An idea on your kicks not punishing roles enough...make some of the cast become 'disarms' where that dps player loses their dps for 10 sec. or something like that.
@@arthurbreton2853what so on my holy priest that can’t kick gets nuked by that then blamed by the dps for not healing enough ? And the tank just instantly dying because someone didn’t kick ?
Haha at least you would only have DPS to blame! But really though, they could always give priest a kick, or make those spells in a way also stop casting when psychic screamed/kicked
Difference is kicks would have to be on the GCD for that to work properly or everyone would just macro their kick into everything. Dispel works by still taking a GCD even if it doesn't dispel anything.
Not gonna be happen. Can you imagine for PVP? I think Dev team would apply the same coding with PVP too. So, caster in PVP cannot be avoid the kick. It's really suck dude. It need to revert back to be the same as dragon flight when we do CC and mobs get interrupt but for this expansion if you did CC, mobs will be continue cast after CC fall off.
A middle ground would be better, if your kick does not actually interupt anything, its cooldown is reduced by 50% or something. Making it not incur a cd will result in people just spamming their off-gcd kicks until it actually hits something.
The problem is, any type of punishment ends up also punishing the healer, if you reduce DPS because the DPS screwed something up, that fight now takes longer and you need to heal for longer. What they need to do is add buffs for DPS that actually do things right, like a slight dmg buff when kicking something, that includes CCing a mob casting with a stun for example (Even if its not a hard kick).
That will just have the same issue as giving dps debuff. Having the buff will be default and failing to get it will be the debuff. Just how bloodlust isn't a nice bonus, it's a given and the lack of it is a detriment
You're right, there's never going to be a perfect way to make these changes for sure. Gaining some damage or main stat after kicking could be a nice seasonal affix!
@@ssu7653 I think you give people too much credit for how much they actually care about their numbers.....had a 633 warrior and 630 shaman unable to pull over 1mil damage, minimal kicks, minimal defensives ect...I couldnt comprehend how they could be that bad after playing that much.
Few remarks. There is a video from a top M+ healer in which he has some good suggestions. For example don’t do damage but get a debuff of -30% haste. Dps will be much more incentivised to interrupt. A second issue is how interrupts work for pugs. You mention one boss in stone vault with a cast that should be interrupted. It happens often that people waste their interrupt in an earlier stage because two people interrupt at the same time. One solution is communication, but in the current pug world that is not happening. Another solution could be that an interrupt only goes on cd when you actually interrupt something.
Wierd that the evoker dispell works that way but interrupts don't? I've wasted pummel so much people think I don't interrupt at all in dungeons only to realize it has 15 solid seconds where I'm watching the cast bar tick down 😢
You would have to put kicks on the gcd then or else everyone will just macro their kick to every spell and everything will be interrupted all the time.
My 2 cent Make first weekly mythic vault starts at 8+ (as it was in S3 & S4 in DF after calculating the key squish) Gilded starts drops from 6+ (as it was in S3 & S4 in DF after calculating the key squish) Portals at 10+ (as it was in S3 & S4 in DF after calculating the key squish) Remove the Tanks nerfs ((as it was in S3 & S4 in DF after calculating the key squish)) Make any CC counts as interrupts (as it was in S3 & S4 in DF after calculating the key squish)
myth track at +6 like it was in DF S2. but i agree with u DF is the goat. and im playing DF private servers rn while having a sub in retail. just cant play TWW its soo bad
Hi I'm shadowbanned! I love how they do it in Final Fantasy, dps debuff if a mechanic is not evaded/interrupted. Make it HURT their dopamine numbers so they actually pay attention. ;)
i'm not saying i'd like this, but imagine if casters would pick a random dps that has their kick off cd to be the only one that can kick that cast and if they fail they get a nasty debuff/take loadsa dmg. maybe increase cast time to give them a chance to get in range. i'm sure that'll be horrible.. but just imagine it :D
as a tank, I treat patty cake as like my one fucking job on that fight. I never switch target off the boss, and just use cleave to hit the adds. It works fine as long as a dps doesn't kite the fox right into me.
I would like to see something like in Nokhud. Targeted at only dps, and if it’s not kicked, they do 50% less damage and have to chase down a piece of their being/weapon/etc. Maybe some arbitrary puzzle to solve like the Transmitter. As for the kick issue, giving it the dispell treatment would be nice but a bit too strong. If someone uses hard CC like a totem to stop casts, the mobs should be able to recast just like a player, but with an increased cast timer, 30% longer because of a daze or something to that effect.
Oooo your solution is interesting to the kick situation. You're right, it makes sense they can recast, but slowing that down would reward you for stopping it in the first place AND is thematic.
4:15 we call this a learning moment. They either learn that I cannot heal 3 shards instapopping (because i tell them) in an 11 when everyone isn't running personals, or we brick.
Blizzard REALLY need to implement more "Damage Down" mechanics. Like the Skarmorak add mechanic you've mentioned: the power is on the DPS, but the responsibility for failing it falls on the healers. If that mechanic made it so the first stack dealt ticking damage, but made it so if you get a second stack the debuff would transform into a -90% damage done mechanic and you fail the shield phase due to the lack of damage, that would be a clear way to communicate that it was the DPS who failed the mechanic.
2:40 Pretty much *all* of failed mechanics, be it boss mechanics, standing in fire, missing kicks becomes the healer's problem. Now... this is obviously inherent to the healing task and why you are there as a healer, but they should really start looking at ways to penalize the DPS players for playing poorly because currently the burden on most healers is simply too much. I pug all my keys as a healer as well and from my experience I've been hard carrying 80%+ of the DPS out there. I don't have the answers to this problem, but there have been suggestions made already. And for the love of everything that is holy; Blizzard *needs* to fix visual clarity when it comes to ground swirlies. This is even more apparent/ a thing on Holy Pal and Monk (melee healers) when they already have to put down their own ground effect.
I love the ground remark. It's very frustrating and counterintuitive when you get clipped by a swirl that doesn't have a clear edge. And it's so annoying dying to invisible frontals! Make those things GLOW!
The insta kill is a good solution. When I started cc was needed before many pulls. Otherwise everyone knew it would otherwise be a wipe. And it wasn't thought of as "healer sucks"
I personally like it that there is way to recover from groups mistakes by healing trough it. If i cannot heal trough it, i still know that this thing was failed so i got extra work. And so should others. If others dont know and blame healer, they just dumb and i dont care what they say. I very much would hope blizz would not try to change that.
I think what they should have done in mists is this: Once you cleared the room, the first totem in the room becomes active. You then have to find the matching totem. So much easier and it involves the mobs.
This is perfect. You're exactly right. what you incentivize is what people WILL do. the incentives are wrong atm. need to be better aligned to what motivates a dps.
i have always been pretty firm on my opinion on dungeon trash design. Make random targeted bolts do less damage but uninterruptable and give packs a mob that does also uninterruptable aoe damage (Big blast, pulsing aoe or rot). Interruptable casts should be things like shields, or damage reduction auras or heals on the mobs or a cry that pulls adiddtional trash. stuff that wastes your time in a timed environment. There should never be a scenario where Player A gets punished for Player Bs mistake. A System like vulnerability stacks in ff14 would also be great as you sorta mentioned in the skarmorak example. kill a shard and you get a debuff that just instantly kills you if you break another one within the next like 2 seconds. Blizzard even did something like this for the first time on ansurek. if you trigger two poison pools within like the same 1.5 seconds you just wipe. that would work just aswell in dungeons in my opinion, and it would finally teach people how to play mechanics properly early in the learning curve, rather than so late that they have no clue until they are in keys that they have no business beeing in yet for that exact reason.
Tanks Job: Heal, Kick Dispel Healers Job: Heal, Kick, Dispel DPS Job: Do Dmg, Kick They should make kicking just a purely dps role so that tank and healer have a load off their shoulders and the responsibility is divided equally.
yea I am with you when it comes to especially healing low keys. I had a team in Stonevault on my resto druid alt where 2 of my teammates had 100 MILL AVOIDABLE DAMAGE TAKEN (so 200 mill together) each over the whole run. That is honestly incredible, the group was chill and noone said anything but its incredible how ppl just don't avoid mechanics (either they dont care since its healable in low keys anyways or they don't know the mechanic). As a healer I don't stress out since I know I can't do shit if people are playing like that. But when an easy key fails due to stuff like that it honestly is a little bit frustrating.
I can relate to all these thing's. I agree I feel like I get punished sometimes my overall healing is more than the 1st or 2nd place dps dmg and I have a mana pool I have to maintain while they can just keep pulling and missing mechanics making me waste my CDs when I need them for major mechanics & it's not fair I'm being punished.
Taking power away to heal health bars up will only make it worse since the stress is knowing another ability will go out and if they r not at 100 percent , there will be a death. It is really slowing the aoe damage going out so that there is time to heal and not a panic if u leave someone at 80 percent while u use a global for something else.
Fake casts to trick a kick into cooldown is an essential part of pvp gameplay that would be affected by that type of kick change. Probably why it hasn't been done.
I feel like if more casts from mobs were group rot dmg profiles wiuld be more enjoyable to heal through than a web bolt finishing off your shaman who was at 70% after a big group aoe. The 3rd boss of halls from last season was peak healing profile and should be how most healing in this game feels.
i always hope - if someone messes up - he just dies - getting oneshot its the worst!!! if a dps fails - stands in a frontal etc. and surivives with like 5% hp than i have a big task outside all the stuff i alrdy have to do and often the moment i filled his bar - the same dude does something stupid again - or someone else and this has a chance - due to all the (not needed) stress i get (for basicly no reason) - i eat something avoidable myself since a while i use a detail! plugin - showing avoidable dmg - and while i analyse it often after my m+ keys i have to say - like a really big number - no all of it - is due to i had to stand still - to heal someone who took some big not needed dmg also - if they dont die in a onehit often they - or even other group members tend to flame me like it was my fault - because - hey - i had like 0.5 seconds to react to player X stand in a frontal so i can give/sacrifice some of my cds like a life cocons ..... man its getting exhausting - if there are no (big) changes - i will just switch to dps and eat longer search times - or drop wow entirley - im more and more burned out - in a game ....a game................. FUN
To your point (re: speed healers are expected to top players up). Something I've been saying for a while is it feels like they secretly made Grievous a hidden M+ affix. Granted, there's no stacking bleed effect, but the general idea of keeping everyone at 100%, 100% of the time still applies. It's part of the reason why healing just feels exhausting to do. Instead of seeing the affix every few weeks it's present in every dungeon, every week. As a side note, they need to figure out a way to incentivize DPS players to use their utility buttons without making it a healer punishment. The number of internal screams I've experienced running GB on my monk or priest and never seeing a DPS shaman, druid or mage using their decurse this season alone....
22:03 you literally say it right here. These players should learn it. Almost everything you mentioned is not the sole responsibility of the healer. Any good player will play to help the healer, because that makes the whole dungeon easier. Players playing bad doesn’t all of a sudden mean everything is the healers job. The dispels are the only thing I can agree with, because those are attached to certain classes and specs.
You said lots of good stuff. I didnt like the design of most dungeons where one healer has easy time while other suffers extremely, mainly because of dispels and interupts. About dps-its hard to fix them. Usually keys break because they dont do enough damage even if they try. They rotation is much more complex. So probably dungeons should not be about damage, but about working together. How to do that is hard to say.
Think they’d need to massively rework m+ for some of these ideas. Not a bad thing. But the death penalty and timer really emphasises that a single player problem can easily be a group problem. Overall though. I agree with the problem of too much healer responsibility compounded by other players offloading to the healer. Not sure the solution hits the mark though - it’s possible we go too far the other way where healer is back to feeling very inconsequential and invisible. Either nothing we could do or nothing we need to do.
I do agree that too many of these changes would lead to healer-less keys. I guess if they do go that way though, they could always role lock above a certain key level.
The simple solution is not to pug keys where there is no expectation of responsibility as opposed to guild that or dedicated group that will kick bad mechanics from players
i love being able to top people off quickly with one or two heals... good change.. but i think that dps should be more punished for not kicking, like lowering their dps and not just doing dmg.. they also got rid of all the crappy affixes so going in the right direction.. some affixes now are still annoying, but not nearly as bad as it used to be and also you get a bonus for doing it so thats good. a lot of new affixes are party-wide also and not just healer affixes
How would you implement the punishment in dps? Let’s say 3 or 4 mobs are casting at the same time. People will try to find which mob is targeting them and try to interrupt that mob. With the current name plates this will be hard. We would need something as a high light if a mob targets you. Which I would like, but I’m not sure if Blizzard wants to go that way.
@@pickkahandle And afterwards, hear me out, as a pug, we go do synchronized swimming, because at this stage of m+, synchronizing kicks is like synchronized swimming.
Currently there are ways to show who casts are targetting. But if 4 casters cast at the same time, then every player hits their interrupt, maybe two mobs get interrupted, then the other two kicks hit the same targets and go on cooldown. My recommendation is that the other 2 DON'T go on cd since they didn't kick anything, and then those players kick the third and fourth cast
@@LBNinja7 I agree with your proposal in a theoretical way. But I would want to know which mob is targeting me and I would focus on that mob. I wouldn't trust the rest of the party to help me. I sometimes check the stats after a run and most runs I check I did the same number of interrupts as the rest of the group combined. When I saw your video I was positive about your suggestions, but after a while I asked myself will this actually work. I do think it will improve the situation. There are DPS players who value their parses and who will help more with interrupts. But I've also experienced people doing like 150k/200k dps in a +4/+5 who were just watching something on their 2nd screen and didn't help at all with interrupts. I think those people aren't bothered when they get a negative debuff or something. Same with the suggestion about interrupt only going on cd when it interrupts something. I've been proposing this since Dragonflight. I think this will improve the situation, but it won't fix the situation. I think we need more to fix the issue. One option is to police toxicity and punish people for it. Another option is to increase difficulty interrupt wise. So for each keylevel the recast time decreases with a certain percentage to a certian cap. So in a +2 you can do the run if 1 or 1,5 people use their interrupt. On a +10 or maybe a +12 you need everybody to use their interrupts.
@@Dr0Damyen The problem is, the more difficult or complex we try to make the mechanics for interrupt, all it ends up is harder fights. To not put more pressure on healing, a "punishment" would be, if an interrupt is done properly, the fight becomes easier, if not then is either normal or "harder". Like you interrupt this spell, mob gets "dazzed" and take more dmg. Think how nice the warrior spell reflect is, something along those lines.
I honestly think one-shot mechanics are the most frustrating thing as a healer. But at the same time, it’s also rough when people drop to 20% from one hit. I feel like you should be able to easily run keys that give you max gear/vault. Anything beyond that, where it’s just about the IO score, can be pretty stressful. It often feels like people are just chasing score and aren’t actually there for the gear, which some players need for raiding. Just because someone’s a Mythic raider doesn’t mean they’re great at M+ or even enjoy it. And who’s to say their spec is even the best for keys, without relying on something like Augmentation Evoker or buying a boost?
Addition: I also think they really need to take a closer look at balance. My Brewmaster Monk with 630 ilvl gets wrecked in dungeons and ends up needing around 50% of the healer's total output, while Warriors usually don’t need much healing at all. Feels a bit off. And some classes get multiple reworks in just a few weeks, while Brewmaster gets pretty much ignored-probably because fewer people play it.
With Censoring Gears and Choking Waters it's really weird that those spells aren't marked as important by the game (IE Orange Bar on Plater or green bar on default). I think that's why they don't get kicked.
The game, by default, doesn't really have a mechanic to emphasize important spells (for trash). You could easily set up your plater to mark those spells with a different color if you so desire. But I see your point, maybe blizzard could introduce UI elements to help DPS players understand important kicks....( if they even have kick bound). The problem with those spells is; if they target the healer (and they often do) then the entire party suffers and is at risk of wiping because there is only 1 healer. Whereas if it lands on a DPS then, first of all, you only lose about 30% DPS overall and more importantly, a healer can insta dispell it to negate it completely. It's a perfect example of why this is stupid. Maybe they could just make it so that they cast never targets the healer or tank.
@@zerodivided3676 I’m pretty sure it does have a mechanic for marking them as important though. I haven’t used default nameplates in a while to be fair but I’ve seen people who do on streams and the important spells for them were marked as green. For me on plater they’re marked orange. Couple of examples: Drain Fluids in NW, Harvest Essence in Mists, Howling Fear in Stonevault, Twisted Voice in CoT. I can try using default nameplates and report back, but in my defense I think a majority of players above +5s are probably using Plater or ThreatPlates. Choking Waters, Stinky Vomit, Censoring Gears, Web Bolt are all examples of things that really need to be locked but are NOT marked as important even by plater.
Tanks need to have the ability to do 80% of the damage a DPS can do, in single target and AOE, and healers need to have the ability to do at least 60% of the damage a DPS can do. The keys will speed up, questing will be much easier and good healers can express their skills on the DPS charts as well as the HPS charts. Let tanks and healers blast.
Yeah I'm not meaning how it was in dragonflight where everything did so much damage that they would one shot you. I mean specific mechanics that are meant to be done one way, that only punish the healer when failed
as a pug healer, thank you for using your platform like this! It's been brutal for us also i disagree, dps do NOT have problems as bad as us(dps mains crying over spilled milk tbh); theres a reason tanks and healers play dps when they want to chill xD
issue with needing to only kick and other stuns dont help is that ... this change is targeted at the highest rank players, but pugging suffers cuz of it since in pugs you cant ever coordinate the kicks properly
I really think Blizzard wants us to start hopping in discord with pug groups, but tbh that shouldn't be expected. When I just want to sit down and do weekly keys, last thing I want to do is join a disc lol
When I watch your streams or anyone else's the thing that always boggles me is how a group where everyone knows the dungeon can be healed with 700k at a +10 while I'm in +6s doing 900k-1 mill and still not timing because as you say, everybody's errors become my problem. It's exhausting.
Mobs can do demoshouts, disarms, mindgames or mechanics if dps wont kick and then theyre damage done heals mobs etc.... etc.... by doing that like of things wont punish healers that much. Theres also shit load of mechanics where you need to run all the time and heal at same time. As holy priest that is just horrible because there arent aoe heals but practically you need to hard cast. Bring seed back !
Dangggg I forgot to mention this! I meant to mention how making movement during damage a mechanic is bad design because it punishes some specs WAY more than others!
From the perspective of a healer, I just call this unnecessary overhealing, which is fine from time to time, but it just seems like it happens many times in a single pack, so then as a healer you feel like you have no agency over who remains alive, let alone my hands hurt too ffs.
I feel like there is too much overlap with the roles in general. Too much passive healing comes from the tank and dps. Now, the tank could keep this for their self to make tanks more self-sufficient. Dk and dh of course would be best at it, then PP and Guardian a little less, and PW and BrM the least. DPS would have no passive healing or leech. They could still hard-cast, but it'd be miniscule. Also, remove the regen healing out-of-combat. Healers would have way more to heal, but it wouldn't always be the "heal or everyone dies" style of healing. Tanks should not have to do so much dps. That's for the dps to do. They could lower tank dps and raise their threat. This isn't a huge deal, but it seems every season that a lot the meta is determined by how much dps a tank does. But i think tank and healer should have similar dps if there is nothing for the healer to heal atm. Of course, the healer would be lower overall at the end because the healer has to heal at times. And the Dmg dealers do dps. If ya wanna be a dps that is more of a support, then go Aug. Honestly, i wouldn't mind if we eventually moved in a direction where every group needed a "support dps" like Aug, but blizz would need way more variety in that category. Aug alone isn't enough to justify that idea yet.
Whoever is handing out mechanics, casts and their overall frequency to the mob packs and bosses, needs to take a chill pill. There is also a big problem with the cooldown of players kicks and stops and the cooldown of the mobs abilities. I'm out of everything to help all the time. And the mobs just recast so fast. It is pretty much just luck or close to impossible to control these packs in pugs even if everybody is trying their best to help. Healing is not perfect right now, less fun for sure, but it's not that bad i think.
I tank. interesting listening to things from the point of view of my partners. I druid tank, so I might try switching specs and healing some just to get a feel for how it feels for healers. I don't agree with you about the changes you would like to see. I think they would basically all make the game feel worse. But I do hear your overall message that as a healer you feel like you have too much responsibility for keeping the group alive. Maybe DPS needs to have more ways to be responsible for their own health bar.
like your ideas for personal responsibility consequences for dps, and well, all players. Reminds me of the boss in Vault of the Wardens that would put your ability on CD for 10s.
It really is too much to ask. Why should they use one global to live when the healer could use their external on them, plus 3 globals to top them up? /s
DPS only care about damage. If they mess up a mechanic they should get a 90% damage nerf and it should be very clear that this person has this buff. Like a large cursed skull over their head.
The puzzle is so funny because I already have to do everything. The DPS are doing, and then also heal them through their many mistakes, and now I have to also solve the puzzle too while still doing that? Well, you’re still making all your mistakes? Jokes on you I don’t even use an add on for the puzzle. I just like puzzles.
No no no! Dps, pick up your pitchforks. I'll say it. Your job is easy, too easy. Compared to the responsibility of the tank and healer, it isn't distributed evenly. Tanks have the most responsibility, imo. Healers 2nd (some dungeons and some fights, they have the most) again, imo. But dps get away with doing nothing but their rotation at a majority of key levels. Low keys, they can ignore mechanics entirely and be saved by the healer. They can go all the way from +2s to +8s and never use a kick or stop. That can be saved by the healer. Then you get to higher keys where they haven't learned to use their defensives or interrupts and die to a Web Bolt because they have a massive dot on them called Ravenous Swarm. Another way to tell dps have by far the easiest job, when a healer or tank wants to relax and run a key, what's the role they queue up as? That's right, let me turn off my brain and play dps. I think your ideas are solid distributing group responsibility, but I think blizzard also has to make it more apparent to the player for the tools they have. Blizzard needs to either bring back proving grounds or make a tutorial to show how their abilites interact with dungeon mechanics. Or if someone dies with a defensive available, it says "YOU DIED" in big letters across your screen and then shows all their defensives that are available with descriptions from the tooltip. Then make mechanics straight up kill someone.
My rule of thumb if 3 kicks are missed pre first boss i leave. That group doesnt deserve that key level. end of story call it toxic but im not wasting my time for people who cant do their job.
Understand where you are coming from, but it's still dogshit mentality. "We could still easily time this but since I don't deem you worthy I will leave" gtfo of your high horse. It's a video game.
I'd agree with the points you made in here, but I would say that the more overarching problems in m+ for us as healers are being made significantly worse by the fact that season one has just a really terrible pool of dungeons. Stonevault is one of the single worst/most broken dungeons in the history of the game. I avoid it at all costs. City of Threads the same. Dawnbreaker is full of bugs and DISGUSTING overlap on the 1st and 2nd bosses. Total no-go for me. Necrotic Wake sucked in Shadowlands, it still sucks now. Grim Batol was famous for how insanely overtuned it was. It really sucks when more than half the dungeons in one season are just gouge-your-eyes-out bad. And DPS players wonder why healers are leaving the game.
Blizz needs to remove the 'Death Tax' and must revert the changes to interrupts and kicks. People don't realize just how big of a change the 'kick nerf' was. It impacts every other aspect of the key. Players have told me that they believe that they will overlap their kick with other players or use a 'stop' that isn't a real kick and the caster just goes on machine gun cast mode. So why bother trying to kick. Thats the problem, they have developed a 'why bother to try to kick' attitude. Revert the changes back to s4 of DF. That's when people used their interrupts. I left this comment in the first minutes of watching this, so I didn't know you were going to cover it. Glad we're on the same page kinda.
Haha I'm glad too! I agree, the kick change was MASSIVE and not a lot of people knew it at first. Also deaths are punishing enough, NO ONE was asking for the tax to be upped!
i think the main problem is tanking and healing beeing just a support role and because they are support roles there is tons of downtime. tanking feels like passing the ball to the dps people so they can score/have fun. for example in the dungeon grim batol there are 4 dangerous monster types you have to be aware of as a tank. the rest of the dungeon is gather, have aggro,kick and wait for the other people to have fun. healing has tons of downtime aswell where you just follow dispell and cast chain lightning. aslong as those roles are just support roles less people will be interested in them.
@@termintot4645 i dont think you fully read my comment. im saying people dont like those roles because of the downtime and the downtime happens because they are support roles. are you saying people play support roles because they like downtime? not doing anything 40% of the dungeon?
I think what you're saying would be fixed by the Time to Top section. If you spend more of your time getting health bars topped, your healing is just as relevant but more Healing based
Tanks and healers are the primary roles. DPS just speed up the run. I'm mostly joking, but it's just to point out that those roles are an entirely different MINDSET. That's why "Vengeance" didn't fix tank shortages. During the life of the mechanic, if the tank wasn't top dps, he was doing something wrong. How did that work? Well, there was a rush of new "tanks", but most of them were dps players who either wanted faster queues or just to top the meters. They loved topping the meters, but a LOT of them basically ignored the actual tank mechanics and responsibilities, so these tanks just caused a lot of wipes, especially in harder content. They didn't last, and so it wasn't long before the tank population was right back where it started. No, the thing that burns out most tank/healers is the distribution of RESPONSIBILITIES. Almost any responsibility failed by a dps becomes something the healer or tank is now supposed to "fix", where any responsibility missed by a tank/healer is a wipe. THAT is what burns out tanks/healers. Until you find a fix for that, it will always be the small subset of players who want to feel like they have to "carry" groups who stick with the role of tank/healer.
Honestly, the healer role should just be removed, we should just play tank + 4 dps with more self heal and defensive for each dps, that way everyone is responsible for it's own survavibility
@@ssu7653 because in a dungeon you have to set a pace gather things. if you have 5 people able to do that the run becomes less coordianated without comps. those roles ensure certain responsibilities. gather pace route will be the job of 1 dps then. that role is harder to agree upon if there is no shield symbol asigning it for you. with friends it would be great tho you run in different directions meet up in the middle and nuke. since healer is just a glorified healing potion and dispell, you could drop the role by just making people survive more.
Well said i agree with almost 90% of what you said . Butbi think you make it a lil bit complicated. In my opinion just get rid of half of avoidable dmg mechanic add more rot type dmg going on more unavoidable dmg is good and replace the avoidable dmg mechanics mostly with one shots . And make kicks triger half cd when fail to interrupt. I pretty much feel better to be ready to a hard heal check that i know lts coming compare to some medium dmg burst dou to missing mech by dps players out of blue
An idea on your kicks not punishing roles enough...make some of the cast become 'disarms' where that dps player loses their dps for 10 sec. or something like that.
@@dariasraven yes!!! And when the cast target the heal make it do 100% less healing, and for the tank make it an increase damage taken
@@arthurbreton2853what so on my holy priest that can’t kick gets nuked by that then blamed by the dps for not healing enough ? And the tank just instantly dying because someone didn’t kick ?
@@leondavies9735 Priest would need a kick obviously. And the tank can kick the spell that target them, so if they take the debuff it's thier fault
Haha at least you would only have DPS to blame! But really though, they could always give priest a kick, or make those spells in a way also stop casting when psychic screamed/kicked
If a DPS loses their DPS for 10 secs, they will likely quit the game after 3 tries or so. A 2-3 secs would suffice. Decent idea though.
[13:00] Making kicks work like dispels regarding overlaps would be amazing! Great idea!
Appreciate it! One other person mentioned it should only be that way in PVE and couldn't agree more!
Difference is kicks would have to be on the GCD for that to work properly or everyone would just macro their kick into everything. Dispel works by still taking a GCD even if it doesn't dispel anything.
Not gonna be happen. Can you imagine for PVP? I think Dev team would apply the same coding with PVP too. So, caster in PVP cannot be avoid the kick. It's really suck dude. It need to revert back to be the same as dragon flight when we do CC and mobs get interrupt but for this expansion if you did CC, mobs will be continue cast after CC fall off.
A middle ground would be better, if your kick does not actually interupt anything, its cooldown is reduced by 50% or something. Making it not incur a cd will result in people just spamming their off-gcd kicks until it actually hits something.
The problem is, any type of punishment ends up also punishing the healer, if you reduce DPS because the DPS screwed something up, that fight now takes longer and you need to heal for longer. What they need to do is add buffs for DPS that actually do things right, like a slight dmg buff when kicking something, that includes CCing a mob casting with a stun for example (Even if its not a hard kick).
Longer fights do hurt the healer, but a hurting the ego (damage number) of a DPS goes along way to to incentivise better behavior ;)
@@ssu7653 You are still going to hurt the ego if other people get a dmg buff and they don't :D
That will just have the same issue as giving dps debuff. Having the buff will be default and failing to get it will be the debuff.
Just how bloodlust isn't a nice bonus, it's a given and the lack of it is a detriment
You're right, there's never going to be a perfect way to make these changes for sure. Gaining some damage or main stat after kicking could be a nice seasonal affix!
@@ssu7653 I think you give people too much credit for how much they actually care about their numbers.....had a 633 warrior and 630 shaman unable to pull over 1mil damage, minimal kicks, minimal defensives ect...I couldnt comprehend how they could be that bad after playing that much.
Few remarks. There is a video from a top M+ healer in which he has some good suggestions. For example don’t do damage but get a debuff of -30% haste. Dps will be much more incentivised to interrupt. A second issue is how interrupts work for pugs. You mention one boss in stone vault with a cast that should be interrupted. It happens often that people waste their interrupt in an earlier stage because two people interrupt at the same time. One solution is communication, but in the current pug world that is not happening. Another solution could be that an interrupt only goes on cd when you actually interrupt something.
Wierd that the evoker dispell works that way but interrupts don't? I've wasted pummel so much people think I don't interrupt at all in dungeons only to realize it has 15 solid seconds where I'm watching the cast bar tick down 😢
I think kick not going on cd will mess up with fake casting in pvp, so it's not exactly the same as dispel
@@TsvetanDimitrov1976 that's why it should only apply to pve.
You would have to put kicks on the gcd then or else everyone will just macro their kick to every spell and everything will be interrupted all the time.
@@XAn0nymousX0 Or just make it so you can only gain that grace refresh once or twice every 10 seconds. Third overlap and you go on full CD
My 2 cent
Make first weekly mythic vault starts at 8+ (as it was in S3 & S4 in DF after calculating the key squish)
Gilded starts drops from 6+ (as it was in S3 & S4 in DF after calculating the key squish)
Portals at 10+ (as it was in S3 & S4 in DF after calculating the key squish)
Remove the Tanks nerfs ((as it was in S3 & S4 in DF after calculating the key squish))
Make any CC counts as interrupts (as it was in S3 & S4 in DF after calculating the key squish)
myth track at +6 like it was in DF S2. but i agree with u DF is the goat. and im playing DF private servers rn while having a sub in retail. just cant play TWW its soo bad
the only reason i have the sub is for t2 sets anniversary event
Hi I'm shadowbanned! I love how they do it in Final Fantasy, dps debuff if a mechanic is not evaded/interrupted. Make it HURT their dopamine numbers so they actually pay attention. ;)
Stupid idea. That will not help healing at all.
@@MrkraZzz what you talking about, it would help, now only tanks and healer can go do M+ because apparently DPS are just not needed anymore.../s
They should use the mists patty cake mechanic on the dps.
Love it
i'm not saying i'd like this, but imagine if casters would pick a random dps that has their kick off cd to be the only one that can kick that cast and if they fail they get a nasty debuff/take loadsa dmg. maybe increase cast time to give them a chance to get in range.
i'm sure that'll be horrible.. but just imagine it :D
as a tank, I treat patty cake as like my one fucking job on that fight. I never switch target off the boss, and just use cleave to hit the adds. It works fine as long as a dps doesn't kite the fox right into me.
It is good to hear u my mate!
Appreciate it!!
I would like to see something like in Nokhud. Targeted at only dps, and if it’s not kicked, they do 50% less damage and have to chase down a piece of their being/weapon/etc. Maybe some arbitrary puzzle to solve like the Transmitter. As for the kick issue, giving it the dispell treatment would be nice but a bit too strong. If someone uses hard CC like a totem to stop casts, the mobs should be able to recast just like a player, but with an increased cast timer, 30% longer because of a daze or something to that effect.
Oooo your solution is interesting to the kick situation. You're right, it makes sense they can recast, but slowing that down would reward you for stopping it in the first place AND is thematic.
This video needs to be posted in the wow subreddit. So many good ideals in both the video and in the comments!
I really appreciate that george!
4:15 we call this a learning moment. They either learn that I cannot heal 3 shards instapopping (because i tell them) in an 11 when everyone isn't running personals, or we brick.
Blizzard REALLY need to implement more "Damage Down" mechanics. Like the Skarmorak add mechanic you've mentioned: the power is on the DPS, but the responsibility for failing it falls on the healers. If that mechanic made it so the first stack dealt ticking damage, but made it so if you get a second stack the debuff would transform into a -90% damage done mechanic and you fail the shield phase due to the lack of damage, that would be a clear way to communicate that it was the DPS who failed the mechanic.
2:40 Pretty much *all* of failed mechanics, be it boss mechanics, standing in fire, missing kicks becomes the healer's problem. Now... this is obviously inherent to the healing task and why you are there as a healer, but they should really start looking at ways to penalize the DPS players for playing poorly because currently the burden on most healers is simply too much.
I pug all my keys as a healer as well and from my experience I've been hard carrying 80%+ of the DPS out there.
I don't have the answers to this problem, but there have been suggestions made already.
And for the love of everything that is holy; Blizzard *needs* to fix visual clarity when it comes to ground swirlies. This is even more apparent/ a thing on Holy Pal and Monk (melee healers) when they already have to put down their own ground effect.
I love the ground remark. It's very frustrating and counterintuitive when you get clipped by a swirl that doesn't have a clear edge. And it's so annoying dying to invisible frontals! Make those things GLOW!
The insta kill is a good solution. When I started cc was needed before many pulls. Otherwise everyone knew it would otherwise be a wipe. And it wasn't thought of as "healer sucks"
I personally like it that there is way to recover from groups mistakes by healing trough it. If i cannot heal trough it, i still know that this thing was failed so i got extra work. And so should others. If others dont know and blame healer, they just dumb and i dont care what they say. I very much would hope blizz would not try to change that.
I still think there should be plenty of heal checks, but man I just get tired of players ignoring mechanics if it only puts stress on healers :p
@@LBNinja7 I understand this too. So many times I have watched dps fail mechanics and then say it's my fault as the tank.
I truly enjoyed this season as a healer and I'm still grinding keys with my group. Doing 13s-14s currently
I also have enjoyed it when playing in organized groups, but pugging feels worse this season than the last few
I think what they should have done in mists is this:
Once you cleared the room, the first totem in the room becomes active. You then have to find the matching totem.
So much easier and it involves the mobs.
This is perfect. You're exactly right.
what you incentivize is what people WILL do. the incentives are wrong atm. need to be better aligned to what motivates a dps.
how do you fee about mechanics of last boss in raid that one shot tanks?
Honestly at that point just wipe the raid lol. But I do think those mechanics are necessary at some point in a raid
i have always been pretty firm on my opinion on dungeon trash design. Make random targeted bolts do less damage but uninterruptable and give packs a mob that does also uninterruptable aoe damage (Big blast, pulsing aoe or rot). Interruptable casts should be things like shields, or damage reduction auras or heals on the mobs or a cry that pulls adiddtional trash. stuff that wastes your time in a timed environment. There should never be a scenario where Player A gets punished for Player Bs mistake. A System like vulnerability stacks in ff14 would also be great as you sorta mentioned in the skarmorak example. kill a shard and you get a debuff that just instantly kills you if you break another one within the next like 2 seconds. Blizzard even did something like this for the first time on ansurek. if you trigger two poison pools within like the same 1.5 seconds you just wipe. that would work just aswell in dungeons in my opinion, and it would finally teach people how to play mechanics properly early in the learning curve, rather than so late that they have no clue until they are in keys that they have no business beeing in yet for that exact reason.
Tanks Job: Heal, Kick Dispel
Healers Job: Heal, Kick, Dispel
DPS Job: Do Dmg, Kick
They should make kicking just a purely dps role so that tank and healer have a load off their shoulders and the responsibility is divided equally.
yea I am with you when it comes to especially healing low keys. I had a team in Stonevault on my resto druid alt where 2 of my teammates had 100 MILL AVOIDABLE DAMAGE TAKEN (so 200 mill together) each over the whole run. That is honestly incredible, the group was chill and noone said anything but its incredible how ppl just don't avoid mechanics (either they dont care since its healable in low keys anyways or they don't know the mechanic).
As a healer I don't stress out since I know I can't do shit if people are playing like that. But when an easy key fails due to stuff like that it honestly is a little bit frustrating.
Honestly, wear that like a badge of honor lol! Those numbers are STAGGERING
I can relate to all these thing's. I agree I feel like I get punished sometimes my overall healing is more than the 1st or 2nd place dps dmg and I have a mana pool I have to maintain while they can just keep pulling and missing mechanics making me waste my CDs when I need them for major mechanics & it's not fair I'm being punished.
Taking power away to heal health bars up will only make it worse since the stress is knowing another ability will go out and if they r not at 100 percent , there will be a death. It is really slowing the aoe damage going out so that there is time to heal and not a panic if u leave someone at 80 percent while u use a global for something else.
Fake casts to trick a kick into cooldown is an essential part of pvp gameplay that would be affected by that type of kick change. Probably why it hasn't been done.
I feel like if more casts from mobs were group rot dmg profiles wiuld be more enjoyable to heal through than a web bolt finishing off your shaman who was at 70% after a big group aoe.
The 3rd boss of halls from last season was peak healing profile and should be how most healing in this game feels.
Oh for sure! My favorite boss by a LOT
Didn't see anyone mention the journey into nyx box on your desk so I gotta shout it out!
i always hope - if someone messes up - he just dies - getting oneshot
its the worst!!!
if a dps fails - stands in a frontal etc. and surivives with like 5% hp
than i have a big task outside all the stuff i alrdy have to do
and often
the moment i filled his bar - the same dude does something stupid again - or someone else
and this has a chance - due to all the (not needed) stress i get (for basicly no reason) - i eat something avoidable myself
since a while i use a detail! plugin - showing avoidable dmg - and while i analyse it often after my m+ keys
i have to say - like a really big number - no all of it - is due to i had to stand still - to heal someone who took some big not needed dmg
also - if they dont die in a onehit
often they - or even other group members tend to flame me like it was my fault - because - hey - i had like 0.5 seconds to react to player X stand in a frontal so i can
give/sacrifice some of my cds like a life cocons .....
man its getting exhausting - if there are no (big) changes - i will just switch to dps and eat longer search times - or drop wow entirley - im more and more
burned out - in a game ....a game................. FUN
The First thing is why i like Healer so much. You can Save a run Even when you have apes if you Play extremly well
To your point (re: speed healers are expected to top players up). Something I've been saying for a while is it feels like they secretly made Grievous a hidden M+ affix. Granted, there's no stacking bleed effect, but the general idea of keeping everyone at 100%, 100% of the time still applies. It's part of the reason why healing just feels exhausting to do. Instead of seeing the affix every few weeks it's present in every dungeon, every week.
As a side note, they need to figure out a way to incentivize DPS players to use their utility buttons without making it a healer punishment. The number of internal screams I've experienced running GB on my monk or priest and never seeing a DPS shaman, druid or mage using their decurse this season alone....
22:03 you literally say it right here. These players should learn it. Almost everything you mentioned is not the sole responsibility of the healer. Any good player will play to help the healer, because that makes the whole dungeon easier. Players playing bad doesn’t all of a sudden mean everything is the healers job. The dispels are the only thing I can agree with, because those are attached to certain classes and specs.
You said lots of good stuff. I didnt like the design of most dungeons where one healer has easy time while other suffers extremely, mainly because of dispels and interupts. About dps-its hard to fix them. Usually keys break because they dont do enough damage even if they try. They rotation is much more complex. So probably dungeons should not be about damage, but about working together. How to do that is hard to say.
Think they’d need to massively rework m+ for some of these ideas. Not a bad thing. But the death penalty and timer really emphasises that a single player problem can easily be a group problem.
Overall though. I agree with the problem of too much healer responsibility compounded by other players offloading to the healer. Not sure the solution hits the mark though - it’s possible we go too far the other way where healer is back to feeling very inconsequential and invisible. Either nothing we could do or nothing we need to do.
I do agree that too many of these changes would lead to healer-less keys. I guess if they do go that way though, they could always role lock above a certain key level.
omg i really like your genius idea that only success interrupt will go on cooldown! (they have to make it pve only too)
Only PVE for SURE. Imagine that in pvp... Imagine the maccros LOL
The simple solution is not to pug keys where there is no expectation of responsibility as opposed to guild that or dedicated group that will kick bad mechanics from players
i love being able to top people off quickly with one or two heals... good change.. but i think that dps should be more punished for not kicking, like lowering their dps and not just doing dmg.. they also got rid of all the crappy affixes so going in the right direction.. some affixes now are still annoying, but not nearly as bad as it used to be and also you get a bonus for doing it so thats good. a lot of new affixes are party-wide also and not just healer affixes
How would you implement the punishment in dps? Let’s say 3 or 4 mobs are casting at the same time. People will try to find which mob is targeting them and try to interrupt that mob. With the current name plates this will be hard. We would need something as a high light if a mob targets you. Which I would like, but I’m not sure if Blizzard wants to go that way.
the cast could lower all dps players dmg by some % incentivizing all to kick and not let any through
@@pickkahandle And afterwards, hear me out, as a pug, we go do synchronized swimming, because at this stage of m+, synchronizing kicks is like synchronized swimming.
Currently there are ways to show who casts are targetting. But if 4 casters cast at the same time, then every player hits their interrupt, maybe two mobs get interrupted, then the other two kicks hit the same targets and go on cooldown. My recommendation is that the other 2 DON'T go on cd since they didn't kick anything, and then those players kick the third and fourth cast
@@LBNinja7 I agree with your proposal in a theoretical way. But I would want to know which mob is targeting me and I would focus on that mob. I wouldn't trust the rest of the party to help me. I sometimes check the stats after a run and most runs I check I did the same number of interrupts as the rest of the group combined.
When I saw your video I was positive about your suggestions, but after a while I asked myself will this actually work. I do think it will improve the situation. There are DPS players who value their parses and who will help more with interrupts. But I've also experienced people doing like 150k/200k dps in a +4/+5 who were just watching something on their 2nd screen and didn't help at all with interrupts. I think those people aren't bothered when they get a negative debuff or something.
Same with the suggestion about interrupt only going on cd when it interrupts something. I've been proposing this since Dragonflight. I think this will improve the situation, but it won't fix the situation.
I think we need more to fix the issue. One option is to police toxicity and punish people for it.
Another option is to increase difficulty interrupt wise. So for each keylevel the recast time decreases with a certain percentage to a certian cap. So in a +2 you can do the run if 1 or 1,5 people use their interrupt. On a +10 or maybe a +12 you need everybody to use their interrupts.
@@Dr0Damyen The problem is, the more difficult or complex we try to make the mechanics for interrupt, all it ends up is harder fights. To not put more pressure on healing, a "punishment" would be, if an interrupt is done properly, the fight becomes easier, if not then is either normal or "harder". Like you interrupt this spell, mob gets "dazzed" and take more dmg. Think how nice the warrior spell reflect is, something along those lines.
Kicks could work like cleanses. If they dont remove anything, they dont incur a cd.
+++
So we macro our interrupt in every single dmg skill? That feels wrong imo
I honestly think one-shot mechanics are the most frustrating thing as a healer. But at the same time, it’s also rough when people drop to 20% from one hit. I feel like you should be able to easily run keys that give you max gear/vault. Anything beyond that, where it’s just about the IO score, can be pretty stressful. It often feels like people are just chasing score and aren’t actually there for the gear, which some players need for raiding. Just because someone’s a Mythic raider doesn’t mean they’re great at M+ or even enjoy it. And who’s to say their spec is even the best for keys, without relying on something like Augmentation Evoker or buying a boost?
Addition: I also think they really need to take a closer look at balance. My Brewmaster Monk with 630 ilvl gets wrecked in dungeons and ends up needing around 50% of the healer's total output, while Warriors usually don’t need much healing at all. Feels a bit off. And some classes get multiple reworks in just a few weeks, while Brewmaster gets pretty much ignored-probably because fewer people play it.
With Censoring Gears and Choking Waters it's really weird that those spells aren't marked as important by the game (IE Orange Bar on Plater or green bar on default). I think that's why they don't get kicked.
The game, by default, doesn't really have a mechanic to emphasize important spells (for trash). You could easily set up your plater to mark those spells with a different color if you so desire. But I see your point, maybe blizzard could introduce UI elements to help DPS players understand important kicks....( if they even have kick bound).
The problem with those spells is; if they target the healer (and they often do) then the entire party suffers and is at risk of wiping because there is only 1 healer.
Whereas if it lands on a DPS then, first of all, you only lose about 30% DPS overall and more importantly, a healer can insta dispell it to negate it completely.
It's a perfect example of why this is stupid. Maybe they could just make it so that they cast never targets the healer or tank.
@@zerodivided3676 I’m pretty sure it does have a mechanic for marking them as important though. I haven’t used default nameplates in a while to be fair but I’ve seen people who do on streams and the important spells for them were marked as green. For me on plater they’re marked orange.
Couple of examples: Drain Fluids in NW, Harvest Essence in Mists, Howling Fear in Stonevault, Twisted Voice in CoT.
I can try using default nameplates and report back, but in my defense I think a majority of players above +5s are probably using Plater or ThreatPlates.
Choking Waters, Stinky Vomit, Censoring Gears, Web Bolt are all examples of things that really need to be locked but are NOT marked as important even by plater.
Tanks need to have the ability to do 80% of the damage a DPS can do, in single target and AOE, and healers need to have the ability to do at least 60% of the damage a DPS can do.
The keys will speed up, questing will be much easier and good healers can express their skills on the DPS charts as well as the HPS charts. Let tanks and healers blast.
as a healer having a group of 630 plus individuals make a key harder than my group of 620 peeps seems to be the true issue...
If we go back to everything being one-shots I'm deleting my healers.
Yeah I'm not meaning how it was in dragonflight where everything did so much damage that they would one shot you. I mean specific mechanics that are meant to be done one way, that only punish the healer when failed
as a pug healer, thank you for using your platform like this! It's been brutal for us
also i disagree, dps do NOT have problems as bad as us(dps mains crying over spilled milk tbh); theres a reason tanks and healers play dps when they want to chill xD
issue with needing to only kick and other stuns dont help is that ... this change is targeted at the highest rank players, but pugging suffers cuz of it since in pugs you cant ever coordinate the kicks properly
I really think Blizzard wants us to start hopping in discord with pug groups, but tbh that shouldn't be expected. When I just want to sit down and do weekly keys, last thing I want to do is join a disc lol
When I watch your streams or anyone else's the thing that always boggles me is how a group where everyone knows the dungeon can be healed with 700k at a +10 while I'm in +6s doing 900k-1 mill and still not timing because as you say, everybody's errors become my problem. It's exhausting.
Agree with u that healers need help with the current set up. More and more are quitting heals or quitting the game.
Or taking time off for carpel tunnel surgery lol
@@LBNinja7 rofl!
Mobs can do demoshouts, disarms, mindgames or mechanics if dps wont kick and then theyre damage done heals mobs etc.... etc.... by doing that like of things wont punish healers that much. Theres also shit load of mechanics where you need to run all the time and heal at same time. As holy priest that is just horrible because there arent aoe heals but practically you need to hard cast. Bring seed back !
Dangggg I forgot to mention this! I meant to mention how making movement during damage a mechanic is bad design because it punishes some specs WAY more than others!
From the perspective of a healer, I just call this unnecessary overhealing, which is fine from time to time, but it just seems like it happens many times in a single pack, so then as a healer you feel like you have no agency over who remains alive, let alone my hands hurt too ffs.
I feel like there is too much overlap with the roles in general. Too much passive healing comes from the tank and dps. Now, the tank could keep this for their self to make tanks more self-sufficient. Dk and dh of course would be best at it, then PP and Guardian a little less, and PW and BrM the least. DPS would have no passive healing or leech. They could still hard-cast, but it'd be miniscule. Also, remove the regen healing out-of-combat. Healers would have way more to heal, but it wouldn't always be the "heal or everyone dies" style of healing.
Tanks should not have to do so much dps. That's for the dps to do. They could lower tank dps and raise their threat. This isn't a huge deal, but it seems every season that a lot the meta is determined by how much dps a tank does. But i think tank and healer should have similar dps if there is nothing for the healer to heal atm. Of course, the healer would be lower overall at the end because the healer has to heal at times.
And the Dmg dealers do dps. If ya wanna be a dps that is more of a support, then go Aug. Honestly, i wouldn't mind if we eventually moved in a direction where every group needed a "support dps" like Aug, but blizz would need way more variety in that category. Aug alone isn't enough to justify that idea yet.
MAKE HOLY PRIEST GREAT AGAIN!
MHPGA!
Whoever is handing out mechanics, casts and their overall frequency to the mob packs and bosses, needs to take a chill pill. There is also a big problem with the cooldown of players kicks and stops and the cooldown of the mobs abilities. I'm out of everything to help all the time. And the mobs just recast so fast.
It is pretty much just luck or close to impossible to control these packs in pugs even if everybody is trying their best to help.
Healing is not perfect right now, less fun for sure, but it's not that bad i think.
I tank. interesting listening to things from the point of view of my partners. I druid tank, so I might try switching specs and healing some just to get a feel for how it feels for healers. I don't agree with you about the changes you would like to see. I think they would basically all make the game feel worse. But I do hear your overall message that as a healer you feel like you have too much responsibility for keeping the group alive. Maybe DPS needs to have more ways to be responsible for their own health bar.
like your ideas for personal responsibility consequences for dps, and well, all players. Reminds me of the boss in Vault of the Wardens that would put your ability on CD for 10s.
I healed a 8 city, never again
Give the DPS a job to do.
I just want dps to use defensives and healing pots
It really is too much to ask. Why should they use one global to live when the healer could use their external on them, plus 3 globals to top them up? /s
worst idea ever add 1 shot mechanic into m+
DPS only care about damage. If they mess up a mechanic they should get a 90% damage nerf and it should be very clear that this person has this buff. Like a large cursed skull over their head.
The puzzle is so funny because I already have to do everything. The DPS are doing, and then also heal them through their many mistakes, and now I have to also solve the puzzle too while still doing that? Well, you’re still making all your mistakes?
Jokes on you I don’t even use an add on for the puzzle. I just like puzzles.
AND Devour affix comes out and you need to stop solving puzzle to heal? Meanwhile all 4 other party members stand still looking at you lol.
@ right like at least go stand by one for me
No no no! Dps, pick up your pitchforks. I'll say it. Your job is easy, too easy. Compared to the responsibility of the tank and healer, it isn't distributed evenly. Tanks have the most responsibility, imo. Healers 2nd (some dungeons and some fights, they have the most) again, imo. But dps get away with doing nothing but their rotation at a majority of key levels. Low keys, they can ignore mechanics entirely and be saved by the healer. They can go all the way from +2s to +8s and never use a kick or stop. That can be saved by the healer. Then you get to higher keys where they haven't learned to use their defensives or interrupts and die to a Web Bolt because they have a massive dot on them called Ravenous Swarm.
Another way to tell dps have by far the easiest job, when a healer or tank wants to relax and run a key, what's the role they queue up as? That's right, let me turn off my brain and play dps.
I think your ideas are solid distributing group responsibility, but I think blizzard also has to make it more apparent to the player for the tools they have. Blizzard needs to either bring back proving grounds or make a tutorial to show how their abilites interact with dungeon mechanics. Or if someone dies with a defensive available, it says "YOU DIED" in big letters across your screen and then shows all their defensives that are available with descriptions from the tooltip. Then make mechanics straight up kill someone.
My rule of thumb if 3 kicks are missed pre first boss i leave. That group doesnt deserve that key level. end of story call it toxic but im not wasting my time for people who cant do their job.
Understand where you are coming from, but it's still dogshit mentality.
"We could still easily time this but since I don't deem you worthy I will leave" gtfo of your high horse. It's a video game.
I'd agree with the points you made in here, but I would say that the more overarching problems in m+ for us as healers are being made significantly worse by the fact that season one has just a really terrible pool of dungeons.
Stonevault is one of the single worst/most broken dungeons in the history of the game. I avoid it at all costs.
City of Threads the same.
Dawnbreaker is full of bugs and DISGUSTING overlap on the 1st and 2nd bosses. Total no-go for me.
Necrotic Wake sucked in Shadowlands, it still sucks now.
Grim Batol was famous for how insanely overtuned it was.
It really sucks when more than half the dungeons in one season are just gouge-your-eyes-out bad. And DPS players wonder why healers are leaving the game.
I noticed your Minecraft torch hasn't been in the background in a while. So sad. I love your Minecraft torch. #concernedfangurrrrlllllyyyy
Lol I need to tilt my camera up so you can see it 😅 it's still there though!
Blizz needs to remove the 'Death Tax' and must revert the changes to interrupts and kicks. People don't realize just how big of a change the 'kick nerf' was. It impacts every other aspect of the key. Players have told me that they believe that they will overlap their kick with other players or use a 'stop' that isn't a real kick and the caster just goes on machine gun cast mode. So why bother trying to kick. Thats the problem, they have developed a 'why bother to try to kick' attitude. Revert the changes back to s4 of DF. That's when people used their interrupts. I left this comment in the first minutes of watching this, so I didn't know you were going to cover it. Glad we're on the same page kinda.
Haha I'm glad too! I agree, the kick change was MASSIVE and not a lot of people knew it at first. Also deaths are punishing enough, NO ONE was asking for the tax to be upped!
i think the main problem is tanking and healing beeing just a support role and because they are support roles there is tons of downtime. tanking feels like passing the ball to the dps people so they can score/have fun. for example in the dungeon grim batol there are 4 dangerous monster types you have to be aware of as a tank. the rest of the dungeon is gather, have aggro,kick and wait for the other people to have fun. healing has tons of downtime aswell where you just follow dispell and cast chain lightning. aslong as those roles are just support roles less people will be interested in them.
Well dont people play these roles for this aspect? It would like a DPS crying that they have to do damage. Different roles for different people.
@@termintot4645 i dont think you fully read my comment. im saying people dont like those roles because of the downtime and the downtime happens because they are support roles. are you saying people play support roles because they like downtime? not doing anything 40% of the dungeon?
Lots of people really enjoy supporting the group. We don't need 5 dps specs in a m+ run
I think what you're saying would be fixed by the Time to Top section. If you spend more of your time getting health bars topped, your healing is just as relevant but more Healing based
Tanks and healers are the primary roles. DPS just speed up the run.
I'm mostly joking, but it's just to point out that those roles are an entirely different MINDSET. That's why "Vengeance" didn't fix tank shortages. During the life of the mechanic, if the tank wasn't top dps, he was doing something wrong.
How did that work? Well, there was a rush of new "tanks", but most of them were dps players who either wanted faster queues or just to top the meters. They loved topping the meters, but a LOT of them basically ignored the actual tank mechanics and responsibilities, so these tanks just caused a lot of wipes, especially in harder content. They didn't last, and so it wasn't long before the tank population was right back where it started.
No, the thing that burns out most tank/healers is the distribution of RESPONSIBILITIES. Almost any responsibility failed by a dps becomes something the healer or tank is now supposed to "fix", where any responsibility missed by a tank/healer is a wipe. THAT is what burns out tanks/healers. Until you find a fix for that, it will always be the small subset of players who want to feel like they have to "carry" groups who stick with the role of tank/healer.
Honestly, the healer role should just be removed, we should just play tank + 4 dps with more self heal and defensive for each dps, that way everyone is responsible for it's own survavibility
If your breaking the tinity, why not just give DPS more survaivability and let everyone do everything?
@@ssu7653 because in a dungeon you have to set a pace gather things. if you have 5 people able to do that the run becomes less coordianated without comps. those roles ensure certain responsibilities. gather pace route will be the job of 1 dps then. that role is harder to agree upon if there is no shield symbol asigning it for you. with friends it would be great tho you run in different directions meet up in the middle and nuke. since healer is just a glorified healing potion and dispell, you could drop the role by just making people survive more.
I mean, some teams are already doing just this in a co-ordinated setting. There's plenty of high level key runs with no healer.
This still leads to the problem that some DPS would refuse to press defensives ;)
Damn you hate monks
Well said i agree with almost 90% of what you said . Butbi think you make it a lil bit complicated. In my opinion just get rid of half of avoidable dmg mechanic add more rot type dmg going on more unavoidable dmg is good and replace the avoidable dmg mechanics mostly with one shots . And make kicks triger half cd when fail to interrupt.
I pretty much feel better to be ready to a hard heal check that i know lts coming compare to some medium dmg burst dou to missing mech by dps players out of blue