Merseyrail Expansion?
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- Опубліковано 13 жов 2024
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Video looking at the potential for battery powered Class 777 to allow the Liverpool City Region to expand the Merseyrail network to places such as Warrington, Wrexham. Wigan and Preston.
#Rail #MerseyRail #Liverpool
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To Liverpool Airport would be a good start....so get going Steve.
I like the idea of a Wrexham extension too. Battery trains could also pave the way for electrifying lines in small stages, to spread the cost of total electrification of several years/decades.
Bit like the chicken and the egg. Battery trains could improve services and increase demand thereby improving the case for electrification, as well as helping to the reduce the cost of electrification.
@@Rail_FocusI'd like Merseyrail extended to Preston, even if it has to be battery (Preston itself of course has OLE).
@@seprishere Class 777s could be fitted with pantographs, but could only have batteries or be able to use 25kv, as the batteries take up.the space that would be needed for AC-DC converters. I think the main issue is the single line section. But I'm sure there is a case for running to Preston.
@@Rail_Focus
There was study to get another entirely _separate_ freight line into Liverpool's port - it had about nine at one time, now down to one. If this line is down the vital port is near crippled. Post Brexit the port is projected to expand and is currently expanding in trade.
One additional route identified was opening up the cuttings and tunnels from the old Bankfield goods station on the Dock Rd to the Liverpool-Southport line. There is enough space to keep it separate not running on Merseyrail tracks. Then running up the North Mersey branch line to Aintree then up Merseyrail tracks to Ormskirk, then onto Preston and the WCML and east to Yorkshire.
Ormskirk to Preston is single track. This would need to be two track again. Then it may be worth running 777 passenger trains to Preston, but the improved line maybe overhead wires, so battery trains not needed. Also, the current diesel service has low frequency, with few passengers.
Merseyrail do not like the idea of sharing tracks, which could be a problem. But due to the need for a second line into the port they may be forced to share.
@@Rail_FocusThe Double track line needs to be replaced between Farington Curve Junction and Midge Hall, where a new station should be constructed with the new housing estates in this area of Leyland. There is also a passing loop at Rufford, this would allow a 30 min service patten.
I would have suggested try to create a loop line around Liverpool. This is due to the new stadium construction at bramely dock. If it were possible I think it would be great to re purpose the cargo line that runs from edge hill to roughly kirkdale and then connect that edge hill junction to the passenger line that runs along to south parkway. Then trains can loop along the northern line from southpark way to Sandhills, then kirkdale, and then loop back along through a large number of areas currently lacking passenger rail back to edge hill and back to southparkway. This would mean people in these areas would have easy access to central Liverpool and it would pass right by both stadiums for extra capacity during match days. A number of new stations would have to be built but the train line already exists so that shouldn’t be too much of a problem
If it wasn't for the paranoia at the DfT about 3rd rail, the extension to Headbolt Lane could have been completed quickly without the additional cost of battery installation. Why an extension of an existing 3rd rail network is considered more dangerous than the existing system is beyond me. The Chester extension was successful. If electrified track is too dangerous, then we should shut down the London Underground and the entire ex-Southern Region system.
Before anyone jumps in about 3rd rail needing too many substations, these are just local suburban routes.
An extension to Wrexham appeals to me and could be operated jointly with TfW, but there is merit in each of your suggestions.
As regards costing of infrastructure, British Rail was far more successful in keeping costs down and completing work on schedule than the present incumbents, so I think that you may have quite underestimated the budget required.
Nevertheless, it would be good to see some of this done but it will need enthusiasm to succeed by the combined authority.
As an aside, I am a bit concerned by the present unreliability of the class 777 battery units as the South Wales Metro is being designed with discontinuous electrification, also using Stadler battery equipped trains. Let's hope that the glitches get sorted soon.
The problem with 3rd rail is mostly down to the ORR guidance. Whilst it's not completely against 3rd rail there are more hurdles now. Hopefully battery trains can help Merseyrail to reach more places and improve services across the region.
Would be interesting to see the feasibility of operating this along longer routes such as the GWR Reading to Gatwick Service. If the section where there is either overhead or third rail power this could be a way to also recharge on these sections reducing dwell time at the route terminus.
A better idea would be to remove the buffers at Ormskirk so Northern Class 769's can work regional express services to make use of the third rail system there, and for 777's to be able to use their battery power. While a 777 is stopped at Ormskirk, its battery can be charged up while waiting at the platform.
Would require Norhern to lease the ex GWR 769s to make use of the 3rd rail and not sure if there would be capacity for Merseyrail and Northern services.
@@Rail_Focus The 769's that Northern do have third rail, unless I'm very much mistaken.
@TheosTrainsWalesOfficial I'm fairly sure Northern's units are bi-mode only, diesel and overhead.
TfGM supports extending Merseyrail to Wigan Wallgate (as it would simplify Wigan-Manchester routes and make it easier to convert the Atherton line with Southport services operating via Bolton), theres a few single track bridges that would need to be replaced though so it wouldnt be cheap but it likely would be a high revenue earner.
The Skelmersdale branch was costed as between £210m and £300m and was being heavily pushed by Lancashire Council in 2021, unfortunately they couldnt make the BCR for it stack up in order to get a business case through government approval. In 2022 the government rejected it and said it would be cheaper to just provide a high frequency bus link from Skelmersdale to the nearest station.
the bus isnt even that good, and no one uses it really insuitable replacement for a train service
I believe when I did the maths, that if there is a charging station at Manchester Victoria, the 777/1s could go all the way easily under a single charge. just would need charging at VIC
The City Region are looking at running into Manchester as an option, I guess it would depend if there's capacity
assuming the 777s conclusively prove the EMU plus batteries concept, hopefully we can get at least partial electrification on routes elsewhere where tight tunnel and bridge clearances currently mean that overhead wires aren't practical
Hopefully this year will prove they can work reliably. They could be genuinely useful for improving services and reducing the cost of electrification.
Would love to see Merseyrail extend to Helsby, that would be a better link to Liverpool without going to Chester, great video
Helsby would be useful.
Merseytravel want to take the battery trains to Warrington via Runcorn East, as Runcorn East is the Liverpool City Region.
Very interesting stuff - I don’t know this part of the world at all, but any improvements such as this would be great.
In the 3rd rail southern region, we have two sections of non-electrified rail (uckfield line south of hurst green and the Marshlink line between ore and Ashford.) whilst these are too long to be used by battery trains such as these at the moment, I wonder if future technology would improve to allow battery trains on these lines if they won’t extend 3rd rail.
Battery trains could allow for discontinuous electrification. Needing only short sections to charge the batteries. Then later on the 3rd rail could be extended. Definitely opens up a host of possibilities.
@@Rail_Focus
Running uphill takes more out of batteries. Electrified sections uphill can also charge the batteries.
I quite like the new Merseyrail Class 777 and I also do like Headbolt Lane station. Very nice.
Personally I do think that Merseyrail should extend to Wigan North Western and/or Wigan Wallgate, Preston and Manchester Piccadilly.
Interesting. Agree Bidston Wrexham should be the priority. I doubt there is the traffic on Ellesmere Port-Helsby to justify this (a village and a factory), though good for an experiment. Likewise the very rural Buscough-Southport - indeed I've seen a proposal for a Preston-Southport service (difficult journey at the moment) by reopening the OTHER curve. That would be diesel I presume, but if the Ormskirk service was electrified to Burscough Bridge that would provide the connection, and if THAT curve were relaid it could be with 3rd-rail electrification.
I assume you know that Lime Street - Runcorn is overhead electrified, so in theory trains could run on battery from there to EP. In fact, the Gov't has promised to electrify the North Wales line, on which most trains run to Manchester Victoria (electric from Bank Quay) so presumably this sectrion will get overhead electrics anyway? Thye same gov't announcement ruled out a Skem extension - a pity, because this could be electrified from Day 1.
777s can have pantographs fitted but can only run on battery or 25kv OLE, as the batteries occupy the space that would be needed for AC-DC converters. Although the units could potentially have batteries and run on overhead DC lines.
Ince and Elton have a combined population of 4000, whilst Helsby has a population of 5000. Stanlow Refinery alone employs almost 1000 people, not to mention the other facilities in the area including the growing energy park, which employ hundreds more. I'd say it definitely seems worthwhile given the relatively small cost.
The Bidston-Wrexham line is busy at both ends but not in the middle. Most of the line is inside Wales as are the stations. It is best to *split* the 27 miles line into two with 777 battery trains terminating at Neston making the station an interchange with TfW trains, and maybe Deeside industrial park if that station is ever built a future interchange. Then 777s need only a smaller battery set. The 777s can be 4 trains per hour while the TfW side 2. Then no cost to get the cement works trains off the line quick.
There's no way the Welsh Assembly would support cutting the line in half. Padeswood would still have to be fixed even to just a reliable half hourly service. The Liverpool City region may as well call for their services to operate to Heswall as Neston doesn't fall within the city region.
The ideal outcome would be 2 trains per hour from Wrexham to Liverpool, increasing to 4 trains per hour if demand is sufficient.
@@Rail_Focus
The best solution *is* split the line with maybe an hourly TfW Class 230 stopping at Birkenhead Nth, which it once did, or Bidston as it currently does. In time, the line can be split but with an hourly thru service to Liverpool.
As you say, to get West Wirral & West Birkenhead access to central Birkenhead and Liverpool, the easiest and quickest is terminate at Heswall, then it is within range of the smaller and cheaper 777 battery sets. All within the LCR metro-mayor's authority. Can be in service within 1 year to 18 months. Must be done ASAP. Then Upton station will be used.
Then when Deeside is built extend the interchange to there using lager battery sets, then maybe one train per hour direct to Liverpool from Wrexham as larger battery sets would then need to be bought to get to Deeside. In short, get to Heswall, as that is needed, then take if from there as new stations, or whatever, happens. The line can be a joint thru and split line. Four trains per hour maybe justified to Heswall from Liverpool but not right into Wrexham. A split will mean more train per hour on the northern section and less on the southern.
If the Liverpool Chester via Runcorn service is extended to Wrexham, a Borderlands Line thru service to Liverpool is not needed, with a split line the the optimal solution.
The LCR must not get sucked into providing a state of the art metro service for North Wales, when its own region is crying out for more stations on Merseyrail.
@@Rail_Focus
The LCR metro-mayor wants all stations on Merseyrail to be 4 trains per hour at least at peak times. 15 mins means a walk up service not needing a timetable. He can get that moving the interchange station to Heswall and bring in West Wirral & West Birkenhead onto the Merseyrail network. An interchange can be at Neston who are in West Cheshire, not Wales. West Cheshire maybe fully cooperative. Four trains per hour to Wrexham is pushing it.
*All* stations within the LCR are Merseytravel's stations coming under their remit. They are all on Merseyrail on the Northern, Wirral and City lines bar four: Meols Cop, Upton, Heswall and Runcorn East. The metro-mayor aims to rope them in ASAP. Meols Cop is difficult unless the Burscough curves are re-introduced.
Definitely a extension to Preston plus Wrexham. Issue on the Wrexham line is any delays trains getting turned back at Wrexham General. Should be ways to get around the issues with 3rd rail eg rail only live when train is in section
That is one of the benefits of the battery units, the 3rd rail can be de-energised when not in use, which improves safety and should keep the ORR happy.
Hunts cross to Warrington central while it would be nice to have additional capacity I doubt there being space with it currently being used by northern, emr and tpe.
Arguably the bidston line would be the best option considering tfw’s struggles with their class 230’s on there
Bidston line would be great, but not sure where the £300m will come from.
@@Rail_Focus possibly if tfw gave up fighting with the 230’s, I might be wrong but in the last year or so they’ve spent 30m on fixing the 230’s. That’s still only 1/100th though. Guess time will tell
£30m is the figure I've seen quoted for the purchase of 230s. They've spent a few million on testing and infrastructure and are going to spend a few million more on mods to hopefully get them to work reliably. Were always seen as a stop gap measure to get a half hourly service, but hasn't gone to plan.
Are these battery 777's completely new trains I.e different subclass or are they just 777/0 renumbered as I have being on UK rail log for the 777's and there is no 777052 showing on there but there is 152 and the coach number inside is similar just that it's 430152 rather than 430052.
Class 777 002 was fitted with batteries as a proof of concept, but the batteries were later removed ua-cam.com/video/3Y9CMo-T3rY/v-deo.html
The 7 battery variants are number 777 1XX, technically not a sub class I don't think, it was just easier to refer to them as /1s.
Definitely Merseyrail Class 777/1 batteries extensions operating between from Hunts Cross to Warrington Central and Padgate or operating from Helsby to Warrington Bank Quay
Tranmere Rovers are proposing a new stadium with other leisure and retail outlets on the Bidston Moss/Dock. It will be a multi purpose complex. Between two walkable rail stations as well, Bidston and Birkenhead North. A perfect top notch location.
If the new 777 Merseyrail battery trains do run Wrexham trains into Liverpool, Bidston station is redundant as all of its life it has only ever been an interchange station. Bidston station could be moved to behind the retail mall on the New Brighton line on the edge of Bidston Moss - yards away from the existing station. The retail mall is between junction 1 of the M53 and Bidston Moss. The new station would then serve the mall and the stadium and any future sports, leisure retail establishments, also being on the stadium's doorstep. It could be at least 4 platforms for match days.
It would be nice to reinstate the curve from Bidston to New Brighton providing a West Kirby to New Brighton one car shuttle service serving 10 stations, and maybe trains from Wrexham to New Brighton, as it once was. In the LCR trains (one car shuttle?) from Heswall to New Brighton covering six stations. Great benefits by moving a station and reintroducing a curve.
Bidston station is used by people who live in Bidston and does have a carpark which is well used. It's far from being just an interchange.
@@Rail_Focus
The Bidston station is not well used at all. Moving it over to the north of Bidston Moss will service retail and a stadium _directly._
Merseyrail do like the idea of sharing lines with another operator. They do not want other's maintenance problems. Scheduling may also be a problem if another operator wants to change its schedule, impacting Merseyrail.
Also problems if another operator's train, of which they have no knowledge or control of the maintenance quality, breaks down in the underground tunnels taking down all the Wirral lines.
The only way Merseyrail will entertain it if they have control of all the line and trains.
As an interim solution it is best to split the line, with battery trains one side of an interchange station and diesel engines on the other. It also makes it easier to have 4 trains per hour on the Liverpool side and 2 on the Welsh. To get to Liverpool from around Wrexham it will be a matter of changing trains with timings scheduled so the trains meet up, as they do at Headbolt Lane. Not a big problem for passengers..
If battery trains do serve Heswall or Neston or even Wrexham from Liverpool, Bidston will replace Upton as the least used station in the LCR. The area around Upton station is well populated so the station will be well used once access directly to Liverpool is established with good frequencies.
Even if a new station moved to that location behind the retail park, I'm pretty sure the closest station to Tranmere would be Birkenhead north..
@@georgegillies2650
But the station would serve the stadium and the retail complex.
I'd like Merseyrail extended to Preston?
Here's something I never see considered: is 4 trains per hour a good enough rate for rush hour?
I've heard better frequencies by similarly-sized cities across Europe!
Spare a thought for Wrexham Bidston passengers, service "enhanced" to every 45 minutes. If there were demand and capacity I'm sure Merserail would consider increasing the Frequency.
@@Rail_Focus Bloody hell... Poor sods.
Have you ever seen Liverpool Central at rush hour? At the very least they should add more platforms, considering it's currently just a single island platform while also being the busiest station outside of London!! Absolute joke.
Merseyrail, like many railways in Britain, seems to have been built for exactly as much capacity it currently has and no more, with no planning for the future. This has only gotten worse with the privatised Merseyrail having no material benefit from investing in infrastructure upgrades! Why spend money to expand Merseyrail significantly when you're going to lose the franchise in a few years?
I’ve said before that a Merseyrail service from Lime Street via Edge Hill to Bootle then either via the old Aintree branch to Ormskirk or semi fast to Southport would be useful, it would cut the rush hour congestion at Central and provide a valuable commuter service and if the Ormskirk Preston extension was also approved then there would be a faster link there as well. I know it’s duplication but it would also relieve Sandhills as well.
@@eddherring4972 A better plan would be to run a local service along the City line towards Runcorn.
Not only is the line already electrified and depressingly underused, but it could then be turned into the Airport line once a branch of track is built to the airport via its east side.
defo should go to crewe
Would be good, but could be an issue with top speed. Operating for long periods at 75mph could reduce the life of the batteries.
Still no toilets on the MerseyRail EMUs...
For some routes it may be the case that toilets will have to be fitted to the additional units. At least there are tank emptying facilities at Birkenhead North depot now thanks to Transport for Wales.
@@Rail_Focus I just still find it perplexing they omitted them from the 7XX units completely.
@@lolroflpmsl Merseyrail argue that many stations have toilet and most journeys are only relatively short. Mersey is supposed to be more akin to a metro service.
Can the batteries get charged off regenerative braking?
Good question, I believe so, but not 100%
Three minutes of breaking will make little impact on the overall charge.@@Rail_Focus
Mistake on the map Aintree and Old Roan the wrong way around
Oh no 🤦
Another big waste of money. Why not just electrify the line so standard electric trains can run on them. Batteries are NOT the answer. They don't like cold weather, start to lose power from day one. Long charging cycle. Short life, expensive to run. Even shorter range on cold and hot days when a heat pump is required to cool or heat the carriages.
Because electrification isn't cheap and will take decades to deliver and that's even if the DfT gets its act together and begins a proper rolling programme of electrification.
Then there's the ORR opposition to the installation of new 3rd rail.
The whole lift cost of batteries has been fully evaluated and batteries are improving all the time. Better batteries than a continued reliance on diesel traction.
I think Helsby desperate need the extention, northern operate such a terrible service its not surprise that they the stations are underused
Stanlow, must be the only station which if you get off the train at you'll be trapped all day until the next train.