I'm an INFJ, but I have *always* had a strong sense of identity. I've had my beliefs, morals, and values set in stone since a very, very young age. And as people-pleasing and anti-confrontational as I am, I *will* speak up and fight back when my core values are threatened. That includes being against rules and authority, following social norms, doing stuff because it's expected of me, and doing stuff without question. I never did something for my parents if it was presented as a demand. Even when I was 5 or 6 years old. I made sure they knew that barking orders at me wouldn't work. I'd do nice things for them as a favour, especially if they ask nicely, but nobody was ever the boss of me. I have never believed in hierarchies, or any system where one person has more rights or more power than another. Child or not. One of my other core values is that I *strongly* believe in the individuality of every person. I want everybody to have the freedom to be their most authentic self. So I can't STAND parents who try to influence the beliefs of their children. Whether it's bringing them up to be a certain religion, or bringing them up to like a certain football team. Just because you are a Christian or a Muslim does *not* mean your child has to be. Wait until they're old enough to understand what it means, and let them choose for themselves, if that's what they come to believe, from their own research and exploration of the topic. I hate parents who programme their children or drill ideas into their heads from a young age. Even worse, are parents who *choose* the child's future/destiny, whether it be their career, what they will study, or who they're going to marry. You don't make those choices for somebody else. Also parents who judge their children based on their own expectations and values, in areas such as grades, accomplishments, career, or financial success. Parents who do any of these things, in my opinion, should not be parents.
Oh my mom had similar reactions to my personhood. I am an INFJ and I married a covert narcissist, just divorced after 38 year. I suffer from social anxiety and I am trying to move on, I live in a different state than my Mom, I feel my sister has experienced a different childhood than I. She asked me once why I hid in my room, I stayed out of the radar.
I didn't experience enmeshment to the horrible degree described by the mom moving into her daughter's dorm or sharing boyfriends with her but I think there was definitely some enmeshment between me and my parents and it was not healthy nor did it help me in any way. My guess is that what many "helicopter" parents think is "support" of their children is really a form of enmeshment. Its subtle sometimes. It looks like love but is really born of a jealousy or selfish need.
I really thought enmeshment was healthy love all of these years🤦🏽♀️"Sharing is caring" gone too far! Learning it is not in recent past years has been a bombshell🤯
Great video, Lauren. So important to know yourself and have boundaries. Parents should let their children be individuals, not extensions of themselves. That’s toxic and doesn’t allow children to think for themselves about anything.
Why didn't I run for the hills when my husband suggested we should share the same toothbrush because it's what he and his mother did?!! This was only after 1 month of being married.
In these examples given it sounds like the parent is autistic and doesn’t know other people have a point of view. Autism can affect cognitive empathy but they feel warm empathy. Or has Antisocial Personality Disorder. People with this disorder will use their own kids for their benefit, they will even hold their kids back and keep them dependent. Antisocial have cognitive empathy but struggle with warm empathy. If the parent is Autistic and Antisocial the parent would really struggle with boundaries
My problem is it’s hard to remember my childhood. (I’m 35)Could that be a sign of these issues? I can remember the most obscure and weird things well. But it’s difficult to remember most of my interactions with my parents. And even so what do you compare it to see if it’s proper or not? Maybe it was needed at the time. Does it take work to bring memories back. Or someone to help get them out.
I'm dealing with this exact issue at 57, after a catastrophically damaging relationship that was (I now know) a re-enactment of my childhood trauma. I do have a few accessible memories of some of the most pivotal traumatic events but only in vague images and dull story disconnected from emotional and other sensory information. The rest of my childhood is vague impressions at most, and a LOT of blank pages, though occassionally something will bubble up when prompted through loose association with some random thing. Try to become aware of any random thoughts or feelings that surface, and invite them in, ask them what they are and what message they are trying to tell you- this is more difficult than it sounds for me, because I have many dissociative defense mechanisms that reinforce each other (I'm schizoid). You might gain some insights by looking for patterns and common themes in the things that interest you and things you find repulsive or upsetting and in situations that tend to be recurrent for you. This is a more passive technique I have found somewhat helpful, but requires time and deep introspection and curiosity without self-judgement, and it can help to become more active through journaling, art, or some other expressive outlet. Music has been a major benefit and catalyst for me, as certain artists and lyrics summon up imagery and concepts that connect with something deep inside otherwise inaccessible, while also supplying a language to interpret and connect those internal experiences with the external world. The most direct route I have found has been through writing, but it's an erratic process to date. Nearly 2 years ago a string of very stressful situations and a random trigger event cracked my subconscious mind open and I fell into a fantasy re-write of parts of my life, with archetypal characters and narratives, dialog, and poetry generating spontaneously- I have always had an active imagination, but nothing like this, these stories are in full vivid emotional color and relate clearly to themes of my childhood and other trauma history and larger ethical themes that I identify strongly with. Lauren's writing courses have helped me to access and capture more of the emerging story, and I would take every course she offers if I could afford to - unfortunately I'm finding difficulty in even paying attention, but I definitely recommend participating if you can. I didn't really begin to uncover any of this until I began studying psychology after my last narcissistically-abusive train wreck romantic relationship, somewhat by accidental introduction to CPTSD and narcissistic abuse through UA-cam. I spent 50+ years of my life, including a successful 23 year marriage and building a business, without even realizing that I was dissociated from my memories and emotions and not understanding why I had so many difficulties and atypical attitudes and behaviors, or why I felt so numb, avoidant, and dissatisfied. Learning about narcissistic abuse and CPTSD has helped with cognitive understanding of what happened, in an abstract sense, but I can't say it has directly led to any improvement or deeper access to personal memories and emotions; progress in those areas has been due to writing, courses, and learning about the Jungian perspective of archetypes and mental processes (and MBTI). I only discovered a relatable description of SzPD about a year ago, and learning about others' experience and corresponding with them has been a major turning point for me. I also have found benefit in learning about other personality "disorders" and dissociative conditions, and therapy approaches like IFS, Schema therapy, and Gestalt that focus on story and dissociation; digging into older psychoanalytic literature (Klein, Winnicot, Fairbairn, Guntrip, Laing...) and attachment theory, and more esoteric subjects like Hermeticism, Gnosticism, mythology, tarot, and astrology help provide a language to express and understand myself better after being nearly mute and mostly invisible for my entire lifetime. I haven't had the benefit of therapy available to me and don't have much faith that it would be of much benefit for me, based on the many horror stories and my studies of the commonly available modalities- maybe someday. I hope something in all that helps you find a way to make progress, and if you have questions feel free to ask, I like to help where I can.
@don-eb3fj First I’d like to say thank you for that amazing comment. I appreciate all the suggestions and personal experiences you’ve shared with me. I’ve been journaling a lot the last few years, and definitely think it helps. I also took the MBTI test and a enneagram test. Both were very helpful. INFP 9W1. The enneagram test was very helpful. It opened my eyes more to the issues I had that were difficult to see. That and the amount of information available on UA-cam. Just have to find the right people that i can understand. Lauren speaks in a language I mostly understand. I don’t like putting myself into a box with labels. But I suppose it’s helpful in some ways. To be able to find others that understand us. And to be able to get help that is actually helpful. I hope you’re able to keep finding help and growth. Sounds like you have done and continue to do a lot of work. And that’s awesome. I’m sure with enough time and work, we will get a better understanding of everything that’s lead us to this point.
@@brandoniron44 You're welcome for the suggestions, and I do hope they help. Thank you for the enneagram nudge, it's something I've glanced at but as of yet haven't had the processing capacity to explore - so many rabbit holes, so little attention span. But your mention of it pointing out unconscious issues suggests that I should move it up the priority list. I identify (provisionally) and test as INFJ, although my early experiences seem to have shunted my presentation more into my lower functions (Ti primarily) and dampened my Ni and Fe to a more passive/defensive role, at least that's how I've interpreted my MBTI functions. I'm curious if your limited access to memories might have some similar connection with your own ability to fully connect with your Fi as I have observed in reference to my Fe. I know they don't function on the same axis in the MBTI model, but I tend to color outside the lines, just for fun. I also typically don't like labels, but I am aware that every label is part of a language and a symbol for a much wider concept. For me, the label isn't the problem, it's the incomplete, counterfactual, and two-dimensional quality portrayed by the prevailing definitions and frames of reference that lead to the plagues of ignorance and stigma that become attached to the labels that I generally have issues with. I tend to be a more "spectrum" oriented thinker myself, and have taken up my own crusade to tilt at the windmills of the DSM and ICD classification systems (I prefer the PDM2) because of all those reasons, but I do see a need for grouping common constellations of traits and behaviors together, if they accurately represent the inner and outer manifestation of the thing they claim to describe. Unfortunately this is often not the case, and I spent 3 years of study without taking notice of the SzPD diagnosis because of the faulty descriptions in the sources and "professional" content before I found the description by someone who is schizoid that accurately mirrored my own experience. So yeah, the labels do have some use, with all their pitfalls, and I try to do what I can to help correct the record and dispel some of the "torches and pitchforks' frenzy about not only SzPD but the entire concept of "disorder" as a label for an individual, drawing on J. Krishnamurty's : "It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society" - if I am forced to dysfunctionally adapt myself to a disordered society, who is it that rightly should wear the scarlet letter of "Disorder" ? Anyway, that's one of my hobbyhorses, everybody needs something to care about, especially an INFJ with an atrophied Fe function and no access to good memories, so maybe that perspective will provide some inspiration for you. If you want to check out some good information on the various forms of dissociation and related effects, check out Schizoid Vision channel - she draws her information primarily from original British Object Relations research, which is applicable across a wide spectrum of adaptation to early childhood developmental issues, so chances are you will recognize something that is useful to you concerning your dissociated memories or other issues you deal with. Best of luck.
@@Gemisnotmyname there are a few different ways our brains can block things out- sometimes it can be split off after the fact, sort of forgotten in the clutter or assigned to a different pile, good object/bad object (object relations, Melanie Klein), and dismissed or projected outward onto others (Jungian "shadow"); but it can also block things out through dissociation from reality (depersonalization/derealization), by not being "there" mentally to even experience an event, and it can maybe become a chronic state if an environment is too threatening (dorsal vagal "shutdown"?). If large chunks of history are inaccessible as if it never happened, that seems a likely cause.
By the definition you provide for “enmeshment”, it seems that all people who grew up with Christian parents are victims of enmeshment, where Christian doctrine literally requires you to have the same religious views as your parents.
I believe INFP’s and INFJ’s have one autistic parent and or one autistic w/antisocial personality disorder. Or one autistic parent and one antisocial parent. What do you guys think about this?
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I'm an INFJ, but I have *always* had a strong sense of identity. I've had my beliefs, morals, and values set in stone since a very, very young age. And as people-pleasing and anti-confrontational as I am, I *will* speak up and fight back when my core values are threatened.
That includes being against rules and authority, following social norms, doing stuff because it's expected of me, and doing stuff without question. I never did something for my parents if it was presented as a demand. Even when I was 5 or 6 years old. I made sure they knew that barking orders at me wouldn't work. I'd do nice things for them as a favour, especially if they ask nicely, but nobody was ever the boss of me. I have never believed in hierarchies, or any system where one person has more rights or more power than another. Child or not.
One of my other core values is that I *strongly* believe in the individuality of every person. I want everybody to have the freedom to be their most authentic self. So I can't STAND parents who try to influence the beliefs of their children. Whether it's bringing them up to be a certain religion, or bringing them up to like a certain football team. Just because you are a Christian or a Muslim does *not* mean your child has to be. Wait until they're old enough to understand what it means, and let them choose for themselves, if that's what they come to believe, from their own research and exploration of the topic. I hate parents who programme their children or drill ideas into their heads from a young age. Even worse, are parents who *choose* the child's future/destiny, whether it be their career, what they will study, or who they're going to marry. You don't make those choices for somebody else. Also parents who judge their children based on their own expectations and values, in areas such as grades, accomplishments, career, or financial success.
Parents who do any of these things, in my opinion, should not be parents.
Oh my mom had similar reactions to my personhood. I am an INFJ and I married a covert narcissist, just divorced after 38 year. I suffer from social anxiety and I am trying to move on, I live in a different state than my Mom, I feel my sister has experienced a different childhood than I. She asked me once why I hid in my room, I stayed out of the radar.
You did and are doing the right things. Stay strong, hugs.
Does you mom have antisocial personality disorder or antisocial + autism?
I didn't experience enmeshment to the horrible degree described by the mom moving into her daughter's dorm or sharing boyfriends with her but I think there was definitely some enmeshment between me and my parents and it was not healthy nor did it help me in any way. My guess is that what many "helicopter" parents think is "support" of their children is really a form of enmeshment. Its subtle sometimes. It looks like love but is really born of a jealousy or selfish need.
I really thought enmeshment was healthy love all of these years🤦🏽♀️"Sharing is caring" gone too far! Learning it is not in recent past years has been a bombshell🤯
I'm an INFJ-A and my mother was an ESTP. We had a great relationship and boundaries were observed. I miss her since she passed.
Great video, Lauren. So important to know yourself and have boundaries. Parents should let their children be individuals, not extensions of themselves. That’s toxic and doesn’t allow children to think for themselves about anything.
Why didn't I run for the hills when my husband suggested we should share the same toothbrush because it's what he and his mother did?!! This was only after 1 month of being married.
Would you say his mom has antisocial personality disorder?
all i needed to SEE was the title of the video and i liked it! thanks for this!!
Thank you so much that explains a lot
In these examples given it sounds like the parent is autistic and doesn’t know other people have a point of view. Autism can affect cognitive empathy but they feel warm empathy. Or has Antisocial Personality Disorder. People with this disorder will use their own kids for their benefit, they will even hold their kids back and keep them dependent. Antisocial have cognitive empathy but struggle with warm empathy. If the parent is Autistic and Antisocial the parent would really struggle with boundaries
My problem is it’s hard to remember my childhood. (I’m 35)Could that be a sign of these issues? I can remember the most obscure and weird things well. But it’s difficult to remember most of my interactions with my parents. And even so what do you compare it to see if it’s proper or not? Maybe it was needed at the time. Does it take work to bring memories back. Or someone to help get them out.
I'm dealing with this exact issue at 57, after a catastrophically damaging relationship that was (I now know) a re-enactment of my childhood trauma. I do have a few accessible memories of some of the most pivotal traumatic events but only in vague images and dull story disconnected from emotional and other sensory information. The rest of my childhood is vague impressions at most, and a LOT of blank pages, though occassionally something will bubble up when prompted through loose association with some random thing.
Try to become aware of any random thoughts or feelings that surface, and invite them in, ask them what they are and what message they are trying to tell you- this is more difficult than it sounds for me, because I have many dissociative defense mechanisms that reinforce each other (I'm schizoid). You might gain some insights by looking for patterns and common themes in the things that interest you and things you find repulsive or upsetting and in situations that tend to be recurrent for you. This is a more passive technique I have found somewhat helpful, but requires time and deep introspection and curiosity without self-judgement, and it can help to become more active through journaling, art, or some other expressive outlet. Music has been a major benefit and catalyst for me, as certain artists and lyrics summon up imagery and concepts that connect with something deep inside otherwise inaccessible, while also supplying a language to interpret and connect those internal experiences with the external world.
The most direct route I have found has been through writing, but it's an erratic process to date. Nearly 2 years ago a string of very stressful situations and a random trigger event cracked my subconscious mind open and I fell into a fantasy re-write of parts of my life, with archetypal characters and narratives, dialog, and poetry generating spontaneously- I have always had an active imagination, but nothing like this, these stories are in full vivid emotional color and relate clearly to themes of my childhood and other trauma history and larger ethical themes that I identify strongly with. Lauren's writing courses have helped me to access and capture more of the emerging story, and I would take every course she offers if I could afford to - unfortunately I'm finding difficulty in even paying attention, but I definitely recommend participating if you can.
I didn't really begin to uncover any of this until I began studying psychology after my last narcissistically-abusive train wreck romantic relationship, somewhat by accidental introduction to CPTSD and narcissistic abuse through UA-cam. I spent 50+ years of my life, including a successful 23 year marriage and building a business, without even realizing that I was dissociated from my memories and emotions and not understanding why I had so many difficulties and atypical attitudes and behaviors, or why I felt so numb, avoidant, and dissatisfied. Learning about narcissistic abuse and CPTSD has helped with cognitive understanding of what happened, in an abstract sense, but I can't say it has directly led to any improvement or deeper access to personal memories and emotions; progress in those areas has been due to writing, courses, and learning about the Jungian perspective of archetypes and mental processes (and MBTI). I only discovered a relatable description of SzPD about a year ago, and learning about others' experience and corresponding with them has been a major turning point for me. I also have found benefit in learning about other personality "disorders" and dissociative conditions, and therapy approaches like IFS, Schema therapy, and Gestalt that focus on story and dissociation; digging into older psychoanalytic literature (Klein, Winnicot, Fairbairn, Guntrip, Laing...) and attachment theory, and more esoteric subjects like Hermeticism, Gnosticism, mythology, tarot, and astrology help provide a language to express and understand myself better after being nearly mute and mostly invisible for my entire lifetime. I haven't had the benefit of therapy available to me and don't have much faith that it would be of much benefit for me, based on the many horror stories and my studies of the commonly available modalities- maybe someday.
I hope something in all that helps you find a way to make progress, and if you have questions feel free to ask, I like to help where I can.
@don-eb3fj
First I’d like to say thank you for that amazing comment. I appreciate all the suggestions and personal experiences you’ve shared with me.
I’ve been journaling a lot the last few years, and definitely think it helps. I also took the MBTI test and a enneagram test. Both were very helpful. INFP 9W1.
The enneagram test was very helpful. It opened my eyes more to the issues I had that were difficult to see. That and the amount of information available on UA-cam. Just have to find the right people that i can understand. Lauren speaks in a language I mostly understand.
I don’t like putting myself into a box with labels. But I suppose it’s helpful in some ways. To be able to find others that understand us. And to be able to get help that is actually helpful.
I hope you’re able to keep finding help and growth. Sounds like you have done and continue to do a lot of work. And that’s awesome. I’m sure with enough time and work, we will get a better understanding of everything that’s lead us to this point.
@@brandoniron44 You're welcome for the suggestions, and I do hope they help. Thank you for the enneagram nudge, it's something I've glanced at but as of yet haven't had the processing capacity to explore - so many rabbit holes, so little attention span. But your mention of it pointing out unconscious issues suggests that I should move it up the priority list. I identify (provisionally) and test as INFJ, although my early experiences seem to have shunted my presentation more into my lower functions (Ti primarily) and dampened my Ni and Fe to a more passive/defensive role, at least that's how I've interpreted my MBTI functions. I'm curious if your limited access to memories might have some similar connection with your own ability to fully connect with your Fi as I have observed in reference to my Fe. I know they don't function on the same axis in the MBTI model, but I tend to color outside the lines, just for fun.
I also typically don't like labels, but I am aware that every label is part of a language and a symbol for a much wider concept. For me, the label isn't the problem, it's the incomplete, counterfactual, and two-dimensional quality portrayed by the prevailing definitions and frames of reference that lead to the plagues of ignorance and stigma that become attached to the labels that I generally have issues with. I tend to be a more "spectrum" oriented thinker myself, and have taken up my own crusade to tilt at the windmills of the DSM and ICD classification systems (I prefer the PDM2) because of all those reasons, but I do see a need for grouping common constellations of traits and behaviors together, if they accurately represent the inner and outer manifestation of the thing they claim to describe. Unfortunately this is often not the case, and I spent 3 years of study without taking notice of the SzPD diagnosis because of the faulty descriptions in the sources and "professional" content before I found the description by someone who is schizoid that accurately mirrored my own experience. So yeah, the labels do have some use, with all their pitfalls, and I try to do what I can to help correct the record and dispel some of the "torches and pitchforks' frenzy about not only SzPD but the entire concept of "disorder" as a label for an individual, drawing on J. Krishnamurty's :
"It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society" - if I am forced to dysfunctionally adapt myself to a disordered society, who is it that rightly should wear the scarlet letter of "Disorder" ?
Anyway, that's one of my hobbyhorses, everybody needs something to care about, especially an INFJ with an atrophied Fe function and no access to good memories, so maybe that perspective will provide some inspiration for you. If you want to check out some good information on the various forms of dissociation and related effects, check out Schizoid Vision channel - she draws her information primarily from original British Object Relations research, which is applicable across a wide spectrum of adaptation to early childhood developmental issues, so chances are you will recognize something that is useful to you concerning your dissociated memories or other issues you deal with. Best of luck.
You blocked it out. Brains do that when its painful. I have same thing.. only remmeber my interactions with kids outside mostly
@@Gemisnotmyname there are a few different ways our brains can block things out- sometimes it can be split off after the fact, sort of forgotten in the clutter or assigned to a different pile, good object/bad object (object relations, Melanie Klein), and dismissed or projected outward onto others (Jungian "shadow"); but it can also block things out through dissociation from reality (depersonalization/derealization), by not being "there" mentally to even experience an event, and it can maybe become a chronic state if an environment is too threatening (dorsal vagal "shutdown"?). If large chunks of history are inaccessible as if it never happened, that seems a likely cause.
By the definition you provide for “enmeshment”, it seems that all people who grew up with Christian parents are victims of enmeshment, where Christian doctrine literally requires you to have the same religious views as your parents.
I believe INFP’s and INFJ’s have one autistic parent and or one autistic w/antisocial personality disorder. Or one autistic parent and one antisocial parent. What do you guys think about this?
Are you saying were not born this way?
I believe at least one of our parents is autistic or is autistic and has antisocial personality disorder or + Alexithymia. Do you think so?