Got your own example?? Who has had their legacy ruined/altered by another? CORRECTION: At one point, I said Malone would have 2 MVPs instead of one... That was a mistake. Malone already has 2. He would have 3 MVPs instead of 2, which is even more impressive and surpasses Duncan's total.
Bil Russell had a large impact on Jerry West's career, if it wasn't for Bill, Jerry would have won 6 rings and his finals is 1-8 but if we exclude Bill from the picture he would hae been 7-2. That stat alone would probably put him in top 10 players of all time.
Bill Russell and his Celtics had a large impact on many players. Without Bill, Jerry West would have been talked more in the conversation on who is the best guard not named Jordan. Elgin Baylor would be competing with Bird and Lebron for who is the GOAT Small Forward. Wilt would win more championships to the point that he gets a stronger case of being the GOAT basketball player.
@@chuis2101 Yup they lost that year. 7 championship in a row after that. Who else could stop them except Wilt right? Even though Boston had his number his whole career. He can it least end the streak. Nobody else could.
True Bird was a huge obstacle for Moncrief. You could add their final year in college basketball as well because Bird’s Indiana state team knocked out Moncrief’s Arkansas team in the elite 8. Moncrief was damn good. Recall Jerry West wanted to take Moncrief with the first overall pick in the 1979 draft but was vetoed by the owner of the lakers, still it shows what respect West had for Moncrief.
The only reason ISU won that game was because the 6th man Bob Heaton, threw up a wrong-handed push shot as the buzzer went. Sorta unfair for Moncrief at 6'4" to be guarding Bird but he never backed down from a challenge.
I think the Raptors title worked out exactly how it was supposed to. Had they gotten to the finals, they would have met the Warriors during their invincible 2 year stretch, wouldn't have traded Demar, and then likely would have lost to the Sixers with Butler. They needed Kawhi, even if it was just for the one year
Klay was hurt for a quarter in the last game 🤣 and without KD the warriors swept Portland in the WCF and people were daring to say that they were better without KD…
Good video, Jonny! I learned about Moncrief from one of your older videos and it was great learning about him again here. Def tough luck for him and the Bucks. Malone is another great example. Jordan and the Bulls kept so many ringless during the 90s, like Barkley, Miller, and Malone. Happy Friday 😊
@@PIP...33 lmao wtf?? rodman is nowhere close to being the best defender of all time. not even close. hes definitely one of the best rebounders of all time, but theres more to defense than just rebounding. and im a big fan of rodman
@@perditadurango9699 jordan is 119-60 in the playoffs, and won 30 out of 37 series he played. hes only been swept twice, by birds celtics. i do get the point youre trying to make lol but come on man.. those teams he was losing to are considered some of the greatest teams of all time.
On another note Jonny, you are honestly the best basketball UA-camr on this platform. Keep up the great content. I’ve had personal struggles in life and just watching your videos has kept me alive. Thank you so much Jonny genuinely keep up the great work.
@@jonnyarnett Thank you so much Jonny. This honestly means the world to me. You couldn’t possibly imagine how big that means to me, and on top of that it is coming from a celebrity. Thank you so much. Genuinely I am speechless. I am a spiritual individual so the prayers mean a lot. Thank you from the bottom of my heart ♥️ peace ✌🏼and love ❤️. sincerely, Julian.
Excellent video! But since you asked ... I'd add Bill Russell's insane dynasty making everyone else, for an entire decade, get an unfair reputation as losers and low caliber. Especially his effect on the legacy of Wilt Chamberlain, and how many more championships Wilt would surely have.
I'm from Milwaukee and was pretty young when Moncrief was playing but I remember he was the guy here during that era and was just a really well rounded player including defense. Injuries shortened his career but I still think he had a long enough run to make a solid case for the hall of fame. His name would be bigger if he played in a larger market too. Those Milwaukee teams were always in the playoffs and always in contention in the early and mid 80s. They had the second best record in the conference from 1980-1986 every single year. They would always lose in the ECF or semi finals to either the Celtics or 76ers.
Great video and info on Moncrief and Malone. Another great player that got forgotten was Bernard King in 1984. NY took Boston to 7 games but a fabulous performance by Bird in game 7 put NY away.
if King had been able to play another 3 or 4 years surely the Knicks together with him and the young Ewing would have had an excellent chance and who knows, maybe he would have created problems for the bad boys of detroit, or at least we would not have seen the Pistons play 3 consecutive finals, but the knee injury in '85 limited King's career, and we never got to see that team. I partially agree with you, but I believe that like other cases (Sampson to give another example of that generation) we have never seen the best of that player
Great video. I love the point you made on Moncrief and incidentally he is also one of the main reason why MJ wasn't able to have good series in the playoffs in the mid 80s as a matter of fact only 3 teams where able to beat the Bulls in the 80s, the Celtics, the Pistons and the Bucks of Moncrief a very underrated player but one who was able to lead his team to sweep the Celtics, he was no joke!
I blame knee injuries more than Jordan for Patrick retiring ringless. He wasn't close to the athlete in the 90s that he was in the 80s. 1980s Patrick Ewing would have taken the Bulls down en route to a ring at least a time or two.
I'm lovin' your greater amount of content releases, Jonny! And I agree, Moncrief was an absolute beast. He just played in a smaller market in an era with phenomenal Celtics, Sixers, and Lakers teams. If his era hadn't been such a shark tank, he definitely would've won more, and gotten more acclaim. The "Boston Strangler", Sixers two-guard Andrew Toney, isn't nearly as well known as he should be either. Even Bird mentioned how much he terrorized the Celtics, but injury issues cut short his career and most fans today don't even know he existed. You definitely need some luck in life...E
That Celtics team in 1983 was sick of Coach Bill Fitch and kinda mailed it in to send a message to Red Auerbach. Red got the memo, fired Bill Fitch, hired KC Jones, and the Celtics continued their Eastern Conference dominance for another four years. As far as the Bucks go, the trade for Jack Sikma made a lot of people think Milwaukee found their final missing piece for a championship run. Unfortunately, the missing piece piece was actually the Coach. Don Nelson is good at coaching average teams to overachieve with gimmicks. He’s just not good at handling championship talent (which Milwaukee finally had) into an NBA championship. I bet if you substitute Don Nelson with Jack Ramsay (RIP) or Larry Brown, Milwaukee at least goes to an NBA Finals. As far as Karl Malone winning two championships, if Jordan isn’t around, he may have won a championship in 1997, but there’s no way Utah beats the Indiana Pacers the following year. That team was absolutely loaded and Michael Jordan himself said that besides the Detroit Pistons, the only teams that pushed him to his limits were those Indiana Pacers teams. He didn’t say the Knicks or the Jazz. Yes, he said the Indiana Pacers. Reggie wins a championship in 1998.
That 98 Pacers team is so underrated and took Chicago to 7 without homecourt and against a much healthier Pippen. Malone has no excuse for not winning the title in 98. With Pippen's back injury that made him look 10% at best in Game 6 a real star like Duncan or Barkley would closed the deal and doubt either Game 6 or 7 would have been close.
@@homerthompson416their were missed calls in the finals but jazz scored only 54 points in a finals game and choked. If this was today's imagine what would've happened
I would say Bill Russell ruined or highly damaged a lot of stars. Elgin Baylor didn’t win any championships because of him, Jerry West only one once. Both of them would be viewed much higher without him. Finally Wilt Chamberlain, right now it is always a debate between him and Russell. People always dismiss the stats Wilt put up because he didn’t win the titles like Bill. But if Bill didn’t play and Wilt won a couple more, there would be no debate about how great Wilt is.
@@facelessandnameless NO THERE IS NOT ONE HAD 9 HOF AND SHOOT 40% FG AVERAGE 15 PPG IN CAREER OTHER FOUGHT ENTIRE DECADE VS SUPERTEAM STILL WON MANY GAMES AVERAGE LIKE 30 AND 25 AND 10. HOW MANY GAMES LEBRON WON VS 5 HOF GSW 1-8. MJ IS 0-6 VS BIRD AND 3 HOF. WILT IS GOAT.
@@PIP...33 Don't sell Wilt's team short. Who did he have as teammates? Warriors: Paul Arizin, Tom Gola, Guy Rodgers, and later Nate Thurmond 76ers: Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker. All of them are HOFers When his 76ers team had a better record (in 1966 and 1968), had a 3-1 series lead with HCA (in 1968), and lost two very close game 7s (by 1 point in 1965: Havlicek stole the ball, by 4 points in1968 when blowing a 3-1 lead), it's not because of talent discrepancy. It's just Wilt's flaw of "not knowing how to win". I haven't even mentioned the 1969 series, when Wilt's team had a 2-0, 3-2 lead and then lost game 7 by 2 points. Now, don't tell me that it's Butch van Breda Kloff's fault of not letting him into the game in the final minutes. It's his fatal flaw of being a weakling, by not asserting the concept of "it's my team, I am in charge here" to Butch. Do you think Jordan would need Phil's permission to get into the game? If Jordan had encountered Wilt's situation in the 1969 game 7, he would simply have told the coach to f*ck off!!! So winners are winners. It's not just the basketball talent, but the character. Wilt's record against the Celtics in game 7: 1962 lost 107-109 1965 lost 109-110 1968 lost 96-100 (with home court) 1969 lost 106-108 (with home court) When you lost 4 games 7 by a total of 9 points, no way it's a lack of talent.
Yup. You're so right about Moncrief. IMO Moncrief should've made the Top 50 list in 1997, much less the Top 75 list in 2022. The Bucks were the 3rd winningest team of the 80s decade behind (of course) the Celtics & Lakers. But they're forgotten because they never made the finals.
Watching this as a fan of DeMar (why I started watching basketball) yeah, damn you LeBron James. I don’t think I’ve ever hated a basketball player more in a 3-year stretch.
Also the Boston team ( except for Bird) had grown to hate the coach Bill Fitch. Boston did not want to play for their coach anymore and Fitch was replaced with Casey Jones.
young fan here i know about Sidney Moncrief, in my bucks ranking for me is the 3rd best buck the impact he has as a two-way player and have realistic shots to win a ring this is my reason i have it.
@@fortynights1513Terry Cummings was underrated. Clippers were stupid for trading him for Marquese who was a good player but had injuries and later retired. Bob lainer was also on the bucks and they added Hodges, Sikma later
I haven't watched Moncrief play as I began watching in 91 as a grade schooler, but heck, he really deserved to be mentioned among the Top 75 players. He was the man and the driver of the tough minded Bucks in the 80s, and as the third/fourth best team in the league during that time despite no championships.
The 1980s Milwaukee Bucks didn't make it to the NBA Finals, but they were a very good team. Sidney Moncrief, in particular, is an underrated NBA player.
The 80’s East is said to be one of the best conferences ever. Out of curiosity if you took that Bucks team and inserted it into the West, could they have had any better of a shot? Outside of the Lakers who consistently made the finals, I’ve heard the 80’s West wasn’t very strong.
Thank you so much for doing this video Jonny! Sydney Moncrief was my hero growing up. I hated Larry Bird because he kept on getting in the way of Moncrief and Milwaukee. The 1987 playoff 7 game series especially! Paul Pressey got fouled in game 2 by two guys and they just let it go, not allowing hiim to hit the free throws that could've tied the game. That series was kind of Syd's last hurrah, before knee problems ended his career. I have to say though, if the Bucks would have won that series., then Larry does not steal the Ball against Detroit and we all as NBA fans would have missed one of the greatest plays in NBA history! After the Bucks lost this series I was actually able to start appreciating Larry because I realized the Bucks simply were not championship tier contenders anymore. By the way, Sydney is still my hero.
Jordan ruined Ewing's "legacy" too. Ewing doesn't get enough recognition or respect anyway,,and yeah they blew it when Jordan was out, but against Olajuwon's Rockets, who may have beaten a 94 or 95 Finals Bulls team, IMO. But still, almost year in year out, Jordan sent the Knicks packing
I feel like there are quite a few great stars in the past whose legacies are “ruined” just by existing at the same time as an era-defining player. Nash and Amare for routinely getting beat by San Antonio, CP3 for the losses to the Curry era Warriors, to an extent Clyde Drexler for getting outclassed by MJ in the 92 Finals even though he eventually won a chip with Houston, and the list is probably endless.
Sheesh Johnny, gotta have to open up the trauma of the Lebronto era and the death of Demar Derozan. At least it gives us a championship in Toronto but at a massive price as the ghost of Derozan will haunt us year in and year out.
This is why Michael Jordan stands alone at the top of the GOAT debate. It wasn’t just Karl Malone. It was virtually the entire 1990s NBA. It was Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Miller, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Gary Payton and Alonzo Mourning. Best we can come up with for LeBron is a one guy whose made All-NBA 3x. Everybody else has been able to build their legacy in the LeBron-era.
Playing devil's advocate here: I'll agree with Malone, Barkley, and GP since he beat those guys in the finals, but we don't know how Ewing and the others you listed would've done against their western conference opponent; assuming that MJ was the lone reason they never won is simply an assumption used to boost his legacy, which btw, doesn't need any boosting.
@@WarrenF19 I’ll agree to an extent, but the same could be said for DeMar DeRozan. There really aren’t any players who truly boosted their legacies against Jordan in his prime. One could argue Isiah Thomas, but nobody after MJ hit his stride. LeBron has allowed Dirk Nowitzki, Stephen Curry, Kawhi Leonard, Kevin Durant, Nikola Jokic, Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce to all cement 1st Ballot Hall of Fame résumés against him. Doesn’t mean he isn’t one of the greatest to do it, but his greatness is nowhere near the level of Michael Jordan’s.
@@Marlowe10100 I agree 100%. I only mentioned MJ cuz I've been hearing that BS for years. It's also funny how people bring up LeBron when I mention MJ's legacy; I'm a Pistons fan, so idgaf about either guy lol. They both ended my teams best runs
Many super star careers were wrecked because of Jordan. Barkley is one of the most outstanding examples. And along with Karl Malone you can include John Stockton. And if Bird had stayed healthy who knows but Jordan would have been one of those super stars who were prevented from getting a ring until later in the 90s.
Umm, no. Jordan outperformed Bird completely. Bird had a superior team. In 1990s, Bird was old and had an inferior team. Jordan was alot more experienced and had a vastly superior Bulls team. Bird had no chance
@@legacytv2453 except Bird's team prevented Jordan's team from getting a ring until the 90s. So its exactly as I said. If Bird was healthy he would not have retired until maybe late 90s. And who knows, maybe Jordan's team would have finally beat the Celtics but it's also possible it might have been more of the same. Also, Bird helped his team go to the Eastern conference finals his rookie year, then win the championship his second year. You can't say it was just because he had a good team because the mid to late 80s Celtics team didn't exist at that point. So both were inexperienced but Bird was able to win early on but Jordan wasn't?
You could list off a ton of players that may have won championships without MJ in the picture: Reggie Wayne, Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley... the list goes on.
1:52 already, there’s a problem with your analogy. Boston was the roadblock. It wasn’t one player and Larry Bird. This revisionist history that make individuals the sole reason the team wins is getting out of hand.
We need to talk about Steph Curry ruining James Hardens legacy. Beats him in 4 out of 5 years in the playoffs. 2018&2019 Rockets have a good chance to win the finals. If harden has two finals appearances as the main superstar even without winning either one I think it changes his legacy more positive than what it is right now. Being 1 game away from the finals in 2018 as the MVP with a chance to play Lebrons weakest cavaliers team post heat era rockets are probably the favorites. In 2019 although warriors and rockets met in the 2nd round. I still think the rockets make it to the finals and beat the trailblazers that got swept by the warriors that year in the conference finals. That was the year Harden averaged 36 ppg. I don’t think they beat the raptors but 2 back to back finals appearances as the main superstar raises his legacy tremendously. Karl Malone is viewed as a top 20 player because of 2 back to back finals appearances and for being an all time great scorer. I think harden would have that exact same legacy and be viewed as a top 20-25 player if Steph Curry didn’t exist.
This is the type of thing that separates great players from superstar, all-time players. One guy is just far, far more competitive and takes great offence at defeat or even people doubting them. Then they proceed to go on a rampage and want to completely humiliate the other player. It reminds me of what Jordan did in the '92 Finals against Drexler. There were people saying, "Maybe Clyde should be the MVP" and "Clyde is a better 3-pt shooter." That's all it took. And when Barkely won MVP in '93, it essentially sealed his fate against MJ in those Finals also (Jordan had what is widely regarded as the best Finals performance ever). One player looks across the court/field/whatever at another guy and they're like, "Over my dead body... this guy is not beating me. It's not happening." Bird had it, MJ had it, Kobe had it to an extent, he just couldn't control his urges sometimes and would play some awful basketball because of it. The whole thing reminds me of dirt old Kareem having a horrendous Finals performance in a game and everyone clowning him and saying he should retire, then he came out and absolutely blistered the Celtics the next game. That's what legends are made of.
Yes, Moncrief was a great, dangerous player, both ends of the court. He wasn't the only great player that Bird, kept from championships. There was Domenique Wilkins, and Reggie Miller. Though he didn't ruin Jordan's legacy, he, and the other Celtics, did postpone it for a couple of years, in a row. There were more, great players, at the time, that were in the western conference, that he denied championships, when he was reasonably healthy, but I will stop with the ones I named, from the eastern conference.
Haven't fully watched this video and I already feel it's worth saying there was no shame in losing to Jordan, Steph, Shaq in LA, or Tim Duncan. Everyone got beat by them.
Yes. I disagree with so many points,on this video. Losing to Jordan is not shameful. Simply having a rivalry with Jordan made many players more famous.
Another great video bro, But I'm curious why didn't you go with al Harford? Instead of damarr when Harford had more of a chance to become an NBA legend, if LEBRON did not stop him. He probably wins a title and would been considered as one best center of his generation and the greatest Hawk.
LeBron has quite a number some star players kept from winning, but I guess nobody was more devastated than DeMar. Horford still found a way to eventually make an impact on a championship team, although losing in the finals while DeMar's career was known for being LeBron's Bonus Round every time they faced each other and hasn't even made a 2nd round appearance since then.
@nicksamp515 I agree with what you're saying, but I think that Al Harford in 2015 had a legitimate shot at win 🏆. They 4 all stars in that team and the second best record in the NBA. If not for lebron who knows an experience, atlanta team like that, could have maybe won the championship against the warriors
@@788lakers Ewing had lost so much of his athleticism by the 90s due to knee injuries. Without the knee injuries he would have smoked Jordan the same way young David Robinson did to the Bulls in the early 90s.
@@PIP...33Most of 1988-1992. ZZZvain you have been at this for years. Everyone knows you never watched any of those games. You dont even like Larry Bird since most oldschool fans say Bird is much better than Lebron.
U could say Steph and Damian Lillard to an extent, with curry winning in 2016,2017 and 2019, without curry blazers could've made the finals in 2019 and Damian Lillard would have more praise. Also curry did lot of this without of further having a negative impact on Dame's legacy
As a Jazz fan, I will never forgive Jordan for what he did to the Jazz. Without him, the Jazz likely have 2 championships and Malone would likely have 1 or 2 Finals MVPs.
Interestingly in Malone’s case, his best playoff series arguably came after both those finals. In 2000 vs the Sonics, he averaged 30 points on I believe 64% true shooting. Sure, a first round series vs an opponent that wasn’t anything amazing. But that’s a great statline vs anyone.
Nope. It was Malone choking. 97 and 98 were both winnable series for y'all when the bulls were at it's weakest but Malone severely underperformed. If he only lived up to his regular season standards, he might've beaten MJ twice. And even without MJ, he'll be struggling with Zo down low and Indy would've given you the L as well.
How the Sixers weren’t the #1 or #2 seed, after a season where they had probably the greatest squad of all time, is crazy Also the person who felt LeBronto the worse was DeWayne Casey! And before Duncan came along Malone was the hands downbest PF in history. Same with Lebron destroying Larry as the best SF ever. Magic, Mike, and Wilt are safe I believe
Demar had a legacy?? For what, being the worst player of his team during playoffs? He was/is a great regular season scorer, when they let him hit the midrange, but with this modern playstyle, there's no room for midrange specialists during playoffs, that's why people like him, CP3 and Aldridge always fell during playoffs as first/secondary offensive choice
To be honest, nba fans never expect Derozan to be a ring contender in Toronto. Toronto got a ring because of Kawhi not Kawhi because of Toronto. This admin included Derozan in the list just to put LBJ into pedestal and to make the quote and quote lebronto effect seems real
Jordan is actually the biggest bully of the 90s in terms of ruining legacies. Malone is only 1 victim, but Jordan also ruined Barkley's, Kemp's and Drexler's legacies.
In the video "The NBA IF Michael Jordan Never Existed" you can see how Malone would be the greatest PF of all time if MJ didn't exist. My conclusion based on that is: 1) MJ is so great that he overshadowed everyone in his winning days from 1991 to 1998 except from Hakeem who won one of his rings with MJ retired (btw Hakeem is amazing don't get me wrong) 2) Malone is such a great but overlooked player if you think of it ON THE COURT, NOT OFF IT 3) Every great with the name Malone is cursed with eternal unappreciation towards them 4) MJ managed to ruin the Mailman's legacy at the backend of his prime, beating him at the age of 34 and 35(even though he won many scoring titles earlier and that cost Malone as well) 5) Many praise Tim Duncan, LeBron or Kareem for their longevity but not Karl and that's unfair! The man was a superstar at 36 and borderline all star at LeBron's age. Plus, Malone played for 18 years as a clear(for me) no1 option for one franchise (Stockton is great but still). LeBron never had the patience to do that or Kareem while Tim couldn't do that for that long. Give Karl the PLAYER some CREDIT!
Malone was known as a consistent playoff choker that's why he's not as praised as TD, Kareem and LeBron. 97 and 98 were winnable series if he only elevated his game but Scottie and Rodman got to his skin and choked back to back. Those guys you mentioned are in the top 10 all-time for a reason and that's winning. Put those 3 in his position and MJ would've had a finals loss especially in 98 when they're at their weakest.
I don't exactly hear people praising Duncan for longevity (Barry McCockiner of whom argues that the second half of his career is overrated), but point taken.
Well, he didn't choke. He was guarded by 2 of the greatest defenders in history(though Scottie had issues in game 6 1998) and still put up about 24 ppg in these two series combined, with ok efficiency
First one I thought of when I read the titles was Hakeem ruining David Robinson. He destroyed him so bad, in his MVP season no less, I could never look at him the same again. His pathetic post-game interview "Most of the time I defended him pretty well..." did the rest. He's so lucky, the Spurs got Duncan or he'd be forgotten...
I agree bro, for sure Robinson is out of my top 10 list of best centers of all time, I understand that there are not many players who have been elected DPOY and MVP, easy to be convinced by Robinson's excellent stats in his prime, but if you get schooled like that in your prime, maybe you were good but not good enough
Tbh that's more of a one time beating all the examples mentioend were multiple times in which a player a lost. Also David would go on to get two championships thus fulfilling his career.
hi jonny, great video as always. I think the most obvious is Elgin Baylor and Bill Russell, if it weren't for Russell and the Celtics, we would remember Baylor today as one of the best players ever, and while we recognize his talent, he is probably one of the most ignored players in the history of basketball. In fact, the legacy of many players has been damaged by the Celtics dynasty Bob Pettit Oscar Robertson Jerry West and also Chamberlain, but these players like others have won at least one title, while Baylor never won the ring. Unfortunately, he retired early in the 1971-72 season due to injury. and the Lakers first achieved a 33-game regular season streak that year, and then won the ring 18 years after the last one. More recently I would say Steve Nash and Tim Duncan, Nash was MVP twice during that time and in 2005 and 2007, years in which the Spurs won the ring, the Suns had an excellent opportunity to win the title, and in both cases they lost to the Spurs, although it is fair to remember that the 2007 series was extremely controversial due to the suspensions following Horry's flagrant foul on Nash. I also take this opportunity to offer you an idea for a video, another "what if" maybe a little bit obvious, but I'd like to know your opinion, if the NBA champions, faced the ABA champions every single season, who do you think would have won? I especially would have loved to see Indiana Pacers vs. New York Knicks (1973) and New York Nets vs. Boston Celtics (1974) With that said, let me know what you think
@@Duck_Dodgers hi mate, I know that, but he missed almost all regular season and didn't play in the playoff, after that year he retired, I don't think even him considered himself that as a title win. I agree regarding West, but like the other players mentioned before, they won at list 1 title, this saved their legacy in my opinion. Think about Nowitzki if Dallas didn't have that great playoff run in 2011, or Moses Malone if he never won in '83 whit Philly
This might sound apples to oranges but who was better: DeMar or Kyle Lowry? I've heard some say the latter is the best Raptor. Vince is an important player in their early years and had a good career for himself, but I don't see him considered on that level nowadays.
@fortynights1513 Lowry is the greater Raptor. Resume speaks for itself, plus Kawhi was only there 1 season so the body of work not big enough for it to be him. Surprisingly enough, most people had Vince as the GOAT Raptor until 2019 happened. Just ignored the fact that Toronto had more success with DeMar than they ever did with Vince even though VC was more talented and his East had 0 Top 10 All‐Time players in it (in their prime).
Johnny, should we really keep calling Tim Duncan a PF, when even he himself and Pop as well said he was a Center all along? You could make a video about it ;) How would he rank among Centers, and how it would put Malone back in best PF position, which is what everybody wants to avoid 😂
It's probably because when Duncan first entered the league. David Robinson was at the center position. And Duncan did play power forward for seven years I think?
Nowadays kids call Jordan's era weak and take shots at his competition because Jordan pretty much bullied the entire 90s decade. The man was so geeat that his teams felt like SUPERTEMS, while at least in 92, 93, and you could argue in 97 and 98 the team around him was worse than the opponent's, but Jordan always pushed the ties in the favour of the Bulls. Now imagine the result of that greatness and dominance being used AGAINST him to claim that he just didn't have a legit competition.
@@Marlowe10100 That very young PG was his best version and Indy was a championship team that rivals Miami and Spurs. They could've beaten the Spurs in 2013 as they're all in their peaks that time, but LeBron gave them the L with him having a series of clutch performances in that 7 game battle.
IMO the 2011 finals series kinda ruined LeBron's legacy, no one is talking much about 2007, but losing in such fashion against an underdog (and people still remember Barea or Jet because of this series), especially when making the goat case
Jorden ruined Ewing much worst than Malone. No question about Ewing suffered the most. 6 times he knocked him out in there careers. Don’t count scoring little rather count the ability of championships and Altering legacies. Even a poll said it was Jordan to Ewing
It was a team effort tho. We can't say KD or Curry alone ruined LeBron's chances to a 3 peat. But the Warriors certainly killed LeBron's chances on being the GOAT.
@@jonnyarnettI'm a fan since idk forever? I remember washing dishes while I'm watching a video about harden being compared to kobe much love to your wonderful channel ❤
They needed each other for greatness. It made both more impressive by going against each other. If you ever look at it usually takes 2 at the same time to bring the true greatness out. In my opinion that's all. People may not agree and I understand just what I've seen through the yrs of watching
Without MJ, Malone has to contend with Reggie Miller. Barkley likely gets a ring. As does Shawn Kemp. Also, without MJ, we get Pistons VS Lakers(again) in 91.
Only issue I have with the Jordan/Malone argument is that outside of the scoring titles, several players had an equal effect on Malone's legacy: Olajuwon, Drexler, and Kemp/Payton all prevented the Jazz from advancing multiple times. Technically Drexler had the biggest impact as he beat Malone's Jazz twice in Portland and a third time in Houston. The Jazz always struggled making the finals, and arguably still could have lost to whatever strong East team they played in the Jordan-less universe.
finally, I never understood that Jordan/Malone argument, Karl malone played in the finals for the first time at 34 years old, if he was so good why the Jazz never been at that level for all the 11 seasons before, we think about only '97 and 98' I like Karl Malone and Stockton, but again, if they never get at least one, they were not good enough
@@stevenmichienzi5046 Those two may not have been good enough, and I've also heard that at least offensively, the scheme the Jazz ran was flawed. Some argue that there wasn't enough ball movement outside of Stockton until Jeff Hornacek shows up, and that lack of playmaking other than Stockton made their offense predictable.
I feel like it’s gonna be Jason Tatum ruining Joel Embiid, if Tatum could get a mvp or two and a championship or two without Embiid winning, cuz how many teams Boston beat Philly since Tatum was drafted lol
Neither were mentioned, but I could see the argument. Both have had pretty good careers for themselves as is, but yeah, Embiid would be considered much better nowadays if he had a deeper playoff run on his resume than he already has.
This year, the Heat had Giannis running away from the ball in 4th quarters, the same Heat Jokic comfortably dispatched in 5. By making the Heat run look like a fluke I think Jokic gave Giannis' resume a blow (even though it doesn't ruin his legacy)
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Got your own example?? Who has had their legacy ruined/altered by another?
CORRECTION: At one point, I said Malone would have 2 MVPs instead of one... That was a mistake. Malone already has 2. He would have 3 MVPs instead of 2, which is even more impressive and surpasses Duncan's total.
Chris Webber ruined by David Stern
Can you start back doing the versus series??
CP3 by Steph Curry and Luka, in the sense that any hope he had of winning a chip as the man and shedding the choker label to some was squashed
Bill Russel vs Jerry West
Malone was a playoff choker eithier way
Bil Russell had a large impact on Jerry West's career, if it wasn't for Bill, Jerry would have won 6 rings and his finals is 1-8 but if we exclude Bill from the picture he would hae been 7-2. That stat alone would probably put him in top 10 players of all time.
Bill Russell and his Celtics had a large impact on many players. Without Bill, Jerry West would have been talked more in the conversation on who is the best guard not named Jordan. Elgin Baylor would be competing with Bird and Lebron for who is the GOAT Small Forward. Wilt would win more championships to the point that he gets a stronger case of being the GOAT basketball player.
Think west lost 9 he's lost the most
Wilt was the only one who can beat the Celtics. No disrespect to West.
@@boskey10the Hawks beat them in 58 too
@@chuis2101 Yup they lost that year. 7 championship in a row after that. Who else could stop them except Wilt right? Even though Boston had his number his whole career. He can it least end the streak. Nobody else could.
Moncrief also pulled down 7 rebounds a game as a 6'4 guard a couple seasons with FG% over 50% which was very rare for guards back then.
He's the only freshman to ever lead the nation in field goal %. I love that guy and know way too much about him. 🙂
50% is probably even rarer today considering how many 3s guys take
True Bird was a huge obstacle for Moncrief. You could add their final year in college basketball as well because Bird’s Indiana state team knocked out Moncrief’s Arkansas team in the elite 8. Moncrief was damn good. Recall Jerry West wanted to take Moncrief with the first overall pick in the 1979 draft but was vetoed by the owner of the lakers, still it shows what respect West had for Moncrief.
The only reason ISU won that game was because the 6th man Bob Heaton, threw up a wrong-handed push shot as the buzzer went. Sorta unfair for Moncrief at 6'4" to be guarding Bird but he never backed down from a challenge.
@@shawnfarquhar2434Moncrief was also the DPOY in 1985.
He and Mike are the only 2 guards to get a DPOY (Marcus Smart is a PG IMO)
@@frizzyrascal1493what about Alvin Robertson pretty sure he won it too and Payton in 1996
I think the Raptors title worked out exactly how it was supposed to. Had they gotten to the finals, they would have met the Warriors during their invincible 2 year stretch, wouldn't have traded Demar, and then likely would have lost to the Sixers with Butler. They needed Kawhi, even if it was just for the one year
Nah. It takes Klay and KD injured for Raptors to win. Let's be real. Healthy Klay even without KD the Raptors would lose.
Klay was hurt for a quarter in the last game 🤣 and without KD the warriors swept Portland in the WCF and people were daring to say that they were better without KD…
@@beefpares810the raptors were already leading before klay went down. Klay only missed 1 whole game
@@CamilSongZexactly
@@beefpares810warriors should be the last ones talking about injuries to a opposing team
Good video, Jonny! I learned about Moncrief from one of your older videos and it was great learning about him again here. Def tough luck for him and the Bucks. Malone is another great example. Jordan and the Bulls kept so many ringless during the 90s, like Barkley, Miller, and Malone.
Happy Friday 😊
FOR SURE DERANGED TELL ME WHEN MJ WIN 1 GAME VS BIRD IN PLAYOFF 1 ON 1
JORDAN NEVER OUTPLAYED MALONE HE FACED JEFF HORNACEK WHO HAVE ZERO VERT AND ALSO BARELY 6'3 MEANWHILE MALONE FACED BEST DEFENDER IN HISTORY RODMAN.
@@PIP...33 I agree. MJ is 1-9 he never won anything.
@@PIP...33 lmao wtf?? rodman is nowhere close to being the best defender of all time. not even close. hes definitely one of the best rebounders of all time, but theres more to defense than just rebounding. and im a big fan of rodman
@@perditadurango9699 jordan is 119-60 in the playoffs, and won 30 out of 37 series he played. hes only been swept twice, by birds celtics.
i do get the point youre trying to make lol but come on man.. those teams he was losing to are considered some of the greatest teams of all time.
Karl Malone actually has 2 mvp awards he won his second one in 1999 after Jordan retired.
Ah darn. Good catch. Correction is going in the pinned comment. Makes the point stronger tbh.
@@jonnyarnett please a video on Dream Team 2 (94 FIBA Team)
lmao... 40 game season. Was worth not mentioning. Stats were not all that impressive either.
@@basket472The 1999 season was 50 games, but point taken.
@@jonnyarnett JORDAN OUTPLAYED NO VERTICAL 6'3 HORNACEK AND MALONE FACED BEST DEFENDER EVER RODMAN. AND JONNY IS DERANGED
I'm a simple man... I see Jonny Arnett and I click!
Great work as always!
On another note Jonny, you are honestly the best basketball UA-camr on this platform. Keep up the great content. I’ve had personal struggles in life and just watching your videos has kept me alive. Thank you so much Jonny genuinely keep up the great work.
Glad the videos help. I’ll be praying man. I’ve been down in the dumps too, but life is seasonal. Just remember it isn’t always storms
@@jonnyarnett Thank you so much Jonny. This honestly means the world to me. You couldn’t possibly imagine how big that means to me, and on top of that it is coming from a celebrity. Thank you so much. Genuinely I am speechless. I am a spiritual individual so the prayers mean a lot. Thank you from the bottom of my heart ♥️ peace ✌🏼and love ❤️. sincerely,
Julian.
Excellent video! But since you asked ... I'd add Bill Russell's insane dynasty making everyone else, for an entire decade, get an unfair reputation as losers and low caliber. Especially his effect on the legacy of Wilt Chamberlain, and how many more championships Wilt would surely have.
LeBronto had such a ripple effect that the Raptors absolutely bent over for Kawhi and allowed what we know as load managing.
It was a huge gamble when you look back at it, but hey it got us the Championship.
I'm from Milwaukee and was pretty young when Moncrief was playing but I remember he was the guy here during that era and was just a really well rounded player including defense.
Injuries shortened his career but I still think he had a long enough run to make a solid case for the hall of fame. His name would be bigger if he played in a larger market too.
Those Milwaukee teams were always in the playoffs and always in contention in the early and mid 80s. They had the second best record in the conference from 1980-1986 every single year. They would always lose in the ECF or semi finals to either the Celtics or 76ers.
Love ur vids man keep on grinding 🙏♥
Great video and info on Moncrief and Malone. Another great player that got forgotten was Bernard King in 1984. NY took Boston to 7 games but a fabulous performance by Bird in game 7 put NY away.
if King had been able to play another 3 or 4 years surely the Knicks together with him and the young Ewing would have had an excellent chance and who knows, maybe he would have created problems for the bad boys of detroit, or at least we would not have seen the Pistons play 3 consecutive finals, but the knee injury in '85 limited King's career, and we never got to see that team.
I partially agree with you, but I believe that like other cases (Sampson to give another example of that generation) we have never seen the best of that player
@@stevenmichienzi5046they would've had a chance against the bulls and pistons maybe.
Let's all be real. Malone ruined Malone's legacy with you know what and DeMar didn't have a legacy to be ruined
Malone did nothing wrong. Guys just love to hate on black men
@@machoboys8884 oooh boy what a take
@@machoboys8884 "Jeffrey Epstein did nothing wrong, people just like to hate on child predators"
@@xsslasher4131Moses was never a pedo bruh
@@afropurgatory5422I’m sorry but I can’t accept any Moses Malone slander
You are on fire lately.. great content after great content
I love how MJ started and ended the Jazz nba finals runs with game winners
Great video. I love the point you made on Moncrief and incidentally he is also one of the main reason why MJ wasn't able to have good series in the playoffs in the mid 80s as a matter of fact only 3 teams where able to beat the Bulls in the 80s, the Celtics, the Pistons and the Bucks of Moncrief a very underrated player but one who was able to lead his team to sweep the Celtics, he was no joke!
Man. Everybody thought that LeBronto was over in 2018 but nobody thought that it was the nail in the coffin for them.
For MJ, id also say pat ewing, and like everyone else in the league in the 90s
Shawn Kemp and Gary Payton too and those two hurt.
And Charles Barkley
@@pfzt
Gary at least won a ring
I blame knee injuries more than Jordan for Patrick retiring ringless. He wasn't close to the athlete in the 90s that he was in the 80s. 1980s Patrick Ewing would have taken the Bulls down en route to a ring at least a time or two.
@@homerthompson416Charles Smith game in 1993 ecf. They got robbed by the refs.
I'm lovin' your greater amount of content releases, Jonny! And I agree, Moncrief was an absolute beast. He just played in a smaller market in an era with phenomenal Celtics, Sixers, and Lakers teams. If his era hadn't been such a shark tank, he definitely would've won more, and gotten more acclaim.
The "Boston Strangler", Sixers two-guard Andrew Toney, isn't nearly as well known as he should be either. Even Bird mentioned how much he terrorized the Celtics, but injury issues cut short his career and most fans today don't even know he existed.
You definitely need some luck in life...E
That Celtics team in 1983 was sick of Coach Bill Fitch and kinda mailed it in to send a message to Red Auerbach.
Red got the memo, fired Bill Fitch, hired KC Jones, and the Celtics continued their Eastern Conference dominance for another four years.
As far as the Bucks go, the trade for Jack Sikma made a lot of people think Milwaukee found their final missing piece for a championship run.
Unfortunately, the missing piece piece was actually the Coach. Don Nelson is good at coaching average teams to overachieve with gimmicks.
He’s just not good at handling championship talent (which Milwaukee finally had) into an NBA championship.
I bet if you substitute Don Nelson with Jack Ramsay (RIP) or Larry Brown, Milwaukee at least goes to an NBA Finals.
As far as Karl Malone winning two championships, if Jordan isn’t around, he may have won a championship in 1997, but there’s no way Utah beats the Indiana Pacers the following year. That team was absolutely loaded and Michael Jordan himself said that besides the Detroit Pistons, the only teams that pushed him to his limits were those Indiana Pacers teams.
He didn’t say the Knicks or the Jazz. Yes, he said the Indiana Pacers.
Reggie wins a championship in 1998.
That 98 Pacers team is so underrated and took Chicago to 7 without homecourt and against a much healthier Pippen. Malone has no excuse for not winning the title in 98. With Pippen's back injury that made him look 10% at best in Game 6 a real star like Duncan or Barkley would closed the deal and doubt either Game 6 or 7 would have been close.
@@homerthompson416their were missed calls in the finals but jazz scored only 54 points in a finals game and choked. If this was today's imagine what would've happened
I would say Bill Russell ruined or highly damaged a lot of stars. Elgin Baylor didn’t win any championships because of him, Jerry West only one once. Both of them would be viewed much higher without him. Finally Wilt Chamberlain, right now it is always a debate between him and Russell. People always dismiss the stats Wilt put up because he didn’t win the titles like Bill. But if Bill didn’t play and Wilt won a couple more, there would be no debate about how great Wilt is.
There’s no debate wilt is and probably always will be the best basketball player ever
@@gettinggains1364Yes there is a debate 😂
@@facelessandnameless NO THERE IS NOT ONE HAD 9 HOF AND SHOOT 40% FG AVERAGE 15 PPG IN CAREER OTHER FOUGHT ENTIRE DECADE VS SUPERTEAM STILL WON MANY GAMES AVERAGE LIKE 30 AND 25 AND 10. HOW MANY GAMES LEBRON WON VS 5 HOF GSW 1-8. MJ IS 0-6 VS BIRD AND 3 HOF. WILT IS GOAT.
@@facelessandnameless PLAYERS VS SUPERTEAMS :
MJ 0-6
LEBRON 1-8
WILT IS 15-24
@@PIP...33 Don't sell Wilt's team short. Who did he have as teammates?
Warriors: Paul Arizin, Tom Gola, Guy Rodgers, and later Nate Thurmond
76ers: Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker.
All of them are HOFers
When his 76ers team had a better record (in 1966 and 1968), had a 3-1 series lead with HCA (in 1968), and lost two very close game 7s (by 1 point in 1965: Havlicek stole the ball, by 4 points in1968 when blowing a 3-1 lead), it's not because of talent discrepancy. It's just Wilt's flaw of "not knowing how to win".
I haven't even mentioned the 1969 series, when Wilt's team had a 2-0, 3-2 lead and then lost game 7 by 2 points. Now, don't tell me that it's Butch van Breda Kloff's fault of not letting him into the game in the final minutes. It's his fatal flaw of being a weakling, by not asserting the concept of "it's my team, I am in charge here" to Butch. Do you think Jordan would need Phil's permission to get into the game? If Jordan had encountered Wilt's situation in the 1969 game 7, he would simply have told the coach to f*ck off!!!
So winners are winners. It's not just the basketball talent, but the character.
Wilt's record against the Celtics in game 7:
1962 lost 107-109
1965 lost 109-110
1968 lost 96-100 (with home court)
1969 lost 106-108 (with home court)
When you lost 4 games 7 by a total of 9 points, no way it's a lack of talent.
Yup. You're so right about Moncrief. IMO Moncrief should've made the Top 50 list in 1997, much less the Top 75 list in 2022. The Bucks were the 3rd winningest team of the 80s decade behind (of course) the Celtics & Lakers. But they're forgotten because they never made the finals.
Watching this as a fan of DeMar (why I started watching basketball) yeah, damn you LeBron James. I don’t think I’ve ever hated a basketball player more in a 3-year stretch.
Bro hated him for winning and no other reason💀
@@tjkale1800 damn straight 🫣🤫🤣🤣
@@tjkale1800yeah obviously
Man. Everybody thought that LeBronto was over in 2018 but nobody thought that it was the nail in the coffin for them.
@@tjkale1800That’s a good reason to hate
Love ur vids
I already know this is gonna be 🔥
I never knew that Bird had the flu and missed a game of that first playoff series. Interesting information.
Also the Boston team ( except for Bird) had grown to hate the coach Bill Fitch. Boston did not want to play for their coach anymore and Fitch was replaced with Casey Jones.
young fan here i know about Sidney Moncrief, in my bucks ranking for me is the 3rd best buck the impact he has as a two-way player and have realistic shots to win a ring this is my reason i have it.
Those Bucks were pretty darn good, and he was their best player I believe (though I have heard good things about Marques Johnson too).
@@fortynights1513 Marques Johnson was a very good player in his early days with the bucks.
3rd is too high
Agreed. Giannis, Kareem, and Robertson are better just off the top of my head.
@@fortynights1513Terry Cummings was underrated. Clippers were stupid for trading him for Marquese who was a good player but had injuries and later retired. Bob lainer was also on the bucks and they added Hodges, Sikma later
I haven't watched Moncrief play as I began watching in 91 as a grade schooler, but heck, he really deserved to be mentioned among the Top 75 players. He was the man and the driver of the tough minded Bucks in the 80s, and as the third/fourth best team in the league during that time despite no championships.
I feel bad for Demar and Moncrief but I don't feel bad after Karl also ruined his own legacy 😭
What’s even funnier is Dave Cowens was on the Bucks when they swept the Celtics
The 1980s Milwaukee Bucks didn't make it to the NBA Finals, but they were a very good team.
Sidney Moncrief, in particular, is an underrated NBA player.
The 80’s East is said to be one of the best conferences ever.
Out of curiosity if you took that Bucks team and inserted it into the West, could they have had any better of a shot?
Outside of the Lakers who consistently made the finals, I’ve heard the 80’s West wasn’t very strong.
What Larry Bird did to Chuck Person… maaannn Lol 🥲😅🤣
Bro you’re really growing on me I really look forward to your videos. Keep up the good work
Another awesome video idea! Can't wait to see more. I had no idea Moncrief was dominated by Larry Legend!
Thank you so much for doing this video Jonny! Sydney Moncrief was my hero growing up. I hated Larry Bird because he kept on getting in the way of Moncrief and Milwaukee. The 1987 playoff 7 game series especially! Paul Pressey got fouled in game 2 by two guys and they just let it go, not allowing hiim to hit the free throws that could've tied the game.
That series was kind of Syd's last hurrah, before knee problems ended his career. I have to say though, if the Bucks would have won that series., then Larry does not steal the Ball against Detroit and we all as NBA fans would have missed one of the greatest plays in NBA history! After the Bucks lost this series I was actually able to start appreciating Larry because I realized the Bucks simply were not championship tier contenders anymore.
By the way, Sydney is still my hero.
Jordan ruined Ewing's "legacy" too.
Ewing doesn't get enough recognition or respect anyway,,and yeah they blew it when Jordan was out, but against Olajuwon's Rockets, who may have beaten a 94 or 95 Finals Bulls team, IMO.
But still, almost year in year out, Jordan sent the Knicks packing
JORDAN WHO ?? SHOW ME 1 GAME MJ WIN VS BIRD
@@PIP...33yo take a break kid u don't have to comment every time u see Jordans name lol
@@joel8692 DERANGED SHOW ME 1 GAME VS BIRD HE WON
I feel like there are quite a few great stars in the past whose legacies are “ruined” just by existing at the same time as an era-defining player. Nash and Amare for routinely getting beat by San Antonio, CP3 for the losses to the Curry era Warriors, to an extent Clyde Drexler for getting outclassed by MJ in the 92 Finals even though he eventually won a chip with Houston, and the list is probably endless.
Bird and Jordan took pride in humiliating opponents
Bird especially
I would argue the biggest example would be Bill Russell against Chamberlain, West, and Baylor
Bill ruined Wilt's legacy
No he didn’t because everyone knows Wilt is better than Bill, Bill just had way more help.
@@Mikeaj-un6mfHe’s right though. If not for Bill, Wilt would be regarded as the undisputed GOAT because he’d have way more rings.
Bill also ruined Jerry West’s. Can you imagine how many rings West would have if not for Russell.
@@facelessandnamelessOng. Man's might've been considered a top 10 player oat if not for billy.
Also Baylor
My Man LB!
Moncreif gets forgotten but damn was he a beast
Sheesh Johnny, gotta have to open up the trauma of the Lebronto era and the death of Demar Derozan. At least it gives us a championship in Toronto but at a massive price as the ghost of Derozan will haunt us year in and year out.
Happy Friday everybody and clutch upload as always Johnny!
This is why Michael Jordan stands alone at the top of the GOAT debate. It wasn’t just Karl Malone. It was virtually the entire 1990s NBA. It was Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Reggie Miller, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Gary Payton and Alonzo Mourning.
Best we can come up with for LeBron is a one guy whose made All-NBA 3x. Everybody else has been able to build their legacy in the LeBron-era.
Playing devil's advocate here: I'll agree with Malone, Barkley, and GP since he beat those guys in the finals, but we don't know how Ewing and the others you listed would've done against their western conference opponent; assuming that MJ was the lone reason they never won is simply an assumption used to boost his legacy, which btw, doesn't need any boosting.
@@WarrenF19 I’ll agree to an extent, but the same could be said for DeMar DeRozan. There really aren’t any players who truly boosted their legacies against Jordan in his prime. One could argue Isiah Thomas, but nobody after MJ hit his stride.
LeBron has allowed Dirk Nowitzki, Stephen Curry, Kawhi Leonard, Kevin Durant, Nikola Jokic, Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce to all cement 1st Ballot Hall of Fame résumés against him. Doesn’t mean he isn’t one of the greatest to do it, but his greatness is nowhere near the level of Michael Jordan’s.
@@WarrenF19 DeRozan wouldn't won anything even without Lebron, so that was a very weak player to choose in this video only to put up Lebron.
@@Marlowe10100 I agree 100%. I only mentioned MJ cuz I've been hearing that BS for years. It's also funny how people bring up LeBron when I mention MJ's legacy; I'm a Pistons fan, so idgaf about either guy lol. They both ended my teams best runs
You and Jimmy Highroller are great at these videos!!!!
Many super star careers were wrecked because of Jordan. Barkley is one of the most outstanding examples. And along with Karl Malone you can include John Stockton.
And if Bird had stayed healthy who knows but Jordan would have been one of those super stars who were prevented from getting a ring until later in the 90s.
Umm, no. Jordan outperformed Bird completely. Bird had a superior team. In 1990s, Bird was old and had an inferior team. Jordan was alot more experienced and had a vastly superior Bulls team.
Bird had no chance
Jordan already outperformed Larry Bird. Lebron James outperforms Larry Bird. Jokic outperforms Larry Bird.
@@legacytv2453 except Bird's team prevented Jordan's team from getting a ring until the 90s. So its exactly as I said. If Bird was healthy he would not have retired until maybe late 90s. And who knows, maybe Jordan's team would have finally beat the Celtics but it's also possible it might have been more of the same.
Also, Bird helped his team go to the Eastern conference finals his rookie year, then win the championship his second year. You can't say it was just because he had a good team because the mid to late 80s Celtics team didn't exist at that point. So both were inexperienced but Bird was able to win early on but Jordan wasn't?
You could list off a ton of players that may have won championships without MJ in the picture: Reggie Wayne, Patrick Ewing, Charles Barkley... the list goes on.
1:52 already, there’s a problem with your analogy. Boston was the roadblock. It wasn’t one player and Larry Bird. This revisionist history that make individuals the sole reason the team wins is getting out of hand.
We need to talk about Steph Curry ruining James Hardens legacy. Beats him in 4 out of 5 years in the playoffs. 2018&2019 Rockets have a good chance to win the finals. If harden has two finals appearances as the main superstar even without winning either one I think it changes his legacy more positive than what it is right now. Being 1 game away from the finals in 2018 as the MVP with a chance to play Lebrons weakest cavaliers team post heat era rockets are probably the favorites. In 2019 although warriors and rockets met in the 2nd round. I still think the rockets make it to the finals and beat the trailblazers that got swept by the warriors that year in the conference finals. That was the year Harden averaged 36 ppg. I don’t think they beat the raptors but 2 back to back finals appearances as the main superstar raises his legacy tremendously. Karl Malone is viewed as a top 20 player because of 2 back to back finals appearances and for being an all time great scorer. I think harden would have that exact same legacy and be viewed as a top 20-25 player if Steph Curry didn’t exist.
Robert Horry ruined Steve Nash's career. And Bill Russell ruined a lot of star's legacy, Wilt, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor.
This is the type of thing that separates great players from superstar, all-time players. One guy is just far, far more competitive and takes great offence at defeat or even people doubting them. Then they proceed to go on a rampage and want to completely humiliate the other player. It reminds me of what Jordan did in the '92 Finals against Drexler. There were people saying, "Maybe Clyde should be the MVP" and "Clyde is a better 3-pt shooter." That's all it took. And when Barkely won MVP in '93, it essentially sealed his fate against MJ in those Finals also (Jordan had what is widely regarded as the best Finals performance ever). One player looks across the court/field/whatever at another guy and they're like, "Over my dead body... this guy is not beating me. It's not happening." Bird had it, MJ had it, Kobe had it to an extent, he just couldn't control his urges sometimes and would play some awful basketball because of it.
The whole thing reminds me of dirt old Kareem having a horrendous Finals performance in a game and everyone clowning him and saying he should retire, then he came out and absolutely blistered the Celtics the next game. That's what legends are made of.
Jonny is becoming more consistent.
"Absolutely goofy efficiency splits" 💀
Yes, Moncrief was a great, dangerous player, both ends of the court. He wasn't the only great player that Bird, kept from championships. There was Domenique Wilkins, and Reggie Miller. Though he didn't ruin Jordan's legacy, he, and the other Celtics, did postpone it for a couple of years, in a row. There were more, great players, at the time, that were in the western conference, that he denied championships, when he was reasonably healthy, but I will stop with the ones I named, from the eastern conference.
Haven't fully watched this video and I already feel it's worth saying there was no shame in losing to Jordan, Steph, Shaq in LA, or Tim Duncan. Everyone got beat by them.
Yes. I disagree with so many points,on this video. Losing to Jordan is not shameful. Simply having a rivalry with Jordan made many players more famous.
Another great video bro, But I'm curious why didn't you go with al Harford? Instead of damarr when Harford had more of a chance to become an NBA legend, if LEBRON did not stop him. He probably wins a title and would been considered as one best center of his generation and the greatest Hawk.
LeBron has quite a number some star players kept from winning, but I guess nobody was more devastated than DeMar. Horford still found a way to eventually make an impact on a championship team, although losing in the finals while DeMar's career was known for being LeBron's Bonus Round every time they faced each other and hasn't even made a 2nd round appearance since then.
@nicksamp515 I agree with what you're saying, but I think that Al Harford in 2015 had a legitimate shot at win 🏆. They 4 all stars in that team and the second best record in the NBA. If not for lebron who knows an experience, atlanta team like that, could have maybe won the championship against the warriors
Hakeem and Patrick Ewing was rough 😭
Ewing would be a top 7 center for sure if he could’ve won a ring but he couldn’t beat Jordan and lost his golden opportunity vs the rockets
@@788lakers JORDAN WHO ?? SHOW ME 1 GAME MJ WIN VS BIRD
@@788lakers Ewing had lost so much of his athleticism by the 90s due to knee injuries. Without the knee injuries he would have smoked Jordan the same way young David Robinson did to the Bulls in the early 90s.
@@PIP...33Most of 1988-1992. ZZZvain you have been at this for years. Everyone knows you never watched any of those games. You dont even like Larry Bird since most oldschool fans say Bird is much better than Lebron.
@@legacytv2453 bird is better than bron but JORDAN IS BRADLEY BEAL. AND U R DERANGED WHO CANT DENY MY FACTS
No one super star ruined another super star's career than Bill Russell did to Elgin Baylor. 😢
Also Jerry west he lost a total of 9x
U could say Steph and Damian Lillard to an extent, with curry winning in 2016,2017 and 2019, without curry blazers could've made the finals in 2019 and Damian Lillard would have more praise. Also curry did lot of this without of further having a negative impact on Dame's legacy
As a Jazz fan, I will never forgive Jordan for what he did to the Jazz. Without him, the Jazz likely have 2 championships and Malone would likely have 1 or 2 Finals MVPs.
Interestingly in Malone’s case, his best playoff series arguably came after both those finals.
In 2000 vs the Sonics, he averaged 30 points on I believe 64% true shooting.
Sure, a first round series vs an opponent that wasn’t anything amazing. But that’s a great statline vs anyone.
Malone deserved worse then what he got I think that’s easily agreed upon
Nope. It was Malone choking. 97 and 98 were both winnable series for y'all when the bulls were at it's weakest but Malone severely underperformed. If he only lived up to his regular season standards, he might've beaten MJ twice. And even without MJ, he'll be struggling with Zo down low and Indy would've given you the L as well.
@@nicksamp515Malone had a kid to take care of. He was seduced
How the Sixers weren’t the #1 or #2 seed, after a season where they had probably the greatest squad of all time, is crazy
Also the person who felt LeBronto the worse was DeWayne Casey!
And before Duncan came along Malone was the hands downbest PF in history. Same with Lebron destroying Larry as the best SF ever. Magic, Mike, and Wilt are safe I believe
Demar had a legacy?? For what, being the worst player of his team during playoffs? He was/is a great regular season scorer, when they let him hit the midrange, but with this modern playstyle, there's no room for midrange specialists during playoffs, that's why people like him, CP3 and Aldridge always fell during playoffs as first/secondary offensive choice
Nah, the legend that ruined Karl Malones career is a 13 year old
To be honest, nba fans never expect Derozan to be a ring contender in Toronto. Toronto got a ring because of Kawhi not Kawhi because of Toronto. This admin included Derozan in the list just to put LBJ into pedestal and to make the quote and quote lebronto effect seems real
Great video
Man please make dpoy video
I mean who should be every year instead of which we had all these years
By the way
Excellent job 👍
sid the squid is so underrated man. glad he finally secured his HOF nod
Michael could be a whole "Star player that ruined the legacy of..." alone. That's a 45 minute video in and of itself.
PLEASE a video on Dream Team 2 (94 FIBA Team)
I've been watching the Game since 1992 .I agree with that list.
Jordan is actually the biggest bully of the 90s in terms of ruining legacies. Malone is only 1 victim, but Jordan also ruined Barkley's, Kemp's and Drexler's legacies.
There is no shame in losing to Jordan. Jordan helps,those players have a "name" among modern fans that only care about Lebron and Curry
These same players couldn't win no other time so what does that tell you 🤔
In the video "The NBA IF Michael Jordan Never Existed" you can see how Malone would be the greatest PF of all time if MJ didn't exist. My conclusion based on that is:
1) MJ is so great that he overshadowed everyone in his winning days
from 1991 to 1998 except from Hakeem who won one of his rings with MJ retired (btw Hakeem is amazing don't get me wrong)
2) Malone is such a great but overlooked player if you think of it ON THE COURT, NOT OFF IT
3) Every great with the name Malone is cursed with eternal unappreciation towards them
4) MJ managed to ruin the Mailman's legacy at the backend of his prime, beating him at the age of 34 and 35(even though he won many scoring titles earlier and that cost Malone as well)
5) Many praise Tim Duncan, LeBron or Kareem for their longevity but not Karl and that's unfair! The man was a superstar at 36 and borderline all star at LeBron's age. Plus, Malone played for 18 years as a clear(for me) no1 option for one franchise (Stockton is great but still). LeBron never had the patience to do that or Kareem while Tim couldn't do that for that long. Give Karl the PLAYER some CREDIT!
Malone was known as a consistent playoff choker that's why he's not as praised as TD, Kareem and LeBron. 97 and 98 were winnable series if he only elevated his game but Scottie and Rodman got to his skin and choked back to back. Those guys you mentioned are in the top 10 all-time for a reason and that's winning. Put those 3 in his position and MJ would've had a finals loss especially in 98 when they're at their weakest.
I don't exactly hear people praising Duncan for longevity (Barry McCockiner of whom argues that the second half of his career is overrated), but point taken.
Well, he didn't choke. He was guarded by 2 of the greatest defenders in history(though Scottie had issues in game 6 1998) and still put up about 24 ppg in these two series combined, with ok efficiency
You should do a Terry Cummings vid. The young TC was something to behold
10:05 - aye ayee 😂 we just gone ignore the face that Sidney just picked dude up at the end slammed y’all pau attention ny guy has strength lmao
First one I thought of when I read the titles was Hakeem ruining David Robinson. He destroyed him so bad, in his MVP season no less, I could never look at him the same again.
His pathetic post-game interview "Most of the time I defended him pretty well..." did the rest. He's so lucky, the Spurs got Duncan or he'd be forgotten...
I agree bro,
for sure Robinson is out of my top 10 list of best centers of all time,
I understand that there are not many players who have been elected DPOY and MVP,
easy to be convinced by Robinson's excellent stats in his prime,
but if you get schooled like that in your prime,
maybe you were good but not good enough
Tbh that's more of a one time beating all the examples mentioend were multiple times in which a player a lost. Also David would go on to get two championships thus fulfilling his career.
hi jonny, great video as always.
I think the most obvious is Elgin Baylor and Bill Russell,
if it weren't for Russell and the Celtics,
we would remember Baylor today as one of the best players ever,
and while we recognize his talent,
he is probably one of the most ignored players in the history of basketball.
In fact,
the legacy of many players has been damaged by the Celtics dynasty
Bob Pettit
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
and also Chamberlain,
but these players like others have won at least one title,
while Baylor never won the ring.
Unfortunately, he retired early in the 1971-72 season due to injury.
and the Lakers first achieved a 33-game regular season streak that year,
and then won the ring 18 years after the last one.
More recently I would say Steve Nash and Tim Duncan,
Nash was MVP twice during that time
and in 2005 and 2007,
years in which the Spurs won the ring,
the Suns had an excellent opportunity to win the title,
and in both cases they lost to the Spurs,
although it is fair to remember that the 2007 series was extremely controversial due to the suspensions following Horry's flagrant foul on Nash.
I also take this opportunity to offer you an idea for a video,
another "what if"
maybe a little bit obvious,
but I'd like to know your opinion,
if the NBA champions,
faced the ABA champions every single season,
who do you think would have won?
I especially would have loved to see Indiana Pacers vs. New York Knicks (1973)
and New York Nets vs. Boston Celtics (1974)
With that said, let me know what you think
Baylor got a ring the yr the lakers won. Not a championship but a ring. Jerry west lost 9x as a player before winning
@@Duck_Dodgers hi mate, I know that, but he missed almost all regular season and didn't play in the playoff, after that year he retired, I don't think even him considered himself that as a title win.
I agree regarding West, but like the other players mentioned before, they won at list 1 title, this saved their legacy in my opinion.
Think about Nowitzki if Dallas didn't have that great playoff run in 2011,
or Moses Malone if he never won in '83 whit Philly
Either way Demar was a greater Raptor than Vince Carter. Thats the respect that needs to be put on his name.....
This might sound apples to oranges but who was better: DeMar or Kyle Lowry? I've heard some say the latter is the best Raptor.
Vince is an important player in their early years and had a good career for himself, but I don't see him considered on that level nowadays.
@fortynights1513 Lowry is the greater Raptor. Resume speaks for itself, plus Kawhi was only there 1 season so the body of work not big enough for it to be him.
Surprisingly enough, most people had Vince as the GOAT Raptor until 2019 happened. Just ignored the fact that Toronto had more success with DeMar than they ever did with Vince even though VC was more talented and his East had 0 Top 10 All‐Time players in it (in their prime).
Johnny, should we really keep calling Tim Duncan a PF, when even he himself and Pop as well said he was a Center all along? You could make a video about it ;) How would he rank among Centers, and how it would put Malone back in best PF position, which is what everybody wants to avoid 😂
It's probably because when Duncan first entered the league. David Robinson was at the center position. And Duncan did play power forward for seven years I think?
Wilt ruined by Russell
West ruined by the Celtics
Barkley, Miller, Malone, Stockton, Ewing ruined by MJ
I would say Jordan ruined Ewing's, Reggie Miller and players on the Cleveland cavaliers teams
Barkley also
No. He pushed their career. People's favorite moments of them often include Jordan. Without Jordan, modern fans jump straight to Lebron James bragging
Tbh MJ could have a full video about ruines legacies.
Malone ruined his own legacy when he impregnated a 13 year old girl.
That's just downright atrocious.
Heeyy jonny whats the name of song in the intro?
Nowadays kids call Jordan's era weak and take shots at his competition because Jordan pretty much bullied the entire 90s decade. The man was so geeat that his teams felt like SUPERTEMS, while at least in 92, 93, and you could argue in 97 and 98 the team around him was worse than the opponent's, but Jordan always pushed the ties in the favour of the Bulls. Now imagine the result of that greatness and dominance being used AGAINST him to claim that he just didn't have a legit competition.
Not every modern day fan is a Lebron fan
He didn't that was always said and known
LeBron got in the way of Paul George as well. If it wasn't for him, PG might've been an NBA champion
Paul George was very young back then and Lebron had a superteam.
@@Marlowe10100 That very young PG was his best version and Indy was a championship team that rivals Miami and Spurs. They could've beaten the Spurs in 2013 as they're all in their peaks that time, but LeBron gave them the L with him having a series of clutch performances in that 7 game battle.
IMO the 2011 finals series kinda ruined LeBron's legacy, no one is talking much about 2007, but losing in such fashion against an underdog (and people still remember Barea or Jet because of this series), especially when making the goat case
Jorden ruined Ewing much worst than Malone. No question about Ewing suffered the most. 6 times he knocked him out in there careers. Don’t count scoring little rather count the ability of championships and Altering legacies. Even a poll said it was Jordan to Ewing
Bill Russell and Jerry West/Elgin bro, with 4/6 rings, the narrative change.
Malone did win to mvips Jonny. Loved the bud
KD joining the 73-9 team made Lebron miss out on 2 rings. Lebron in 17 and 18 was just unstoppable if not for that Olympic team he had to face
It was a team effort tho. We can't say KD or Curry alone ruined LeBron's chances to a 3 peat. But the Warriors certainly killed LeBron's chances on being the GOAT.
Imagine if KD joined Cleveland instead of Golden State. Would he be as hated?
Malone has 2 mvps right? In '97 and '99?
Ah darn. Good catch. Correction is going in the pinned comment. akes the point stronger tbh.
@@jonnyarnettI'm a fan since idk forever? I remember washing dishes while I'm watching a video about harden being compared to kobe much love to your wonderful channel ❤
Thanks man! I appreciate such kind comments after a boneheaded mistake! lol. Idk how I forgot about 99.
@@jonnyarnett maybe because of creating your videos about what if the mvps were given to the best players
@@jonnyarnett please a video on Dream Team 2 (94 FIBA Team)
Russel ruined Wilt legacy should be on the top list.. just imagine Wilt career without Bill Russel?...
They needed each other for greatness. It made both more impressive by going against each other. If you ever look at it usually takes 2 at the same time to bring the true greatness out. In my opinion that's all. People may not agree and I understand just what I've seen through the yrs of watching
Without MJ, Malone has to contend with Reggie Miller. Barkley likely gets a ring. As does Shawn Kemp.
Also, without MJ, we get Pistons VS Lakers(again) in 91.
MJ WHO ?? SHALL I CALL BIRD TO SWEEP HIM AGAIN EVERY YEAR
Kemp would probably be in the Hall of Fame now with a ring.
@@PIP...33Celtics swept the Bulls!
Why didn't the Celtics swept Bulls in 88?
@@Sf75178ZZZain has been commenting like that on Jordan videos for 10 years. I'd say he is just a kid, but he was at that for like a decade.
@@legacytv2453 ya I have seen him a lot, repeating the same thing over and over refusing to listen to any logic
Tbf Jordan pretty much ruined the legacy of most great 90s players
Only issue I have with the Jordan/Malone argument is that outside of the scoring titles, several players had an equal effect on Malone's legacy: Olajuwon, Drexler, and Kemp/Payton all prevented the Jazz from advancing multiple times. Technically Drexler had the biggest impact as he beat Malone's Jazz twice in Portland and a third time in Houston. The Jazz always struggled making the finals, and arguably still could have lost to whatever strong East team they played in the Jordan-less universe.
finally,
I never understood that Jordan/Malone argument,
Karl malone played in the finals for the first time at 34 years old,
if he was so good why the Jazz never been at that level for all the 11 seasons before,
we think about only '97 and 98'
I like Karl Malone and Stockton, but again, if they never get at least one,
they were not good enough
@@stevenmichienzi5046 Those two may not have been good enough, and I've also heard that at least offensively, the scheme the Jazz ran was flawed.
Some argue that there wasn't enough ball movement outside of Stockton until Jeff Hornacek shows up, and that lack of playmaking other than Stockton made their offense predictable.
I feel like it’s gonna be Jason Tatum ruining Joel Embiid, if Tatum could get a mvp or two and a championship or two without Embiid winning, cuz how many teams Boston beat Philly since Tatum was drafted lol
Neither were mentioned, but I could see the argument. Both have had pretty good careers for themselves as is, but yeah, Embiid would be considered much better nowadays if he had a deeper playoff run on his resume than he already has.
This year, the Heat had Giannis running away from the ball in 4th quarters, the same Heat Jokic comfortably dispatched in 5. By making the Heat run look like a fluke I think Jokic gave Giannis' resume a blow (even though it doesn't ruin his legacy)