The Worst Mythics Ever | Commander Clash Podcast #37
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- The crew discuss the worst mythics in Commander. Are any of them actually good?
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My favorite thing about Avacyn’s Memorial is that Avacyn was specifically the protector of the downtrodden common masses, and Avacyn’s Memorial only protects legendary permanents.
This exact thing bothers me every time I look at the card.
@@C00kiesAplenty I choose to interpret it as how somebody's legacy can be distorted over time.
@@krisdaschwab912
"They had no marble, so the faithful repaired her likeness with wood, straw, twine, and clay."
Even the flavor text disagrees with the card.
OP that's a bug not a feature.
That card makes me so angry, every time.
20 generic mana + WUBRG: Draw a card
Seth: "Eeeehhhh, I don't think it's that bad, it does draw you a card"
It's repeatable?
25 mana per card, sign me up
Honestly I'm glad some of these are mythic as I will pull them less.
Fun y thing is, in some sets you'll still pull more of these mythics than the rare land cycle of the set. Or even uncommons in some cases. (Three visits, looking at you)
Tibalt, the Fiend Blooded has exactly 1 redeeming quality: If an opponent attacks him, they have to admit, that they're scared of Tibalt. And that is the most shameful thing i can imagine :D (Oh, and despite the existence of "Nissa, Steward of Elements", Tibalt is still the worst 2 mana planeswalker)
Don't shame my simic sweetheart! During Uro plague on standard I transitioned my Bant ramp cancer into Pioneer - but I didn't have Hydroid Krasis. Saw that lass under 1$, bought two of them from my LGS and later in the afternoon in the same place cast her for 9mana swinging with 2 lands for 10. I couldn't stop laughing it actually worked.
Nah pair it with a teferis insight or eruth to replace the draw/discard with draw 2.
@@ondrejmikes1403 I didn't even say that Nissa is bad... what?!?
@@ondrejmikes1403 I think the joke is that even if you cast her for two mana, and get nothing, that that's better than Tibalt.
Abyssal Persecutor for sure, Just hold everyone hostage at negative life.
I second this. That card is one that people are like "ill leave it alone because now I can't lose" and then they end up having to protect it and stop it from dying at all costs.
I love this card as a political tool lol
I would never try this with Archangel’s Light, but one of my favorite ways to finish a game is Syr Konrad and an Elixir of Immortality to get all those “leaves the graveyard” triggers.
@@SilverAlex92 I must have missed that one! Thank you!
Abyssal Persecutor is great! It's not terribly hard to work around its downside, and it's hilarious group hug. I'd recommend trying it out once to see how the table dynamic shifts when it comes down - but you really can't play it without a safety valve like a sac outlet or board wipes in your deck
I’ve seen an abyssal persecutor win. The person was a 5c hug deck and would go get this card to really prove how dedicated he was to hugs. Secretly it was a trap. He milled us over many turns, then zedruu/donated it to each of us for the win. Pretty epic.
Abyssal persecutor seems very political in Commander. Your opponents can't lose the game. You can use it as a way to turn your opponents into your vassals who must protect you to remain in the game. If they're at the point they'd lose without your persecutor on the board you basically put them in a position where they have to protect you while they try to find a way to win before your piece leaves the board.
From first hand experience, my group atleast all refuse to be zombie puppets. They instantly start trying to kill me or my demon so they can die in peace.
I tried so hard to make Rowdy Crew work when I got an invite to the Arena beta, because naturally I pulled 2 of these and couldn't afford to craft Rekindling Phoenixes. My reaction every time: "Please, please, please, NOOOO". I can actually remember the one time I got the counters, and then I still lost.
Every time I got the counters I won everytime I didn't I lost. Absolutely love that pirate ( :
Absolutely the most mediocre of the whole list. Just why the hell is it a mythic? At least some of these are interesting but this or Seraphic Greatsword are bad and boring
This was one of the only Red mythics I had at one point and I'd chuck it in Red aggro decks, I'm pretty sure the one or two times I actually got counters on it, it was from discarding a few spells that would've won me the game.
@@JulianHernandez-tn5gu I mean, it is still a 3/3 for 4 mana with net draw a card. That puts it above many truly unplayable/useless cards.
@@jrjamesson yeah. It's not awful it's just extremely boring
Seth's face when crim said he's tutored for decent into madness is the best.
I've done that as well. It was one of my go-tos in my Liliana, Heretical Healer deck. My playgroup loves to just shove out permanents, and I had a nice little horde of zombies on top of the rest of my board. Ended up having a full board and my opponents didn't have a hand or board.
Phil is always a fun and interesting perspective. I love when he is on these Podcasts. PHIL, you are a treasure!
@Crim / 1:14:51
There's a big difference between: #1: "Indestructible -- Other legendary permanents have indestructible" and #2: "Legendary permanents you control have indestructible" which is: the card itself has the keyword indestructible; so if at some point you have a spell which say "search your library for an indestructible permanent" for example, it will be able to find #1 but not #2.
This is also why, if Avacyn, Angel of Hope is in your graveyard, Kathryll Aspect Warper will enter with an indestructible counter. Had Avacyn, Angel of Hope been written has "Flying, Vigilance -- Permanents you control are indestructible", Kathrill would not be getting the indestructible counter.
Seraphic Greatsword: I don't think it's really all that bad, but being a colored artifact is always a bad thing if you want to run an equipment alongside Swords of X and Y. It's a problem with Godsend too and that card is actually kind of impossible to attack into.
Rowdy Crew: Think of it like a Balduvian Horde that isn't quite as bad. It actually nets you a card instead of just mind rotting you. I think it's actually on the cusp of playability.
I agree about the greatsword, I run it in a Rograkh and Ardenn partner deck and it’s decent enough in there
It doesn't actually net you a card though, you end with the same amount of cards as you started with (since casting rowdy itself is minus 1). It's like, really really bad faithless looting attached to a below rate
body(though faithless looting is technically card disadvantage on first cast) that has a small chance to be an on curve body.
@@shadowfox513 It's even with an Elvish Visionary, the body is "worth a card" so it can be considered +1 card adv
You'll never know true fear until the Yuriko player plays an abyssal persecutor
Something that I feel wasn't mention is that the mythic slots are an oppurtunity for RnD to play around a bit more because if its too OP or a weird unplayable card, it won't distort the draft experience because they won't show up as often.
If you read the flavor text of Avacyn's Memorial you'll know why it's so bad - they made it out of wood, straw, twine, and clay. The card literally says it's made of trash.
seraphic greatsword also says "player"with the most life, not opponent. So if you`re the player with the most life it`s just the +2/+2
At least its a white card. how often do white decks want to have the most life am I right??? lord does that sword dissapoint in every way possible
Abyssal Persecutor is secretly pretty good. The "your opponent can't lose" part actually means "you opponent can't win" because if somebody tries to thassa oracle nothing happens.
You can also put your opponents to 0 life and you have essentially recruited them to making sure your don't lose because if you lose so do they.
I am sorry to say I looked this up someone can still win the game if the other(s) can't lose the game through win the game cards
Yeah, I'm behind the bandwagon of this card as well!!! It's pretty good for politics and is a really efficient creature, besides, since you're on black, sacrificing it when needed isn't that hard
That's not how that effect works, at all.
You can tell how far left field Tomer is about to go by how long he drags the "Sooooooo." It was long on Tibalt. Great show!
omg Phil i’m totally with you on Rowdy Crew, we’re on the same wavelength😂😂😂
Descent into Madness is awesome in my Dimir Proliferate deck. Once you have a single counter on it, you can turn up the dial. I once I had a game where DiM had gotten 2 counters naturally, and then at the end of my opponent's turn, I added 6 counters before my 3rd upkeep with it in play.
Archangel's Light would be interesting if it shuffled cards you owned from exile. That way, it could be used with spent flashback cards, which were in the Innistrad block. The effect has really only been seen once before (Pull from Eternity), but I think it would be safe on an 8 mana sorcery.
I love Avacyn's Memorial in my Kethis deck. I run it and Avacyn and it works out for me great. I often hit one or the other with a high mana Khamal's Druidic Vow, and Avacyn herself tends to eat a path to exile fairly often, something that at least happens less to the memorial. So yah, personally, big fan of the memorial, it is almost always a perfect protection spell and lasts a fairly long time in games.
I have a ridiculous protect-the-president Dragonlord Dromoka (ajani tribal 😂) deck where I run avacyn, privileged position, and sterling grove. Boom. Ult those ajanis all the way to the bank.
For Tomer, the enchantment Wild Research would be a great interest to you. you can tutor any enchantment or instant/sorcery, and then discard at random, and its repeatable
I was wondering why I hadn't seen that for my Ghen deck, then saw the blue cost :(
Avacyn's Memorial is a budget option for an otherwise extremely rare boardwide static effect. It's not as good as Avacyn Angel of Hope, but you also don't have to drop $50 for a gigantic target. It's strong, but fair.
If that wasn't enough for you, this is an artifact. It's still pretty easy to cheat in expensive artifacts. We have Darksteel Forge for this effect for artifacts, but Memorial protects the non-artifact support cards in artifact decks. Sometimes it'll be your commander, like Sydri or Oswald, or key pieces, like Academy Ruins or Padeem Consul of Innovation.
Hellcarver Demon and proteus staff to stack your deck into a bunch of Epic spells was the coolest use I've ever seen for it.
Absoposilutly beautiful.
Can't wait until Richard comes back and sets the crew straight with F A C T S.
Avacyn’s Memorial is actually amazing in my Johda Legendary deck. Makes perfect sense.
The plus side with it is that it cannot be swordsed.
I was given a foil Tibalt, Fiend-Blooded by a friend. I play it in my slightly janky, slightly Chaos-y, slightly Devil tribal, Zurzoth deck!! Lol 😬 So, it is on Devil theme! Ok…maybe the deck is a bit confused! Or maybe, it’s just fun!
I think I can see Hellcarver Demon working as a build around in a Kaalia of the Vast deck. You have all the extra combat, recursion, and tutor cards. The biggest problem is lands... Endless Horizons!?
My favorite part is when Seth points out that Tomer HATES Gamble but LIKES Tibalt.
Easy: Hostile Hostel, since its ability can be activated only a sorcery and such is useless. You better of running a basic.
Oh right, forgot about this card. I tried it in many decks but I think I've activated it once so far, just to trigger a death trigger
Nah that card is fine jank, if you can afford playing a neutral land instead of a basic.
@@Beisser76 Hmm good point, the downside is not that bad. Not like Rowdy Crew or something 😆
dungeon descent is even worse. on arena, they changed it from 4 to activate to 1 to activate and it still sucks.
Back when 6/6 flying trample for 4 mana was a good deal, Abyssal Persecutor was fairly strong. The "can´t win the game" simply means you need some kind of removal or sacrifice sooner or later.
Hellcarver Demon on the other hand feels like you will sacrifice everything to look at 3 lands, thoughtseize your opponent twice and gain a fairly good creature that you will sacrifice next turn anyway to the next Hellcarver hit if your opponent allows it
Avacyn Memorial is worded that way because of the way people parse cards. If you have a 1/1 elf that gives all elves +1/+1, they found people parse it as a 2/2 that gives other elves +1/+1. So they just changed the template to reflect the way people think
I play tibalt unironically in my ehrut spellslinger / combo deck. It's 2 mana draw 2 and you can keep doing it during your next turn(s) or extra turns.
I would have loved to hear Richard's opinion on Abyssal Prosecutor. Congrats on your angel token!
I think Abyssal Prosecutor is secretly super good. It's absolutely unthreatening, is great as a blocker or an attacker, and it is a ridiculous politic piece. If one of your opponents goes off, they have to find a way to kill you or get rid of this; and the rest of the table will be trying to protect it, and while they're doing that you can sit around getting into a good position for the endgame.
In a Blim deck you give hellcarver away and Goad it to attack and that player is pretty much out
Assault suit it too, then you bloodthirst blade.
Avacyn's Memorial will always make me so sad :,) How could you make a card this bad I wanted something for Sisay
I was looking at Avacyn's Memorial in a shrines deck, lots of any color mana sources, and makes clearing shrines harder...but definitely its on the edge of cutting from the deck
Abyssal persecutor has never lost me the game. It helps me to win a whole lot.
4 mana for 3/3 trample, draw 1, mill 2 and toss a coin it gets two +1/+1 counters seems rather solid for me, but I am still not used to the recent power creep...
“Draw 3, discard 2 at random” is a good bit worse than “draw 1, mill 2”. You may discard cards you have in hand that are part of an existing gameplan; this makes it decently likely that those are getting binned!
With Abyssal Persecutor all of you opponents can't lose, I wonder if there is a way to use that. 🤔
I would love to see the Rowdy Crew artwork redone using the faces of goldfish crew. One pirate's bandana is even the same color as Crim's hair.
I think a 8mana white sourcery that has the effect of Platinum Emperion that gives you the pseudo emblem that some cards do would be very good and playable.
Archangels light would actually be playable if the life gain was in a bunch of separate instances instead of all at once. The most important thing for life gain decks are the triggers that happen, not the amount you actually gain.
Helvault secret tech: exile an opponent's commander and hope they let it exile (preferably when you know they have artifact destruction). Exile your own helvault. They'll never see it coming.
Meeting of the Five breaths a sigh of relief that this list wasn't made a couple weeks later.
My fix for Archangel’s Light. Add 1 word, Cascade.
In defense of Helvault, it has a pretty fun spot in my Zirilan of the claw deck. It helps store my dragons that would disappear anyways and then I can pull out a dragon that can destroy it, and I can exile the dragon in response to keep it on the field. I’m not saying it’s good, but it has a special spot in specific decks
Ok ok, a really fun thing about Abyssal Persecutor in commander (that I didn't notice y'all mention) is that either your opponents remove it in someway, in which case you can win the game again (nice); or you just keep beating one of your opponents down to 0 with you 6/6 flampler (among other things, hopefully) and when they reach 0, they have to start using their resources (until they gain life, at least) to keep you and your Persecutor alive. Then you turn on another person and make thralls of the table. At the end, sac.
Hey idk if you will see this but doing partner commanders you could make a hellcarver deck with proteus staff with him being the only creature. One activation to tutor him out, second on a commander to stack the deck and put your barren glory/ whatever other shenanigans you wanna do on top. I would 10/10 love to see it
Omg, wernog and hargilde would be great! She helps activate Proteus staff and 2 mana value engine for investigating to dig for it!
I'm glad to see people sticking up for Abyssal Persecutor. It's relatively cheap, in the perfect color to sacrifice it, and it can dissuade board wipes.
Thanks for reminding me about Descent into madness! Its immediately going into my Umbris Nightmare/Horror tribal deck!
Reap Intellect is a cranial/surgical extraction with X, which used to be a very powerful sideboard card in non-singleton formats. Regarding the fame of surgical extraction like effects, it makes sense they went careful on it and still tagged it as a mythic.
I play Abyssal Persecutor in my Blim deck and it's great with Sneak Attack!
On Avacyn's Memorial: it could maybe. Maybe. Have been at least *okay* if it gave vigilance and flying as well. Like. Actually gave all her abilities.
The "only legends" thing makes zero sense tho.
It would have been a niche card for legends matter
I know that Phil is actively meme-editing the video in his mind as everyone else talks. It's a fact.
Fun fact about seraphic greatsword I found one in my leftover bulk from opening commander legends looking for the tapped 1 colour mana rocks and went "Wait that's a mythic?!!?"
You guys do know both those demons are way more playable than my favorite art on a card deathpact angel
At first glance I saw Archangel’s light as 2W. I still thought it was expensive for its effect….
Richard should run descent into madness in his no turns tasagur deck
They completely forgot to mention that if you attack with a Seraphic Greatsword, and YOU have the highest life total, there's no way to get the angel.
i used descent into madness just for redundancy in a grixis stax deck. It was just a 5 drop worse smoke stax but it was more playable than the rest of the named cards.
If helvault didn’t say owners control it would be hilarious as a 1 mana removal for threaten decks
Most of those have a use in certain decks. I actually run Tibalt in my superfriends deck where it doesn't actually have many creatures so being able to steal everything and swing out can really throw people off. Also don't knock the 2nd ability. I've played against so many people with +12 cards in their hand and hitting them for that damage can be surprisingly impactful. Helvault can be good in Unearth decks because its exile is a replacement for Unearth's exile. You were going to lose it anyways tucking it under Helvault gives it a chance to come back at least. Kargan Dragonlord is a 2/2 for 2 that's decent enough, it's level up is just added effects and a mana sink if needed.
Ok, hear me out for the Descent Into Madness... Play Crim's favorite colors (Grixis) make tons of treasures/tokens, play Paradox Haze, Copy Enchantment, proliferate the despair counters... ???, profit. Probably put in some counter removal like Aether Snap, Clockspinning, Thief of Blood, Render Inert, some bounce effects. Davros, Dalek Creator; Inalla, Archmage Ritualist; and The Rani are my top picks for commander if someone were to build it, they all give you ways to create tokens and suffer less. I think Inalla would do the best in this scenario, run cheap wizards and changelings, build a big board, and have the backup plan of pinging all opponents for 7 with your mostly useless huge board of Wizards.
I used to play Rowdy Crew in my rakdos color pirate tribal deck in arena. And I though it was good, because you desperately needed card draw in there.
Also because it had trample it was great with Buccaneer's Bravado and Dire Fleet Poisoner.
I remember that it rarely got the counters.
Was waiting for Seraphic Greatsword. Of course this is the mythic I got in Commander Legends.
Seeing Hellcarver Demon again is pretty interesting because it feels like if they were trying to design a Foretell Commander these days, it'd look something like it. Like, Dream Devourerer foretell your entire hand, swing in, get a new board or something would be cute. Not good, but, like, probably the most interesting development in Hellcarver value in recent years imo
ok so...
Hellcarver demon + library of leng = GUARANTEE what you're able to play for free on that first hit, and keep in mind that black has a lot of powerful tutor effects. you stack your hand with insane permanents, hit them with hellcarver (use rogues passage or something to make sure it happens) and sure you lose half your things but then you immediately flood the board with your monster hand
then you get wrathed and scoop, but if you don't they're in a lot of trouble
Depending on your play group, Abyssal Persecutor can be an incredible political card. I run it in my politics deck, I usually hold on to it to play it late game, and sometimes my opponents get in a situation (usually negative life or close to) where they NEED the Persecutor to stick on the battlefield else they're out of the game. And since in my playgroup we are bound to always try to win (no scoop unless it's 1v1), it creates a weird situation where the Persecutor transform one or several of your opponents into weird zombie-slave. Flavour wise, it's delicious.
"His slaves crave death more than they desire freedom. He denies them both."
Descent into madness works pretty well with assemble the legion
Funny enough, I used to run descent into madness a lot because no one suspected it and I'd run it with assemble the legion in a smokestack style deck with smoke in it as well. It pretty much created a back up lock in Kaalia when I couldn't just smash Iona in
I played Descent into Madness back in the days in Damia, Sage of Stone, stacked triggers that I exile first from hand, then draw to 7, it was fun, for me at least.
Descent into Madness is actually part of a cycle that i hope they finish, Descent into Avernus being the fun one right now.
Next commander clash idea: Rochester draft these mythics and build decks around them. Good luck!
46:24 "How do you make this card work Crim?"
Descent Into Madness can combo with the Boros card 'Assemble the Legion' where if you play them on the same turn, and stack it Descent then Assemble, you'll get the soldier(s) first, then simply sac (it / them). Granted, it's better if you have either a token doubler, or Assemble at least one counter before playing Madness
Since nobody else brought it up, I'd consider putting Seraphic Greatsword in an Isshin equipment deck. Double up on angels with each attack. Throw in other cards that also generate tokens on attack (Sigiled Sword of Valeron, Blade of Selves, Moonsilver Spear, Captain's Claws), and have a "1. Attack, 2. Go wide, 3. ???, 4. Profit." deck.
Honestly sounds kinda fun; might try brewing that.
Abyssal Persecutor is the GOAT! Crim is preaching truth. i t's literally the first creature i put into any deck with black. 4 mana for those stats is still good in most pods, and no one will ever get rid of it because they think it's saving them, when actually it's dealing bananas damage.
I think the issue is people playing against it wrong. Platinum Angel isn't a good protection card, so letting someone keep the Abyssl Persecutor is a misplay
Archangel’s Light could pretty meme in Commander actually with just 15 cards you gain 30 life. In some self mill jeskai "casting stuff from your graveyard" deck it could be a good way to stop yourself from dying (from both milling out and taking too much regular damage.) but Yeah it is quite bad.
Shirei, Shizo’s Caretaker , shadowborn apostles, and 2 demons total: Rune-scarred gets doomsday and hellcarver casts your pile. It’s not good, or particularly fun after the first time, but damn is it fun that first time.
Helvault would be playable, and much more flavourful, if it had something like '{T}, Exile target creature you control: Exile target creature an opponent controls.'
The card I always compare Archangel's Light to is Gaea's Blessing. 8 mana to get your entire gy into your library vs 2 mana to get 3 cards (or mill it to get your entire gy) back in the library shows how overcosted that effect is.
Hear me out about Avacyn's Memorial... Leyline of Singularity. Now it really is Avacyn at home!
Seraphic Greatsword is what happens when you want a commander set to be drafted
Hear me out: Sanguine Bond > Morality Shift > Archangel's Light? It even has a redemption arc in the card names!
You could store all your ally cards away in the vault and drop them all back into play and alpha strike your opponents. But that’s a lot of work and a big risk.
Playing mono-red mythic tribal? Kargan Dragonlord: I'm better than 2-mana Tibalt so there.
Petition for a "We have X at home" week.
Seth, what if...you paired archangel's light with LIch's Mastery.
Draw 2 cards for every card in your graveyard?
Pretty good with most lich cards I concur
For Seraphic Greatsword I think it needs to be said that Commander Legends was also a limited format in addition to a supplemental set for EDH and in the limited format that card actually put in some work. I did 4 CL drafts and saw Seraphic Greatsword twice. First time I got smashed, second time I drafted it and did the smashing. It's not the best in constructed unless you are going for budget or maybe a dethrone deck or something that want's specifically what this equipment does.
Scornful egotist has corner case uses at least. Like the high cmc for neoform variants or the riveteers charm type effects
To the last question of seth about us avacyns memorial worth as a budget option: mostly no.
Lets break it down:
- for creatures
You have eldrazi monument. 5 mana does everything better then that. Yeah you have to sac 1 creature at your upkeep. But you get on top of indestructable, flying and +1/+1.
- Planeswalkers:
Yeah they are the most happy to get a backup. First you wont have a lot of flyers and second even on the ground it doesnt matter much now.
- artifacts/enchantments:
Well you mostly want to protect everything and not just the legendary options and for that you have replaysments. I didnt watch the budget options but i think there are better once :)
- lands:
Lol... Yeah you have budget options.
m15...i remember being super excited about Waste Not, and the Urborg reprint, and that's it
Tibalt the Fiend-Blooded is pretty cheap, so you might.
Prepare cloning cards, my personal favorite is Dalina, Wild Mage, because since we're going for the meme, may as well use RNG in the process.
Play Dalina, giver her Haste or Wait a Turn.
Play Tibalt the Fiend-blooded and Dramatist Puppet in the same turn, in that order. Use Dramatist Puppet to raise Tibalt's Loyalty Counters. Attack with Dalina, clone Dramatist Puppet, when they enter, choose Tibalt and give him more counters. If it is not dealt with, gain control of all creatures next turn and Win.
"Being indestructible" and "having indestructible" is meaningfully different, in that you can't remove "being indestructible".
Let's assume [[avacyn's memorial]] reads either:
1) "all legendary permanents you control are indestructible", or
2) "indestructible, other legendary permanents you control are indestructible".
They interact with things that remove indestructibility differently.
Let's take a line from Crim's favorite stabbing implement: [[Shadowspear]]:
"{1}: Permanents your opponents control lose hexproof and indestructible until end of turn."
Assume one opponent controls memorial and several other legendary artifacts. You overload [[Vandalblast]] and in response activate [[Shadowspear]]:
1) nothing gets destroyed on the opposing board full of legendary artifacts.
2) you destroy their [[Avacyn's Memorial]] and no other legendary artifact.
The spear would have to say "{1}: Permanents your opponents control can't be indestructible until end of turn." for it to nix (1), and I can't find any cards that have such wording. Permanents gaining properties through static effects is extremely powerful.
Tomer talks about abyssal persecutor as if it prevents you from winning for the rest of the game
Soul of Shandalar is much worse that Soul of Ravnica. I'd also say that Soul of Zendikar is worse.
A krikk deck with doomsday and hellcarver would be fun. Grab prof onyx and a chain of smog, etc for the 5 cards left and win on the spot.