I'm am sure this is a stupid question. If CFCs are bad for the ozone, why is it that chlorine is shipped by the train load to every city to go in swimming pools, where it evaporates to the atmosphere?
Doug, not a stupid question at all. The chlorine in the CFC refrigerants is slightly different than that in the pool mixes. I am not a chemist and do not know all of the chemistry behind it, but pool chlorine breaks down into ions that do not survive long enough to rise into the ozone layer, where the chlorine in the CFC's boil off into a gas form that rises quickly into the ozone layer in a molecular form that is poised to do damage. This is a pretty decent write-up: rebrn.com/re/why-is-chlorine-safe-to-put-in-swimming-pools-but-extremely-dang-903352/
Thanks for that link. I did wonder why venting a small amount of CFC refrigerant in the air would result in a $37,000 fine, but you could dump 50 pounds of shock in a pool and that was perfectly legal. I'm not a chemist, so when different types of molecules are assigned the same nomenclature, it is confusing to a laymen.
That is a great question! My understanding is that chlorine in pools does cause ozone depletion, although an extremely small amount compared to the same amount of a CFC refrigerant because, as Christopher was saying, a lot of the chlorine breaks down before it reaches the ozone layer. I have heard that some cities are considering switching to salt water in their pools instead of chlorine since it can't cause any ozone depletion.
I have a dumb question- Since refrigerant is so much denser than air, how the hell could refrigerant get 10 miles up off the ground into the atmosphere to even get to the ozone layer in order to damage it? Thanks
The how refrigerant gets to that level is a little beyond my expertise. I can take a guess, but I am not sure that would be accurate. I wish I could give you a direct answer on this. As an HVACR instructor and contractor I have to work within what the laws are and what the regulations say. Which, is "under no circumstances will you knowingly release more than a "diminimous" (small) quantity of refrigerant from a system. The only thoughts (and not 100% sure if this is correct) is that pressure differentials, the winds, the natural flow of hot air rising, and the fact that the refrigerant will break down over time, may allow it to rise to that level, or encounter other substances that help it rise. Again, this thought is just what my instinct says, I have not done research on the "how's."
is it the combination of different atoms? Or is it the chlorine that makes it so efficient for absorbing thermal energy ?? because all of them except HFO and natural refrigerants have a chorine atom in them ??? CFC, HCFC, HFC
Here's a question- Why is it illegal to vent R134A out of an AC or refrigeration system when a lot of cans of "compressed air" contain R134A? I also see R134A as a propellant in some aerosols. Can someone please explain why it's legal to vent R134A out of an aerosol can, but not out of an AC or refrigeration system. Thanks
It has to do with the quantities and that refrigeration and A/C systems are serviced by professionals. There is a big difference in venting 15-100 pounds (depending on size of system) to the 12 ounces or less in a can. Then there is also the oils that are contained in the refrigeration system, they are hazardous materials. Hope that helps a bit.
@@cmolnar65 Thank you so much for responding. That sort of makes sense. I just don't think it makes sense that I could get arrested if I cut the lines on a charged mini fridge that holds 2 ounces of refrigerant, but I could legally use as many 12 ounce cans of R134A as I want to blow dust out of my computer. Go figure
That's what I always thought about R12, that they're heavier than air and would require some doing to make it up to the atmosphere. I believe ozone is created by sunlight, the UV separates the oxygen molecule and it forms ozone. Some think the montreal protocol is basically a conspiracy to force people to go back to preindustrial age by making refrigeration too expensive. But we could always use ammonia (which is really bad, flammable, explosive, and deadly) that has no global warming potential or ozone depletion... but CFC's were invented for a reason.
This was very helpful. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Thank you for sharing
I'm am sure this is a stupid question. If CFCs are bad for the ozone, why is it that chlorine is shipped by the train load to every city to go in swimming pools, where it evaporates to the atmosphere?
Doug, not a stupid question at all. The chlorine in the CFC refrigerants is slightly different than that in the pool mixes. I am not a chemist and do not know all of the chemistry behind it, but pool chlorine breaks down into ions that do not survive long enough to rise into the ozone layer, where the chlorine in the CFC's boil off into a gas form that rises quickly into the ozone layer in a molecular form that is poised to do damage.
This is a pretty decent write-up:
rebrn.com/re/why-is-chlorine-safe-to-put-in-swimming-pools-but-extremely-dang-903352/
Thanks for that link. I did wonder why venting a small amount of CFC refrigerant in the air would result in a $37,000 fine, but you could dump 50 pounds of shock in a pool and that was perfectly legal. I'm not a chemist, so when different types of molecules are assigned the same nomenclature, it is confusing to a laymen.
That is a great question! My understanding is that chlorine in pools does cause ozone depletion, although an extremely small amount compared to the same amount of a CFC refrigerant because, as Christopher was saying, a lot of the chlorine breaks down before it reaches the ozone layer. I have heard that some cities are considering switching to salt water in their pools instead of chlorine since it can't cause any ozone depletion.
I have a dumb question- Since refrigerant is so much denser than air, how the hell could refrigerant get 10 miles up off the ground into the atmosphere to even get to the ozone layer in order to damage it? Thanks
The how refrigerant gets to that level is a little beyond my expertise. I can take a guess, but I am not sure that would be accurate. I wish I could give you a direct answer on this.
As an HVACR instructor and contractor I have to work within what the laws are and what the regulations say. Which, is "under no circumstances will you knowingly release more than a "diminimous" (small) quantity of refrigerant from a system.
The only thoughts (and not 100% sure if this is correct) is that pressure differentials, the winds, the natural flow of hot air rising, and the fact that the refrigerant will break down over time, may allow it to rise to that level, or encounter other substances that help it rise. Again, this thought is just what my instinct says, I have not done research on the "how's."
Avery Alexander hurricanes destroy refrigerants in the atmosphere
Michael Harned citation needed
@@michaelharned8741 How does that work?
Avery Alexander hurricanes produce a lot of ozone which oxidize refrigents I have lived through two and they produce a lot of ozone
is it the combination of different atoms? Or is it the chlorine that makes it so efficient for absorbing thermal energy ?? because all of them except HFO and natural refrigerants have a chorine atom in them ??? CFC, HCFC, HFC
HFCs don't have chlorine, the C is for the carbon.
Isobutane (R600a) , Propane (R290),
Thanks. I tried looking it up, but I couldn't find an answer.
If chlorine is dangerous wy is it manufactured in ather products ; as seen they are in other products wy is it not dangerous fore the o zone layer
Here's a question- Why is it illegal to vent R134A out of an AC or refrigeration system when a lot of cans of "compressed air" contain R134A? I also see R134A as a propellant in some aerosols. Can someone please explain why it's legal to vent R134A out of an aerosol can, but not out of an AC or refrigeration system. Thanks
It has to do with the quantities and that refrigeration and A/C systems are serviced by professionals. There is a big difference in venting 15-100 pounds (depending on size of system) to the 12 ounces or less in a can. Then there is also the oils that are contained in the refrigeration system, they are hazardous materials.
Hope that helps a bit.
@@cmolnar65 Thank you so much for responding. That sort of makes sense. I just don't think it makes sense that I could get arrested if I cut the lines on a charged mini fridge that holds 2 ounces of refrigerant, but I could legally use as many 12 ounce cans of R134A as I want to blow dust out of my computer. Go figure
Carbon Dioxide R744
12:50 a single zeotropic refRrrRigreAOutsbNtttt
Lmaoooo
13:28 13:30
The molecules are too heavy to go to the upper atmosphere besides ozone is replenshed by hurricaines
That's what I always thought about R12, that they're heavier than air and would require some doing to make it up to the atmosphere. I believe ozone is created by sunlight, the UV separates the oxygen molecule and it forms ozone. Some think the montreal protocol is basically a conspiracy to force people to go back to preindustrial age by making refrigeration too expensive.
But we could always use ammonia (which is really bad, flammable, explosive, and deadly) that has no global warming potential or ozone depletion... but CFC's were invented for a reason.
Chlorine is stil in other products
HFC's don't have chlorine. The C stands for Carbon.
same tutorial content.
thanks for your valuable information Christopher Molnar can i get your email ID i have some issues regarding azeotropic refrigeranats
Uhm...... Freon ....and stuff like that..,.?
Refrigerant is still bad for the atmosphere I see.