Not always. I have heard stories from TLM priests who once commented that there were many abuses years ago. For example, one priest couldn't sing the Mass, so he had another priest sing it discretely when he was on the altar. Another priest would take cigarette breaks during Mass. Still, another priest once did snuff during Mass and vomited up the Eucharist.
@@bareit98 yes the Novus Ordo always have these stories - how bad the old days were. When I was nine years old my local priest used to say the Latin mass at 6am and I used to go to the mass each morning at 6 am on my own. I didn’t speak Latin, it was a low mass, it was not beautiful and he was by no means charismatic and yet I was drawn to something in it. It is not about whether it is ‘beautiful ‘ or whether people prefer Latin or English- the mass should be in Latin because that is the language of the Church and the Latin mass and the new mass are completely different. The new mass conveys a different theology and basically implements the changes of Luther and Cranmer . It does away with the Sacrifice and presents a version brought in by Luther to destroy belief in the Real Presence. Traditionis custodes caused me to look at the two after I had read about the changes to the Anglican service by Cranmer.
@@kateguilfoyle5155 These are not just "inbeauties" in the Mass, what I listed are full on liturgical abuses. Remember, the same people who got rid of the Latin Mass were saying it. Don't you think they committed abuse after abuse?
@@bareit98 I’m not saying that these things didn’t occur. I am saying that boomers use these abuses as some sort of rationalisation for the rejection of the two thousand year old liturgy of the Church which contains the essence of the Faith. The logic is: some people didn’t do it right (it certainly was not common and I have my doubts about the veracity), but even given they are true - you then reject the true liturgy because some people abused it? That is bizarre. And, if true, then what does that say about the new mass with all those abuses that we have all seen? That is, that are so common that I doubt there is anyone here who hasn’t seen some of them? Which is precisely why Bishop Barron had to go into defensive mode of ‘oh we can do the new mass so that it is beautiful ‘. And, if you think me calling the traditional mass ‘the true liturgy ‘ is taking it too far, just compare the two liturgies side by side. Catholic crusaders have a video comparing the two - when you look at what is missing you understand why 70% of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence. That difference shows that Bishop Barron can talk about celebrating the new mass so that it is beautiful, but it is not just aesthetics, it goes further than that - it is the content. The new mass is a completely different doctrine, it has abandoned the Sacrifice. The traditional mass shows it up and it shows it up by the fact that people are drawn to it. That is why Pope francis has to destroy it.
@@kateguilfoyle5155 The Novus Ordo mass clearly refers to the Eucharist as a sacrifice, though, and also makes it as clear as possible that it is, indeed, the body and blood of Our Lord.
In my country the bishop and the priests are very strict regarding the Novus Ordo No modern musical hymns, no communion in the hands, no irreverent movements So I did not understand why some westerners hated the Novus Ordo Once I saw the liturgical abuse in the west Honestly I can't blame you
He's not side stepping. He doesn't favour one over the other. Both forms are beautiful. The utmost importance is that we glorify and worship God in mass and participate as one body in Christ.
@@TheVietnameseCatholic that’s not true. Many bishops disobeyed this false doctrine. Pope Francis is not a true pope, our tradition tells us we are to refute heresy.
Young people are hungry for a return to the beauty and Sacredness of the Latin mass. In fact Bishop Barron, they DESERVE THAT. The Church has lost generations of young people. WHY NOT GIVE IT A TRY?????? 🙏✝️☘️
I have been a Confirmation teacher for 32 years a DRE, Youth Minister and every conceivable position in 3 parishes and I am so disappointed in this Bishops (and so many others) lack of leadership and what I consider to be their personal teaching! THE CHURCH stands on the belief of Jesus's teaching. It's beyond sad that this communist infiltrated leadership is leading so many down what I consider the wrong path. Thank God we still have some great priests that are faithful to the church and it's true teachings! Find one, hope they are not stifled and support them through prayer and commitment!
@@lawmaker22 the new motu proprio is out, and it basically returns things to pre-summorum…wish I could post a link to it, but it’s on the Vatican website, and there’s already a lot of analysis of it in Catholic websites
So disappointed in Bishop Barron. Years ago he was a big factor in my conversion and much of his work will always be valuable (Catholism series, etc.). I red-pilled Bp. Barron about a year ago but it was hard going down.
St Pius X So sad to hear people write negatively about Bishop Barron, just because he is not an enthusiastic supporter of the Latin Mass. I grew up with the Latin Mass. We knew it by heart, just not what it meant. Unless I was forced to, I would not attend a TLM. It was like we were completely disconnected from the priest and what was going on. He was saying prayers with his back to us, in a language we didn’t understand. I do not miss it for a second. I love the Novus Ordo - the Priest facing us, in the language we actually understand. Of course, I also attended the Divine Liturgy which was in the vernacular and had always been in the vernacular. So everyone in the Church understood what was being said ( except those of us whose parents did not speak Ukrainian to us - only to their parents, old people and their contemporaries ). So the vernacular had been used for centuries, before Vatican II.
@@pjsmith4369 The problem then, is not the Mass, but the collosal failure of the clergy to pass down the faith and the immense wisdom and knowledge of the Church. Michael Voris has been saying this for a decade now. Your comment is basically "Instead of learning and doing the research (2000 years of tradition), I prefer the lazy way of the Novus Ordo". And people wonder why the church is in such a decline. Sigh
It can be. Many/most of the time it is done against the letter and spirit of Vatican II. I've seen Novus Ordo masses done just as reverently, respectfully, and beautifully as TLM.
@@marcokite That's because whenever TLM is done, it's done by people who really care about reverence. It doesn't have anything to do with the actual letter of how Novus Ordo is supposed to be done. When the same priests and parishes who do TLM do NO, then it is also as beautiful as TLM.
David Mehnert 0 seconds ago Truth is .. I get queasy around ANYONE who insists on the monopoly they have on it, particularly if + or + far too often, there are some serious skeletons in the local .. abasement
It's not just about beauty, but how to please God in the better way. NOM has reduced dramatically the prayers that praise God and replace them with social and anthropological praise. They (the bishops) never say why has been that change made. They just never talk about it.
The NOM or mess as it’s been aptly described, was invented by five or six protestant theologians and Fr. Anibale Bugnini, later unmasked as a member of a Masonic lodge. Enough said.
“Bringing beauty in various forms including liturgical “....... perhaps more dancing and gyrating on the alter??!!!!!Watering down the faith and immersion into politics IS NOT evangelization!!!!! The laity NEEDS TO HEAR AND SEE truth and tradition!!!!! Give us TRUTH Bishops- Be BOLD and stand up for the faith- enough politicking !!!!!!!
Basically saying, "we don't need extraordinary Mass", we have Novus ordo... that's why we see so many liturgical abuses in our church, modernist thinkers...
Clearly you’ve never read any of Bishop Barron’s writings on evangelization and liturgical catechisms. He’s a Vatican II man, but he said the Extraordinary Form just isn’t part of his thinking when it comes to evangelization. I disagree that he side stepped the question at all. I just think he didn’t say what you wanted him to say.
@@damienmontfort6746 There's a whole 1500 before Trent. If we want to be traditional, let's go back before St. Thomas Aquinas and to the Patristic age as well. The Eastern Catholics/Orthodox have done this well, but we Roman Catholics, not as much. That was, in part, the intention of the Council (for any orthodox/traditional minded person).
@@damienmontfort6746 Again, if you actually, honestly read Bishop Barron, you can see he knows better than most in the world, the intention of the Council and the documents that came out of it.
We are not the audience at mass, God is the audience. A mass is a mass no matter the form we prefer. Poor catechesis or outright rebellion against God is the reason anyone would refrain from attending mass in the name of not liking the form in which a mass is being said. I don't discriminate between NO and TLM. All I need to attend mass is "Catholic Church" and the name of the diocese written on the signboard.
True, what you said. Both NO and TLM are valid forms but the TLM is much more efficient at bringing out the fullness of Catholic beliefs and reverence for our Lord. The layman asked Bishop Barron about the TLM and the bishop turned it into a question about beauty. It is not only a question of beauty, which is subjective, but a question of how well the liturgy emphasizes Catholic beliefs. NO with communion in the hand particularly has resulted in a reduction in belief in the real presence. There are many other ways in which the TLM is superior but Bishop Barron wants to de-emphasize TLM without appearing to be hostile to it.
What do you mean by "God is the audience?" The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is about the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. We are in Calvary where Jesus dies on the cross.
@@blankblank8292 We are the ones doing the worshiping while the one being worshiped is our audience. God sits on his throne in his majesty while we join the church in heaven in representing the once-for-all sacrifice of his Son. In one of his short videos tiled "Bishop Barron on the Mass" the bishop describes the Mass as the supreme form of play.
While I prefer the Latin Mass, I agree with bishop barron when he says the norvus ordo mass can be done beautifully. A good example of that is the masses at EWTN. They are, in my opinion the perfect example of what a Norvus Ordo mass should be like. Not to mention, at least from my experience, most of the people that go to the traditional latin rite mass are very angry and unwelcoming. .
I agree due to the pandemic I have been watching te EWTN masses and they’re done very well. I believe every NO mass should have that reverence and beauty. I also attend an Anglican Ordinariate mass which was also very reverential and beautiful.
We just watched an Easter mass at the Washington DC Basilica. On EWTN. It went on and on and on and on and on. A show of people rather than a commemoration of Jesus’ sacrifice and resurrection. Weirdos dressed in cobalt blue, a reader with blonde leather hair that looked like a hat. Such a performance.
Bishop Barron. How about stressing to do both liturgies to their best expression to help ppl get as close to the real presence of Jesus Christ? Take out the flufh extraneous pieces like liturgical dance during the Liturgy of Eucharist and focus on the dignity, respect, reverence and ultimate sacrifice of the holy eucharist be it in the vernacular NO or Latin High Mass? Why is that asking too much?
Reading some of these comments and I'm rather saddened. I'm a Latin Mass or Divine Liturgy preferring Catholic, but the Pharisaical attitude we have towards our bishops is absolutely abhorrent. We would all do better if, when we see something we don't like and we're about to judge our bishops as lukewarm, cowards, etc, that we would bite our tongue, lest it strikes us down and condemns us to hell. Have we no fear of God!? For our Lord has said, "You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not kill. And whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire" (St Matthew 5:21-22). Rather, when tempted, let us pray, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner" and BE SILENT. Our prayers, silence, and charity are constructive to renewal in the Church, but our calumny and our pride is destructive to Church renewal. We are part of the problem! Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner. I am guilty of these same things. May our Lord forgive me. Forgive me brothers.
Yes the Novus Ordo can be offered beautifully; but even at it's best the fact remains that it's an inferior liturgy in comparison to the Tridentine mass because the words of the rubrics are not as explicitly Catholic. It does not espouse the reality of what takes place at Holy Mass as well as the Tridentine mass does.
@@angelicdoctor8016 Is what I'm saying true or false? Isn't that what you should be disputing? Even Scott Hahn said the TLM is objectively superior to the Novus Ordo.ua-cam.com/video/GUvwllaZyIc/v-deo.html
@@Johannes3006 So Scott Hahn is in error. Is that really a surprise to you? What does "Even Scott Hahn" mean? Don't get me wrong - I appreciate his contributions to re-presenting long known Church insights into biblical typology, etc. Scott hasn't brought anything substantial to the table, not already known. Scott I think punches above his weight, but seriously Jonathan - you can't really think Scott is the heavyweight that Francis is. Francis has the keys to the kingdom. Scott has empty pockets in comparison. The TLM, while good, does not reflect adequately the mission and vision of Vatican II. In that very important way, it is better to say the TLM is objectively inferior. Pope Francis has now proclaimed this: "The liturgical books promulgated by Saint Paul VI and Saint John Paul II, in conformity with the decrees of Vatican Council II, are the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite." That's the way forward - the reverent celebration of the Ordinary Form. Rejecting Francis' directive is of course a sin, so Scott will need to walk back his statement, since he is bound by Lumen Gentium 25, which indicates without exception that "This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking."
I’m genuinely confused how any of you have a problem with his response. He answered the question well, and acknowledged that there is a problem with the liturgy having lost its beauty.
we are a refugee family. We fled the "gay pride mass" in our old parish. We fled the hateful empty sermons where the priest admonished those who cherish their catholic faith. A priest who forbade the rosary before mass. A parish council who told us that they and only they make decisions about the liturgy. We're refugees led by summorum pontificum to a beautiful parish in a small town in England where a holy priest offers the old mass and adoration. The pope gave implicit permission to the local ordinary to go after this holy priest in a most pernicious way. The pope's own biographer wrote up a nasty diatribe in the "catholic media" against him. They intend to come after us next. Who God will protect us? Not the pope, not the good bishop Barron...not even my conservative bishop. The holy priest complains- he left anglicanism because there was no room for catholic minded faithful anymore. Now he is told there is no room for his catholic faith in that church! Which bishop will give even the slightest bit of warmth, love and compassion to us refugees? All I hear is they condemn us as "anti-pope francis" or "anti novus ordo." Bishop Barron is outwardly a gentleman, nicely spoke but heartless-- he becomes a church bureaucrat right before my eyes!!
@@marriedkiwi PLEASE stop this nonsense.....Did Abraham complain Against God when God demanded the Sacrifice of Isaac??..... You act as if the Holy Spirit is sleeping for 50 years after Vatican 2.....You act as if the Holy Spirit FAILED for 50 years.....it's 50 years of Vatican 2 and Novus ORdo....And now you telling me that the Holy Spirit is a failure for 50 years??
One of the most beautiful things about the Mass is not only the Mass itself but the people and the priest, The charity the kindness of its members and their fellowship.
Maybe the question should be which forms are more likely not to be done beautifully. In other words which form is likely to be done in a way that will not provide a proper liturgical expression worthy to God.
"nothing against (the old mass) particularly". Here lies the problem. He is a coward . He knows the truth but does not like to upset his admirers. This is really hard to stomach - I don't mind full blown modernists reducing the heritage and tradition to a line but to hear this- its truly sickening
what is sickening is traditionalist spreading the heresy that the Holy Spirit FAILED in Vatican 2.....This is a form of Atheism...As if the Holy Spirit fell asleep...after 50 years...The Holy Spirit is still sleeping....Imagine if Abraham disobey God when God demanded the sacrifice of Isaac?? If Abraham is Obedient, then why can't Traditionalist be obedient to the Demands of Vatican 2?🙄
This not so much a response to Bishop Barron but rather to his superiors in the church. Some people prefer Mozart to popular music even though most people today listen to pop. Is there something wrong with them as well? Do they need counselling? Should we forbid classical music to be heard from now on even though it brings so much joy and uplifting to many? How about the ballet? Should we crush it to make room only for modern dance? Or fine wine, maybe we should only drink beer from now on. For centuries, the only time the poor got a bit of a break was when they entered into splendid cathedrals to worship and for a while at least found themselves lifted up and out of their grinding poverty. Maybe it gave them hope for the majesty that awaited them in heaven.
No H Mass was ever more full of beauty & reverence THAN THE LATIN MASS BISHOP BARON. I’m very disappointed at your comment. I’m 87 & miss the beauty of the LATIN H.MASS ,THE CHURCH NOW MOSTLY DEVOID OF STAINED GLASS WINDOWS,AWSOME WOODCARVING,& most of all when the Blessed Sacrament is locked in a side room were we can’t even visit. ITS TIME FOR ALL OF US TO GO BACK TO BISHOP SHEEN & his take on the Holy Latin Mass ,the sacred liturgy. Etcetera. It’s all too sad 😢. Wake up Cardinals,Bishops, Priest & TEND YOUR SHEEP AS JESUS INSTRUCTED 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
If you listen to what the bishop is saying as him speaking subjectively, I think it will make more sense. The novus ordo is where is personal focus is, so the question about the extraordinary form didn't really apply to him. Not all church leaders are qualified for extraordinary form so their primary concern is novus ordo as well. Imo it's a good thing that there is some variety of communal expressions within the Roman rite
all you are saying is that most leaders have their heads in the sand so cannot be expected to raise it to heaven. You really think the bishop is so naive? I've talked to him personally many years ago- he knows the fruits of the sacred form...he knows the rubrics and that it is the true catholic prayer. But the bishop digresses to polity of the USCCB.
And this is just one more example of why Bishop Barron, like most of the bishops in that conference with him, are totally irrelevant in the minds of many young Catholics- young priests and young lay faithful.
@Uchiha I believe it was intended to bring the Mass to more people, more nations. Although it may look like it intended to appease Protestant, I believe it is not the main purpose. I am a Catholic and I continue on going and supporting the ordinary mass. God bless!
I can't seem to understand the passive aggressive attitude of the TLM lovers. We are not the audience at mass, God is the audience. A mass is a mass no matter the form we prefer. Poor catechesis or outright rebellion against God is the reason anyone would refrain from attending mass in the name of not liking the form in which a mass is being said. I don't discriminate between NO and TLM. Once I see "Catholic Church" written on a signboard and I can identify it with a Diocese, I'm entering and worshiping. Period.
This is the kind of situation where people read into something that is not there. You accused the good bishop, someone who is owed respect, of sidestepping a question. First of all, the question was not very precise. It was a broad question which leaves liberty to how it is answered. Second of all, the question was taken seriously and responded to. Bishop Barron gave his position with utmost clarity - that his focus is to bring beauty in every expression of liturgy, both through the old form and the new form. How can you claim that he side stepped it? I hope you know that it is gravely sinful to bear false witness.
I think he answered the question. Novus ordo is more fitting where congregations are large like in Africa, Asia, Latin America and parts of North America and Europe. Latin is not the only language God speaks.
SEVENTH SESSION CANON XIII.-"If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema." COUNCIL OF TRENT
Because the millions that have left the Church have done so because the Mass isn't in Latin and the priest faces the congregation? Is it that simple? Ok
@@marcokite >liturgical reform isn’t my focus. >It is done right when it is made beautiful. >the novus ordo can and should be made beautiful. >there is no dichotomy between the novus ordo and the tridentine mass.
The Bishop has no use for the Traditional Latin Mass. He doesn’t like the Theology of the TLM. He thinks the Mass should be community oriented, or man-centered. He’s all about Ecumenism. The main reason why the New Mass was invented.
It's not hard to find examples, here on youtube and elsewhere, of the N.O. being done badly and even sacraligiously, but where, O' where are the comparable videos of poor, bad or sacraligious celebrations of the TLM? If any such videos exist, I've never seen one. If you know of any, I'd like to check it out.
who decides what is sacrilegious??....Even King David Danced Naked in front of the Ark of the Covenant in 2 Samuel 6:14-23....or let me remind you of the psalms.. (Psalm 150) 1 Praise the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens. 2 Praise him for his acts of power; praise him for his surpassing greatness. 3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet, praise him with the harp and lyre, 4 praise him with timbrel and dancing, praise him with the strings and pipe, 5 praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals.
The novus ordo mass could be done more reverently, ditching the New Christy Minstrels music and the muslim gestures but, it still can't approach the beauty and reverence of the Traditional Latin Mass. Mic drop. Orémus Y'all.
His Excellency very flatly said beauty needs to be brought foward whether that be liturgically or otherwise. It's very obvious that he is coming from a Modern take of the Church; that's not a dig at him, that's just how he was formed so naturally what he wants to see is priests elevate the Modern Mass to standards that would reflect the Modern Mass' inherent beauty. His statement is being quite diplomatic to the Traditional Mass; I think as Traditional Catholics it would behoove us to act in greater charity to a Bishop that clearly sees the beauty of the Traditional Mass as he states that he is not opposed to it. I think in a lot of cases, Bishops in his situation have probably not sat down to really evaluate the Traditional Mass likely due to time constraints. He is part of one of the largest American diocese that requires multiple bishops to Administer. That is why his position is not so clear cut at first glance. As other people have stated, this issue is not so much about beauty. It is about right worship. If we do not fix the modern liturgy we will have to wander in the desert. That's the consequence of poor catechesis.
I don’t think he side stepped anything. He said he isn’t attached to the TLM and wants to bring beauty into the liturgy. That isn’t what you wanted to hear, but it’s an answer.
Be careful with this title that you do not follow ways “the accuser and the scatterer,” especially for a mere “30 pieces of silver” or “views.” The people of God who are the living Body of Christ, of which you are also called to be, are given the wisdom to know the meaning of Bishops words. His words run contrary to this judgemental title. He speaks of bringing beauty to the expressed liturgy, not comparisons and judgement.
Really??? Then I guess that only external signs of faith are important for you and that you've probably been to veeery few NO masses. It's not hard to find a parish where mass is beautiful. Besides I'm sure a lot of people go to Latin mass and don't consider it beautiful. Beauty is not something we should focus on. Would you say one person is better than the other cause they're more beautiful?
If many well read young people only want the mass of Pope St. Pius V is that not a great thing? Why respond to their desire by denying and minimizing it?
He most certainly did not "sidestep" any question - he wasn't asked a particular question. You Trads should cool it - always on the lookout for trouble and ready to criticize. It's one of the reasons attending the Extraordinary Rite can be dangerous. I have observed that attendees get a know-it-all, superiority attitude.
Please read Summorum Pontificum 2007...bcs this answer is just hopless. Question of that gentleman isn't about Novus Ordo at all. It is about Vetus Ordo
What is his main concern? Closed churches, desecration of our churches, alters and the Eucharist? The burning of churches, sex scandles, James Martin, No hell? St Faustina pray for us!
Bishop Barron gets criticized because he isnt a Rad Trad, but I think he is just a very reasonable person. My diocese has only one Latin Mass church so its not like we can all pack up and go there. We should be thankful for the Novus Ordo and not complain about it.
Perhaps Bishop Barron needs to watch the Mass of the Ages documentary... Stripping down the Sacrifice of the Mass in not BEATIFUL at all. Besides, he needs to review SACROSANTUM CONCILIUM and bring back AdOrientem Worship, Latin in the Liturgy, Gregorian Chant, High Altars and not Tables, Communion Rails,Veiling .... How about TABERNACLES back in the center on the Altar and not on the side or " Special rooms" for Our Blessed Lord . Bring the beauty of the Sacred! The Mass of the Apostles and the Saints, beautiful Churches and not those which are UGLY AS SIN! Let's pray for Bishop Barron's change of heart.
If it can be done beautifully, then why are most of the NO churches empty? And usually when the NO mass is “beautiful” it’s usually because they borrow many prayers or aspects of the Ancient Rite, such as the so-called bells and smells. Unfortunately most of the elements of the NO are Protestant and they can’t get away from that, but then again Pachapapa Bergoglio loves Luther, so maybe his recent motu propio practically abolishing the Ancient Rite is his final push to bring the Church into the New World Religion.
the empty churches is a problem in the West...Not in Africa or Asia....Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.....🙄 It's 50 years and SSPX is still as small as an Insect..... While Charismatic Catholicism is already 100 Million members all over the world in the past 50 years.....How can you explain that??... 🙄
What does it cost the church to continue the TLM? Nothing. Practically nothing. Yes they would need to look deeply into the liturgy and teach some Latin. What will it cost to continue the NO mass? I think the church will implode. The current loss of faith because of the NO mass is staggering.
The fact he omitted the Mass in extraordinary form, is a sure signal we should all start to attend. Christ said the road to Heaven was narrow, this man claims no one is in hell. In my book that's heresy
the Holy Spirit already rejected the TLM....Vatican 2 and the Popes says so....Let the Holy Spirit do his work....Stop spreading the Lies that the Holy Spirit is sleeping even after 50 years of Novus Ordo Mass of 1.2 Billion Catholics...
@@amazingshop2298 When TLM was confirmed on the Trident council, pope Pio V wrote "let be condemned anyone who would try to forbid this rite". It was acknowledged officially by the power and authority of the Church. Nowadays acts are merely announcements. Neither the Vatican II or traditionis custodes were acknowledged as the "ex Cathedra" teaching. So it's You who is spreading lies about TLM being rejected by the Holy Spirit, not me.
Don't like the latin mass. I don't feel touched by it, I don't understand it. It had its place in history, and its time to move on. I love the Novus Ordo mass.
The problem with The novus ordo Is that it rarely lives up to the way it should be Celebrated. Ad orientem And kneeling on the tongue Should be the norm In this Would go a long way to helping. Gregorian chant and Polyphony Would really help as well. ... vestments should be changed. Most of the time they just look like bed sheets from over somebody In the novus ordo
I have a problem with praise going out for Martin Luther by Bishop Barron. Didn't he say destroy the Liturgy and you will destroy the Catholic Church? I thought Vatican II was supposed to be pastorial it seemed like a they were trying to rid us of our Catholic identity
Correction to my above comment didn't Martin Luther say destroy the Liturgy you destroy the Mass. Kind of like the marxist pulling down statues . What happened the TLM was supposed to be said in perpetuity, no permission was needed by any priest to say it. I can't recall what pope declared it was supposed to be said in perpetuity. I guess perpetuity doesn't mean forever. The No Mass does not compare to the Traditional Latin Mass, the No. Seems more protestant. A old Msgr. told me the liturgy would be in the vernacular in my time, but they wouldn't be able to get rid of The TLM because it would bring the wrath of God down on them if they tried. He also told me with the changes to the Mass error would enter from the highest places, a falling away from the faith.
Truth, beauty, goodness go hand in hand. Therefore, beauty is more precise than the subjective differing opinion of fallible individuals. Meanwhile, the enduring teaching of Sancta Ecclesia Mater is embedded in the TLM but wishy wash under the Novus Ordo implementation (and also much of its rubrics).
Beauty comes from the correlation of form to the truth (faith). So the concern is not beauty (as if it can be considered alone in itself), but which form conforms better to the truth of the Body and Blood of the Second Person of the Trinity. If the form will be revealing and respecting this Truth, then it will be beautiful. But it seems that turning your back to the tabernacle does opposite... hence it cannot be beautiful.
So he pretty much said nothing. All I heard, Novus ordo novus ordo and novus ordo
You hear what you want to hear
Alan Smithee I hear what I hear from every single bishop in the USA. Bla bla bla blah blah. NOTHING!
poor Bishop Barron fell into the classic trap, no one EVER says the TLM “can be done beautifully” because IT ALWAYS IS
Not always. I have heard stories from TLM priests who once commented that there were many abuses years ago. For example, one priest couldn't sing the Mass, so he had another priest sing it discretely when he was on the altar. Another priest would take cigarette breaks during Mass. Still, another priest once did snuff during Mass and vomited up the Eucharist.
@@bareit98 yes the Novus Ordo always have these stories - how bad the old days were. When I was nine years old my local priest used to say the Latin mass at 6am and I used to go to the mass each morning at 6 am on my own. I didn’t speak Latin, it was a low mass, it was not beautiful and he was by no means charismatic and yet I was drawn to something in it. It is not about whether it is ‘beautiful ‘ or whether people prefer Latin or English- the mass should be in Latin because that is the language of the Church and the Latin mass and the new mass are completely different. The new mass conveys a different theology and basically implements the changes of Luther and Cranmer . It does away with the Sacrifice and presents a version brought in by Luther to destroy belief in the Real Presence. Traditionis custodes caused me to look at the two after I had read about the changes to the Anglican service by Cranmer.
@@kateguilfoyle5155 These are not just "inbeauties" in the Mass, what I listed are full on liturgical abuses. Remember, the same people who got rid of the Latin Mass were saying it. Don't you think they committed abuse after abuse?
@@bareit98 I’m not saying that these things didn’t occur. I am saying that boomers use these abuses as some sort of rationalisation for the rejection of the two thousand year old liturgy of the Church which contains the essence of the Faith. The logic is: some people didn’t do it right (it certainly was not common and I have my doubts about the veracity), but even given they are true - you then reject the true liturgy because some people abused it? That is bizarre. And, if true, then what does that say about the new mass with all those abuses that we have all seen? That is, that are so common that I doubt there is anyone here who hasn’t seen some of them? Which is precisely why Bishop Barron had to go into defensive mode of ‘oh we can do the new mass so that it is beautiful ‘. And, if you think me calling the traditional mass ‘the true liturgy ‘ is taking it too far, just compare the two liturgies side by side. Catholic crusaders have a video comparing the two - when you look at what is missing you understand why 70% of Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence. That difference shows that Bishop Barron can talk about celebrating the new mass so that it is beautiful, but it is not just aesthetics, it goes further than that - it is the content. The new mass is a completely different doctrine, it has abandoned the Sacrifice. The traditional mass shows it up and it shows it up by the fact that people are drawn to it. That is why Pope francis has to destroy it.
@@kateguilfoyle5155 The Novus Ordo mass clearly refers to the Eucharist as a sacrifice, though, and also makes it as clear as possible that it is, indeed, the body and blood of Our Lord.
The way he says novus Ordo “can be done beautifully” has hints of “because it usually isn’t”
In my country the bishop and the priests are very strict regarding the Novus Ordo
No modern musical hymns, no communion in the hands, no irreverent movements
So I did not understand why some westerners hated the Novus Ordo
Once I saw the liturgical abuse in the west
Honestly I can't blame you
@@MZONE991 which country is that?
@@crobeastness
Jordan
@@MZONE991 This is more so a problem in the Americas... I hear France does similar.
Two great descriptive.
Banal and tedious.
We should bring back TLM which is reverential and solemn 🙏💗. It’s a Holy Mass indeed.
It is back. Your city probably has an FSSP parish near you.
It’s the only mass I care about…
Problem with NO is not just it's been poorly celebrated, the issue is the prayers are dumbed down and most importantly de-catholicized/protestantized.
He's not side stepping. He doesn't favour one over the other. Both forms are beautiful. The utmost importance is that we glorify and worship God in mass and participate as one body in Christ.
The clown Mass is quite exquisite.
Except he banned the Catholic mass in his diocese.
What koolaid are you drinking. “He doesn’t favor one over the other”. Your lying to yourself
No he didn't. He was forced to do it by Traditionis Custodies as it stated that a parish church cannot be a TLM location.
@@TheVietnameseCatholic that’s not true. Many bishops disobeyed this false doctrine. Pope Francis is not a true pope, our tradition tells us we are to refute heresy.
Young people are hungry for a return to the beauty and Sacredness of the Latin mass. In fact Bishop Barron, they DESERVE THAT. The Church has lost generations of young people. WHY NOT GIVE IT A TRY?????? 🙏✝️☘️
I have been a Confirmation teacher for 32 years a DRE, Youth Minister and every conceivable position in 3 parishes and I am so disappointed in this Bishops (and so many others) lack of leadership and what I consider to be their personal teaching! THE CHURCH stands on the belief of Jesus's teaching. It's beyond sad that this communist infiltrated leadership is leading so many down what I consider the wrong path. Thank God we still have some great priests that are faithful to the church and it's true teachings! Find one, hope they are not stifled and support them through prayer and commitment!
Bringing beauty to the liturgical form: clapping, hover boards and weird dances.
Thank you Pope BXVI for summarum pontificum
Which has just today been undone by Pope Francis
@@GrOglo really? Where is that news?
@@lawmaker22 the new motu proprio is out, and it basically returns things to pre-summorum…wish I could post a link to it, but it’s on the Vatican website, and there’s already a lot of analysis of it in Catholic websites
@@lawmaker22 Traditionis Custodes
I am happy to say that my church does the Novus Ordo beautifully and reverently. That is a RARITY indeed
It's not a possibility.....its offensive to christ
@@jean-paul7251 Yeah no. I love the Latin mass too but you're just flat out canonically and theologically wrong
Not possible.
@@Thoughtworld1984 Oh ye of no humility
So disappointed in Bishop Barron. Years ago he was a big factor in my conversion and much of his work will always be valuable (Catholism series, etc.). I red-pilled Bp. Barron about a year ago but it was hard going down.
Your story is mine as well
Me too, brother. I really don't understand.
Same here. When he called Martin Luther a "mystic of grace" I knew Barron was a problem.
St Pius X So sad to hear people write negatively about Bishop Barron, just because he is not an enthusiastic supporter of the Latin Mass.
I grew up with the Latin Mass. We knew it by heart, just not what it meant.
Unless I was forced to, I would not attend a TLM. It was like we were completely disconnected from the priest and what was going on. He was saying prayers with his back to us, in a language we didn’t understand.
I do not miss it for a second. I love the Novus Ordo - the Priest facing us, in the language we actually understand.
Of course, I also attended the Divine Liturgy which was in the vernacular and had always been in the vernacular. So everyone in the Church understood what was being said ( except those of us whose parents did not speak Ukrainian to us - only to their parents, old people and their contemporaries ).
So the vernacular had been used for centuries, before Vatican II.
@@pjsmith4369 The problem then, is not the Mass, but the collosal failure of the clergy to pass down the faith and the immense wisdom and knowledge of the Church. Michael Voris has been saying this for a decade now. Your comment is basically "Instead of learning and doing the research (2000 years of tradition), I prefer the lazy way of the Novus Ordo".
And people wonder why the church is in such a decline. Sigh
Why do we hold this man up as an example of Catholicism?
I no longer do once he banned the Catholic mass in his diocese.
”Can be done beautifully.” Is he even serious?
Actually it can and is.
It can be. Many/most of the time it is done against the letter and spirit of Vatican II. I've seen Novus Ordo masses done just as reverently, respectfully, and beautifully as TLM.
@@gorbshal2598 - yes the 'unicorn masses'. Whereas the TLM is ALWAYS done beautifully.
@@marcokite That's because whenever TLM is done, it's done by people who really care about reverence. It doesn't have anything to do with the actual letter of how Novus Ordo is supposed to be done. When the same priests and parishes who do TLM do NO, then it is also as beautiful as TLM.
The question is not about beauty or reverence per se. It's about doctrinal truth, or to put it simply, Truth. Beauty and reverence result from it.
David Mehnert
0 seconds ago
Truth is .. I get queasy around ANYONE who insists on the monopoly they have on it, particularly if + or + far too often, there are some serious skeletons in the local .. abasement
Like all bishops, he's just a company man who runs with the herd.
It's not just about beauty, but how to please God in the better way. NOM has reduced dramatically the prayers that praise God and replace them with social and anthropological praise. They (the bishops) never say why has been that change made. They just never talk about it.
The NOM or mess as it’s been aptly described, was invented by five or six protestant theologians and Fr. Anibale Bugnini, later unmasked as a member of a Masonic lodge. Enough said.
“Bringing beauty in various forms including liturgical “....... perhaps more dancing and gyrating on the alter??!!!!!Watering down the faith and immersion into politics IS NOT evangelization!!!!! The laity NEEDS TO HEAR AND SEE truth and tradition!!!!! Give us TRUTH Bishops- Be BOLD and stand up for the faith- enough politicking !!!!!!!
The Traditional Latin Mass always seems to be last in line for consideration and the first to be cancelled.
Basically saying, "we don't need extraordinary Mass", we have Novus ordo... that's why we see so many liturgical abuses in our church, modernist thinkers...
Clearly you’ve never read any of Bishop Barron’s writings on evangelization and liturgical catechisms. He’s a Vatican II man, but he said the Extraordinary Form just isn’t part of his thinking when it comes to evangelization. I disagree that he side stepped the question at all. I just think he didn’t say what you wanted him to say.
@@damienmontfort6746 There's a whole 1500 before Trent. If we want to be traditional, let's go back before St. Thomas Aquinas and to the Patristic age as well. The Eastern Catholics/Orthodox have done this well, but we Roman Catholics, not as much. That was, in part, the intention of the Council (for any orthodox/traditional minded person).
His thinking? His teaching?
@@damienmontfort6746 Again, if you actually, honestly read Bishop Barron, you can see he knows better than most in the world, the intention of the Council and the documents that came out of it.
We are not the audience at mass, God is the audience. A mass is a mass no matter the form we prefer. Poor catechesis or outright rebellion against God is the reason anyone would refrain from attending mass in the name of not liking the form in which a mass is being said.
I don't discriminate between NO and TLM. All I need to attend mass is "Catholic Church" and the name of the diocese written on the signboard.
True, what you said. Both NO and TLM are valid forms but the TLM is much more efficient at bringing out the fullness of Catholic beliefs and reverence for our Lord. The layman asked Bishop Barron about the TLM and the bishop turned it into a question about beauty. It is not only a question of beauty, which is subjective, but a question of how well the liturgy emphasizes Catholic beliefs. NO with communion in the hand particularly has resulted in a reduction in belief in the real presence. There are many other ways in which the TLM is superior but Bishop Barron wants to de-emphasize TLM without appearing to be hostile to it.
It is rare that I like a comment this much. You are 100% correct.
What do you mean by "God is the audience?"
The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is about the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. We are in Calvary where Jesus dies on the cross.
@@blankblank8292 We are the ones doing the worshiping while the one being worshiped is our audience. God sits on his throne in his majesty while we join the church in heaven in representing the once-for-all sacrifice of his Son. In one of his short videos tiled "Bishop Barron on the Mass" the bishop describes the Mass as the supreme form of play.
Bishop said "I have nothing against the Latin mass it can be very beautiful too.'
That's just damning with faint praise. He obviously has no use for the TLM.
What a joke; 'can'? 'can'?? It always is, unlike the N.O.
While I prefer the Latin Mass, I agree with bishop barron when he says the norvus ordo mass can be done beautifully. A good example of that is the masses at EWTN. They are, in my opinion the perfect example of what a Norvus Ordo mass should be like. Not to mention, at least from my experience, most of the people that go to the traditional latin rite mass are very angry and unwelcoming. .
Here! Here!
Perhaps it’s because your too liberal
I agree due to the pandemic I have been watching te EWTN masses and they’re done very well. I believe every NO mass should have that reverence and beauty. I also attend an Anglican Ordinariate mass which was also very reverential and beautiful.
We just watched an Easter mass at the Washington DC Basilica. On EWTN. It went on and on and on and on and on.
A show of people rather than a commemoration of Jesus’ sacrifice and resurrection. Weirdos dressed in cobalt blue, a reader with blonde leather hair that looked like a hat. Such a performance.
As someone who has gone to the traditional Latin rite mass for a couple years now in my experience most of them are very nice and normal people.
Bishop Barron. How about stressing to do both liturgies to their best expression to help ppl get as close to the real presence of Jesus Christ? Take out the flufh extraneous pieces like liturgical dance during the Liturgy of Eucharist and focus on the dignity, respect, reverence and ultimate sacrifice of the holy eucharist be it in the vernacular NO or Latin High Mass? Why is that asking too much?
Wow a Bishop has nothing against the Latin Mass!! Oh he mist be a saint.
Reading some of these comments and I'm rather saddened. I'm a Latin Mass or Divine Liturgy preferring Catholic, but the Pharisaical attitude we have towards our bishops is absolutely abhorrent. We would all do better if, when we see something we don't like and we're about to judge our bishops as lukewarm, cowards, etc, that we would bite our tongue, lest it strikes us down and condemns us to hell. Have we no fear of God!? For our Lord has said, "You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not kill. And whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire" (St Matthew 5:21-22). Rather, when tempted, let us pray, "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner" and BE SILENT. Our prayers, silence, and charity are constructive to renewal in the Church, but our calumny and our pride is destructive to Church renewal. We are part of the problem! Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner. I am guilty of these same things. May our Lord forgive me. Forgive me brothers.
Yes the Novus Ordo can be offered beautifully; but even at it's best the fact remains that it's an inferior liturgy in comparison to the Tridentine mass because the words of the rubrics are not as explicitly Catholic. It does not espouse the reality of what takes place at Holy Mass as well as the Tridentine mass does.
your view is exactly why the TLM is now rightly suppressed
@@angelicdoctor8016 Is what I'm saying true or false? Isn't that what you should be disputing? Even Scott Hahn said the TLM is objectively superior to the Novus Ordo.ua-cam.com/video/GUvwllaZyIc/v-deo.html
@@Johannes3006 So Scott Hahn is in error. Is that really a surprise to you? What does "Even Scott Hahn" mean? Don't get me wrong - I appreciate his contributions to re-presenting long known Church insights into biblical typology, etc. Scott hasn't brought anything substantial to the table, not already known. Scott I think punches above his weight, but seriously Jonathan - you can't really think Scott is the heavyweight that Francis is. Francis has the keys to the kingdom. Scott has empty pockets in comparison. The TLM, while good, does not reflect adequately the mission and vision of Vatican II. In that very important way, it is better to say the TLM is objectively inferior. Pope Francis has now proclaimed this: "The liturgical books promulgated by Saint Paul VI and Saint John Paul II, in conformity with the decrees of Vatican Council II, are the unique expression of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite." That's the way forward - the reverent celebration of the Ordinary Form. Rejecting Francis' directive is of course a sin, so Scott will need to walk back his statement, since he is bound by Lumen Gentium 25, which indicates without exception that "This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking."
At least he didn't say, "Ahem...the 'Ordinary Form' you mean?"
"Nothing against it really " ????........ Thankyou for keeping us updated.....
He sidesteps the question about the Latin Mass, just as he ALMOST ALWAYS side hides his own pectoral cross.
Shocking!
I’m genuinely confused how any of you have a problem with his response. He answered the question well, and acknowledged that there is a problem with the liturgy having lost its beauty.
we are a refugee family. We fled the "gay pride mass" in our old parish. We fled the hateful empty sermons where the priest admonished those who cherish their catholic faith. A priest who forbade the rosary before mass. A parish council who told us that they and only they make decisions about the liturgy. We're refugees led by summorum pontificum to a beautiful parish in a small town in England where a holy priest offers the old mass and adoration.
The pope gave implicit permission to the local ordinary to go after this holy priest in a most pernicious way. The pope's own biographer wrote up a nasty diatribe in the "catholic media" against him. They intend to come after us next. Who God will protect us? Not the pope, not the good bishop Barron...not even my conservative bishop.
The holy priest complains- he left anglicanism because there was no room for catholic minded faithful anymore. Now he is told there is no room for his catholic faith in that church!
Which bishop will give even the slightest bit of warmth, love and compassion to us refugees? All I hear is they condemn us as "anti-pope francis" or "anti novus ordo." Bishop Barron is outwardly a gentleman, nicely spoke but heartless-- he becomes a church bureaucrat right before my eyes!!
@@marriedkiwi PLEASE stop this nonsense.....Did Abraham complain Against God when God demanded the Sacrifice of Isaac??..... You act as if the Holy Spirit is sleeping for 50 years after Vatican 2.....You act as if the Holy Spirit FAILED for 50 years.....it's 50 years of Vatican 2 and Novus ORdo....And now you telling me that the Holy Spirit is a failure for 50 years??
@@amazingshop2298 How old are you?
Prayers to the shepherds that they allow the flock will always be able to receive the Latin mass.
As usual, Bishop von Baltha. . . I mean Barron doesn't answer the question, disrespects the guy asking the question, and commits to nothing.
NO is not even called a mass but a celebration.
One of the most beautiful things about the Mass is not only the Mass itself but the people and the priest, The charity the kindness of its members and their fellowship.
Maybe the question should be which forms are more likely not to be done beautifully. In other words which form is likely to be done in a way that will not provide a proper liturgical expression worthy to God.
"nothing against (the old mass) particularly". Here lies the problem. He is a coward . He knows the truth but does not like to upset his admirers. This is really hard to stomach - I don't mind full blown modernists reducing the heritage and tradition to a line but to hear this- its truly sickening
what is sickening is traditionalist spreading the heresy that the Holy Spirit FAILED in Vatican 2.....This is a form of Atheism...As if the Holy Spirit fell asleep...after 50 years...The Holy Spirit is still sleeping....Imagine if Abraham disobey God when God demanded the sacrifice of Isaac??
If Abraham is Obedient, then why can't Traditionalist be obedient to the Demands of Vatican 2?🙄
This not so much a response to Bishop Barron but rather to his superiors in the church. Some people prefer Mozart to popular music even though most people today listen to pop. Is there something wrong with them as well? Do they need counselling? Should we forbid classical music to be heard from now on even though it brings so much joy and uplifting to many? How about the ballet? Should we crush it to make room only for modern dance? Or fine wine, maybe we should only drink beer from now on. For centuries, the only time the poor got a bit of a break was when they entered into splendid cathedrals to worship and for a while at least found themselves lifted up and out of their grinding poverty. Maybe it gave them hope for the majesty that awaited them in heaven.
We can reasonable hope the Novus ordo can be done beautifully
I think paint by numbers can be done very beautifully indeed.
I will take him for his word that he has nothing against the Latin Mass but time will tell.
It sounds like he really didn’t answer the question
No H Mass was ever more full of beauty & reverence THAN THE LATIN MASS BISHOP BARON. I’m very disappointed at your comment. I’m 87 & miss the beauty of the LATIN H.MASS ,THE CHURCH NOW MOSTLY DEVOID OF STAINED GLASS WINDOWS,AWSOME WOODCARVING,& most of all when the Blessed Sacrament is locked in a side room were we can’t even visit.
ITS TIME FOR ALL OF US TO GO BACK TO BISHOP SHEEN & his take on the Holy Latin Mass ,the sacred liturgy. Etcetera.
It’s all too sad 😢. Wake up Cardinals,Bishops, Priest & TEND YOUR SHEEP AS JESUS INSTRUCTED 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Why has it never been an option to just do the traditional mass in English (or the vernacular)?
If you listen to what the bishop is saying as him speaking subjectively, I think it will make more sense. The novus ordo is where is personal focus is, so the question about the extraordinary form didn't really apply to him. Not all church leaders are qualified for extraordinary form so their primary concern is novus ordo as well.
Imo it's a good thing that there is some variety of communal expressions within the Roman rite
all you are saying is that most leaders have their heads in the sand so cannot be expected to raise it to heaven. You really think the bishop is so naive? I've talked to him personally many years ago- he knows the fruits of the sacred form...he knows the rubrics and that it is the true catholic prayer. But the bishop digresses to polity of the USCCB.
Barron does not want to be part of thid stupid controversy.
And this is just one more example of why Bishop Barron, like most of the bishops in that conference with him, are totally irrelevant in the minds of many young Catholics- young priests and young lay faithful.
What? He is the most popular upon the youth lol.
@Uchiha I am a millennial. I like him and Fr. Mike Schmitz.. and I've been to Traditional mass, I'll pass.
@Uchiha I believe it was intended to bring the Mass to more people, more nations. Although it may look like it intended to appease Protestant, I believe it is not the main purpose. I am a Catholic and I continue on going and supporting the ordinary mass. God bless!
I can't seem to understand the passive aggressive attitude of the TLM lovers. We are not the audience at mass, God is the audience. A mass is a mass no matter the form we prefer. Poor catechesis or outright rebellion against God is the reason anyone would refrain from attending mass in the name of not liking the form in which a mass is being said.
I don't discriminate between NO and TLM. Once I see "Catholic Church" written on a signboard and I can identify it with a Diocese, I'm entering and worshiping. Period.
@Uchiha and? No respect for Vatican 2 or continuity of teaching?
The extraordinary form is bringing beauty to the fore. Why did you ban the Catholic mass in your diocese Barron?
This is the kind of situation where people read into something that is not there. You accused the good bishop, someone who is owed respect, of sidestepping a question.
First of all, the question was not very precise. It was a broad question which leaves liberty to how it is answered. Second of all, the question was taken seriously and responded to. Bishop Barron gave his position with utmost clarity - that his focus is to bring beauty in every expression of liturgy, both through the old form and the new form. How can you claim that he side stepped it? I hope you know that it is gravely sinful to bear false witness.
I think he answered the question. Novus ordo is more fitting where congregations are large like in Africa, Asia, Latin America and parts of North America and Europe. Latin is not the only language God speaks.
May I suggest Taylor Marshall’s book?
SEVENTH SESSION CANON XIII.-"If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema." COUNCIL OF TRENT
Because the millions that have left the Church have done so because the Mass isn't in Latin and the priest faces the congregation? Is it that simple? Ok
That wasn’t a side step. That was a direct answer.
It was a direct side step.
@@marcokite >liturgical reform isn’t my focus.
>It is done right when it is made beautiful.
>the novus ordo can and should be made beautiful.
>there is no dichotomy between the novus ordo and the tridentine mass.
I don't see how he sidestepped the question here brother. The question was at large about the Liturgy.
"The Novus Ordo can be done very beautifully indeed" The fact that you have to specify that shows how garbage it is lol
It's amazing to watch such an accomplished snake oil salesman in action.
The Bishop has no use for the Traditional Latin Mass.
He doesn’t like the Theology of the TLM.
He thinks the Mass should be community oriented, or man-centered.
He’s all about Ecumenism. The main reason why the New Mass was invented.
It's not hard to find examples, here on youtube and elsewhere, of the N.O. being done badly and even sacraligiously, but where, O' where are the comparable videos of poor, bad or sacraligious celebrations of the TLM? If any such videos exist, I've never seen one. If you know of any, I'd like to check it out.
who decides what is sacrilegious??....Even King David Danced Naked in front of the Ark of the Covenant in 2 Samuel 6:14-23....or let me remind you of the psalms..
(Psalm 150)
1 Praise the Lord.
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.
2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4 praise him with timbrel and dancing,
praise him with the strings and pipe,
5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.
The novus ordo mass could be done more reverently, ditching the New Christy Minstrels music and the muslim gestures but, it still can't approach the beauty and reverence of the Traditional Latin Mass.
Mic drop.
Orémus Y'all.
If it can be done beautifully, why isn’t it? No matter how “reverent” a Novus Ordo mass is, it pales in comparison to the Tridentine mass.
He is not an Apostle of the latter times but a apostate that leads souls to perdition. Look for Marion Priests that St. Montfort speaks of.
Bishop BARON must always speak the truth.........
His Excellency very flatly said beauty needs to be brought foward whether that be liturgically or otherwise.
It's very obvious that he is coming from a Modern take of the Church; that's not a dig at him, that's just how he was formed so naturally what he wants to see is priests elevate the Modern Mass to standards that would reflect the Modern Mass' inherent beauty.
His statement is being quite diplomatic to the Traditional Mass; I think as Traditional Catholics it would behoove us to act in greater charity to a Bishop that clearly sees the beauty of the Traditional Mass as he states that he is not opposed to it. I think in a lot of cases, Bishops in his situation have probably not sat down to really evaluate the Traditional Mass likely due to time constraints. He is part of one of the largest American diocese that requires multiple bishops to Administer. That is why his position is not so clear cut at first glance.
As other people have stated, this issue is not so much about beauty. It is about right worship. If we do not fix the modern liturgy we will have to wander in the desert. That's the consequence of poor catechesis.
Their time is up....
I don’t think he side stepped anything. He said he isn’t attached to the TLM and wants to bring beauty into the liturgy. That isn’t what you wanted to hear, but it’s an answer.
he really did
Be careful with this title that you do not follow ways “the accuser and the scatterer,” especially for a mere “30 pieces of silver” or “views.” The people of God who are the living Body of Christ, of which you are also called to be, are given the wisdom to know the meaning of Bishops words. His words run contrary to this judgemental title. He speaks of bringing beauty to the expressed liturgy, not comparisons and judgement.
He waffled and missed the point.
Over here in Australia, we call that the flick pass
He's always defended the Latin Mass. This is an exception of him bumbling.
Any examples of the Novus Ordo Mass being done “beautifully “? I have never experienced one that could in any charitable way be described as so.
ua-cam.com/video/Ue85zYbVqnU/v-deo.html
Really??? Then I guess that only external signs of faith are important for you and that you've probably been to veeery few NO masses. It's not hard to find a parish where mass is beautiful. Besides I'm sure a lot of people go to Latin mass and don't consider it beautiful. Beauty is not something we should focus on. Would you say one person is better than the other cause they're more beautiful?
If many well read young people only want the mass of Pope St. Pius V is that not a great thing? Why respond to their desire by denying and minimizing it?
He most certainly did not "sidestep" any question - he wasn't asked a particular question. You Trads should cool it - always on the lookout for trouble and ready to criticize. It's one of the reasons attending the Extraordinary Rite can be dangerous. I have observed that attendees get a know-it-all, superiority attitude.
Please read Summorum Pontificum 2007...bcs this answer is just hopless. Question of that gentleman isn't about Novus Ordo at all. It is about Vetus Ordo
What is his main concern? Closed churches, desecration of our churches, alters and the Eucharist? The burning of churches, sex scandles, James Martin, No hell? St Faustina pray for us!
Bishop Barron gets criticized because he isnt a Rad Trad, but I think he is just a very reasonable person. My diocese has only one Latin Mass church so its not like we can all pack up and go there. We should be thankful for the Novus Ordo and not complain about it.
Why be thankful for something that has caused Liturgical Abuse since 1970?
Perhaps Bishop Barron needs to watch the Mass of the Ages documentary... Stripping down the Sacrifice of the Mass in not BEATIFUL at all.
Besides, he needs to review SACROSANTUM CONCILIUM and bring back AdOrientem Worship, Latin in the Liturgy, Gregorian Chant, High Altars and not Tables, Communion Rails,Veiling .... How about TABERNACLES back in the center on the Altar and not on the side or " Special rooms" for Our Blessed Lord . Bring the beauty of the Sacred!
The Mass of the Apostles and the Saints, beautiful Churches and not those which are UGLY AS SIN!
Let's pray for Bishop Barron's change of heart.
If it can be done beautifully, then why are most of the NO churches empty? And usually when the NO mass is “beautiful” it’s usually because they borrow many prayers or aspects of the Ancient Rite, such as the so-called bells and smells. Unfortunately most of the elements of the NO are Protestant and they can’t get away from that, but then again Pachapapa Bergoglio loves Luther, so maybe his recent motu propio practically abolishing the Ancient Rite is his final push to bring the Church into the New World Religion.
the empty churches is a problem in the West...Not in Africa or Asia....Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.....🙄
It's 50 years and SSPX is still as small as an Insect.....
While Charismatic Catholicism is already 100 Million members all over the world in the past 50 years.....How can you explain that??... 🙄
What does it cost the church to continue the TLM? Nothing. Practically nothing. Yes they would need to look deeply into the liturgy and teach some Latin.
What will it cost to continue the NO mass? I think the church will implode. The current loss of faith because of the NO mass is staggering.
“woke” bishops often do
The fact he omitted the Mass in extraordinary form, is a sure signal we should all start to attend. Christ said the road to Heaven was narrow, this man claims no one is in hell. In my book that's heresy
Ofcourse he does...
B Baron is a progressive modernist void of supernatural faith.
It takes a lot of good will and hard work to do Novus Ordo beautifully while it also takes a lot of bad will and effort to do TLM not beautifully
the Holy Spirit already rejected the TLM....Vatican 2 and the Popes says so....Let the Holy Spirit do his work....Stop spreading the Lies that the Holy Spirit is sleeping even after 50 years of Novus Ordo Mass of 1.2 Billion Catholics...
@@amazingshop2298 When TLM was confirmed on the Trident council, pope Pio V wrote "let be condemned anyone who would try to forbid this rite". It was acknowledged officially by the power and authority of the Church. Nowadays acts are merely announcements. Neither the Vatican II or traditionis custodes were acknowledged as the "ex Cathedra" teaching. So it's You who is spreading lies about TLM being rejected by the Holy Spirit, not me.
He is one of the many disappointments in the church today. He is a wasted talent. He is like the other bishops.
Don't like the latin mass. I don't feel touched by it, I don't understand it. It had its place in history, and its time to move on. I love the Novus Ordo mass.
Where's the side step? Sounds like he answered the question to me..
listen again
The problem with The novus ordo Is that it rarely lives up to the way it should be Celebrated. Ad orientem And kneeling on the tongue Should be the norm In this Would go a long way to helping. Gregorian chant and Polyphony Would really help as well. ... vestments should be changed. Most of the time they just look like bed sheets from over somebody In the novus ordo
I have a problem with praise going out for Martin Luther by Bishop Barron. Didn't he say destroy the Liturgy and you will destroy the Catholic Church? I thought Vatican II was supposed to be pastorial it seemed like a they were trying to rid us of our Catholic identity
Correction to my above comment didn't Martin Luther say destroy the Liturgy you destroy the Mass. Kind of like the marxist pulling down statues . What happened the TLM was supposed to be said in perpetuity, no permission was needed by any priest to say it. I can't recall what pope declared it was supposed to be said in perpetuity. I guess perpetuity doesn't mean forever. The No Mass does not compare to the Traditional Latin Mass, the No. Seems more protestant. A old Msgr. told me the liturgy would be in the vernacular in my time, but they wouldn't be able to get rid of The TLM because it would bring the wrath of God down on them if they tried. He also told me with the changes to the Mass error would enter from the highest places, a falling away from the faith.
"Beautifully"? Is that all that there is?
So, if he doesn't give you the answer you wanted, you call it side stepping! I think the bishop handled this
well.
I didn’t know that Joel Osteen was Catholic....
He's talking about the good the beautiful the true. Y'all need to just relax a bit.
Truth, beauty, goodness go hand in hand. Therefore, beauty is more precise than the subjective differing opinion of fallible individuals. Meanwhile, the enduring teaching of Sancta Ecclesia Mater is embedded in the TLM but wishy wash under the Novus Ordo implementation (and also much of its rubrics).
Beauty comes from the correlation of form to the truth (faith). So the concern is not beauty (as if it can be considered alone in itself), but which form conforms better to the truth of the Body and Blood of the Second Person of the Trinity. If the form will be revealing and respecting this Truth, then it will be beautiful. But it seems that turning your back to the tabernacle does opposite... hence it cannot be beautiful.
Robert, non committal answers, such a shame. You are waiting for that red hat to come to you once francis is gone . . . . .
He is Modernist what do you expect
In terms of the Liturgical form The Tridentine mass is A superior. The Tridentine mass takes the worship of god seriously.
Nothing beautiful about the Novus Ordo.
Words