a draw and is always accessible 2) has partner so you are not limited to mono red 3) has an infinite mana sink that wins you the game. 4) has another ability that can easily result in player removal
Nissa vital force is a favorite for me. Ramp it out early and you only need to + once to get to a reallly good emblem, not to mention the + protects her and the -3 is very good too
Jace Archetect of Thought is really good with Doubling Season, you get to grab the next best ult (depending on the situation, Tamiyo Field Reseacher is a good choice) and get extra stuff from your opponents immediately. It will often win on the spot.
Feels like Richard is obstinately 'playing' a character on this. His opinions on a lot of these planeswalks seems very off. Oko, Karn, Ashiok... my goodness. Richard evaluates planeswalker as if every board everyone has 2-4 evasive creatures except the planewalkers player... and that no one casts board-wipes ever. Idk. Got to say I won a game last week with only 3 lands after a vandalblast brought me to the stone age with only a Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. Game was force very quickly into a 3v1 and Bolas went the distance fairly easy.
I'd suggest Chandra, Flamecaller as well. Draws Cards makes tokens and kind of wraths. Also Ob Nixilis of the Black oath is fine. Makes a 5/5 flyer with is often enough to defend him.
Teferi, Master of Time is so good on my Muldrotha deck. I actually have ultimate him a few times more than you may think because I have a pretty strong removal.
Ugin is great on my Osgir deck. Storming off with Mystic Forge always feels amazing, and I've had games where I get plenty of cards just off of the +1.
Jace architect of thought + doubling seasom + wheel of sun and moon Hilarous infinite that lets you exile all non land cards from your opponents decks. May as well win lol
during wots pre release, i had nissa who shakes the world and the proliferate whenever a land enters the battlefield. I got to ult nissa when she was at 9 and then managed to proliferate her all the way to 11 afterwards. was awesome
I love Planeswalkers but I usually end up cutting them at card 105 or so for some similar effect on a non Planeswalker for the benefit of the rest of the table. I actually think it's surprisingly easy to stick a Planeswalker but they exponentially slow down my turn as I have to juggle more decisions.
I think assuming that everyone will be bearing down on planeswalkers is largely unrealistic. If you have any board presence outside of the planeswalker, that will affect how other players react. If you just assume itll be attacked each turn, then you're assuming the worst always. If we calculate the value of every card by the worst case scenario, why play any spell if blue will counter it or if black will kill all your creatures or if white will exile it? My point is, planeswalkers are still good- and you should probably think before playing them with an empty battlefield
I'm pretty sure you DON'T lose access to the card exiled with Vivien if Vivien leaves the battlefield. All other abilities templated this way (all in one ability block of text) allows you to cast the card regardless if the card is still around.
She even says "as long as that card remains exiled" not as long as you control Vivien so you are correct, you don't lose the card if she goes away
This comment is correct, they are incorrect
And honestly, not sure why they're upticking Vivien. I only do it if she doesn't have the loyalty to draw a card and survive on her own. I like her ability to flash thus disguising my possible plays in Tovolar. But I may as well do my best to replace her with one or two -2 activations whenever possible. So T1: -2, T2: +1: T3: -2. now just +1 her back to at least three again... but that's so far in the game at that point...
I rather enjoy her as far as cards go. But I definitely understand their overall hesitation
@@bennettquiggins3292 I like her. But not enough for just any green deck. I'm using her in Werewolves where I do value the flash off of her and Daybound Arlinn Kord.
I love hearing Richard, the man who specifically said he doesn't run a lot of removal, ask the question "would you want a free beast within every turn?" Like yes any player would. Not only that Oko is better than beast within because it doesn't get rid of the creature. It nullifies it.
Keep it up, you've been on fire. Loving all the disagreements and hot takes all the while maintaining an orderly and proper discussion.
Too many people are afraid to say anything remotely controversial or against the grain so they just make boring and sterile content.
Exactly! I also like that they will sometimes change their score and switch their stance on a card based off of the discussion. I know I definitely have changed my perspective on a lot of cards theyve discussed.
Richard single-handedly changed my opinion on secret rendezvous. Ton of fun listening to these guys.
Hard agree
Hard agree with you too, secret rendezvous is hot
I completely concur - subscribed!
To clarify, Vivien, Champion of the Wilds, does not have to be on the battlefield to play the exiled card, she just need to be on the battlefield if you want to flash it in. The condition allowing you to cast it is on the effect that put the card in exile, not Vivien. This sort of distinction is similar to the difference between Oblivion Ring and Banishing Light.
Gotta say, Crim's unadultered pure joy when talking about Nicol Bolas is very contagious, and I'm not even a Grixis player
I adore crim for the same reason. I love his enthusiasm and hatred for green 😂
Just made a nicol bolas commander deck and I am very much vibing with this energy
When Crim started the sentence "I love planeswalkers so much I have two super friends..." I expected it to end with "... body pillows" 🤣
Oh please, you know Crim has at least FIVE Nicol Bolas body pillows, don't underestimate him so much!
my takeaway from this episode: Richard vastly overestimates the number of creatures that are played in commander :D
Love the podcast! A lot of other MTG podcasts don't have this level of back and forth discourse. I think this pod accurately depicts the variety of different playstyles and archetypes that exist within the MTG community. I enjoy the variety of perspectives and insights! Keep it up!
I love planeswalkers. I realize they aren’t I guess “worth it” in every situation, but it gets a bit of heat off me and if they don’t go after them, that ultimate will probably get me into position to win.
True, they totally didn't mention the virtual life gain which can definitely play into the value. One of my most powerful decks is saheeli. I can sometimes get my combo or at least be going off by turn 4 of 5, especially because few people put planeswalker removal and boards aren't usually that big by turn 3 when she usually comes out
Richard severely understimates the power of Oko. Once Oko hits the battlefiled, it denies every permanent that doesn't have an immediate effect, you need to remove it ASAP or all your rocks will turn into elks, and since it goes up to 6 loyalty on turn 3, it isn't an easy task.
Yup. He’s literally game warping when he drops in.
Yeah, the targeting artifacts can be so brutal. I turned someone's reservoir into an elk and basically ruined their win con. The targeting artifacts are brutal; sure, targeting creatures is fine but doesn't seem as impactful as often.
Why is his elk a + ability ? Wtf were wizards thinking ?
@@LouisKing995apparently when playtesting they played as if it only targeted your own stuff
@@donb7519 Idiots 😂 If there was ever a card that could benefit from an errata it’s Oko
One complaint I have with how people run Planeswalkers is they think because of Planeswalker is weak they should only run one or two in a non-super friends deck but that completely misses the point. Even without support the more Planeswalkers you run the better each of them become because one to three loyalty here or there matters a lot less and each opponent will disagree on what to take out. Multiple Planeswalkers on the board ensure that any given one is more likely to survive than just one on its own. Plus any three mana Planeswalker is essentially a ghostly prison or propaganda++ because it diverts damage away from you until it dies. Play them as low mana value pieces instead of big bombs.
The best ones for this are def ashiok and narset because of splashability but almost every deck has one or two uncommon planeswalkers that at least kinda synergize with them.
I'm down for this. The planeswalkers still need to have impact as cards, but I also like diversifying what's on the table. If I already have three creatures on the board, then I still want to be using my mana to do things, but not necessarily by adding a 4th creature. Now's the time to land an enchantment, an artifact, or even a Planeswalker. Something to further my board position, but diversifying what I have out there. Hence I still have something against the less thorough board wipes. And sometimes it's easier to defend a walker than other times. You have good creatures, you have goaded your opponent's stuff, your opponent has an combat attack trigger that doesn't trigger on planeswalkers. Get the initial modal effect you can, then milk 'em for value.
This is actually where I'm at with planeswalkers. The thing is, the fact that planeswalkers get better the more of them are in the game is true not just for the planeswalkers you run, but for everyone's planeswalkers. The more planeswalkers are in the decks at the table, the better each of those planeswalkers are in that game. If we can talk up planeswalkers to the point where you can expect to see 3-7 planeswalkers in most decks, their value goes up to the point where it might actually be gamewarping.
If everyone at the table can expect to draw ~1 planeswalker per game, and you're sitting there with a planeswalker in your hand, there's a decent chance someone else has a planeswalker in their hand; and you're both just waiting for someone else to play a planeswalker so you can play your own planeswalker. If 2 planeswalkers come down in one turn cycle, both of those planeswalkers have a significantly better chance of surviving than if there was only one.
Thank you, I play some Planeswalkers as shields. Some of them have to be answered or you just win. So you buy time to deploy your real threats.
You don't need Vivian on the battlefield to cast the card she exiles it doesn't say that in the text.
elspeth, sun's champion is great! It gives you a 1/1 for each opponent while also having a wrath effect, so its a great topdeck in almost any situation!
I love that card so much. I slam it in every token deck I have.
Richard, choosing between Oko and Vivian:
"I'll take the one that can't protect itself without other creatures, and pretend all my other arguments against Oko didn't happen."
if the banlist discussion didnt teach you the guys arent consistent nothing will
I'm literally the anti-Grixis (I have five Selesnya decks and zero Grixis decks) but Crim's love for Bolas is contagious.
For Vivien, Champion of the Wilds "For as long as it remains exiled" means even if Vivien leave the field you can still cast it. The only downside to that card is not having a creature in the top 3.
I love Oko. I even made a set of custom Elk tokens for him. The art is from Kenrith’s Transformation but I shopped that meme of Tom Cruise laughing into the background and put a blue overlay on his upper face and gave him Oko’s crown. So satisfying to put that over my opponent’s Commander
Now that is art. Absolutely hilarious 😂
Ugin, the ineffable is an all-star in my Kykar artifact storm deck. So much synergy with the +1 and static ability, it's a must-answer threat.
Sisay tutoring Ashiok or Narset in response to relevant effects on the stack is an exquisite joy. I think if Richard did it once he'd understand them haha.
These podcasts has consistently been a fun listen. You four content creators have an awesome vibe and im having a fun time familiarizing myself with the goldfish homies. Appreciate the efforts, uploads, and the inspiration 💙
I think, technically, Ugin’s plus ability doesn’t Bolt, it Ghostfires
I love venser the sojourner, he's just so good in a blink deck as either a conjurer's closet or a overrun when you've got a critical mass. Best doubling season one IMO is Jace architect of thought since he can grab another walker to ult right away from your deck, then any others your opponents may be running, or at least the best card in everyone's deck.
I love Ugin, the Ineffable for how it interacts with morphs. My Kadena deck makes this downright, terrifying.
I have an atraxa superfriends deck that runs vorinclex and doubling season so I got some targets for y'all
Tamiyo field researcher: draw 3 omniscience
Narset transcendent- your opponents can't cast noncreature spells
Tamiyo moon sage- no max hand size and any time something goes to your graveyard you can have it go to your hand
Kaya the inexorable- once per upkeep you can cast a legendary from your hand or graveyard or anything in exile
Garruk unleashed-at your end step tutor a creature onto the battlefield
Teferi temporal archmage- activate planeswalker abilities on any turn at instant speed
Ajani steadfast- all damage dealt to you and your planeswalkers only deals 1 damage
Love the podcast! Keep doing what you're doing!
Saheeli, the Gifted is my favorite. I run her as a commander in a transmogrify/polymorph deck. She makes a creature and helps pay for big colorless creatures if you draw them.
I think Vivien Reid is the best doubling season walker. Her emblem sets you up so nicely if you're a creature / token deck.
I love Teferi Master of Time every time I cast it. Especially in a control focused deck where you have a few more tricks to keep him alive. Even if you never ult him, multiple uses of the + and - abilities are fantastic. If he survives a turn cycle I feel so far ahead. If you're running anything that lets you cast from grave or that you even want in there (echo of eons) the loot effect is even better. If this is the card drawing all the hate for people to get rid of --- great. Fewer answers for the rest of my key pieces.
I just realized that everyone has their favorite planeswalker behind them in the thumbnail, then there is a Nissa behind Crim 🤣 well done
I feel Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge needs more love. Cost reduction is no joke.
He's also one of the few PW's whose + ability can close out a game.
I love these podcasts, keep them coming!
Came out during my long workday. Popped this vid on and my day was a lot better thanks boys
Yes the game starts with 4 players, but everyone seems to forget the game eventually goes to 3 and to 2 players. Walkers get better as people are taken out.
I love planeswalkers! I always get the comment “you’ll never ultimate this, don’t even think of that ability”, that’s why I like super friends decks because it allows you to do things you’re usually not able to do with planeswalkers. And it feel so good! Nice podcast 👍🏼
Another fun thing about that: whenever people say something's not good, they're telling you they aren't playing around that possibility. Play that planeswalker and you may very well ultimate it because they aren't building their decks to actually fight planeswalkers.
if tef said “target permanent phases out” it would be much more playable so that it can double as a combo stopper
That would make it easy harder to remove since he can phase himself.
I think Richard’s mind for EDH is one of the most accurate and insightful ones in the community. I think he really should be on the RC or CAG.
I think he takes the format way too seriously. It’s commander, there’s nothing on the line, you don’t need to run the most efficient version of everything.
. I Like him. But He sometimes just argueing for argueing. oko is a beast and ugin is a boardwipe, where U Pick what U Exile. Thats more then a 8 mana boardwipe.
part of why i respect his opinions so much is that he's always changing his mind. he has strong feelings but he's not really set in them and thats a great way to think
his arguments for Oko where really weak tho, it's great that each of them has such a different point of view but saying cards arent good cause they wont last/get value against go wide decks is too restrictive
While planeswalkers are a lot more powerful in one v one situations (one of my opponents had 2 sorins and eventually overwhelmed my defenses). They’re still really cool lol
I'm with Crim this time. Most of the Planeswalkers you've mentioned are amazing in play!!!
My favorite doubling season planeswalker instant win is Samut, the tested ultimate to grab Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God and Nicol Bolas, God Pharoh. I think it might be what we need to see Crim play green.
The argument against Ashiok is literally “dies to removal” and “dies to player removal” lol
Once again, mornin yall! 🥰❤
One of the best 'walkers with doubling season HAS to be Tamiyo, Field Researcher. Draw 3 and emblem omniscience!
Best MTG podcast! I get so excited when I see a new upload 😁
Are we never going to discuss how Richard rates every card as if every Pod is just 3 White Weenie decks? He always says "they'll hit you with their creatures" as if every opponent at all times has creatures haha. Birds have overrun his mind. Birds too strong.
@@delathenleso5793 I really like Richard and think he has a lot of valuable insights on Magic. And I agree with him on a lot of stuff, especially Secret Rendezvous! I just think this particular thing is a bit funny is all.
@@delathenleso5793 yes, always winning, but had to buy his way in. Sure thing. All tables I have played at, combat happens pretty frequently. There are creatures, generally a lot of them. Maybe one deck is combo-y-er but every other deck feels more midrange. Board presence via creatures.
@@delathenleso5793 lol Richard is easily the best player of the four? I generally only listen to his insights
@@delathenleso5793
I think most average players analyze a card by the average of their imagined scenarios, whereas people like Richard actually put a likelihood value to each imagined scenario.
I've experienced enough to understand it is very rare that a top player is wrong in their analysis, and very common that a large group of average players are wrong in their analysis. An unwillingness to listen to experts over one's own feelings is why we have things like anti-vax, anti-science, anti-intellectualism in general.
Ashiok in my muldrotha deck puts in work, the fact you can replay her and get the extra value of milling yourself alongside asymetrical board wipe and tutor hate is great
I’d say that says more about muldratha than ashiok
I play planeswakers for flavor for sure. I find that I have become emotionally detached from how long my permanents stick on the board.
I also think that planeswalkers can be highly impactful, causing attacks, creating a very clear if/then scenario on a turn by turn basis
I love how Richard is basically the "but it dies to removal" guy
There is one element about Ashiok that you failed to consider: you can self mill.
I love Ashok in my muldrotha deck because I have so much graveyard recursion that milling myself for 4 is basically the same as or better than drawing me a card. It's also a different card type for muldrotha, since I don't have many walkers in the deck. In a deck where milling yourself for 4 is an upside then I think it's very good
A card you may want to look at is Mirror-mad Phantasm. It has an activated ability that reads:
1U: Mirror-Mad Phantasm's owner shuffles it into their library. If that player does, they reveal cards from the top of that library until a card named Mirror-Mad Phantasm is revealed. The player puts that card onto the battlefield and all other cards revealed this way into their graveyard.
A buddy of mine runs it in his muldrotha with a couple enchantments that tell him to skip his draw step and he makes a token of the phantasm and activates the tokens ability, this results in him milling his entire library since there is no phantasm in the deck and at least one of the aforementioned enchantments gets played to keep him from losing due to lacking a library to draw from.
Hands down a game winning move on par with Hermit druid.
I love Ashiok. Especially since the -1 is to self mill myself AND get rid of opponent's graveyards. As you folks said, our graveyards are routinely part of our hands.
What about Grist after the impressive performance from Commander Clash Esports week?
I love that the cast keeps twisting the knife on Tomer's bad Hedron Archive take. At least he stands his ground though haha
I love how all of Richard's arguments against Planeswalkers are the reasons Crim loves playing them! LOL!
As I used to run a 5 Color Superfriends deck as my first 'tuned' list, my game plan was super group hug orientated with mass card draw and tutors for doubling season. IMO the best Ultimate off a doubling season is easily Samut, the Tested. Use it, get Nicol Bolas, God Pharoah and Nicol Bolas, Dragon God, and win the game. Very thematic!
2 thoughts: planeswalkers as bait / red herrings? And in token decks where you’ve got lots of blockers?
A few chump blockers and you are solid. Planeswalkers changes the came up when they hit the field.
Somehow missed this when it went live but Crim's face during as Seth is reading Nissa is killing me hahaha
Let's go! Love these podcasts
Hey Clash Crew- I have played more than a few super friends decks, and in my experience Big Lili from War of the Spark (Liliana, Dreadhorde General) is the most backbreaking doubling season ult combo to pull off. It hits all your opponents, and obliterates the vast majority of their permanents including their lands. It's very difficult to come back from and most of the time results in a concession from the table. You also get to keep Lili around after using it so that's nice.
A couple of planeswalkers I love that they didn't mention:
- Elspeth, sun's champion (a wrath for token decks)
- Tamiyo, field researcher (great card draw on a +1 for 4 mana, decent interaction on a -2 which you can leverage politically, only issue is 3 colour identity)
Teferi, Master of Time is amazing when there's an archenemy at the table. Everyone let's it live while you tick him up.
My personal favorite Planeswalker is probably Serra the Benevolent. It's thematic with angels, my favorite tribe, but relevant to the rest of Magic is that it's only 1 activation away from giving you a permanent Worship anthem for the rest of the game, which is so rewarding when it fires :-)
there are also add some planeswalkers to the list:
- chandra awaken inferno: emblem 1 damage in upkeep for enermies (thats the +2), 3 damage boardwipe (not working on elementals) and exiles a creature/planeswalker
- Elspeth, Sun's Champion: 3 1/1s, boardwipe (if bigger then 4 power), make stuff strong
- Sorin Markov: drain something for 2, set the life of one player to 10, controll the next turn of a player. btw IT SETS THE LIFE TO 10!!!
- Xenagos, the Reveler: get mana in green and/or red for each creature, poope a 2/2 haste, something worse then getting a lot of mana
Oh doublin season:
- Vraska, Relic Seeker: target players life is 1
- Vraska, Golgari Queen: loose the game if one of your creatures deals damage to the player
- Venser, the Sojourner: cast spell exile target permanent
- Vivien Reid: +2+2 indestructable, vigilance, trample emblem
- Tezzeret, Master of Metal: steal all artifacts and creatures
- Teferi, Timebender: extra turn
- Mu Yanling: tap all opponents creature and extra turn (wait your not an teferi, get the hell out of here!)
- Teferi, Master of Time: two extra turns
- Tamiyo, Field Researcher: omnitions emblem
- Tamiyo, the Moon Sage: get all things back from grave + no max handsize emblem
- Sorin Markov: controll the next turn of target player
- Ral Zarek: flip 5 times a coin, each time you win get an extra turn
- Nissa, Vital Force: may draw if land etb emblem
- most bolas: do things.
- Narset Transcendent: opponents cant cast noncreatures emblem
- Liliana Vess: take all creatures in all graveyards
- Liliana, Dreadhorde General: only 1 of each permanet allowed for opponents.
- Kaya the Inexorable: in upkeep may cast from hand, grave or exile without paying mana emblem
- Jace, Unraveler of Secrets: counter first spell each turn emblem
- Jace, Memory Adept: draw twenty cards
- Garruk, Primal Hunter: 6/6 per land
- Garruk, Cursed Huntsman: +3+3 and trample emblem
- Elspeth, Sun's Champion: +2+2 and flying emblem (well or why not make just 3 1/1s???)
- Chandra, Torch of Defiance: cast = 5 damage emblem
- Ajani, Caller of the Pride: poope x 2/2 cats. X = your life
there are more but they are specific on tribes or gameplan or not lose the game things like Ajani, Mentor of Heroes: +100 life, or Koth of the Hammer: tap mountain deal 1 damage to creature/player.
nissa's ultimate is one of my favorite to abuse in my atraxa deck, in combination with MLD spells
Another benefit of Garruk is that Green is now getting a lot of cards that return PERMANENTS to your hand from the graveyard. Or you can hit it off of Genesis Wave.
Only play 1 planeswalker across all my commander decks, however it's effectiveness is incredible as I don't expect it to live for long, but if it survives a single turn cycle, it's fantastic
Oko also scales with the number of people at your table who are into guys, because if you kill him then you don't get to look at those incredible abs anymore
On an unrelated note, Wizards pretty please make an Oko body pillow 🥺🥺
Richard's Ashiok take threw me for a loop.
This podcast was very interesting. I was very surprised not to hear about one planeswalker though. Also, you can play the card exiled with Vivien even after she dies. Just a little correction there.
1. Teferi, Time Raveler.
2. Nissa, Who Shakes the World
3. Vivien, Champion of the WIlds
There may be a little bias here as I mostly play mono green in my casual play. It was very surprising that Teferi, Time Raveler wasn't listed. This guy is bonkers. Holds all your opponents to sorcery speed and can give you access to instant speed wraths. That is my S tier planeswalker. The other two slot very nicely in to any green based decks!
For the record, I do have 1 cEDH deck. It runs Teferi, Time Raveler, Ashiok, Dream Renderer, Karn, the Great Creator, Narset, Parter of Veils, and Jace, Wielder of Mysteries. Jace is just an alternate win-con. The static abilities of all these are strong enough that I feel that they warrant a spot in my cEDH deck!
What is your guys thoughts on Teferi, Time Raveler?
Teferi, Master of Time is also absolutely incredible in Gavi where the loot gets you one card closer to generating a token every turn.
Am I the only one that has absolutely no trouble keeping my planes walkers alive? Just play blockers people
You can use Sarkhan renewed ultimate to get all dragons in your deck instantly. If you get Atarka and Kolaghan, all dragons have haste and double strike. Add that to dragons that give you mana and extra combats and you win the game!
Oko confirmed sick.
Crim in full villain mode talking about Karn too funny though.
Jace architect of thought I think is a super underrated Planeswalker and I'm pretty sure it's less than a buck. The +1 is one of the only defensive abilities to affect every opponent instead of just making a blocker or killing a creature, and you can immediately get one to three cards out of him against a bigger board
I have found the best way to evaluate a PW to be if it can A) protect itself and B) gain some sort of card/board advantage and completely ignore the ultimate ability. Outside of doubling season or a dedicated superfriends deck with lots of wraths it is exceedingly rare to get a PW to stick for that long on a battlefield. I like to think of the ultimate ability as a nice bonus but ignore it when evaluating playability.
I'm a fan of Garruk Wildspeaker in commander. It combos with karoo and Temple of the False God (I'm still holding out on this land!). Even just untapping two basics ramps and even helps fix. The Overrun mode is actually reachable, and the minus ability to make 3/3 Beast isn't a dead mode either.
I love planeswalkers because it punishes the playgroups that just stay back all game and build their board. It forces the group to interact more, force some attacks, and take some risks.
Chandra is my favorite group of planeswalkers, but OG Ral Zarek is the true homie. I've untapped so many lotus fields/ gilded lotus with him, its insane. I also cloned him once, and ult'd both in the same turn. I got 5 extra turns XD
Teferi goes well with his enchantment that doubles the amount of cards you draw beyond the one from your draw step.
Honestly the only good card out of his planeswalker deck precon.
You can still cast the creature that is put into exile with Vivien, just not at instant speed (unless you have another way of playing creatures at instant speed). This is because what grants you the ability to cast the creature later is the resolution of the ability.
I´m not the biggest fan of planeswalkers, but Teferi, Master of Time ist doing work in my Minn Deck. Drawing on every Players turn is so valuable in this Deck and you get Illusions to protect him :)
look at how good a planeswalker needs to be to see consistent play:
Jeska has
1) can be your commander so she’s not in your deck wasting a draw and is always accessible
2) has partner so you are not limited to mono red
3) has an infinite mana sink that wins you the game.
4) has another ability that can easily result in player removal
Nissa vital force is a favorite for me. Ramp it out early and you only need to + once to get to a reallly good emblem, not to mention the + protects her and the -3 is very good too
My favorite instant win combo with doubling season is either vraska or liliana
Jace Archetect of Thought is really good with Doubling Season, you get to grab the next best ult (depending on the situation, Tamiyo Field Reseacher is a good choice) and get extra stuff from your opponents immediately. It will often win on the spot.
WoS Ugin is great in mono red. Kills what red has trouble - big creatures and enchantments
Feels like Richard is obstinately 'playing' a character on this. His opinions on a lot of these planeswalks seems very off. Oko, Karn, Ashiok... my goodness. Richard evaluates planeswalker as if every board everyone has 2-4 evasive creatures except the planewalkers player... and that no one casts board-wipes ever. Idk.
Got to say I won a game last week with only 3 lands after a vandalblast brought me to the stone age with only a Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. Game was force very quickly into a 3v1 and Bolas went the distance fairly easy.
I'd suggest Chandra, Flamecaller as well. Draws Cards makes tokens and kind of wraths. Also Ob Nixilis of the Black oath is fine. Makes a 5/5 flyer with is often enough to defend him.
Does anybody _not_ want to Beast Within every turn? For free after the first turn? With other upside?
Would have been neat to see you touch on the Planeswalker Commanders in this, or maybe your tier list style
Teferi lots of fun with oskar, discard outlet so you always have an instant speed awnser or value at your disposal.
Nicol Bolas Dragon God has it all. Draw, removal and a great static.
Teferi, Master of Time is so good on my Muldrotha deck. I actually have ultimate him a few times more than you may think because I have a pretty strong removal.
Ugin is great on my Osgir deck. Storming off with Mystic Forge always feels amazing, and I've had games where I get plenty of cards just off of the +1.
Jace architect of thought + doubling seasom + wheel of sun and moon
Hilarous infinite that lets you exile all non land cards from your opponents decks. May as well win lol
I love planeswalkers but in commander I very much agree with Richard's evaluation. I never let a planeswalker live
Ugin, the Ineffable morph enabler - comparing it to Hedron Archive is a straw-man attack, come on! lol
Multiple Vivians also in morphs
I love planeswalkers in edh too and I think a good amount are actively good. I could list ten easy that have done well for me/personal favorites.
during wots pre release, i had nissa who shakes the world and the proliferate whenever a land enters the battlefield. I got to ult nissa when she was at 9 and then managed to proliferate her all the way to 11 afterwards. was awesome
I love Planeswalkers but I usually end up cutting them at card 105 or so for some similar effect on a non Planeswalker for the benefit of the rest of the table.
I actually think it's surprisingly easy to stick a Planeswalker but they exponentially slow down my turn as I have to juggle more decisions.
Bant Tamiyo has a great ult with doubling season. It's draw three and a noncreature omniscience emblem
You can cast creatures with field researcher's ult. It's not just noncreature
This whole episode just has me imagining Richard putting on clown makeup.
I think assuming that everyone will be bearing down on planeswalkers is largely unrealistic. If you have any board presence outside of the planeswalker, that will affect how other players react. If you just assume itll be attacked each turn, then you're assuming the worst always. If we calculate the value of every card by the worst case scenario, why play any spell if blue will counter it or if black will kill all your creatures or if white will exile it? My point is, planeswalkers are still good- and you should probably think before playing them with an empty battlefield
Its different, using a counter or a removal consumes a resource. Attacking is an "infinite" resource, its free
with doubling season the Lilliana Planeswalker that makes everyone sacrifice up to one permanent is an immediate ult