TOO MANY...Flair was a legend...as was Bret...why can't they all just get along and respect and admire each others craft without comparing all the time....it's a work after all.
True and that's the biggest irony of all. The MSJ actually jump-started the Attitude Era because it introduced the "Mr. McMahon" character and that Austin-McMahon rivalry is what made the whole thing work. It's the greatest storyline rivalry in the history of wrestling in my opinion.
@Mase379 actually, it was Hennig that helped make Hart at Summer Slam. That match is what gave him the most credibilty as a singles wrestler at that point. Still regarded as one of the greatest matches of all time.
@Mase379 The Austin 3:16 thing at KOTR got Austin on his way, but his program with Hart is what really gave him credibility at the main event level. Austin himself has admitted as much. Next to Vince, it was the greatest rivalry he ever had.
Right but like I said the Mr. McMahon character came from his transactions with Bret in '97 and it was that character that jump-started the whole attitude era. Austin got as big as he did because of his feud with Mr. McMahon. it was something everybody could relate too. Who hasn't wanted to punch out their boss? That's what made it so huge and Bret was the catalyst to that.
Well to Bret it wasn't just about the money. He grew up in this business. You gotta remember back in 1996, a whole year before the MSJ, Vince told him he should go to WCW then when they were doing contract negotiations and Bret chose to stay loyal. If it was truly about the money he would have left then and I don't know if you know this but originally he was going to be the 3rd member of the nWo, not Hogan. Bischoff has confirmed this.
There are many facets to being a great wrestler. One is acting, another is promos, another is can you make the match believeable. Flair was also the ultimate showman. Even tho i grew up in rhode island where wwf was, i respected flair more than hogan because he was so much more charismatic and entertaining.
@txteabagger Flair was great but one match seems to be the only one anyone can reference to support his "mastery." Bret had so many top notch matches it was ridiculous.
@salmon020 When u think about it, wcw tried to relive the glory days that bret had in wwf, i mean they had him fight Curt Henning a couple of times to refuel that rivalry and they started him as the us champ and then the wcw champ in a matter of months, what it took bret years to do in wwf wcw tried to cram it down in a matter of months which did not come out right
Thanks for replying. I understand your point of view. At times Bret can come across as rather arrogant. It's not just about money I'm afraid. Vince had a vision...he knew where he was heading with the attitude era.....there was no place for Hitman in this era and I think Hitman didn't like being heel as he is so self-righteous. Granted Bret had leverage on Vince...he has a contract which gave him a lot of power and Vince was not happy with it. This may have played part in letting him go.
I've done a video about this subject and I discuss it in detail. But I have two points. 1) Bret was lucky enough to have a camera crew shooting a documentary during the whole thing. That sounds fishy. Also, Bret called HBK and HHH by their stage names. If it was all real, Bret would have called them by their real names. 2) Why would Bret allow his worst enemy to put Him in the sharpshooter, his own move? That's why it was all a work. Just like any other employee, Bret did what he was told to do.
Yea I've gone back and forth over the years on whether or not that was a work and part of me does feel like Bret has himself to blame. Apparently before the match Vader actually came up and to him and warned him about something like this happening because Vader saw screwjobs first hand in Japan. I guess he just figured Shawn would never go through with it despite their animosity. Bret was being extremely naive.
It depends, Bret was a top guy in the WWF he was making the most money of anyone in the company, if he were to resign it wouldn't be cheap, he was making money, but not enough money, you know what i mean? Hey the Hart Foundation was awesome, remember when they had pillman in there? I used to be a huge Foundation mark xD
That's not entirely fair, Bret was very over as a heel in the WWF, mainly with the Hart Foundation and to boot he was the best in ring worker on the roster at the time. It was just that he was making too much money, and with him at the latter end of his career and the WWF's financial struggles they deemed it better for him to leave. Bret however failed to do his obligation to drop the belt before leaving and Vince did what he had to do to protect his company.
Hehe. If you say so. I think its too easy to go right to hogan or flair though either. I think that whole company was just screwed up internally by the time bret got there. He didnt really fit to their storylines either. HE just didnt have a place in the whole nwo/wolfpack/wcw story. Once nwo phased out i think there was unlimited potential for a bret/sting, bret/flair, bret/goldberg, bret/benoit. The possibilities were endless. He ended up wrestling all of them but true feuds never materialized
@TNO73 Gee I dont know...I dont think Bret ever showed his full upper body, but Flair in his prime had nice set of abs and great biceps....which was influenced by steroids as Flair admitted in his autobiography (he said he used roids on and off to enhance his appearance)
Well Vince knew he had to back out of the contract he originally offered to Bret, that's why he suggested Bret to go to WCW. As far as a draw, HBK wasn't a good draw either in 1996. Bottom line is it didn't matter who Vince put in that spot that year, WCW was kicking their ass no matter what because of the nWo angle. WCW had plucked the cabinet dry of all the top WWF stars by then. The sad thing is HBK actually had some great matches during his first title run, but no one gave a crap.
and also keep in mind why would they have a camera in the back right after the even like in Wrestling with Shadows? It seems awfully convenient to shoot a documentary during the most controversial moment in pro wrestling. And furthermore, Bret called shawn and HHH by their stage names. If he was really pissed, he would call them by their real names. So the whole thing was a work. Bret did not get screwed. He ended up making 2x as much in WCW.
It's a shame that Bret doesn't run a wrestling company. It would be funny as hell to see Ric shamelessly taking back everything negative he's ever said about Bret and kissing his ass like hell in order to try and get a job for him.
i agree with most of the grading below between Flair and Brett except for a couple of things.1) Flair in his prime had just as good a body or even better. 2) Flair's mic skills are so far superior to Brett's that rating them on a scale like that doesn't really show how big a difference there really was. Brett had decent mic skills at best and Flair was one the greatest and considered THE best by many people.
True enough. And Vader was not the only person that warned Bret. But keep in mind that bret never really got screwed anyway. He left for WCW and made a ton of money. Sure it ruined his legacy and career, but if you look at it economically, Bret still didn't get screwed even though he whined about being screwed for years. And that is one of the main reasons why I don't like Bret--too much of a whiner. Who would whine about making 3 mil a yr? Only Bret would. Hard to like sum1 like that.
Looking at some comments on here. Flair did not make Bret. Flair's mic skills? I changed the channel everytime he was had a mic in his hand. Bret Hart didn't make any real money? Hog an leaving the WWE could of spelled doom for them, but Bret carried the WWE through that tough time. Flair's best matches all came before the 90s. The fact he still is wrestling just shows how unfair the world is.
Bret Hart's gimmick was not about being cocky or cutting a good promo. It was about being the best wrestler. That's why fans liked him because fans liked Bret's humility. Just because you scream like a maniac in a promo doesn't mean its a good promo e.g Hogan, Warrior,... I do however think most of Flair promos were excellent and some of them were very funny. They are both very different wrestlers. Bret was mainly about technique to entertain fans, Flair was mainly about charisma.
Actually according to Bret, Flair has badmouthed Savage and Foley. He said Flair would criticize Savage on the way he'd have to map out every part of a match. This is actually well documented that Savage was like this, where as a guy like Flair called all his spots on the fly. I guess its more of a constructive criticism. Flair called Foley a "glorified stuntman" in his book, that's why they had issues.
I wonder where all the annimosity started with these two. Their complaint about each other is that they don't vary their matches much. Flair does the same moves every match & so does Bret. I find that pretty much every wrestler does that. Still I like them both, but overall I think Bret is better. Body Flair C Bret B Mic skills Flair A+ Bret C Ability Flair A Bret A+ Technique Flair B Bret A+ Athleticism Flair B Bret A Endurance Flair A+ Bret B+ In ring Storytelling Flair A +Bret A+
Well, I heard that Sting was also supposed to be the 3rd member of the NWO. Keep in mind the fact that Vince wanted bret to leave and go to WCW in 96 shows that Bret was not a big enough draw for Vince. You always try to keep your biggest stars--not get rid of them. That's why I think Flair was right about all the things he said about hart.
It's really hard to say it was a work. There's been interviews by countless wrassler's, Foley, Taker', Austin, etc and to say that Vince had everyone on board with this "work" seems to far fetched. Here in Canada there is a show on TSN called Off the Record, where all of the people involved plus many others have been asked about it. Plus in Bret's book, as well a Foley's 2nd I believe, it's just to hard to believe it was staged as a work. Bret is way to honest to let it go for 12 yrs
I dont think Flair bad mouths him, I think he simple stands by what he said in his book instead of back peddling. He says Bret NEVER drew any REAL money... Who can disagree with that???
Agree, but I'm not talking interview skills here; that's totally irrelevant to the discussion. As far as "making someone look better," that's not that big a deal anymore. Most any truly great wrestler can do that.
Certainly. There really is no excuse for WCW doing nothing with Bret considering the massive controversy involving the screw job. Didn't Vince turn the controversy around in his favor by creating the ultimate heel and him playing the role? Once again, no excuses for WCW in this case.
Actually, no, Bret can blame Bischoff and the WCW bookers of the time. They stopped hyping Bret right as soon as he arrived, then they just put him on the backburner to make room for shit like Goldberg punching out a car window and almost losing his arm and Judith Bagwell on a pole, aswell as catering to Hulk "Politics" Hogan's ego. When all the "Big Boys" finally stopped playing and it looked like Bret would finally have his time, Golberg ends his career w/ a careless kick. Bret blame Bret?
No he didn't use the same set-up. Watch Flair's matches in the 1980's. Including the Steamboat matches. He actually did moves off the top rope instead of just getting slammed from it. His matches also had all kinds of unpredictable finishes. He knew how to piss the crowd off royally during the match with his personality, then make them cheer like hell to see him lose. Bret could never do that. He just didn't have Flair's charisma and his move-set made less sense as well.
I agree with you totally. From listening to each in interviews throughout the years, they take themselves waaaay too seriously. As much as they like to trash Kevin Nash, they need more of his attitude. You didn't really win anything. It's fake.
@DropkickLar I used to love Flair on the mic, but Nick Bockwinkle buries him with a simmilar cool style without resorting to screaming. Bret got better on the mic as time went by, but I disagree with your view of Flair being better. Both guys have patented moves the difference is that Bret's looked believable. His turnbuckle to the chest looks better than let's say the Flair flop. Or the flip in the corner or the top rope grab & toss. Bret is a better storyteller in the ring.
Except that Flair is known to have basically used the same setup time after time after time ala Cena. Flair was overall much better, no real comparison there, but that's simply the truth. It got to a point where you could predict everything he was going to do, and even in what order. Am I saying Flair didn't have great matches outside of 1? Of course not, but technically speaking Bret has him beat by a landslide in my observation.
@TheHappynot Flair had a longer run at the top, winning the NWA championship in 1981. Bret pretty much had a 10 year run as a top guy right up until the worst in ring worker of all time ended his career.
My opinion, who the heck cares who drew more money than who, whose the bigger star, whose the better wrestler, who has the biggest ego, whose backside smells better SHUT UP! HOGAN, FLAIR, HART, SHAWN, SAVAGE, TAKER etc. All these guys are legends but some of these guys need to stop drinking out of their own kool-aid, stop believing their b.s, get over the past and APPRECIATE and RESPECT each others legacy, live happily ever after and MOVE ON!!!
@MeThinks995 I think your dislike for Flair is making you give unfair criticism. I'm with you in that I don't like him. I think he's a two faced snake, and I think he's overrated. But the stuff he did up through WM 8 was great. The RR he won is often regarded as the greatest Rumble of all time. His feud with Savage was one of the best either had, and their match....when you take everything into account....was the best on the card. Piper & Hart was great, but there was no build up.
Yes, I am saying Bret had very very little charisma. There are pages full of youtube mixes of Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan cutting promos. Try searching up Bret. There's a single vid of one promo and that's it. Secondly, those Steamboat matches are widely considered the best matches ever. If you don't know them, you don't know shit about this topic. I can run down dozens of Bret's matches easily. You don't even know a single one of Flair's very best.
Umm dude, why do you care if Bret "can't get it up"...that sounds a little umm...well you know. Oh, and Stone Cold did whine, and then walked out of a Raw he was scheduled to be at like a little girl instead of just going to Vince "like a man" and telling him what his problems were. That's well documented.
I don't care what anyone says, Hogan and possibly Flair are the blame for Bret Harts less than stellar run in WCW. Bret was just involved in the most infamous wrestling event in WWF, yet WCW coudn't do anything with that?
Of course I know of them. I've seen them and I know they were great. I don't have them run down in my memory, but that doesn't matter. I'm not saying he never had great matches. But he was definitely one of those who overall (especially later in his career) was very repetitive and predictable. You almost never got that from Bret, even at the end of his career. Bret had ok charisma but he wasn't confident. We saw what he was capable of at the end of his career and it was actually pretty decent.
I just want ppl to know that if Bret was as good as he says he was, then why did Vince let him go? The only reason why Vince would let Bret go was b/c Bret was not worth the money. If Bret made money for Vince, Vince would have kept him. Thus, Bret was not that good.
You clearly didn't even search Flair vs. Steamboat, because there are dozens of those matches and 3 in 1989 alone, which blew everything else away as the 3 best matches of that year, including what's widely considered the greatest match of all-time. Watch everything Flair did in the WWF, watch his matches with Sting and Vader. Search up Flair vs. Road Warrior Hawk to see how he could get a great match that ends in a HUGE pop out of anyone. To even have to be explaining this is pathetic.
@mastermold2011 And I can't believe I actually liked this s.o.b. back in the day. Boy, talk about wasted time. He IS two-faced and, from what I've heard over the years, what has come out to the public is only a taste of how rotten he really is. I was glad when I started following Bret and other real wrestlers (Curt Hennig, Randy Savage, Sting).
Answer the question. Charisma also is key to working a match. Unless you think a match is just complex moves with absolutely no drama involved? It's obvious you know jack and shit.
you seem to be regurgitating someone else's words. Bret drew money just not enough to take the company to the next level...The N.W.O was too hot...enter Steve Austin...the savior of WWF...the leader of the Attitude Era....he had an iconic run..enter...The Rock....an icon too whose run will be carry on due to lack of injuries, a movie career which WWE loves to be associated with.
Well my overall opinion is that the whole Montreal Screwjob was a work. Bret was in on it as much as everyone else. Why else would he agree to be put in his own move by his most hated rival??? Seems fishy.....
@kriegpaolo I wouldn't say he had a GREAT body, but good yes. Comparing the two in their primes Bret's was the better of the two. Technique I might be aoff by a bit, but again I think Bret is better in that area.
@trocknickel The HELL Hart did!!! Jake the Snake made Austin, Austin 3:16, check your history pal. Truth be told Austin made himself and didnt need an extra push. And dont forget FLAIR MADE HART!
Flair has his same exact setups he uses & mannerisms and the begging & the low blow & top rope shit and what have you. Just like Hogan has the pumping up, the fist strike, the irish whip & big boot etc. Same for Cena & some other wrestlers. Not saying Flair was always exactly the same but for a large part he was. To suggest Hart was more predictable than Flair is just silly. As far as charisma, sure but that's ANOTHER thing u are bringing up really doesn't have anything do with this discussion.
I'm talking in general and it's true. Flair was about as repetitive and predictable as anyone and plenty of other wrestlers have said the same. And I don't get why you bring charisma into the equation as it has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.
@liquermike K, it's simple. WCW never gave Bret the chance, they screwed Bret by making him compete for the U.S title when he clearly wasn't even in that league. Bret just didn't fit in WCW because WCW absolutely fucking sucked when it came to scripting matches. Bret was controversy, WCW was piss poor.
I know jack shit because I don't think charisma is the only measurable facet to judge a wrestler by? & are u suggesting Bret had no charisma? Ha ha, ok. Are u trying to say Bret never had matches with drama involved? It seems ur dodging every point I'm making & trying to argue around them by bringing up other things & bolstering them with hyperbole. The question? I don't remember those exact finishes. So what? I'm making a general statement here. I'm not gonna quiz YOU on Bret's matches, lol.
Do you not know how utterly over Bret Hart was in the 90s when he was IC and World Champion? Vince discribed him as the guy you could build an entire company around! Do your research man! Vince gave him an out to goto WCW because he couldn't afford to match their offer. It had nothing to do with how much he was drawing. HBK and Diesel were the ones who dropped that particular ball. Seriously, before posting your own biased ignorance as opinion, do some research.
@liquerm Flair especially didnt draw any money in his 1st WWE run & only Drew a little bit in his second a s as sideshow act for vince "COME ONE COME ALL! GAZE & BE AMAZED BY THE WASHED UP FORMER 14 TIME WORLD HEAVY WEIGHT CHAMPION! MARVEL AS HE SELLS OIT TO VINCE & HANGS ON TO WHAT LITTLE STAR POWER HE HAS LEFT!
Vince tried to build his company around Bret, & it failed. Who would you rather have carrying your company? Austin? Rock? Foley? or Bret Hart? See, Bret just couldn't compete with those top guys. Vince realized that Bret wasn't worth the money and let Bret go to WCW. Would Vince ever let Austin go to WCW? Or let The Rock go to WCW? Hell no. Rock and Austin drew money, unlike Bret. Austin made more money for Vince in 1 month then Bret did his entire career. Bret was bland--no charisma.
@TNO73 Body Flair C Bret B Mic skills Flair A+ Bret B- (Bret was a great story teller as far as building a feud) Ability Flair B- (Same match every night) Bret A+ (Take chicken shit and make it into Chick salad) Technique Flair B Bret A+ Athleticism Flair B Bret A Endurance Flair (Flair would have to win this against anybody) A+ Bret B+ In ring Storytelling Flair A +Bret A+ Overall Bret's better Flair has not been on top of wrestling since 1993.
The guy had a stroke, how about a little sensitivity? As far as rooting for a guy, umm I could give a shit if another dude can get it up or not, I tend not to think about other guys in that way. Anyway, whether you think Stone Cold was right or not isn't the point. It was unprofessional what he did. People paid money to see him at a show that he was advertised to show up at and he went home. So IMO what he did is worse than Bret whining in interviews which ultimately doesn't effect anyone.
a Man doesn't whine. Bret whined all the time. So he was no man, and he can't even get it up anymore..so if that is your idea of a hero--someone that whines like a little girl and someone that can't even get it up...then fine...worship him all you want, but for the rest of us that can still pop wood men, we don't like whiners...did Stone Cold ever whine? hell no. Did Rock ever whine? hell no. See, real men don't whine. Losers whine.
Well, if you want to root for a man that can't even get it up anymore, then maybe that is how you want to be...but I don't...and Austin was right..I would not have jobbed to Lesnar either..and at that time Stone Cold didn't need Vince anymore...Bret ALWAYS needed Vince....
Flair is repetitive and predictable? Okay, what were the finishes of the Steamboat matches from '89? I'll ignore for now that you don't understand the role charisma plays in working a match because that's asinine.
What? Flair was great in MANY many matches wth are you talking about? While brett was a fantastic technical wrestler and perhaps the best of the 80s, he was a mediocre interview. Flair, by contrast ran the best promos ever. Flair also could make the best wrestler in an area look like they were better then him, he would always allow them to work him over good so all the fans got entertainment but hed win in end and fans would say dam, we almost had flair.
If Bret made money for Vince, Vince would have kept him. Bret was just a very boring guy. And as a man that lives in the USA, I thought the Hart Foundation sucked..I did like Owen though..and I thought the feud was dull....Bret just whined too much...whined so much, people stopped caring....
@JacksonXxXWaWa because he is a washed up old has been who still thinks hes the man,even back in his day he wasnt that good in the 80s flair had creative control and the few freinds he had were keeping the top spots for themselves,and keeping younger more talented guys down,funny how when he went to the big time company he flopped and got sent back to wcw with his tail between his legs after stealing the wcw title and taking it to wwf
Sure enough...;) People are going to have to realize that Bret was a whiner. And, in my opinion, he was just boring--even in the ring! His promos were boring. IMO Bret had no passion, he had no creativity, it was like watching a robot--he never gave me a reason to give a damn about him. And there is much more to a match than workrate. Thanks for your support.
Bret was very bland in the ring. He was dull on the mic. He had no charisma. He never made money for Vince. That is why Vince let him go. He could not draw a dime and he was never that big of a star.
TOO MANY...Flair was a legend...as was Bret...why can't they all just get along and respect and admire each others craft without comparing all the time....it's a work after all.
True and that's the biggest irony of all. The MSJ actually jump-started the Attitude Era because it introduced the "Mr. McMahon" character and that Austin-McMahon rivalry is what made the whole thing work. It's the greatest storyline rivalry in the history of wrestling in my opinion.
@Mase379 actually, it was Hennig that helped make Hart at Summer Slam. That match is what gave him the most credibilty as a singles wrestler at that point. Still regarded as one of the greatest matches of all time.
@Mase379 The Austin 3:16 thing at KOTR got Austin on his way, but his program with Hart is what really gave him credibility at the main event level. Austin himself has admitted as much. Next to Vince, it was the greatest rivalry he ever had.
Right but like I said the Mr. McMahon character came from his transactions with Bret in '97 and it was that character that jump-started the whole attitude era. Austin got as big as he did because of his feud with Mr. McMahon. it was something everybody could relate too. Who hasn't wanted to punch out their boss? That's what made it so huge and Bret was the catalyst to that.
@TNO73 You are underrating Flair's technique and body, Flair actually had a great body in the 80s
Well to Bret it wasn't just about the money. He grew up in this business. You gotta remember back in 1996, a whole year before the MSJ, Vince told him he should go to WCW then when they were doing contract negotiations and Bret chose to stay loyal. If it was truly about the money he would have left then and I don't know if you know this but originally he was going to be the 3rd member of the nWo, not Hogan. Bischoff has confirmed this.
There are many facets to being a great wrestler. One is acting, another is promos, another is can you make the match believeable. Flair was also the ultimate showman. Even tho i grew up in rhode island where wwf was, i respected flair more than hogan because he was so much more charismatic and entertaining.
@txteabagger
Flair was great but one match seems to be the only one anyone can reference to support his "mastery." Bret had so many top notch matches it was ridiculous.
@salmon020 When u think about it, wcw tried to relive the glory days that bret had in wwf, i mean they had him fight Curt Henning a couple of times to refuel that rivalry and they started him as the us champ and then the wcw champ in a matter of months, what it took bret years to do in wwf wcw tried to cram it down in a matter of months which did not come out right
Thanks for replying. I understand your point of view. At times Bret can come across as rather arrogant. It's not just about money I'm afraid. Vince had a vision...he knew where he was heading with the attitude era.....there was no place for Hitman in this era and I think Hitman didn't like being heel as he is so self-righteous. Granted Bret had leverage on Vince...he has a contract which gave him a lot of power and Vince was not happy with it. This may have played part in letting him go.
the hart foundation are easily in the top 5 greatest tag teams of that generation...perhaps even ever....
I've done a video about this subject and I discuss it in detail. But I have two points. 1) Bret was lucky enough to have a camera crew shooting a documentary during the whole thing. That sounds fishy. Also, Bret called HBK and HHH by their stage names. If it was all real, Bret would have called them by their real names. 2) Why would Bret allow his worst enemy to put Him in the sharpshooter, his own move? That's why it was all a work. Just like any other employee, Bret did what he was told to do.
Yea I've gone back and forth over the years on whether or not that was a work and part of me does feel like Bret has himself to blame. Apparently before the match Vader actually came up and to him and warned him about something like this happening because Vader saw screwjobs first hand in Japan. I guess he just figured Shawn would never go through with it despite their animosity. Bret was being extremely naive.
It depends, Bret was a top guy in the WWF he was making the most money of anyone in the company, if he were to resign it wouldn't be cheap, he was making money, but not enough money, you know what i mean?
Hey the Hart Foundation was awesome, remember when they had pillman in there? I used to be a huge Foundation mark xD
That's not entirely fair, Bret was very over as a heel in the WWF, mainly with the Hart Foundation and to boot he was the best in ring worker on the roster at the time.
It was just that he was making too much money, and with him at the latter end of his career and the WWF's financial struggles they deemed it better for him to leave.
Bret however failed to do his obligation to drop the belt before leaving and Vince did what he had to do to protect his company.
Hehe. If you say so. I think its too easy to go right to hogan or flair though either. I think that whole company was just screwed up internally by the time bret got there. He didnt really fit to their storylines either. HE just didnt have a place in the whole nwo/wolfpack/wcw story. Once nwo phased out i think there was unlimited potential for a bret/sting, bret/flair, bret/goldberg, bret/benoit. The possibilities were endless. He ended up wrestling all of them but true feuds never materialized
@TNO73 Gee I dont know...I dont think Bret ever showed his full upper body, but Flair in his prime had nice set of abs and great biceps....which was influenced by steroids as Flair admitted in his autobiography (he said he used roids on and off to enhance his appearance)
Well Vince knew he had to back out of the contract he originally offered to Bret, that's why he suggested Bret to go to WCW. As far as a draw, HBK wasn't a good draw either in 1996. Bottom line is it didn't matter who Vince put in that spot that year, WCW was kicking their ass no matter what because of the nWo angle. WCW had plucked the cabinet dry of all the top WWF stars by then. The sad thing is HBK actually had some great matches during his first title run, but no one gave a crap.
and also keep in mind why would they have a camera in the back right after the even like in Wrestling with Shadows? It seems awfully convenient to shoot a documentary during the most controversial moment in pro wrestling. And furthermore, Bret called shawn and HHH by their stage names. If he was really pissed, he would call them by their real names. So the whole thing was a work. Bret did not get screwed. He ended up making 2x as much in WCW.
True enough that WCW was kicking ass at that time, but Vince could not have gone into the Attitude Era with Bret. That's why Bret had to go.
It's a shame that Bret doesn't run a wrestling company. It would be funny as hell to see Ric shamelessly taking back everything negative he's ever said about Bret and kissing his ass like hell in order to try and get a job for him.
That's a very good point actually...hmmmm. you got me thinking now.
@Mase379 the WM match between stonecold vs bret put austin on the map. he also made hbk
i agree with most of the grading below between Flair and Brett except for a couple of things.1) Flair in his prime had just as good a body or even better. 2) Flair's mic skills are so far superior to Brett's that rating them on a scale like that doesn't really show how big a difference there really was. Brett had decent mic skills at best and Flair was one the greatest and considered THE best by many people.
@mastermold2011 ....I couldnt agree more.
True enough. And Vader was not the only person that warned Bret. But keep in mind that bret never really got screwed anyway. He left for WCW and made a ton of money. Sure it ruined his legacy and career, but if you look at it economically, Bret still didn't get screwed even though he whined about being screwed for years. And that is one of the main reasons why I don't like Bret--too much of a whiner. Who would whine about making 3 mil a yr? Only Bret would. Hard to like sum1 like that.
Looking at some comments on here. Flair did not make Bret. Flair's mic skills? I changed the channel everytime he was had a mic in his hand. Bret Hart didn't make any real money? Hog
an leaving the WWE could of spelled doom for them, but Bret carried the WWE through that tough time. Flair's best matches all came before the 90s. The fact he still is wrestling just shows how unfair the world is.
some of you guys need to watch flair vs steamboat right now if you dont think he was one of the best ever watch ANY OF THERE MATCHES
How many Ric Flair parrots are there responding to this video???
@TNO73 you are so correct with your grading man, I agree 100%
Bret Hart's gimmick was not about being cocky or cutting a good promo. It was about being the best wrestler.
That's why fans liked him because fans liked Bret's humility. Just because you scream like a maniac in a promo doesn't mean its a good promo e.g Hogan, Warrior,...
I do however think most of Flair promos were excellent and some of them were very funny.
They are both very different wrestlers.
Bret was mainly about technique to entertain fans, Flair was mainly about charisma.
Actually according to Bret, Flair has badmouthed Savage and Foley. He said Flair would criticize Savage on the way he'd have to map out every part of a match. This is actually well documented that Savage was like this, where as a guy like Flair called all his spots on the fly. I guess its more of a constructive criticism. Flair called Foley a "glorified stuntman" in his book, that's why they had issues.
I wonder where all the annimosity started with these two. Their complaint about each other is that they don't vary their matches much. Flair does the same moves every match & so does Bret. I find that pretty much every wrestler does that. Still I like them both, but overall I think Bret is better.
Body Flair C Bret B
Mic skills Flair A+ Bret C
Ability Flair A Bret A+
Technique Flair B Bret A+
Athleticism Flair B Bret A
Endurance Flair A+ Bret B+
In ring Storytelling Flair A +Bret A+
Well, I heard that Sting was also supposed to be the 3rd member of the NWO. Keep in mind the fact that Vince wanted bret to leave and go to WCW in 96 shows that Bret was not a big enough draw for Vince. You always try to keep your biggest stars--not get rid of them. That's why I think Flair was right about all the things he said about hart.
It's really hard to say it was a work. There's been interviews by countless wrassler's, Foley, Taker', Austin, etc and to say that Vince had everyone on board with this "work" seems to far fetched. Here in Canada there is a show on TSN called Off the Record, where all of the people involved plus many others have been asked about it. Plus in Bret's book, as well a Foley's 2nd I believe, it's just to hard to believe it was staged as a work. Bret is way to honest to let it go for 12 yrs
I dont think Flair bad mouths him, I think he simple stands by what he said in his book instead of back peddling. He says Bret NEVER drew any REAL money... Who can disagree with that???
Agree, but I'm not talking interview skills here; that's totally irrelevant to the discussion. As far as "making someone look better," that's not that big a deal anymore. Most any truly great wrestler can do that.
Certainly. There really is no excuse for WCW doing nothing with Bret considering the massive controversy involving the screw job. Didn't Vince turn the controversy around in his favor by creating the ultimate heel and him playing the role? Once again, no excuses for WCW in this case.
I LOVE BRET HART !!!!!!!!
@liquermike I agree with Flair, the entire time HBK and Hitman were champoins wwf was going broke.
Actually, no, Bret can blame Bischoff and the WCW bookers of the time. They stopped hyping Bret right as soon as he arrived, then they just put him on the backburner to make room for shit like Goldberg punching out a car window and almost losing his arm and Judith Bagwell on a pole, aswell as catering to Hulk "Politics" Hogan's ego. When all the "Big Boys" finally stopped playing and it looked like Bret would finally have his time, Golberg ends his career w/ a careless kick. Bret blame Bret?
@mastermold2011 So true.
No he didn't use the same set-up. Watch Flair's matches in the 1980's. Including the Steamboat matches. He actually did moves off the top rope instead of just getting slammed from it. His matches also had all kinds of unpredictable finishes. He knew how to piss the crowd off royally during the match with his personality, then make them cheer like hell to see him lose. Bret could never do that. He just didn't have Flair's charisma and his move-set made less sense as well.
@benyo112 Why? wwf WAS going broke, they lost there regular tv time slots. They had to fly in talent from other countries to fill spots on ppvs.
Was this shoot before Flair's autobiography came out?
I agree with you totally. From listening to each in interviews throughout the years, they take themselves waaaay too seriously. As much as they like to trash Kevin Nash, they need more of his attitude. You didn't really win anything. It's fake.
@StreetsOfSonic watch him vs barry windam ,dusty rhoads,and terry funk also
@DropkickLar I used to love Flair on the mic, but Nick Bockwinkle buries him with a simmilar cool style without resorting to screaming. Bret got better on the mic as time went by, but I disagree with your view of Flair being better. Both guys have patented moves the difference is that Bret's looked believable. His turnbuckle to the chest looks better than let's say the Flair flop. Or the flip in the corner or the top rope grab & toss. Bret is a better storyteller in the ring.
Except that Flair is known to have basically used the same setup time after time after time ala Cena. Flair was overall much better, no real comparison there, but that's simply the truth. It got to a point where you could predict everything he was going to do, and even in what order. Am I saying Flair didn't have great matches outside of 1? Of course not, but technically speaking Bret has him beat by a landslide in my observation.
@TheHappynot Flair had a longer run at the top, winning the NWA championship in 1981. Bret pretty much had a 10 year run as a top guy right up until the worst in ring worker of all time ended his career.
FLAIR VS BRET VS HULK MAKE HAPPIN !!!!!!
My opinion, who the heck cares who drew more money than who, whose the bigger star, whose the better wrestler, who has the biggest ego, whose backside smells better SHUT UP! HOGAN, FLAIR, HART, SHAWN, SAVAGE, TAKER etc. All these guys are legends but some of these guys need to stop drinking out of their own kool-aid, stop believing their b.s, get over the past and APPRECIATE and RESPECT each others legacy, live happily ever after and MOVE ON!!!
@MeThinks995 I think your dislike for Flair is making you give unfair criticism. I'm with you in that I don't like him. I think he's a two faced snake, and I think he's overrated.
But the stuff he did up through WM 8 was great. The RR he won is often regarded as the greatest Rumble of all time. His feud with Savage was one of the best either had, and their match....when you take everything into account....was the best on the card.
Piper & Hart was great, but there was no build up.
@Toad166666 thank you
as long as we agree with the overall point...
Yes, I am saying Bret had very very little charisma. There are pages full of youtube mixes of Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan cutting promos. Try searching up Bret. There's a single vid of one promo and that's it. Secondly, those Steamboat matches are widely considered the best matches ever. If you don't know them, you don't know shit about this topic. I can run down dozens of Bret's matches easily. You don't even know a single one of Flair's very best.
Umm dude, why do you care if Bret "can't get it up"...that sounds a little umm...well you know. Oh, and Stone Cold did whine, and then walked out of a Raw he was scheduled to be at like a little girl instead of just going to Vince "like a man" and telling him what his problems were. That's well documented.
I don't care what anyone says, Hogan and possibly Flair are the blame for Bret Harts less than stellar run in WCW. Bret was just involved in the most infamous wrestling event in WWF, yet WCW coudn't do anything with that?
Does ANYBODY have this full shoot? Please it sounds awesome
Of course I know of them. I've seen them and I know they were great. I don't have them run down in my memory, but that doesn't matter. I'm not saying he never had great matches. But he was definitely one of those who overall (especially later in his career) was very repetitive and predictable. You almost never got that from Bret, even at the end of his career.
Bret had ok charisma but he wasn't confident. We saw what he was capable of at the end of his career and it was actually pretty decent.
flair vs bret vs hogan triple threat match, the first to pin the other 2 wins the match
I just want ppl to know that if Bret was as good as he says he was, then why did Vince let him go? The only reason why Vince would let Bret go was b/c Bret was not worth the money. If Bret made money for Vince, Vince would have kept him. Thus, Bret was not that good.
You clearly didn't even search Flair vs. Steamboat, because there are dozens of those matches and 3 in 1989 alone, which blew everything else away as the 3 best matches of that year, including what's widely considered the greatest match of all-time. Watch everything Flair did in the WWF, watch his matches with Sting and Vader. Search up Flair vs. Road Warrior Hawk to see how he could get a great match that ends in a HUGE pop out of anyone. To even have to be explaining this is pathetic.
Bret always has decent things to say about flair but im always hearing flair bad mouth bret.
@mastermold2011 And I can't believe I actually liked this s.o.b. back in the day. Boy, talk about wasted time. He IS two-faced and, from what I've heard over the years, what has come out to the public is only a taste of how rotten he really is. I was glad when I started following Bret and other real wrestlers (Curt Hennig, Randy Savage, Sting).
Answer the question.
Charisma also is key to working a match. Unless you think a match is just complex moves with absolutely no drama involved? It's obvious you know jack and shit.
you seem to be regurgitating someone else's words. Bret drew money just not enough to take the company to the next level...The N.W.O was too hot...enter Steve Austin...the savior of WWF...the leader of the Attitude Era....he had an iconic run..enter...The Rock....an icon too whose run will be carry on due to lack of injuries, a movie career which WWE loves to be associated with.
A reasonable conversation on youtube?? the hell????
Well my overall opinion is that the whole Montreal Screwjob was a work. Bret was in on it as much as everyone else. Why else would he agree to be put in his own move by his most hated rival??? Seems fishy.....
damn bret you o.k with me
Honestly, I don't care one way or the other.
@kriegpaolo I wouldn't say he had a GREAT body, but good yes. Comparing the two in their primes Bret's was the better of the two. Technique I might be aoff by a bit, but again I think Bret is better in that area.
@trocknickel The HELL Hart did!!! Jake the Snake made Austin, Austin 3:16, check your history pal. Truth be told Austin made himself and didnt need an extra push. And dont forget FLAIR MADE HART!
Flair has his same exact setups he uses & mannerisms and the begging & the low blow & top rope shit and what have you. Just like Hogan has the pumping up, the fist strike, the irish whip & big boot etc. Same for Cena & some other wrestlers. Not saying Flair was always exactly the same but for a large part he was. To suggest Hart was more predictable than Flair is just silly. As far as charisma, sure but that's ANOTHER thing u are bringing up really doesn't have anything do with this discussion.
I'm talking in general and it's true. Flair was about as repetitive and predictable as anyone and plenty of other wrestlers have said the same. And I don't get why you bring charisma into the equation as it has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.
@nexivdr agreed he put austin on top... he did not make hbk.
@liquermike K, it's simple. WCW never gave Bret the chance, they screwed Bret by making him compete for the U.S title when he clearly wasn't even in that league. Bret just didn't fit in WCW because WCW absolutely fucking sucked when it came to scripting matches. Bret was controversy, WCW was piss poor.
I know jack shit because I don't think charisma is the only measurable facet to judge a wrestler by? & are u suggesting Bret had no charisma?
Ha ha, ok. Are u trying to say Bret never had matches with drama involved? It seems ur dodging every point I'm making & trying to argue around them by bringing up other things & bolstering them with hyperbole.
The question? I don't remember those exact finishes. So what? I'm making a general statement here. I'm not gonna quiz YOU on Bret's matches, lol.
youre out of your mind. bret was wrestling in the 90s.
Do you not know how utterly over Bret Hart was in the 90s when he was IC and World Champion? Vince discribed him as the guy you could build an entire company around! Do your research man! Vince gave him an out to goto WCW because he couldn't afford to match their offer. It had nothing to do with how much he was drawing. HBK and Diesel were the ones who dropped that particular ball. Seriously, before posting your own biased ignorance as opinion, do some research.
@liquerm Flair especially didnt draw any money in his 1st WWE run & only Drew a little bit in his second a s as sideshow act for vince "COME ONE COME ALL! GAZE & BE AMAZED BY THE WASHED UP FORMER 14 TIME WORLD HEAVY WEIGHT CHAMPION! MARVEL AS HE SELLS OIT TO VINCE & HANGS ON TO WHAT LITTLE STAR POWER HE HAS LEFT!
Vince tried to build his company around Bret, & it failed. Who would you rather have carrying your company? Austin? Rock? Foley? or Bret Hart? See, Bret just couldn't compete with those top guys. Vince realized that Bret wasn't worth the money and let Bret go to WCW. Would Vince ever let Austin go to WCW? Or let The Rock go to WCW? Hell no. Rock and Austin drew money, unlike Bret. Austin made more money for Vince in 1 month then Bret did his entire career. Bret was bland--no charisma.
@TNO73 Body Flair C Bret B
Mic skills Flair A+ Bret B- (Bret was a great story teller as far as building a feud)
Ability Flair B- (Same match every night) Bret A+ (Take chicken shit and make it into Chick salad)
Technique Flair B Bret A+
Athleticism Flair B Bret A
Endurance Flair (Flair would have to win this against anybody) A+ Bret B+
In ring Storytelling Flair A +Bret A+
Overall Bret's better Flair has not been on top of wrestling since 1993.
The guy had a stroke, how about a little sensitivity? As far as rooting for a guy, umm I could give a shit if another dude can get it up or not, I tend not to think about other guys in that way. Anyway, whether you think Stone Cold was right or not isn't the point. It was unprofessional what he did. People paid money to see him at a show that he was advertised to show up at and he went home. So IMO what he did is worse than Bret whining in interviews which ultimately doesn't effect anyone.
a Man doesn't whine. Bret whined all the time. So he was no man, and he can't even get it up anymore..so if that is your idea of a hero--someone that whines like a little girl and someone that can't even get it up...then fine...worship him all you want, but for the rest of us that can still pop wood men, we don't like whiners...did Stone Cold ever whine? hell no. Did Rock ever whine? hell no. See, real men don't whine. Losers whine.
Well, if you want to root for a man that can't even get it up anymore, then maybe that is how you want to be...but I don't...and Austin was right..I would not have jobbed to Lesnar either..and at that time Stone Cold didn't need Vince anymore...Bret ALWAYS needed Vince....
Then prove me wrong, lol.
Flair is repetitive and predictable? Okay, what were the finishes of the Steamboat matches from '89? I'll ignore for now that you don't understand the role charisma plays in working a match because that's asinine.
@liquermike The facts. Bret was a bigger draw than Flair.
What? Flair was great in MANY many matches wth are you talking about? While brett was a fantastic technical wrestler and perhaps the best of the 80s, he was a mediocre interview. Flair, by contrast ran the best promos ever. Flair also could make the best wrestler in an area look like they were better then him, he would always allow them to work him over good so all the fans got entertainment but hed win in end and fans would say dam, we almost had flair.
If Bret made money for Vince, Vince would have kept him. Bret was just a very boring guy. And as a man that lives in the USA, I thought the Hart Foundation sucked..I did like Owen though..and I thought the feud was dull....Bret just whined too much...whined so much, people stopped caring....
@JacksonXxXWaWa prosze bardzo nie problema
Guys tell me please whats wrong with this Ric Flair what he do wrong in buiseness ?
@JacksonXxXWaWa because he is a washed up old has been who still thinks hes the man,even back in his day he wasnt that good in the 80s flair had creative control and the few freinds he had were keeping the top spots for themselves,and keeping younger more talented guys down,funny how when he went to the big time company he flopped and got sent back to wcw with his tail between his legs after stealing the wcw title and taking it to wwf
Sure enough...;) People are going to have to realize that Bret was a whiner. And, in my opinion, he was just boring--even in the ring! His promos were boring. IMO Bret had no passion, he had no creativity, it was like watching a robot--he never gave me a reason to give a damn about him. And there is much more to a match than workrate. Thanks for your support.
Bret was very bland in the ring. He was dull on the mic. He had no charisma. He never made money for Vince. That is why Vince let him go. He could not draw a dime and he was never that big of a star.
Bret Hart was better than Ric Flair.