Alex and Lee, many of us are gutted you've stopped making videos. We understand you need to focus on your personal lives, but we hope you also understand what a huge contribution your videos are to the community. The two of you had/have something incredible that the rest of the world benefits from. I hope you reconsider and perhaps find a way to balance making videos while taking care of yourselves.
Trevor, it’s wonderful to read your words. I’m really proud of the channel and feel like the content continues to provide value. My intentions are always around the deeper message that is told through the bike. It’s never just about riding for me. Always as a teacher/student. So at some point the channel was limiting where I could put my energies as a student/teacher. I hope this makes sense. I fully expect there will be occasional new videos in the future because I have endless love for the bike and this community we’re part of. In other news, Lee just came out with two or more new videos. One is on pros closet and a couple on his own UA-cam channel so check those out too. All the best my brother!!!
you guys have a bigger fanbase than you know...on my last ride bumped into a 70yr old trail builder/rider and he swore by your channel and how much he has learnt even after 30yrs of riding...Keep the good stuff coming.
Are you guys the only ones that make things make sense with sensible tools to find out what works and what doesn't? cause you guys have the best info on stuff
Thank you two gents for this, it explains EXACTLY why my left wrist hurts w/the stock bar on my 2021 Meta HT AM Essential, whereas the 60mm rise, 4°up x 10°back of a Spank Spoon 60 does not. The stock bar specs that I'm able to locate are:RIDE ALPHA R27 31,8 mm, 780 mm width, 27 mm rise. It's pretty flat... I broke my left wrist as a kid by separating the radius bone from the growth plate. The Dr's said it was very possible that I'd require surgery to "stretch" the bone of the growth plate didn't reattach and continue growing. Lord willing it did, but until watching this vid, I never noticed how my left hand, when in the position of holding the handlebars, is canted with my thumb turned more towards my body. The relatively flat bar of the Meta inflamed this, thr Spank bar does not, because science. Keep it up gents, I'm growing in skill and knowledge because yall are good teachers! Tx
You're not alone! We didn't mention it but neither of us are symmetrical. One wrist had a slightly different relaxed angel than the other. So perhaps best to shoot for a number in between.
I just ordered a Spank Spoon 60mm with 10 degree back and 4 degree up. I'm hoping it will allow me to ride more upright (not hunched over) and eliminate the pins & needles in my left arm.
I think these two guys make the most clear and effettive videos out there. No fancy stuff in it, just clear concepts demonstrated, explainedand applied.
This video made a huge difference. I rolled my bar back til it was flat. That moved my elbows down to a more natural position. My elbows definitely appreciated that
Let me please introduce you to the bars i just got! hayesbicycle.com/products/protaper-carbon-20-20-handlebar?variant=32139589320749 20 degree rise and sweep!..... 1 inch rise or drop, 780mm, 182 grams BEFORE cutting. Designed with the help of the single speed champion at the time. Cant wait to put these on the bike I'm getting next year!
Finally someone talks about it! Everywhere I have found advice just to "try out what suits you"..... Like everyone has weeks of time and hundreds of dollars to spend just to buy, ride and throw away handlebars....
This video is so important. Every rider should watch this. I learned the importance of correct bar set up by trial and error over many years. Your sweep-o-meter is a genius way to fast-track the process and save people from a lot of cost, experimentation and discomfort. Sirs - I salute you once again.
I was lucky that the standard works well. I think 7 or 8 is the standard because it will work for most. But not all and if you are outside the norm it's important to know.
Yup, the traditional 8 back 5 up, 20mm rise bars that come stock on most bikes make my hands go numb. I run the PNW Range bar (the Kyle Warner signature bar) with 10 back 5 up and 30mm rise and am perfectly comfortable all day.
I will add that wide elbows (i.e. flared out elbows in a pushup position) adds more strain to the shoulder, where as closer in elbows puts more strain on the chest and upper back muscles. Obviously not a catch all but definitely something to be considered.
True facts. A narrow grip makes your muscles have to work much harder. I came at my cockpit setup from the perspective of what makes my shoulders feel good and powerful when lifting weights, which is elbows out so that upper-arm is about 45deg from body and then lower arm straight forward from there. Feels comfortable and I can pump the hell out of the front end. By contrast, having the elbows out further starts to cause an impingement (tendon pinching) which will lead to permanent damage.
Your video might have fixed what my wife experienced for several years but could not explain it. No physio could help her. But we bought her a gravel bike lately, and Gravl bars basically have 0° and 90° backsweep. Her pain in the shoulder was gone riding her Gravel-bike even doing 50+mile rides. So I looked for bear geometry help and found your video. Thank you for that! Very glad I found you!
Such a great channel. You and Lee are perfect duo! After my shoulder replacement, I bought a Rip Row from Lee to get me ready for the season and funny you guys posted this video about bars because I just started wondering if I had the right bars and you guys just turned the light on in a dark room! Over 55 learn to mtb!
This is exactly why I change pretty much every contact point the second I get a new bike: saddle, bars, grips, pedals & stem. I want the bike to fit me perfectly. Not just whatever the manufacturer thought would fit most people. I don't run SQlab bars, but I have their saddle on every bike I own.
What a godsend! You just saved me a whole lot of money, headaches and frustration. No more trial and error. I can buy the correct handlebar the first time. THANK YOU!
I dig the cooking show format! Showing the science of how and why really helps get an understanding of all the little nuances of bike riding that add up to making a big difference overall.
This was so useful. Over the last week of bingeing this channel I’ve worked out so many things I need to change on my bike and my backsweep is 15 degrees! which doesn’t fit my bars at all. Plus I discovered a local pump track. Lots of wiggle(UK) purchases. At 49 I almost gave up XC riding for road riding but now have new enthusiasm for learning new MTB skills I neglected my whole life. Thanks so much!
This is the best tech information channel on UA-cam. Some years ago I changed my handlebars and suffered with wrist pain. Even on short 10km rides. A simple rotation of some degrees and the problem became solved for years! The difference from hell to heaven is so close speaking of handlebar rotation.
I want to thank you for putting these videos together. 2023 I trained 7 months to race the BC Bike Race and even after buying a new bike I had all kinds of issues. Unfortunately I crashed in training 1 week before the race and broke my shoulder. On the upside I found your channel and the things you talk about translate directly to some of the challenges I have been having. Thank you for sharing things I have not heard from anyone else. I will be applying RAD and your bar fit recommendations as I start the long journey of recovery and readiness for the 2024 BCBR.
This. Is. LEGIT. Did the measuring, a few times just to be sure, and kept getting a fuzz over 12deg. Sure enough SQLabs makes a 12deg backsweep bar. Local shop had 'em in stock, bam, on the bike. Just wrapped up a 10mi ride with a good mix of tech (both up & down) & flow. ZERO forearm pump, ZERO hand pain/numbness (typically get a little on the outside meat of my palms), and shoulders which usually let me know they're not happy at least a couple times during a ride didn't make a peep. They also put my RAD closer to a RAD+ from a RAD++ and that difference was so noticeable I'm pretty sure a new frame is in my future. Keep it up boys!
Great video. I have a buddy that would always tell me my bars needed to be rolled forward more and I didn't have a reason why, but I always liked it better when mine were rolled back. Sounds like I don't like the upsweep either. I didn't know why I did it other than I just like the way it feels better. This video was really eye opening to me. Thanks for doing this. Glad I listened to one of my subscribers that recently mentioned it.
Can't thank you guys enough. As a busted up older rider i really want to thank you for all the info. I am now enjoying riding more than dreading the aftermath of aches and pains. Keep up all the great work.
True about the joints, don't torture yourself, I suffered from knee pain while riding, but oval chainring solved it. And handle bar width solved my elbows cooling out of alignment all the time, now it only happens on gnarly technical stuff.
Great information. We forget how tight and compact our nervous system is within our skin/body cavity. A SMALL position change can affect pressure on any nerve in the wrong way.
Aggreed no unsweep set flat with spirit level. One trick i used from moto days was having a set of my favorite bars mounted on a sturdy platform and crank out push ups on them you soon learn what works for you ie flat backsweep i must have a renthal upper bod loved them on the moto and mtb great vid guys .
Had the OneUp carbon which only lasted my 1day and returned right away. Switch to the SQ Labs 16deg like Lee’s and its so awesome, wrist pain is gone instantly. Gosh… when will you ever run out of SuperCool videos. Keep it coming brothers and thank you so much.
OMG, I am sooo glad I watched this video. My grip is exactly the same as Lee's at 16 degrees and my current bar is 9 degrees, so no wonder I'm getting wrist pain no matter how I rotate the bar. Thank you so much :O) Now I'm off shopping for a new bar. You're videos are so enjoyable to watch.
Yes in 2024, but thank you very much for these videos, a shame not to have found them before. I hope it's not too late for me. Arduous task now to find a handlebar that adapts to my ergonomic anomalys (each doll points a different angle) ^^ Love you guys
I used to own a bowling pro shop. A high level player will have very specific requirements for their grip and it can take some fiddling to dial it in just so. Likewise, pain is a warning that you need to change things. This makes perfect sense and is starting to answer some nagging questions about my bike fit. I'll find something the same diameter as my bar grips and make a sweep-o-meter soon. Thank you Alex and Lee!
hope for your quick recovery... i know how it is just had 2 fractures on left wrist and was so down while not being able to ride.., lucky i heal pretty quick and was back on the Hill by the 4th week
@@weathdone Cheers mate. I've gotten myself a road bike now as well to get some miles into the legs. It's nice to get out and ride long distances and have some head space
This is one of the best videos regarding how subtle angles greatly affect your comfort and/or performance. Bravo to all involved in this video. And thank you for the valuable information.
Wow...seriously... I went out today, and wanted to put this to the test as I've been getting pins and needles in my left hand on XC type rides, and I literally adjusted the bars as you showed, watched the sweep come back towards me a bit, and tightened it all up again...and....boom...no more tingling in the hand!! Best vid I've seen on mtb recently by far. Thank you so much.
Nice episode. I ride bmx and i'm a bit of a geo/ergo nerd. Celebrating my first year in bmx after my 10 year hiatus. Some riders tend to gravitate on brands and does not care about the reasoning in certain specs. They just go for the brand name or what is current at the moment. I've been thinking of a scientific way to come up for measuring back/up sweep but your nunchuck method really is ingenious! One thing i'd add though, as i ride bmx, i measured it in my riding stance instead of just sitting down as bmx riding does not sit much. A a little thing that could have been discussed more (but understandable) is bar position (chicago/90°/parallel to fork) In mtb, it will have little effect, but in bmx, as bar trends start going higher than 9 inches, added height will also change the final up/back sweep of the bar and the overall set up. I'm still a bit jealous on some riders that can ride any bike you can throw at them.
I just thought hand thumb and finger numbness were part of the game. What a great video as always and just ordered a PNW Range. Keep up the killer videos Lee and Alex
Man, I've been experience some wrist discomfort lately and I was thinking a new bar might get me there, thanks for the confirmation guys, saving lives one video at a time!
I’m in the same boat - some tingling carpal tunnel like thing going on in steeper bumpy descents. In fact went online to order a new bar that’s gotten a lot of good comments in the last few years - OneUp carbon. Fortunately due to the pandemic everyone is sold out (35° rise). Now I can take the time and actually purchase a bar based on my ergonomics.
These guys are great. Explaining complex bike ergonomics in a fun and efficient way. I've watched two of theirs in a row. Learned a lot about potential reasons for numb hands.
Ok, I should jave more backsweep, like Lee 😬 I have a bad sholder (from judo) and allways feel much in sholder when out on my bike. And wrists too 🤔 Thanks for the tips 😊
I had constant shoulder issues and could not figure it out. Lots of chiro, ART, etc to alleviate the pain. These helped but were not addressing the issue…and issue I didn’t realize I had. My bars were too wide! Three rides after cutting my bars down and bingo…shoulder pain and neck strain is basically gone. THANK YOU!!!!
Your videos on bike ergonomics are great and really important! I see so many people riding expensive bikes that don't fit them properly (frame size, saddle position, saddle height, handlebar width and angle, cleat position). Some even give up cycling because they feel uncomfortable even though most of their issues could be solved by proper adjustment or an inexpensive swap.
So ya, there’s tons of great information on mountain biking out there but this is where you go to tweak, perfect, nay… fine tune your relationship with your bike. Which in turn, does wonders for the skill lessons and tips Alex and Lee provide that are worth their weight in gold. Thank you guys. My personal experience with sweep?… I purchased a Flexx Bar with 12 Deg sweep and it literally changed everything about my riding full stop.
Nice easy to understand video! I have also noticed wear on the grips as an indicator of sweep where I can see I put a lot of wear on the outside of the grip as my ergonomics are towards very little sweep. Also rotating the bars to change to change upsweep was great too. I always thought I was strange how I rotated my bars in relation to where the graphics were on the bar but happy to see it makes sense.
feeling the same problem coming in my right thumb. will change it soon. hope it solves the problem. i first thought my grips wrong, but they did not really solved the problem. on my dirt with a smaller handlebar, the problem is almost not noticeable. so it must be the backsweep
Just wanted to say hi and thanks for the videos! Found your RAD video and found what I always felt was true, I needed a 80mm stem vs the 100 I had thrown on in a pinch a few years ago. Just watched both of your handlebar vids and confirmed Im good to go with my Fatbar.
Great video. Problem is finding the backsweep in the rise you want, in the right clamp diameter, in the budget you want. Its look good, what's better for you is more expenaive and harder to get.
God bless you guys… there is so much idiocy out there. My specialized bike has bars that are wrecking my shoulders and making my hands numb. Sad that manufacturers just ignore this important issue. They are not helping their cause.
I just made myself a sweep-o-meter using the little plastic mounts that Ergon put on the packaging for their grips, tied together with the appropriate length string and amazingly I'm getting angles like Lee, 15-16 degrees. No wonder I've never quite felt comfortable on a 7 degree bar!
I'm also running an SQLab 3OX in 16degree; that brings back the effective reach (and the RAD) by 1-2cm compared to a standard backsweep which was what I needed -- win-win! Another top quality option for a 12deg backsweep is made by Syntace.
How much backsweep are you calling standard here? I was "between bike sizes" and went with the smaller one so I'm already RAD Minus with a 50mm stem and 8 degree backsweep bars that are rolled forward. I measured like they did and came out at 16 degrees, but I'm worried adding that much backsweep will shorten my reach (when I would ultimately like to experiment with making it longer.) I'm further worried that minus 15 RAD could become minus 40-50 RAD with those new bars... I was previously thinking about changing to a 60mm stem for RAD Neutral-ish (also to help keep the front wheel on the ground for steep climbs.) An extra 10mm on the stem probably won't even make up the reach loss from backsweep though? Maybe I can get it dialed at RAD Minus 30 and just embrace it... But I don't feel confident that the bars will work. I would hate to need a new frame to get rid of wrist pain, but it feels like changing to those bars could be flirting with that line... I can't really justify putting an 80mm cross country stem on a 150 travel all mountain bike.
@@deviate6420 remember that the only thing that matters for fit and handling is the position of your grips, nothing in between frame and grips matters. So a longer stem combined with a more backswept bar will be the exact same as your current stem and less backswept bars. I know everyone talks about not liking long stems, but that is only if the backsweep of your bars remains identical. It is the distance of your hands behind the steerer that affects handling, not the length of the stem itself. Imagine if you ran a BMX bar rolled back to flat, on a super long stem. That would steer the same as a flat bar on a short stem. If you get Lee’s book “Dialed” he explains this in more detail.
@@deviate6420 many high sweep bars have some forward bend near the stem, or they start the back sweep really far out to the ends. As a result, the difference in reach to the grips is not a big as people fear with most bars. Salsa Bend in 17 degree might be worth checking out. To be safe, you can buy some bars and compare them to your current bars, and see how much further back the grips end up.
@@tjb8841 Thanks man. I was wondering if the manufacturer would do that. I think their website listed forward sweep as 0, but I do think the straight section at the center of the bar is going to be a little longer. I've always kind of wondered about stems. Everybody says not to go longer than 50 or 60mm for "Enduro". You're probably right though. If I need a 70mm stem to offset the backsweep it probably wouldn't feel too different. I guess I would still rather have that extra reach in the frame due to wheelbase and stability but I couldn't have know to plan for this lol
Nice video, Ive just tried to install my new handlebars, I removed my old ones and than I realized, holly molly, there is more angles than I expected :D
Took me 3 years to get my bar setup for my duel sport bike some what comfortable. I had 2 disk and a cage put in my neck and 2 shoulder surgeries. My movement now has been shorten. Definitely going to look into the back sweep. Just picked up a stumpjumper. And man my bars are too wide and straight. Thank you for your videos!
Excellent vid . Didn’t relieve my thumb issues until I found my 12 degree SQLabs !! More precise handling as well. I would say shoot for even distribution of pressure across the hand when arms are fully extended .
lovely video! I noticed Lee's bar back sweep a couple of videos ago. I messaged him about what brand he uses as here in Australia is pretty hard to find "non-popular" handlebars. After lots of research to reduce the pain in my arms, I'm using the same brand SQlab as him, with 16o back sweep and EZI grips and the pain is gone! Thanks Lee!
This is brilliant and well-needed following my having a scaphoid injury some years back. It appears that I am also a 17˚ sweep, and I am in the process of bringing back to life a Diamond Back Axis from '91. Looking for flat bars to accompany the original early 90's Deore XT levers and that's proving to be a mission as the original bars were dead flat! Whilst I am searching, just wanted to say a huge thanks for the science and personal approach that's needed for everyone out there to avoid injuries. A big thanks!
I do rotate my bar to adjust the back sweep. Since I'm 5'1" I do monitor my back sweep and the way it is for me is, when I can manual or bunny hop easily that is my tune, without worrying about degrees. Although it may take hours to find my right handlebar sweep position.
I've been talking about backsweep with my patients with neck/back/shoulder pain for a while but this will be a great resource to show them. Cheers guys!
I already changed my bar width thanks to your advice. I didn't make your sweepometer device, but just sitting comfortably at my desk with my hands bar width apart my hands are neutral, almost like I wouldn't want any sweep, or maybe even negative sweep for my right wrist. Strangely, I always experience numbness in that hand on descents. By changing the angle of my wrists I can immediately see a change in my elbow position and feel stress on my shoulders. I will tinker with rotating my bars. Another great video!
Good food for thought as usual. One item to consider is that by going from 8 degree to 17 degree sweep it will place your hands at least 50mm further back. 800mm Bars with an 8 Degree sweep that assume the centre of the hands are 50mm from the end of the bars put the hands back 50mm, which, with a 50mm stem, puts the steering radius in the centre of the steerer. Going 50mm past this affects the reach and puts the steering radius behind the centre of the steerer. Sort out one problem and potentially create another.
The variable is not everybody starts sweep in the same place. I agree wholeheartedly that center of grips behind the center of steerer is a feeling I do not like!!!! A few days ago I did a string test on Lee’s bike with his 16 sweep and 35mm stem and it was right exactly at the steerer. I suspected it might be further back. If your rad was perfect but you realized you needed more sweep you’d need to add some stem but not much.
@@JoyOfBike I guess the trick is to find bars where the sweep starts more towards the end of the bars i.e has a larger flat area in the middle of the bars. That way it won't be too bad. Personally I also went for a slightly longer stem (50mm to 70mm) which included an 8 degree rise in order to put my hands in the centre of the steerer (using the string test). I was also looking for increased stack height and a longer RAD so killed two birds with one stone, so to speak.
I just installed my First riser bar to my new rar bike, and this helped alot! Thanks. I know a lot about Fitting drop bars, but with flats im really at a loss. Good insight!
Been researching to determine the correct back sweep as my final tweak to my new flat bar gravel bike. This video was extremely helpful in confirming the right number (12 degrees), which turns out to be the sweep recommended by SQ Lab for my more upright riding position. Thanks very much for posting.
Dudes, you guys rock 🤘 I'm 41 and just back into riding with my teenage son. Your videos really help along with being enjoyable and informative 👍. Thank you. Really love this format by the way!
Great as always! It’s so strange but I rode today with my friend who has the same frame (yesterdays new build, he bought the frame and fork cos he tried my bike and he liked it so much) same drivetrain, stem length, fork almost everything except rims ( same rim width ) and handlebar sweep! Mine bar is 8 back 5 up, his is 9 back 6 up both 780mm, it’s two different worlds! Like two totally different bikes. I can’t believe ! I sent him the video right away and said: look at this ! :) and of course THE explanation! Thanks guys!! 🙌🏼😎 P.s. does the stiffness of the handlebar counts? P.s. 2 : I saw Hans Rey with SQ lab with huge backsweep like Lee’s ! Only the legends are riding that 16 degrees ! 😀
What a cool comparison! I was just thinking i should have two of the same bike that I could keep identical except the one thing we were testing to really isolate changes. Bars are a BIG deal!!!
We used your width video which made loads of difference when we set my wife's bike up, she was constantly in pain and hadn't mentioned it as soon as we got the bars right no more pain!
Thank you guys ! I've been thinking about getting a wide flat bar, but thanks to your information I've been able to figure out with a couple of pencils and an angle measure, that I need my habdlebar seriously bent back. You might have saved me quite a bit of health trouble... on the other hand an orthopedic practitioner just lost some consulting money.
Thanks for the video. So important to make your bike fit you. I was like Lee when I raced that if I thought it would make me faster then that’s what I used regardless of ergonomics. At this point I am all about the comfort and making it fun to be on the bike. I have cut my bars down a bit more and rotated them so there is no upsweep and I have a shorter stem coming to dial in my seated reach. Great content that is often overlooked. Thanks again.
I agree. Smart people have a way of digesting complex issues into simple and easy to understand knowledge. You have that. Thanks for all the knowledge. I am convinced Lee is an 8th Dan Shaolin master of mountain biking 👍 Alex too, but you present information so entertaining, you should be in syndicated TV imo. 👍
Great video! Never paid much attention to up/back sweep, only focused on the rise! Just went to a 3" rise protaper and it's awesome, now I need to do the pencil trick and see how it stacks up to my ergonomics!
I have experimented a lot with backsweep and noticed that the correct backsweep will also take pressure off of the elbows and reduce tendonitis/tennis elbow from riding.
I watched this last week and thought about it on my ride yesterday. I realised my sweep angle means my hand only has a natural contact on the ball of my thumb, which eventually give me pins and needles in my hand and arm. Measured up, and ordered myself a 12 degree sweep. Lets see how it goes!
@@djUsurper It made a big difference. Much more comfortable and natural as a riding position for me. It also helped that I was going from a alloy bar to a carbon bar.
I would watch this even if I wouldn't have hands. Like a fish or something..
HAHAHAHA. I love the image. In your tank. Bumping the glass. Trying to get your owner to click on Joy of Bike. Cheers!
I can't believe how much wisdom I get here that exists absolutely nowhere else.
Alex and Lee, many of us are gutted you've stopped making videos. We understand you need to focus on your personal lives, but we hope you also understand what a huge contribution your videos are to the community. The two of you had/have something incredible that the rest of the world benefits from. I hope you reconsider and perhaps find a way to balance making videos while taking care of yourselves.
Trevor, it’s wonderful to read your words. I’m really proud of the channel and feel like the content continues to provide value. My intentions are always around the deeper message that is told through the bike. It’s never just about riding for me. Always as a teacher/student. So at some point the channel was limiting where I could put my energies as a student/teacher. I hope this makes sense. I fully expect there will be occasional new videos in the future because I have endless love for the bike and this community we’re part of. In other news, Lee just came out with two or more new videos. One is on pros closet and a couple on his own UA-cam channel so check those out too. All the best my brother!!!
@@JoyOfBike Thanks for replying. Best of luck on your road ride and stay safe.
you guys have a bigger fanbase than you know...on my last ride bumped into a 70yr old trail builder/rider and he swore by your channel and how much he has learnt even after 30yrs of riding...Keep the good stuff coming.
That is awesome!
Are you guys the only ones that make things make sense with sensible tools to find out what works and what doesn't? cause you guys have the best info on stuff
Thank you two gents for this, it explains EXACTLY why my left wrist hurts w/the stock bar on my 2021 Meta HT AM Essential, whereas the 60mm rise, 4°up x 10°back of a Spank Spoon 60 does not.
The stock bar specs that I'm able to locate are:RIDE ALPHA R27 31,8 mm, 780 mm width, 27 mm rise. It's pretty flat...
I broke my left wrist as a kid by separating the radius bone from the growth plate. The Dr's said it was very possible that I'd require surgery to "stretch" the bone of the growth plate didn't reattach and continue growing. Lord willing it did, but until watching this vid, I never noticed how my left hand, when in the position of holding the handlebars, is canted with my thumb turned more towards my body.
The relatively flat bar of the Meta inflamed this, thr Spank bar does not, because science.
Keep it up gents, I'm growing in skill and knowledge because yall are good teachers!
Tx
You're not alone! We didn't mention it but neither of us are symmetrical. One wrist had a slightly different relaxed angel than the other. So perhaps best to shoot for a number in between.
I just ordered a Spank Spoon 60mm with 10 degree back and 4 degree up. I'm hoping it will allow me to ride more upright (not hunched over) and eliminate the pins & needles in my left arm.
I think these two guys make the most clear and effettive videos out there. No fancy stuff in it, just clear concepts demonstrated, explainedand applied.
This video made a huge difference. I rolled my bar back til it was flat. That moved my elbows down to a more natural position. My elbows definitely appreciated that
Wonderful!
Had a private call with Lee and my SQLAB bars arrived just today. Looking forward to finding out how they feel.
Let us know! 12 or 16?
Let me please introduce you to the bars i just got!
hayesbicycle.com/products/protaper-carbon-20-20-handlebar?variant=32139589320749
20 degree rise and sweep!..... 1 inch rise or drop, 780mm, 182 grams BEFORE cutting. Designed with the help of the single speed champion at the time.
Cant wait to put these on the bike I'm getting next year!
Guys, you've changed my rider (and friends) life so many times. Can't thank you enough !
This means a lot!!! Thank you!
This video was amazing! I don't think I've seen anyone been able to explain or tackle sweep like this!
Fantastic job once again. You guys tackle so many important issues and bring it down to earth for amateurs like me. Thank you!
Our pleasure!
Some of the consistently best MTB content period. My riding improves with every video released.
Wow, thanks!
This is my favorite channel on youtube right now
Finally someone talks about it! Everywhere I have found advice just to "try out what suits you"..... Like everyone has weeks of time and hundreds of dollars to spend just to buy, ride and throw away handlebars....
This video is so important. Every rider should watch this. I learned the importance of correct bar set up by trial and error over many years.
Your sweep-o-meter is a genius way to fast-track the process and save people from a lot of cost, experimentation and discomfort.
Sirs - I salute you once again.
I was lucky that the standard works well. I think 7 or 8 is the standard because it will work for most. But not all and if you are outside the norm it's important to know.
Yup, the traditional 8 back 5 up, 20mm rise bars that come stock on most bikes make my hands go numb. I run the PNW Range bar (the Kyle Warner signature bar) with 10 back 5 up and 30mm rise and am perfectly comfortable all day.
I will add that wide elbows (i.e. flared out elbows in a pushup position) adds more strain to the shoulder, where as closer in elbows puts more strain on the chest and upper back muscles. Obviously not a catch all but definitely something to be considered.
True facts. A narrow grip makes your muscles have to work much harder. I came at my cockpit setup from the perspective of what makes my shoulders feel good and powerful when lifting weights, which is elbows out so that upper-arm is about 45deg from body and then lower arm straight forward from there. Feels comfortable and I can pump the hell out of the front end. By contrast, having the elbows out further starts to cause an impingement (tendon pinching) which will lead to permanent damage.
Chilled breakfast vibe from this video. Plus some light crafting with pencils and tape. Perfect to wake up to!
Your video might have fixed what my wife experienced for several years but could not explain it. No physio could help her. But we bought her a gravel bike lately, and Gravl bars basically have 0° and 90° backsweep. Her pain in the shoulder was gone riding her Gravel-bike even doing 50+mile rides. So I looked for bear geometry help and found your video. Thank you for that! Very glad I found you!
I always wondered how backsweep worked. Now I feel I can make my ergonomics work better for me on the bike.
Such a great channel. You and Lee are perfect duo! After my shoulder replacement, I bought a Rip Row from Lee to get me ready for the season and funny you guys posted this video about bars because I just started wondering if I had the right bars and you guys just turned the light on in a dark room! Over 55 learn to mtb!
Awesome! Thank you!
This is exactly why I change pretty much every contact point the second I get a new bike: saddle, bars, grips, pedals & stem. I want the bike to fit me perfectly. Not just whatever the manufacturer thought would fit most people.
I don't run SQlab bars, but I have their saddle on every bike I own.
Very nice saddles.
Very nice saddles.
I use and love sqlab 30x 12°. Discovered then some years ago and this solved my wrist pain when riding 👍
Same here. Best upgrade ever. I also have a 610 saddle on the way. Really good stuff.
Maximum Joy... that's why I watch this channel! Love the conversations and honest break downs. Cheers and thanks guys 🤙🏻
What a godsend! You just saved me a whole lot of money, headaches and frustration. No more trial and error. I can buy the correct handlebar the first time. THANK YOU!
I dig the cooking show format! Showing the science of how and why really helps get an understanding of all the little nuances of bike riding that add up to making a big difference overall.
This was so useful. Over the last week of bingeing this channel I’ve worked out so many things I need to change on my bike and my backsweep is 15 degrees! which doesn’t fit my bars at all. Plus I discovered a local pump track. Lots of wiggle(UK) purchases. At 49 I almost gave up XC riding for road riding but now have new enthusiasm for learning new MTB skills I neglected my whole life. Thanks so much!
This is the best tech information channel on UA-cam. Some years ago I changed my handlebars and suffered with wrist pain. Even on short 10km rides. A simple rotation of some degrees and the problem became solved for years! The difference from hell to heaven is so close speaking of handlebar rotation.
I want to thank you for putting these videos together. 2023 I trained 7 months to race the BC Bike Race and even after buying a new bike I had all kinds of issues. Unfortunately I crashed in training 1 week before the race and broke my shoulder. On the upside I found your channel and the things you talk about translate directly to some of the challenges I have been having. Thank you for sharing things I have not heard from anyone else. I will be applying RAD and your bar fit recommendations as I start the long journey of recovery and readiness for the 2024 BCBR.
This. Is. LEGIT. Did the measuring, a few times just to be sure, and kept getting a fuzz over 12deg. Sure enough SQLabs makes a 12deg backsweep bar. Local shop had 'em in stock, bam, on the bike. Just wrapped up a 10mi ride with a good mix of tech (both up & down) & flow. ZERO forearm pump, ZERO hand pain/numbness (typically get a little on the outside meat of my palms), and shoulders which usually let me know they're not happy at least a couple times during a ride didn't make a peep. They also put my RAD closer to a RAD+ from a RAD++ and that difference was so noticeable I'm pretty sure a new frame is in my future. Keep it up boys!
Loved reading this. Thanks.
Yes!
Yes!
Great video. I have a buddy that would always tell me my bars needed to be rolled forward more and I didn't have a reason why, but I always liked it better when mine were rolled back. Sounds like I don't like the upsweep either. I didn't know why I did it other than I just like the way it feels better. This video was really eye opening to me. Thanks for doing this. Glad I listened to one of my subscribers that recently mentioned it.
Can't thank you guys enough. As a busted up older rider i really want to thank you for all the info. I am now enjoying riding more than dreading the aftermath of aches and pains. Keep up all the great work.
YESBRO!!!
True about the joints, don't torture yourself, I suffered from knee pain while riding, but oval chainring solved it. And handle bar width solved my elbows cooling out of alignment all the time, now it only happens on gnarly technical stuff.
Great information. We forget how tight and compact our nervous system is within our skin/body cavity. A SMALL position change can affect pressure on any nerve in the wrong way.
Aggreed no unsweep set flat with spirit level.
One trick i used from moto days was having a set of my favorite bars mounted on a sturdy platform and crank out push ups on them you soon learn what works for you ie flat backsweep i must have a renthal upper bod loved them on the moto and mtb great vid guys .
THANK YOU for this video: BEST help for selecting the right backsweep
Had the OneUp carbon which only lasted my 1day and returned right away. Switch to the SQ Labs 16deg like Lee’s and its so awesome, wrist pain is gone instantly. Gosh… when will you ever run out of SuperCool videos. Keep it coming brothers and thank you so much.
We will never run out!
OMG, I am sooo glad I watched this video. My grip is exactly the same as Lee's at 16 degrees and my current bar is 9 degrees, so no wonder I'm getting wrist pain no matter how I rotate the bar. Thank you so much :O) Now I'm off shopping for a new bar. You're videos are so enjoyable to watch.
Yes in 2024, but thank you very much for these videos, a shame not to have found them before. I hope it's not too late for me. Arduous task now to find a handlebar that adapts to my ergonomic anomalys (each doll points a different angle) ^^ Love you guys
I used to own a bowling pro shop. A high level player will have very specific requirements for their grip and it can take some fiddling to dial it in just so. Likewise, pain is a warning that you need to change things. This makes perfect sense and is starting to answer some nagging questions about my bike fit. I'll find something the same diameter as my bar grips and make a sweep-o-meter soon.
Thank you Alex and Lee!
Once I've recovered from AC joint reco. This is my next mission! Thanks again guys!
hope for your quick recovery... i know how it is just had 2 fractures on left wrist and was so down while not being able to ride.., lucky i heal pretty quick and was back on the Hill by the 4th week
@@weathdone Cheers mate. I've gotten myself a road bike now as well to get some miles into the legs. It's nice to get out and ride long distances and have some head space
@@darrenmcintyre3689 no doubt brotha stay safe out there....
This is one of the best videos regarding how subtle angles greatly affect your comfort and/or performance. Bravo to all involved in this video. And thank you for the valuable information.
This... was awesome. You guys are smashing it.
Wow...seriously... I went out today, and wanted to put this to the test as I've been getting pins and needles in my left hand on XC type rides, and I literally adjusted the bars as you showed, watched the sweep come back towards me a bit, and tightened it all up again...and....boom...no more tingling in the hand!!
Best vid I've seen on mtb recently by far. Thank you so much.
This channel is just so fresh and dope as the young kids used to say! You guys keep killing it! Love just a different kind of show on the same topic!
Nice episode.
I ride bmx and i'm a bit of a geo/ergo nerd. Celebrating my first year in bmx after my 10 year hiatus.
Some riders tend to gravitate on brands and does not care about the reasoning in certain specs. They just go for the brand name or what is current at the moment.
I've been thinking of a scientific way to come up for measuring back/up sweep but your nunchuck method really is ingenious!
One thing i'd add though, as i ride bmx, i measured it in my riding stance instead of just sitting down as bmx riding does not sit much.
A a little thing that could have been discussed more (but understandable) is bar position (chicago/90°/parallel to fork)
In mtb, it will have little effect, but in bmx, as bar trends start going higher than 9 inches, added height will also change the final up/back sweep of the bar and the overall set up.
I'm still a bit jealous on some riders that can ride any bike you can throw at them.
I just thought hand thumb and finger numbness were part of the game. What a great video as always and just ordered a PNW Range. Keep up the killer videos Lee and Alex
🙏
Yup, numbness has been part of my ride. Going to get experimental 👍🏼
Man, I've been experience some wrist discomfort lately and I was thinking a new bar might get me there, thanks for the confirmation guys, saving lives one video at a time!
Worth some experimenting to see if this is a fix. Look at width too.
I’m in the same boat - some tingling carpal tunnel like thing going on in steeper bumpy descents. In fact went online to order a new bar that’s gotten a lot of good comments in the last few years - OneUp carbon. Fortunately due to the pandemic everyone is sold out (35° rise). Now I can take the time and actually purchase a bar based on my ergonomics.
These guys are great. Explaining complex bike ergonomics in a fun and efficient way. I've watched two of theirs in a row. Learned a lot about potential reasons for numb hands.
Ok, I should jave more backsweep, like Lee 😬 I have a bad sholder (from judo) and allways feel much in sholder when out on my bike. And wrists too 🤔 Thanks for the tips 😊
I had constant shoulder issues and could not figure it out. Lots of chiro, ART, etc to alleviate the pain. These helped but were not addressing the issue…and issue I didn’t realize I had. My bars were too wide! Three rides after cutting my bars down and bingo…shoulder pain and neck strain is basically gone. THANK YOU!!!!
It’s great to hear this piece on biomechanics and ergonomics. Turning 50 this year and don’t want to ignore these things.
Your videos on bike ergonomics are great and really important! I see so many people riding expensive bikes that don't fit them properly (frame size, saddle position, saddle height, handlebar width and angle, cleat position). Some even give up cycling because they feel uncomfortable even though most of their issues could be solved by proper adjustment or an inexpensive swap.
So ya, there’s tons of great information on mountain biking out there but this is where you go to tweak, perfect, nay… fine tune your relationship with your bike. Which in turn, does wonders for the skill lessons and tips Alex and Lee provide that are worth their weight in gold. Thank you guys.
My personal experience with sweep?… I purchased a Flexx Bar with 12 Deg sweep and it literally changed everything about my riding full stop.
thank You guys so much. I hope I get rid of the wristpain from my xc flatbar.
You guys keep blowing my mind!!! Thank you
Nice easy to understand video! I have also noticed wear on the grips as an indicator of sweep where I can see I put a lot of wear on the outside of the grip as my ergonomics are towards very little sweep. Also rotating the bars to change to change upsweep was great too. I always thought I was strange how I rotated my bars in relation to where the graphics were on the bar but happy to see it makes sense.
Rode my first mtb with 6* backsweep and suffered a thumb injury. Replaced it with 9* and a shorter handlebar and it solved the problem.
feeling the same problem coming in my right thumb. will change it soon. hope it solves the problem. i first thought my grips wrong, but they did not really solved the problem. on my dirt with a smaller handlebar, the problem is almost not noticeable. so it must be the backsweep
Just wanted to say hi and thanks for the videos! Found your RAD video and found what I always felt was true, I needed a 80mm stem vs the 100 I had thrown on in a pinch a few years ago. Just watched both of your handlebar vids and confirmed Im good to go with my Fatbar.
👍
Great video. Problem is finding the backsweep in the rise you want, in the right clamp diameter, in the budget you want. Its look good, what's better for you is more expenaive and harder to get.
God bless you guys… there is so much idiocy out there. My specialized bike has bars that are wrecking my shoulders and making my hands numb. Sad that manufacturers just ignore this important issue. They are not helping their cause.
I just made myself a sweep-o-meter using the little plastic mounts that Ergon put on the packaging for their grips, tied together with the appropriate length string and amazingly I'm getting angles like Lee, 15-16 degrees. No wonder I've never quite felt comfortable on a 7 degree bar!
I'm glad I found you guys. Your channel name is perfect, and really fits. Thank you.
I'm also running an SQLab 3OX in 16degree; that brings back the effective reach (and the RAD) by 1-2cm compared to a standard backsweep which was what I needed -- win-win! Another top quality option for a 12deg backsweep is made by Syntace.
Thanks for the info!
How much backsweep are you calling standard here? I was "between bike sizes" and went with the smaller one so I'm already RAD Minus with a 50mm stem and 8 degree backsweep bars that are rolled forward.
I measured like they did and came out at 16 degrees, but I'm worried adding that much backsweep will shorten my reach (when I would ultimately like to experiment with making it longer.) I'm further worried that minus 15 RAD could become minus 40-50 RAD with those new bars...
I was previously thinking about changing to a 60mm stem for RAD Neutral-ish (also to help keep the front wheel on the ground for steep climbs.) An extra 10mm on the stem probably won't even make up the reach loss from backsweep though?
Maybe I can get it dialed at RAD Minus 30 and just embrace it... But I don't feel confident that the bars will work.
I would hate to need a new frame to get rid of wrist pain, but it feels like changing to those bars could be flirting with that line... I can't really justify putting an 80mm cross country stem on a 150 travel all mountain bike.
@@deviate6420 remember that the only thing that matters for fit and handling is the position of your grips, nothing in between frame and grips matters. So a longer stem combined with a more backswept bar will be the exact same as your current stem and less backswept bars. I know everyone talks about not liking long stems, but that is only if the backsweep of your bars remains identical. It is the distance of your hands behind the steerer that affects handling, not the length of the stem itself. Imagine if you ran a BMX bar rolled back to flat, on a super long stem. That would steer the same as a flat bar on a short stem.
If you get Lee’s book “Dialed” he explains this in more detail.
@@deviate6420 many high sweep bars have some forward bend near the stem, or they start the back sweep really far out to the ends. As a result, the difference in reach to the grips is not a big as people fear with most bars. Salsa Bend in 17 degree might be worth checking out.
To be safe, you can buy some bars and compare them to your current bars, and see how much further back the grips end up.
@@tjb8841 Thanks man. I was wondering if the manufacturer would do that. I think their website listed forward sweep as 0, but I do think the straight section at the center of the bar is going to be a little longer.
I've always kind of wondered about stems. Everybody says not to go longer than 50 or 60mm for "Enduro". You're probably right though. If I need a 70mm stem to offset the backsweep it probably wouldn't feel too different. I guess I would still rather have that extra reach in the frame due to wheelbase and stability but I couldn't have know to plan for this lol
Nice video, Ive just tried to install my new handlebars, I removed my old ones and than I realized, holly molly, there is more angles than I expected :D
Where have these videos been all my life? Great stuff!
Took me 3 years to get my bar setup for my duel sport bike some what comfortable.
I had 2 disk and a cage put in my neck and 2 shoulder surgeries. My movement now has been shorten.
Definitely going to look into the back sweep.
Just picked up a stumpjumper. And man my bars are too wide and straight.
Thank you for your videos!
Excellent vid . Didn’t relieve my thumb issues until I found my 12 degree SQLabs !! More precise handling as well. I would say shoot for even distribution of pressure across the hand when arms are fully extended .
Ive always been on 8-7 degrees backsweep by 4 upsweep. Ever since I bought a 9 backsweep by 5 upsweep, im loving it , id even like to try 10 degrees.
lovely video! I noticed Lee's bar back sweep a couple of videos ago. I messaged him about what brand he uses as here in Australia is pretty hard to find "non-popular" handlebars. After lots of research to reduce the pain in my arms, I'm using the same brand SQlab as him, with 16o back sweep and EZI grips and the pain is gone! Thanks Lee!
This is brilliant and well-needed following my having a scaphoid injury some years back. It appears that I am also a 17˚ sweep, and I am in the process of bringing back to life a Diamond Back Axis from '91. Looking for flat bars to accompany the original early 90's Deore XT levers and that's proving to be a mission as the original bars were dead flat! Whilst I am searching, just wanted to say a huge thanks for the science and personal approach that's needed for everyone out there to avoid injuries. A big thanks!
Great insights. I had given this no thought before and I’ve def had wrist issues.
I do rotate my bar to adjust the back sweep. Since I'm 5'1" I do monitor my back sweep and the way it is for me is, when I can manual or bunny hop easily that is my tune, without worrying about degrees. Although it may take hours to find my right handlebar sweep position.
I've been talking about backsweep with my patients with neck/back/shoulder pain for a while but this will be a great resource to show them. Cheers guys!
Heck yeah!!
This is great guys. Really appreciate the open view and not putting forward one option as the best one. Thanks 🙏🏼
Cheers!
Thank you Thank you Thank you!!! I have ordered 3 bars and returned because not feeling right.
I already changed my bar width thanks to your advice. I didn't make your sweepometer device, but just sitting comfortably at my desk with my hands bar width apart my hands are neutral, almost like I wouldn't want any sweep, or maybe even negative sweep for my right wrist. Strangely, I always experience numbness in that hand on descents. By changing the angle of my wrists I can immediately see a change in my elbow position and feel stress on my shoulders. I will tinker with rotating my bars. Another great video!
Good food for thought as usual. One item to consider is that by going from 8 degree to 17 degree sweep it will place your hands at least 50mm further back. 800mm Bars with an 8 Degree sweep that assume the centre of the hands are 50mm from the end of the bars put the hands back 50mm, which, with a 50mm stem, puts the steering radius in the centre of the steerer. Going 50mm past this affects the reach and puts the steering radius behind the centre of the steerer. Sort out one problem and potentially create another.
The variable is not everybody starts sweep in the same place. I agree wholeheartedly that center of grips behind the center of steerer is a feeling I do not like!!!! A few days ago I did a string test on Lee’s bike with his 16 sweep and 35mm stem and it was right exactly at the steerer. I suspected it might be further back. If your rad was perfect but you realized you needed more sweep you’d need to add some stem but not much.
@@JoyOfBike I guess the trick is to find bars where the sweep starts more towards the end of the bars i.e has a larger flat area in the middle of the bars. That way it won't be too bad. Personally I also went for a slightly longer stem (50mm to 70mm) which included an 8 degree rise in order to put my hands in the centre of the steerer (using the string test). I was also looking for increased stack height and a longer RAD so killed two birds with one stone, so to speak.
I just installed my First riser bar to my new rar bike, and this helped alot! Thanks. I know a lot about Fitting drop bars, but with flats im really at a loss. Good insight!
You guys were always amazing on your videos...been watching it everyday lately. Informative stuffs! Keep rolling guys! Shoutout from the Philippines!!
Been researching to determine the correct back sweep as my final tweak to my new flat bar gravel bike. This video was extremely helpful in confirming the right number (12 degrees), which turns out to be the sweep recommended by SQ Lab for my more upright riding position. Thanks very much for posting.
Dudes, you guys rock 🤘 I'm 41 and just back into riding with my teenage son. Your videos really help along with being enjoyable and informative 👍. Thank you. Really love this format by the way!
Glad to hear it!
Can you guys do a video on rise next?
Rise is more about RAD angle. But yes. We will do that eventually.
Yes I second that I don’t really understand rise
Great as always! It’s so strange but I rode today with my friend who has the same frame (yesterdays new build, he bought the frame and fork cos he tried my bike and he liked it so much) same drivetrain, stem length, fork almost everything except rims ( same rim width ) and handlebar sweep! Mine bar is 8 back 5 up, his is 9 back 6 up both 780mm, it’s two different worlds! Like two totally different bikes. I can’t believe ! I sent him the video right away and said: look at this ! :) and of course THE explanation! Thanks guys!! 🙌🏼😎
P.s. does the stiffness of the handlebar counts?
P.s. 2 : I saw Hans Rey with SQ lab with huge backsweep like Lee’s ! Only the legends are riding that 16 degrees ! 😀
What a cool comparison! I was just thinking i should have two of the same bike that I could keep identical except the one thing we were testing to really isolate changes. Bars are a BIG deal!!!
@@JoyOfBike That would be really cool :)
We used your width video which made loads of difference when we set my wife's bike up, she was constantly in pain and hadn't mentioned it as soon as we got the bars right no more pain!
YES!!
Almost all women and children I see, are riding with bars that are too wide. (I am a bike fitter, so I look at this stuff)
Thank you guys ! I've been thinking about getting a wide flat bar, but thanks to your information I've been able to figure out with a couple of pencils and an angle measure, that I need my habdlebar seriously bent back. You might have saved me quite a bit of health trouble... on the other hand an orthopedic practitioner just lost some consulting money.
Thanks for the video. So important to make your bike fit you. I was like Lee when I raced that if I thought it would make me faster then that’s what I used regardless of ergonomics. At this point I am all about the comfort and making it fun to be on the bike. I have cut my bars down a bit more and rotated them so there is no upsweep and I have a shorter stem coming to dial in my seated reach. Great content that is often overlooked. Thanks again.
2:34 Falling grey hair-thingy from the center top to left(From Eli's side)! By the way you guys and your info rocks!
You guys have the best MTB videos out there.
SO helpful. Thank you! Glad I found this before I bought a bar based on what a friend is riding/recommends.
I agree. Smart people have a way of digesting complex issues into simple and easy to understand knowledge. You have that. Thanks for all the knowledge.
I am convinced Lee is an 8th Dan Shaolin master of mountain biking 👍
Alex too, but you present information so entertaining, you should be in syndicated TV imo. 👍
Great video! Never paid much attention to up/back sweep, only focused on the rise! Just went to a 3" rise protaper and it's awesome, now I need to do the pencil trick and see how it stacks up to my ergonomics!
I have experimented a lot with backsweep and noticed that the correct backsweep will also take pressure off of the elbows and reduce tendonitis/tennis elbow from riding.
Interesting. We never mentioned elbows but you're right!
Another interesting video! Your link to creator spring in the description is missing a 'com' by the way.
The two of yous are so entertaining to watch. Keep it up!
We have fun. Stay shreddy.
Well done!
u guys rock!!!!! simple as it is... the knowledge dropped in your vids is incredible and just wanna say thanx ...
35-45 degrees sweep is pretty natural for "flat" bars. Like Jones bars.
Road drop bars of course are analogous to a 90 degree sweep.
This channel is absolute gold
Appreciate you!!
I watched this last week and thought about it on my ride yesterday. I realised my sweep angle means my hand only has a natural contact on the ball of my thumb, which eventually give me pins and needles in my hand and arm. Measured up, and ordered myself a 12 degree sweep. Lets see how it goes!
Follow up: How did it go?
@@djUsurper It made a big difference. Much more comfortable and natural as a riding position for me. It also helped that I was going from a alloy bar to a carbon bar.
@@AlexPTwigg-ql3ci nice, thanks for the reply