Ladder Bars Drag Racing Rear Suspension Setup
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2020
- Ladder Bar Drag Race rear suspension setup! Slicks or Radials! Drag racing suspension tuning with ladder bars.
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Ladder bar setups are simple and have been around for a long time. While it doesn't offer the amount of tuning locations for the Instant center as a 4 link does, it is a practical option for many drag racers who are applying decent power to the track. You can still tune pinion angle and set your pre load. Ladder bar rear suspensions can and do work when installed properly for the car's setup.
This video discusses ladder bar setup and the relation a ladder bar has with the Anti Squat line of your car. How to add more bit, how to remove bit is all covered in this video. The same principles apply to how you tune your coilover shocks and springs, or leaf springs, and the front mount points of your ladder bars will help determine the amount of bite your car applies on the hit and during the run. Compression and Rebound on the double adjustable shocks has the same approach based on your instant center anti squat calculations.
Samson Performance of Sam's Alignment in North Charleston, SC:
Get with us at our shop to let us help you scale your car and do a complete plot of your car as it is today and then we can discuss what changes, if any, we would recommend. We do drag car chassis tuning, chassis setup and ensure the suspension is setup for the best drag racing launches possible! We also offer online remote services from our website here below:
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Kevin Wilson has taught me how to adjust the suspension in my car. Just this week I set a personal best off the trailer! the car is now using no preload and drives perfectly straight. my crew understands how how to record video and make adjustments also from these videos. I cant thank you enough for these lessons because all the books never explained it like you do.
Victor Dahn thanks so much for your comments and feedback on how the channel has helped you! Always good to hear racers learning more so they can feel more comfortable making suspension tuning changes. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!
I heard about your videos from the guys on the Going Bracket Racing channel. Your suspension videos were very helpful in getting my car working correctly. Can't thank you enough for sharing the knowledge for free!
Same here. Great information on both channels!
great video Kevin Wilson. i learn a lot from you .thank you. gr. from the netherlands
jan de jong thanks so much for your comments! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Great video... thank you very much, didn't know anything about ladder bars. Went to look for a used drag car couple of weeks ago that had ladder bars mounted... interesting concept
I bought a 69 Nova with a 555 late last year and it has a ladder bar suspension in it. It sits lower on the driver's side then the passenger side and I was thinking maybe it might have something to do with the suspension tweaked somewhere or another and after watching this video I think you answered my question. I think they have it preloaded for weight over on the driver's side. I haven't gotten under the car and examined it yet because I'm in a wheelchair and well I can't just hop into my chair from the ground lol . Looking forward to getting it on a lift and really checking it out and finding out what's going on under there. Thanks for the video
Jay's Guyrage thanks so much for your comments! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
I’m building a Fox body and the 9 inch housing I bought has ladder bar mounts on it. I’m thinking of just using that set up rather than going through all the work of fabing mounts for the factory Fox set up. Then I don’t have to worry about all the torque box issues. Great video
I love my ladders! I tune mine with the shocks. I wouldn’t have it any other way!
Layton Turpin thanks so much for your comments! Thanks for subscribing and supporting the channel! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Thanks for sharing your knowledge Boss
Cant wait for front coil over setup
Syskill thanks so much for your comments! It will not be much longer on the front coilover setup video. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!
Thank you for helping me understand ladder bar adjustments Kevin! I’m setting my 9 inch rear end and ladder bar set up in my 32 chassis now.
I have one question, is it okay that my pinion sits slightly higher than the tail shaft of the transmission. My pinion angle has a positive 2.5 positive degree and the tail shaft/crankshaft line has a 2.5 negative degree. Thank you for any response.
This should help a ton, my Foxbody has a 598 and can’t get it to hook and has a tiny bit of separation, going to adjust the front ladder bar mount up a hole and do some testing
How did everything work out ? I’m curious I have a fox with a 557 and I can’t keep it on the ground it has to much bite and needing to adjust it ..
Good job Kevin
Scott Nettell thanks so much for your comments! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!
Go fast! Go straight and be safe! My motto!
Layton Turpin thanks so much for your comments! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Great video. Thank you.😊
great info man keep it up👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
KaleoCRUZE thanks so much for your comments! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Extremely helpful! 👍👍
God bless!
I like your engineering approach to this variety of different application of applied force. One thing overlooked so often is the lack of a "flexible' link in either the top or bottom member of the Ladder bar. Common Geometry will prove that as the length of any of the three is changed, there WILL be "bind".
Something will bind and forcing / elongating (slotting holes IS NOT the answer.)
You do a great job of presentation. Just thought I'd my 2 cents.
robert sears thanks so much for your comments! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
U got a sub man !!
Great videos! Ive watched them all mor than a few times already. Do you have any good info on where to install the mounts for ladder bars?
Derek Mckay thanks so much for your comments! I would recommend you checkout some of these links for installation: www.cachassisworks.com/Attachments/HowTo/HowTo-001_web.pdf and swracecars.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/ladder_bar.pdf as these have some good info in them. Generally you will 3 - 4 hole options for the chassis side. Usually we shoot to have the middle hole be pretty level so you have some option to have an upward rake and an option for a lower rake. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
What’s your opinion on the effect moving the front push point up or down has on down track traction?
If the turn buckle is on the bottom would adding preload to driver side left rear slick would it be opposite, (shorten if turn buckle is on bottom, lengthen if on top of passenger side ladder?) Thanks!
kevin i have a chev2 with an ladder bar leif spring set up . may i use a split mono with these . and ba shock with a slider and floater ? street car
i would love to hear a talk about this from an off road vehicle point of view. for some reason a ladder bar/ anti wrap bar is a hard product to find for an XJ. im not interesting in going to a 4 link.
MRgreen thanks so much for your comments and asking about off road! The off road side is out of my zone, but I am certain the ladder bar setup would work depending on your needs. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!
Thank you
Thanks for your informative input. I have a 69 camaro, ladder bars at 34" parallel to ground (bottom bar) its a stick car with a 406 sbc 4.88 gears and 2.99 1st gear. 19 lb clutch/flywheel. Using viking rear shocks. 1" extension on front ball joint. Getting wheel hop. What should I do? Clutch or shocks?
I would start with shocks, but I would need a ton more info on the current hardware, but just seeing your SLR I am pretty sure the shocks are not holding the rear suspension. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
whats your opinion on truck arm suspensions for drag racing. like the 67-72 chevy c10. can they be adjusted and dialed in to work or is that a dead end road? I'm asking because they resemble ladder bars except they are longer, so does that extra length make them not tuneable or can they be worked with. In my opinion they tend to be sort of like neutral in stock form they seem to just like to hold the back axle behind the truck and not do anything. they don't wheel hop though so i guess they are good at stoping axle wrap which makes sense if you just look at the physics of having two 4 foot I beams. it would probably do a wheelie before it even axle wrapped a micrometer.
David Craft thanks so much for your question and comments! They do a good job of locating the axle for sure, but in general, if I wanted to keep the stock style setup, I would want much stronger bars and maybe even consider some additional chassis stiffening, along with relocating bar mount points. As you lower these trucks, this impacts the chassis mount points closer to the ground and then these setups become less effective without fabricating new/different control arm locations, much like the F Body setups. We have converted many of these trucks to ladder bar setups with great success, but then again, we are much more full drag race focused. Shoot me an email if you want to go deeper on the stock style setup for more street/strip. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
@@KevinWilsonSBC I'm just barely getting my 72c10 ready to drive on the street with a stock 350. It will gradually get faster and I'm just trying to be ready for it when it makes too much power for a bone stock un tuned suspension to handle. so for now I keep watching your videos to learn whatever I can, after I actually race it and have issues then I will be back with more questions. thanks for making these videos.
Subscribed! Shopping for a set of bars now. Current bars are old Alston with adjustment on top bar. Most new bars adj is on bottom but you said you prefer adj on top. Can you elaborate?
ratheal watford thanks so much for your comments! There have been a few times I have used the passenger top bar adjuster to manipulate some pre-load. The main thing is getting pinion angle set so either top or bottom will do the trick. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!
I I'm shutting up a 78 Camaro I have Valley spring rerun going to use the latter bar suspension I want to know why they use a slip type now on this rear Springs
Without changing the front mounting point, what does changing the rear spread do? Lower/raise top and bottom. Spread from 6-11". The new car I am building I made adjustable brackets for the rear similar to a 4 link, and a double adjustable front mount. We race no prep. Abandoned airports, closed asphalt roads, hardly ever a "no prep" track. 4 links are not allowed I'm most small tire classes now.
Eddie Grimes thanks so much for your questions! I think I understand what you are asking, but may be missing your question. At a high level, we generally want the top bar within a couple of inches to the axle tube and the lower bar further away from the axle tubes. This impacts leverage that each bar can apply and hold over the run. Might be best for your to shoot me an email from my website listed in the description (samsonperformance.com) along with some pics and more info on your car and we can go into more detail. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!
I added more power. Im dead hooking and giant wheelie. Lower the front of bar?
Thanks Kevin for speaking in a manor that a simple mind can grip the message. 1 question , If you do make an adjustment on a ladder bar either up or down do you then go back and adjust pinion angle ? Your video's have sparked my brain and would like to get a better understanding of how things work.
ed heilman thanks so much for your comments and question! Definitely confirm/reset pinion angle after a bar change. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
I have a few questions if you wouldn't mind, please.
1. What is the best way to best ensure that the ladder bars are not installed in a bind and they're neutral?
2. Using scales, what would be the best starting point for preload? What would that reflect on the scales? (~3050lbs without driver - 3250 with driver and 54.5% frontal weight)
3. I have about 43" long bars since i have a 112" wheelbase car (94 tbird). What percentage anti-squat would be good to start with? 1000-1500hp turbo v6 with 2.10 TH400, 3.73 gears, 28" radials
Casey McCarty thanks so much for your questions! Please go to my website listed in the description and shoot me all the information the Suspension Tuning PDF goes over. Website is samsonperformance.com That way I can help you based on facts around your car's setup. Each car is unique so I want to make sure I am answering your questions based on your information. On your first question, you need to have the frame jacked up with the rear end hanging free. Then you want to make sure each ladder bar measures the same lengths across the angles with regard to the heim joints position screwed into each bar. Of course this assumes the rear end is square and the frame and rear mounts are square with the rear end square. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!
Does the ladder bar setup work with multi leaf springs ??
I have yet to be able to find an article on this, but I have a ladder bar set up where both left and right are in the 3rd hole but the right one is an 1/8 to 1/4 higher then the left is there a reason this could be ?
rey cadena thanks so much for your comments! Shoot me an email so we can go over more details about your setup. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
I would like to ask about the front mounts. the holes are always verticle. However, when you move the ladder bar up or down, you are not moving it in a straight line. The bar is actually swinging up or down through an arc as the rear housing rotates. shouldn't the holes in the front mount be drilled on a slight curveture so you can slip the bolt back in?
Ron Zavarella thanks so much for your comments! Some are. Regardless, after any move, you must reset ride height, then pinion angle. That is a must. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
hi doing a 84 sq body c10. not a drag,race truck a street queen. I want 9" and ladder bar suspension. help? ideas? suggestions?
thx
Hey Kevin, my question is where should the brackets be in regards to where they sit on the rearend, closer to center or further apart closer to frame?
Geez, oh man, it takes you seven minutes to even start talking about it move along already
On a ladder bar car with a lot of anti-squat.... will adding weight in the trunk help or hurt ?
I added over 300 lbs in my car for a sketchy street surface (binder) and it seemed like it hooked harder without the weight, like the weight was fighting the anti-squat 🤷♂️
SuperCar Hunter thanks so much for your question! It absolutely can hurt you. There is a bunch of debate about adding sprung weight vs unsprung weight. That is a bunch of sprung weight which changes the attitude of the car, the coil springs, and impacts the front end reaction. Was this by chance the Nova I see on your page? Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
@@KevinWilsonSBC yes sir, the Nova. I love watching your videos and Learning from them. My Nova hooks really hard on the street, even without a burnout, and on asphalt, it will almost dead hook.
So if you were to lower the front leaf spring mount closer to the ground in a leaf spring type car you would be taken away from the hit and not crush the tire as much correct?
Sorry for the silly question
I know this is a ladder bar video
joe hlavaty thanks so much for your question! This depends on what you are running with the leaf springs like CalTracs or ladder bars. Might be best to use email from my website if you want to provide a good bit more info on your setup. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!
On a ladder bar car with an antiroll bar, do you prefer to do preload adjustments with the ladder bar and set the antiroll neutral, or set the ladder bars neutral and preload the antiroll bar?
dnchevyguy3 thanks so much for your comments! Antiroll bar as a last resort. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
So can i run radials on ladder bars? I bought a car with ladder bars and don't want to switch to 4 link
@Kevin Wilson, what would you say would be the hp limit would be for a ladder bar on radials?
Milner 1 thanks so much for your question! I wish it was that easy. A ladder bar setup is really not limited by HP, but I would certainly prefer a 4 Link for more tuning with today's technology. If the suspension is right with the ladder bar (meaning center of gravity, instant center push point length and height, ride height, coilovers shocks and springs, tune, front end control, etc), I would not be afraid of limiting a ladder bar to a HP limit. Hope that makes sense! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!
I have a local friend that is running 3000+HP on a 275 radial with a ladder bar... 150+% antisquat
Hey Kevin. Now that I finally retired and can work on my stuff now. I Need your opinion. Bought a ladder bar kit years ago specifically made for my little Ford Ranger. The kit front attaches where the leaf spring mounts. So they are real short. 25-1/2 inches. Now the bracket that welds to the diff has equal mounting holes from the center line of the axle, top and bottom. All the ones I look at the bottom mounting hole is a lot lower than the top hole from center. Will that take some of the hit out with the ladder bars being so short or don’t you think they will work properly. Just not sure if the company didn’t slap a kit together just to sell. Any help would be appreciated.
t mcmunn thanks so much for your comments and questions! Go to my website at samsonperformance.com and shoot me an email. Take a look at the services section of the website. I will do everything I can to help you. Include pics of your concerns and anything else you have pictures of on this setup. Glad to hear you have time to focus on this now and sounds like a pretty cool Ford Ranger!!! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Thanks Kevin. I’ll do that service when I get a few thinks together. I think it would b hard to do on a bare frame. But I’ll send you a couple pics of what I have so far
@@tmcmunn313 shoot me some pics before you get started regardless of any services you purchase. I would rather see what you have now before you start fabricating. Easier to adjust now vs later for sure. We can talk about remote services when you get closer on tuning the setup, but happy to help now before too late.
Teria algum vídeo com legenda
Kevin, having an issue on my 56 Bel Air ladder bar car. When I get hard on the throttle, the rear of the car starts swaying like a girl with a huge ass. Car was already tubbed and suspension was there when I purchsed it. 32" bars, and It has a panhard rod, not a track locator. It is primarily a street car. Wondering where I should start troubleshooting this issue.
I would start with a diagonal link bar locator... a panhard bar can work, but checkout this video of mine: ua-cam.com/video/VVn0B1qs6tg/v-deo.html
Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
how about starting off by what ladder bars do and then what there used for and then go into the links and mounts
My entire channel is dedicated to drag racing suspension tuning. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
So the way I see it a 4 link is just a ladder bar with a virtual pivot point which lets you make the same adjustments as a ladder bar but with the added benefit of virtually making your links longer or shorter.
Alan Phillips thanks so much for your comments! I agree. The 4 link has so many more options, but often times these options get racers in trouble. I prefer 4 link, but ladder bars properly positioned for the specific car's chassis absolutely work! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
So going up will give u more weight transfer and pick the front end up higher?
Casy Jenkins thanks so much for your question! It depends on how and where the brackets are mounted, but in general, on a ladder bar, going up in the front will add more bite and more weight transfer as it picks the front up more. It will have a greater percentage of rise in relation to the center of gravity. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Will moving the ladder bar front mount up change how hard I hit the wheelie bars??
That depends on many factors, but in general theory it should not hit them harder. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
What would you recommend for stock style suspension? 4 link or ladder bars
Dre Davis thanks so much for your comments! Loaded question... ladder bars are easier to get into and do work. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
If I were to use a car for no-prep/street, so the surface always changes, which would be better for quick changes in situations where you might only get one test pass
Mash them tires. Move the forward point up. Give it some pinion angle based on what the body and suspension do on the hit. BTW, I don't know s..t it's just what he said and what makes sense to me. Good luck.
For a leaf spring ladder bar car, is 2.0 degrees down on pinion a good spot for drag racing?
Say trans at 2 degree down, then the diff would be 4 degree down to start then rise to 2 down to offset the trans?
With the engine/trans down toward the rear 2 degrees, then starting with the pinion down toward the front of the car 1.5 - 2 degrees is a good starting point for drag racing. Consider subscribing to the channel to stay updated with suspension videos! Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Can you have to much angle with ladder bar & radial? What will happen?
Dan Steffens thanks so much for your question! Each car is somewhat unique, but if you have a ladder bar angle that is crushing the sidewall of the Radial too much, then you have to take some angle out, effectively changing the Instant Center and removing some anti squat. It is about keeping a balance of the suspension components doing their job. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!
When making a change on the front of the ladder bar. Do you change both sides the same holes or do you change one side only?
Tommy Waters thanks so much for your question! We always strive to change both sides the same amount on bar locations. It is our opinion, if we or anyone is tempted to stagger those locations, we should really try to understand what is going on in other places. Here again, we are trying to balance out the hit on the chassis and rear end as evenly as possible to keep these cars under the most control while pushing the envelope. I have absolutely staggered shock settings, spring rates, wheelie bar heights, but we try to keep the push points on the chassis the same for both ladder bars. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!
@@KevinWilsonSBC Thank You Kevin
so if u move the front of the ladder bar up or down u should i readjust pinion thanks
verbs leonardo thanks so much for your comments! Absolutely, re-adjust the pinion angle if you move the front mount point up or down. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Would you consider doing a video on torque arm suspension? For us camaro guys out there.
Chris Lynn thanks so much for your comments! Yes, I have on on the list, just been so crazy busy lately and it is about 200 degrees on my back porch. LOL!!! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!
@@KevinWilsonSBC thankyou sir! I totally understand the heat, look forward to that presentation!
Torque arm setup please
ua-cam.com/video/gF69zjDos10/v-deo.html
Would 28” bars be too short for a Fox body Fairmont? Sure would be easier if those would work. Thanks
There are a bunch of factors in play with each car on wheelbase, weight placement, weight bias front to rear.... We generally see ladder bars in the 28" - 32" range. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
WB is 105. Track car only, completely gutted, running a 5.4 mod motor thanks . @@KevinWilsonSBC
flats wot do you mean when you say that 1 full turn or ??? By the Way Great Video
george zac thanks so much for your comments and question! When we talk about flats, that is referencing 1 flat of the 6 flats of the hex nut usually welded to the 4 link bar. Many, but not all, 4 link bars have a hex head nut welded to them so you can use a wrench to turn the bar and 1 flat turn is literally turning that hex head nut 1 flat of a turn. Just that little of turn moves weight quick. If no hex head nut on the bars, I would use a pair of channel locks and not go more than 1/4" of turn at a time. Does that help? Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Do you have a way I can message you. I’m changing my Nova from a 9.3 Olds rear end to a 9” Ford I’d like to get your opinion about welding my brackets on my rear housing
My email is samsalignmentsc@gmail.com but without some extensive info and time understanding your car and use case, I usually avoid fabrication stuff. You can checkout www.samsonperformance.com/store/p1/RemoteSuspensionTuning.html to see if that service looks valuable to you.
If you change the front mounting point up or down, do you need to re adjust the pinion angle?
Sparky Rocker thanks so much for your question! Yes, if you change front mount, you need to reset pinion angle. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
I was thinking about the same thing, thanks Kevin.
700 hp n/a big block dodge dart, I've got a Dana 60 with 4.88 gears, ya think ladder bars will do well ?
Korie Creson thanks so much for your comments! Ladder bars will handle that all day long. Checkout this video of a ladder bar car n/a with over a 1,000 HP ua-cam.com/video/LCyGWc9awXw/v-deo.html Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
Korie Creson thanks so much for your info and question. Sorry I missed this one. Absolutely ladder bars will work! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!
I thought most adjustable ladder bars have the adjustable union on the bottom bar?
Like to see a Caltrac video
Leroy Tapia thanks so much for your comments! Next week or sooner. Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!
Why when I raise the back of the car be the shock mounts the leaves better with less tire spin ,lower it back down it will blow the tires off
There are so many factors involved before I could answer that... in short, when you lift the chassis, the pickup point on the ladder bar chassis mount is rising along with other angles attached to the frame/chassis. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!!
How would you setup a 626hp t bucket for street
Owning my own T Bucket with a built SBC 383 and driving it for the past 30 years and various other streetrods, I would definitely be setting it up to pull the suspension a tad down, but very close to neutral. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
@Kevin Wilson I would like mine to sit very low but with 42" ladder bars I'm running into issues can the axle centerline be above both rear mounting bolts?
tks
luiz Chemiski absolutely! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!
Whats the best way to 60ft ladder bar
kenneth mack thanks for commenting. Go to samsonperformance.com and shoot me an email and I will respond. Go fast, go straight!
Must reset pinion angle each time relocating front hole
Unless pivoting bottom rear bolt and relocating top rear bolt to new hole , hummm ?😊
Any changes to the rear bars, it is always safer to confirm if the working angle changed on the pinion side. Go fast, go straight! Be SAFE!
Sir Wilson . I build drag race car for well over 40 years ..I had build a toyota Corolla with a 2zr Tacoma engine 12 point for the rules ladderbars "Super Toyota" this car is holding the record for ladderbars of 1.10 in 60ft n the world till today and a quartermile slip of 7.76 eich is not the record
Sadly drag racing is no longer a everyday man's game anymore. just like everything else the techs ruin it.
Gen Watie thanks so much for your comments! Go fast, go straight! Be Safe!!