Normally at festivals, we don’t have time for sound checks. It’s just a line check and set monitor levels. The key to this is getting the gain settings right. Then you can look at the faders and set them up visually, based on experience. You can always start with things like guitar and bass a bit lower in the mix as they make their own noise as well. I have found that 99% of the time it will sound good right from the first song. Then you can spend a bit of time tweaking it to optimum.
How you begin ? you tear down complete all faders, then you look your gain staging, and whish faders first you bring up when the show starts ? Vocals and guitar first den Kick and bass ? It is my worst nightmare to not get it right when i can not have a proper soundcheck.....the guiltyness what i feel when the sound dont show up right, triggers my sadness from being bullied in the childhood......hope i did explain it right...😅
Sort of. When I mixed chili peppers they rarely sound checked. We would do entire tour legs without band members checking. I have to develop strategies to get great sound in the first song with and without checks.
Heck yeah its so encouraging to hear you talk about sound check like this! Validates my desire to encourage the bands to play and get comfortable in sound check🎉 The way we've settled into doing things is line checks are before the band even shows up, just for setting our gain structure at our pres and ringing out monitors and general simple monitor mixes, so when the band shows up they can immediately start playing and we can do exactly this! Spend the whole sound check with them playing whole songs🎉 My other favorite last thing to do in a FOH mix is, after doing all the pairing mics together and checking relationships and mic placements and all that jazz, is to pull all my faders down to zero and remix but do it like I'm mixing an album, start with lead vocal (main tonal component), then that informs snare placement (loudest transient element in same range) which informs kick level, which informs bass level, which gives keys/gtr levels, which informs bgv levels, and if you've done it right, the volumes and fader positions should still be supporting the lead vocal well. I always think about it like the last final check to make sure all the components of the orchestra are balanced🎉
I read an interview with Big Mick a long time ago where he mentioned that he always gets the vocals right first and leaves them on while he checks everything else. That lit a lightbulb for me, and I always do that now when I am dialing up a mix. Really helps me get to the final product faster.
Big makes a great engineer and a cool guy as well. And yes the techniques used by someone who constantly gets great mixes are definitely something to pay attention to
Also, You don't need artists to get vocal mics at least kinda right in the monitors. If the vocalist walks up and can hear them self right away, your good vibes start flowing that much quicker.
Perfect and that's the way to do it. Tailor the soundcheck method for the situation to get the most done and the most info in the least amount of time with the most amount of happiness
This is one of the more validating live mixing strategies i've ever heard, thank you! This has proven more successful and gotten me more praise from the bands im mixing than anything i've ever tried. Smooth as silk 🤙
I do very quick linecheck, something like 8 kick hits just to set the levels and check if there is anything monumentally wrong. I resident in a local club, each night has 3-4 bands so it is always a bit hectic. The shorter i can do them.. I focus first on the stage sound, so that the musicians have a good balance as that affects absolutely everything downstream. The last thing i want is when doing room sound is to have a guitar player start messing with their amp levels. So, they spend minimum amount of time doing technical stuff and maximum amount of time playing. Sound check really sets the mood for the whole evening, so i try to be positive and keep it light. And if everything is fine after just two songs, i'll let them go sooner than later, that always seem to get their morale up. I do have the luxury of being in the same room with same gear, with all my own settings.. I know what they want before they ask for it. That really has been great experience which i definitely recommend even if the pay isn't great, but just having everything the same but the bands, i've learned so much in the last two years. Even if you have to do it for free the experience is in this case worth it.
LOVE these vids Dave and THANK YOU so much for taking the time to do them!!! I always tried to give the performers the best they had to put out there to their audiences and pretty much ran with what I knew going into a show, and made the tweaking adjustments to them to make them as good as was possible. I did a lot of festival work and wasn't given the luxury of having a good sound check timeline...made sure they had the monitors they wanted and adjusted as I went along. One time I had a guitarist jump off the stage and come out front to see how it was out front and he melted...gave me kudos and huge hugs after the gig.~Chris
I'm a fairly inexperienced sound engineer and this both made me feel validated in what I've been doing so far and helped me learn a bunch of new, helpful things, thank you very much! I wholeheartedly agree on skipping sources that don't work during line check and moving on to the next thing. I once mixed a show where, because I was unfamiliar with a quirk of the console I was on, I had all the channels that should have come from the stagebox patched to the local inputs. Moving on to the next channel helped me quickly realize that the individual channel was not the issue, which greatly sped up troubleshooting. Later on, the overhead mic didn't work for whatever reason. I moved on and realized it really wasn't needed for that mix in that small space and I saved myself that time and effort I would have otherwise pretty much wasted (sure, having that mic would have been nice, but it was fine without it).
I just did a soundcheck like this at my last concert and it was so refreshing to have soundcheck done in 30 minutes, without the hassle to listen to each drumkit element for ages. Also, more time to play before the show gets us warmed up and makes for a better performance!
Super cool and agreed I have more fun doing it this way and can't stand individual instrument checks unless something's broken or hunting down a rattle
Very interesting, thanks Dave. We have a soundcheck song that has a little bit of everything, and it's always worked better than just waiting while someone goes around the kit. Plus it's handy for those times when you have to hit the ground running.
The Live sound check has always been my favorite method, and in my experience is (exactly as you said) the most effective method to get the band comfortable and ready for the show.
Thanks for the tips! One thing I do is get the lead vocal mics dialed in first since they are the ones connecting with the audience. This really helps especially if we are running behind.
I think a lot of sound humans get into the flow of one mic, one source because it's the undisputed speed champ for the kind of sweaty dive bar gigs most of us have started with, where you're running FOH and Mons at the same time and have barely ten minutes to work with because the band was late and and and.... Frustratingly I've found that the bigger shows I've mixed have been exponentially easier than the crap underpaid slogging I've started. Pro bands show up on time with gear they know, and pro musicians know what they need in their monitors to perform. Having an A2 or even a dedicated monitor master makes mixing a breeze compared to sprinting all over the stage yourself. It's very difficult to drop habits formed in the heat of battle, despite the mindsets from "combat audio" not often carrying over to "big boy gigs". It's always helpful to examine one's biases and habits to try to keep what's useful and drop what's not. Another great video, thanks Dave!
Thank you and I also believe the one mic one channel thing comes from the studio habits. Where cross-bleed between various instruments tends not to be an issue because they're recording in ISO booths jor only one instrument at a time. The baseline for a sound checking line check for live shows should be completely different than that for the studio. If you have unlimited amounts of time then of course listen to one mie one instrument will provide some information. But the one mic multiple instruments and multiple mics one instrument scenarios are truly where we get the most valuable info
Super cool and yeah we kind of spend our lives drooling over getting sound checks and when I finally had all the sound checks I wanted, I realized it's better to sound check more like the way I did when I was in a rush and didn't have any time. More informative, faster easier and less stress with a better outcome
Dave, LOVE and appreciate all you do for us sound humans! Just did a wedding gig last night - literally no time for a check, band showed up right before show time, just "Here's the band, deal with it!" I think we've all done that gig before; my advice is: come prepared! Have some sort of scene ready to go, and do your homework!
We call that Tentoninus: the band shows up at ten to nine!😂 I check similarly. I’ll go online and watch their videos if I have no stage plot or input list. Get an idea what they do, sound like, input list. Either modify an existing mix file (digital) and pull all the faders and monitor sends and tell them to start playing. Processing and labeling is already done. I push faders. Or in monitors, I ring out the vocals before they get there so it’s clean, no feedback or overtones. They walk up to the mic and say “tgat sounds amazing. Can I have a little of the other vocals?” Then play a song. Start jamming. I push faders up and quickly build a mix with most right around minus 5. Adjusting input gains at the same time. Boom. Add in the pre arranged vocal delay slap and drum verb. Then fix any issues. Done in 2 songs. Really in one, but fine tuned in 2. No beating on drums one at a time and driving the audience out of the bar. We don’t get sound checks at festivals so it’s in a cue wedge or phones while Mr monitor goes through that process on stage. I listen to him Speak requests to the band and then I know who’s gonna play what. Dial input gain. Unmute and go. Sounds like a record everytime!
@@MrRioting Yeah, when we get no info, we have to turn to the net to get some sort of sense of what to expect. Horns? Lots of Keys? 10 vocals? Two drummers? We can handle ANYTHING, just let us be prepared!
As someone who is punting 99% of the time, I tend to do a combination of these techniques. A single mic run through from the bottom to top really makes monitors a more organized process, but I leave each mic on as we progress through the input list. The band will usually noodle about as things start to come online and this enables progressive comparison of drums vs bass, bass vs guitar as Dave noted.
What you are alluding to…..is to have an overall strategy before any fader comes up. Thats critically important and to think it all through and get your troubleshooting scenarios through….excellent message. And all that happens before you’re even in the venue. One of my favorites is mic selection and minimization and it’s always the acoustic drums that require most of the attention. I’ve been working on a 3 mic sorta Glyn Johns thing live and the kick has to punch the room but the other two sorta sugar coat the room. I love the mic selection and eq/gate game…in my opinion, that is where good decisions lead to very minimal troubleshooting.
This is also key at small venues but I actually start with getting the vocal mic in the monitors and FOH. It avoids the volume creep on stage and gets the band to playing songs quickly because they can actually hear the vocal. Avoiding the one mic, one instrument thing also stops the band from getting bored waiting around. If I have time I'll tell the band to get a beer and I'll do a line check by myself with an iPad and get the monitors roughly right before the band steps on stage to practice songs
Amen! Play a song. The best way in my humble opinion. Just finished up a blue's festival this weekend. Never heard any of the bands and mixed everything from FOH and did the stage transitions. After over 50 years in the bizz I pulled it off with God's grace. You just need to know your gear and treat the players with respect and ask for patience! ❤
I like it. I will typically do a line check before the band shows up just to make sure things are working and I have a signal. When the band shows up, I do just as you describe, having them jump right in to rehearsal and doing my thing while they do theirs.
I have a lot of respect for your experience, Mr. Dave, but to properly soundcheck (I do line check before the band arrives), I need to follow these steps: 1. set the proper gain on the console for each instrument, 2. set pre-fader sends (possibly with splitted channels) to nominal levels for each artist, but just for their own instrument, so that, while I move on, they can play their own instrument and set the proper listening level on their own bodypack, 3. build the mix for each artist in relation to their own instrument, which means: artist A must play its own instrument while I 'm adding artist B to his mix. They must compare other instruments to their own, not viceversa. This ens up usually with 1:-10 ratio between artist A's instrument and the others. 4. rehearse and refine the mix for each artist, 5. rehearse and refine the mix for the PA. At the end, I do what you describe at the 5th point, my goal is to raise the PA, when the first feedback occurs, of 10 dB.
Interesting and useful and for me I do all of those things and just avoid the somewhat time wasting and minimally useful practice of getting a musician or stage tech to sit there and play an instrument by itself. The issue is that rarely if ever is the signal from an instrument played by itself the same or relevant compared to how the instrument is played when the rest of the band is playing. Unless there are parts of the show where the instrument is played by itself then sound checking with that instrument played by itself is not very useful it's just a time waster
Very good info, I always explain to my band members that they have to keep playing something for sound check and not just do like 5-10 seconds. As someone interested in mixing I sometimes wish I could replace musicians with prerecorded stems :D
I have tried skinning this cat a lot of different ways. For the last 18 or so years, my process has been: 1. Unmute everything. 2. Quick line check of each channel one by one, to set the gain and get very rough EQ/compression set (no more than 5 minutes total). 3. Get the band to play one loud song and get the mix roughly dialled in at FOH. 4. Do a 1st monitors round. 5. Set them free to rehearse and then start refining my mix. 6. Give them the option to do another monitors round a bit later if things aren't perfect or they didn't know what they needed the first time round. It works pretty well for me.
Hmmm, I don't think I have any videos of me doing a sound check and haven't really been interested in mixing anymore. There may be a time when I take on mixing another band. The only thing that sounds interesting to me to mix would be like a bluegrass band and a field for the bunch of cool homemade instruments
Hi Dave I would love to hear you do sound for my small wedding band, EV ETX pa and AH qu mixer, or any small band similar. If you go to a wedding yourself and you hear the band with maybe not the best sound are you itching to go up and tweak it right 😅
Hmmm, I used to want to jump in and fix all the stuff. But now I'm more observational and tend to let things be as they are and don't feel the urge to be the hero. Except if it's catastrophic and an intervention is important and necessary in some way. I let nature take its path even if the path may be less than optimal in my opinion but if I see a bird caught in fishing line, I will try and free it.
I tend to do a quick line check with a general EQ of the various elements and then do the live with all mics and instruments to do a full check. Doing the quick line check helps me identify any bad patching or bad lines. However, I do prefer to do all mics/instruments as you described in the last portion of the video.
When I soundcheck I always start with the drums. Kick, snare, hihat, toms, then the overheads during the drum total. The reason I work this way is because I always mix in the same venue with a capacity of 110 people. Snare, hi hat and cymbals are usually loud enough to not need any PA, so I try to mix to the loudest acoustic instrument, add some kick and toms to the mix and bring the rest up to that level. This also means that I let the git amps do 70% of the work, and add the rest with PA. When the band does a few songs I will try to perfect the mix and level the monitors, which I usually do by adding a bit, the walk around on stage to listen on the places where the musicians will be. When I mix at an outdoor festival ( which is not often, but sometimes) I do things a little different, but I generally fall back on what I'm comfortable with, though I try to always experiment to get the best possible mix for both audience and band.
When I've had extra time for sound check, one thing I've done prior to these combos is mute and unmute across the board to check what's bleeding where. Sometimes this info can be great when it comes to carving out useless masking and buildup. One example would be with a vocalist who prefers their wedge to be as hot as possible. In this case, certain frequencies can be rung out of their wedgie, but, especially indoors, that vocal can also be shaped a bit with the other mics it's bleeding into from the wedge. Food for thought ✌️
Awesome! I needed this just now. I have been mixing an awesome Plautdiesche band all week. And I really did not want to waste their time doing a sound check every single night. They are comfortable on stage by now and no one else is playing on this stage or system. So I was wondering to myself what the benefit would be to do another sound check tonight.
I work at a venue and do a lot of monitors for one off shows. Me and FOH usually try to line check before the band arrives, so we know that everything works. I’ll usually have own mic in own monitor to start with. Then I usually take the lead, and ask for 1-2 songs while I’m doing gains and basic sounds. I just tell the band “it will suck at first but then it will get better” After a song and a half, I’ve made some basic gains, EQs etc and put some stuff in wedges/ears. Then I’ll stop and say “alright, I’m ready for comments”
dave your channel is so good, thank you for your time. i have a tiny PA built for DJ's but occasionally have to run sound for bluegrass guys; my question is how to work with people that cant maintain a constant distance from the mic and use that as their "sound".
That's a roough one. You can either take the perspective of if you want to be heard get close to the mic. One thing you can do is make a recording of the mic they're singing into and play it back for them so they can hear the balance between their vocal and background music that they are presenting. But this could easily piss them off if you're not good with your presentation and establish a good repertoire.
Dave, I am a drummer and I play in a Tool cover band here in Ventura. With this type of material, I find the monitor mix needs to be better than what I typically get for less challenging material. Usually it is not. Larger venues with a dedicated monitor board/engineer are great and the performances have been workmanlike. Small clubs are the issue. I studied Dave Weckl and his use of small format digital boards for his live performances. I have proposed to the band the utilization of a small digital board for monitoring and running our own mics to the guitar and bass cabs, kick (kelly shu internal) and 1 just behind my right shoulder (Glen Johns method) to capture the rest of the kit (super cardio Beta 56). FOH feeds our monitor board vocals and muti-pad percussion/samples.I have a kit that is substantial and time can be challenging in these situations. The bass player wants to utilize splitters for all of the House mics (gtr/bass/vocals) vs using our own mics. What are your thoughts on something like this? And thank you for taking the time to educate myself and the thousands who share in interest in progressing things. I have spoke with a few engineers who have worked with you over the years and hold you in the highest regards.
Tool cover band in Ventura! What's the name of the band maybe I'll come check ya out and say hi. Whatever you can do to get things consistent so that you all are happy on stage and can hear what you're doing is the right way to do it.
Ultimately, the goal is to be able to eq/compress/limit each channel as needed. Historically, I have used a small format board and headphones with about 20 Db cut/double gel cups with the 2 mic setup I previously mentioned (Glen Johns method). FOH usually feeds me the gtr/bass/vocals/multi-pad perc. Cymbal bleed causes problems with guitar frequencies and bass is usually lost when I am on the floor toms.
Sounds like you guys have a good grasp on dialing things in and you're going to need to find a method that fits to what you need. Figuring out a way to have the sound consistent and taking full control of it yourselves and just feeding something to whatever venue you're playing is probably going to be the way to go
Love this method always will choose everything all at once and I tell them to play a tune or two so I can get the feel of the show Also it helps to have the PA mix as fast as you can also so you could have a proper monitor level Most of the time they would want more in the floor monitors since they hear the reflective sound of the main PA as you push it I only check one by one if I hear a specific problem or resonance freq But I mute everything else real quick yo hear it alone in the PA as everything else keeps playing I never make them stop and go one by one
Drummer here: Nothing is more frustrating then having a whole BIG BAND sitting on stage and listening to me hitting the various drums repeatedly for 10 minutes 😂. And then the horn section, one by one. And maybe, if you're lucky, you get to play a small section with a vocalist but then its already late and the venue opens its doors 😪. Dave's approach sounds like a dream to me
I used to mix big band and orchestras as well. And same thing applies get the bands or orchestrate a play and dial everything up while everything's on. I'll try and do a video of my strategies for orchestras and getting a load of inputs going. Though they're based on analog gear as I never converted to digital before I stopped mixing but can be adapted to digital
Large gigs: 1 mic/instrument check without band members before band arrives for sound check (channel working, any interference/noise, rough gain, typically ignore most EQ/FX settings unless specific presets are known). Small gigs: band arrives they do a quick check of 1 mic/instrument just to verify channel is working & patched correctly (labelled on desk). 15-20secs per Channel. The rest of the Vol/EQ/FX/mix done as Dave suggests during practice/sound check. You may get a drum & guitar intro/solos during practice/sound check without needing to deliberately isolate them for many precious minutes. You may have presets for frequent singer/musician + instrument/mic combos. EQ's on inputs shouldn't be EQ'ing the room, leave 99% of that EQ on outputs going to amps. EQ on input is 99% specific to user/instrument/mic combo.
I like to start my drum check with the overheads. They're picking up the whole kit if I like it or not. Then I add the close mics to the OH sound I can't avoid. I'm the same way about building the sound with the band playing. In a studio, you might be able to get each instrument on it's own but for live sound you blend what all of the mics are hearing.
I think also hearing just a kick through the PA gives you an idea of the system you are working with and you kind of learn to compensate for that automatically and quickly over time. You can analyze so much information from one kick drum hit once!
Agreed. And the reverse is true as well. Engineers that do a quick tap through line check after set change before their band goes on and lets the audience hear the instruments through the PA is a huge bummer. It's like telling the audience the ending of a book before they start reading. I do pa silence, I never ever let the audience hear any of sound from the bands I mix until the show starts
Hi Dave, great perspective and clarity to what we all do on a daily basis. Thank you for sharing, I have a question that what would you change if one were to mix monitor from FOH?
Not really. When I did mons from FOH, as 8 normally do I get the stage wired and try and make sure all the mics work. Before hand I tell the band my method You all go on stage an jam, play, whatever. Will dial things in while you jam. I then wonder the stage and chat or hand signal each band member and dial up the mons. Then when they are settled, I move to FOH EQ and mix I give them a full run down of my methods before they start. And it's all relaxed. If there is an issue feel free to stop and we can fix. If ya need something let me know. And at some point I may ask for things like to add loads of toms to a song or check backing vocals or other instruments.
The people part is everything in my opinion, you need that band to trust you. A brief explanation to the band on what your strategy is, and how you go about things helps too.
@@DaveRat This is from a FOH perspective i live in, and that is local festivals with 5 bands doing their 2nd gig when you ask the band to play something, anything, and a 5 minute band reunion starts on what to play : ).
THANK YOU! For probably the last 20 years, I've just let the band jam while I dial in stuff. They go "are we going to sound check?" and I say "just did." I get no useful information with the musicians playing one element at a time, if for no other reason than they play drastically differently when they're ACTUALLY playing.
What can you tell us about a virtual soundcheck? If we have a multitrack from a previous show (same musicians and same backline), we can set gains and levels without the band, so that when they arrive the task is to achieve the same input level on the console between recorded sound and the take of the show in question (either mic or DI). I also think it is useful to see the output level VU meter of the console in the previous band or program that is running to have a reference of how far to push it. In the case that it can be done through the PA, it does not give an even closer picture of the tonality of the same, otherwise it will be in silent mode.
I'm Victor...aspiring FOH engr.. Following your steps.. I would love to understand the Vortex Sub set up more and love to work with you some day.. Thanks always@@DaveRat
Great to meet you Victor. I go into a lot more depth on the member side of the channel. It's only $5 a month and you could join binge all the subwoofer videos and then cancel and I think they'll even give your money back if you telling me didn't like it. But that's the easiest way to get the info because it won't let me really share the videos on the member side to non-members. Also in the member side there's a link to the Telegram channel where all the UA-cam channel members can join and we discuss various topics there so it's probably the best place to chat with me
Awesome I'm looking forward to meeting you yeah we share all kinds of other information and people post stuff they're working on and there's a bunch of cool people that are helpful on the Telegram channel. And a whole bunch more videos as well Including posts of 76 zoom checks that are an hour to 2 hours long before I discuss all kinds of topics
as someone who does more Club mixing than shows, we don't get sound checks just live mixing we have one or maybe two songs to set the mix to 95% there and small tweaks from there.
Yeah I've had to do that many times over the years. Getting a good strategy together it allows you to dial up a mix while the band is playing songs is not only fast and useful but also and many situations necessary and a better way to do it
In small-ish rooms, one thing i always did with the mics on stage was to hear of any resonance in the actual stands themselves. With the mics set to show levels, id just tap the boom arms or any part of the stand and bingo. It could be solved by simply adjusting the length or the hight of the stand. Have you come across that too?
Yes Mike stand resonance is an issue that needs to be dealt with in some or many situations. I've gone so far as to make internal deadening for vocal mic stands. In fact I did it on the most recent Pearl Jam tour for Eddie's mic stand
I like to do one mic at a time only to set my input gain, and rough in some monitor levels, but after that I like to get the whole band playing as soon in the process as possible.
My experience is that when testing one mic, the gain iss often not correct as the tech or musician play the actual songs harder or softer than when mic checking
@@DaveRat Yes, but when you're sharing stage boxes and therefore preamps between FOH and monitors, as I usually do because I work at a fairly small venue, it is very helpful to get a ballpark gain setting right off the bat. If I were using an analogue split and monitor world was not affected by FOH gain adjustments then I would probably just get the whole band going right away.
Absolutely, hitting a drum once or twice and setting a ballpark gain or typically for me, The various musicians will test their amps and drums to make sure their rigs work and when they're doing that I grab a gain level, that doesn't require me to put the instrument through the PA
Hi Dave , video idea , what are your thoughts on single ended noise reduction ? does still play a part in the digital console era? any ideas on classic gear? Cheers !
Haven't really used any single ended noise reduction. Unless you want to count gates. Which are pretty much noise reduction in its most fundamental form
I watch one venue's live channel and the sound engineer has a house kit on the stage and everyone just brings their snare; there's almost no drum sound check needed between bands and I've never seen it break down. Maybe that's more common some places, but I've never seen it before and it's pretty cool that all the bands just accept the house kit and roll with it. I mean, it is set up well, the kit itself and the audio for it.
I never want to bother the band with individual mics and setting the levels. Get the band playing as soon as possible, give them what they need in the monitors so they can crack on and then work on the levels/EQ/balance in parallel to the band rehearsing and getting comfortable. Win-win. Besides, who wants to sit in silence whilst you check and gain each instrument separately?
Would you be so kind as to allow me to meet Yngwie Malmsteen in Covington Ky on his current tour. I’d be very grateful. Arthur ❤ I no longer have connections to those for this. ❤
@@DaveRat another part of this thread is the value of getting levels and tones when the talent is just feeling it and playing. Better playing and true tone comes out when they aren’t focused on anything but a groove. This is really true of non-seasoned players and vocalists warming up and finding a part. No way the pre gain is right if you are holding the mic away hunting for your part. Lol Oh yeah. In the festival situation, playing a groove can be entertaining to patrons instead the annoying tom 1, now tom 2 thing.
I mix at horsedrawn festivals , three days , up to 18 bands , no sound check twenty minute changeover if poss , I know the desk and the pa backwards and the sound is mostly already there , the odd problem but fairly easy :-) get the monitor sound right first as it relaxes the band then front of house
The Vocals Up sound check: All faders down except vocals. Balance, headroom and gain before feedback. Done. The band doesn’t care about anything else. If they did, they wouldn’t have been late.
Hehehee absolutely! It took me years to convince all of the punk bands out here in Hawaii to show up more than just an hour before doors to load it and soundcheck for like the four bands that were all playing that night LOL
Even at the large venues that you are used to Dave, what I call "wrap around" of the bass (lower frequencies) content from the FOH onto the stage is still there. You didn't mention how the monitor engineer works around this while you are balancing the FOH?
Low frequency issues from the PA or subs into stage are related to sound system design and configuration. Though they can and do impact the band, it is not specifically a sound check related issue. But rather, it is an issue that can and should be addressed prior to sound check during system setup or tuning. Sound check/line check is where we adjust and align the the mic instrument combinations to the sound system/venue combination. I try and separate the tuning the sound system/room combination as a separate but admittanly often overlapping adventure. Viewing the adventures as separate, it helps clarify the ideal or desired workflows
@@DaveRat Yes for most people this is not in their talents to understand the systems they use let alone design it out. A minority will understand nor use sub steering techniques to held the stage. I forget sometimes the "average" persons depth. Cheers from Canada
Yes. It's all about information. One Mic one instrument gives you a very limited amount of information. You are denied the information of how all the other microphones are reacting to that instrument and you are denied all the information of how all the other instruments affect that microphone. When you don't have all the info then you can't make the best decisions. So whatever method or pattern you use, understanding that every instrument that has volume on stage bleeds into every microphone on stage and every microphone picks up every instrument on stage. And all the stage volumes create resonances and rattles that impact everything else, is important. Everything is interactive so to isolate and just check single solitary instruments and single solitary microphones denies you the ability to understand those interactions
Perhaps you could have Yi Hsuan “ Kate” Lee, who I saw in FOH magazine show her sound check. I read she learned from your staff, if I recall? You’re the best❤
@@DaveRat I loved the article. As I’ve stated, I’m a semi retired touring drummer/ singer, but always had equipment, and to this day try and keep up with what’s going on. My late father bought my brother and I a pa and lights in 1980. It was awesome. If I recall, it was EV horn loaded 2 way tops with a 15”, and single 18” w bins , maybe bagend copies on bottom. I recall a few cs-800 amps, perhaps a microtechnology amp, and a Peavey mixer , 16x 2? It’s been a while. I loved KISS, so my brother and I made flash pods with fff gun powder, nicrome wire from electronics class, and they’d go proof and a big blast of smoke, like kiss alive 1. I miss the 80’s . Sorry long winded
The '80s were a blast and didn't sound that good but we didn't know better then. I never doing sounds at a local punk clubs, hair metal bands, 18 piece big band and Sundays with a 60 piece orchestra. Those are the early '80s for me
The only reason to spend a lot of time on the kick drum sound by itself is if you're expecting a kick drum solo during the show. Much better to get everything together and in context. That last scenario is the best approach, though it does take some experience to pull off.
Really? One way to look at it is that sound checking each instrument one at a time and then adding them one at a time and then readjusting the levels once the entire band plays because the sounds change and all the mics are open so you kind of have to do it over again is the way. And the other way to look at it is you have the entire band play with maybe just their vocal mics on and add the instruments to their mixes while they're playing and kind of get straight from start to finish without having to redo things over again
It's all about information. One mic at a time offers very limited info. Since every mic hears everything on stage always, at some level, checking with all the mics live allows you to hear how an instrument bleeds into all the mics and adjust for the actual sound that will occur during the show. Since every instrument bleeds into every mic, having all the instruments making sound allows you to hear how the instruments sound when bleeding into all the mics.. Setting you EQ fwith only one mic on to get certain sound and then having that sound change when all the mics are on and all the instruments are playing means you are doing everything 2 or 3 times instead of just going straight to the solution
I think it depends on what level you are at. 45-60 minute soundcheck is a luxury at the club level. Usually it is a 15-20 minute changeover and you line check/festival check in that time along with getting the previous band off stage. Being on both sides as an artist and a single engineer (FOH and Monitors) I much prefer 1 instrument, 1 mic. As an artist I know exactly what I need in the monitor. So as we go through I can specify quickly if I want that in my monitor or not. Everyone together turns into us basically immediately stopping and asking for changes to the monitors. And in the engineer side I have 4-5 people telling me what they want across all instruments and just turns into a mess. Versus per instrument I can ask or they can point up or down as we go. Can get them going in 5 minutes. Then I dial in their FOH within the first half of the song. But it is a template through the night as long as I get the preamp gain right. Also even just my gig tonight, I got guitar modelers with one band coming in super hot and soft drummer. Next is a heavy handed drummer and a mic’d amp. Or every bass amp DI has drastically different levels . All together I’m going to be clipping and fixing gain structure and chasing monitors all at the same time. What a mess. One at a time I can set my gain, do some 2 second EQ moves and move on. Much more calm and focused. And over the years I can get close enough in solo what will fit the mix. But it is boring, no doubt. I just work fast.
Yeah the one mic one instrument adventure is definitely more linear and organized. It just doesn't give you a lot of the information. And if your goal is to have the very first note of the very first song when the band comes on stage to be dead on, which is my goal when I mix, The one mic one instrument adventure does not give me enough info to accomplish that consistently
Love you Dave! But the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard you say; "maybe the FOH guy comes up on stage and helps the monitor guy get everything going". Hahahahahaha.
Ha! Yeah, that's not the norm. Though it is for me. I always have a shitty show on the monitors suck on the band bummed out. There was a period of time while mixing FOH for chili peppers and they were going through monitor engineers so fast that I actually had four in ear belt packs at front of house and a set of in ears, and during the show I would listen to monitor mixes and clear com to whoever is doing monitors to make adjustments.
@@DaveRat I do this on small club gigs where I am dual FOH/Mons. Soloing the artist's monitor mix on headphones can absolutely help identify not just technical issues like freqs about to run away, but also help identify and address performance issues (particularly vocalists, unfretted instruments). As a musician too, I find that far too many small club A1s forget that monitor engineering doesn't just stop when soundcheck is done.
Could you share strategy on how I could approach that subject with a sound tech, as a musician? I don't want to sound like I'm trying to teach him how to do his job
Oooh, That's a great question. Sound people and possibly humans in general can be very territorial about their skill set. Where you at and what's your name? Great to meet you. Maybe just telling you we're watching this video ask him for her what their opinion is of it.
@@DaveRat Great to meet you too :) My name is David, I'm a jazz drummer from France, I occasionally play pop gigs, and record myself at home, so I've already got some preference in how I like my instrument to sound I definitely will share your video, but I found it really hard to communicate what I'm really after in term of sound, since there's many ways to approach this very broad an passionating subject !
Very cool and yes it's important to remember that quality sound is not a fact it is just an opinion. And there is no right or wrong just different things to different people prefer. When people think there's a right way and a wrong way it makes it very tough. But when you're doing with people that understand that You're not telling him they're doing it wrong you just have preferences and may be different than other peoples. And I love France Hennepin all over the country many times and try to surf in Biarritz at least once a year.
@@DaveRat Well, I agree with you.. to some extent. That's a never ending debate on whether art is only subjective, but I believe taste is something one could cultivate Very few people would eat a sandwich filled with chocolate and sausage. And would you like some sushis inside your boeuf bourguignon? If you ever come around Strasbourg, please let me know :) I'd love to hear your opinion in person
I don't think so. I try and do a line check and make sure everything works before the band gets there or the sound chick happens if possible. But I don't look at soundcheck as this structured entity. I talked to the band beforehand and tell him hey come up on stage and start playing your instruments and jamming and playing songs and I'm going to run around and try and make things sound good. So other messing around I'll go stand next to one of them and ask him what they want and go over the board and turn stuff up and down and go ask another person and make some adjustments and kind of run around and hang out with them on stage hand signals and maybe they point at something or ask or something. Get all their monitors dialed in maybe throw a few things in the front of house It's not like a thing where you have to man your positions and everybody's in their places. It's a cooperative endeavor of communication to achieve a goal of getting the sound balanced for the various members of the band on stage in front of house. I'm figuring out a way to do that in the most efficient and cooperative smooth way as possible
@@DaveRat that's beautifully put and I love the idea. The experience of my day to day though, is: ok, sometimes that may work with some bands in some situations. But many times, especially dealing with more amateur bands and very tight time schedules, I feel the need for a clear structured soundcheck. Otherwise I will be getting tons of monitor requests before I even have a chance to set proper gains and EQs. I will try to incorporate your mindset a little more though! Thanks.
Also worth noting is that only the most seasoned and professional musicians ever soundcheck alone the same way that they play during performance. Vocalists are the worst for this. I only sound check an instrument at a time if there is no other alternative and if I do, I ask the musician to play their quietest and their most aggressive parts to try to get a range and to get a baseline setting for the comp(s). But nothing beats just having the group play and then doing only the single instrument checks that you need after. Also worth noting is that musicians using in-ears must be aware of your process and expect their mix to change during soundcheck as you refine gain structure. Also, be very conservative with initial gain settings - if you are working with performers for the first time, always start at zero. I have had many close calls where I got overconfident and ended up blasting a musician's in ear mix. You can do serious damage - the best policy is to always start at minimum gain - there is no way to make an accurate guess for initial gain. I just thought - I've never tried this - get the performers to do their first song or two with no in ears and crank the PA. You then get the performers playing to what they hear in the room and perhaps being less careful and you also get a sense of overall PA headroom. Obviously Dave is the pro, but these are a few things that I have learned (and continue to learn) in my time doing strictly amateur live sound.
For me regardless of the band popularity or venue size, if I can get the band on stage, having them just play songs in rehearse is the most valuable info I get for mixing the show. If I have time I'll have the techs go through stuff and fine tune and look for issues beforehand but the techs never play the instrument the same as the musicians and the sounds are never correct. I've been hired over the years to bring bands from clubs to arenas like the offspring and blink-182. I've been hired for bands that have challenges with stage volume and strong personalities like Soundgarden and rage against the machine. And I've mixed fans for many years like chili peppers that are extremely temperamental and sensitive to everything. My goal always is to have the very first note of the very first song of the show be dead on. Have a band come up strong and mixed well right off the bat. None of this dial the mix in during the first few songs crap. What makes or breaks a show is Goosebumps for everyone when that band hits the stage. And the best tool for me to achieve that is going to mix up while the full band is playing and getting as much time with that as possible. But even without that I have strategies that I used to triangulate and get the mixtiles even if I don't get a sound check or any sound to the PA whatsoever
Nothing is perfect. At the board and the board mix might be ideal but the venue might have places where anything is going to sound terrible, to the detriment of the ticket holder. That's just part of going to a live show. Don't blame the engineer OR the venue. Enjoy the experience. The performer(s) will be there to be involved with the audience on a performance. The ticket holder will be part of that unique event. I love live music.
@@DaveRat Dave, I wish I had a mentor like you. Passing knowledge is a skill of its own. Not anybody can do it, and you do it in a way that makes us want to do our best. If I don’t have to support my family nowadays , I’d embark on a pilgrimage to ask you to be my master.
Thank you that's a huge compliment and one of the inspirations of doing this is to offer what I wish the people it offered me when I first got into this and I'm always learning and learn more by sharing as well
Depends if the drum sets there or not. If the drum sets there and there's someone to jam on it with the other guys or gals all good. If not and as always grab what you can with what you got. How do your guitar and bass playing together is more useful than just having a guitar or bass by itself. And of course tail it to the musician personalities because they're happiness and comfort level is important
Thanks for the response. Those are good points, if everyone is happy but the one running behind, it's harder for them as a whole to be upset at anything. Thanks for these in the weeds type videos.
The sound guy who insists the band needs to be low volume, then he cranks FOH to earbleed, is the worst. I’ve encountered more of them than I can count. So when it came time for me to do sound, I did the opposite. Got the bands happy with their stage mix. Then I used FOH to fill in the gaps, as it were, in rolling that out to the audience.
Hmmm, I used to do sound for them, I was their first hired sound guy back in the late 80s. I used to build efx setups for perry and cases for Perkins . Watch vids of Perry singing. He holds the mic about a foot from his mouth and then moves it a full arms length at times Very challenging to get vocals above stage sound. Though I don't know the rift between him and Dave, it could be stage volume issues, could be length of guitar solo issue, or could be old demons coming back But what I can say is Janes in the 80s was unbelievably good. Some of the most intense and magical shows I've ever seen.
The live soundcheck may be better, but it never works for me. I’m not that good. My band resonates the G note. Until I started doing virtual Soundcheck, I had relentless feedback that I could never find because everything was happening at the same time. This never works for me. I know other can succeed at this, but it’s not the best way for me.
I feel like he is conflating line check and soundcheck. They are not the sane thing. Line check is done to ensure routing, cable and mic integrity, etc. It doesnt require the band at all, just lightly tapping each mic and giving signal to each DI, to check for signal, and should be done before the band is even ready to take the stage for soundcheck, ideally. Then you dont run into his scenario of not having a tom or something working while the band is trying to get comfortable.... of course, when time is tight, some of that goes out the window and you do what you gotta do, but being prepared beforehand is always better than having anything interupt the flow of soundcheck. Once that is done, I think his method of inputs balancing through muting and unmuting sounds logical, although I cant say i subscribe to it really.... i do find anomolies through muting an unmuting, but not in such a rigid manner. I bring things up individually first (1 input everything else muted) but then start combining inputs and listening for issues, addressing them as they arise. I can certainly see some benefit to being uniform about your aproach.
Agreed that line check and sound check can be two different things. But the the line gets blurred. After line checking and making sure all your mics and lines are wired correct and functioning, quite often then sound engineers go through a process of spending an annoyingly long time setting game any queuing each drum and instrument one at a time. Kind of a line check/sound check. And this is where you find microphones distorting or things rattling or intermittent or other issues as well. Kind of switching back to line check mode. Then a common structure is to have the band start playing songs, and trying to put it all together in a scramble. So all this time has been spent making sure the lines work and then setting gain and teq'ing them one at a time, only to have to redo everything and all to the gains and he queues once everything's fired up. Redundant, cumbersome and inefficient. Instead, merging those three things together into a fluid and flexible entity of line checks last soundcheck can be beneficial in many situations. Why are everything up do a tap through and then get the band on stage as soon as possible. Explain to them that he'll be dialing their sound in as they're getting their state sounds together. Walk up on stage hang out with him, ask them what they want up or down rather than setting the gains and levels beforehand trying to guess. This interactive scenario may be applicable to your situation and may not be optical to many situations. But it can be extremely helpful in getting the band more time on stage and going directly from testing the mic to getting the sound you desire without having to backtrack and waste time. It's all about information and knowing how to get that information. Tapping a mic to see if it works gives you very little information other than the line is functioning. One mic, one instrument gives you more information but still not a lot of information is gathered. Well you really start to get quality info is one mics turned on with all of the instruments playing and with all the mics on and one instrument playing. That's where you really able to understand what each microphone is actually picking up and will pick up during the show and what sound each instrument's making and which microphones it will impact and how.
Normally at festivals, we don’t have time for sound checks. It’s just a line check and set monitor levels. The key to this is getting the gain settings right. Then you can look at the faders and set them up visually, based on experience. You can always start with things like guitar and bass a bit lower in the mix as they make their own noise as well. I have found that 99% of the time it will sound good right from the first song. Then you can spend a bit of time tweaking it to optimum.
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How you begin ? you tear down complete all faders, then you look your gain staging, and whish faders first you bring up when the show starts ? Vocals and guitar first den Kick and bass ? It is my worst nightmare to not get it right when i can not have a proper soundcheck.....the guiltyness what i feel when the sound dont show up right, triggers my sadness from being bullied in the childhood......hope i did explain it right...😅
Dave has had the pleasure of sound checking shows for years, the rest of us got to see a green flashy light on line check before we opened.
Sort of. When I mixed chili peppers they rarely sound checked. We would do entire tour legs without band members checking. I have to develop strategies to get great sound in the first song with and without checks.
@@DaveRat Haha for sure. I mixed a few bands where you never knew who was going to show up to whatever type of sound check. 🤣
30/45/60 mins for a soundcheck....Sounds like heaven :) Thanks Andy
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Heck yeah its so encouraging to hear you talk about sound check like this! Validates my desire to encourage the bands to play and get comfortable in sound check🎉
The way we've settled into doing things is line checks are before the band even shows up, just for setting our gain structure at our pres and ringing out monitors and general simple monitor mixes, so when the band shows up they can immediately start playing and we can do exactly this! Spend the whole sound check with them playing whole songs🎉
My other favorite last thing to do in a FOH mix is, after doing all the pairing mics together and checking relationships and mic placements and all that jazz, is to pull all my faders down to zero and remix but do it like I'm mixing an album, start with lead vocal (main tonal component), then that informs snare placement (loudest transient element in same range) which informs kick level, which informs bass level, which gives keys/gtr levels, which informs bgv levels, and if you've done it right, the volumes and fader positions should still be supporting the lead vocal well.
I always think about it like the last final check to make sure all the components of the orchestra are balanced🎉
Perfect!!
I read an interview with Big Mick a long time ago where he mentioned that he always gets the vocals right first and leaves them on while he checks everything else. That lit a lightbulb for me, and I always do that now when I am dialing up a mix. Really helps me get to the final product faster.
Big makes a great engineer and a cool guy as well. And yes the techniques used by someone who constantly gets great mixes are definitely something to pay attention to
Also, You don't need artists to get vocal mics at least kinda right in the monitors. If the vocalist walks up and can hear them self right away, your good vibes start flowing that much quicker.
Been doing it pretty much as you express. I really never knew how the pros approached it. Just knew it works for me and bands love it!
Perfect and that's the way to do it. Tailor the soundcheck method for the situation to get the most done and the most info in the least amount of time with the most amount of happiness
This is one of the more validating live mixing strategies i've ever heard, thank you! This has proven more successful and gotten me more praise from the bands im mixing than anything i've ever tried. Smooth as silk 🤙
That just made my day awesome!
I do very quick linecheck, something like 8 kick hits just to set the levels and check if there is anything monumentally wrong. I resident in a local club, each night has 3-4 bands so it is always a bit hectic. The shorter i can do them.. I focus first on the stage sound, so that the musicians have a good balance as that affects absolutely everything downstream. The last thing i want is when doing room sound is to have a guitar player start messing with their amp levels. So, they spend minimum amount of time doing technical stuff and maximum amount of time playing.
Sound check really sets the mood for the whole evening, so i try to be positive and keep it light. And if everything is fine after just two songs, i'll let them go sooner than later, that always seem to get their morale up. I do have the luxury of being in the same room with same gear, with all my own settings.. I know what they want before they ask for it. That really has been great experience which i definitely recommend even if the pay isn't great, but just having everything the same but the bands, i've learned so much in the last two years. Even if you have to do it for free the experience is in this case worth it.
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LOVE these vids Dave and THANK YOU so much for taking the time to do them!!! I always tried to give the performers the best they had to put out there to their audiences and pretty much ran with what I knew going into a show, and made the tweaking adjustments to them to make them as good as was possible. I did a lot of festival work and wasn't given the luxury of having a good sound check timeline...made sure they had the monitors they wanted and adjusted as I went along. One time I had a guitarist jump off the stage and come out front to see how it was out front and he melted...gave me kudos and huge hugs after the gig.~Chris
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I'm a fairly inexperienced sound engineer and this both made me feel validated in what I've been doing so far and helped me learn a bunch of new, helpful things, thank you very much!
I wholeheartedly agree on skipping sources that don't work during line check and moving on to the next thing. I once mixed a show where, because I was unfamiliar with a quirk of the console I was on, I had all the channels that should have come from the stagebox patched to the local inputs. Moving on to the next channel helped me quickly realize that the individual channel was not the issue, which greatly sped up troubleshooting. Later on, the overhead mic didn't work for whatever reason. I moved on and realized it really wasn't needed for that mix in that small space and I saved myself that time and effort I would have otherwise pretty much wasted (sure, having that mic would have been nice, but it was fine without it).
I just did a soundcheck like this at my last concert and it was so refreshing to have soundcheck done in 30 minutes, without the hassle to listen to each drumkit element for ages. Also, more time to play before the show gets us warmed up and makes for a better performance!
Super cool and agreed I have more fun doing it this way and can't stand individual instrument checks unless something's broken or hunting down a rattle
Super useful information. Dave Rat youre the man!!!
Awesome and thank you!
Very interesting, thanks Dave. We have a soundcheck song that has a little bit of everything, and it's always worked better than just waiting while someone goes around the kit. Plus it's handy for those times when you have to hit the ground running.
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The Live sound check has always been my favorite method, and in my experience is (exactly as you said) the most effective method to get the band comfortable and ready for the show.
Yes and nothing more annoying than 15 minutes of kick drum let's put an end that
@@DaveRat Oh god haha .... even as a new SE, this one gets me
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Here here!
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So much wisdom and valuable info... Thank you very much Dave 🙏🏼❤
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Thanks for the tips! One thing I do is get the lead vocal mics dialed in first since they are the ones connecting with the audience. This really helps especially if we are running behind.
I think a lot of sound humans get into the flow of one mic, one source because it's the undisputed speed champ for the kind of sweaty dive bar gigs most of us have started with, where you're running FOH and Mons at the same time and have barely ten minutes to work with because the band was late and and and....
Frustratingly I've found that the bigger shows I've mixed have been exponentially easier than the crap underpaid slogging I've started. Pro bands show up on time with gear they know, and pro musicians know what they need in their monitors to perform. Having an A2 or even a dedicated monitor master makes mixing a breeze compared to sprinting all over the stage yourself.
It's very difficult to drop habits formed in the heat of battle, despite the mindsets from "combat audio" not often carrying over to "big boy gigs". It's always helpful to examine one's biases and habits to try to keep what's useful and drop what's not.
Another great video, thanks Dave!
Thank you and I also believe the one mic one channel thing comes from the studio habits. Where cross-bleed between various instruments tends not to be an issue because they're recording in ISO booths jor only one instrument at a time.
The baseline for a sound checking line check for live shows should be completely different than that for the studio.
If you have unlimited amounts of time then of course listen to one mie one instrument will provide some information.
But the one mic multiple instruments and multiple mics one instrument scenarios are truly where we get the most valuable info
I spent most of my career mixing the opening act with as little sound check as you can imagine. (sometimes
Super cool and yeah we kind of spend our lives drooling over getting sound checks and when I finally had all the sound checks I wanted, I realized it's better to sound check more like the way I did when I was in a rush and didn't have any time. More informative, faster easier and less stress with a better outcome
Dave, LOVE and appreciate all you do for us sound humans! Just did a wedding gig last night - literally no time for a check, band showed up right before show time, just "Here's the band, deal with it!"
I think we've all done that gig before; my advice is: come prepared! Have some sort of scene ready to go, and do your homework!
Thank you and agreed!
We call that Tentoninus: the band shows up at ten to nine!😂 I check similarly. I’ll go online and watch their videos if I have no stage plot or input list. Get an idea what they do, sound like, input list. Either modify an existing mix file (digital) and pull all the faders and monitor sends and tell them to start playing. Processing and labeling is already done. I push faders. Or in monitors, I ring out the vocals before they get there so it’s clean, no feedback or overtones. They walk up to the mic and say “tgat sounds amazing. Can I have a little of the other vocals?” Then play a song. Start jamming. I push faders up and quickly build a mix with most right around minus 5. Adjusting input gains at the same time. Boom. Add in the pre arranged vocal delay slap and drum verb. Then fix any issues. Done in 2 songs. Really in one, but fine tuned in 2. No beating on drums one at a time and driving the audience out of the bar. We don’t get sound checks at festivals so it’s in a cue wedge or phones while Mr monitor goes through that process on stage. I listen to him
Speak requests to the band and then I know who’s gonna play what. Dial input gain. Unmute and go. Sounds like a record everytime!
And you're having fun
@@MrRioting Yeah, when we get no info, we have to turn to the net to get some sort of sense of what to expect. Horns? Lots of Keys? 10 vocals? Two drummers?
We can handle ANYTHING, just let us be prepared!
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As someone who is punting 99% of the time, I tend to do a combination of these techniques. A single mic run through from the bottom to top really makes monitors a more organized process, but I leave each mic on as we progress through the input list. The band will usually noodle about as things start to come online and this enables progressive comparison of drums vs bass, bass vs guitar as Dave noted.
Perfect , do what works, not what is "expected"
Great info and mindset cheers
Yes Yes, I’ve been doing wrong all wrong 😂thanks Dave I enjoy every bit of information you provide.❤
What you are alluding to…..is to have an overall strategy before any fader comes up. Thats critically important and to think it all through and get your troubleshooting scenarios through….excellent message. And all that happens before you’re even in the venue. One of my favorites is mic selection and minimization and it’s always the acoustic drums that require most of the attention. I’ve been working on a 3 mic sorta Glyn Johns thing live and the kick has to punch the room but the other two sorta sugar coat the room. I love the mic selection and eq/gate game…in my opinion, that is where good decisions lead to very minimal troubleshooting.
I love watching your videos Dave
Awesome!!! Thank you
wow. This is very interesting, Dave!
This is also key at small venues but I actually start with getting the vocal mic in the monitors and FOH. It avoids the volume creep on stage and gets the band to playing songs quickly because they can actually hear the vocal. Avoiding the one mic, one instrument thing also stops the band from getting bored waiting around. If I have time I'll tell the band to get a beer and I'll do a line check by myself with an iPad and get the monitors roughly right before the band steps on stage to practice songs
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This really makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the valuable information.
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I wish we could play one show with you behind the faders, keep it up dave maybe one day!
Amen! Play a song. The best way in my humble opinion. Just finished up a blue's festival this weekend. Never heard any of the bands and mixed everything from FOH and did the stage transitions. After over 50 years in the bizz I pulled it off with God's grace. You just need to know your gear and treat the players with respect and ask for patience! ❤
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Thank you Uncle Dave
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I like it. I will typically do a line check before the band shows up just to make sure things are working and I have a signal. When the band shows up, I do just as you describe, having them jump right in to rehearsal and doing my thing while they do theirs.
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I have a lot of respect for your experience, Mr. Dave, but to properly soundcheck (I do line check before the band arrives), I need to follow these steps:
1. set the proper gain on the console for each instrument,
2. set pre-fader sends (possibly with splitted channels) to nominal levels for each artist, but just for their own instrument, so that, while I move on, they can play their own instrument and set the proper listening level on their own bodypack,
3. build the mix for each artist in relation to their own instrument, which means: artist A must play its own instrument while I 'm adding artist B to his mix. They must compare other instruments to their own, not viceversa. This ens up usually with 1:-10 ratio between artist A's instrument and the others.
4. rehearse and refine the mix for each artist,
5. rehearse and refine the mix for the PA.
At the end, I do what you describe at the 5th point, my goal is to raise the PA, when the first feedback occurs, of 10 dB.
Interesting and useful and for me I do all of those things and just avoid the somewhat time wasting and minimally useful practice of getting a musician or stage tech to sit there and play an instrument by itself.
The issue is that rarely if ever is the signal from an instrument played by itself the same or relevant compared to how the instrument is played when the rest of the band is playing.
Unless there are parts of the show where the instrument is played by itself then sound checking with that instrument played by itself is not very useful it's just a time waster
Very good info, I always explain to my band members that they have to keep playing something for sound check and not just do like 5-10 seconds. As someone interested in mixing I sometimes wish I could replace musicians with prerecorded stems :D
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If you are nice to people, and smile at them, you would be surprised as to how much better your whole night will go. Don’t be the grumpy sound guy:)
Very much agreed
I have tried skinning this cat a lot of different ways. For the last 18 or so years, my process has been: 1. Unmute everything. 2. Quick line check of each channel one by one, to set the gain and get very rough EQ/compression set (no more than 5 minutes total). 3. Get the band to play one loud song and get the mix roughly dialled in at FOH. 4. Do a 1st monitors round. 5. Set them free to rehearse and then start refining my mix. 6. Give them the option to do another monitors round a bit later if things aren't perfect or they didn't know what they needed the first time round. It works pretty well for me.
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I'd love to see a real-time video of you, Dave, doing a sound check.
Hmmm, I don't think I have any videos of me doing a sound check and haven't really been interested in mixing anymore. There may be a time when I take on mixing another band.
The only thing that sounds interesting to me to mix would be like a bluegrass band and a field for the bunch of cool homemade instruments
@@DaveRat Sounds like Seasick Steve would be right up your alley ::)
Good stuff but still a bit too much like a conventional rock band I'm thinking more like country Bear jamboree
Hi Dave I would love to hear you do sound for my small wedding band, EV ETX pa and AH qu mixer, or any small band similar. If you go to a wedding yourself and you hear the band with maybe not the best sound are you itching to go up and tweak it right 😅
Hmmm, I used to want to jump in and fix all the stuff. But now I'm more observational and tend to let things be as they are and don't feel the urge to be the hero.
Except if it's catastrophic and an intervention is important and necessary in some way.
I let nature take its path even if the path may be less than optimal in my opinion but if I see a bird caught in fishing line, I will try and free it.
Sage advice for all engineers.
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I tend to do a quick line check with a general EQ of the various elements and then do the live with all mics and instruments to do a full check. Doing the quick line check helps me identify any bad patching or bad lines. However, I do prefer to do all mics/instruments as you described in the last portion of the video.
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When I soundcheck I always start with the drums. Kick, snare, hihat, toms, then the overheads during the drum total. The reason I work this way is because I always mix in the same venue with a capacity of 110 people. Snare, hi hat and cymbals are usually loud enough to not need any PA, so I try to mix to the loudest acoustic instrument, add some kick and toms to the mix and bring the rest up to that level. This also means that I let the git amps do 70% of the work, and add the rest with PA.
When the band does a few songs I will try to perfect the mix and level the monitors, which I usually do by adding a bit, the walk around on stage to listen on the places where the musicians will be.
When I mix at an outdoor festival ( which is not often, but sometimes) I do things a little different, but I generally fall back on what I'm comfortable with, though I try to always experiment to get the best possible mix for both audience and band.
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Very helpful. Cheers Dave
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When I've had extra time for sound check, one thing I've done prior to these combos is mute and unmute across the board to check what's bleeding where. Sometimes this info can be great when it comes to carving out useless masking and buildup.
One example would be with a vocalist who prefers their wedge to be as hot as possible. In this case, certain frequencies can be rung out of their wedgie, but, especially indoors, that vocal can also be shaped a bit with the other mics it's bleeding into from the wedge.
Food for thought ✌️
Very cool Yes and knowing that every mic picks up every instrument And everything interacts with everything else is an important part of the equation
Awesome! I needed this just now.
I have been mixing an awesome Plautdiesche band all week. And I really did not want to waste their time doing a sound check every single night. They are comfortable on stage by now and no one else is playing on this stage or system.
So I was wondering to myself what the benefit would be to do another sound check tonight.
Perfect let me know how it goes awesome
I work at a venue and do a lot of monitors for one off shows.
Me and FOH usually try to line check before the band arrives, so we know that everything works. I’ll usually have own mic in own monitor to start with.
Then I usually take the lead, and ask for 1-2 songs while I’m doing gains and basic sounds. I just tell the band “it will suck at first but then it will get better”
After a song and a half, I’ve made some basic gains, EQs etc and put some stuff in wedges/ears. Then I’ll stop and say “alright, I’m ready for comments”
Very cool and adapting too your situation is the way to go. This just offers a way to do things efficiently if the scenario fits
love you dave! 🙂
Honored and thank you!
dave your channel is so good, thank you for your time. i have a tiny PA built for DJ's but occasionally have to run sound for bluegrass guys; my question is how to work with people that cant maintain a constant distance from the mic and use that as their "sound".
That's a roough one. You can either take the perspective of if you want to be heard get close to the mic.
One thing you can do is make a recording of the mic they're singing into and play it back for them so they can hear the balance between their vocal and background music that they are presenting.
But this could easily piss them off if you're not good with your presentation and establish a good repertoire.
thank you Sir !!
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Dave, I am a drummer and I play in a Tool cover band here in Ventura. With this type of material, I find the monitor mix needs to be better than what I typically get for less challenging material. Usually it is not. Larger venues with a dedicated monitor board/engineer are great and the performances have been workmanlike. Small clubs are the issue. I studied Dave Weckl and his use of small format digital boards for his live performances. I have proposed to the band the utilization of a small digital board for monitoring and running our own mics to the guitar and bass cabs, kick (kelly shu internal) and 1 just behind my right shoulder (Glen Johns method) to capture the rest of the kit (super cardio Beta 56). FOH feeds our monitor board vocals and muti-pad percussion/samples.I have a kit that is substantial and time can be challenging in these situations. The bass player wants to utilize splitters for all of the House mics (gtr/bass/vocals) vs using our own mics.
What are your thoughts on something like this?
And thank you for taking the time to educate myself and the thousands who share in interest in progressing things. I have spoke with a few engineers who have worked with you over the years and hold you in the highest regards.
Tool cover band in Ventura! What's the name of the band maybe I'll come check ya out and say hi. Whatever you can do to get things consistent so that you all are happy on stage and can hear what you're doing is the right way to do it.
Ultimately, the goal is to be able to eq/compress/limit each channel as needed. Historically, I have used a small format board and headphones with about 20 Db cut/double gel cups with the 2 mic setup I previously mentioned (Glen Johns method). FOH usually feeds me the gtr/bass/vocals/multi-pad perc. Cymbal bleed causes problems with guitar frequencies and bass is usually lost when I am on the floor toms.
Sounds like you guys have a good grasp on dialing things in and you're going to need to find a method that fits to what you need. Figuring out a way to have the sound consistent and taking full control of it yourselves and just feeding something to whatever venue you're playing is probably going to be the way to go
Drummer is using GK SuperPhones and rest of band IEM's ($300) with bluetooth transmitter.
@@DaveRat The band is 2L tool cover band los angeles
Love this method always will choose everything all at once and I tell them to play a tune or two so I can get the feel of the show
Also it helps to have the PA mix as fast as you can also so you could have a proper monitor level
Most of the time they would want more in the floor monitors since they hear the reflective sound of the main PA as you push it
I only check one by one if I hear a specific problem or resonance freq
But I mute everything else real quick yo hear it alone in the PA as everything else keeps playing
I never make them stop and go one by one
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Drummer here:
Nothing is more frustrating then having a whole BIG BAND sitting on stage and listening to me hitting the various drums repeatedly for 10 minutes 😂.
And then the horn section, one by one.
And maybe, if you're lucky, you get to play a small section with a vocalist but then its already late and the venue opens its doors 😪.
Dave's approach sounds like a dream to me
I used to mix big band and orchestras as well.
And same thing applies get the bands or orchestrate a play and dial everything up while everything's on.
I'll try and do a video of my strategies for orchestras and getting a load of inputs going.
Though they're based on analog gear as I never converted to digital before I stopped mixing but can be adapted to digital
Large gigs: 1 mic/instrument check without band members before band arrives for sound check (channel working, any interference/noise, rough gain, typically ignore most EQ/FX settings unless specific presets are known).
Small gigs: band arrives they do a quick check of 1 mic/instrument just to verify channel is working & patched correctly (labelled on desk). 15-20secs per Channel.
The rest of the Vol/EQ/FX/mix done as Dave suggests during practice/sound check.
You may get a drum & guitar intro/solos during practice/sound check without needing to deliberately isolate them for many precious minutes.
You may have presets for frequent singer/musician + instrument/mic combos.
EQ's on inputs shouldn't be EQ'ing the room, leave 99% of that EQ on outputs going to amps. EQ on input is 99% specific to user/instrument/mic combo.
I like to start my drum check with the overheads. They're picking up the whole kit if I like it or not. Then I add the close mics to the OH sound I can't avoid.
I'm the same way about building the sound with the band playing. In a studio, you might be able to get each instrument on it's own but for live sound you blend what all of the mics are hearing.
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I think also hearing just a kick through the PA gives you an idea of the system you are working with and you kind of learn to compensate for that automatically and quickly over time. You can analyze so much information from one kick drum hit once!
Agreed. And the reverse is true as well.
Engineers that do a quick tap through line check after set change before their band goes on and lets the audience hear the instruments through the PA is a huge bummer.
It's like telling the audience the ending of a book before they start reading.
I do pa silence, I never ever let the audience hear any of sound from the bands I mix until the show starts
@@DaveRat 100%
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Yep - thats the way. 👍
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Hi Dave, great perspective and clarity to what we all do on a daily basis. Thank you for sharing, I have a question that what would you change if one were to mix monitor from FOH?
Not really. When I did mons from FOH, as 8 normally do I get the stage wired and try and make sure all the mics work.
Before hand I tell the band my method
You all go on stage an jam, play, whatever. Will dial things in while you jam.
I then wonder the stage and chat or hand signal each band member and dial up the mons. Then when they are settled, I move to FOH EQ and mix
I give them a full run down of my methods before they start.
And it's all relaxed. If there is an issue feel free to stop and we can fix. If ya need something let me know.
And at some point I may ask for things like to add loads of toms to a song or check backing vocals or other instruments.
The people part is everything in my opinion, you need that band to trust you. A brief explanation to the band on what your strategy is, and how you go about things helps too.
Agreed
@@DaveRat This is from a FOH perspective i live in, and that is local festivals with 5 bands doing their 2nd gig
when you ask the band to play something, anything, and a 5 minute band reunion starts on what to play : ).
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Those dam tom drums though!
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THANK YOU! For probably the last 20 years, I've just let the band jam while I dial in stuff. They go "are we going to sound check?" and I say "just did." I get no useful information with the musicians playing one element at a time, if for no other reason than they play drastically differently when they're ACTUALLY playing.
Agreed and awesome
What can you tell us about a virtual soundcheck? If we have a multitrack from a previous show (same musicians and same backline), we can set gains and levels without the band, so that when they arrive the task is to achieve the same input level on the console between recorded sound and the take of the show in question (either mic or DI). I also think it is useful to see the output level VU meter of the console in the previous band or program that is running to have a reference of how far to push it.
In the case that it can be done through the PA, it does not give an even closer picture of the tonality of the same, otherwise it will be in silent mode.
Not really sure I understand The question but the setup works just fine with virtual soundcheck mode
Thanks for sharing this.. It's a game changer.. Still the best👍💯👍💯
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I'm Victor...aspiring FOH engr.. Following your steps.. I would love to understand the Vortex Sub set up more and love to work with you some day.. Thanks always@@DaveRat
Great to meet you Victor. I go into a lot more depth on the member side of the channel. It's only $5 a month and you could join binge all the subwoofer videos and then cancel and I think they'll even give your money back if you telling me didn't like it. But that's the easiest way to get the info because it won't let me really share the videos on the member side to non-members.
Also in the member side there's a link to the Telegram channel where all the UA-cam channel members can join and we discuss various topics there so it's probably the best place to chat with me
@@DaveRat Oh cool I will look into it and work on joining as soon as possible thanks for sharing I look forward to it
Awesome I'm looking forward to meeting you yeah we share all kinds of other information and people post stuff they're working on and there's a bunch of cool people that are helpful on the Telegram channel. And a whole bunch more videos as well
Including posts of 76 zoom checks that are an hour to 2 hours long before I discuss all kinds of topics
as someone who does more Club mixing than shows, we don't get sound checks just live mixing we have one or maybe two songs to set the mix to 95% there and small tweaks from there.
Yeah I've had to do that many times over the years. Getting a good strategy together it allows you to dial up a mix while the band is playing songs is not only fast and useful but also and many situations necessary and a better way to do it
Love me some kick-drum solo! 😅
Quick mute all the mics except the kick drum and turn it up, The legendary kick drum solo is coming!
In small-ish rooms, one thing i always did with the mics on stage was to hear of any resonance in the actual stands themselves. With the mics set to show levels, id just tap the boom arms or any part of the stand and bingo. It could be solved by simply adjusting the length or the hight of the stand. Have you come across that too?
Yes Mike stand resonance is an issue that needs to be dealt with in some or many situations. I've gone so far as to make internal deadening for vocal mic stands. In fact I did it on the most recent Pearl Jam tour for Eddie's mic stand
I like to do one mic at a time only to set my input gain, and rough in some monitor levels, but after that I like to get the whole band playing as soon in the process as possible.
My experience is that when testing one mic, the gain iss often not correct as the tech or musician play the actual songs harder or softer than when mic checking
@@DaveRat Yes, but when you're sharing stage boxes and therefore preamps between FOH and monitors, as I usually do because I work at a fairly small venue, it is very helpful to get a ballpark gain setting right off the bat. If I were using an analogue split and monitor world was not affected by FOH gain adjustments then I would probably just get the whole band going right away.
Absolutely, hitting a drum once or twice and setting a ballpark gain or typically for me, The various musicians will test their amps and drums to make sure their rigs work and when they're doing that I grab a gain level, that doesn't require me to put the instrument through the PA
Hi Dave , video idea , what are your thoughts on single ended noise reduction ? does still play a part in the digital console era? any ideas on classic gear? Cheers !
Haven't really used any single ended noise reduction. Unless you want to count gates. Which are pretty much noise reduction in its most fundamental form
I watch one venue's live channel and the sound engineer has a house kit on the stage and everyone just brings their snare; there's almost no drum sound check needed between bands and I've never seen it break down. Maybe that's more common some places, but I've never seen it before and it's pretty cool that all the bands just accept the house kit and roll with it. I mean, it is set up well, the kit itself and the audio for it.
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I never want to bother the band with individual mics and setting the levels. Get the band playing as soon as possible, give them what they need in the monitors so they can crack on and then work on the levels/EQ/balance in parallel to the band rehearsing and getting comfortable. Win-win. Besides, who wants to sit in silence whilst you check and gain each instrument separately?
Exactly and cool
Would you be so kind as to allow me to meet Yngwie Malmsteen in Covington Ky on his current tour. I’d be very grateful. Arthur ❤ I no longer have connections to those for this. ❤
Perfect summary. There must be sound for sound check.
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@@DaveRat another part of this thread is the value of getting levels and tones when the talent is just feeling it and playing. Better playing and true tone comes out when they aren’t focused on anything but a groove. This is really true of non-seasoned players and vocalists warming up and finding a part. No way the pre gain is right if you are holding the mic away hunting for your part. Lol
Oh yeah. In the festival situation, playing a groove can be entertaining to patrons instead the annoying tom 1, now tom 2 thing.
solid advice.
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I mix at horsedrawn festivals , three days , up to 18 bands , no sound check twenty minute changeover if poss , I know the desk and the pa backwards and the sound is mostly already there , the odd problem but fairly easy :-) get the monitor sound right first as it relaxes the band then front of house
Very cool and sounds fun!
The Vocals Up sound check: All faders down except vocals. Balance, headroom and gain before feedback. Done. The band doesn’t care about anything else. If they did, they wouldn’t have been late.
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Hehehee absolutely! It took me years to convince all of the punk bands out here in Hawaii to show up more than just an hour before doors to load it and soundcheck for like the four bands that were all playing that night LOL
Even at the large venues that you are used to Dave, what I call "wrap around" of the bass (lower frequencies) content from the FOH onto the stage is still there. You didn't mention how the monitor engineer works around this while you are balancing the FOH?
Low frequency issues from the PA or subs into stage are related to sound system design and configuration.
Though they can and do impact the band, it is not specifically a sound check related issue. But rather, it is an issue that can and should be addressed prior to sound check during system setup or tuning.
Sound check/line check is where we adjust and align the the mic instrument combinations to the sound system/venue combination.
I try and separate the tuning the sound system/room combination as a separate but admittanly often overlapping adventure.
Viewing the adventures as separate, it helps clarify the ideal or desired workflows
@@DaveRat Yes for most people this is not in their talents to understand the systems they use let alone design it out. A minority will understand nor use sub steering techniques to held the stage. I forget sometimes the "average" persons depth. Cheers from Canada
Yeah, of you are dealing with system design during sound check, then it's a different adventure and cheers!
Would you approach it the same way for smaller gigs where you do FOH as well as monitors?
Yes. It's all about information. One Mic one instrument gives you a very limited amount of information. You are denied the information of how all the other microphones are reacting to that instrument and you are denied all the information of how all the other instruments affect that microphone.
When you don't have all the info then you can't make the best decisions.
So whatever method or pattern you use, understanding that every instrument that has volume on stage bleeds into every microphone on stage and every microphone picks up every instrument on stage. And all the stage volumes create resonances and rattles that impact everything else, is important.
Everything is interactive so to isolate and just check single solitary instruments and single solitary microphones denies you the ability to understand those interactions
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Perhaps you could have Yi Hsuan “ Kate” Lee, who I saw in FOH magazine show her sound check. I read she learned from your staff, if I recall? You’re the best❤
Kate is awesome!!!
@@DaveRat I loved the article. As I’ve stated, I’m a semi retired touring drummer/ singer, but always had equipment, and to this day try and keep up with what’s going on. My late father bought my brother and I a pa and lights in 1980. It was awesome. If I recall, it was EV horn loaded 2 way tops with a 15”, and single 18” w bins , maybe bagend copies on bottom. I recall a few cs-800 amps, perhaps a microtechnology amp, and a Peavey mixer , 16x 2? It’s been a while. I loved KISS, so my brother and I made flash pods with fff gun powder, nicrome wire from electronics class, and they’d go proof and a big blast of smoke, like kiss alive 1. I miss the 80’s . Sorry long winded
The '80s were a blast and didn't sound that good but we didn't know better then. I never doing sounds at a local punk clubs, hair metal bands, 18 piece big band and Sundays with a 60 piece orchestra.
Those are the early '80s for me
@@DaveRat I see an xl-8 for 20k on eBay. Is that a good idea for local or private use?
I would look around you can probably get one cheaper. Those $100,000 consoles are going for 5K or so
The only reason to spend a lot of time on the kick drum sound by itself is if you're expecting a kick drum solo during the show. Much better to get everything together and in context. That last scenario is the best approach, though it does take some experience to pull off.
Depends on the Band, I've mixes 6 channel of ears from FOH, the only way to get their mixes close is to do each cannel at a time.
Really?
One way to look at it is that sound checking each instrument one at a time and then adding them one at a time and then readjusting the levels once the entire band plays because the sounds change and all the mics are open so you kind of have to do it over again is the way.
And the other way to look at it is you have the entire band play with maybe just their vocal mics on and add the instruments to their mixes while they're playing and kind of get straight from start to finish without having to redo things over again
@@DaveRat Yep but the band won't play without their ear mixes click guides etc. I understand your concepts and quite happly use variations of them.
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Unless your going to mute every mic and have a kick solo solo (silly laugh). Great video on ways to speed up sound checks and get to show ready.
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All mics, one instrument. I usually have 10-15 minutes to get a starting mix. I am the monitor engineer (and everything else).
Very cool and yes tailoring it to your scenario is the way to go
Thanks for sharing!
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So are you saying it’s preferred to get sounds and mixes going with band rehearsing instead of mic by mic checking and adding into mixes individually?
It's all about information.
One mic at a time offers very limited info.
Since every mic hears everything on stage always, at some level, checking with all the mics live allows you to hear how an instrument bleeds into all the mics and adjust for the actual sound that will occur during the show.
Since every instrument bleeds into every mic, having all the instruments making sound allows you to hear how the instruments sound when bleeding into all the mics..
Setting you EQ fwith only one mic on to get certain sound and then having that sound change when all the mics are on and all the instruments are playing means you are doing everything 2 or 3 times instead of just going straight to the solution
I think it depends on what level you are at. 45-60 minute soundcheck is a luxury at the club level. Usually it is a 15-20 minute changeover and you line check/festival check in that time along with getting the previous band off stage. Being on both sides as an artist and a single engineer (FOH and Monitors) I much prefer 1 instrument, 1 mic. As an artist I know exactly what I need in the monitor. So as we go through I can specify quickly if I want that in my monitor or not.
Everyone together turns into us basically immediately stopping and asking for changes to the monitors. And in the engineer side I have 4-5 people telling me what they want across all instruments and just turns into a mess. Versus per instrument I can ask or they can point up or down as we go. Can get them going in 5 minutes. Then I dial in their FOH within the first half of the song. But it is a template through the night as long as I get the preamp gain right.
Also even just my gig tonight, I got guitar modelers with one band coming in super hot and soft drummer. Next is a heavy handed drummer and a mic’d amp. Or every bass amp DI has drastically different levels . All together I’m going to be clipping and fixing gain structure and chasing monitors all at the same time. What a mess. One at a time I can set my gain, do some 2 second EQ moves and move on. Much more calm and focused. And over the years I can get close enough in solo what will fit the mix. But it is boring, no doubt. I just work fast.
Yeah the one mic one instrument adventure is definitely more linear and organized. It just doesn't give you a lot of the information. And if your goal is to have the very first note of the very first song when the band comes on stage to be dead on, which is my goal when I mix, The one mic one instrument adventure does not give me enough info to accomplish that consistently
Love you Dave! But the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard you say; "maybe the FOH guy comes up on stage and helps the monitor guy get everything going". Hahahahahaha.
Ha! Yeah, that's not the norm. Though it is for me. I always have a shitty show on the monitors suck on the band bummed out.
There was a period of time while mixing FOH for chili peppers and they were going through monitor engineers so fast that I actually had four in ear belt packs at front of house and a set of in ears, and during the show I would listen to monitor mixes and clear com to whoever is doing monitors to make adjustments.
@@DaveRat I do this on small club gigs where I am dual FOH/Mons. Soloing the artist's monitor mix on headphones can absolutely help identify not just technical issues like freqs about to run away, but also help identify and address performance issues (particularly vocalists, unfretted instruments). As a musician too, I find that far too many small club A1s forget that monitor engineering doesn't just stop when soundcheck is done.
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Could you share strategy on how I could approach that subject with a sound tech, as a musician? I don't want to sound like I'm trying to teach him how to do his job
Oooh, That's a great question. Sound people and possibly humans in general can be very territorial about their skill set.
Where you at and what's your name?
Great to meet you.
Maybe just telling you we're watching this video ask him for her what their opinion is of it.
@@DaveRat Great to meet you too :)
My name is David, I'm a jazz drummer from France, I occasionally play pop gigs, and record myself at home, so I've already got some preference in how I like my instrument to sound
I definitely will share your video, but I found it really hard to communicate what I'm really after in term of sound, since there's many ways to approach this very broad an passionating subject !
@@DaveRat PS : Sorry for the delay, and thank you for sharing your knowledge :)
Very cool and yes it's important to remember that quality sound is not a fact it is just an opinion. And there is no right or wrong just different things to different people prefer.
When people think there's a right way and a wrong way it makes it very tough. But when you're doing with people that understand that You're not telling him they're doing it wrong you just have preferences and may be different than other peoples.
And I love France Hennepin all over the country many times and try to surf in Biarritz at least once a year.
@@DaveRat Well, I agree with you.. to some extent. That's a never ending debate on whether art is only subjective, but I believe taste is something one could cultivate
Very few people would eat a sandwich filled with chocolate and sausage. And would you like some sushis inside your boeuf bourguignon?
If you ever come around Strasbourg, please let me know :) I'd love to hear your opinion in person
This only really works if you have a monitor engineer and desk tho?
I don't think so. I try and do a line check and make sure everything works before the band gets there or the sound chick happens if possible.
But I don't look at soundcheck as this structured entity. I talked to the band beforehand and tell him hey come up on stage and start playing your instruments and jamming and playing songs and I'm going to run around and try and make things sound good.
So other messing around I'll go stand next to one of them and ask him what they want and go over the board and turn stuff up and down and go ask another person and make some adjustments and kind of run around and hang out with them on stage hand signals and maybe they point at something or ask or something. Get all their monitors dialed in maybe throw a few things in the front of house
It's not like a thing where you have to man your positions and everybody's in their places.
It's a cooperative endeavor of communication to achieve a goal of getting the sound balanced for the various members of the band on stage in front of house.
I'm figuring out a way to do that in the most efficient and cooperative smooth way as possible
@@DaveRat that's beautifully put and I love the idea. The experience of my day to day though, is: ok, sometimes that may work with some bands in some situations. But many times, especially dealing with more amateur bands and very tight time schedules, I feel the need for a clear structured soundcheck. Otherwise I will be getting tons of monitor requests before I even have a chance to set proper gains and EQs.
I will try to incorporate your mindset a little more though! Thanks.
Awesome and yes! No right way, just different ways that to optimize your application. Cool cool and let me know how it goes
Also worth noting is that only the most seasoned and professional musicians ever soundcheck alone the same way that they play during performance. Vocalists are the worst for this. I only sound check an instrument at a time if there is no other alternative and if I do, I ask the musician to play their quietest and their most aggressive parts to try to get a range and to get a baseline setting for the comp(s). But nothing beats just having the group play and then doing only the single instrument checks that you need after. Also worth noting is that musicians using in-ears must be aware of your process and expect their mix to change during soundcheck as you refine gain structure. Also, be very conservative with initial gain settings - if you are working with performers for the first time, always start at zero. I have had many close calls where I got overconfident and ended up blasting a musician's in ear mix. You can do serious damage - the best policy is to always start at minimum gain - there is no way to make an accurate guess for initial gain. I just thought - I've never tried this - get the performers to do their first song or two with no in ears and crank the PA. You then get the performers playing to what they hear in the room and perhaps being less careful and you also get a sense of overall PA headroom.
Obviously Dave is the pro, but these are a few things that I have learned (and continue to learn) in my time doing strictly amateur live sound.
For me regardless of the band popularity or venue size, if I can get the band on stage, having them just play songs in rehearse is the most valuable info I get for mixing the show.
If I have time I'll have the techs go through stuff and fine tune and look for issues beforehand but the techs never play the instrument the same as the musicians and the sounds are never correct.
I've been hired over the years to bring bands from clubs to arenas like the offspring and blink-182. I've been hired for bands that have challenges with stage volume and strong personalities like Soundgarden and rage against the machine. And I've mixed fans for many years like chili peppers that are extremely temperamental and sensitive to everything.
My goal always is to have the very first note of the very first song of the show be dead on. Have a band come up strong and mixed well right off the bat.
None of this dial the mix in during the first few songs crap.
What makes or breaks a show is Goosebumps for everyone when that band hits the stage.
And the best tool for me to achieve that is going to mix up while the full band is playing and getting as much time with that as possible.
But even without that I have strategies that I used to triangulate and get the mixtiles even if I don't get a sound check or any sound to the PA whatsoever
@@DaveRat
sage wisdom
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“A kick drum solo” 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Yay!! Nothing but the money!
Nothing is perfect. At the board and the board mix might be ideal but the venue might have places where anything is going to sound terrible, to the detriment of the ticket holder. That's just part of going to a live show. Don't blame the engineer OR the venue. Enjoy the experience. The performer(s) will be there to be involved with the audience on a performance. The ticket holder will be part of that unique event. I love live music.
The beauty of live are the flaws and challenges and unexpected outcomes
Kick drum solo !!!! lol
Right? Why would we line check and sound check in preparation for a kick drum solo that never happens?
@@DaveRat Dave, I wish I had a mentor like you. Passing knowledge is a skill of its own. Not anybody can do it, and you do it in a way that makes us want to do our best. If I don’t have to support my family nowadays , I’d embark on a pilgrimage to ask you to be my master.
Thank you that's a huge compliment and one of the inspirations of doing this is to offer what I wish the people it offered me when I first got into this and I'm always learning and learn more by sharing as well
@@DaveRat Thank you Dave. I reckon you have busy schedule but selfishly please keeping doing this. I learn from you, all the time and every time.
I do have a lot going on and I enjoy doing this and thank you!
Will you start the check if the drummer isnt even there yet? What is your choice when a critical member is running way behind?
Depends if the drum sets there or not. If the drum sets there and there's someone to jam on it with the other guys or gals all good. If not and as always grab what you can with what you got.
How do your guitar and bass playing together is more useful than just having a guitar or bass by itself.
And of course tail it to the musician personalities because they're happiness and comfort level is important
Thanks for the response. Those are good points, if everyone is happy but the one running behind, it's harder for them as a whole to be upset at anything. Thanks for these in the weeds type videos.
You know.
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Do drums always come first?😂
Not for me, who's ever ready for us comes first. I check any sounds that I hear as they come live.
@@DaveRat lol, that was a loaded question, as I’m a drummer. 😁
Pro tip: watch Dave on 2x speed...
Hell yes! More is better, faster is fun
The sound guy who insists the band needs to be low volume, then he cranks FOH to earbleed, is the worst. I’ve encountered more of them than I can count. So when it came time for me to do sound, I did the opposite. Got the bands happy with their stage mix. Then I used FOH to fill in the gaps, as it were, in rolling that out to the audience.
Hey man what do you think; were the vocals being drowned out by the instruments? They sounded fine 2 weeks ago in Jax, fwiw.
What gig are you talking about?
@@DaveRat the same one EVERYONE'S talking about right now.
Jane's Addiction
Hmmm, I used to do sound for them, I was their first hired sound guy back in the late 80s. I used to build efx setups for perry and cases for Perkins .
Watch vids of Perry singing. He holds the mic about a foot from his mouth and then moves it a full arms length at times
Very challenging to get vocals above stage sound.
Though I don't know the rift between him and Dave, it could be stage volume issues, could be length of guitar solo issue, or could be old demons coming back
But what I can say is Janes in the 80s was unbelievably good. Some of the most intense and magical shows I've ever seen.
@@DaveRat I wasn't ever a huge fan but 2 weeks ago some of those songs... it was like a spiritual thing. Thanks for your take.
The live soundcheck may be better, but it never works for me. I’m not that good.
My band resonates the G note. Until I started doing virtual Soundcheck, I had relentless feedback that I could never find because everything was happening at the same time. This never works for me. I know other can succeed at this, but it’s not the best way for me.
Very cool and just understanding the different aspects and finding the tools that work for you is all good
@@DaveRatI fully agree. I know that a lot of people can work this way and get great results doing it.
Backline
I feel like he is conflating line check and soundcheck. They are not the sane thing. Line check is done to ensure routing, cable and mic integrity, etc. It doesnt require the band at all, just lightly tapping each mic and giving signal to each DI, to check for signal, and should be done before the band is even ready to take the stage for soundcheck, ideally. Then you dont run into his scenario of not having a tom or something working while the band is trying to get comfortable.... of course, when time is tight, some of that goes out the window and you do what you gotta do, but being prepared beforehand is always better than having anything interupt the flow of soundcheck.
Once that is done, I think his method of inputs balancing through muting and unmuting sounds logical, although I cant say i subscribe to it really.... i do find anomolies through muting an unmuting, but not in such a rigid manner. I bring things up individually first (1 input everything else muted) but then start combining inputs and listening for issues, addressing them as they arise. I can certainly see some benefit to being uniform about your aproach.
Agreed that line check and sound check can be two different things. But the the line gets blurred.
After line checking and making sure all your mics and lines are wired correct and functioning, quite often then sound engineers go through a process of spending an annoyingly long time setting game any queuing each drum and instrument one at a time. Kind of a line check/sound check. And this is where you find microphones distorting or things rattling or intermittent or other issues as well. Kind of switching back to line check mode.
Then a common structure is to have the band start playing songs, and trying to put it all together in a scramble.
So all this time has been spent making sure the lines work and then setting gain and teq'ing them one at a time, only to have to redo everything and all to the gains and he queues once everything's fired up. Redundant, cumbersome and inefficient.
Instead, merging those three things together into a fluid and flexible entity of line checks last soundcheck can be beneficial in many situations.
Why are everything up do a tap through and then get the band on stage as soon as possible.
Explain to them that he'll be dialing their sound in as they're getting their state sounds together. Walk up on stage hang out with him, ask them what they want up or down rather than setting the gains and levels beforehand trying to guess.
This interactive scenario may be applicable to your situation and may not be optical to many situations.
But it can be extremely helpful in getting the band more time on stage and going directly from testing the mic to getting the sound you desire without having to backtrack and waste time.
It's all about information and knowing how to get that information.
Tapping a mic to see if it works gives you very little information other than the line is functioning.
One mic, one instrument gives you more information but still not a lot of information is gathered.
Well you really start to get quality info is one mics turned on with all of the instruments playing and with all the mics on and one instrument playing.
That's where you really able to understand what each microphone is actually picking up and will pick up during the show and what sound each instrument's making and which microphones it will impact and how.
Should play this to students instead of whatever the hell they’re teaching them these days.
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Vocals first every time.