You haven't lived until you've seen a low-tier zoner player fight for his life by doing everything to keep his opponent away from him. I have a lot of respect for zoners, so please keep doing what you're doing. But if I ever see you fight against a grappler, just know that I will usually root against you.
IMO if a zoner is low tier the player is based and I will root for them If it is a top tier then it is the cringy as fuck and I will never root for them If the opponent is a grappler I will root for the grappler no matter what
Real. Zoning is fun and all but when youre facing a grappler that can kill you in one continuos interaction after youve lost yours... yeah no, too stressful, give me some of that glue ill chug it down with you.
Is it weird that I actually like practicing against zoners more than any other archetype? movement is one of many things I tend to struggle with in these games, so it's nice to play against something that tests your ability to weave between attacks and close the distance, rather than just having both players constantly holding hands in the center of the arena
Yes, you're weird. The whole point of zoner is making your opponent mad so they make more mistake, so having fun playing against them is weird. If a zoner didn't make you lose your patience, that's a bad zoner.
No it's not weird. You're just a player who likes to progress in every aspect of the game instead of complaining and who's opened to diversity. So you have the good mentality, keep it this way. A game with only rushdowns would be so uninteresting and repetitive. The zoner strategy is just to test your calm and patience, your mental as a all, not making you mad. If you become mad, it's only on you because your mental stamina is low and you're bad at staying patient and thus, bad at fighting zoners. The role of the zoner is to make you lose your patience to capitalize on your mistakes but it doesn't mean you have to be mad about it, just work on your inner serenity to keep a strong mental. Other archetypes do it too to some extent. Matchs against zoners are just more mind focused.
Zoning is deceptively difficult, and is Hella mentally taxing. You have to be constantly analyzing your opponent's moves to decide the best normal/projectile to use
Yeah perfect example ever watch a Skullgirls Peacock or Robo-Fortune player play zoning. Peacock had 3 types of bombs, one that walk slowly to you, one that’s in a go kart that speeds towards you, and one that flies at and arc downwards towards you. And she also has 3 different kinds of item from from the sky, that follow light, medium, and heavy. And what makes it worse, she has a motion + input that can make her teleport to anywhere from in your face, mid screen or even to the other side of the field. And let’s not talk about the assists that can shoot out either beams or other projectiles to make a mind field to travel. Robo-Fortune is kinda like Peacock, except her is just beams, that can snipe you full screen for free damage, if you just whiff an attack from far. Or hell make drones to potentially set up land mines, fly towards you and explode on contact, or turn into air missiles. Both are a pain in the ass to fight when they zone, and don’t forget this could be a 3v3 battle… so while Peacock or Robo-Fortune is running around spamming projectiles to lock you down, they can call assist, if you start understanding how to evade their projectiles. Which if they get back full screen the BS projectiles and comeback again.
@@WarlockLov3 As someone players Zoners, yeah there are some brainless Zoner characters out there. But there's also some brainless Rushdown characters that make it so you can't even play the game (looking at you Virgil)! A good Zoner character takes precision and a cool head on your part because one whiffed move can mean your opponent getting in. And usually, your opponent getting in means death.
Completely inaccurate, honestly. The only mentally taxing thing about it is drawing out the fight by poking them to death with projectiles, which is boring on both sides unless you’re into that kind of thing.
Honestly I find it strange that Zoners, and to a lesser extent Grapplers are so hated, considering that they're so rare, and so watered down in modern fighters. Active zoning (i.e throw fireballs until they jump, and then anti-air, play footsies if they get too close) isn't even a viable strategy in most games, most Zoners are more like aggressive midrange characters nowadays. You don't even have to walk forward and neutral jump to inch them to the corner, you can usually just counter most of their options on the ground. Grapplers are in a similar position, command grabs barely have any defensive utility anymore, you're not gonna get scooped just because you left a gap in your pressure (or because they *made* a gap in your pressure). Or, God forbid, you did a move that's -1 while they had meter. From someone who hates how Rushdown centric mainstream fighters are, it seems like people hate the other archetypes without understanding what made them so polarizing in the first place. It could be much worse (better IMO).
The modern character that's the least "watered down" version of both of these archetypes imo is Z broly from dbfz and I love him for it. character power is generally pretty high in the current patch and he still has game controlling Fullscreen zoning, and absolutely disgusting defensive options. A dream come true.
As a grappler player, the hate for grapplers is beyond me. I'm only at my strongest when my opponent slips up. How can anyone hate that? As for zoners though? The need to get past the wall of projectiles _can_ be annoying, but the chase can be fun too (and this is coming from a person who has mained tager since the first installment).
People who play aggro in basically any kind of game hate it when something forces them to play differently. The hate for zoners is much akin to the hate for control or stall in other genres.
@@vla1ne you could say that about any other opponent though. In that case, what does slipping up mean? I think I do and still mess up. Playing versus a grappler usually means to try and run the timer out, constantly pelt them with ranged attacks. I think it's due to first impressions of said characters. Newbies generally tend to not know what they ought to be doing and grapplers, as well as zones, tend to take advantage of that. Grapplers testing their knowledge on how to keep them out and zoners on how to best use movement without getting hit away from them. And that sentiment probably has stuck for ages now.
@@hickknight when i say slipping up, i'm speaking from a "close range grappler VS guy who fires from a distance" matchups. a strong zoner, or even a rushdown player that knows how grapplers work, do not make anything easy for a super close range character like tager or ganon (the two largest examples that i play as). a grappler tends to be the kind of character that can _only_ get their max damage off of a series of mistakes by the opponent, and in general, cannot *force* such slip-ups the way zoners an rushdowns can. for example, kouma from melty blood, his playstyle requires your opponent to make mistakes, but he has very few unique tools to make them do so, as opposed to someone like kohaku/roa, setup/zoner characters, who can create complex traps that even when you know how they all interact, can force you to make moves that lead to openings. not sure if i'm getting my point across, but the shortest way i can put it is, grapplers are rarely equipped with the tools to truly force slip-ups in the way the other fighter classes are (things like fakeout moves such as izayoi/ miyakos' mixups, ranged guessing games, like axl has, setup trap and such, ect)
One thing people forget is that without zoners, the crazy combos aren't special. While it can feel disappointing for people if the zoner wins, a lot of people forget the feeling of triumph when someone breaks past their defense. I myself respect a good zoner, to me it depends of the individual character because some games make very boring ones while others find ways to make their gameplan fascinating.
Breaking the defense of a defensive player is fun. Breaking the defense of a zoner feels like work and doesnt even feel rewarding because if he gets one hit in youre going back to fullscreen.
@@martmine4618 Again that is why I said it depends on the character and game. Like Peacock in Skullgirls isn't fun to fight and is just a menace, but that is because she is horribly designed. Meanwhile I would say Dhalsim, Glacius, or even in a totally different genre's case Absa from Rivals of Aether have enough vulnerabilities to allow the fights to feel fair and fun. I blame the modern unfun zoner issues on modern games being too afraid to give characters punishing weaknesses because they were JimmyTimmyfan78 will be mad about it.
It also depends on how many things a zoner has to keep in mind to maintain their defense, E.G. Zoning in King of Fighters is generally harder than in Street Fighter due to the added method to approach with the dodge roll to have to keep in mind.
@@martmine4618 Tbh you could make that argument for any archetype If a mix-up monster hits you once, you're back in the blender If a defensive character parries or counter-hits you once, you lose a shitton of health and are back to square one If a grappler grabs you once, you die
@@UsingGorillaLogic Yeah Peacock is pretty ridiculous although IMO the most broken instances of zoners I've seen would be in MHA One's Justice. Not enough characters have adequate answers to the projectile barrages and the zoner characters still have too many tools to respond with even when you close the distance so they aren't really giving up much in exchange for their better range, IIRC the top tier characters are exclusively zoners to put it into perspective, granted you don't really expect the best balance from animoo tie in games but still. The other example would be Injustice 1 and 2, most characters have some kind of projectile which would in theory mitigate balance issues but the dedicated Zoners of Deathstroke and Deadshot are still pretty ridiculous and like the previous example have too many ways to counter people once the distance is closed so they essentiall get a free range advantage with minimal trade off.
There are two things that really determine a zoner's quality: how difficult it is to get to them and how much you actually get from getting in. Injustice zoners are infamously hard to get to since you get pushed back far, their projectiles cover a lot of space for a while and your mobility is terrible, letting them easily put you back at full screen distance. Like watch Deadshot or OG Superman, you can feel your soul leave your body. Essentially half the Smash zoners (not quite the same kind of game, but very much applicable), while usually not as oppressive, have very handy means of getting you off them, can run away effectively thanks to far greater mobility the game offers and actually hitting them can still put them in a good position to resume zoning, which makes the process of reaching them far more tedious than most normal fighting game zoners. That's on top of horrific lag online in official games.
Damn son, calling superman a zoner? Maybe IJ1, not so much IJ2. Hot take, NRS zoners are a pain cause the way their zoning is structured, fireball is a movement check as opposed to a special aimed towards pushing opponents back to specific ranges (Green arrow arrows, supergirl laser, deadshot, star fire's trait cancels from fireball, ivy MB drills, from the deep, superman MB laser, Fate MB fireball, etc). Admittedly, some of the characters mentioned have options that do both, and those characters tend to be stronger or more stable (Fate, Starfire, GA, Atom). So many of those options are meant to catch aggressive dashes either post fireball or aggressive dashes/jumps trying to get around solid normals. Add that to the fact that the vast majority have either invincible reversals, strong wakeup options, or both (I'm lookin at you Green Arrow), means that zoning feels a lot more like runaway rather than 'space control.' You have to get in multiple times on NRS zoners and that shit definitely is frustrating to say the least.
@@sylascole5254 OG above all else though he wasn't a pure zoner, he just could keep beaming you to death and you couldn't do much about it. Max screen distance is another thing. It takes forever to reach the enemy and then BAM, you block an attack that pushes you back into the corner all the way back in Australia.
@@anothenblue2630 For sure, IJ1 was a flawed game, no contest there. Shit walk speed, no tools like MB roll, generally stronger characters, higher damage, there was a lot that made the top tiers more top than IJ2. No need to learn the yomi after super breath if it was plus, and you never even needed to get into f23 range cause full screen laser go brr
when will you noobs stop pretending zoners having get-off-me tools is a smash only thing and not something that has existed in multiple fighting games since fucking GUILE was created.
Archetypes ranked in evil(my opinion): 1. Rushdown 2. Zoner 3. Summoner 4. Grappler 5. Stance 6. Shotos Someone might not agree with the top picks but shoto is the most fair archetype by FAR.
I think the worst thing is that you've got a character from media that you love but they happen to be a scorned zoner. Chandeluire was one of my favorite pokemon and when she came to Pokken i insta mained her. Thus began the laser hatred shenanigans. Man i miss that game.
Min Min in Smash. In ARMS she isn't even particularly campy, as how she plays is heavily based on her ARMS loadout and she's reasonably effective at running most anything.
As someone who started as a Pea/Band main, (don't worry, I run Fortune/Band now) zoning is surprisingly stressful. You have to shut your opponent down long enough for them to get restless and eat something actually good, and then deal your real damage. And if you fail to keep them out by calling a bad move or trying to stuff the wrong kind of approach, well, hope you enjoyed having a healthbar while it lasted. That said, fuck Starfire.
All 2 betas of dnf dual i played vanguard, the dude whit a spear, and in that game, baisicly everybody hase at LEAST 1 full screen attack, not only that, most were faster than half of his kit, now picture playing a zoner when all it takes is for somebody to press a single button to ruin your day, or dodge, vanguard is 100% defenceless, any player who is looking at the screen at that moment WILL demolish me if they got too close, only exception is his down special, whic is a anti air grab that can hit you if you are close and standing up, that move is your best option, besides his sweep, but that is garbage, oh but it doesnt stop there, its MEGA predictable, beacose its ither that, or hopeing that the following combo resets back to neutral.
@@Bee-ef7tz and a training mode, but the future is looking bright for dnf, strange that there is nothing about the price even tho its meare months away from being out
I love zoning because I love thinking in terms of space. I want to think about the entire battlefield and understand how the shapes of my zoning tools intersect with the shapes of potential approaches. I want to be rewarded for a mastery of those intersecting geometric shapes. It's just SOOOOO satisfying for a visual person like me. That being said, I think a lot of fighting game zoners have really boring projectiles. I am more than willing to give up frame data or defensive options if it means interesting ways to interact with the screen. I main Zelda in Smash, and if Hilda from Under Night wasn't a weirdo negative edge character, I'd main her in a heartbeat.
Yep. Blazblue Lambda 6D is just a chess Bishop move in my head. I also just don't like actually dealing with the conflict and the risk of blocking even though my defense isn't half bad.
@@lilliangoulston5706 she is really fun to play and see and has so many tools that that it is impossible for two players to be sharing a single braincell like in others characters.
I enjoy watching Zoners play. I like watching every decision they make to keep the opponent out and how well they read people. It's so interesting for me and sometimes helps me with my own gameplans.
Zones have become a big talking point within the demon slayer game, where all the demons (minus Yushiro and Akaza) are hardcore zoners, and Japan banned the only 4 zoning characters because they thought they were annoying to fight. This honestly infuriates me.
Happy chaos is in a weird spot. He’s probably the most difficult character in strive due to not only his combos being a bit more tight with the cancel, and requires balance with 2 gauges. If someone is really good with him, he is a destructive force of nature. But if you’re ok, you’re gonna have one hell of a time (as I’m pain)
He is only hard if you try to do all the fancy crap that is way less effective than just keeping the opponent at fullscreen and chipping them to death.
@@Mayadel100 The opponent can literally just wait for you to run out of resources then advance in and repeat the process until they eventually get to you, making this strategy tedious to play against at best. There's a reason why pulling out the gun is an attack for happy chaos
@@z1u512 against everyone but Gio and Pot, there's not much need to empty all your resources I' had matches where the HC will just stop shooting if they push me too fullscreen and only shoot when I begin moving forward cause there is no reason to.
I think Happy Chaos is fine. There's a way to get past his zoning but not a lot of people can or want to learn how to deal with it (unless you main Goldlewis or Nagoriyuki you kind of get the short end of the stick). He can be very strong once he gets his offense going but as soon as someone gets up in his face he has to deal with whatever they dish out on him due to no defensive moves nor reversal supers/specials.
as a zoner player, I am offended before even watching this video as I cannot believe you have called my beloved Axl Low an evil. Love your videos, keep up the great content!
I hate the modern fighting game logic. Like "combo based gameplay is the default, grappler and zoner are lazy alternative for people who don't want to play the game the right way" Fuck you guys, zoning is 100 times more fun to me than spending hours learning dozens of combos so I can prevent the other player from playing as long as possible each match. Zoning and grappling too require predictive skills, method, focus and sense of improvisation. And honestly, it looks way more like "fighting" than combos, for me a fight is more about finding openings to hit as often as possible than hitting a guy who can't fight back for as long as possible.
I will say first that long range combat should be be more interactive on a general basis so that it would stop feeling cheap. That said, I wholeheartedly concur with your comment in general. As you indicate, overepmhasis on combos encourages the bajeezus out of overthinking. It's where I advocate for the Power system in Kid Icarus Uprising. You'd be able to find out more about that from searching for a blog post titled "Clubs in Kid Icarus Uprising VS Heavies in Smash Bros." if you're interested. Anyway, yeah, both long range combat and heavy power close range do involve a sense of intuition that combos don't, as well as the sense of overcoming continuous threat, perhaps less so with long range combat but still to a workable degree. That sort of thing is better than the Fragile Speedsters running around merely needing to clip their opponent to deal out tons of punishment for no coherent reason.
You can make this stuff up for any archetype. Just take any slight advantage they have and act like it's the only thing that archetype can do. Then make up something that can be objectively proven wrong. "You play shoto because you can't handle specialist characters with weaknesses" "You play zoner because you can't handle close up combat" "You play rushdown because you can't understand positioning heavy characters" "You play grappler because you can't combo" "You play puppet because you can't do pressure with one character" Every archetype has something a scrub can wrongly blame their loss on
I started taking fighting game more seriously in 2021 and after some looking I realized I was a zoner player. It's my favorite playstyle mainly because it's diferent from the other 2 and cool (IMO), is also more chill to me. I watched Daz's video and is criminally underrated, probably because people hate zoners so much, but that video helped not only to understand more how to win with zonind, but why I like them so much. I've never played a KOF game but I'm waiting for KOF XV just because I learned about some femboy dressed in red that love to throw Mountain Dew flames at people and be a jerk, and I'll main that character
@@nemamiah7832 I switched from Faust to Axl as my main and I'l learning both Heidern and Ash Crimson (the one I really want to main) I'm KOF XV. Funny how before I didn't bike charge characters and no love them :P
lol there is a certain kind of person who loves this stuff. Brings me back to the old days when I pick something like mega man, cable and iceman and proceeded to make my friends hate me on a deep and fundamental level. Also hope you're enjoying KOF. I tried xv (it was my first ever kof game) and it was def. not for me but I know a lot of people are pretty passionate about it. For me it's too much about jump/dp gameplay.
I've always mained zoners. something about the long, slow process makes matches feel like chess games rather than fights and I really like the mental state both players have to have. I think there's significant overlap in the way that zoners and grapplers think, it's just that one is walking towards you and one is walking away.
This is a Team Fortress 2 video now. ...but for way different reasons. Without Sniper and Engineer as necessary evils, the power classes in TF2 would simply unga the entire map without resistance.
a theory i have is that there are actually two different types of zoners: keepaway zoners, who's gameplan consinsts simply of trying to keep people out, slowly chipping away their health, and are also the more hated ones, and pressure zoners, who don't actually have the firepower to keep people out, and instead excel at baiting and punishing bad approaches. Elliana from Rivals of Aether, for example, is considered a zoner despite not actually being that great at keepaway: her guided missiles are stupid fast and can hit you basically anywhere but they have a hefty 90 frame cooldown, and steam clouds are good at controlling space but putting them on the ground makes them a free parry against a decent player. Her close range game is also not great, since her frame data is pretty bad, but to compensate for all of this she has an absolutely absurd punish game, capable of 0-to-deathing most characters in the game off of a single stray hit in the right hands. This means, despite being a zoner, Elliana's gameplan is actually to harass people from far away, baiting them into a reckless approach, and punishing them with a massive damage combo. Of course keepaway/pressure zoners aren't exclusive from one another, it's more like a scale where characters fall closer to one end or the other, since all zoners have aspects of both.
Hi, I love zoners, and I want to give you my perspective on them: My favorite zoners are Princess Remedy from Slap City, and Sylvanos from Rivals of Aether. I really like how they have slow projectiles and spatial resource that make you feel like you are controlling the battle field, but when they don't have those tools I use the threat of throwing a fast projectile/beam/stretchy beam to control the field instead. Zoners are enjoyable for me because they feel like you are making the opponent dance as well as the feeling of controlling the entire arena. I hope that helps you understand how I feel :)
i feel like zoning in a platform fighter is a lot different, considering there's more dimensions to cover at once, and it's generally a lot more to manage compared to a more traditional 2d fighter where the characters take up much more of the screen and verticality isn't really an issue (in games that aren't melty blood)
@@trav1247 Was kind of thinking the same thing. I played Sylvanos in rivals for a long while and never once thought of him as a zoner but I suppose if anyone is it's him or Eleanora and now maybe that new bomb chucking dude. I guess it's just the mindset when I play platform fighters, everyone is a rushdown character xD.
Zoner/Grappler archetypes are really close to FPS weapon types and they basically get the same reactions... Snipers (and other Long Range)/Zoners - Keep people on their toes and because at any moment from anywhere death is flying towards you. People hate this because it forces them to actually stop and think about their next moves and benefit from players being dumb and running without thinking. That and they are criticized for being cowards who won't "come out and really fight" and "anyone can just sit there and wait!" Shotguns (and other Short Range)/Grapplers - Absolute garbage at range, but if you can get in on the opponent, just press button/pull trigger and win the encounter. People hate these and call them cheap because "wow you don't even have to think you just win!", however if you are smart and can wall them out they are a joke. With these you do the thinking ahead of time about getting in close instead of what to do when close.
The feeling you get when you get in on a zoner is basically the same as the dopamine hit that Grappler players get when they get in on everyone else, it hits doubly so if you are a grappler getting in on a zoner.
Great video! Understandable that the initial reaction to zoners is one of frustration, but it needs to be said - they're a necessary evil! Pretty much for all the reasons you stated! And yes, I am watching. YES, LET'S RUN THE SET!!!!!
4:19 - 4:48 Nick All-Star... The devs sadly fell into this trap by designing the game only around archetypes designs they liked (rushdown) and gutting others they didn't, I.E. Zoning & really anything that didn't let you mash on your opponent like floaties. Granted they are getting better with later patches, so maybe it (along with the rest of the game's problems) can turn it around.
1:30 I think feared and respected might be more accurate. While I don’t often play zoners, I do enjoy the way I can frustrate my opponent into doing stupid things while they’re chasing me around. The most recent ones I’ve played were Bridget (GG+R if he counts) and Ferry (GBFVS). I think zoning is at its most “fun” to fight against when you have general movement options to deal with it, or character specific options. Since KOF15 comes out soon, PSYCHO BALL.
I fear them but I don’t respect them. Zoners are annoying as _hell,_ especially when you can’t do anything against them. It doesn’t require much skill, either, and the reason top players don’t use them is because it’s a boring archetype to watch and no one wants people to get bored watching them spam projectiles endlessly until their opponent dies or gives up.
@@absoul112 How so? From my experiences playing with them they don’t require much skill unless they’re normal-based zoners. They’re easy to pick up and cheese with, I’m open to reasons as to HOW they’d be difficult but as of now my opinion is anyone who says zoners are actually complex in any capacity is just a liar. Just spam projectiles at the farther end of the screen and chip them out, boom, dead, ez win.
Funnily enough, Zoning characters are what got me into playing fighting games more competitively, since apparently there's something wrong with my emotions because they won't let me get hype from high execution stuff like most people. I watched Link Vs Snake in Smash, and it was just fun to watch all the ways they try to deny space for the other to move to, and the timings they needed to make for their projectiles, while knowing when to use the more close range attacks. So much chaos with projectiles everywhere, so much action happening constantly. With that said, in smash while I find the archetype more fun than other archetypes, there aren't any zoner characters that make me want to main them. My top 10 favorites to play are usually all close/mid range fighters. Maybe my main Sephiroth with his massive sword (but wants a specific distance), or Inkling (who uses the projectiles to ink opponents so they can deal more damage with their close range combos). Zoners in traditional games are a case by case basis for me though. I think a regular Hadouken is a wonderful projectile. Characters that become almost untouchable because of their projectiles just seems like overkill. Picking up Guilty Gear Strive soon, and gotta say Axl was up there for a choice to be a main for a long time (though Ky, Potemkin, Faust, Zato, Giovanna, are all tempting too). However, knowing Jack-O is in the game, I gotta main her.
I think that the only Zoner I've ever seriously played was Yuzuriha in BBTag. When I started using her, I didn't even realize that she was meant to be a Zoner. I only picked her up because she looked cool. I didn't think that she'd end up being my favorite character in the roster. To this day I still haven't played Under-Night (the game that she's from).
I'm a zoner/puppet main with most fighting games, it's very fun from my perspective and honestly it was much much harder to learn how to play them well than characters like rushdowns or shotos who are for the most part quite straightforward. We usually get pretty bad fame from people who've never played our characters so thanks for reminding people it's not as easy as it looks
During the Mortal Kombat 9 era, i had a friend that used to practice a lot in training mode to do the highest damage combos possible, setup for those combos and okizeme. When he saw footage of a MK9 tournament, he thought they where all shit, since the damage of their combos where "suboptimal" and they couldn't get in easily against zoners, that was until he entered a tournament himself and got absolutely bodied in the first match by a Kabal player who zoned him super hard during the entire match, (and he was playing Raiden, who, has a teleport). He got double flawless, and even after that, when i showed him how to insta air gas blast (wich he was unable to do himself) he straight up quitted the game for good, not playing it even casually for fun. He said that if the game gives you tools that stop your adversary's most mechanical demanding stuff, it sucks and it doesn't deserve to be played. I think that what i want to say with that is that sometimes rushdown players (not all of them mind you) are too self entitled. If you are not playing their way you suck and you are playing the game wrong or you don't have skill or bla bla bla... Those are sentiments that i see very frequently and i think it sucks, since zoning and grappling are two very fun and interesting ways to play and bring a lot of skills you usually wouldn't think about while playing a rushdown character.
To answer your question I have played what some people consider a a midrange to zoner kind of character. I played Phonon in UNICLR and that was pretty much my first fighting game. I liked how I could throw out pokes based on what I thought the opponent was going to do or if I wasn't sure I could throw out something that could cover a lot of options. It was also nice to feel like I had the advantage at round start; outside of like the Hilda match up where it felt pretty even. Now I mostly play characters that have good midrange *and* have something I can use really well up close. Baiken with mix ups and nice pokes in Strive, Es with her fireballs and big buttons and abusing plus frames and the strike throw game in BBCF, and Red Arcueid with her decent mix ups, armored moves and long range fire balls in Type Lumina. Though I guess I'm not really someone that dislikes zoners, so you probably weren't talking to me.
I think people forget one thing, in grappler v rushdown, the grappler needs one good reed. In zoner v rushdown if the rushdown gets one good read zoners just fucking die.
Title Correction: Zoners Are A Necessary Good. Someone's gotta help people appreciate all of the ranges in the game instead of just point blank. And having big-ass buttons is cool as hell- why swing my fists when I can swing a huge sword or shoot a giant gun?
As a zoner main, I can only say that zoners tend to be a low skill floor but a high skill ceiling characters. It's basically the opposite of a grappler. Oh sure, you can spam projectiles but one misinput, you basically lost half of your HP bar. While a grappler needs to be careful of when to approach, zoners need to be careful of when and where to place projectiles.
I think the fundamental issue is *specifically* when you lose to a zoner. Beating a zoner feels good in a way similar to popping a pimple, or scratching an itch in a weird corner of your back. When you fail to do those things, it’s inherently unsatisfying- you put in great effort for what ultimately feels like nothing. While losing can always feel frustrating, especially for new players, losing to a zoner inherently feels worse than losing to other archetypes. It’s a similar deal to fighting stall in Pokémon and other similar things, and a conundrum for sure. But I don’t think it’s an unsolvable one- just one that requires developers with more creative solutions than the genre-wide watering down of an entire archetype.
Zoning is a fun way to play the game. Being on the opposite end of zoning for the first time was humbling and got me to level up my dash blocking. I enjoy that feeling of being in control and knowing one fuck up can be what cost me everything. Forever a zoner player, ideally one with some of their own unique non hit box placing movement, because the latter is the most important thing to me
I don’t play zoners often, and when I do I struggle, but one of my favorite characters in fighting games is Lambda-11 (BlazBlue Central Fiction). Basically, she’s a clone character of the game’s main zoner Nu-13, but given two or three different tools. They share similar manners of throwing swords to zone, but Lambda can transition from this to some harsh rushdown at a moment’s notice. Lambda has the ability to change her play-style on a dime, and I find that absolutely beautiful.
when i first really got into fighters i was the "all-rushdown, zoners are zero brain and boring to fight" person. but when i picked up Strive i found that Axl was the character that felt the most natural to me... so I played him. I've since switched to Testament and now i'm totally in love with playing mid-range/zoner characters. idk what switched in me but i love it. i understand that fighting long range characters is frustrating, but it really has made me play more patient and think more about my game plan. that isn't to say playing rushdown is without thinking, but i really have played with a lot more intentionality when with these more patient characters.
Watching two high level zoners face each other in smash is like watching a dream. It's just so damn cool to see what they are gonna throw at each other next while trying to outsmart the other guy.
Zoning requires a crazy amount of decision making, reaction speed, conditioning, and prediction. Since they don't have a set "win condition" where they quickly snowball you to death like rushdowns and grapplers, they're instead required to play perfectly the entire round. Especially with how poor the defensive options are for most zoners in modern FGs, on top of their typically low HP, they really can't afford to make mistakes.
I play zoners in a lot of games (like long range zoners not projectile zoners) and while I understand the criticisms of *those* players, and I could see how people might think it’s spammy or requires no skill, I wish people would try zoners before hating on them, playing as a character like axl and getting a rush down like sol or gio off of you is one of the hardest things you could attempt
Fair enough video! Though some zoners are really annoying to deal with, especially Axl. Other games like BBCF don't have that much of an issue with zoners because you have a lot of ways to approach aside from just running at your enemy with most Chars. In GGST it's a little more hardcore with the whole "you jumped after axl fullscreen sweeped you so now we're back to fullscreen". And to answer why zoners don't get played in tourneys is because Rushdowns and Shotos control a more important part of the match thanks to oki, meaty and mixups just being so powerful
I can appreciate bbcf zoners. I still hate fighting against them, but depending on which zoner it is and the character I picked, its always an engaging chess game and doesn't always turn into "do I jump in or run up".
I feel that zoners are particularly despised because they're the hardest character archetype to design, and so they're the easiest to get wrong. Even though they are a legitimate archetype and I agree with what you say, you can't deny that they warp the dynamics of the game more than other archetypes do: by design, they make it so the majority of the match will be about approaching then, where the majority of the options at your character's disposal will be useless, as you're forced to rely on movement alone to make progress. In terms of design, I see fighting a zoner in a similar way I see underwater levels in platformers: they're a unique challenge, but one that feels restrictive as it negates the majority of tools at your disposal, and people hate it because of it. They're definitely a tricky design space to explore, and one that, no matter what, rarely gets any recognition. Personally, I'm afraid for the future of the archetype, seeing how games like DBFZ have watered them down considerably with huge economic success. I feel like developers might take the wrong lesson from it
To me, Axl Low was the 'training wheels' that got me into GGS non-bottom ranks. Understandable gameplan, which is directly measured by well, distance between you and the opponent; animations don't turn into a singular blob of hurt, like in the old cartoons.
I've actually used Ky Kiske at times and played him as a Psuedo-Zoner using his simple projectiles and longish range sword attacks to keep most types of players that like characters such as May, Chipp Zanuff, and Giovanna from simply trying to use their specials to rush me, and when they decide to try to jump over for some overheads, Ky has several anti air moves.
Absolutely, I'm getting tired of people only wanting to play rushdowns and dissing zoners and grapplers They don't realize that a game full of shotos would be boring, a game full of rushdowns just anxious and that diversity is what they like without knowing it Zoners can be fun to fight ! Grapplers can be fun to fight ! I play a zoner in GGST and have a blast against Potemkin and Axl, I play a rushdown on SFV and have fun against Dhalsim and Zangief. Maybe I just like these games a lot and my characters a lot too, but I think this diversity is exactly what makes those games great, good, fun and fair for everyone
Tbh I don’t mind zoners ads a bit of variety and makes you have to think about how to deal with them keeping you out of the range you want to be in. If there wasent zoners idk would feel like something is missing.
I just got back into strive recently and picked axl as my character and mow I giggle every time I hit a winter mantis into one vision from across the screen
I find Juri as an interesting example, because her archetype to me is very focused on an Outboxing style; not strictly pushing the opponent away (although it is moreso her emphasis in 4), but mainly keeping the opponent locked down at mid range, making them whiff their melee buttons and then counter-poking them with her own, all while building resources while the opponent isnt directly engaging to make the next time she does get an opening stronger. Overall her playstyle leans more towards zoning than the other major archetypes but she also has the aspect of her switch that she can flip with her installs to go into full rushdown for a brief period.
Peacock moment. You're not safe when you're away from her, but you aint safe when you get close either because good zoning implies having backups to the opponent getting too close for you to spam 8 ball bombs and lasers on their back eye.
I never got the hate behind zoners, it's just a different aspect of the game that makes you play a different way. I tend to like zoners since while mechanically most of them aren't difficult, it makes me feel big brain when I manage to keep space and play to my wincon. Resetting neutral against a rushdown and managing to read their approach is just a feels good moment in a way that I can't get from other games.
idk how I ended up playing zoners. there was a time where I just wanted to ungabunga too and I thought I was too dumb to play zoners. I really got into charge inputs which tend to be defensive in nature. I quickly became a Vega main and a Guile enjoyer, among other charge characters (and occasional grappler) I didn't consider Guile a zoner, I thought he was a footsies and reaction/punish based character. Following that trend I would end up playing Axl for the same reasons(and I like his weapon) and now my friends consider me the zoner player. :( The only time I felt hate though was when I played Xrd Jack-O but I honestly think more people needed to learn the MU. Playing her, you feel where her weakness are and if more people exploited them I don't think as many people would complain about her.
As a zoner main myself, yes I do pick them because they are easier to play. Mostly talking inputs. No combos, no crossups, no frame perfect mixups. Just fullscreen mids. But I unga, therefore I bunga so I pocket a grappler in every fighting game I've ever played, just in case I get bored of not being wanted enywhere.
Zoners in BBTAG pisses me off to no end in sight. Grapplers comes a close second. When said Zoners are up close to people, they would block you, use Reject Guard, Zone again, gets up close, BLOCK AGAIN. The greatest example of this is Hilda because it takes ONE button for a TOD starter. ONE. Not 2 or more. ONE. And that’s it.
Zoning is an art, is something you need to think a bunch when you play them, since your options usually limit one approach, but are a terrible choice against other choices. So your gameplan is either throw everything at people or, in a similar wave of thinking with the grapplers, condition your foe to do what you want. A pretty good example I can think of is the best bae from The King of Fighters, the badass bouncer King. She's a zoner by heart, with tools like DPs, good normals with good range and a fireball that can be used twice in a row. She's usually mid to higher tier because her kit is consistent, and generally she is considered a good character for begginers since her gameplan is quite easy: throw Venon Spikes, use your kicks and sometimes grab then doing things with your Anti Airs (including a C that it is 5 frames, what the fuck). But she gets pretty difficult the more the level of the players increases, because her tools lose the "autodrive" mentality that people think of when they grab her and turn into a rock/paper/scissors situation. At some games, even at full screen, you can be baited and caught if you throw a Double Strike and your foe read it, since Super Jumps allow you to reach the other side of the screen and now you are minus against a dude that can blow you up in an interaction. But wait, what if, instead of throwing two fireballs, you throw one and, on the Super Jump, throw a C or a DP? Now the game keeps at your condition, with you either going for your combo, spacing out your buttons or going for the Command Grab (depending of the version, also what the fuck a zoner has a command grab?). But what if they roll the fireball instead of jumping over? Then you can try to reach him with your slide (3B) or go for the grab or even cover the roll with your long, fancy legs. It's a game of knowledge and condition, which, at least for me, it's the big fun on fighting games. I am fairly slow on my execution, so I can't really Oonga the Boonga, but with zoners, I can keep playing a spacing game and, when I feel confident, go for the combo (unless the character requires APM closer to Starcraft players like HC).
Fun fact: there are psychopaths that think making the grapplers also act as the Zoners is a good idea. im looking at you Z broly and that guy from Yatagarasu
I generally pick Sagat because I know how he plays, and he doesn't do weird stuff. I like having big, mid-range limbs and hate having to do rote memorization in general so SF pretty much forces me to pick a zoner.
Depends on the game. I remember the guy who managed to get top 16 I think and then subsequently banned for playing Sheeva in a big tournament for MK11. Also in that game finals for every big tournament often came down to Cetrion and Joker zoner keepaway (I know Joker isn't a zoner in that game but he did often play keepaway with his long pokes and projectiles). Even Jade was showing up in tournaments a lot before people discovered how busted Cetrion was.
I'm a zoner and I keep seeing people do this when I play Axl so I'm just gonna say it. Do NOT just run straight forward at a zoner if they aren't stuck in an animation. Axl's 2B and some other attacks will counter that. Atleast try to JUMP (even then there are anti-air attacks) instead of RUNNING IN A STRAIGHT LINE. I have lost count of all the Chipp players, Gio players, etc. that just hold forward and get smacked IMMEDIATELY. You are not invincible when you run. I don't care how fast you are, I'm just gonna hold down and tap B and you WILL die. This may apply to just Axl but still, don't just run forward at zoners or in general.
I think zoners are valid, and I certainly don't think they require no skill as some would suggest. That said, every time I fight a Happy Chaos, I want to acquaint my controller with the floor at a high rate of speed.
Archetypes and Semi Archetypes. Rushdown Grappler Zoner All-rounder Shoto Glass Canons (Often Rushdowns with lower health but damage like you hitting some one with a bullet train)
Coming from Blazblue and being a Lambda/Nu main since Continnum Shift, zoners have always been some of my favourite characters in every fg. I can agree that some of them can be pretty annoying to deal with and very boring to play/watch but when done right man, especially when done by arc sys, they can be the sickest characters in the roster (Lamnda, Nu, Venom and Chaos are the best exemples Imo). Also playing zoning characters helps a lot when trying to learn spacing and most importantly blocking since most of them don't have really good defensive options. So yea zoners can be sick, but if you are a briish man with sickles or a strechy indian old man who breaths fire I am going to invade your personal space
RTS has Zoning playstyle. You make some scary stuff that could destroy their stuff, but can be easily avoided. Basically it keeps them off your shit until you can roll out and take over the map.
zoners are a lot more fun when they're combined with another archetype, like ciel and i-no (at least in +R, can't speak for the current strive meta), they have good zoning tools, but they're largely only meant to open up characters to get their shit mixed
At the end of the day people just like different things and that's it. I find zoning fun contrary to rushdown because I like meticulous and tricky play and I don't care what people think about it.
I thought you were about to slowly fade in either IJ1 Supes or IJ2 Deathstroke when you were saying no* they shouldn't be banned, but that's probably what happens when I talk fighting games with WonderChef so often because he is perpetually traumatised from those characters.
In celebration of Kid Icarus Uprising's 10th Anniversary, I will post what I have to say about long range combatants, or zoners as people will call them. LR (long range) combat is, quite simply, polarizing, the result of how it can invent character bias all too easily. Here's a RPS triangle to consider: Heavy Infantry beats Cavalry by shaking off their quick strikes; Cavalry beats Artillery by closing the distance; and, most relevant, Artillery beats Heavy Infantry by staying out of close range more easily. See the point I'm making? If you don't, LR combat being powerful skews in favor of the faster characters, simply because those characters can break through and wreak havoc. We want a system where RPS triangle subversion can happen but relies so much on skill to do so. Why does this make Kid Icarus Uprising relevant? Well, I got into it because it provided the Power system, and that particularly stands out as a happy medium to an aspect of fighting games that is important: virtually unconditional flinching. I know fighting games give certain moves superarmor, but those tend to be a case of Guide Dang It. Other than that, I need only point out how it's so biased against the characters representing Heavy Infantry in the above RPS triangle. Those characters not only get shelled by LR attacks repeatedly and more easily and keep getting sent back, but also prove to be easy targets for combos to the point of being glorified pi(n)atas even when at close range where they're supposed to excel. This, needless to say, is frustrating. What is KIU's solution? Make a Power called Super Armor as a 20 seconds per charge duration buff that prevents knockback to the user and reduces the damage they take by 30%. This being a Power means that it not only has limited charges per match, but it also uses up space on the Power Grid that could be going to another Power such as Energy Charge or Petrify Attack, both emphasized enough to make it one of the less cost-effective buff powers. Even so, just having this around deters overreliance on combos as a result of temporarily shutting them out on buffered input, which even includes the start of a getup, and it also allows for shaking off long range attacks. KIU's Power system didn't even stop there, and it didn't even stop with another Armor Power, Counter, that is more risk-reward. You can search for a blog post of mine titled "Clubs in Kid Icarus Uprising VS Heavies in Smash Bros." if you need particular details, but I can also especially point out how LR combatants tend to still have better mobility against the Heavy Infantry characters, not an accomplishment but it's still a critical advantage. Equalizing this effectively falls on managing at least one of three options: -Burst mobility -Projectile homing -Immobilization application That last one ends up with the last reliability for the Heavy Infantry character, and in the case of KIU, your best bet is a Power called Black Hole, which places a momentary black hole beacon at mid range to vacuum opponents to its location. Don't worry, there are ways to nullify Black Hole's effectiveness in this regard; the bulk of them just happen to involve the Power system itself, and therein lies the point: long range combat ends up with more methodical gameplay, when shaking the LR attacks off becomes efficient enough as a result of having a more consistent point. When I'm realizing a lot better about whether I'm dealing with a precision aiming shot Staff, a heightened homing-to-velocity ratio Bow, or an explosive trapper-focused Cannon, something is going right. You point out about patience being a virtue. I like to think adding interaction that supports this notion like what happens here makes long range combat MUCH better design. At that point, long range having the tools to combat the faster characters becomes more than fine. Now yes, Kid Icarus Uprising is a different game and does also have its balance problems particularly with weapon modifiers, but it has points definitely worth looking into.
I`m definitely no zoner player, but if i were to ever see someone rock something like a Nu-13 (or any of her sisters for that matter), a Zato or something of the like, i gain respect for them purely because each time i see a zoner moveset my already monke brain just turns further into mush. I can barely create combos, i could NEVER pull off something a zoner can.
You haven't lived until you've seen a low-tier zoner player fight for his life by doing everything to keep his opponent away from him. I have a lot of respect for zoners, so please keep doing what you're doing. But if I ever see you fight against a grappler, just know that I will usually root against you.
Perfectly reasonable, grapplers are naturally at a disadvantage against zoners so it's understandable you'd want them to beat us.
@@beefyblom plus watching them get thrown and thrown again with nothing to do about is hilarious
IMO if a zoner is low tier the player is based and I will root for them
If it is a top tier then it is the cringy as fuck and I will never root for them
If the opponent is a grappler I will root for the grappler no matter what
Real. Zoning is fun and all but when youre facing a grappler that can kill you in one continuos interaction after youve lost yours... yeah no, too stressful, give me some of that glue ill chug it down with you.
@@arandomguyontheinternet2308 nu 13 being the epitome of insane strengths and insane weaknesses. God tier zoning, God awful defense
Is it weird that I actually like practicing against zoners more than any other archetype? movement is one of many things I tend to struggle with in these games, so it's nice to play against something that tests your ability to weave between attacks and close the distance, rather than just having both players constantly holding hands in the center of the arena
I love movement in fighting games. Thats why I hate zoners that have one move that eliminates 90% of my movement options.
@@martmine4618 I-no vs Chaos in a nutshell
It's not weird, you are just based
Yes, you're weird. The whole point of zoner is making your opponent mad so they make more mistake, so having fun playing against them is weird.
If a zoner didn't make you lose your patience, that's a bad zoner.
No it's not weird. You're just a player who likes to progress in every aspect of the game instead of complaining and who's opened to diversity. So you have the good mentality, keep it this way. A game with only rushdowns would be so uninteresting and repetitive.
The zoner strategy is just to test your calm and patience, your mental as a all, not making you mad. If you become mad, it's only on you because your mental stamina is low and you're bad at staying patient and thus, bad at fighting zoners.
The role of the zoner is to make you lose your patience to capitalize on your mistakes but it doesn't mean you have to be mad about it, just work on your inner serenity to keep a strong mental. Other archetypes do it too to some extent. Matchs against zoners are just more mind focused.
Zoning is deceptively difficult, and is Hella mentally taxing. You have to be constantly analyzing your opponent's moves to decide the best normal/projectile to use
Yeah perfect example ever watch a Skullgirls Peacock or Robo-Fortune player play zoning.
Peacock had 3 types of bombs, one that walk slowly to you, one that’s in a go kart that speeds towards you, and one that flies at and arc downwards towards you. And she also has 3 different kinds of item from from the sky, that follow light, medium, and heavy. And what makes it worse, she has a motion + input that can make her teleport to anywhere from in your face, mid screen or even to the other side of the field. And let’s not talk about the assists that can shoot out either beams or other projectiles to make a mind field to travel.
Robo-Fortune is kinda like Peacock, except her is just beams, that can snipe you full screen for free damage, if you just whiff an attack from far. Or hell make drones to potentially set up land mines, fly towards you and explode on contact, or turn into air missiles.
Both are a pain in the ass to fight when they zone, and don’t forget this could be a 3v3 battle… so while Peacock or Robo-Fortune is running around spamming projectiles to lock you down, they can call assist, if you start understanding how to evade their projectiles. Which if they get back full screen the BS projectiles and comeback again.
I think it depends on the game, some games have really brainless zoning because projectiles are so powerful.
@@WarlockLov3 As someone players Zoners, yeah there are some brainless Zoner characters out there. But there's also some brainless Rushdown characters that make it so you can't even play the game (looking at you Virgil)! A good Zoner character takes precision and a cool head on your part because one whiffed move can mean your opponent getting in. And usually, your opponent getting in means death.
@@darienb1127 true, I can agree with that
Completely inaccurate, honestly. The only mentally taxing thing about it is drawing out the fight by poking them to death with projectiles, which is boring on both sides unless you’re into that kind of thing.
Honestly I find it strange that Zoners, and to a lesser extent Grapplers are so hated, considering that they're so rare, and so watered down in modern fighters.
Active zoning (i.e throw fireballs until they jump, and then anti-air, play footsies if they get too close) isn't even a viable strategy in most games, most Zoners are more like aggressive midrange characters nowadays. You don't even have to walk forward and neutral jump to inch them to the corner, you can usually just counter most of their options on the ground.
Grapplers are in a similar position, command grabs barely have any defensive utility anymore, you're not gonna get scooped just because you left a gap in your pressure (or because they *made* a gap in your pressure). Or, God forbid, you did a move that's -1 while they had meter.
From someone who hates how Rushdown centric mainstream fighters are, it seems like people hate the other archetypes without understanding what made them so polarizing in the first place. It could be much worse (better IMO).
The modern character that's the least "watered down" version of both of these archetypes imo is Z broly from dbfz and I love him for it. character power is generally pretty high in the current patch and he still has game controlling Fullscreen zoning, and absolutely disgusting defensive options.
A dream come true.
As a grappler player, the hate for grapplers is beyond me. I'm only at my strongest when my opponent slips up. How can anyone hate that?
As for zoners though? The need to get past the wall of projectiles _can_ be annoying, but the chase can be fun too (and this is coming from a person who has mained tager since the first installment).
People who play aggro in basically any kind of game hate it when something forces them to play differently. The hate for zoners is much akin to the hate for control or stall in other genres.
@@vla1ne you could say that about any other opponent though. In that case, what does slipping up mean?
I think I do and still mess up. Playing versus a grappler usually means to try and run the timer out, constantly pelt them with ranged attacks.
I think it's due to first impressions of said characters. Newbies generally tend to not know what they ought to be doing and grapplers, as well as zones, tend to take advantage of that. Grapplers testing their knowledge on how to keep them out and zoners on how to best use movement without getting hit away from them.
And that sentiment probably has stuck for ages now.
@@hickknight when i say slipping up, i'm speaking from a "close range grappler VS guy who fires from a distance" matchups. a strong zoner, or even a rushdown player that knows how grapplers work, do not make anything easy for a super close range character like tager or ganon (the two largest examples that i play as).
a grappler tends to be the kind of character that can _only_ get their max damage off of a series of mistakes by the opponent, and in general, cannot *force* such slip-ups the way zoners an rushdowns can. for example, kouma from melty blood, his playstyle requires your opponent to make mistakes, but he has very few unique tools to make them do so, as opposed to someone like kohaku/roa, setup/zoner characters, who can create complex traps that even when you know how they all interact, can force you to make moves that lead to openings.
not sure if i'm getting my point across, but the shortest way i can put it is, grapplers are rarely equipped with the tools to truly force slip-ups in the way the other fighter classes are (things like fakeout moves such as izayoi/ miyakos' mixups, ranged guessing games, like axl has, setup trap and such, ect)
One thing people forget is that without zoners, the crazy combos aren't special. While it can feel disappointing for people if the zoner wins, a lot of people forget the feeling of triumph when someone breaks past their defense. I myself respect a good zoner, to me it depends of the individual character because some games make very boring ones while others find ways to make their gameplan fascinating.
Breaking the defense of a defensive player is fun.
Breaking the defense of a zoner feels like work and doesnt even feel rewarding because if he gets one hit in youre going back to fullscreen.
@@martmine4618 Again that is why I said it depends on the character and game. Like Peacock in Skullgirls isn't fun to fight and is just a menace, but that is because she is horribly designed. Meanwhile I would say Dhalsim, Glacius, or even in a totally different genre's case Absa from Rivals of Aether have enough vulnerabilities to allow the fights to feel fair and fun. I blame the modern unfun zoner issues on modern games being too afraid to give characters punishing weaknesses because they were JimmyTimmyfan78 will be mad about it.
It also depends on how many things a zoner has to keep in mind to maintain their defense, E.G. Zoning in King of Fighters is generally harder than in Street Fighter due to the added method to approach with the dodge roll to have to keep in mind.
@@martmine4618 Tbh you could make that argument for any archetype
If a mix-up monster hits you once, you're back in the blender
If a defensive character parries or counter-hits you once, you lose a shitton of health and are back to square one
If a grappler grabs you once, you die
@@UsingGorillaLogic Yeah Peacock is pretty ridiculous although IMO the most broken instances of zoners I've seen would be in MHA One's Justice. Not enough characters have adequate answers to the projectile barrages and the zoner characters still have too many tools to respond with even when you close the distance so they aren't really giving up much in exchange for their better range, IIRC the top tier characters are exclusively zoners to put it into perspective, granted you don't really expect the best balance from animoo tie in games but still. The other example would be Injustice 1 and 2, most characters have some kind of projectile which would in theory mitigate balance issues but the dedicated Zoners of Deathstroke and Deadshot are still pretty ridiculous and like the previous example have too many ways to counter people once the distance is closed so they essentiall get a free range advantage with minimal trade off.
There are two things that really determine a zoner's quality: how difficult it is to get to them and how much you actually get from getting in.
Injustice zoners are infamously hard to get to since you get pushed back far, their projectiles cover a lot of space for a while and your mobility is terrible, letting them easily put you back at full screen distance. Like watch Deadshot or OG Superman, you can feel your soul leave your body.
Essentially half the Smash zoners (not quite the same kind of game, but very much applicable), while usually not as oppressive, have very handy means of getting you off them, can run away effectively thanks to far greater mobility the game offers and actually hitting them can still put them in a good position to resume zoning, which makes the process of reaching them far more tedious than most normal fighting game zoners. That's on top of horrific lag online in official games.
Damn son, calling superman a zoner? Maybe IJ1, not so much IJ2. Hot take, NRS zoners are a pain cause the way their zoning is structured, fireball is a movement check as opposed to a special aimed towards pushing opponents back to specific ranges (Green arrow arrows, supergirl laser, deadshot, star fire's trait cancels from fireball, ivy MB drills, from the deep, superman MB laser, Fate MB fireball, etc). Admittedly, some of the characters mentioned have options that do both, and those characters tend to be stronger or more stable (Fate, Starfire, GA, Atom). So many of those options are meant to catch aggressive dashes either post fireball or aggressive dashes/jumps trying to get around solid normals. Add that to the fact that the vast majority have either invincible reversals, strong wakeup options, or both (I'm lookin at you Green Arrow), means that zoning feels a lot more like runaway rather than 'space control.' You have to get in multiple times on NRS zoners and that shit definitely is frustrating to say the least.
@@sylascole5254 OG above all else though he wasn't a pure zoner, he just could keep beaming you to death and you couldn't do much about it.
Max screen distance is another thing. It takes forever to reach the enemy and then BAM, you block an attack that pushes you back into the corner all the way back in Australia.
@@anothenblue2630 For sure, IJ1 was a flawed game, no contest there. Shit walk speed, no tools like MB roll, generally stronger characters, higher damage, there was a lot that made the top tiers more top than IJ2. No need to learn the yomi after super breath if it was plus, and you never even needed to get into f23 range cause full screen laser go brr
when will you noobs stop pretending zoners having get-off-me tools is a smash only thing and not something that has existed in multiple fighting games since fucking GUILE was created.
zoners should have DPs because it pisses off the “i dont want to think while im on offense” crowd
Hot take: rushdown is the true evil
Archetypes ranked in evil(my opinion):
1. Rushdown
2. Zoner
3. Summoner
4. Grappler
5. Stance
6. Shotos
Someone might not agree with the top picks but shoto is the most fair archetype by FAR.
@@son_goku1390 honestly spot on for all of these except stance, some of those mfs are dirty *cough* squigly since im a sg player but hey i play her
@@velan6725 they might be annoying but they aren't unfair, once you know what each stance does they're honestly kinda underwhelming
@@son_goku1390 yea nonetheless i would trade their place for grapplers but overall theyre fair.
@@son_goku1390tell me you haven’t played vs Elphelt without telling me you haven’t played vs Elphelt
I think the worst thing is that you've got a character from media that you love but they happen to be a scorned zoner. Chandeluire was one of my favorite pokemon and when she came to Pokken i insta mained her. Thus began the laser hatred shenanigans. Man i miss that game.
I understand the hatred of zoners, but we're people too. (Please Nintendo bring back pokken that game was so fun)
Hah. Right back at ya. And one of.my favoured pokemon is Gardevoir. Also a zoner of sorts. Hoo boy.
Min Min in Smash. In ARMS she isn't even particularly campy, as how she plays is heavily based on her ARMS loadout and she's reasonably effective at running most anything.
@@boxedfoxstudios6479 well pokken is on the switch sooo
@@Aquabzs blazblue central fiction is also on switch. I want another mainline blazblue game
As someone who started as a Pea/Band main, (don't worry, I run Fortune/Band now) zoning is surprisingly stressful. You have to shut your opponent down long enough for them to get restless and eat something actually good, and then deal your real damage. And if you fail to keep them out by calling a bad move or trying to stuff the wrong kind of approach, well, hope you enjoyed having a healthbar while it lasted. That said, fuck Starfire.
Yeah that's pretty accurate, one of my KoF mains is King and even at the best of times it can be pretty nervewracking.
haha big band air go WOMP.
All 2 betas of dnf dual i played vanguard, the dude whit a spear, and in that game, baisicly everybody hase at LEAST 1 full screen attack, not only that, most were faster than half of his kit, now picture playing a zoner when all it takes is for somebody to press a single button to ruin your day, or dodge, vanguard is 100% defenceless, any player who is looking at the screen at that moment WILL demolish me if they got too close, only exception is his down special, whic is a anti air grab that can hit you if you are close and standing up, that move is your best option, besides his sweep, but that is garbage, oh but it doesnt stop there, its MEGA predictable, beacose its ither that, or hopeing that the following combo resets back to neutral.
@@d0navan440 sounds rough, but luckily the game is still in beta. A few buffs will more than likely go his way.
@@Bee-ef7tz and a training mode, but the future is looking bright for dnf, strange that there is nothing about the price even tho its meare months away from being out
Do not shake the Zoners’s hands after the match.
They wouldn’t want to be that close anyway, lol.
Nah, we just carry around a grabby claw we shake with instead.
I love zoning because I love thinking in terms of space. I want to think about the entire battlefield and understand how the shapes of my zoning tools intersect with the shapes of potential approaches. I want to be rewarded for a mastery of those intersecting geometric shapes. It's just SOOOOO satisfying for a visual person like me. That being said, I think a lot of fighting game zoners have really boring projectiles. I am more than willing to give up frame data or defensive options if it means interesting ways to interact with the screen. I main Zelda in Smash, and if Hilda from Under Night wasn't a weirdo negative edge character, I'd main her in a heartbeat.
Yep. Blazblue Lambda 6D is just a chess Bishop move in my head.
I also just don't like actually dealing with the conflict and the risk of blocking even though my defense isn't half bad.
Have you tried elliana from rivals of aether really cool heavy zoner with insane mobility options and even rushdown capabilities.
@@heracrossz7701 I love Elliana! I don't play Rivals much but she's 100% my main.
@@lilliangoulston5706 she is really fun to play and see and has so many tools that that it is impossible for two players to be sharing a single braincell like in others characters.
I enjoy watching Zoners play. I like watching every decision they make to keep the opponent out and how well they read people. It's so interesting for me and sometimes helps me with my own gameplans.
Zones have become a big talking point within the demon slayer game, where all the demons (minus Yushiro and Akaza) are hardcore zoners, and Japan banned the only 4 zoning characters because they thought they were annoying to fight. This honestly infuriates me.
yikes, sounds like japan is a bunch of scrubs in that case
Happy chaos is in a weird spot. He’s probably the most difficult character in strive due to not only his combos being a bit more tight with the cancel, and requires balance with 2 gauges.
If someone is really good with him, he is a destructive force of nature. But if you’re ok, you’re gonna have one hell of a time (as I’m pain)
He is only hard if you try to do all the fancy crap that is way less effective than just keeping the opponent at fullscreen and chipping them to death.
@@Mayadel100 The opponent can literally just wait for you to run out of resources then advance in and repeat the process until they eventually get to you, making this strategy tedious to play against at best. There's a reason why pulling out the gun is an attack for happy chaos
@@z1u512 against everyone but Gio and Pot, there's not much need to empty all your resources I' had matches where the HC will just stop shooting if they push me too fullscreen and only shoot when I begin moving forward cause there is no reason to.
I think Happy Chaos is fine. There's a way to get past his zoning but not a lot of people can or want to learn how to deal with it (unless you main Goldlewis or Nagoriyuki you kind of get the short end of the stick). He can be very strong once he gets his offense going but as soon as someone gets up in his face he has to deal with whatever they dish out on him due to no defensive moves nor reversal supers/specials.
@@mocaff2382 I-no has it even worse, all you can do is crouch walk
as a zoner player, I am offended before even watching this video as I cannot believe you have called my beloved Axl Low an evil. Love your videos, keep up the great content!
I hate the modern fighting game logic.
Like "combo based gameplay is the default, grappler and zoner are lazy alternative for people who don't want to play the game the right way"
Fuck you guys, zoning is 100 times more fun to me than spending hours learning dozens of combos so I can prevent the other player from playing as long as possible each match.
Zoning and grappling too require predictive skills, method, focus and sense of improvisation. And honestly, it looks way more like "fighting" than combos, for me a fight is more about finding openings to hit as often as possible than hitting a guy who can't fight back for as long as possible.
I will say first that long range combat should be be more interactive on a general basis so that it would stop feeling cheap. That said, I wholeheartedly concur with your comment in general. As you indicate, overepmhasis on combos encourages the bajeezus out of overthinking. It's where I advocate for the Power system in Kid Icarus Uprising. You'd be able to find out more about that from searching for a blog post titled "Clubs in Kid Icarus Uprising VS Heavies in Smash Bros." if you're interested.
Anyway, yeah, both long range combat and heavy power close range do involve a sense of intuition that combos don't, as well as the sense of overcoming continuous threat, perhaps less so with long range combat but still to a workable degree. That sort of thing is better than the Fragile Speedsters running around merely needing to clip their opponent to deal out tons of punishment for no coherent reason.
You can make this stuff up for any archetype. Just take any slight advantage they have and act like it's the only thing that archetype can do. Then make up something that can be objectively proven wrong.
"You play shoto because you can't handle specialist characters with weaknesses"
"You play zoner because you can't handle close up combat"
"You play rushdown because you can't understand positioning heavy characters"
"You play grappler because you can't combo"
"You play puppet because you can't do pressure with one character"
Every archetype has something a scrub can wrongly blame their loss on
I started taking fighting game more seriously in 2021 and after some looking I realized I was a zoner player. It's my favorite playstyle mainly because it's diferent from the other 2 and cool (IMO), is also more chill to me. I watched Daz's video and is criminally underrated, probably because people hate zoners so much, but that video helped not only to understand more how to win with zonind, but why I like them so much.
I've never played a KOF game but I'm waiting for KOF XV just because I learned about some femboy dressed in red that love to throw Mountain Dew flames at people and be a jerk, and I'll main that character
But have you tried playing CHARGE characters? Zoning is well and good, but pressing downback *menacingly* is just precious.
@@nemamiah7832 I switched from Faust to Axl as my main and I'l learning both Heidern and Ash Crimson (the one I really want to main) I'm KOF XV. Funny how before I didn't bike charge characters and no love them :P
lol there is a certain kind of person who loves this stuff. Brings me back to the old days when I pick something like mega man, cable and iceman and proceeded to make my friends hate me on a deep and fundamental level.
Also hope you're enjoying KOF. I tried xv (it was my first ever kof game) and it was def. not for me but I know a lot of people are pretty passionate about it. For me it's too much about jump/dp gameplay.
So you're too lazy to learn neutral is practice comboing
@@mlgmcdonaldsland7063 They’re too lazy to learn neutral, so they decided to play… a zoner? An archetype based almost entirely around neutral?
I've always mained zoners. something about the long, slow process makes matches feel like chess games rather than fights and I really like the mental state both players have to have. I think there's significant overlap in the way that zoners and grapplers think, it's just that one is walking towards you and one is walking away.
This is a Team Fortress 2 video now.
...but for way different reasons. Without Sniper and Engineer as necessary evils, the power classes in TF2 would simply unga the entire map without resistance.
a theory i have is that there are actually two different types of zoners: keepaway zoners, who's gameplan consinsts simply of trying to keep people out, slowly chipping away their health, and are also the more hated ones, and pressure zoners, who don't actually have the firepower to keep people out, and instead excel at baiting and punishing bad approaches.
Elliana from Rivals of Aether, for example, is considered a zoner despite not actually being that great at keepaway: her guided missiles are stupid fast and can hit you basically anywhere but they have a hefty 90 frame cooldown, and steam clouds are good at controlling space but putting them on the ground makes them a free parry against a decent player. Her close range game is also not great, since her frame data is pretty bad, but to compensate for all of this she has an absolutely absurd punish game, capable of 0-to-deathing most characters in the game off of a single stray hit in the right hands. This means, despite being a zoner, Elliana's gameplan is actually to harass people from far away, baiting them into a reckless approach, and punishing them with a massive damage combo.
Of course keepaway/pressure zoners aren't exclusive from one another, it's more like a scale where characters fall closer to one end or the other, since all zoners have aspects of both.
The world can doo without keep away zoning TBH
i generally prefer keep-away zoning, but i keep running face first into pressure zones lmao
the rivals comment I was looking for hell yeah 🤝
Hi, I love zoners, and I want to give you my perspective on them:
My favorite zoners are Princess Remedy from Slap City, and Sylvanos from Rivals of Aether. I really like how they have slow projectiles and spatial resource that make you feel like you are controlling the battle field, but when they don't have those tools I use the threat of throwing a fast projectile/beam/stretchy beam to control the field instead. Zoners are enjoyable for me because they feel like you are making the opponent dance as well as the feeling of controlling the entire arena.
I hope that helps you understand how I feel :)
i feel like zoning in a platform fighter is a lot different, considering there's more dimensions to cover at once, and it's generally a lot more to manage compared to a more traditional 2d fighter where the characters take up much more of the screen and verticality isn't really an issue (in games that aren't melty blood)
@@trav1247 I am aware of that, I just mentioned how my favorites happened to be in platform fighters.
@@trav1247 Was kind of thinking the same thing. I played Sylvanos in rivals for a long while and never once thought of him as a zoner but I suppose if anyone is it's him or Eleanora and now maybe that new bomb chucking dude.
I guess it's just the mindset when I play platform fighters, everyone is a rushdown character xD.
sylvanos is a zoner?? o_O
"you could say every playstyle is mindless" you're goddamn right I can
GekkoSquirrel: So what do zoners test?
Me: Ugh... my patience...
GekkoSquirrel: Patience
Me: 😳
Zoner/Grappler archetypes are really close to FPS weapon types and they basically get the same reactions...
Snipers (and other Long Range)/Zoners - Keep people on their toes and because at any moment from anywhere death is flying towards you. People hate this because it forces them to actually stop and think about their next moves and benefit from players being dumb and running without thinking. That and they are criticized for being cowards who won't "come out and really fight" and "anyone can just sit there and wait!"
Shotguns (and other Short Range)/Grapplers - Absolute garbage at range, but if you can get in on the opponent, just press button/pull trigger and win the encounter. People hate these and call them cheap because "wow you don't even have to think you just win!", however if you are smart and can wall them out they are a joke. With these you do the thinking ahead of time about getting in close instead of what to do when close.
The feeling you get when you get in on a zoner is basically the same as the dopamine hit that Grappler players get when they get in on everyone else, it hits doubly so if you are a grappler getting in on a zoner.
Great video! Understandable that the initial reaction to zoners is one of frustration, but it needs to be said - they're a necessary evil! Pretty much for all the reasons you stated!
And yes, I am watching. YES, LET'S RUN THE SET!!!!!
waiting for gekkosquirrel to make a video on female designs in fighting games and open with the line "let's talk about boobs"
4:19 - 4:48
Nick All-Star...
The devs sadly fell into this trap by designing the game only around archetypes designs they liked (rushdown) and gutting others they didn't, I.E. Zoning & really anything that didn't let you mash on your opponent like floaties. Granted they are getting better with later patches, so maybe it (along with the rest of the game's problems) can turn it around.
1:30 I think feared and respected might be more accurate.
While I don’t often play zoners, I do enjoy the way I can frustrate my opponent into doing stupid things while they’re chasing me around. The most recent ones I’ve played were Bridget (GG+R if he counts) and Ferry (GBFVS). I think zoning is at its most “fun” to fight against when you have general movement options to deal with it, or character specific options.
Since KOF15 comes out soon, PSYCHO BALL.
KoFXV is arrow spikes for me. I wonder how salty I'll be facing Athena though.
@@hickknight I would be more worried of Ash, he can literally drain your life bar with the Sans coulette install if your close.
I fear them but I don’t respect them. Zoners are annoying as _hell,_ especially when you can’t do anything against them. It doesn’t require much skill, either, and the reason top players don’t use them is because it’s a boring archetype to watch and no one wants people to get bored watching them spam projectiles endlessly until their opponent dies or gives up.
@@sarcasticsuperjerk18 Annoying, I agree. Saying it doesn't require much skill is just incorrect though.
@@absoul112 How so? From my experiences playing with them they don’t require much skill unless they’re normal-based zoners. They’re easy to pick up and cheese with, I’m open to reasons as to HOW they’d be difficult but as of now my opinion is anyone who says zoners are actually complex in any capacity is just a liar. Just spam projectiles at the farther end of the screen and chip them out, boom, dead, ez win.
Funnily enough, Zoning characters are what got me into playing fighting games more competitively, since apparently there's something wrong with my emotions because they won't let me get hype from high execution stuff like most people. I watched Link Vs Snake in Smash, and it was just fun to watch all the ways they try to deny space for the other to move to, and the timings they needed to make for their projectiles, while knowing when to use the more close range attacks. So much chaos with projectiles everywhere, so much action happening constantly. With that said, in smash while I find the archetype more fun than other archetypes, there aren't any zoner characters that make me want to main them. My top 10 favorites to play are usually all close/mid range fighters. Maybe my main Sephiroth with his massive sword (but wants a specific distance), or Inkling (who uses the projectiles to ink opponents so they can deal more damage with their close range combos).
Zoners in traditional games are a case by case basis for me though. I think a regular Hadouken is a wonderful projectile. Characters that become almost untouchable because of their projectiles just seems like overkill.
Picking up Guilty Gear Strive soon, and gotta say Axl was up there for a choice to be a main for a long time (though Ky, Potemkin, Faust, Zato, Giovanna, are all tempting too). However, knowing Jack-O is in the game, I gotta main her.
I think that the only Zoner I've ever seriously played was Yuzuriha in BBTag. When I started using her, I didn't even realize that she was meant to be a Zoner. I only picked her up because she looked cool. I didn't think that she'd end up being my favorite character in the roster. To this day I still haven't played Under-Night (the game that she's from).
Yuzuriha is dramatically different in her own game she is way harder but I say stronger I would recommend Hilda and Phonon for zoning
I'm a zoner/puppet main with most fighting games, it's very fun from my perspective and honestly it was much much harder to learn how to play them well than characters like rushdowns or shotos who are for the most part quite straightforward. We usually get pretty bad fame from people who've never played our characters so thanks for reminding people it's not as easy as it looks
During the Mortal Kombat 9 era, i had a friend that used to practice a lot in training mode to do the highest damage combos possible, setup for those combos and okizeme.
When he saw footage of a MK9 tournament, he thought they where all shit, since the damage of their combos where "suboptimal" and they couldn't get in easily against zoners, that was until he entered a tournament himself and got absolutely bodied in the first match by a Kabal player who zoned him super hard during the entire match, (and he was playing Raiden, who, has a teleport).
He got double flawless, and even after that, when i showed him how to insta air gas blast (wich he was unable to do himself) he straight up quitted the game for good, not playing it even casually for fun.
He said that if the game gives you tools that stop your adversary's most mechanical demanding stuff, it sucks and it doesn't deserve to be played.
I think that what i want to say with that is that sometimes rushdown players (not all of them mind you) are too self entitled. If you are not playing their way you suck and you are playing the game wrong or you don't have skill or bla bla bla...
Those are sentiments that i see very frequently and i think it sucks, since zoning and grappling are two very fun and interesting ways to play and bring a lot of skills you usually wouldn't think about while playing a rushdown character.
To answer your question I have played what some people consider a a midrange to zoner kind of character. I played Phonon in UNICLR and that was pretty much my first fighting game. I liked how I could throw out pokes based on what I thought the opponent was going to do or if I wasn't sure I could throw out something that could cover a lot of options. It was also nice to feel like I had the advantage at round start; outside of like the Hilda match up where it felt pretty even. Now I mostly play characters that have good midrange *and* have something I can use really well up close. Baiken with mix ups and nice pokes in Strive, Es with her fireballs and big buttons and abusing plus frames and the strike throw game in BBCF, and Red Arcueid with her decent mix ups, armored moves and long range fire balls in Type Lumina. Though I guess I'm not really someone that dislikes zoners, so you probably weren't talking to me.
Frieza over in the hell that is FighterZ, getting worse zoning projectiles than the best grappler in the game:
OH YOUR THIS PERSON!!!
I never realized you made this video.
This is my first time watching it but I have seen it in my feed so many times...
I think people forget one thing, in grappler v rushdown, the grappler needs one good reed. In zoner v rushdown if the rushdown gets one good read zoners just fucking die.
Title Correction: Zoners Are A Necessary Good. Someone's gotta help people appreciate all of the ranges in the game instead of just point blank. And having big-ass buttons is cool as hell- why swing my fists when I can swing a huge sword or shoot a giant gun?
As a zoner main, I can only say that zoners tend to be a low skill floor but a high skill ceiling characters. It's basically the opposite of a grappler. Oh sure, you can spam projectiles but one misinput, you basically lost half of your HP bar. While a grappler needs to be careful of when to approach, zoners need to be careful of when and where to place projectiles.
As a yomi hustle player who doesn’t really play other fighting games, fighting wizard in real time sounds… **fun** 👁️👁️💀
"If it gets to a point where you can't play the game because the screen is filled with projectiles"
Captian Ginyu mains:
I think the fundamental issue is *specifically* when you lose to a zoner. Beating a zoner feels good in a way similar to popping a pimple, or scratching an itch in a weird corner of your back. When you fail to do those things, it’s inherently unsatisfying- you put in great effort for what ultimately feels like nothing. While losing can always feel frustrating, especially for new players, losing to a zoner inherently feels worse than losing to other archetypes.
It’s a similar deal to fighting stall in Pokémon and other similar things, and a conundrum for sure. But I don’t think it’s an unsolvable one- just one that requires developers with more creative solutions than the genre-wide watering down of an entire archetype.
Zoning is a fun way to play the game. Being on the opposite end of zoning for the first time was humbling and got me to level up my dash blocking. I enjoy that feeling of being in control and knowing one fuck up can be what cost me everything. Forever a zoner player, ideally one with some of their own unique non hit box placing movement, because the latter is the most important thing to me
I don’t play zoners often, and when I do I struggle, but one of my favorite characters in fighting games is Lambda-11 (BlazBlue Central Fiction). Basically, she’s a clone character of the game’s main zoner Nu-13, but given two or three different tools. They share similar manners of throwing swords to zone, but Lambda can transition from this to some harsh rushdown at a moment’s notice. Lambda has the ability to change her play-style on a dime, and I find that absolutely beautiful.
when i first really got into fighters i was the "all-rushdown, zoners are zero brain and boring to fight" person. but when i picked up Strive i found that Axl was the character that felt the most natural to me... so I played him. I've since switched to Testament and now i'm totally in love with playing mid-range/zoner characters. idk what switched in me but i love it. i understand that fighting long range characters is frustrating, but it really has made me play more patient and think more about my game plan. that isn't to say playing rushdown is without thinking, but i really have played with a lot more intentionality when with these more patient characters.
Watching two high level zoners face each other in smash is like watching a dream. It's just so damn cool to see what they are gonna throw at each other next while trying to outsmart the other guy.
Zoning requires a crazy amount of decision making, reaction speed, conditioning, and prediction. Since they don't have a set "win condition" where they quickly snowball you to death like rushdowns and grapplers, they're instead required to play perfectly the entire round. Especially with how poor the defensive options are for most zoners in modern FGs, on top of their typically low HP, they really can't afford to make mistakes.
I play zoners in a lot of games (like long range zoners not projectile zoners) and while I understand the criticisms of *those* players, and I could see how people might think it’s spammy or requires no skill, I wish people would try zoners before hating on them, playing as a character like axl and getting a rush down like sol or gio off of you is one of the hardest things you could attempt
Fair enough video! Though some zoners are really annoying to deal with, especially Axl. Other games like BBCF don't have that much of an issue with zoners because you have a lot of ways to approach aside from just running at your enemy with most Chars.
In GGST it's a little more hardcore with the whole "you jumped after axl fullscreen sweeped you so now we're back to fullscreen". And to answer why zoners don't get played in tourneys is because Rushdowns and Shotos control a more important part of the match thanks to oki, meaty and mixups just being so powerful
I can appreciate bbcf zoners. I still hate fighting against them, but depending on which zoner it is and the character I picked, its always an engaging chess game and doesn't always turn into "do I jump in or run up".
I feel that zoners are particularly despised because they're the hardest character archetype to design, and so they're the easiest to get wrong. Even though they are a legitimate archetype and I agree with what you say, you can't deny that they warp the dynamics of the game more than other archetypes do: by design, they make it so the majority of the match will be about approaching then, where the majority of the options at your character's disposal will be useless, as you're forced to rely on movement alone to make progress. In terms of design, I see fighting a zoner in a similar way I see underwater levels in platformers: they're a unique challenge, but one that feels restrictive as it negates the majority of tools at your disposal, and people hate it because of it.
They're definitely a tricky design space to explore, and one that, no matter what, rarely gets any recognition. Personally, I'm afraid for the future of the archetype, seeing how games like DBFZ have watered them down considerably with huge economic success. I feel like developers might take the wrong lesson from it
To me, Axl Low was the 'training wheels' that got me into GGS non-bottom ranks.
Understandable gameplan, which is directly measured by well, distance between you and the opponent; animations don't turn into a singular blob of hurt, like in the old cartoons.
I've actually used Ky Kiske at times and played him as a Psuedo-Zoner using his simple projectiles and longish range sword attacks to keep most types of players that like characters such as May, Chipp Zanuff, and Giovanna from simply trying to use their specials to rush me, and when they decide to try to jump over for some overheads, Ky has several anti air moves.
All I heard was "BLAZING! Still my heart is BLAZING!!!"
Absolutely, I'm getting tired of people only wanting to play rushdowns and dissing zoners and grapplers
They don't realize that a game full of shotos would be boring, a game full of rushdowns just anxious and that diversity is what they like without knowing it
Zoners can be fun to fight ! Grapplers can be fun to fight ! I play a zoner in GGST and have a blast against Potemkin and Axl, I play a rushdown on SFV and have fun against Dhalsim and Zangief. Maybe I just like these games a lot and my characters a lot too, but I think this diversity is exactly what makes those games great, good, fun and fair for everyone
Most fighting games would never let that happen: injustice two enters the building
Tbh I don’t mind zoners ads a bit of variety and makes you have to think about how to deal with them keeping you out of the range you want to be in. If there wasent zoners idk would feel like something is missing.
I just got back into strive recently and picked axl as my character and mow I giggle every time I hit a winter mantis into one vision from across the screen
I find Juri as an interesting example, because her archetype to me is very focused on an Outboxing style; not strictly pushing the opponent away (although it is moreso her emphasis in 4), but mainly keeping the opponent locked down at mid range, making them whiff their melee buttons and then counter-poking them with her own, all while building resources while the opponent isnt directly engaging to make the next time she does get an opening stronger.
Overall her playstyle leans more towards zoning than the other major archetypes but she also has the aspect of her switch that she can flip with her installs to go into full rushdown for a brief period.
I adore zoning. The fear I have when I make the wrong bet and the opponent is in my grill makes me feel alive
Peacock moment.
You're not safe when you're away from her, but you aint safe when you get close either because good zoning implies having backups to the opponent getting too close for you to spam 8 ball bombs and lasers on their back eye.
3:10 "I have no idea how accurate this is I'm just using it as an example, but because it's Reddit I imagine it's complete cap"
I never got the hate behind zoners, it's just a different aspect of the game that makes you play a different way. I tend to like zoners since while mechanically most of them aren't difficult, it makes me feel big brain when I manage to keep space and play to my wincon. Resetting neutral against a rushdown and managing to read their approach is just a feels good moment in a way that I can't get from other games.
This man it's a machine of good content
Zoners are fun. You stay over there and I stay over here. None of us have to worry about the corner to much.
As a wizard main in Y.O.M.I husle I can agree
idk how I ended up playing zoners. there was a time where I just wanted to ungabunga too and I thought I was too dumb to play zoners. I really got into charge inputs which tend to be defensive in nature. I quickly became a Vega main and a Guile enjoyer, among other charge characters (and occasional grappler) I didn't consider Guile a zoner, I thought he was a footsies and reaction/punish based character. Following that trend I would end up playing Axl for the same reasons(and I like his weapon) and now my friends consider me the zoner player. :(
The only time I felt hate though was when I played Xrd Jack-O but I honestly think more people needed to learn the MU. Playing her, you feel where her weakness are and if more people exploited them I don't think as many people would complain about her.
As a zoner main myself, yes I do pick them because they are easier to play. Mostly talking inputs. No combos, no crossups, no frame perfect mixups. Just fullscreen mids. But I unga, therefore I bunga so I pocket a grappler in every fighting game I've ever played, just in case I get bored of not being wanted enywhere.
Zoners in BBTAG pisses me off to no end in sight. Grapplers comes a close second. When said Zoners are up close to people, they would block you, use Reject Guard, Zone again, gets up close, BLOCK AGAIN. The greatest example of this is Hilda because it takes ONE button for a TOD starter. ONE. Not 2 or more. ONE. And that’s it.
When he said "Can you imagine how boring the game would be if every matchup was an oinga vs boinga?" I immediatly thought of DBFZ
I actually really like watching fights against zoners. (especially, mu-12)
"no modern fighting game would let that happen". *Looks hard at nether realms*
Zoning is an art, is something you need to think a bunch when you play them, since your options usually limit one approach, but are a terrible choice against other choices. So your gameplan is either throw everything at people or, in a similar wave of thinking with the grapplers, condition your foe to do what you want.
A pretty good example I can think of is the best bae from The King of Fighters, the badass bouncer King. She's a zoner by heart, with tools like DPs, good normals with good range and a fireball that can be used twice in a row. She's usually mid to higher tier because her kit is consistent, and generally she is considered a good character for begginers since her gameplan is quite easy: throw Venon Spikes, use your kicks and sometimes grab then doing things with your Anti Airs (including a C that it is 5 frames, what the fuck). But she gets pretty difficult the more the level of the players increases, because her tools lose the "autodrive" mentality that people think of when they grab her and turn into a rock/paper/scissors situation. At some games, even at full screen, you can be baited and caught if you throw a Double Strike and your foe read it, since Super Jumps allow you to reach the other side of the screen and now you are minus against a dude that can blow you up in an interaction. But wait, what if, instead of throwing two fireballs, you throw one and, on the Super Jump, throw a C or a DP? Now the game keeps at your condition, with you either going for your combo, spacing out your buttons or going for the Command Grab (depending of the version, also what the fuck a zoner has a command grab?). But what if they roll the fireball instead of jumping over? Then you can try to reach him with your slide (3B) or go for the grab or even cover the roll with your long, fancy legs.
It's a game of knowledge and condition, which, at least for me, it's the big fun on fighting games. I am fairly slow on my execution, so I can't really Oonga the Boonga, but with zoners, I can keep playing a spacing game and, when I feel confident, go for the combo (unless the character requires APM closer to Starcraft players like HC).
Fun fact: there are psychopaths that think making the grapplers also act as the Zoners is a good idea.
im looking at you Z broly and that guy from Yatagarasu
@@Imanifestchaos We don't talk about the train...
I think most people hate zoners because their attention span is less than zero
I usually play a zoner, shoto, and setup character in nearly every fighting game I play. (Hakumen/Lamda 11, Axl/Ky/Slayer, Chie/Yukiko/Junpei)
-Rushdown/anime player is stunned to discover that neutral exists
-Super Bronze in SFV
Yeah, it checks out.
Nu 13 made me fall in love with zoners.
I generally pick Sagat because I know how he plays, and he doesn't do weird stuff. I like having big, mid-range limbs and hate having to do rote memorization in general so SF pretty much forces me to pick a zoner.
Zoners are my favorite archetype
4:58 Nope because I play smash ultimate and in ultimate, once you finally get in your met with a very good up close attack
As a King main in KoF:
Zoners can be rushdown if you're not a fucking coward.
Why does every single FGC video have Infinite Azure playing in the background?
Depends on the game. I remember the guy who managed to get top 16 I think and then subsequently banned for playing Sheeva in a big tournament for MK11. Also in that game finals for every big tournament often came down to Cetrion and Joker zoner keepaway (I know Joker isn't a zoner in that game but he did often play keepaway with his long pokes and projectiles). Even Jade was showing up in tournaments a lot before people discovered how busted Cetrion was.
I'm a zoner and I keep seeing people do this when I play Axl so I'm just gonna say it. Do NOT just run straight forward at a zoner if they aren't stuck in an animation. Axl's 2B and some other attacks will counter that. Atleast try to JUMP (even then there are anti-air attacks) instead of RUNNING IN A STRAIGHT LINE. I have lost count of all the Chipp players, Gio players, etc. that just hold forward and get smacked IMMEDIATELY. You are not invincible when you run. I don't care how fast you are, I'm just gonna hold down and tap B and you WILL die. This may apply to just Axl but still, don't just run forward at zoners or in general.
I think zoners are valid, and I certainly don't think they require no skill as some would suggest. That said, every time I fight a Happy Chaos, I want to acquaint my controller with the floor at a high rate of speed.
Archetypes and Semi Archetypes.
Rushdown
Grappler
Zoner
All-rounder
Shoto
Glass Canons (Often Rushdowns with lower health but damage like you hitting some one with a bullet train)
Coming from Blazblue and being a Lambda/Nu main since Continnum Shift, zoners have always been some of my favourite characters in every fg. I can agree that some of them can be pretty annoying to deal with and very boring to play/watch but when done right man, especially when done by arc sys, they can be the sickest characters in the roster (Lamnda, Nu, Venom and Chaos are the best exemples Imo). Also playing zoning characters helps a lot when trying to learn spacing and most importantly blocking since most of them don't have really good defensive options.
So yea zoners can be sick, but if you are a briish man with sickles or a strechy indian old man who breaths fire I am going to invade your personal space
RTS has Zoning playstyle. You make some scary stuff that could destroy their stuff, but can be easily avoided. Basically it keeps them off your shit until you can roll out and take over the map.
Great points made. I'd love to see one based on Grapplers
I love watching peacock matches in skullgirls. Solo peacock happy birthday on the inevitable desperation assist lets go
zoners are a lot more fun when they're combined with another archetype, like ciel and i-no (at least in +R, can't speak for the current strive meta), they have good zoning tools, but they're largely only meant to open up characters to get their shit mixed
Oh fuck yea, gecko released a zoner video LETS GOOOOO
At the end of the day people just like different things and that's it. I find zoning fun contrary to rushdown because I like meticulous and tricky play and I don't care what people think about it.
@gekkosquirrel I wanted to make a video would you be alright is I used like a 5 second snippet of one of your vids?
I dropped a like the instant I heard Hades music.
Any zoner mains here have to switch off your main because they're too annoying for your friendgroup?
oh my God yes
yup
I have been asked but I refuse to, zoners are part of the game and if they don't like it they shouldn't play
I thought you were about to slowly fade in either IJ1 Supes or IJ2 Deathstroke when you were saying no* they shouldn't be banned, but that's probably what happens when I talk fighting games with WonderChef so often because he is perpetually traumatised from those characters.
If there was one video where strive is a bad example, it's this. Strive is like completely Rushdown: the Game
That's Guilty Gear in general. They are very aggressive inclined games.
In celebration of Kid Icarus Uprising's 10th Anniversary, I will post what I have to say about long range combatants, or zoners as people will call them. LR (long range) combat is, quite simply, polarizing, the result of how it can invent character bias all too easily. Here's a RPS triangle to consider: Heavy Infantry beats Cavalry by shaking off their quick strikes; Cavalry beats Artillery by closing the distance; and, most relevant, Artillery beats Heavy Infantry by staying out of close range more easily. See the point I'm making? If you don't, LR combat being powerful skews in favor of the faster characters, simply because those characters can break through and wreak havoc. We want a system where RPS triangle subversion can happen but relies so much on skill to do so.
Why does this make Kid Icarus Uprising relevant? Well, I got into it because it provided the Power system, and that particularly stands out as a happy medium to an aspect of fighting games that is important: virtually unconditional flinching. I know fighting games give certain moves superarmor, but those tend to be a case of Guide Dang It. Other than that, I need only point out how it's so biased against the characters representing Heavy Infantry in the above RPS triangle. Those characters not only get shelled by LR attacks repeatedly and more easily and keep getting sent back, but also prove to be easy targets for combos to the point of being glorified pi(n)atas even when at close range where they're supposed to excel. This, needless to say, is frustrating.
What is KIU's solution? Make a Power called Super Armor as a 20 seconds per charge duration buff that prevents knockback to the user and reduces the damage they take by 30%. This being a Power means that it not only has limited charges per match, but it also uses up space on the Power Grid that could be going to another Power such as Energy Charge or Petrify Attack, both emphasized enough to make it one of the less cost-effective buff powers. Even so, just having this around deters overreliance on combos as a result of temporarily shutting them out on buffered input, which even includes the start of a getup, and it also allows for shaking off long range attacks.
KIU's Power system didn't even stop there, and it didn't even stop with another Armor Power, Counter, that is more risk-reward. You can search for a blog post of mine titled "Clubs in Kid Icarus Uprising VS Heavies in Smash Bros." if you need particular details, but I can also especially point out how LR combatants tend to still have better mobility against the Heavy Infantry characters, not an accomplishment but it's still a critical advantage. Equalizing this effectively falls on managing at least one of three options:
-Burst mobility
-Projectile homing
-Immobilization application
That last one ends up with the last reliability for the Heavy Infantry character, and in the case of KIU, your best bet is a Power called Black Hole, which places a momentary black hole beacon at mid range to vacuum opponents to its location. Don't worry, there are ways to nullify Black Hole's effectiveness in this regard; the bulk of them just happen to involve the Power system itself, and therein lies the point: long range combat ends up with more methodical gameplay, when shaking the LR attacks off becomes efficient enough as a result of having a more consistent point. When I'm realizing a lot better about whether I'm dealing with a precision aiming shot Staff, a heightened homing-to-velocity ratio Bow, or an explosive trapper-focused Cannon, something is going right. You point out about patience being a virtue. I like to think adding interaction that supports this notion like what happens here makes long range combat MUCH better design. At that point, long range having the tools to combat the faster characters becomes more than fine.
Now yes, Kid Icarus Uprising is a different game and does also have its balance problems particularly with weapon modifiers, but it has points definitely worth looking into.
Infinite azure is a great song when I hear it on UA-cam. I am addicted to making noise tho
I`m definitely no zoner player, but if i were to ever see someone rock something like a Nu-13 (or any of her sisters for that matter), a Zato or something of the like, i gain respect for them purely because each time i see a zoner moveset my already monke brain just turns further into mush. I can barely create combos, i could NEVER pull off something a zoner can.