I'm a big gear head and I'm never too proud of learning something new. This will keep Visual perspective and keep from making the age old mistakes and having to redo the project over and over....looking forward to seeing some front control arm videos. Making your own and center points ,travel etc...
More people need to know about this. I lifted a 4Runner and it rode like crap. The rear end would sway over every bump. It was unexpected for me, as nobodt talks about this in 4runner forums. I had looked at the situation and realized that the panhard angle was the issue. I eventually found a guy that was manufacturing bracket extensions that weld on to the axle side mount and level the panhard. The truck rides so nicely now. I cant believe anybody is happy with how their lifted trucks drive when the have excessive panhard angle at ride height.
Again, my friends, don't forget the height of the roll center. In the case of the panhard bar, the roll center moves up and down. The roll center is located at the intersection of the panhard bar with the vertical CL of the chassis as viewed from the rear or front. Its height is where that bar crosses that vertical line. So, mounting it as far below the axle as you can on a race car is generally, if not universally, beneficial. Interestingly, because of the panhard bar is changing height at the centerline as the chassis rolls and bumps/droops, and it's attached to the chassis only on one end it has roll centers of different heights in each cornering direction. So, a car is likely to perform better in one direction that the other. The better performing cornering direction is dependent on and is opposite the side of the chassis that end is mounted to, and thus which end will be lower in which cornering direction. If the end is mounted on the chassis' left side, the car will corner better in right-hand corners in which the car rolls left, lowering that side, giving it a lower roll center. Again, see Paul Van Vaulkenburgh's "Race Car Engineering & Mechanics".
Whoa! This was awesome. Love the illustrations and facts. I also believe mine is setup like the “longest bar” example, which could be contributing to my 4x4s tendency to wander on the road.
Coming in late on this, a combination of Panhard rod, short wheelbase and grippy tyres with a stiff sidewall can be rather interesting on an undulating road, the Ford Fiesta XR2 Mk2 being an example that sticks in my mind.
This video is missing a critical fault of panhard bars, particularly on softly sprung long travel setups...if baselined with both mounting points at the same hight, they have a toggle effect when turning the vehicle in the opposite direction of the side that the frame mount is located, and the force could be large enough to flip the vehicle. This is why there is a reason to have the frame side mount higher than the axle side mount.
Same... Scx10 ii with after market axles. Using the supplied panhard bar and the stock one, both give some evil lateral movement. Trying to understand it all a bit better! Thanks for the video, OP
Great video! I was hoping you were going to show roll centre, specifically how it changes from LHS to RHS when the pivot points are not parallel to the axle.
Couple questions: 1. Should it be installed with the bar level at ride height and with the mounting point equal distance from the ground? 2. If the bar is level at ride height should it be adjusted to center the wheels at ride height as well? I assume for a daily driver on air bags it would be best to have the bar half travel (level) at ride height and adjusted to center the wheels for alignment purposes.
Only video I’ve watched to the end that didn’t have narration. Absolutely true!🤜🏼🤛🏼🇦🇺😎🍀 I installed a panhard kit in my Mk- 1 3scort. Watching this... I fricken-well did it perfect. I went longest rod and put weights in the boot(100kg200lb+) Had it at half travel and flat, then located the bracket on the diff for welding. I did a trampbar set up at the same time. Tacked the brackets for that on the diff at the same time. Half travel... has to be best for bush wear? Is that right?
I still like leaf spring suspension because it's a simple design and the spring does 3 things 1. Locate the axle to prevent side to side movement 2. Carrie's the vehicle weight 3. Keeps the axle from moving back and forth
Ah, but that is just the point! The leaf spring doesn't do 1 and 3 very well, hence panhard rod or (preferably) watts linkage for lateral control, and trailing arms or (preferably) 4-link arms for for-aft location. The spring can then be optimised to be, well, just springs.
Nice animation. It looks like this concept might be where Ford got it's inspiration for the "twin I-beam" suspension for it's pick-up trucks in the 1960's.
My small hatchback has this one. My question is what is the purpose? All I see is sideways movement. Does it mean it's not beneficial for stability or what?
On trucks and older cars it Keep your Tires centered lol but most cars from the last couple of decades won't have one so you probably didn't need to learn it honestly lol
So, this then begs the question, what is the correct way to set up when you have a 4x4 font axle and the frame link are 4-6 inches or more (maybe 10) above the axle link?
Thanks guys. Informative and easy to follow as usual. I have been away from social media for a while though so... I'm wondering if you have your book released yet.
I wanna put my bar on the forward side of my diff but obviously I'll need to put double 45 bends in it so it doesn't come down on the yolk.. is that a thing
Excellent description congrats, I was trying to understand death wooble on my jeep cherokee laredo XG car, and find this video, maybe there`s more regarding my problem but this enlyght me , thanks
My car is the longest bar,I have an issue about the fitment of my car,the fitment of the car is different on each side ,the left is just right to the fender and the right is way inside to the fender,my car only have solid axle setup on the back,I wonder if the problem is about the angle or about the length of the trackbar that caused the uneven fitment on each side.thank youu
I don't understand why they want you to set it up with your axle offset from the middle at ride height. Yes I know the car doesn't always stay at ride height. Using this, the axle stays off center and moves the same direction regardless of compression or droop. If you set up slightly unparallel to the ground, you could center the axle and have it move slightly left when traveling up and slightly right when drooping. Would that at least keep the axle from having to change directions when going from full comp to full droop?
How do you apply this to the front of a 4x4 axle with an unequal length draglink? In my case the factory draglink is much longer than the factory track bar. If my draglink angle/length is fixed how do I want to setup the panhard to minimize bumpsteer.....which is really bad right now.
If you have panhard rods front and back do they need to be mounted on the same frame side front to back so that the axles move in the same arc or does it not matter if they cross so long as the geometry is correct?
Coloca um rolamento na tampa do diferencial; Corta a barra ao meio; Solda parafusos para fixar a barra no rolamento; Fixe a barra no rolamento. O sobe e desce da suspensão não terá efeito lateral, pois o rolamento absorve este efeito. Entenderam? Engenheiro da NASCAR me ensinou em 1990...
I think you guys missed a couple important points depending on what your end goal is. One that sticks out to me is how high or low it is mounted and how it effects the cg.
That is an advanced tuning tool that doesn't need to be addressed on most daily driven vehicles. Also, this account is geared specifically towards the custom air suspension industry, where chassis tuning is almost non-existent. We just want to show the basics principals of suspension design to help people stay out of trouble. However, I'm sure that we will address roll-centers in a future video.
Rarely the axle moves up and down evenly on both ends, the wheels move independently, one up and one down, so axle is fine if panhard is located evenly on level ground. 4runner never goes below axle on both ends. Cool vid.
That panhard has the roll centre somewhere near the moon. Normally for a passenger car start at the centre of the diff tubes. And then go down maybe 2" max. A Panhard will cause the car to try and jack on the chasiss mount side. Shorter the worse it is. And yes the chassis bracket has to be level at standard ride height. This practical real life advice. A Watts in theory is better but often in practice not. This includes OEM set ups that bind on roll. Ok for a street car with gooey rubber bushes but bad with a heim joint, or even a minimal movement rubber bush,
What practical method would you recommend for finding total suspension travel ? It seems to me that rti ramp would be best. Run it up one side to max compression. Measure centre axle to wheel arch. This provides min arc length. Then reverse off and run other wheel up rti. Measure original wheel now at full droop. I can't think of any other reliable practical method. Please enlighten us? However, with live axle the numbers would be different if you tried to fully compress or droop an axle uniformly both sides. The measured travel could well be less in that case...?
However, the measured suspension travel would likely be less if you could compress/droop both sides of axle in unison as shown in your diagrams. I see how you could measure full symmetrical droop but not compression. A video to describe practical method to measure suspension travel for equation would be very helpful.
It sounds like you are working on a leaf spring vehicle, which is not what my channel is geared towards. These videos and their theories are for the lowered, air suspension industry.
i feel really dumb someone help me out please ...why does a vehicle need anything except an arm and shock setup or just anything except lateral movement ? what does a 3 or 4 link setup actually do other than add weight ?
Ram used this design on the rear of the half ton trucks and it sucks when pulling a trailer. The extra load of a trailer tends to squat the suspension thus putting it at or near that lateral movement. When you hit a bump at highway speed it causes the rear of the truck to move sideways just a little therefore amplifying the movement at the trailer hitch causing the trailer to whip around at highway speed. NOT SAFE!
long story short my Mustang is higher on the passenger rear side can the adjustable panhard bar fix the problem? if anyone can help out I appreciate it
An adjustable panhard bar will only lengthen or shorten the bar so that you can center the axle at a specific height. It will not correct the geometry.
Holy sh*t, the panhard arm on my 4wd is nearly at 45 degrees, no wonder bumps on the highway are nightmares, now, as for making a custom one, would a bent bar ie; straight but bent at one end work better in my case?, the testing begins, lol, Cheers.
Take 2 long panhard rod, put it in parallel top and bottom and center of the pin between 2 end of rod then you will have very little "sagitta" for long travel,.
I'm a big gear head and I'm never too proud of learning something new. This will keep Visual perspective and keep from making the age old mistakes and having to redo the project over and over....looking forward to seeing some front control arm videos. Making your own and center points ,travel etc...
Was looking for a clear, simple description of what a pan hard bar did.... this video did that! Thanks!
The video is "How to set up" which is does not explain properly.
More people need to know about this. I lifted a 4Runner and it rode like crap. The rear end would sway over every bump. It was unexpected for me, as nobodt talks about this in 4runner forums.
I had looked at the situation and realized that the panhard angle was the issue. I eventually found a guy that was manufacturing bracket extensions that weld on to the axle side mount and level the panhard. The truck rides so nicely now. I cant believe anybody is happy with how their lifted trucks drive when the have excessive panhard angle at ride height.
First Last nice!
Again, my friends, don't forget the height of the roll center. In the case of the panhard bar, the roll center moves up and down. The roll center is located at the intersection of the panhard bar with the vertical CL of the chassis as viewed from the rear or front. Its height is where that bar crosses that vertical line. So, mounting it as far below the axle as you can on a race car is generally, if not universally, beneficial.
Interestingly, because of the panhard bar is changing height at the centerline as the chassis rolls and bumps/droops, and it's attached to the chassis only on one end it has roll centers of different heights in each cornering direction. So, a car is likely to perform better in one direction that the other. The better performing cornering direction is dependent on and is opposite the side of the chassis that end is mounted to, and thus which end will be lower in which cornering direction. If the end is mounted on the chassis' left side, the car will corner better in right-hand corners in which the car rolls left, lowering that side, giving it a lower roll center.
Again, see Paul Van Vaulkenburgh's "Race Car Engineering & Mechanics".
Thanks for highlighting my comment. Much appreciated.
This is a particularly good vid.
I cannot think of a clearer description of the relevant issues when setting up a panhard bar.
Whoa! This was awesome. Love the illustrations and facts. I also believe mine is setup like the “longest bar” example, which could be contributing to my 4x4s tendency to wander on the road.
The best content and knowledge for suspension design. Get the book. You'll never regret it and learn a ton from it. I did!
This video is amazing. I wanted a visual explanation of the panhard correction kit I’m putting on and this is perfect. Well done guys!
Thanks for this. Your animations quickly explained why our coil springs rub at certain points in our suspension's travel.
Coming in late on this, a combination of Panhard rod, short wheelbase and grippy tyres with a stiff sidewall can be rather interesting on an undulating road, the Ford Fiesta XR2 Mk2 being an example that sticks in my mind.
This video is missing a critical fault of panhard bars, particularly on softly sprung long travel setups...if baselined with both mounting points at the same hight, they have a toggle effect when turning the vehicle in the opposite direction of the side that the frame mount is located, and the force could be large enough to flip the vehicle.
This is why there is a reason to have the frame side mount higher than the axle side mount.
This video was extremely helpful. I am currently building an rc crawler i am struggling to keep the lateral axle movement down and this was awesome
Same... Scx10 ii with after market axles. Using the supplied panhard bar and the stock one, both give some evil lateral movement. Trying to understand it all a bit better!
Thanks for the video, OP
So educational but yet calming.
Larry
This was very helpful for me as I figure out tire size and fender clearance. Great video !
Great video!
I was hoping you were going to show roll centre, specifically how it changes from LHS to RHS when the pivot points are not parallel to the axle.
Couple questions:
1. Should it be installed with the bar level at ride height and with the mounting point equal distance from the ground?
2. If the bar is level at ride height should it be adjusted to center the wheels at ride height as well?
I assume for a daily driver on air bags it would be best to have the bar half travel (level) at ride height and adjusted to center the wheels for alignment purposes.
Just found the answer to question 1 in your Half Travel vs. Ride Height video here:
ua-cam.com/video/4yJin88G5Qg/v-deo.html
Amazing video, cleared up a lot of my questions. Thanks Pedantic!
Only video I’ve watched to the end that didn’t have narration.
Absolutely true!🤜🏼🤛🏼🇦🇺😎🍀
I installed a panhard kit in my Mk- 1 3scort.
Watching this... I fricken-well did it perfect.
I went longest rod and put weights in the boot(100kg200lb+) Had it at half travel and flat, then located the bracket on the diff for welding.
I did a trampbar set up at the same time. Tacked the brackets for that on the diff at the same time.
Half travel... has to be best for bush wear? Is that right?
Thank you. This is exactly what I’ve been trying to find. Two thumbs up. 👍🏽👍🏽
I still like leaf spring suspension because it's a simple design and the spring does 3 things
1. Locate the axle to prevent side to side movement
2. Carrie's the vehicle weight
3. Keeps the axle from moving back and forth
Ah, but that is just the point! The leaf spring doesn't do 1 and 3 very well, hence panhard rod or (preferably) watts linkage for lateral control, and trailing arms or (preferably) 4-link arms for for-aft location. The spring can then be optimised to be, well, just springs.
Took to long for your channel to come across my recommended videos. Great content keep it coming!
Nice animation. It looks like this concept might be where Ford got it's inspiration for the "twin I-beam" suspension for it's pick-up trucks in the 1960's.
Nah, twin i-beam looks just like oversize control arms to me :D (providing extended travel)
Brilliant explanation. Very concise. Very helpful. Thank you very much.
Wow, I learned a lot upon watching this video. Thanks a lot!
Simple and helpful. Thank you 🤘
Thanks so much for the video. A lot easier to understand the way you illustrated it.
My small hatchback has this one. My question is what is the purpose? All I see is sideways movement. Does it mean it's not beneficial for stability or what?
Great stuff! Awesome illustrations! Now I need to go out to the garage and check my stuff, lol
I dont know what a Panhard Bar is but im high enough to learn lmao
On trucks and older cars it Keep your Tires centered lol but most cars from the last couple of decades won't have one so you probably didn't need to learn it honestly lol
@@bradlfsh lol right?
This helped with my Lego project. Thanks!
Thank you for the video. It helped me resolve an issue I was having
What are the best examples of a rear Panhard rod equipped front-engine rear-wheel drive saloon?
So, this then begs the question, what is the correct way to set up when you have a 4x4 font axle and the frame link are 4-6 inches or more (maybe 10) above the axle link?
Thanks guys. Informative and easy to follow as usual. I have been away from social media for a while though so... I'm wondering if you have your book released yet.
Thank you for the video very informative and straightforward.quick question .half travel is not at ride height?
I wanna put my bar on the forward side of my diff but obviously I'll need to put double 45 bends in it so it doesn't come down on the yolk.. is that a thing
Any release date for the book? I’ve been anxiously waiting for like a year or two haha. Keep up the great work!
Simple, clear and to the point. Well done!
Hello, probably a stupid question...but when do you adjust the sagitta offset,... when the car is sitting normally on the ground?
Thanks
Excellent description congrats, I was trying to understand death wooble on my jeep cherokee laredo XG car, and find this video, maybe there`s more regarding my problem but this enlyght me , thanks
Almost surely worn components see www.extremeterrain.com/wrangler-jeep-death-wobble.html
Very helpful video! But who is playing the soundtrack ?????
My car is the longest bar,I have an issue about the fitment of my car,the fitment of the car is different on each side ,the left is just right to the fender and the right is way inside to the fender,my car only have solid axle setup on the back,I wonder if the problem is about the angle or about the length of the trackbar that caused the uneven fitment on each side.thank youu
I don't understand why they want you to set it up with your axle offset from the middle at ride height. Yes I know the car doesn't always stay at ride height. Using this, the axle stays off center and moves the same direction regardless of compression or droop. If you set up slightly unparallel to the ground, you could center the axle and have it move slightly left when traveling up and slightly right when drooping. Would that at least keep the axle from having to change directions when going from full comp to full droop?
Can someone tell me . What is the work of this Rod in easy explaination
How do you apply this to the front of a 4x4 axle with an unequal length draglink? In my case the factory draglink is much longer than the factory track bar. If my draglink angle/length is fixed how do I want to setup the panhard to minimize bumpsteer.....which is really bad right now.
If you have panhard rods front and back do they need to be mounted on the same frame side front to back so that the axles move in the same arc or does it not matter if they cross so long as the geometry is correct?
Coloca um rolamento na tampa do diferencial;
Corta a barra ao meio;
Solda parafusos para fixar a barra no rolamento;
Fixe a barra no rolamento.
O sobe e desce da suspensão não terá efeito lateral, pois o rolamento absorve este efeito.
Entenderam?
Engenheiro da NASCAR me ensinou em 1990...
My Opel Kadett had one. Neat, simple, effective.
I just watched your video on watts link setup. It seems a panhard link is a contradiction in terms for controlling lateral movement. Please explain.
I think you guys missed a couple important points depending on what your end goal is. One that sticks out to me is how high or low it is mounted and how it effects the cg.
That is an advanced tuning tool that doesn't need to be addressed on most daily driven vehicles. Also, this account is geared specifically towards the custom air suspension industry, where chassis tuning is almost non-existent. We just want to show the basics principals of suspension design to help people stay out of trouble. However, I'm sure that we will address roll-centers in a future video.
Rarely the axle moves up and down evenly on both ends, the wheels move independently, one up and one down, so axle is fine if panhard is located evenly on level ground. 4runner never goes below axle on both ends. Cool vid.
Hi all,is full droop and full bump measured with the panhad attached ?
Excellent video, very informative. 👍🏻
Very nice video with explanation.👍
Gue buenos videos me enceñan mucho desde cuba te seguimos ❤
That's a great clear video, thanks.
so where does the movement side to side happen flex in suspension bushings? if it was solidly mounted I think it would bind.
Probaby tire side wall or scrub.
Please,
we need more videos
Nice music, what's its name? Shazam gives me a different result on every scan.
Good job on the content , the writing was really tough to read quickly on my cell phone . Maybe simple writing next time?
Pan hard bar correction kits are the key
very very well done. Awesome, so incredibly informative.
That panhard has the roll centre somewhere near the moon. Normally for a passenger car start at the centre of the diff tubes. And then go down maybe 2" max.
A Panhard will cause the car to try and jack on the chasiss mount side. Shorter the worse it is.
And yes the chassis bracket has to be level at standard ride height.
This practical real life advice.
A Watts in theory is better but often in practice not. This includes OEM set ups that bind on roll. Ok for a street car with gooey rubber bushes but bad with a heim joint, or even a minimal movement rubber bush,
What practical method would you recommend for finding total suspension travel ? It seems to me that rti ramp would be best. Run it up one side to max compression. Measure centre axle to wheel arch. This provides min arc length. Then reverse off and run other wheel up rti. Measure original wheel now at full droop. I can't think of any other reliable practical method. Please enlighten us? However, with live axle the numbers would be different if you tried to fully compress or droop an axle uniformly both sides. The measured travel could well be less in that case...?
However, the measured suspension travel would likely be less if you could compress/droop both sides of axle in unison as shown in your diagrams. I see how you could measure full symmetrical droop but not compression. A video to describe practical method to measure suspension travel for equation would be very helpful.
It sounds like you are working on a leaf spring vehicle, which is not what my channel is geared towards. These videos and their theories are for the lowered, air suspension industry.
@@pedanticpublishing8881 My vehicle is a live axle coil sprung LR defender. Slightly lifted.
@@pwatom22 That makes it easier. You should be able to pull the coils, but leave the shocks installed, and cycle the suspension.
i feel really dumb someone help me out please ...why does a vehicle need anything except an arm and shock setup or just anything except lateral movement ? what does a 3 or 4 link setup actually do other than add weight ?
What do you mean by "arm and shock" setup?
Hệ thống treo phụ thuộc của Ford đã khắc phục được nhược điểm này, bạn có thể tham khảo ở xe Ford Everrest hoặc Ford Raptor.
Ram used this design on the rear of the half ton trucks and it sucks when pulling a trailer. The extra load of a trailer tends to squat the suspension thus putting it at or near that lateral movement. When you hit a bump at highway speed it causes the rear of the truck to move sideways just a little therefore amplifying the movement at the trailer hitch causing the trailer to whip around at highway speed. NOT SAFE!
You forgot to mention that raising or lowering the Panhard Rod moves the roll centre of the suspension up or down
Muy Buena la explicación MIL GRACIAS
Ford's dependent suspension has overcome this disadvantage, you can refer to a Ford Everrest or Ford Raptor.
An excellent vid, thank you!
Watts Link are still a thing?
Can a panhard bar be setup behind the axle connected to the frame rails?
tbh if you dont mind the increase of wheigh you should go for a watts link
I don't see why not? In front of the axle, behind the axle, or on top of the axle - the same basic rules still apply.
Awesome video! Thank you
I'm assuming there's a good reason but why do they not just use wishbones like back on the 1958 Impala
How do u set it up on a air suspension vehicle???
Amazing content! Thank you!
Do what they said to a 4wd, tell me how well it worked xD
How do I contact you with a question about the panhard bar? I am not using air bags..but need to know some info. Thanks
Did you ever get your question answered?
That was super helpful thanks!
Again keep up the great work!
WOW! This is amazing
This great!! Thank you for sharing!!
long story short my Mustang is higher on the passenger rear side can the adjustable panhard bar fix the problem? if anyone can help out I appreciate it
An adjustable panhard bar will only lengthen or shorten the bar so that you can center the axle at a specific height. It will not correct the geometry.
THANKS FOR THE
SMART STUFF...
Классный канал, жалко я английский не знаю, но автор ты молодец
What an awesome video
wonderful but steering box and link are 16 inches above tie rod already over slung on old dana 44
Haha! Front 4wd axles follow a different ruleset because of the steering.
Any further info on 4wd solid axle panhard setup? Thanks and excellent job on the video.
Holy sh*t, the panhard arm on my 4wd is nearly at 45 degrees, no wonder bumps on the highway are nightmares, now, as for making a custom one, would a bent bar ie; straight but bent at one end work better in my case?, the testing begins, lol, Cheers.
Eco Hitman let us know, brother
Amazing video!!
Why not make it with 2 like tfs does?
WOW....awesome vid
Take 2 long panhard rod, put it in parallel top and bottom and center of the pin between 2 end of rod then you will have very little "sagitta" for long travel,.
Very Good Like subscribed 🎉🎉🎉🎉
Это понятно то что смещение есть! А решение то какое?
great vid
That's what I love about automotive engineering ... it's not rocket science.
That music!
One of the most uncomfortable set ups i have ever experienced. Throws you about in the car going over rough roads.
Was pan hard when I woke this morning.
👍
Dawit