I just wanted to say that I believe the mash hops is added not for flavour, but because it is supposed to react with some of the metal ions and reduce chance of cold side oxidation. I probably heard this in some podcast interviewing Scott.
I believe it's added solely to make the room smell better. I recently brewed a beer with no boil additions. First hops were in whirlpool. The hop aroma was sorely missed.
the VIN7 and rapidase are explained in scott janish's article "thiol driver", they're both used to release bound thiols from the hops and malt. also you can substitute QA23 from lalvin in place of the VIN7 which should be much easier to source.
I’m just about to try a similar enzyme - I think it helps release hop aroma during the bio transformation process. Also I’ve heard mash hopping and first wort hopping helps prevent boil overs
it cleaves the glycosidic bond between a sugar molecule and a bound functional group (like a monoterpene) in a glycoside. so in theory, this should free bound terpenes for use in biotransformation.
Thank you for doing all the experiment work for us! I look forward to your comparison video as well. I've always been a big fan of simplifying a process to make it easier and more repeatable. When I see a crazy-involved recipe I appreciate the effort put forth but often find myself saying "there has got to be an easier way to get similar results". Cheers!
the enzyme is beta glucosidase its the biotransformation enzyme, used in wine making apparently makes fruit more fruity, iv used it in my last brew (which I've brewed a few times) and I'm not sure of the difference, i don't know if the hop flavour or aroma has increased but i would say it lowered the bitterness a bit, so maybe useful in a neipa but i have read that high residual glucose can affect its performance some maybe only see the full effect in a brut ipa???
Great work, just brewed my first neipa and it is a very involved process. Closed transfers, double dry hop closed, enzymes. Lot of stress really producing something that doesn't really taste like beer but you could drink at 5 times the price of other great beers. Sometimes there's great complexity and enjoyment in a really simple beer. Keep up the good work.
Seen a lot of people using white wheat malt with a lot of good reviews,gonna have to try it out and the beer looked beautiful and juicy beautiful colour. Cheers 🍺🍻
That 1.018 finishing gravity for a mash at 158F with London Ale III is completely normal, and doesn't at all indicate a struggling fermentation. If anything I would have expected it to attenuate a little less with that mash temperature. London Ale III responds well to variation in mash parameters, both mash length and temperature. If the ferment was sluggish to finish that suggests perhaps you were fermenting the beer too cool, or didn't increase fermenter temperature after day 2, which is always a good idea with virtually any yeast, but especially British ale yeasts. Setting that aside, I would say this recipe is more of an experiment that doesn't represent the 'state of the art' for how these beers are brewed. For instance, few of the best recognised breweries for the style are using dry hops before first cold crashing to around 45F and removing yeast. The tests done with the glucosidase enzymes by most brewers I have spoken with basically suggest that they're a waste of time and money, there are yeast that will achieve similar results, and even that being the case the character brought by the enzyme tends to increase the flavours from the hops which are less desired. Lastly, at around 7g/L this beer isn't representative of the kind of dry hopping rates used to achieve the punchy, hyper-expressive beers that people tend to gush over - 15g/L is becoming close to an industry standard, though some use even more than this, some a little less.
Came here to say the same thing about LAIII, I'm actually surprised it fermented that far down even at 158F... It's naturally a lower attenuator. Wyeast site quotes 71-75% and it sounds like this is in line with what they got, although who knows how the wine yeast impacted this beer. All good points though. One thing that I'll add, this beer is probably still conditioning if it was dry hopped 3 days ago. Mine usually come into their own around 2 weeks after the cold dry hop.
Mike seems like he was over this before the camera blinked ON. Agreed there are a lot of levers, but that's experimenting to approach a professional beer at home.
It will all make more sense when we next week discuss John's beer too. I think this is a great place to start as the beer is spot on. Maybe it would be cool to start to reverse engineer from here to see how the components effected the outcome. Cheers! -Mike
I did the Cheater X recipe that was in the same issue, I think, using almost all ingredients from Valley Malt.. Came out amazing. My only quibble was that it was a little too bitter, so I'd dial back the comet at 60 minutes for that one.
Thanks for posting, love your guys videos and coincidentally I have some Wyeast 1318 on the stir plate now using for the first time. I am making an Old Nation’s, out of Williamston, MI, “New Orthodox” IPA series, M-43 clone that I'm brewing tomorrow. Using Great Lakes Malting Pilsen, Flaked wheat, flaked oats and Naked golden oats with Calypso, Simcoe, Citra and Amarillo hops. The recipe has a 1.067 OG and a 1018FG with a 154° mash schedule. I always wanted to try Chit malt from watching Michael Tonsmeire but our LHBS does not carry it. Cheers Brew Dudes!
Are you using the same IBU formula as in the Janish article? I think high IBU calcs and certainly the estimates for any type of whirlpool addition are a mess. Calculated IBUs are just such a messy thing to compare model to model, recipe to recipe, brewer to brewer. Are you missing something... yea but its not obvious to anyone what it would be. So it is what it is. I think the best advice I ever heard was long before Janish was even one of our "pundits". Jamil Z always said the numbers are always wrong but they are consistent. Pick a model and stick with it. If your beer needs to be more bitter the formula you used allows you to more easily adjust it next with even if the AA% changes lot to lot of hops. Cheres! -Mike
I like your take in this Mike. It sounds like a tasty beer, but I like to use the K.I.S.S. method when writing my beer recipes. Can I make a really good NEIPA without all the extra additional steps/additions? I like to think so, but it's nice to hear others methods on beer making. Cheers!!!
I’m am in a similar predicament. I made a hazy about a month ago 12 lbs golden promise 2. Lbs flaked oat 2 lbs oat malt 2 lbs white wheat Whirl pooled 6 oz hops and dry hopped 4 oz. Mashed at 156, didn’t like the colour and was murky. This time around im switching to Pilsner malt and only flaked adjuncts mashing at 152. My fg last time was 1.024 so im hoping for a lighter colour and lower fg. It’s all fun I guess, I suspect my kviek yeast is my nemesis but will see what the grain bill difference yields
Hi - I was able to get a lower FG and lighter color with my companion beer to the Janish NEIPA with pilsner malt and flaked grains. Check out the follow up video to this one. - John
Thats what a hazy should look like 🍺🍻. The final gravity is normal actually. If I remember correctly Scott tries to get around 1.020 final gravity in his hazies. Mike is right about the drinkability though. I dislike the trend of pushing hazies sweeter and sweeter. I prefer the slightly bitter versions.
Understood what you are saying about the trend. The whole milkshake thing doesn't sound like it will drive me to have more than one. This one wasn't sweet, just a full body that Mike didn't feel like made for a multiple pint session of this same beer. - John
High protein malts, higher mash temp and high FG. It all works together I think to get there. And silky is to strong a word I think. Its just really full in my palate. Cheers! -Mike
Can't be done. You can make a decent hoppy beer with big whirlpool additions only, but you can't make a Hazy IPA, or any kind of really expressive hop-driven beer, without using a large dose of dry hops. If anything I would describe this recipe as lacking in dry hop quantity. Look into buying your hops in bulk, if you brew 20G batches you should be looking at at least 1kg of dry hops post fermentation in a NEIPA.
Could the enzyme have been ALDC? It’s used to prevent diacetyl production - have heard of Brewers using it to help combat hop creep in heavily dry hopped beers
Its a beta-glycosidase. Works to release terminal glucose residues from oligocaccharides (chained sugars). Further reading also suggests the removal of sugar residues bound up with aroma molecules which makes them more volatile hence improves aroma. Cheers! -Mike
Erick nailed Mike's general sentiment on the subject. Basically, yeast produced on the west coast don't ship well to the east coast and it affects the quality of the yeast. - John
HA! I just rewatched it. I had a lot going through my mind in this recipe and I think it shows when I finally critique the end results and more importantly how we got there. Cheers! -Mike
Using chit malt, then v.high mash temp, then wanting an enzyme addition just seems weird. Why not mash at 65C then raise to 70C and add the high protein grains give it a good stir and then drain without the mash bed settling? High protein high fermentable wort.
The focus of the enzyme is to improve aroma actually. I was unprepared for that curve ball in the recipe -pre-show. Its a beta-glycosidase. Works to release terminal glucose residues from oligocaccharides (chained sugars). Further reading also suggests the removal of sugar residues bound up with aroma molecules which makes them more volatile hence improves aroma. Cheers! -Mike
no, wine yeast can't ferment most of the sugars in beer wort. wine is dry because grapes contain mostly simple sugars, not because the yeasts are highly attenuative
It's funny, I have not heard of oat malt and the DuckDuckGo top 5 results lists an article of yours from '09 saying the same thing. I agree it seems worthwhile to identify and simplify the process if possible. Read Scott's book as well, willing to try this in a small 2 gal test batch. But currently I'm fermenting a slightly modified NEIPA recipe of Scott's business partner Mike www.themadfermentationist.com/2017/07/cryo-lupulin-neipa-citra-mosaic.html
I think when a few people started to describe the mouthfeel as relatively full and malt supportive over time that got morphed to creamy and silky, then it went to another extreme as people started adding lactose. So more and more people would try and add body sometimes with and without lactose. Its sort of interesting to see the progression. I prefer a decent smoothness without the hop burn. Cheers! -Mike
@@BrewDudes yeah, we're just starting to get some decent NEIPAs out here. But I've had some great beers when I was out in Boston, and when I went to Connecticut. Initially it's everyone trying to figure out what makes these beers different, but then trying to improve on them. Sometimes taking things to the extreme is what ends up ruining it. Kind of like how west coast IPAs kept increasing IBUs until normal people just couldn't tolerate it.
I just wanted to say that I believe the mash hops is added not for flavour, but because it is supposed to react with some of the metal ions and reduce chance of cold side oxidation.
I probably heard this in some podcast interviewing Scott.
That's interesting
I seem to remember that from somewhere too. Cheers! -Mike
I believe it's added solely to make the room smell better. I recently brewed a beer with no boil additions. First hops were in whirlpool. The hop aroma was sorely missed.
Thanks for including the metric system dudes.
We try and remember. Cheers! -Mike
How long are you supposed to leave those hops in the keg?
the VIN7 and rapidase are explained in scott janish's article "thiol driver", they're both used to release bound thiols from the hops and malt. also you can substitute QA23 from lalvin in place of the VIN7 which should be much easier to source.
True that - thanks for the info. Could be interesting to try maybe someday. - John
I’m just about to try a similar enzyme - I think it helps release hop aroma during the bio transformation process. Also I’ve heard mash hopping and first wort hopping helps prevent boil overs
Right on, the dudes kinda missed the point of both of those variables.
What enzyme if you don't mind me asking?
@@quinnpink5429 Aromazyme from lallemand
it cleaves the glycosidic bond between a sugar molecule and a bound functional group (like a monoterpene) in a glycoside. so in theory, this should free bound terpenes for use in biotransformation.
I assumed. I don’t believe they sell the stuff in small enough quantities for me to justify right now haha. Looking forward to that video!
Thank you for doing all the experiment work for us! I look forward to your comparison video as well. I've always been a big fan of simplifying a process to make it easier and more repeatable. When I see a crazy-involved recipe I appreciate the effort put forth but often find myself saying "there has got to be an easier way to get similar results". Cheers!
Thank you! I think you can get great results from a more simple approach. - John
Love this channel
Thanks!
the enzyme is beta glucosidase its the biotransformation enzyme, used in wine making apparently makes fruit more fruity, iv used it in my last brew (which I've brewed a few times) and I'm not sure of the difference, i don't know if the hop flavour or aroma has increased but i would say it lowered the bitterness a bit, so maybe useful in a neipa but i have read that high residual glucose can affect its performance some maybe only see the full effect in a brut ipa???
Thanks for the note!
Great work, just brewed my first neipa and it is a very involved process. Closed transfers, double dry hop closed, enzymes. Lot of stress really producing something that doesn't really taste like beer but you could drink at 5 times the price of other great beers. Sometimes there's great complexity and enjoyment in a really simple beer. Keep up the good work.
True - it fun to follow along but not my typical way of brewing. - John
Seen a lot of people using white wheat malt with a lot of good reviews,gonna have to try it out and the beer looked beautiful and juicy beautiful colour.
Cheers 🍺🍻
Cheers!
That 1.018 finishing gravity for a mash at 158F with London Ale III is completely normal, and doesn't at all indicate a struggling fermentation. If anything I would have expected it to attenuate a little less with that mash temperature. London Ale III responds well to variation in mash parameters, both mash length and temperature. If the ferment was sluggish to finish that suggests perhaps you were fermenting the beer too cool, or didn't increase fermenter temperature after day 2, which is always a good idea with virtually any yeast, but especially British ale yeasts.
Setting that aside, I would say this recipe is more of an experiment that doesn't represent the 'state of the art' for how these beers are brewed. For instance, few of the best recognised breweries for the style are using dry hops before first cold crashing to around 45F and removing yeast. The tests done with the glucosidase enzymes by most brewers I have spoken with basically suggest that they're a waste of time and money, there are yeast that will achieve similar results, and even that being the case the character brought by the enzyme tends to increase the flavours from the hops which are less desired. Lastly, at around 7g/L this beer isn't representative of the kind of dry hopping rates used to achieve the punchy, hyper-expressive beers that people tend to gush over - 15g/L is becoming close to an industry standard, though some use even more than this, some a little less.
Came here to say the same thing about LAIII, I'm actually surprised it fermented that far down even at 158F... It's naturally a lower attenuator. Wyeast site quotes 71-75% and it sounds like this is in line with what they got, although who knows how the wine yeast impacted this beer. All good points though.
One thing that I'll add, this beer is probably still conditioning if it was dry hopped 3 days ago. Mine usually come into their own around 2 weeks after the cold dry hop.
Thanks - appreciate the notes. - John
This beer has aged well. Still packing a hop punch this weekend. - John
This is top level brewtube stuff!
Top level! Now I know we've made it! Thanks for the support! Cheers! -Mike
Mike seems like he was over this before the camera blinked ON. Agreed there are a lot of levers, but that's experimenting to approach a professional beer at home.
It will all make more sense when we next week discuss John's beer too. I think this is a great place to start as the beer is spot on. Maybe it would be cool to start to reverse engineer from here to see how the components effected the outcome. Cheers! -Mike
Looks like a solid tasty beer. Cheers
This was a tasty beer, I will give it that for sure. Cheers! -Mike
I did the Cheater X recipe that was in the same issue, I think, using almost all ingredients from Valley Malt.. Came out amazing. My only quibble was that it was a little too bitter, so I'd dial back the comet at 60 minutes for that one.
Right on!
Thanks for posting, love your guys videos and coincidentally I have some Wyeast 1318 on the stir plate now using for the first time. I am making an Old Nation’s, out of Williamston, MI, “New Orthodox” IPA series, M-43 clone that I'm brewing tomorrow. Using Great Lakes Malting Pilsen, Flaked wheat, flaked oats and Naked golden oats with Calypso, Simcoe, Citra and Amarillo hops. The recipe has a 1.067 OG and a 1018FG with a 154° mash schedule. I always wanted to try Chit malt from watching Michael Tonsmeire but our LHBS does not carry it.
Cheers Brew Dudes!
Yeah, I had to find Chit Malt online. It was the one ingredient I had to get elsewhere. Brew ON! - John
I tried keg-dry-hopping for the first time recently and gotta say I think it made a big difference. Definitely something I'll be doing more of
Brew on!
this recipe via beersmith is 118IBU with the high temp whirlpool additions. Janish says recipe is 74IBU. am I missing something?
Are you using the same IBU formula as in the Janish article? I think high IBU calcs and certainly the estimates for any type of whirlpool addition are a mess. Calculated IBUs are just such a messy thing to compare model to model, recipe to recipe, brewer to brewer. Are you missing something... yea but its not obvious to anyone what it would be. So it is what it is. I think the best advice I ever heard was long before Janish was even one of our "pundits". Jamil Z always said the numbers are always wrong but they are consistent. Pick a model and stick with it. If your beer needs to be more bitter the formula you used allows you to more easily adjust it next with even if the AA% changes lot to lot of hops. Cheres! -Mike
I like your take in this Mike. It sounds like a tasty beer, but I like to use the K.I.S.S. method when writing my beer recipes. Can I make a really good NEIPA without all the extra additional steps/additions? I like to think so, but it's nice to hear others methods on beer making. Cheers!!!
Cheers!
I’m am in a similar predicament.
I made a hazy about a month ago
12 lbs golden promise
2. Lbs flaked oat
2 lbs oat malt
2 lbs white wheat
Whirl pooled 6 oz hops and dry hopped 4 oz.
Mashed at 156, didn’t like the colour and was murky.
This time around im switching to Pilsner malt and only flaked adjuncts mashing at 152. My fg last time was 1.024 so im hoping for a lighter colour and lower fg. It’s all fun I guess, I suspect my kviek yeast is my nemesis but will see what the grain bill difference yields
Hi - I was able to get a lower FG and lighter color with my companion beer to the Janish NEIPA with pilsner malt and flaked grains. Check out the follow up video to this one. - John
Is the 1 dislike on this video from Mike? lol!
Too funny! I should have logged in with my personal account and posted that way! Cheers! -Mike
i prefer Coors Light
Thats what a hazy should look like 🍺🍻. The final gravity is normal actually. If I remember correctly Scott tries to get around 1.020 final gravity in his hazies. Mike is right about the drinkability though. I dislike the trend of pushing hazies sweeter and sweeter. I prefer the slightly bitter versions.
Understood what you are saying about the trend. The whole milkshake thing doesn't sound like it will drive me to have more than one. This one wasn't sweet, just a full body that Mike didn't feel like made for a multiple pint session of this same beer. - John
I just had my fermentation using wyeast 1318 london ale III and this one was really agressive yeast. My fermenter took off like a rocket.
Finishes quick too
Interesting. Thanks for the note. - John
Cool.
What do you think actually caused the mouthfeel to be more silky? Also, did you notice the impact of adding hops in the mash?
High protein malts, higher mash temp and high FG. It all works together I think to get there. And silky is to strong a word I think. Its just really full in my palate. Cheers! -Mike
Your recommendation for making a Hazy without dry hopping?? Struggle with the hop cost with 20G batches
Can't be done. You can make a decent hoppy beer with big whirlpool additions only, but you can't make a Hazy IPA, or any kind of really expressive hop-driven beer, without using a large dose of dry hops. If anything I would describe this recipe as lacking in dry hop quantity. Look into buying your hops in bulk, if you brew 20G batches you should be looking at at least 1kg of dry hops post fermentation in a NEIPA.
@@hophunter4207 ok Thank you
Yes, what HopHunter420 stated. Hazies are most dry hops for me. - John
Could the enzyme have been ALDC? It’s used to prevent diacetyl production - have heard of Brewers using it to help combat hop creep in heavily dry hopped beers
Its a beta-glycosidase. Works to release terminal glucose residues from oligocaccharides (chained sugars). Further reading also suggests the removal of sugar residues bound up with aroma molecules which makes them more volatile hence improves aroma. Cheers! -Mike
My current direction is to try and find the minimal complexity for what I'm happy with as a NEIPA, admittedly I'm not chasing the silkiness too much.
Right on.
Mike, what were you referencing regarding weak East Coast yeasts??
Probably the fact that Wyeast (WY1318) is made in Oregon and shipped to the east coast, which is probably bad for the health of the yeast
That's exactly right - He thinks that they don't ship well and we may suffer for it. - John
Erick nailed Mike's general sentiment on the subject. Basically, yeast produced on the west coast don't ship well to the east coast and it affects the quality of the yeast. - John
Mike, what was going through your mind starting at about 2:02? ;-)
HA! I just rewatched it. I had a lot going through my mind in this recipe and I think it shows when I finally critique the end results and more importantly how we got there. Cheers! -Mike
Can’t wait for your simpler NEIPA comparison!!!!
Hope you dug it. - John
Using chit malt, then v.high mash temp, then wanting an enzyme addition just seems weird. Why not mash at 65C then raise to 70C and add the high protein grains give it a good stir and then drain without the mash bed settling? High protein high fermentable wort.
The focus of the enzyme is to improve aroma actually. I was unprepared for that curve ball in the recipe -pre-show. Its a beta-glycosidase. Works to release terminal glucose residues from oligocaccharides (chained sugars). Further reading also suggests the removal of sugar residues bound up with aroma molecules which makes them more volatile hence improves aroma. Cheers! -Mike
@@BrewDudes I know Genus brewing is a big proponent of enzymes.
why wait until the high temperature rest to add the high protein grains? will 65C break down the proteins?
@@karlthunderaxe because you want to release them with minimal breakdown so to increase the protein in the beer / wort to get better mouthfeel/haze.
What about using rye malt to get some mouthfeel .. I think the spicy character of rye would not hurt.
I don't think this beer lack mouthfeel, but the rye could be a nice twist. - John
158 boil temp is kinda high right?
mash temp, not boil. it's at the very top of the range.
Yes, it is kinda high. I believe it's high to bring more dextrins to the wort. - John
Aahhhhh
What are the total IBUs supposed to be?
BYO recipe has IBUs listed as 74
the wine yeast would have dried it up dont you think
no, wine yeast can't ferment most of the sugars in beer wort. wine is dry because grapes contain mostly simple sugars, not because the yeasts are highly attenuative
Not sure - Glad I didn't shell out the bucks to find out. - John
I will have to go back to the article to read why it's in there in the first place. - John
It's funny, I have not heard of oat malt and the DuckDuckGo top 5 results lists an article of yours from '09 saying the same thing. I agree it seems worthwhile to identify and simplify the process if possible. Read Scott's book as well, willing to try this in a small 2 gal test batch. But currently I'm fermenting a slightly modified NEIPA recipe of Scott's business partner Mike www.themadfermentationist.com/2017/07/cryo-lupulin-neipa-citra-mosaic.html
Go DuckDuckGo! This recipe was fun to brew. I like to make things a bit more simple for my own brewing/recipes. - John
When did people start thinking NEIPAs were supposed to resemble milkshakes?
I think when a few people started to describe the mouthfeel as relatively full and malt supportive over time that got morphed to creamy and silky, then it went to another extreme as people started adding lactose. So more and more people would try and add body sometimes with and without lactose. Its sort of interesting to see the progression. I prefer a decent smoothness without the hop burn. Cheers! -Mike
@@BrewDudes yeah, we're just starting to get some decent NEIPAs out here. But I've had some great beers when I was out in Boston, and when I went to Connecticut. Initially it's everyone trying to figure out what makes these beers different, but then trying to improve on them. Sometimes taking things to the extreme is what ends up ruining it. Kind of like how west coast IPAs kept increasing IBUs until normal people just couldn't tolerate it.
Nobody gives a crap about being fully vaxed, stick to the beer dudes
I have to wait a week for the next video... that you drank minutes after filming this one? Sigh... ok
Yeah, now you know our video schedule. - John
Make IPAs clear again...
Not this year.
You got the shot? Dear me, you boys like experimentation
yes, that totally wild and crazy thing that like... 90% of the world's population will be doing in the next year
Gets us back to doing videos inside.
@@BrewDudes keep healthy guys, your liver needs you.
No, it doesn't interest me personally. I am old school and filter all my beers.
Very cool. Are you an IPA guy in general? Do you prefer West Coast styles that you can filter clear? Cheers! -Mike