I've been an automotive tech for 17 years and I have never seen anybody explain suspension geometry so well. I would say in most modern automotive shops people do not understand Ackerman angle... scrub radius etc.
Damn here I am struggling to install parts specifically designed for my car and you're out here designing and fabbing up basically an entire car. Amazing to watch your progress, can't wait to see it move!
Just designed and built my own caravan. So much trial and error with something much more basic than a race car. Not sure how you foresee and manage technical issues so comprehensively. Just awesome.
This is a great series! It's really terrific to see people who are very knowledgeable sharing their knowledge and experience with other enthusiasts. Thank you so much!
Taking the photos and making the calculations? Im TOTALLY Impressed. FANTASTIC Idea This is why race car builders contribute so much to the street car world Smart People making cars better and at the same time safer.
Hi, could you tell us a bit about your education and maybe your job? I’m simply blown away by your video’s and just curious. It shows that you spend a lot of effort in both building the car and making the video’s. Thank you very much!
Education is in electrical engineering, worked a few years in electrical aerospace also a bit in cars. Currently went back to school for a bit for software engineering, which gives me a bit of time on the side to work on this stuff
SK8215 Hi, I would have guessed mechanical engineering :). Makes it even more impressive. Can’t wait to see the project develop and eventually see how the car performs. Oh yeah, I think you’re a great educator as well. Btw I also studied software engineering but that was a long time ago. All the best!
@@GBHeiserYour saying.. that schooling/formal education isn't required to obtain similar knowledge. BUT An education is usually assumed when someone appears to have a deep understanding on many complex subjects, especially modern ones. Now include that the fact that the youtuber is relatively young and it's an easy assumption to make.
Cullen Crisp Ok maybe not a formal education and many not at the academic level. On the other hand the way he explains things and how he weights pros and cons for design decisions shows that he’s on top of this and that his thinking is high level. The fun thing is that he combines it with a lot of practical skills AND makes excellent video’s of it.
Dude, this is awesome, I just started watching your suspension's theory videos and now I've seen the whole project you've done, it's really impressive and for sure that I have to do this at some point of my life. A dream man.
Thanks, yeh I know welding isn't the best idea. Would have preferred billet aluminum if I had the extra time, but judging by the low loads this thing will be under compared to its stock application, I think it will hold up fine
@@xfmotorsports that's not how it works, that's not how any of this works....welding a cast part can lead to catastrophic failure under even light loads.
SK8215 You have seriously underestimated the loads generated in a race car, yes the vehicle is lighter than its donor parts car but racing will push all these to the limit I could not imagine the FIA allowing this onto a race track
Yes, be very very careful with stressed welded Cast parts, especially in the steering with high speeds with high grip levels. Great project, and great learnings to be had..
you sir are a genius, been watching your buildup process and what a great project, your knowledge and skills are highly commendable, thanks for sharing (SUBSCRIBED) :)
haven't heard so nice detailed info about geometry - plus that idea to demo it on the real half done axle, where ou can move it frealy, is really great. Thanks !
It doesn't seem like there's very much suspension travel mounting the heim joints in that flat direction, if you turn them 90 degrees they won't go into bind if the suspension travels farther than you've designed it to.
Doesn’t seem he’s necessarily looking for 8-12” of travel. I’d bet he could probably have 3-6” of travel per corner and still end out with a great handling car if paired with a stiffer suspension setup. Essentially end up being a big aerodynamic go cart.
Alex Vine ya, I get that, but in the start of the video it looks like it only travels 3-4 inches, and if you’ve ever seen the curbing in the corners of most tracks that will bottom out the Heim joints when you hit that curbing when used at the plane they are installed im
Absolutely sensational videos! Wow! I love the way that you used the two photographs to determine steering requirements! I hope you make another car after this one! Maybe you and the Warranty (Tavarish) can do a collaboration or something! Thank you!
I strongly recommend using the spacers for the rose joints you are using. I am not much of a racecar builder but i've seen my share of snapping the stems off of those when people hit curbs too hard.
Absolutely amazing series. I'm really blown away by all of your work. You mentioned releasing a Part 3 of the suspension series, talking about trailing link setup and other styles, is that video still in the works? I'd love to see that too
A thing I've been thinking about recently is why not put the transmission on the rear axle? Maybe the easiest way to do it is to reuse fwd audi transmission with its integrated differential and then mod the cv joints to fit the suspension you need.
Guess what? You helped my fix my '98 E55 Estate (or wagon) I had coolant mixing with my oil and was think I needed head gaskets or something, but it was the coolant passage o-rings in the timing cover! Engine saved and not too much work really. Thanks man! Love the vids. I watch every single one
that would also allow adjustment without requiring the arm to deflect. the way he has the arms welded any length change requires the arm to deflect to create a new triangle
Normally you'd design the suspension first, then your frame. You've done it backwards, and you don't have good load paths (pick up points in the middle of a tube instead of at a node). You will also have issues with mounting push rods to those spindly lower control arms.
With the engine bolted to the frame, what are the engineered sacrifical weak points in the chassis? The reason im asking is that in the event of a crash, or even light hit/rub, how do you ensure you dont completly destroy your car and engine and transmission, rather than simply a control arm?
The tubes are actually different wall thicknesses and there will be an aluminum crumple zone in the radiator area. In a crash the front part will crumple before anything else.
f1 and certain prototype classes use composite crash boxes. Making them yourself doesn't seem impossible, they are just layer cakes of carbon fiber and honeycomb. The deformation of the honeycomb and delamination of the carbon fiber dissipate kinetic energy and dramatically reduce the deceleration peak forces.
At first i thought strange that you mounted the lower ball joint upside down but now i understand :) the lower arm will be the mount point for the damper/spring unlike most road cars were the shock and spring mount on top were your upper ball joint is. that way it will prevent the ball joint from separating itself because the weight of the car will push it downward (hope i made sense)... making the wishbones with thin tube was very smart because they will only take pushing and pulling forces, no twisting forces will be there so they only need to resist compression and pulling...very nice engineering there. but if you were to fit an ARB attached to middle of each wishbone like on most road cars the tubes would bend..that is how you optimize for weight saving and efficiency, very nice
How you plan to change alligment (for example camber) in that setup? I don't think that I see points for that. Wfrom what I see there's only removal of balljoints > turning joint by 180 degrees > putting back again.
@@xfmotorsports If that's enough for you for adjustments I accept that. For me it's just not really handy. It will be much harder to setup geometry correctly. I think you can still now make it more adjustable with threaded pipe (will be heavier). It's called "Roman Screw" or something similar.
yup...saw that two...normally is used a threaded rod with reversed thread on each end and a hex in the middle (dont know how its called) then some counter-nuts...it allows on the fly adjustment with only one wrench no need to even jack the car up.
How are you planning to adjust tire camber angle as you welded third triangle corner at tire side, unscrewing those uniballs tend to expand the distance between them longitudinaly putting too much stress on material, and vice versa, pulling the tire inward will tend to shrink it, stress it again? Did I miss something there?
@@xfmotorsports Interesting. As a mechanics, working on double wishbones, I never seen that play. I might been working on those other cars, done in the different, proper, fashion, with adjusting plates, like in most kit cars , adjustable end ball joint like in caterham 7, camber change blocks like in production sport cars, but really never seen it bodged like you did so it could be revolutionary in racing class. As I said, good luck with it - you're going to need it with that 350 bhp V8 and cut and welded wheel hubs....
@@Helloverlord Guess you've never worked on a Mercedes before. If your so confident in what your saying, come race me. September at Toronto Motorsport Park. Should be an easy win for you considering what your saying
The chassis gets narrower towards the front so the suspension pick up points are not parallel to the front-rear line. I see this type of setup in many offroad cars. What does it do and how do you figure out the suspension geometry in 2D front plane please?
Fusion 360 is pretty popular and it can also simulate stresses. Pen, paper, and a calculator can do just as well though and in my opinion is itself much easier. Though if you are already proficient with any given cad software it can improve your efficiency.
Been watching alot of suspension videos. Im building an air ride hot rod so the car may be at different heights while driving. I was thinkinking of doing equal length parallel wishbones so there would be no camber change based on ride height. Would this have any negative effects?
sub'd. Planning on making my own car as well in 3yrs time after I come back from Japan, thinking of using either s54, s65 or s85 motor (yeah.. BMW guy here). and it'll be mid engine is what I plan. was thinking of the same suspension set-up for the fronts as well as you. nice to see similar thing to what I am thinking about. probably will go to school w/ in this 3 yrs or so engineering to understand how things are designed even further.
Something I would have recommended is welding threaded rod to the ball joint and putting threaded inserts in both ends of the control arm tubes with opposite thread directions. That way you wouldn't have to unbolt the heim joints to adjust caster and camber. Just crack the jam nuts loose and spin the tube to make adjustments.
Also you're going to need some sort of pivot at the ball joint end for the tubes because shortening or lengthening the tubes for adjustment will also change the angle where the control arm tube meets the mtg point on the frame.
Shouldn't those heim joints be vertical so the control arms can reciprocate up and down (more) and give the suspension/spindle more travel? I'm sure there's a reason for them being mounted horizontally, just curious.
It's stronger using them this way. No bending forces on the threads, just tension or compression. For low travel applications this is the preferred way
SK8215 good to know for future reference thanks! Will you be reenforcing the mounting points for the a arms with something similar to a strut bar? Now that I’m typing this I suppose the shocks will help absorb some of the load the A arm mounts experience at full travel? (also what type of load would that be considered on those mounts at full travel, just rotational force? sorry I’m a noob lol). Subbed for all of the good info here as I may be doing some fabrication similar to this in the future, thanks for the reply!
Great job designing the suspension. Came across this cause I'm interested in makeing A-Arm suspension for a VW Thing. Welding on cast iron that is as structurally critical as this isn't a good idea. Making steel spindles from scratch would be much more accurate and more importantly much much much safer.
I wouldn't use regular screws for the wishbone mounting but proper bolts. Also your balljoints seem to have a tad too much play. They're perfect when you can barely move them by hand. Also expect them to wear out fast.
I have a few questions that I hope you would reply: 1) How did you measure the angles while you assembled them? 2) How was the angle virtually determined with your track width? 3) How did you design the chassis based on weight distribution? 4) Is the M14 screw enough to hold the arms to the chassis and your front to middle portion chassis fixture? I'm probably going to go through all these process in making a Formula student car with a 390 cc engine probably and i'm pretty much new..
hey, I was lucky enough to stumble upon this magnificent video serie, and would just like to say that this looks like a hell of an awesome build! Also, I reckon you could easily make oval tubes if you made yourself some dies and just rolled standard tubes between two dies of a greater diameter, until you reached the desired oval shape:P
A MIG welder is wrong for this He risks not getting enough penetration with the thickness of metal involved here.Unless he has a 400 amp welder which I doubt.Stick welding would have been much better.
Yes, some of the angles are a little suss too. In realty fabricating an complete upright would be better. Or simply find a stub axle that is suitable. Toe out on turns makes a car turn better. Steering arm length usually governs that.
Yep, thought the same... Clearly not a mechanical engineer and no automotive engineer either. I wouldn't drive that car with the shown suspension design.
I know right! that weld boundary is going to be so brittle. he did even try to address the issue. Can he heat it back up and peen it then let it cool slowly in sand or something? i hope he is driving slow when it fails.
This suspension setup looks great, but if any of the arms need to be adjusted the rose joint will not correspond with the bolt hole, so to get the bolt through the mounting point and the joint arms will need to be forced which is introducing a stress point, believe me I've been there.....
So to adjust the length of the control arms, you have to remove the bolts through the Heim joint, then rotate the whole joint in 180 degree increments. Is that correct?
The motor is highly displaced to the base, there will not be enough adhesion on the front axle. If you build the suspension on the wishbone, then the shock absorbers are better to adapt the pushroad system
Impressive work on the spindles. Having done this, would it have been easier to fabricate spindles from scratch? Just wondering what your thoughts were. Thx
Why does the e55 ecu get rich overtime. I reset the battery and my afr’s get back to normal but after some time they go back to pig rich. I’m leaving the battery unplugged for a long time to see if it will help
SK8215 yeah I’m tuned I just think the afr’s get way to low over time but when i reset them it goes back to normal, the mid range is gets rich too fast over time it’s supposed to be lean in the midrange
Those spindels are cast or forged, are you sure that its weldable? for cast there are some sticks for stickwelders who does the job i dont know about mig tho.
That's why he preheats them I presume. Cast welds fairly easily, but may crack because of the temperature coefficient. You may also use silicon bronze, its way softer and can take the stress when the part cools down but is a bit weaker, so just use a thick weld.
The weld filler should be as strong (if not stronger) and more maluable than the cast iron, the fusion shouldn't be a problem, so as long as you avoid stress cracks from the temperature expansion you'll have a strong enough part.
At school they say this basically because they don't want to explain all the intricacies with welding cast, just like your parents say "that's just the way it is" (or the priest says "God works in mysterious ways").
This video makes me think about what I can do to improve suspension geometry for my 350z. Then I realize that you can't change much unless than ride hight, camber and toe...
done right they are gonna be strong and the quality of the casting I guess. some cast parts sucks since they aren't as good quality and they got air pockets but I imagine mercedes cast parts will have minimal air pockets on their parts.
True , true...theyre actually forged. And since they are hard and robust they probably must resist some bending forces also which property after welding will be probably diminished right?
I don’t think I would get in it personally, but I will watch with great interest! He seems to work by Destructive iteration on his last car... hopefully he has plenty of run off at the tracks he is going to drive at....
hello, can you guide me how you calculated the geometry of steering mount on knuckle so that instantaneous centre will be same for all the 4 wheels while turning? thankyou anyways.
Will this car include power steering? Also your upper control arm rod ends have very little thread fastened into the wishbones. Equally winding in/out the rod ends to change camber will fundamentally change both the suspension geometry, as well as the distance between the two rod ends attaching to the chassis. This will either induce stress/shear into the fastener or simply not bolt back to the chassis!
Yes, using the power steering rack from a miata. The rod ends should be okay, the minimum threads needed are 6. I made the mounting holes slightly bigger so it still bolts in and allows for a bit of adjustment. Camber adjustment is slight, the bigger benefit is caster adjustment, but then camber can be adjusted further by the three bolts on the other ball joint.
Do you think the chassis twisting forces will have a detrimental effect on the engine? Leverage from the chassis end to the block can be quite high and the tolerances in the engine are quite low. Maybe extra bracing will be needed. Will have to see if it works..
Simply incredible, what program have you used to simulate lenghts angles and all of it. Or which would you suggest. Second thing, the lenght of whisbones is based of what factor?
I know the basics of those suspension ,the problem what I have with single wishbone is about the strut take to much force from cornering .polyurethane buses will help to keep what setup you want ,uniball can be used but not for street . I was considering strut insert ,replacing twin tub to mono tube for some reason .
Could you give any advice as to the best resources available for designing a full custom suspension for a car? I am planning on building a formula-style car for track days, and will be creating almost every component from scratch. I'd like to learn more about the various suspension and steering angles you were talking about. I've got SolidWorks and can do enough in it to play with designs and whatnot before setting off to make them, so maybe that would cut down on my costs and time. I don't have any background in cars or engineering, but I'm usually pretty good at picking up ideas, especially with numbers, and making them work. Any certain books or websites to look at?
@@Avboden there's got to be some information on it, though... I mean, an average joe can build basically anything if they are able to run the numbers right. All we need are the formulas and a basic understanding how the parts of the formula affect the end result.
The thin sheets connecting the wishbones to the rod ends on tire side look a bit flimsy to me. The lateral loads going through that thin part could cause it to buckle. The weld seams also look way too short/narrow. Maybe he will add more bracing when he adds the spring mechanism?
Your videos are amazing man. I'm a huge car guy and diy guy myself, seriously impressive work! You should have a million subscribers!! Just wondering Which cad software are you using to model the car?
I was about to say about the valve cover solid engine mount idea...saw that myself on some old F3 cars i believe. Be careful however as these engines were not designed to be stressed members...especially if the block is aluminum. I have seen old F1 v10 cylinder heads that basically are cast in the shape of an i-beam to aid in torsional rigidity... Here in the states the drag racers and NASCAR boys like to use engine plates... I saw a cadillac cts-v road racer back in the day use a motor plate designed from a billet of aluminum...weight relieved and everything... Look into that...this might work better for you... Otherwise I just saw this... Good luck...these type of projects can make you wanna tear your head out...! BTW...are you using ANSYS...?
Hello, great build you have going. I just started following you. Just curious why you didn't stay with the Virtual Pivot LCA. It seems with custom Links you would be able to place the virtual pivot point where ever you needed it much easier than say a fixed LCA setup. I only ask this because I'm thinking of switch to Virtual Pivot system on my build from a fixed one, mainly so I can make changes to geometry easier while I testing a few configurations of brake rotors, wheel & tires combos along with track width. Cheers!
Hey, I knew that car looked familiar in the picture! Saw one of your videos a while back. Awesome to see you've gotten so far with it now. It depends on what geometry your aiming for. I was looking for a large positive scrub radius, so that would have been pretty difficult to do if I kept the virtual pivot setup. Also makes it that little bit more difficult to figure out the ackermann and steering ratio, and changing attachment points around for caster or pitch/roll center then also effects your steering geometry. It definitely has its benefits in other applications though. Just make sure to get the geometry worked out before building it
@@xfmotorsports Hey thanks for getting back to me. Yeah I really liked details you covered in your suspension videos, i look forward to more. Those were some of the most informative on UA-cam. I am redesigning my whole chassis and was thinking I could figure it out but I think for time sake and ill stick with the current setup I have and extend my control arms since I have widened my car so much. I will be back on UA-cam soon... I'm preparing videos now but I mostly post to Instagram. My channel got suspended for a year... due to someone claiming my car as their own. It Took forever to resolve and left a bad taste in my mouth about UA-cam and their copyright policies plus costing me legal fees. Stay in touch I like what you are doing.
Are mercedes spindles/knuckles made of steel and not iron? I've always been under the understanding (mind you American trucks) that spindle/knuckles are cast or nodular iron and can't be welded in a way that would make them reliable.
You need to come look at one of cars I work on and how they mount on my channel. I believe you need a couple ways to adjust roll centers for track tuning. We use all adjustable mounting points, control arm lengths and ball joint heights.
you seriusly have some of the best explanations on what your doing ... keep up the great work .... ive been doing alot of research and found that the m113k cant handle over 700whp ... what whp rating do you think your going to have? and if you target on going over 700whp are you going to rebuild the block with stronger internals? or do you think what you have done already is capable of handling that much power? also why never upgrade the stock pulleys on the blower, waste of time and money or?
I tried smaller pulleys before. They're fine for the street and drag racing I guess but the problem I ran into was that the intake temps wouldn't stay cool enough around the track, even after mounting two heat exchanges. The intercooler under the supercharger just isn't big enough to keep the temps cool over a prolonged period. The only real solution I assume is something like the slr had, two massive intercoolers mounted on the side. Was running 15psi with the turbos on the previous setup but actually keeping the temps cool which I think was the bigger advantage. I was aiming for 700 crank which is 550-600 wheel. Will dyno the car this time around, hopefully with a bit of extra boost too
how much compression and rebound you calculated on the wheels as you have no spacers in the rod ends so it limits the movement, did you consider this when working in the software?
I've been an automotive tech for 17 years and I have never seen anybody explain suspension geometry so well. I would say in most modern automotive shops people do not understand Ackerman angle... scrub radius etc.
Damn here I am struggling to install parts specifically designed for my car and you're out here designing and fabbing up basically an entire car. Amazing to watch your progress, can't wait to see it move!
Just designed and built my own caravan. So much trial and error with something much more basic than a race car. Not sure how you foresee and manage technical issues so comprehensively. Just awesome.
This is a great series! It's really terrific to see people who are very knowledgeable sharing their knowledge and experience with other enthusiasts. Thank you so much!
Most dope brother! Cant wait to ride along with the rest of your build. Thanks for being so specific!
Taking the photos and making the calculations? Im TOTALLY Impressed. FANTASTIC Idea This is why race car builders contribute so much to the street car world Smart People making cars better and at the same time safer.
Hi, could you tell us a bit about your education and maybe your job? I’m simply blown away by your video’s and just curious.
It shows that you spend a lot of effort in both building the car and making the video’s.
Thank you very much!
Education is in electrical engineering, worked a few years in electrical aerospace also a bit in cars. Currently went back to school for a bit for software engineering, which gives me a bit of time on the side to work on this stuff
SK8215 Hi,
I would have guessed mechanical engineering :). Makes it even more impressive. Can’t wait to see the project develop and eventually see how the car performs. Oh yeah, I think you’re a great educator as well. Btw I also studied software engineering but that was a long time ago.
All the best!
@@Conservator. You realize you don't need an education to do this stuff right?
@@GBHeiserYour saying.. that schooling/formal education isn't required to obtain similar knowledge. BUT An education is usually assumed when someone appears to have a deep understanding on many complex subjects, especially modern ones. Now include that the fact that the youtuber is relatively young and it's an easy assumption to make.
Cullen Crisp
Ok maybe not a formal education and many not at the academic level. On the other hand the way he explains things and how he weights pros and cons for design decisions shows that he’s on top of this and that his thinking is high level.
The fun thing is that he combines it with a lot of practical skills AND makes excellent video’s of it.
Dude, this is awesome, I just started watching your suspension's theory videos and now I've seen the whole project you've done, it's really impressive and for sure that I have to do this at some point of my life. A dream man.
Can't wait to see this beast come alive. Well done sir! Your technical prowess in very refreshing. Glad I stumbled upon your channel.
Incredible video. Very well done. I don't recommend welding cast parts that could be catastrophic though.
Thanks, yeh I know welding isn't the best idea. Would have preferred billet aluminum if I had the extra time, but judging by the low loads this thing will be under compared to its stock application, I think it will hold up fine
@@xfmotorsports that's not how it works, that's not how any of this works....welding a cast part can lead to catastrophic failure under even light loads.
SK8215
You have seriously underestimated the loads generated in a race car, yes the vehicle is lighter than its donor parts car but racing will push all these to the limit
I could not imagine the FIA allowing this onto a race track
@@Avboden while I'm not sure I'd weld them. They are forged and not cast,you can see the forging lines from being made.
Yes, be very very careful with stressed welded Cast parts, especially in the steering with high speeds with high grip levels. Great project, and great learnings to be had..
Absolutely amazing videos. Your knowledge is impressive. The best video series I have seen on UA-cam
I'm really impress by all your knowledges and skills. I never see so much talent in the same person. Keep going my dear you'r the best!
Wonderful progress. Excited for this build. Great to see a very competent person build and explain this beast.
Late to the party, but I wanted to say thanks for sharing this process, and all of the info in the other suspension videos. Awesome stuff, man.
Masters degree in automotive engineering, this is something I always wanted. Thanks
you sir are a genius, been watching your buildup process and what a great project, your knowledge and skills are highly commendable, thanks for sharing (SUBSCRIBED) :)
I feel honored to have watched your channel when it first started, what you doing now is what I i'm be doing.
This is amazing content. I am glad I have stumbled upon your channel!
It’s a great series of videos that are rarely seen on UA-cam. I subscribed, bro.
haven't heard so nice detailed info about geometry - plus that idea to demo it on the real half done axle, where ou can move it frealy, is really great. Thanks !
It doesn't seem like there's very much suspension travel mounting the heim joints in that flat direction, if you turn them 90 degrees they won't go into bind if the suspension travels farther than you've designed it to.
I was thinking the same thing.
biryanikebab I’d rather turn them and make it more suspension travel, I can’t see any reason not to
Thought the same thing
Doesn’t seem he’s necessarily looking for 8-12” of travel.
I’d bet he could probably have 3-6” of travel per corner and still end out with a great handling car if paired with a stiffer suspension setup. Essentially end up being a big aerodynamic go cart.
Alex Vine ya, I get that, but in the start of the video it looks like it only travels 3-4 inches, and if you’ve ever seen the curbing in the corners of most tracks that will bottom out the Heim joints when you hit that curbing when used at the plane they are installed im
Absolutely sensational videos! Wow! I love the way that you used the two photographs to determine steering requirements! I hope you make another car after this one! Maybe you and the Warranty (Tavarish) can do a collaboration or something! Thank you!
I strongly recommend using the spacers for the rose joints you are using. I am not much of a racecar builder but i've seen my share of snapping the stems off of those when people hit curbs too hard.
Absolutely amazing series. I'm really blown away by all of your work.
You mentioned releasing a Part 3 of the suspension series, talking about trailing link setup and other styles, is that video still in the works? I'd love to see that too
A thing I've been thinking about recently is why not put the transmission on the rear axle?
Maybe the easiest way to do it is to reuse fwd audi transmission with its integrated differential and then mod the cv joints to fit the suspension you need.
My favourite build on UA-cam! 👏🏼💥Your knowledge is just ridiculous. Thanks for the videos and keep them coming man👌🏻
cant wait to see you design on the cantilever suspension. This is amazing! You are living my dream!
Project is looking Good, You take it to another level.Kudos.
Guess what? You helped my fix my '98 E55 Estate (or wagon) I had coolant mixing with my oil and was think I needed head gaskets or something, but it was the coolant passage o-rings in the timing cover! Engine saved and not too much work really. Thanks man! Love the vids. I watch every single one
Should've put threaded joints on the outboard control arm mounts so you don't have to unbolt the inner joint when you want to adjust
that would also allow adjustment without requiring the arm to deflect. the way he has the arms welded any length change requires the arm to deflect to create a new triangle
In Russia, all build on the UZ (toyota), but you realize my childhood dream! Way to go, man.
22:14 ''if the car turns out to be front heavy''
Bold of you to assume that Ahaha XDD
Normally you'd design the suspension first, then your frame. You've done it backwards, and you don't have good load paths (pick up points in the middle of a tube instead of at a node). You will also have issues with mounting push rods to those spindly lower control arms.
With the engine bolted to the frame, what are the engineered sacrifical weak points in the chassis? The reason im asking is that in the event of a crash, or even light hit/rub, how do you ensure you dont completly destroy your car and engine and transmission, rather than simply a control arm?
The tubes are actually different wall thicknesses and there will be an aluminum crumple zone in the radiator area. In a crash the front part will crumple before anything else.
f1 and certain prototype classes use composite crash boxes. Making them yourself doesn't seem impossible, they are just layer cakes of carbon fiber and honeycomb. The deformation of the honeycomb and delamination of the carbon fiber dissipate kinetic energy and dramatically reduce the deceleration peak forces.
At first i thought strange that you mounted the lower ball joint upside down but now i understand :) the lower arm will be the mount point for the damper/spring unlike most road cars were the shock and spring mount on top were your upper ball joint is. that way it will prevent the ball joint from separating itself because the weight of the car will push it downward (hope i made sense)... making the wishbones with thin tube was very smart because they will only take pushing and pulling forces, no twisting forces will be there so they only need to resist compression and pulling...very nice engineering there. but if you were to fit an ARB attached to middle of each wishbone like on most road cars the tubes would bend..that is how you optimize for weight saving and efficiency, very nice
Can't wait to see it running !!!!!!!
I have many questions that how to measure and adjust the caster correctly
Amazing what you say what you explain its all amazing , never taught such things anywhere
23:00 ish.
Do you know how much anti squat or dive you went with, by percentage?
awesome work man! I have nothing else but praise to you my man! keep it up!
Whitch 3d design program it is?
wouldn't putting the balljoint attachement points in water during welding change the regitity of these ?
How you plan to change alligment (for example camber) in that setup? I don't think that I see points for that. Wfrom what I see there's only removal of balljoints > turning joint by 180 degrees > putting back again.
Yeh that's right. They have to be removed for making adjustments.
@@xfmotorsports If that's enough for you for adjustments I accept that. For me it's just not really handy. It will be much harder to setup geometry correctly. I think you can still now make it more adjustable with threaded pipe (will be heavier). It's called "Roman Screw" or something similar.
yup...saw that two...normally is used a threaded rod with reversed thread on each end and a hex in the middle (dont know how its called) then some counter-nuts...it allows on the fly adjustment with only one wrench no need to even jack the car up.
How are you planning to adjust tire camber angle as you welded third triangle corner at tire side, unscrewing those uniballs tend to expand the distance between them longitudinaly putting too much stress on material, and vice versa, pulling the tire inward will tend to shrink it, stress it again? Did I miss something there?
Yeh, I mentioned somewhere in the video I left play in the bolts to allow that. It's a smaller room for adjustment but that's all the range I need
@@xfmotorsports huh, free play in a front suspension driven by AMG? Good luck with that...
@@Helloverlord Almost every other car has play in the suspension bolts for adjustment. Do you homework
@@xfmotorsports Interesting. As a mechanics, working on double wishbones, I never seen that play. I might been working on those other cars, done in the different, proper, fashion, with adjusting plates, like in most kit cars , adjustable end ball joint like in caterham 7, camber change blocks like in production sport cars, but really never seen it bodged like you did so it could be revolutionary in racing class. As I said, good luck with it - you're going to need it with that 350 bhp V8 and cut and welded wheel hubs....
@@Helloverlord Guess you've never worked on a Mercedes before. If your so confident in what your saying, come race me. September at Toronto Motorsport Park. Should be an easy win for you considering what your saying
The chassis gets narrower towards the front so the suspension pick up points are not parallel to the front-rear line. I see this type of setup in many offroad cars. What does it do and how do you figure out the suspension geometry in 2D front plane please?
What software are you using for the suspension design?
Fusion 360 is pretty popular and it can also simulate stresses. Pen, paper, and a calculator can do just as well though and in my opinion is itself much easier. Though if you are already proficient with any given cad software it can improve your efficiency.
Adams and lotus software is what he is using
Amazing! Keep going! Like we saying in my country - you have golden hands!
Hi. Can you explain something to me? Why is the heim joint end rod bearing to body horizontal but not vertical?
Thank you very much!
Been watching alot of suspension videos. Im building an air ride hot rod so the car may be at different heights while driving. I was thinkinking of doing equal length parallel wishbones so there would be no camber change based on ride height. Would this have any negative effects?
sub'd.
Planning on making my own car as well in 3yrs time after I come back from Japan, thinking of using either s54, s65 or s85 motor (yeah.. BMW guy here). and it'll be mid engine is what I plan. was thinking of the same suspension set-up for the fronts as well as you. nice to see similar thing to what I am thinking about. probably will go to school w/ in this 3 yrs or so engineering to understand how things are designed even further.
Something I would have recommended is welding threaded rod to the ball joint and putting threaded inserts in both ends of the control arm tubes with opposite thread directions. That way you wouldn't have to unbolt the heim joints to adjust caster and camber. Just crack the jam nuts loose and spin the tube to make adjustments.
Also you're going to need some sort of pivot at the ball joint end for the tubes because shortening or lengthening the tubes for adjustment will also change the angle where the control arm tube meets the mtg point on the frame.
Shouldn't those heim joints be vertical so the control arms can reciprocate up and down (more) and give the suspension/spindle more travel? I'm sure there's a reason for them being mounted horizontally, just curious.
It's stronger using them this way. No bending forces on the threads, just tension or compression. For low travel applications this is the preferred way
SK8215 good to know for future reference thanks! Will you be reenforcing the mounting points for the a arms with something similar to a strut bar? Now that I’m typing this I suppose the shocks will help absorb some of the load the A arm mounts experience at full travel? (also what type of load would that be considered on those mounts at full travel, just rotational force? sorry I’m a noob lol). Subbed for all of the good info here as I may be doing some fabrication similar to this in the future, thanks for the reply!
What educational material can you recommend for learning how to design space frame chassis and suspension systems?
i have a question anybody please answer it, in the double wishbone suspension does the tire/suspension move up or down at all?
Great job designing the suspension. Came across this cause I'm interested in makeing A-Arm suspension for a VW Thing. Welding on cast iron that is as structurally critical as this isn't a good idea. Making steel spindles from scratch would be much more accurate and more importantly much much much safer.
I wouldn't use regular screws for the wishbone mounting but proper bolts. Also your balljoints seem to have a tad too much play. They're perfect when you can barely move them by hand. Also expect them to wear out fast.
Awesome...watching this projects...makes me wanna ditch my mirage cyborg rally car and move into space frame track car project!
How do you adjust the camber? without bending the wishbone out of shape? I must be missing something, cheers
I have a few questions that I hope you would reply:
1) How did you measure the angles while you assembled them?
2) How was the angle virtually determined with your track width?
3) How did you design the chassis based on weight distribution?
4) Is the M14 screw enough to hold the arms to the chassis and your front to middle portion chassis fixture?
I'm probably going to go through all these process in making a Formula student car with a 390 cc engine probably and i'm pretty much new..
hey, I was lucky enough to stumble upon this magnificent video serie, and would just like to say that this looks like a hell of an awesome build!
Also, I reckon you could easily make oval tubes if you made yourself some dies and just rolled standard tubes between two dies of a greater diameter, until you reached the desired oval shape:P
A metalurgist would have a heart attack seeing you cutting and welding forged steel suspension parts.
Threw a red flag for me and my first thought.. "I ain't driving that". I hope he had a good roll bar system.
A MIG welder is wrong for this He risks not getting enough penetration with the thickness of metal involved here.Unless he has a 400 amp welder which I doubt.Stick welding would have been much better.
Yes, some of the angles are a little suss too. In realty fabricating an complete upright would be better. Or simply find a stub axle that is suitable. Toe out on turns makes a car turn better. Steering arm length usually governs that.
Yep, thought the same... Clearly not a mechanical engineer and no automotive engineer either. I wouldn't drive that car with the shown suspension design.
I know right! that weld boundary is going to be so brittle. he did even try to address the issue. Can he heat it back up and peen it then let it cool slowly in sand or something? i hope he is driving slow when it fails.
This suspension setup looks great, but if any of the arms need to be adjusted the rose joint will not correspond with the bolt hole, so to get the bolt through the mounting point and the joint arms will need to be forced which is introducing a stress point, believe me I've been there.....
So to adjust the length of the control arms, you have to remove the bolts through the Heim joint, then rotate the whole joint in 180 degree increments. Is that correct?
The motor is highly displaced to the base, there will not be enough adhesion on the front axle. If you build the suspension on the wishbone, then the shock absorbers are better to adapt the pushroad system
Impressive work on the spindles. Having done this, would it have been easier to fabricate spindles from scratch? Just wondering what your thoughts were. Thx
Aren’t the pockets for the balljoints a slightly different cone shape so they wedge together? I’m probably wrong, just wondering.
Not sure. They were the same for mine measuring the ball joint and the original mounting location
SK8215 I’m incorrect. The tapers have the same angle
Why does the e55 ecu get rich overtime. I reset the battery and my afr’s get back to normal but after some time they go back to pig rich.
I’m leaving the battery unplugged for a long time to see if it will help
Modern ecus adapt to driver's input and sensor readings. Something isn't reading right or it's a design flaw in the ECU programming
Yeh, it tends to run 10.5 afr at high rpms. You can get a tune if you want to lean it a little.
SK8215 yeah I’m tuned I just think the afr’s get way to low over time but when i reset them it goes back to normal, the mid range is gets rich too fast over time it’s supposed to be lean in the midrange
Most underrated UA-cam channel
Those spindels are cast or forged, are you sure that its weldable? for cast there are some sticks for stickwelders who does the job i dont know about mig tho.
That's why he preheats them I presume. Cast welds fairly easily, but may crack because of the temperature coefficient. You may also use silicon bronze, its way softer and can take the stress when the part cools down but is a bit weaker, so just use a thick weld.
@@brynyard Såklart man ska förvärma, men blir det verkligen bra med MIG?
The weld filler should be as strong (if not stronger) and more maluable than the cast iron, the fusion shouldn't be a problem, so as long as you avoid stress cracks from the temperature expansion you'll have a strong enough part.
@@brynyard Allright, jag ger mig. är bara skolad i att det bara blir skit när man försöker svetsa i gjutet/smitt.
At school they say this basically because they don't want to explain all the intricacies with welding cast, just like your parents say "that's just the way it is" (or the priest says "God works in mysterious ways").
Nice job for the suspension design. But welding cast parts is tricky. I hope you let the part cool down pretty slow (under a blanket or so)
This video makes me think about what I can do to improve suspension geometry for my 350z. Then I realize that you can't change much unless than ride hight, camber and toe...
Is welding cast suspension parts reliable? Very interesting project!
done right they are gonna be strong and the quality of the casting I guess. some cast parts sucks since they aren't as good quality and they got air pockets but I imagine mercedes cast parts will have minimal air pockets on their parts.
That suspension part that you think is cast is actually forged.. a no no to weld on. It's forged for a reason.
True , true...theyre actually forged. And since they are hard and robust they probably must resist some bending forces also which property after welding will be probably diminished right?
I don’t think I would get in it personally, but I will watch with great interest! He seems to work by Destructive iteration on his last car... hopefully he has plenty of run off at the tracks he is going to drive at....
hello, can you guide me how you calculated the geometry of steering mount on knuckle so that instantaneous centre will be same for all the 4 wheels while turning?
thankyou anyways.
Will this car include power steering? Also your upper control arm rod ends have very little thread fastened into the wishbones. Equally winding in/out the rod ends to change camber will fundamentally change both the suspension geometry, as well as the distance between the two rod ends attaching to the chassis. This will either induce stress/shear into the fastener or simply not bolt back to the chassis!
Yes, using the power steering rack from a miata. The rod ends should be okay, the minimum threads needed are 6. I made the mounting holes slightly bigger so it still bolts in and allows for a bit of adjustment. Camber adjustment is slight, the bigger benefit is caster adjustment, but then camber can be adjusted further by the three bolts on the other ball joint.
What size rod ends and tubes are you using?
You're talented AF dude .I just subscribed.
Do you think the chassis twisting forces will have a detrimental effect on the engine?
Leverage from the chassis end to the block can be quite high and the tolerances in the engine are quite low.
Maybe extra bracing will be needed.
Will have to see if it works..
You are realy cool! I like your ideas to solve some tasks.
Simply incredible, what program have you used to simulate lenghts angles and all of it. Or which would you suggest. Second thing, the lenght of whisbones is based of what factor?
Double Wish Bone Suspension vs Macpherson Single wishbone ,you can explain the advantages and disadvantages ?
I think it was done earlier
Yeh, I talked about it in the suspension geometry part 2 video towards the end of the video. Its linked in the description.
tonytherunner
Very short: Double wishbone gives you more degrees of freedom. McPherson is cheaper and needs a bit less space.
I know the basics of those suspension ,the problem what I have with single wishbone is about the strut take to much force from cornering .polyurethane buses will help to keep what setup you want ,uniball can be used but not for street .
I was considering strut insert ,replacing twin tub to mono tube for some reason .
morbid curiosity keeps me here.
Could you give any advice as to the best resources available for designing a full custom suspension for a car? I am planning on building a formula-style car for track days, and will be creating almost every component from scratch. I'd like to learn more about the various suspension and steering angles you were talking about. I've got SolidWorks and can do enough in it to play with designs and whatnot before setting off to make them, so maybe that would cut down on my costs and time. I don't have any background in cars or engineering, but I'm usually pretty good at picking up ideas, especially with numbers, and making them work. Any certain books or websites to look at?
Yeah, hire Ron Sutton racing and let the pros do it. This isn't something you can just do without any background in it.
@@Avboden there's got to be some information on it, though... I mean, an average joe can build basically anything if they are able to run the numbers right. All we need are the formulas and a basic understanding how the parts of the formula affect the end result.
Read through the Formula SAE rule book. That should give you a good direction
ua-cam.com/video/oh535De4hKg/v-deo.html also watch this earlier video. Might help clear the basics
The thin sheets connecting the wishbones to the rod ends on tire side look a bit flimsy to me. The lateral loads going through that thin part could cause it to buckle. The weld seams also look way too short/narrow. Maybe he will add more bracing when he adds the spring mechanism?
Yeh, its a little incomplete right now. Have to attach a few bits and pushrod mounting point. You'll see it in the next video
Your videos are amazing man. I'm a huge car guy and diy guy myself, seriously impressive work! You should have a million subscribers!! Just wondering Which cad software are you using to model the car?
I was about to say about the valve cover solid engine mount idea...saw that myself on some old F3 cars i believe. Be careful however as these engines were not designed to be stressed members...especially if the block is aluminum. I have seen old F1 v10 cylinder heads that basically are cast in the shape of an i-beam to aid in torsional rigidity... Here in the states the drag racers and NASCAR boys like to use engine plates... I saw a cadillac cts-v road racer back in the day use a motor plate designed from a billet of aluminum...weight relieved and everything... Look into that...this might work better for you... Otherwise I just saw this... Good luck...these type of projects can make you wanna tear your head out...! BTW...are you using ANSYS...?
Hello, great build you have going. I just started following you. Just curious why you didn't stay with the Virtual Pivot LCA. It seems with custom Links you would be able to place the virtual pivot point where ever you needed it much easier than say a fixed LCA setup. I only ask this because I'm thinking of switch to Virtual Pivot system on my build from a fixed one, mainly so I can make changes to geometry easier while I testing a few configurations of brake rotors, wheel & tires combos along with track width. Cheers!
Hey, I knew that car looked familiar in the picture! Saw one of your videos a while back. Awesome to see you've gotten so far with it now. It depends on what geometry your aiming for. I was looking for a large positive scrub radius, so that would have been pretty difficult to do if I kept the virtual pivot setup. Also makes it that little bit more difficult to figure out the ackermann and steering ratio, and changing attachment points around for caster or pitch/roll center then also effects your steering geometry. It definitely has its benefits in other applications though. Just make sure to get the geometry worked out before building it
@@xfmotorsports Hey thanks for getting back to me. Yeah I really liked details you covered in your suspension videos, i look forward to more. Those were some of the most informative on UA-cam. I am redesigning my whole chassis and was thinking I could figure it out but I think for time sake and ill stick with the current setup I have and extend my control arms since I have widened my car so much. I will be back on UA-cam soon... I'm preparing videos now but I mostly post to Instagram. My channel got suspended for a year... due to someone claiming my car as their own. It Took forever to resolve and left a bad taste in my mouth about UA-cam and their copyright policies plus costing me legal fees. Stay in touch I like what you are doing.
Oh, didn't know that but good to hear your back. Will definitely be looking out for your new content!
Wow love the way you explain and the depth you went into designing this, Might use some of your ideas in my project. ;)
Best channels on UA-cam
Are mercedes spindles/knuckles made of steel and not iron? I've always been under the understanding (mind you American trucks) that spindle/knuckles are cast or nodular iron and can't be welded in a way that would make them reliable.
new favourite build series :) where did you learn all the design methodology!?
what gauge tube did you use?
Hey buddy what software did you use the build this car and do all the calculations and values
You need to come look at one of cars I work on and how they mount on my channel. I believe you need a couple ways to adjust roll centers for track tuning. We use all adjustable mounting points, control arm lengths and ball joint heights.
Dude you deserve more followers than this. You are right up there with Project Binky imo. Keep it going!!!
Which filler rod did you use to weld the cast iron?
How much to make me some of these spindles
you seriusly have some of the best explanations on what your doing ... keep up the great work .... ive been doing alot of research and found that the m113k cant handle over 700whp ... what whp rating do you think your going to have? and if you target on going over 700whp are you going to rebuild the block with stronger internals? or do you think what you have done already is capable of handling that much power? also why never upgrade the stock pulleys on the blower, waste of time and money or?
I tried smaller pulleys before. They're fine for the street and drag racing I guess but the problem I ran into was that the intake temps wouldn't stay cool enough around the track, even after mounting two heat exchanges. The intercooler under the supercharger just isn't big enough to keep the temps cool over a prolonged period. The only real solution I assume is something like the slr had, two massive intercoolers mounted on the side. Was running 15psi with the turbos on the previous setup but actually keeping the temps cool which I think was the bigger advantage. I was aiming for 700 crank which is 550-600 wheel. Will dyno the car this time around, hopefully with a bit of extra boost too
@@xfmotorsports thanks for the info, makes total sense what your talking about, looking forward to the videos !
how much compression and rebound you calculated on the wheels as you have no spacers in the rod ends so it limits the movement, did you consider this when working in the software?
Adams and lotus software is I guess you are using for suspension design. Please tell me if I'm right
Are you going to make brake duct plate on the finished car?
Yes, planning for some f1 style cooling ducts later in the project