The Rogue Invitational 2023 Results
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- Опубліковано 31 жов 2023
- You can watch the full competition on the @roguefitness UA-cam Channel
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My biggest issue with the show was how it just practically cut off strongman after the last event. On the stream they never announced the final results just the winner. They also didn't cover the award ceremony. It was super small in the background with no audio.
Agreed. I would have liked to have seen the award ceremony as I wasn't sure who won the last event. They also cut off events on the crossfit competition when they ran out of time. I would have liked if they ran out of time for any of the events in the current day that they started the next day with what was missed. They have the downtime during the live stream feed with hours of downtime while they set up for the next events. I started watching the invitational for the cross fit events several years ago; but I've enjoyed having the strongmen events added. If you have two competitions going on I would like for both to have the same value of coverage.
Yeah felt a bit disrespectful
I don't care about any controversy, I just want to say that Tom's performance on the log for reps was one of the best I've ever seen. Absolutely flawless
WELL THATS WHERE HE LOST IT........SAD
@@shy7697he lost it on the deadlift
@@shy7697 U Ok hun?
Tom’s log was impressive considering the pace it required and the number of good log lifters in the contest. His deadlift seemed like he didn’t dig deep to get another rep or two. His fourth lift didn’t seem that tough. His shoe selection didn’t seem to do him any favors on the sled pull. It’s like his shoes were too big for him to push without them slipping and eventually coming off. Ordinarily you’d think he would have been top 2/3 at the very least.
log was a bit light but true. It's strongman, I would have liked to see a max log since they took out the Axel
One thing i felt was a bit of a high point was Luke getting a rep on the deadlift, between Shaw, Cardiff, and Rogue his deadlift really is looking better than ever
Sincere best wishes to Trey. Such a badly dealt hand.
The most important thing is better communication to the fans on everything. Also show the strongman awards on stream please.
I think the awards was a weather issue. It was held in the background between crossfit events while the broadcast was on break. I also think (which wasn't mentioned in the video) that there was some issue with the 'Duel' start (call vs beep) because I though Mitch finished 1st but he was scored 2nd on the event, and I think they were sorting it out behind the scenes.
This weekend provided a reminder for old fans and a slap in the face for very new ones how damn good Mateusz is when he's in shape and has good events. He zeroed on the first event and still ended up on the podium. How often does that happen, seriously? For my money, forget Brian and Zydrunas and Thor--You want an impressive feat of strongman, you look at peak performance Mateusz. The Bull sled, the Stone to Shoulder at the Arnold, the Rogue-a-Coaster, all of it. He didn't earn the nickname the Terminator on a whim. When he's on his A-game, he absolutely A N N I H I L A T E S the competition.
Agree. That said, didn’t Tom zero on the first event at the Shaw this year and finish third?
Tom did and won 4 events I believe, but Tom also had 7 more events to make up for it, but not taking anything away from it. Tom's a beast@@jamespants6591
When is he ever on his A game? His most impressive results are two second places in WSM (in 2019, one point ahead of Thor who could barely move). His biggest win is either a Giants Live event (3x) or 2019 WUS. He is nowhere near Brian, Thor, or Z. He's not even on Eddie Hall's tier. I think his closest modern equivalent is more like Evan Singleton (5x Giants live show winner).
The problem is that until he improves his deadlift, he has very little chance at ever winning an international title. A strong deadlift is essential in strongman and being great in the other events can only carry him so far.
I agree that he’s definitely one of the best when he’s healthy and in shape, but that deadlift needs to get better or else he’s going to be forever playing catch-up in all the major competitions.
@@phillipsmith1489 he is way above eddie. to me his most impressive performance is arnold's 2020, where no other person in strongman history could have beaten him, except prime hafthor, who unluckily for him happened to be at the contest aswell. and that despite a deadlift being in there. winning 4/6 events at the arnolds against prime hafthor is ridiculous
I think the rogueacoaster should be combined with the loading event, have the athlete's load up the sandbags then pull it up. I think that would make for a fun final event. Also have fireworks go off when the bags hit the crash pad at the bottom.
Great idea
Who plans major events like this without a plan to postpone due to weather or have a weather contingency plan for the original days scheduled? A child’s birthday party gets more planning than this event apparently.
Love the deadlift idea (add on the CrossFit weight). That would be awesome. Mateusz should go live with Rauno for a couple of months, what a difference a few reps could make.
Absolute garbage reffing on Hoopers reps on log. Im tired of his soft/questionable lockouts on log, deadlifts and monster dumbbell. It's time this gets addressed and the refs take this seriously. We dont get this garbage at the Shaw Classic for the most part.
And Hooper still got podium at the Shaw...
So? Bad lockouts are bad lockouts dude. Doesnt matter who the athlete is.@@paradoxicalpeace5664
okay, but the judging WAS trash at this specific event, it WAS an issue, clearly, to anyone with eyeballs. @@paradoxicalpeace5664
Mateusz confirmed in a comment on Instagram that he didn’t know the rule, he missed the rule meeting for the event. I assume because it’s log for reps he didn’t look at the event rules because he may have assumed it was going to be business as usual.
As far as Mitch goes, the commentary literally mentioned during the early competitors that Mitch had gotten this rule clarified, so not like he just sprang it on people.
@@kurtwpg He chatted about it in the pre-event interview, no one had any business being surprised
Yes, Mateusz heard the wistle and dropped the log. What a shame.
The real problem with having different rules at every comp is that they need to make sure they are translating these rules into whatever other languages the guys speak. I feel for any of the guys that don't speak/read english super well trying to understand the specific intricacies of novel events.
I hadn’t thought about this. You make a good point.
This why WUS used to have Big Z at almost every athlete meeting. Dude speaks like 5 languages
Rogue is a good thing for strongman and I’m a huge fan of the Rogue Invitational. Do you think it would be a good idea for Rogue to have a committee as such like Loz, Jerry & Brian to help organise and help with event selection?
The highlight in my eyes was Tom Stoltman on the log. I agree with Mitch’s log as if the ref says down you put it down.
I think the Iron Bull pull will be a good event if they sort out the adjustments, as visually it looks awesome. Like all events at Rogue. I did think the sandbags were very close would have been better if they had to run with them.
Well done an commentary Loz
As a volunteer this year, having to move all those bags, It was very clear how impressive the Strongmen really are! it took 4 of us to move 1...7 to pull the Coaster up. I would LOVE to see Strongwomen added in the future!
I can imagine that handling the equipment these guys make light work of can give some perspective to their performance for sure. I lack a gripper for my tractor, so when I handle big haybales and struggle to even nudge them I think of how strongmen would do deadlift warmups with the same weight. 🤯
I would pick up 1 bag in each hand. Easy peasy.
Big Z needs to be the ref/judge For every overhead event going forward
Best thing about this show was Loz's commentary and Mateusz going beast mode!
The main issue people had with Mitch's log rep performance is the lack of head through towards the top of the rep, with the log in front of his face several times.
Especially after textbook technique from Tom.
It's the head not through and so many if not all reps the log is already moving forwards before the down call.
I always thought you had to be in control of the weight, if Mitch had to hold it any longer I doubt he would get even half the reps.
This is no way Mitch's fault though it is on the judges. It is like Novikov getting picked up on his deadlift when he first started strongman.
Maybe it is a matter of time before the same happens with Mitch and his unstable, head not through falling forward over chest log press he does. lol
Log still moving when down was called, is my biggest issue, but yes, head needs to come through. Mitch leans back and incline presses the log, instead of shoulder pressing, so he remains arched, with head back.
And some athletes were made to hold the lockouts, while Mitch wasn't.
Congratulations to the athletes for surviving what was the worst competition of the year! Rogue is a great company, and their involvement in Strongman is quite significant and appreciated. However, poor planning, and no contingency for the bad weather, terrible refereeing,( soft lockouts and false starting) The iron Bull Pull, etc.…
Mitch pushed the rules to the limit especially the last loading race
False start on that load lifting
Tom had both hands on the rope before the whistle on the rogue a coaster, the lock outs on log for Mitch were questionable, loading event was….. none of that is on the athlete especially when there is no consistency on the judging
You say Go or you use a horn. Doing both and not even synchronizing them is idiocy.
100% and it was a really weird event in general to end the comp with. I know all these shows are different promotions but there needs to be some standards among all the top comps.
I like the idea of having the guys pull the sled using a horizontal ladder because I think the surface was dangerously slippery. It caused Trey's injury and Tom's shoe coming off.
I love all the ideas from Big Loz at the end. Would be a way to make the strongman events feel more of a part of the Invitational. On the feedback, it comes with many comps but it's the issue with consistency in refereeing that is the most valid complaint. Like you said, there needs to be standard rules and training for refs so that these issues don't crop up.
But SERIOUS, why take out BOTH the fingers to Log AND the Axle? Why not just keep the Axle? What was the logic behind that? Like, what difference is there between an indoor log and axle?
I really wanted to see the axle
@BigLozOfficial your commentary was the best thing about the competition
Thomas Evans is GREAT GUY!!! I enjoy watching & cheering him on. I have known him for many years.
Sounds like your team mich. His reps look like he's gonna break his back every time. Looks painful.
With those ideas of yours, I vote you for event planner! I missed the Conan's wheel as well. That one is just visually awesome and a nostalgic strength implement for me from watching Arnold grow the movie. I know everyone does stones but I didn't realize how much I'd miss them until they were replaced with sand bags.
Honestly stone to shoulder at the Arnold's that year was fun to watch.
I'd like to see an all stone event! Flintstone press, pull a stack of stones, stone throw, etc. 🔥
It was so lovely to see Auntie Liz on the sidelines while listening to Loz commentating! And Odd in the background too-just amazing!! Thank you so much!! ❤ from Canada
Loz, I LOVE your ideas for events. Make it so!
Having the overall leader go last on every event instead of the previous event winner, I didn't like. Makes it too hard to climb out of a hole, and gives the same athletes an advantage on every event.
These post comp breakdown in detail videos are my favorite. Thank you guys for this video! Marine Mike 🇺🇸 💪
Toms log was so clean for 10 compared to Hoopers contentious 9 (that maybe was 5 or 6 for real and helped hoopy win a comp he shouldn't have), the real controversy was the refs and officials decision making messed up the whole show.
That idea for the deadlift would be amazing.
And yeah rogue didn’t have the best time. But they are pushing the sport and I am happy with it. Things can only go up and they are improving.
It felt like the Strongman was an afterthought on the production team. They didn't do barely any interviews, didn't show the podiums and trophy awarding, and the final event was a giant nothing burger that left me saying "Is that it?!"
I don't want to see it turn into Giants Live, where they interview every athlete in every event. That's such a punish, as a spectator. They bang on about being fast paced, then stall as much as they can.
@@damiensmith9240 you don't have to watch them.. 🤷♂️
The Dual has to be one of the worst events I’ve ever watched. So much potential with such poor execution.
Exactly. There was no duel. Pretty sure they changed it because of the weather. It was supposed to be an elimination event ending in 1 v1 duel.
The rain ( weather not drink) caused changes. Rouge still did their best for CrossFit and Strongman. Was it a great experience , No.However, it was FREE to watch. Thank you Rouge.
Golf is also free to watch and I don't because it's not an enjoyable experience for me. They need to hear about it when they do poorly because they've definitely had enough praise for the past two years they did well.
Why do you say they did their best? I would get fired if that were my best.
You’d rather have an awful FREE experience than pay some money? Not me. You get what you pay for.
I disagree , Rogue put a lot of time, thought, effort and money into The Rogue Invitational. @@fakename5015
If it had not rained would the show have been as good as the last two? I think so.@@DallasG83
I think the racking issue with the iron bull can be eliminated by adding a few wheels (maybe spring loaded to ensure tension) on each side that pinch inward on the sides of the rails. That way the sled still sits full weight on top of the rails to keep the constant resistance peice of the implement. I think 4 or 5 on each side would fix it right up.
The log for reps was the most competitive and thus exciting event of this comp.hands down.
Love your recommendations, Loz!! And glad to know I wasn’t alone in thinking that sandbag medley was an underwhelming finale and not really a Strongman event. Despite a few hiccups, overall Rogue did a good job with the hand they were dealt. So I continue in my loyalty to Rogue because, like you said, it is a wonderful company for growing our sport.
That sandbag load was so incredibly udnerwhelming.
Love your ideas Loz!!!
Just goes to show why the Shaw Classic is the best run and ref competition
25:52 LOZ GETS IT! Strong man is about the show of the strength. Make it extravagant.
I love your ideas to improve the events . Hope they will take them in.
When did putting the head through the log not be part of strongman competition rules? That's the phrase I always used to hear.
Thanks, good thoughts. Contingency planning - it came across that the organisers were making it up as they go along, rather than implementing plans!
It was a mess to watch as a fan with all of the last minute changes. I really hope that strongman won’t appear to be an afterthought next year.
Yes. Too much Crossfit. I don't want to watch someone on an exercise bike or doing chin ups. Crossfit is boring.
@@speedy692To be fair, the Rogue Invitational is first and foremost a CrossFit competition. It’s the second largest of the year and has been running for years prior to Rogue adding strongman.
It would be nice if they made it easier to watch one without the other, but without the CrossFit competition I doubt Rogue would be putting on a strongman show of this scale if they did at all.
@@lukebbuff I realise & appreciate everything you said. I'm a Cyclist & keep fit etc. I appreciate how fit the Crossfitters are, but some of their events are boring to watch. Maybe Rogue could think of more interesting events for them, watching someone do pull ups or on an exercise bike for me is really boring.
@@lukebbuffyeah you're spot on. I'm not a fan of cross fit at all, but at the end of the day it's still the main draw and funding. As the strongman side of things grows, I hope it will I prove in quality and importance.
You can always just not watch the CrossFit events. That’s what I did. The times of the strongman events are posted. In between you can watch eg football.
Agree on the Bull...
You could use the apparatus for 2 different events..
Hand over Hand Coaster..
Replace basket with bull..keep wheels..
Then incorporate leg pull...
At top special effects..
i love you guys❤❤❤
The Record Breakers looked like a bad gym event.
Also love Loz idea for the sled pull. Would look visually incredible and the weight moving up into the air is always impressive to the fans
I should think with the log press for reps you should lock out arms and legs and be stable with the weight above head before getting a down signal! I think the whole body should be stable and under control basically
I loved the first 2 Rogue Invitationals but sadly, as many have said, this year didn't quite work, not just from an event standpoint, but also from a visual standpoint on some of the events. Also, the final event just felt wrong for strongmen.
All that being said though. I think this could be a good thing for Rogue in the long run, and it may make them think about events slightly differently and be able to plan for something like the weather causing issues much better in the future.
Unfortunately more lows then highs with this comp. Sad to see Trey hurt but let’s be honest here the bull was a disaster, the axil and fingers were scrapped, the loading event was a head scratcher as well, some of the judging was questionable (not the athletes fault) and there seemed to be no backup if the weather was poor. Congrats to Mitch and Tom for their performances.
I’m sure Rogue will bounce back next year with a much better competition. They’re still a huge positive for the sport.
@@brandonm4550maybe, this comp doesn't prove that they will.
The 2 previous were really good comps. I think they still probably want this to be a premier strongman event each year, but I can understand where you’re coming from too.
Yes continuity on rules such as the log lift, like what a correct lockout should be
I think it was hust a case of insufficient risk planning for thr weather - like they didn't take the risk of rain that seriously, and didn't go in with sufficient mitigations ("if it rains we'll just move it inside"). They'll learn from that.
Another great video from Liz and Loz! Very measured and fair, as always.
The Bull could be set up with rollers between the sides of the bull and the rails, like a rollercoaster car, and with a ptfe type of plastic skid under the sled to allow it to glide better on the steel.
The pulling strap needs to be coming from a central attachment point.
Your Iron Bull / Roguer Coaster hybrid idea is awesome!
I liked the sled. I think if you're gonna do a pull it should be heavy enough that most don't finish.
Love your idea with the bull. I think that would be a great way to deal with the resistance issue and keep the no-momentum element (for lack of a better term) that it seems they were trying to eliminate from a truck pull type event. That would be a cool way to mix up the rogue-a-coaster rather than just three years of the same, too!
And how amazing was it for Mateuz to climb from zeroing the deadlift to the podium! What a performance after such a disappointing start.
I agree with your ideas, Loz and I loved your commentary. Your knowledge of the athletes is the best. I loved the rogueacoaster, I think the bull was impressive looking and with some tweaks could be a good event. Well done to Mitch and commiserations to poor Trey. Please bring the axle lift back to Rogue next year and show the podium on the livestream.
I think a big issue with the bull pull was a lack of testing, they had Brian doing testing a day before when he hasn't been training for strongman and not prepared for it(pulling in regular shoes). Feel something like that should have been dialed in weeks ahead of time.
They also need to test how it performs after multiple runs. And also the humidity could have been a factor.
I love a good sand bag for height. It would be really cool to have the strongmen throw a max weight bag over the rope climb pole. Bonus points if the bag they are throwing are used in a cross fit event as well.
I attended rogue this weekend and it's always worth attending to see the athletes up close in person. Their performances are absolutely incredible. My only complaint for the comp is lack of communication with the changes to fans. I got to get a great view even with the changed events, but specifically the rogue record breakers deserved a bigger stage and felt like an afterthought. Favorite performances of the weekend are Tom's log, Kieliskowski coaster, and Kevin Faires setting a new Dinnie stone record in bad conditions
I love Loz suggestion for Bull on the Rogueacoaster. I think the biggest disappointment was just simply loosing out on events we looked forward too, the actual duel the axel and even the fingers into the log, however if the weather says otherwise, strongmen of all know that shit does happen. I know its not everybody’s favourite but id love for them to do a squat for reps were it looks like the bulls head/mouth open and closes or ever looks like it swallows the weight as it gets added. Another option for a loading race would be having to load massive letters that need placed up to spell out Rogue if they are looking for cool advertising opportunities.
The Iron Bull is an easy fix.
Ditch the rail system and add some metal skis under the sled. Just have it slide on the ground like you'd normally do. And preferably, add a ladder in the middle instead of the whole rubber mat + rope thing.
In terms of Mitch’s log, I agree with Lalas brothers thoughts. On some reps the ref gave a down signal before he was even fully locked out. On most of them the ref didn’t wait for him to stabilize and catch balance.
Mitch did what he had to, i.e. put the log down when he was told he’s good. But the reffing was definitely off with that one. It’s a major show with a huge price money for the first place, the judging should be spot on. Unfortunately, it wasn’t this year. Hopefully it’ll be fixed in ‘24
I reslly really agree with the standard of rules is it not only good for making sure everyone understands everything I think it would be good for warding off injuries
Great vid, both. For me the expectation was so high given the past two shows that it was hard to believe this was the invitational. There where some really odd decisions both in the events and rules but also in dealing with the weather. I think with how good the live streams are for other shows (including giants live which started off really bad but is now exemplar) the cracks in fitting in strongman around the CrossFit showed, and it wasn’t just the rain throwing things out.
I think the rain really scuppered rogues plan and they had to do the best with the time they had. Let's hope next year things all go to plan well done team liz and loz
I love the idea of the visual demonstration of how strong these guys are. I've always wanted to see some average guy in flip flops running along side the 100m final just to see how fast the best actually are. To see this in Strongman would be awesome
The bull could be used as a dead lift like they do with cars or the grip test. The last even the dual was just over too soon and it should have been the end of a medley. It does show how hard it is to do a live event and Rogue did a good job to keep it going with the weather as it was. I just like to see Luke and Tom doing so well together and Tom is after the 3rd WSM title with spice and fire.
The loading race should end with some sort of firework. The roguecoster should be an actual Rollercoaster would help to reset the cart at the bottom. You know goes down a slope takes a turn few ups and downs a turn and it's back to the bottom. The bull thing needs to have a few tweaks I think the ladder on the floor would work.
Nice username.
They definitely need to have a back up plan for each event. The bull needs improvement, wood, metal & humidity are not a good combination.
Top suggestions:
1) if there is rain, redesign Vendor Village with a covered pavilion in the center to hold events like log press or axle press, Dinnie hold, stone to shoulder, etc
2) with 6 events, no two similar events ( two pulls, two overhead, two deadlift, etc)
3) add a pro women's division; even if that means stretching into Sunday or starting Thursday night
I actually like the timing rule from the log event and I would actually like that extended to all static rep events. You have the time limit to initiate a rep is in line with powerlifting too. You have one minute to get the start command on squat and bench or to initiate your deadlift and then you have as much time as it takes to complete the rep. I think it would lead to more exciting event finishes with people getting that one more rep started before the time ends and then grinding hard and long to finish the rep. Let’s make it standard!
That sled pull event was terrible. Relying on friction to provide the resistance is just stupid. The surfaces will scratch, heat will increase and decrease, as will moisture levels. All of these things significantly affect the friction and thus the resistance, not only between pulls, but also different parts of the track. An awful event that screwed everyone over.
missed you all's travel vlog for your trip
My main issue was not knowing what was happening and when they never gave updates on time or placements chaning events
I liked Luke's almost standing hip thrust method to pull the bull.
The anticlimactic end was disappointing 😞 your suggestions are great Loz! Get well soon Auntie Liz x
the Elephant bar deadlift too the eyes is amazing. Simplicity is best
I think the simplest idea to improve things would be do hold it at a dome field where the roof can be closed if weather is going to be a threat.
Big Loz needs his own competition he got some great ideas.
I liked that they wanted to make the Iron Bull this unique pull that the athletes have to get a feel for before they can do really well. And the implement being a wood structure on top of a metal track is part of that. BUT I don't think it's worth it if it means the event is going to be harder for each consecutive puller.
That's not to take anything away from Mateusz though. I think we all expected him to place highly on that event regardless of circumstances.
fully agreed!
we need to keep Rogue in Strongman
dont antagonize them.
work with them to make each year better than last
I like the idea of the iron bull pull, where it’s a continuous pull the entire track with no assistance from momentum.
My idea to improve it would be to keep the bull head on a track but rig the weight to a pulley system, like a cable machine
You’d still get a visual spectacle and it could be potentially small enough to fit inside a building.
It seems like Rouge is married to Dell Diamond Stadium. If we want more events to be held indoors, I think we should be ready for the implements to be more compact.
That or they add things to improve grip and traction. And build things in a way that can reduce the effects of humidity
Do you think the other strongmen are worried about the day (if ever) Mateus improves his deadlift?
It's so hard to see how talented he is at everything else then see how subpar (compared to other elite strongmen) he is at deadlift. He might have won the Arnolds and Rogue otherwise.
Think they gonna be worried if there is a comp were you have a squat instead of a deadlift
Yeah, certainly agree the last event was underwhelming, as a last event it should be exciting and inspiring for the crowd.
Loz for future Event Planner!!
Your commentary has gotten very good, Loz. Really fill dead air comfortably. I think this UA-cam stuff helps, No?
100% agree constructive ideas are necessary to help them improve while mindless hate will just put Rogue off
All the logs looked good
I think it was a very good show. Yes the rain through a wrench into the works and the iron bull probably needed more testing. But Rogue make absolutely incredible kit. Definitely want and need them in the sport. I am confident they will take away some valuable information from the show just as Brian has done each year with the Shaw Classic.
Brian was quick to get online each year and talk about what he knew could be done better and promised it would be the following year. I don't know if Rogue necessarily needs to do that, but I am sure they are just as committed as Brian to putting together a great show. As a fan, I am very grateful to them for putting on this show and being part of taking strength sports to the next level.
The sound for your commentary at the Rogue was great- Giants Live could take some notes from Rogue on that.
I saw liz on the live stream! Believe it was when they were interviewing mitch in the corridor before one of the 2 events in there.
I hope Rouge puts Loz in charge of the comp next year. The bull going up the coaster and then smoke coming out of nose would be hella epic!!! Yes!!
Could it have been a better event? Yes. Will Rogue make it a better event next year? Yes. The weather can’t be controlled. The Bull, well, everyone got to endure the same suck. The devil’s in the details (log lift rule change). Rogue did an excellent job keeping safety in mind for all who competed and adjusted as in a manner that kept the competition fair. Looking forward to next year. Congrats to all who competed! And your commentary helped to elevate the entire event. Thank you.
I'm still gutted over them pulling the axles out of the comp. We've been needing to see that event again for so long.
The sandbag steeple chase from Giants Live would have been a better but similar finale event. Could have still loaded into the Teeter Toter.Rogue have done a great job by adding Strongman into their main show which is CrossFit .
I like the fact they (rogue) try new things. This year the weather changed had them change things up. Im bummed but I understand why they did what they did and trust rogue will make improvements. The rogue strongman invitational is one of my favorite strongman shows .
I think it would've gone well had the weather not been an issue. I'm glad Rogue was thinking of all the strongmen's safety. I would've rather them pushed back some of the events to Sunday to let the weather clear up a bit. It's hard having an outside show. Look at WSM this year. You want to keep athletes safe and I'm glad they did that. It's a learning curve. I'm glad Rogue puts this on but it's their third year doing this competition so there will be learning curves.