The idea that an audience can be in front of one cluster and not always get a true stereo image is not always understood. Love that you touched on that.
Thanks to videos like yours I've moved up from mixing small clubs, working production, and now the last 4 years touring with National country artists. Thank you Dave for all you do for the community.
I spent 5 minutes trying to find the English translation of his Cyrillic shirt in the outro... just now got it 😂😂 I'm a big fan of your content Mr. Rat, it is truly a joy to watch your videos!!
With all of the fancy digital stuff that's accessible now live, like Snapshots, VST Bridges and so on. It's REALLY valuable to have a resource like this! Simple and logical! Makes total sense, works with all consoles, all the fancy stuff is extra!
Came across this video on 3rd day of a 10 day festival, where i was struggling with foh mix. It literally saved the festival. amazing advice and channel. A treasure. Thanks Rat 🙏🏻💙
Your 'focusing on the artist' section reminded me of a video where you do an FOH tour, where your console is to your side instead of in front of you. 100% endorsed. When I'm doing a stage at an outdoor folk fest once the mix is stable I love to take my iPad and go sit on the grass with the rest of the audience. It's "normal" but not "natural" to turn the console into a kind of armour that separates you from the show.
I just started implementing the pre/post DCA’s and I love it! Such a great idea to give more room for creativity at the console. I love when I get to mix as if I’m playing an additional instrument and contributing to the band.
I have applied this strategy to several different consoles and its become my go-to for probably over 10 years now. Dave is the man! It has given me so much more freedom in my mix as you can spend more time on detailed fx and making it shine!
This was very helpful. I just realized my linked subgroup settings was triggering compression on a panned vocal sub group unnecessarily. Super helpful. Thank you !
I really think that this approach can be used when mixing in the studio as well. Thank you for taking the time to share this with everyone, this is invaluable stuff!
Cool beans. Everything you laid out makes sense. Makes me laugh though as when I started out mixing the local rock club on Long Island in 1988 or 89 our entire FOH system consisted of a Soundcraft 200B 32x4x2 feeding a Frankenstein PA that consisted of 3-18" EAW top loaded scoops, a single 15" and 2-12" front loaded cabinets and 2-2" JBL horns per side. For outboard gear we had an MXR 1/3 octave EQ, an Ashley compressor, MXR delay and Symmetriz reverb. Good stuff. Every hard rock and heavy metal band at the time came through there. Fun times.
As someone trying to learn mixing tracks in a DAW, this is such an eyeopener and a really useful reminder of the realities I am trying to reflect in a digital space. Thank you.
I don't normally comment but had to on this one. Been setting up my mixes just like this for 35+ years. Minus all the stereo imaging. Ever since I got my first compressor. Didn't have enough compressors for each vocal or instrument so the solution was subgroups. Over time, it evolved into an "auto mix" method. Same with the DCA's. Most don't understand or think about the difference of a DCA on a channel vs a DCA on the group (in regards to group compression). Great video Dave. It's like getting a validation.
I started trying to apply the mix strategy to an X32 and it's a learning curve but got working ok. The attack and release times vary depending on the compressor used. I will try an do a video on how to determine the attack and release times.
@@DaveRat it would be really great for me at this time, im getting back to work after these years of pandemic, and i will get a Midas 32 as a work base. Im now refreshing my knowledge, preparing my come back for the next weekend :) TY Dave!
I think I just found my new cubase template. Now I can finally focus on composing. You won't believe the mess Ive been making with vca's groups and sends. This makes so much sense. Thank you. Very grateful.
Wow! This makes so much sense...Very cool! One irony I would point out to this video is that your UA-cam audio leaves a lot to be desired here. I had trouble understanding a lot of what you were saying some of the time and had to jack my computer audio, but you can easily be forgiven. U RoK!
Thank for this very detailed explanation of complicated sound routing and explanations of your sound mixing strategies. The white board was very helpful to visualize a complicated system. It’s very interesting how everything works together for live sound venues.
First - the amount of amazing information you are freely sharing with the world is fantastic - thank you. 1 question - if the show was mono to the PA, would the guitars, vocals, etc... just be a single subgroup?
First saw this a few years back and have been using it ever since. It works so well, even for smaller pub gigs where balancing vocals was always a challenge. My mixer only has 4 sub groups but that's enough most of the time. If I need another, I'll isolate the bass as in most of the gigs I do, the bass sound doesn't vary much. Thanks Dave, you're a legend!
My guitarists like to play loud at the expense of the overall sound. In fact they like to be in the bass zone and as a result we get a little muddy. How do you best get the guitarists onboard with implementing this sort of strategy?
Avoid stage volume is balances when you stand center stage. Move loud speakers farther off stage and point them away from center stage. Far enough away anything loud will be quiet
Never had the gear to work like this but I got a hold of an x32 last year. This is next level stuff for the average club guy. I'm looking forward to getting a handle on this setup. Thanks yet again Dave!
Thanks Behringer for the x32. You can do everything mentioned in this video on it without extra equipment. It is quite affordable and sounds pretty good. Yet having two mics per kick/snare, three channels just for the bass ect. can be cumbersome if you're working with different bands in a club. 🤷🏻♂️
Hmmm, can you setup separate compressors without linking the thresholds on a stereo group on an X32? I have not tried it but that is an issue with many digital consoles. I will try and setup something like this in an X32 when I get a chance and see how far I get
@@DaveRat Yes of course. You just need to select the "Bus Masters" button (it's on the most bottom left) so the left section of the mixer lists all mix busses/sub groups instead of channels. Then you assign whichever group you want to whichever DCA you want the same way you can do channels.
This is really cool. I’m clearly not a live artist or live engineer but basically all of us can use this kind of sub groups or multibus routing to make our workflow easier and accurate in terms of processing signals that are related. But there is a little thing I’ve found many times when mixing or even processing the mix bus, and it’s about linking or not linking the compressor. I unlink a stereo compressor when I want it to make a simple task for me, and it is to balance L&R channel. The example you gave “if I have the L guitar +6dB compared to the R guitar channel” if you link the compressor then it’s going to maintain exactly that +6dB difference between both channels cause in the right moment the +6dB guitar hits the threshold, both sides are gonna be attenuated in the same amount, cause they are linked, on few words, it maintains or keeps almost untouched stereo signal. On the other hand if you unlink the stereo compressor, in that case the most probably thing is that it’s gonna be attenuating only the +6dB guitar channel or gonna be working harder on that channel, so if you compress the right amount, in the end you gonna finish with both balanced channels, L&R gonna be sounding almost equally in amplitude, and because they lost that difference they gonna tend to sound more narrower, more mono, each time any of both guitar channels try to sound a little louder or more dynamic in terms of the guitar player style, the unlinked compressor gonna try to take that difference and make it equal in both sides, being like some kind of strength in the middle that pull both signals towards the center. Or at least this is what I’ve found in my projects. Cheers and thanks for this really good informative video
Linked compressors work ok if you are compressing an entire mix, which is a terrible sounding thing to do. Having an 8ncreaae in the guitar level on the left cause a decrease in the level of the guitar on the right, is usually a bummer and that is what linked compressors do.
Because the loudest sounds turn down all the sounds. So a loud kick will pump the vocals, bass and guitar, a loud bass will smash the drums, vox and guitar down. Everything messes with everything else. Annoying and messy and and all around a last resort when there 9s no other way. Radio stations and mastering labs use multi and compressors that compress differing frequencies differently to reduce the issues of compressing a stereo mix. Stereo mix compression is the heart of what people call the volume wars, where hard limiting makes music sound bad in order to get more overall level
@@DaveRat yeah got what you say. Compressors specially made for mix bus or mastering have a high pass on their detector so they get less sensitive to exactly what you say, bass or kick so you don’t gent that pumping effect that actually sometimes maybe be useful (depending on what you are looking for). But yeah, another good way is the one you say, multiband compression, specially a linear phase multiband compressor so you don’t have any phase issues given by the crossover points between the bands
That VCA trick is really clever. Never thought about that... Now i'm bummed that i can't use that in most cases, i don't exactly have a rack of compressors.. But i'll sure keep this in mind and i should use VCA more.
Awesome video Dave. Wish we had some of today's "toys" when I was playing ( '68-'75 ). We were "revolutionary" because I set up tri-amping ( unusual for a 'one-nighter' band that wasn't actually touring ), and we used solid state amps and mixer from Sunn. Anyway, you are using awesome concepts. I always told our mixing crew that they were as important ( or more so ) than anyone in the band. If they didn't do their job, we wouldn't sound good, no matter how good we were. I do have one curiosity. I would love to hear how you mix the on-stage monitors. Again, thanks for an awesome video.
Oh rad, I’m so excited to try this now. Thanks, Dave! Edit: Wow never looked this up but just realized you were mixing RHCP when I saw them with The Mars Volta at Arco Arena (RIP) for the Stadium Arcadium tour. I was in high school, didn’t know much and as an adhd drummer, was more a fan of Mars Volta than Chili Peppers at the time. But that show, I swear, sounded sooo good that it made me a fan. I was blown away, especially in Arco Arena nosebleeds which famously was a concrete tomb that had a high possibility of washing out a show so to speak. No hyperbole when I say that show sticks out in my memory as unusually amazing sounding haha!
Blast from the past! I myself only came across your channel recently but I did watch this one last year. There is so much information in this video it is impossible to absorb it all in one viewing ... unless you already know it all! 😅👉 Thanks again!
Just discovered your channel today Dave. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and tips! Absolutely amazing resource for an amateur such as myself. I'm just a guitarist in a 4-piece cover band who runs the band sound with a Soundcraft Ui24 while playing (no fun at all trying to do a soundcheck just before a show, where you're the only guitar player!). Honestly, I'll probably never get to apply a lot of your tips as I just don't have the time available pre-gig, but having the background knowledge is still invaluable, so once again...thanks so much! All the best from Brisbane, Australia mate! Cheers, Matt.
I mix on an X32. I watched this video years ago and kind of dismissed it because of lack of resources on the X32. I rethought how I could do with less busses. I set it up using buss 1-6 for monitors, buss 7 for kick and snare, buss 8 for bass, buss 9 & 10 for toms, buss 11 & 12 for guitars. I have stopped using graphic EQs on effects slots a while back because I liked using slots 5-8 for compressors. I am using the 1176 for kick, snare, bass, and tom group. I use the the LA-2 on guitar group and use the LA-2 on inserted directly on each of 2 main vocals (directly to LR buss). Controlling the overall dynamics in the subgroups "glues" everything together very nicely. Also not having the guitar compressors and tom compressors linked increases the stereo width and "movement" in the mix. Also like not getting into the "weeds" with individual channel compression. I put some compression on reverb send on the drums to tame the transient caused by compressing post fader. Being able to change the overall compression and density of the instrument mix with 2 VCAs is a game changer. This is kind of a live sound version of the the Michael Brauer "Brauerizing" technique. Dave you are genius!
I send from the channel but also don't make drastic changes. Assigning the subwoofer aux to the subgroup master DCA will get you pretty good tracking when shifting chanel master DCA vs subgroup master DCA. Or if sending subs from the the group, things will track as well
Thanks Dave for all your vids! They have made me a better engineer. I found your work on large subs super informative. The models were great. I think your reminders of the importance of simplicity and big picture focus are especially cool. I can look back now and laugh at how I perhaps was 'that' micro-manager type guy you spoke of. e.g. It took me 10yrs to learn how to use my effects and another 10 to know WHEN to use them . Again, thanks for your work and shares. I recommend to all jr.(and some senior lol) audio techs.
That was dope thanks! This eliminates so much headache and distraction, but still gives you the freedom to change whatever needs to be adjusted / fine tuned.
Great video Dave. I produce my own music. I'm no live sound engineer and the music I make is mainly electronic although I also play and record guitar and sing. Even for me there is a lot to learn from your videos. I only recently found your channel. It's amazing. 🤟🤟
Seriously love this! Thanks for sharing your approach. If I understand this correctly you are returning your effects back into their corresponding group. Having the pre and post group VCA is a very nice touch and will most certainly be utilizing that in my show file moving forward. Love it!
Hey Dave super video - would love to have heard the results you’re talking about as you explained them. Like an A / B scenario… definitely the cumulative sound as you added the steps into the process. Top notch man
I am going to release a new video on the member side with demo using a track I recorded from a live show. It can't be released publically but is pretty cool
Beginning sound guys please note - mic the ride! As a drummer I can't tell you many shows I've been to where they rely on the overheads (set for the crashes, so useless for the ride) to pick up the ride, and when the drummer switches from the hihat to the ride cymbal the ride pattern vanishes from the mix.
As far as I am concerned, overheads are room mics over the drum set. Mic'ing the drums, cymbals and room. Why live engineers would want to mic the room to re amplify the room sound back into the same room is baffling to me. In the studio I understand why recording a desirable room sound to be reproduced in someone's living room or headphones is desirable. But putting room mics over the drum set for a live show seems less than ideal in all but the best sounding stages and well damped venues.
Great information Dave! I have a 3 piece band and we carry our own sound. The system is compact yet can get extremely loud at times even outdoors, which is most surprising. I mix from stage with a QSC Touchmix 16 digital mixer. I've made great effort to learn everything about it and my system to maximize it's capabilities. But I'm baffled by an issue I hope you've encountered and can shed some light on to help me in my efforts. The mixer offers me the capability of recording all inputs to a solid state drive and then playing them back through the same individual channels. The pickoff point is just after the gain control on each channel and during playback, the recorded sounds are sent back to the mixer at exactly the same point in the channels. This is an incredibly valuable tool that allows me to mix our live sound from FOH to get a balanced overall mix that sounds amazing. Then I save the whole scene. This allows me to setup and go live with little worry in situations allowing little to no time for soundcheck, which are common in some brewpubs we perform in. Here's my question. Why is it that the recorded mix from the drive sounds significantly louder than our live sound played through the exact same channel and master settings on the mixer? For instance, I can record a song and immediately play it back at a venue before showtime. It sounds amazing played back. Yet, via wireless, I can stand out front as we again play the song live, and our FOH volume is noticeably lower. Why? The only thing I can cite is maybe the power demands on the board for phantom power decrease it's capable power to FOH. To me, this shouldn't be the case. Have you experienced this issue? Were you able to minimalize it? It would be very advantageous to be confident our live sound the audience hears is equal to the recorded sound I play back to set up before the other musicians arrive.. Playing inside, it doesn't present a real problem. But playing outside, it could mean carrying supplemental sound gear. We are 3 men in our fifties and wish to keep the physical work within limits when we can. I thank you most sincerely for your time and hope you are able to respond. Thanks Dave!
Hmmm, not sure but what comes out of the console should be identical. Sounds like there is an issue with the playback calibration levels. Perhaps a setting needs to be changed. You should be able to input a time into a channel, recorded it and at it back and the level will be identical So I would look into doing whatever calibration is needed and that should sort it
@@GodzillaGoesGagaThanks for your reply! And you're spot on about an audience absorbing sound. But yes, I'm sure of the volume difference because all comparisons were done before an audience arrived. Thankfully, after considering Dave's reply and still looking in the wrong places for the cause, I realized the answer was right in front of my eyes yet I hadn't seen it. The live level to FOH was being affected by channel gain, EQ settings, effects levels to a degree, make-up gain after compression where applied, channel fader, and finally, master fader plus amp settings at powered FOH cabinets. But the recorded playback levels to FOH were indeed, as Dave suggested, being affected at an additional point in the flow. Each channel's input signal from the solid state hard drive was going through all the same stages as the live signals were, but was also being affected by a 2 track (L&R) playback channel which I was setting at unity, believing that doing so would theoretically send the recorded levels through at the same level as the live channel signals. For whatever reason, this was wrong. The 2 track playback channel fader position was key to matching the live level to the playback level, which I was only able to achieve by cutting at this fader. So Dave was correct. The playback levels WERE being boosted internally until I "calibrated" the overall level by adjusting the additional fader.
Hey this is an excellent approach. Thank you for sharing it’s very smart. Woah you are the sound tools guy! My question is why 0 threshold and not something like -2? With 0 threshold could it ever be distort because too much input level? Or is that already covered with trim?
On analog gear, 0db threshold is the same as -18 on digital gear and is known as "nominal level" on digital plugins that emulate analog gear, they also may use 0db to represent "nominal" Either way, I am using 0db to refer to nominal. Nominal is the line level where what goes in is the same as what comes out. No gain, no attenuation when the console or compressor is set to nominal or unity.
I absolutely love this strategy!! Makes a lot of sense! I'm hobbiest thats been doing live sound (off and on, and only as a side gig) for over 20 years and I'm just now dabbling in digital consoles. I have a Soundcraft UI16, but alas it only has 4 sub groups and zero VCAs. I'm trying to figure out how i would adapt this strategy to my equipment. How would you condense 10 subgroups down to 4? My assumption is to start by going mono for all groups.
13:41 this is why as a live musician you’ve gotta be in good communication with your sound guy. If your plan for the solo was to simply change gain and let him boost your mics, and he was using this plan, you’re not gonna get what you need. Same goes vice versa, if your rig is gonna jump up 10dB outta nowhere and your sound guy doesn’t know about it you’re gonna blow peoples ears off. Communication is key!
Hi Dave. Thanks for all the content you post. You’ve inspired me to try to make a career change into pro audio. Keep rockin’. Can’t wait to see your team back on the Polo Grounds
I've been mixing sound for 40+ years and I just learned something new (apart from being happy that I've held on to a few of my huge analog desks!) Thanks for sharing, keep it up!
Hi Dave, it's the 3d time i watch this video now lols May i ask what attack/release time you set these buss compressors at?! Thanks for the best live mixing school on UA-cam!
Hey Dave! Thanks very much for this awesome tutorial! ❤ I just wondered if you had any thoughts on using a stereo subgroup for kick and snare, and only a mono subgroup for toms, when working on a console with a limited number of groups? I figure it might make sense to prioritise the kick and snare being stereo over the toms, since they are much more fundamental to the mix? Any insights would be much appreciated! Thanks
Thanks for the video man. I am absolutely NOT a "sound guy", I have played and seen a ton of live shows however. I am going to "copy/pasta" (as the kinds say :) ) something here that I commented on another live sound video. The only thing I would add is that this question regards "smaller" venues, between 1000-3000 people where there are "just" two stacks of speakers much like a home stereo system (yeah. I know there are prob sub woofers somewhere but I just wanted to give you a visual, you probably know exactly the type of venue/sound system I am talking about). It is also true for larger venues but it is less noticeable, especially when it is a open air venue, for obvious reasons. Enough preamble, here it is: "Can I ask a question from a consumer perspective? One that is both a musician, have played live in mid size clubs, and have done quite a few recordings, myself and using professional services. Is there a trend in the industry to mix live shows as if nothing existed but kick drums and bass? :) Granted I mostly go to hard rock/metal shows, and not a lot of them, but nevertheless in the past 10 years I've noticed this, and it's getting to the point that I just don't want to go to concerts anymore. Just this year I've been to 4 shows, in 4 different venues, and they were all definitely on the hard rock umbrella but they were VERY different bands. All 4 were exactly the same, it was ALL kick drums and bass and very little to nothing of anything else! I usually like to get as close to the stage as possible, but on the last show, Extreme at Roadrunner in Boston, I purposefully hung back pretty much perfect middle of the venue and it was the same thing, possibly a little worse? It's not only a matter of the actual levels either, although like I said it's all kick drums and bass, but the effective frequencies as well that are all on the lower side. Even when there is a part where the guitar/vocals are playing by themselves (because the song is like that), there is just way too much bass frequencies! They all sound boomy and muddy. It's a true disgrace when Nuno is performing "Flight of the wounded bumble bee" and you can barely make out the notes, for example! So What's going on here? am I going crazy? Is this just a hard rock thing? A Boston thing? I tell ya, it really makes me feel like not going to concerts anymore, if I want to listen to solo'ed tracks I can find them on youtube! :) PS> Sorry, I know it's outside the scope of this video but you seem like a knowledgeable person and I am a curious one! :) "
This was the most inspirational video I watched, at the start of my sound journey 10 years ago and to this day, I still love it. As always Dave, you are a game changer!
It's incredible how much you can learn in 15 minutes. Thanks Dave, amazing video.
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Man, I agree! This is an incredible video!
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The idea that an audience can be in front of one cluster and not always get a true stereo image is not always understood. Love that you touched on that.
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Thanks to videos like yours I've moved up from mixing small clubs, working production, and now the last 4 years touring with National country artists. Thank you Dave for all you do for the community.
Awesome and super cool Christopher!
it's great to read small success stories like this, good for you man!
To add to this, they let me run the board alone now 😊
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Wow. I have been mixing for over 20 years and never thought to do that trick with compression and VCA's.
Awesome and it seems so obvious after you think about it
@@DaveRat It sure does, one of those "how didn't i think about this before". It really is obvious, now.
Every video is like a concentrated dose of YEARS of knowledge and it’s incredibly informative
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I spent 5 minutes trying to find the English translation of his Cyrillic shirt in the outro... just now got it 😂😂
I'm a big fan of your content Mr. Rat, it is truly a joy to watch your videos!!
Fun and thank you
I've been using this exact setup in my live mixing workflow for the past few years and it has revolutionized the way I mix live. Thanks Dave!
Cool cool Tyler!
With all of the fancy digital stuff that's accessible now live, like Snapshots, VST Bridges and so on. It's REALLY valuable to have a resource like this! Simple and logical! Makes total sense, works with all consoles, all the fancy stuff is extra!
Every time you see an audio tutorial video on a white board you know it’s gonna be great!!!
Ha, white board is my last resort
Came across this video on 3rd day of a 10 day festival, where i was struggling with foh mix. It literally saved the festival. amazing advice and channel. A treasure. Thanks Rat 🙏🏻💙
Soo cool!!
I’m not even a sound guy but I still love this channel. Thanks for sharing your wisdom, Dave
Thank you Brandon!
Your 'focusing on the artist' section reminded me of a video where you do an FOH tour, where your console is to your side instead of in front of you. 100% endorsed. When I'm doing a stage at an outdoor folk fest once the mix is stable I love to take my iPad and go sit on the grass with the rest of the audience. It's "normal" but not "natural" to turn the console into a kind of armour that separates you from the show.
Yes and very cool. Greg!
I just started implementing the pre/post DCA’s and I love it! Such a great idea to give more room for creativity at the console. I love when I get to mix as if I’m playing an additional instrument and contributing to the band.
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The pre and post compressor group VCA relationship is amazing and something I had not seen before.
Cool cool and yes, I e not seen it before either
Makes 100% total sense. More of this, please Dave!
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The dual VCA trick is brilliant, thanks so much !
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I have applied this strategy to several different consoles and its become my go-to for probably over 10 years now. Dave is the man! It has given me so much more freedom in my mix as you can spend more time on detailed fx and making it shine!
Awesome!
It’s amazing how different live sound is from studio sound
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This man just giving out free knowledge and wisdom 🙏🏿🙏🏿🙏🏿
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This was very helpful. I just realized my linked subgroup settings was triggering compression on a panned vocal sub group unnecessarily. Super helpful. Thank you !
Awesome!!
I really think that this approach can be used when mixing in the studio as well. Thank you for taking the time to share this with everyone, this is invaluable stuff!
Let me know how it goes!
Wow. I'm wildly impressed. Using this setup immediately.
Awesome let me know how it goes!
EXCELLENT DESCRIPTION OF A EXPERT MIX BRAVO
Cool beans. Everything you laid out makes sense. Makes me laugh though as when I started out mixing the local rock club on Long Island in 1988 or 89 our entire FOH system consisted of a Soundcraft 200B 32x4x2 feeding a Frankenstein PA that consisted of 3-18" EAW top loaded scoops, a single 15" and 2-12" front loaded cabinets and 2-2" JBL horns per side. For outboard gear we had an MXR 1/3 octave EQ, an Ashley compressor, MXR delay and Symmetriz reverb. Good stuff. Every hard rock and heavy metal band at the time came through there. Fun times.
The old times of PA systems is like camping in rough terrain. Fun
This guy is a genius. Please keep putting videos like this out!
Thank you Justin!!
As someone trying to learn mixing tracks in a DAW, this is such an eyeopener and a really useful reminder of the realities I am trying to reflect in a digital space. Thank you.
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I don't normally comment but had to on this one. Been setting up my mixes just like this for 35+ years. Minus all the stereo imaging. Ever since I got my first compressor. Didn't have enough compressors for each vocal or instrument so the solution was subgroups. Over time, it evolved into an "auto mix" method.
Same with the DCA's. Most don't understand or think about the difference of a DCA on a channel vs a DCA on the group (in regards to group compression). Great video Dave. It's like getting a validation.
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LOVE your approach to setting up the board and routing, DAMN! Thank you for sharing.
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Magic! Seriously though, this is so really great information for young folks mixing. It's nice to see professionals sharing.
I appreciate that!
You're a living legend Dave, I learn a lot from you
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Valeu!
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Dude! this is such a simple but fantastic technique. Thanks for sharing Dave!
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This makes totally sense! And it's kind of a loundness levels automation. Great work, Dave! :)
Rhcp is my fav band, thanks dave!
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i love that you said "one of the secrets" i wanna hear them all!!
i'd love to see a video on how u use the attack/release time on those group comps :)
I started trying to apply the mix strategy to an X32 and it's a learning curve but got working ok. The attack and release times vary depending on the compressor used. I will try an do a video on how to determine the attack and release times.
@@DaveRat it would be really great for me at this time, im getting back to work after these years of pandemic, and i will get a Midas 32 as a work base.
Im now refreshing my knowledge, preparing my come back for the next weekend :) TY Dave!
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Thank you Mr Rat. My dream come true I always wanted to learn from a pro what you teach. I’ll be able to record myself properly now.
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I watched the original version of this video years ago...thanks for sharing Mr. Rat....you rock !!
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Man this is amazing. Just started exploring groups and DCAs lately so this is perfect timing to think logically on how to use them
I think I just found my new cubase template. Now I can finally focus on composing. You won't believe the mess Ive been making with vca's groups and sends. This makes so much sense. Thank you. Very grateful.
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WoW. What a great video. Thank you very much sir. The knowledge that you are giving is priceless. Thank you again Sir.❤❤❤
The VCA tip is so brilliant !
Awesome!
How cool to have an instant dynamic range control across the whole mix with the VCA pre and post groups...
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The 2 VCA's are a very good idea !!!
Thx for sharing, it helps!
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Just wanna say thank you, Dave! Cheers from Brazil.
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Wow! This makes so much sense...Very cool! One irony I would point out to this video is that your UA-cam audio leaves a lot to be desired here. I had trouble understanding a lot of what you were saying some of the time and had to jack my computer audio, but you can easily be forgiven. U RoK!
Yeah, it took me quite a while to dial in the audio for my vids. I 2as just doing them spur of the moment thought shares
thank u bro 👊
huge guy, very deep inside look, one love ❤️
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Thank for this very detailed explanation of complicated sound routing and explanations of your sound mixing strategies. The white board was very helpful to visualize a complicated system. It’s very interesting how everything works together for live sound venues.
Super cool thank you Matt!
Man, thanks for all the videos. We just got an x32/s16 and I'm trying to figure it all out and your videos have been a great help.
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First - the amount of amazing information you are freely sharing with the world is fantastic - thank you. 1 question - if the show was mono to the PA, would the guitars, vocals, etc... just be a single subgroup?
Great idea I used to do this for a living as well and never had these.. good info
Thank you Brian!
First saw this a few years back and have been using it ever since. It works so well, even for smaller pub gigs where balancing vocals was always a challenge. My mixer only has 4 sub groups but that's enough most of the time. If I need another, I'll isolate the bass as in most of the gigs I do, the bass sound doesn't vary much.
Thanks Dave, you're a legend!
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My guitarists like to play loud at the expense of the overall sound. In fact they like to be in the bass zone and as a result we get a little muddy. How do you best get the guitarists onboard with implementing this sort of strategy?
Avoid stage volume is balances when you stand center stage. Move loud speakers farther off stage and point them away from center stage. Far enough away anything loud will be quiet
In small consoles or limited groups i have used a Group for the Band and the other for Vocals and getting good results.
👍 cool cool
I mostly produce electronic music but this still has been very insightful! Thanks for sharing!
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Never had the gear to work like this but I got a hold of an x32 last year. This is next level stuff for the average club guy. I'm looking forward to getting a handle on this setup. Thanks yet again Dave!
Thanks Behringer for the x32. You can do everything mentioned in this video on it without extra equipment. It is quite affordable and sounds pretty good. Yet having two mics per kick/snare, three channels just for the bass ect. can be cumbersome if you're working with different bands in a club. 🤷🏻♂️
Hmmm, can you setup separate compressors without linking the thresholds on a stereo group on an X32? I have not tried it but that is an issue with many digital consoles.
I will try and setup something like this in an X32 when I get a chance and see how far I get
@@DaveRat Looks like it’s possible if inserting a compressor from the effects rack. From the channel strip, no.
Also, can you assign groups to DCAs?
@@DaveRat Yes of course. You just need to select the "Bus Masters" button (it's on the most bottom left) so the left section of the mixer lists all mix busses/sub groups instead of channels. Then you assign whichever group you want to whichever DCA you want the same way you can do channels.
This is really cool. I’m clearly not a live artist or live engineer but basically all of us can use this kind of sub groups or multibus routing to make our workflow easier and accurate in terms of processing signals that are related. But there is a little thing I’ve found many times when mixing or even processing the mix bus, and it’s about linking or not linking the compressor. I unlink a stereo compressor when I want it to make a simple task for me, and it is to balance L&R channel. The example you gave “if I have the L guitar +6dB compared to the R guitar channel” if you link the compressor then it’s going to maintain exactly that +6dB difference between both channels cause in the right moment the +6dB guitar hits the threshold, both sides are gonna be attenuated in the same amount, cause they are linked, on few words, it maintains or keeps almost untouched stereo signal. On the other hand if you unlink the stereo compressor, in that case the most probably thing is that it’s gonna be attenuating only the +6dB guitar channel or gonna be working harder on that channel, so if you compress the right amount, in the end you gonna finish with both balanced channels, L&R gonna be sounding almost equally in amplitude, and because they lost that difference they gonna tend to sound more narrower, more mono, each time any of both guitar channels try to sound a little louder or more dynamic in terms of the guitar player style, the unlinked compressor gonna try to take that difference and make it equal in both sides, being like some kind of strength in the middle that pull both signals towards the center. Or at least this is what I’ve found in my projects. Cheers and thanks for this really good informative video
Linked compressors work ok if you are compressing an entire mix, which is a terrible sounding thing to do. Having an 8ncreaae in the guitar level on the left cause a decrease in the level of the guitar on the right, is usually a bummer and that is what linked compressors do.
@@DaveRat it’s curious but why do you think that is a terrible sounding thing to put a bus compressor or a mastering compressor on an entire mix?
Because the loudest sounds turn down all the sounds. So a loud kick will pump the vocals, bass and guitar, a loud bass will smash the drums, vox and guitar down.
Everything messes with everything else. Annoying and messy and and all around a last resort when there 9s no other way.
Radio stations and mastering labs use multi and compressors that compress differing frequencies differently to reduce the issues of compressing a stereo mix.
Stereo mix compression is the heart of what people call the volume wars, where hard limiting makes music sound bad in order to get more overall level
@@DaveRat yeah got what you say. Compressors specially made for mix bus or mastering have a high pass on their detector so they get less sensitive to exactly what you say, bass or kick so you don’t gent that pumping effect that actually sometimes maybe be useful (depending on what you are looking for). But yeah, another good way is the one you say, multiband compression, specially a linear phase multiband compressor so you don’t have any phase issues given by the crossover points between the bands
Yep, people jump through a lot of hoops to try and make mix compression sound less bad.
That VCA trick is really clever. Never thought about that... Now i'm bummed that i can't use that in most cases, i don't exactly have a rack of compressors.. But i'll sure keep this in mind and i should use VCA more.
Love ya Dave! You always answer questions you didn't know I had!
Awesome!
Awesome video Dave. Wish we had some of today's "toys" when I was playing ( '68-'75 ). We were "revolutionary" because I set up tri-amping ( unusual for a 'one-nighter' band that wasn't actually touring ), and we used solid state amps and mixer from Sunn. Anyway, you are using awesome concepts. I always told our mixing crew that they were as important ( or more so ) than anyone in the band. If they didn't do their job, we wouldn't sound good, no matter how good we were. I do have one curiosity. I would love to hear how you mix the on-stage monitors. Again, thanks for an awesome video.
Thank you and cool Joe, I will ponder doing some monitor videos
Very educational. You obviously have a wealth of experience and a big thanks for sharing.
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Oh rad, I’m so excited to try this now. Thanks, Dave!
Edit: Wow never looked this up but just realized you were mixing RHCP when I saw them with The Mars Volta at Arco Arena (RIP) for the Stadium Arcadium tour. I was in high school, didn’t know much and as an adhd drummer, was more a fan of Mars Volta than Chili Peppers at the time. But that show, I swear, sounded sooo good that it made me a fan. I was blown away, especially in Arco Arena nosebleeds which famously was a concrete tomb that had a high possibility of washing out a show so to speak. No hyperbole when I say that show sticks out in my memory as unusually amazing sounding haha!
Soo cool and thank you!!
That was wonderful, thank you. :) P.S. Loved the London show the other week!
Well, I stopped touring a while back and glad ya like the vid
Blast from the past! I myself only came across your channel recently but I did watch this one last year. There is so much information in this video it is impossible to absorb it all in one viewing ... unless you already know it all! 😅👉 Thanks again!
Thank you Haze!
Your VCA group idea is genius
Awesome and thank you!
Just discovered your channel today Dave. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and tips! Absolutely amazing resource for an amateur such as myself. I'm just a guitarist in a 4-piece cover band who runs the band sound with a Soundcraft Ui24 while playing (no fun at all trying to do a soundcheck just before a show, where you're the only guitar player!).
Honestly, I'll probably never get to apply a lot of your tips as I just don't have the time available pre-gig, but having the background knowledge is still invaluable, so once again...thanks so much!
All the best from Brisbane, Australia mate!
Cheers,
Matt.
all of this makes perfect sense in seems to be very helpful and manageable and applied immediately thanks for the discussion Dave
Awesome!
This is pure gold! Thank you so for for sharing!!
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I mix on an X32. I watched this video years ago and kind of dismissed it because of lack of resources on the X32. I rethought how I could do with less busses. I set it up using buss 1-6 for monitors, buss 7 for kick and snare, buss 8 for bass, buss 9 & 10 for toms, buss 11 & 12 for guitars. I have stopped using graphic EQs on effects slots a while back because I liked using slots 5-8 for compressors. I am using the 1176 for kick, snare, bass, and tom group. I use the the LA-2 on guitar group and use the LA-2 on inserted directly on each of 2 main vocals (directly to LR buss). Controlling the overall dynamics in the subgroups "glues" everything together very nicely. Also not having the guitar compressors and tom compressors linked increases the stereo width and "movement" in the mix. Also like not getting into the "weeds" with individual channel compression. I put some compression on reverb send on the drums to tame the transient caused by compressing post fader. Being able to change the overall compression and density of the instrument mix with 2 VCAs is a game changer. This is kind of a live sound version of the the Michael Brauer "Brauerizing" technique. Dave you are genius!
Perfect and very cool
Question Dave: When you are using a Sub Buss how would you send it considering this VCA strategy?
I send from the channel but also don't make drastic changes.
Assigning the subwoofer aux to the subgroup master DCA will get you pretty good tracking when shifting chanel master DCA vs subgroup master DCA.
Or if sending subs from the the group, things will track as well
Excellent overview with enough detail and examples to be useful in multiple scenarios.
Thanks so much for sharing your experience
Cool cool Tom!
Thanks Dave for all your vids! They have made me a better engineer. I found your work on large subs super informative. The models were great.
I think your reminders of the importance of simplicity and big picture focus are especially cool. I can look back now and laugh at how I perhaps was 'that' micro-manager type guy you spoke of. e.g. It took me 10yrs to learn how to use my effects and another 10 to know WHEN to use them .
Again, thanks for your work and shares. I recommend to all jr.(and some senior lol) audio techs.
Super cool thank you Steven!
That was dope thanks! This eliminates so much headache and distraction, but still gives you the freedom to change whatever needs to be adjusted / fine tuned.
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Great and very informative video. Your approach to mixing live bands makes so much sense.
Keep up the the great lessons I really appreciate it.
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Great video Dave. I produce my own music. I'm no live sound engineer and the music I make is mainly electronic although I also play and record guitar and sing. Even for me there is a lot to learn from your videos. I only recently found your channel. It's amazing.
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Cool cool and thanks for hanging out Tommy!
Seriously love this! Thanks for sharing your approach. If I understand this correctly you are returning your effects back into their corresponding group. Having the pre and post group VCA is a very nice touch and will most certainly be utilizing that in my show file moving forward. Love it!
Yes, effect back to the groups of the effected instruments. And lete know how it goes for ya
This is brilliant, I’ll be using this strategy
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Hey Dave super video - would love to have heard the results you’re talking about as you explained them. Like an A / B scenario… definitely the cumulative sound as you added the steps into the process. Top notch man
I am going to release a new video on the member side with demo using a track I recorded from a live show. It can't be released publically but is pretty cool
That VCA trick - amazing!
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Beginning sound guys please note - mic the ride! As a drummer I can't tell you many shows I've been to where they rely on the overheads (set for the crashes, so useless for the ride) to pick up the ride, and when the drummer switches from the hihat to the ride cymbal the ride pattern vanishes from the mix.
As far as I am concerned, overheads are room mics over the drum set.
Mic'ing the drums, cymbals and room.
Why live engineers would want to mic the room to re amplify the room sound back into the same room is baffling to me.
In the studio I understand why recording a desirable room sound to be reproduced in someone's living room or headphones is desirable.
But putting room mics over the drum set for a live show seems less than ideal in all but the best sounding stages and well damped venues.
Great information Dave!
I have a 3 piece band and we carry our own sound. The system is compact yet can get extremely loud at times even outdoors, which is most surprising. I mix from stage with a QSC Touchmix 16 digital mixer. I've made great effort to learn everything about it and my system to maximize it's capabilities. But I'm baffled by an issue I hope you've encountered and can shed some light on to help me in my efforts.
The mixer offers me the capability of recording all inputs to a solid state drive and then playing them back through the same individual channels. The pickoff point is just after the gain control on each channel and during playback, the recorded sounds are sent back to the mixer at exactly the same point in the channels. This is an incredibly valuable tool that allows me to mix our live sound from FOH to get a balanced overall mix that sounds amazing. Then I save the whole scene. This allows me to setup and go live with little worry in situations allowing little to no time for soundcheck, which are common in some brewpubs we perform in.
Here's my question. Why is it that the recorded mix from the drive sounds significantly louder than our live sound played through the exact same channel and master settings on the mixer?
For instance, I can record a song and immediately play it back at a venue before showtime. It sounds amazing played back. Yet, via wireless, I can stand out front as we again play the song live, and our FOH volume is noticeably lower. Why?
The only thing I can cite is maybe the power demands on the board for phantom power decrease it's capable power to FOH. To me, this shouldn't be the case.
Have you experienced this issue?
Were you able to minimalize it? It would be very advantageous to be confident our live sound the audience hears is equal to the recorded sound I play back to set up before the other musicians arrive..
Playing inside, it doesn't present a real problem. But playing outside, it could mean carrying supplemental sound gear. We are 3 men in our fifties and wish to keep the physical work within limits when we can.
I thank you most sincerely for your time and hope you are able to respond.
Thanks Dave!
Hmmm, not sure but what comes out of the console should be identical. Sounds like there is an issue with the playback calibration levels.
Perhaps a setting needs to be changed.
You should be able to input a time into a channel, recorded it and at it back and the level will be identical
So I would look into doing whatever calibration is needed and that should sort it
Are you sure it's quieter at the speakers. An audience is a good sonic absorbing material!
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@@GodzillaGoesGagaThanks for your reply! And you're spot on about an audience absorbing sound.
But yes, I'm sure of the volume difference because all comparisons were done before an audience arrived.
Thankfully, after considering Dave's reply and still looking in the wrong places for the cause, I realized the answer was right in front of my eyes yet I hadn't seen it.
The live level to FOH was being affected by channel gain, EQ settings, effects levels to a degree, make-up gain after compression where applied, channel fader, and finally, master fader plus amp settings at powered FOH cabinets.
But the recorded playback levels to FOH were indeed, as Dave suggested, being affected at an additional point in the flow.
Each channel's input signal from the solid state hard drive was going through all the same stages as the live signals were, but was also being affected by a 2 track (L&R) playback channel which I was setting at unity, believing that doing so would theoretically send the recorded levels through at the same level as the live channel signals.
For whatever reason, this was wrong. The 2 track playback channel fader position was key to matching the live level to the playback level, which I was only able to achieve by cutting at this fader.
So Dave was correct. The playback levels WERE being boosted internally until I "calibrated" the overall level by adjusting the additional fader.
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Amazing breakdown, very efficient for studio mixing as well.
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Hey this is an excellent approach. Thank you for sharing it’s very smart. Woah you are the sound tools guy! My question is why 0 threshold and not something like -2? With 0 threshold could it ever be distort because too much input level? Or is that already covered with trim?
On analog gear, 0db threshold is the same as -18 on digital gear and is known as "nominal level"
on digital plugins that emulate analog gear, they also may use 0db to represent "nominal"
Either way, I am using 0db to refer to nominal. Nominal is the line level where what goes in is the same as what comes out. No gain, no attenuation when the console or compressor is set to nominal or unity.
I absolutely love this strategy!! Makes a lot of sense! I'm hobbiest thats been doing live sound (off and on, and only as a side gig) for over 20 years and I'm just now dabbling in digital consoles. I have a Soundcraft UI16, but alas it only has 4 sub groups and zero VCAs. I'm trying to figure out how i would adapt this strategy to my equipment.
How would you condense 10 subgroups down to 4? My assumption is to start by going mono for all groups.
Yeah mono groups and if you have a matrix, use L and R as groups and run mains from 2 matrix, that will give ya 6
I wish I had this available when I was learning back in 03-07.
This was amazing - thanks for the lesson!
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Thank You so much for this video ! Brilliant 😎
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13:41 this is why as a live musician you’ve gotta be in good communication with your sound guy. If your plan for the solo was to simply change gain and let him boost your mics, and he was using this plan, you’re not gonna get what you need. Same goes vice versa, if your rig is gonna jump up 10dB outta nowhere and your sound guy doesn’t know about it you’re gonna blow peoples ears off.
Communication is key!
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Hi Dave. Thanks for all the content you post. You’ve inspired me to try to make a career change into pro audio. Keep rockin’. Can’t wait to see your team back on the Polo Grounds
Welcome and very cool!
I've been mixing sound for 40+ years and I just learned something new (apart from being happy that I've held on to a few of my huge analog desks!) Thanks for sharing, keep it up!
Awesome!
Hi Dave, it's the 3d time i watch this video now lols
May i ask what attack/release time you set these buss compressors at?!
Thanks for the best live mixing school on UA-cam!
Hmm, it varies a bit depending on the compressor.
I did a vid on the member side where I show the setup on x32
Hey Dave! Thanks very much for this awesome tutorial! ❤ I just wondered if you had any thoughts on using a stereo subgroup for kick and snare, and only a mono subgroup for toms, when working on a console with a limited number of groups? I figure it might make sense to prioritise the kick and snare being stereo over the toms, since they are much more fundamental to the mix? Any insights would be much appreciated! Thanks
Toms are often panned stereo so use a stereo group. K and S can be mono
Thank you, amazing video .One question are you sending both individual channels and subgroup to the mains or just the subgroups?
I never send channels to mains unless I run out of subgroups.
In which case I use the mains as subgroups and use matrix as mains.
Perfect thank you
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Dave you are a wealth of knowledge. Thank you so much.
Thank you Cheezy!
Super interesting and helpful, thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts 👏
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Thanks Dave! Learning how to do it bigger and this helps
Excellent !!!
Thanks for the video man. I am absolutely NOT a "sound guy", I have played and seen a ton of live shows however. I am going to "copy/pasta" (as the kinds say :) ) something here that I commented on another live sound video. The only thing I would add is that this question regards "smaller" venues, between 1000-3000 people where there are "just" two stacks of speakers much like a home stereo system (yeah. I know there are prob sub woofers somewhere but I just wanted to give you a visual, you probably know exactly the type of venue/sound system I am talking about). It is also true for larger venues but it is less noticeable, especially when it is a open air venue, for obvious reasons.
Enough preamble, here it is:
"Can I ask a question from a consumer perspective? One that is both a musician, have played live in mid size clubs, and have done quite a few recordings, myself and using professional services.
Is there a trend in the industry to mix live shows as if nothing existed but kick drums and bass? :)
Granted I mostly go to hard rock/metal shows, and not a lot of them, but nevertheless in the past 10 years I've noticed this, and it's getting to the point that I just don't want to go to concerts anymore.
Just this year I've been to 4 shows, in 4 different venues, and they were all definitely on the hard rock umbrella but they were VERY different bands.
All 4 were exactly the same, it was ALL kick drums and bass and very little to nothing of anything else! I usually like to get as close to the stage as possible, but on the last show, Extreme at Roadrunner in Boston, I purposefully hung back pretty much perfect middle of the venue and it was the same thing, possibly a little worse?
It's not only a matter of the actual levels either, although like I said it's all kick drums and bass, but the effective frequencies as well that are all on the lower side. Even when there is a part where the guitar/vocals are playing by themselves (because the song is like that), there is just way too much bass frequencies! They all sound boomy and muddy. It's a true disgrace when Nuno is performing "Flight of the wounded bumble bee" and you can barely make out the notes, for example!
So What's going on here? am I going crazy? Is this just a hard rock thing? A Boston thing?
I tell ya, it really makes me feel like not going to concerts anymore, if I want to listen to solo'ed tracks I can find them on youtube! :)
PS> Sorry, I know it's outside the scope of this video but you seem like a knowledgeable person and I am a curious one! :) "
Wow, thanks for sharing your knowledge, Dave!
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Super helpful Dave. The insight about not linking guitars is brilliant. Thanks a million! BTW Love the Giraffe painting.
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This was the most inspirational video I watched, at the start of my sound journey 10 years ago and to this day, I still love it.
As always Dave, you are a game changer!
Awesome and thank you!
thank you mr dave for sharing this mixing knowledge. I am a follower of his and I love to see his videos. Greetings from Venezuela
Thank you Carlos!
Amazing i just found your channel a few weeks ago. We have to train our own production crews. Your videos are going to assist with this. Thank you.
Super cool!
From France Thank you ! So cool and smart
Thank you F J! And love France! Was there a few months ago in the South, Bordeaux and Biarritz
Can't wait to be back there!
Great info. Makes so much sense. Thx
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Lovely stuff!! Thanks for sharing.
🔧👍🔧 thank you
Thank you very much for sharing your wisdom!
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