Hm, I think he is mixing something up here. When I sweat, I want water vapor to go out, not air. If I wear a thick fleece pullover for example, there is very little chance for water vapor to escape because the material is not very permeable for water vapor, hence I sweat like hell and it is too hot. On the other side the material is highly air permeable and there is an amount of ~200 CFM (cubic feet per minute) that can go through this material. This means it is highly air permeable but has a very high resistance against water vapor. Ando now take these ultralight waterproof laminates such as Gore-Tex Active, Neoshell or Event. They are basically windproof and the airpermeability you can measure is really low (around 1 - 3 CFM), but they are highly breathable, means a lot of water vapor can pass through as the resistance agains water vapor is really low.
Hey Craig, as somebody who tries to posts high-end and longer term reviews, I do think air permeability testing is a great way to test but lets face it Craig, manufacturers are NOT releasing this information, so how are we (users and/or reviewers) suppose to pass this information along. It has been CRAZY HARD for me to get MVTR data from manufacturers, and most of them are not even willing to share that with me. Attempting to get the industry to use AP/APT over MVTR is just probably not going to happen. As you said, MVTR has sooo many different testing methods (JIS L 1099 / ISO 2528 / ASTM E96 / etc) Agree with all that you have said, but still, going against the flow of the industry itself on this one - its just going to take more than a few people trying to fight this cause to make a change though. PR Firms and cliches are usually the driving force behind this stuff - and you said it well enough in this video. Here is an example of where I have talked about "breathability" but also made sure to define it as "MVTR" - AND made to sure get which *type* of testing was done: hikelighter.com/2013/08/07/waterproof-breathable-cuben-fiber-using-event-technology/ Some of us *are* out here trying to educate other hikers.
Excellent video. There's no real good DIY at home test for, "breathability" in non-waterproof fabrics that you can think of, is there? I'm looking to compare different fabrics "breathability" to each other, so it doesn't need to be wholly scientific. My thought is a simple air permabillity test coupled with dry time test and just looking at fabric traits (wool acts like this, polyester acts like this).
Great video and very usefull infos ! I still got one question : is a Air Permeable jacket still as Watreproof as a No Air Permeable one ? Can we consider an eVent or NeoShell membrane as Waterproof and durable as a Gore-Tex membran ? Thanks
Breathability. Take a gore-tex performance standard jacket, and do standardized excercises. Take the other jacket and do the same excercises. Now you can evaluate how many movements you made before you had to take the jacket off since it was so unconfortable. Then put on a plastic sack and compare. That is breathabiltiy.
@@michawolski5948 Once outer shell is saturated with water, it is unbreathable. Therefore the good construction is a light ripstop on the outside, which dries quickly, cannot suck up too much water and large pitzips. 10 minutes into the rain wet-out occurs, if you cannot dry you will have moisture inside the jacket. That is why a thick polar is needed to insulate. This way you can manage like 40 minutes slowly walking before the moisture inside gets too much for comfort. In a plastic rain jacket, this happens in 10 minutes.
I don't get the coating of the gore tex membrane, if you coat a porous surface with poly, you do not have a porous surface anymore, and the way gore tex previously let ZERO air through, where do they get off calling it breathable? Yeah, maybe your membrane was breathable, before it was coated, but that's not what they sold, it gets coated and then that's what they sold, an impermeable membrane that, Was it waterproof without the poly? Maybe not? So was it all a marketing ploy? In anticipation of the technology catching up, selling the dream of the future? I have just bought an eVent DValpine membraned REI Rhyolite , my first lightweight waterproof jacket ever, and I'll tell you it's world's away from all the different gore tex stuff I've used. I have a Vuarnet gore tex XCR winter ski jacket that is unbelievable in blizzard conditions, but God forbid you have to do any high aerobic activity, you are sweating, stifling, and soaked in sweat, but it literally doesn't matter what the temperature is, you aren't going to feel it, so for dead of winter it's great. Likewise I have a pair of federal prison industries military extended cold weather Teflon/gore seem laminated pull over pants, they are impervious to cold and water, but breathable is not even on the radar, luckily they are roomy and provide a large interior air circulation and the pocket access flaps can be turned in to create vents, but the material itself, no way. And for what they do, I LOVE these two gore tex products, I hate being cold, but they have a very specific purpose (the pants expand themselves by design into more versatile capablities, but even then the material holds it tighter to certain uses then what another could) and that is extreme cold, with forced mechanical ventilating, or keep the activity low, the pants can get into what would be considered "chilly" weather (40s, 50* max) With the eVent Rhyolite I am for the first time seeing (in owning, I mean) a waterproof outer product that isn't limited to cold weather, and it's kind of blowing my mind! I love it, so many times I have sweated on rainy days because the only jacket I had for wet weather was the Vuarnet, I have always despised the "yellow rubber ducky" rain jackets and ponchos, I have never owned one and now never will because I have seen the light, the technology in waterproofing, all the stuff I am learning watching your videos, it's eye opening, it's exciting, and it was a blessing really, without this information I would have never gone and found the kind of jackets you talk about. I wouldn't have known the new rain jackets were any different then the yellows, or a trash bag, lol, and certainly didn't think their were any that could keep you dry in moderate temperatures doing physical activities, both inside and out. Which brings me back to the gore tex of old, it confuses me in its claim as breathable, but I am still glad they tried, it definitely paved the road to what we have now. Thanks again prolitegear !, keep up the awesome videos, this stuff couldn't be more interesting and it's entertaining as anything with how you present it.
Those outer/inner layers made of polyester/nylon/whatever are not completly solid at a microscopic level. They are weaved (in different ways, depending of their type), which means there are some micro spaces between each row and column of a filament used. That's where vapor comes through. When you use a DWR product on an outer layer of a jacket, it sinks in into filament of the layer. Once it dries, it will prevent the layer from absorbing water. So DWR does not create another layer on top of your jacket.
That's a polite way of saying, "marketing baloney". Agreed that it was brilliant marketing, but it destroyed the industry. 60/40 parkas were far better garments. Totally breathable, with a bit of water resistance. It was a more useful balance.
breathing literally means inhalation and exhalation. If it's only one then it's semi breathable. The industry should be using the actual definition, not making up their own for their own convenience.
Very bad consequence & ignorance of this is racehorse trainers have their horses wear heat blocking spandex tight lycra hoods right at the heat producing brain that requires release at poll area but not getting it. Plus hard cinyl or rubber ear muffs to block noise & several countries allow them to race in them. Mesh ones slightly better but youtube Japanese race horses with them are going Mental.
I will gladly listen to some rambling to get this kind of info. Good stuff
Hm, I think he is mixing something up here. When I sweat, I want water vapor to go out, not air. If I wear a thick fleece pullover for example, there is very little chance for water vapor to escape because the material is not very permeable for water vapor, hence I sweat like hell and it is too hot. On the other side the material is highly air permeable and there is an amount of ~200 CFM (cubic feet per minute) that can go through this material. This means it is highly air permeable but has a very high resistance against water vapor. Ando now take these ultralight waterproof laminates such as Gore-Tex Active, Neoshell or Event. They are basically windproof and the airpermeability you can measure is really low (around 1 - 3 CFM), but they are highly breathable, means a lot of water vapor can pass through as the resistance agains water vapor is really low.
Great video! Its something the consumer needs to know!
Hey Craig, as somebody who tries to posts high-end and longer term reviews, I do think air permeability testing is a great way to test but lets face it Craig, manufacturers are NOT releasing this information, so how are we (users and/or reviewers) suppose to pass this information along. It has been CRAZY HARD for me to get MVTR data from manufacturers, and most of them are not even willing to share that with me.
Attempting to get the industry to use AP/APT over MVTR is just probably not going to happen. As you said, MVTR has sooo many different testing methods (JIS L 1099 / ISO 2528 / ASTM E96 / etc)
Agree with all that you have said, but still, going against the flow of the industry itself on this one - its just going to take more than a few people trying to fight this cause to make a change though. PR Firms and cliches are usually the driving force behind this stuff - and you said it well enough in this video.
Here is an example of where I have talked about "breathability" but also made sure to define it as "MVTR" - AND made to sure get which *type* of testing was done:
hikelighter.com/2013/08/07/waterproof-breathable-cuben-fiber-using-event-technology/ Some of us *are* out here trying to educate other hikers.
eVent and Polartec (for Neoshell) have published some general data on MVTR.
Excellent video. There's no real good DIY at home test for, "breathability" in non-waterproof fabrics that you can think of, is there?
I'm looking to compare different fabrics "breathability" to each other, so it doesn't need to be wholly scientific. My thought is a simple air permabillity test coupled with dry time test and just looking at fabric traits (wool acts like this, polyester acts like this).
Great video and very usefull infos !
I still got one question : is a Air Permeable jacket still as Watreproof as a No Air Permeable one ? Can we consider an eVent or NeoShell membrane as Waterproof and durable as a Gore-Tex membran ?
Thanks
What is "vapordry" and is it any good?
Breathability. Take a gore-tex performance standard jacket, and do standardized excercises. Take the other jacket and do the same excercises. Now you can evaluate how many movements you made before you had to take the jacket off since it was so unconfortable. Then put on a plastic sack and compare. That is breathabiltiy.
You are implying that goretex is like plastic bag ? Completely non-breathable?
@@michawolski5948 Once outer shell is saturated with water, it is unbreathable. Therefore the good construction is a light ripstop on the outside, which dries quickly, cannot suck up too much water and large pitzips. 10 minutes into the rain wet-out occurs, if you cannot dry you will have moisture inside the jacket. That is why a thick polar is needed to insulate. This way you can manage like 40 minutes slowly walking before the moisture inside gets too much for comfort. In a plastic rain jacket, this happens in 10 minutes.
I don't get the coating of the gore tex membrane, if you coat a porous surface with poly, you do not have a porous surface anymore, and the way gore tex previously let ZERO air through, where do they get off calling it breathable? Yeah, maybe your membrane was breathable, before it was coated, but that's not what they sold, it gets coated and then that's what they sold, an impermeable membrane that, Was it waterproof without the poly? Maybe not? So was it all a marketing ploy? In anticipation of the technology catching up, selling the dream of the future? I have just bought an eVent DValpine membraned REI Rhyolite , my first lightweight waterproof jacket ever, and I'll tell you it's world's away from all the different gore tex stuff I've used. I have a Vuarnet gore tex XCR winter ski jacket that is unbelievable in blizzard conditions, but God forbid you have to do any high aerobic activity, you are sweating, stifling, and soaked in sweat, but it literally doesn't matter what the temperature is, you aren't going to feel it, so for dead of winter it's great. Likewise I have a pair of federal prison industries military extended cold weather Teflon/gore seem laminated pull over pants, they are impervious to cold and water, but breathable is not even on the radar, luckily they are roomy and provide a large interior air circulation and the pocket access flaps can be turned in to create vents, but the material itself, no way. And for what they do, I LOVE these two gore tex products, I hate being cold, but they have a very specific purpose (the pants expand themselves by design into more versatile capablities, but even then the material holds it tighter to certain uses then what another could) and that is extreme cold, with forced mechanical ventilating, or keep the activity low, the pants can get into what would be considered "chilly" weather (40s, 50* max) With the eVent Rhyolite I am for the first time seeing (in owning, I mean) a waterproof outer product that isn't limited to cold weather, and it's kind of blowing my mind! I love it, so many times I have sweated on rainy days because the only jacket I had for wet weather was the Vuarnet, I have always despised the "yellow rubber ducky" rain jackets and ponchos, I have never owned one and now never will because I have seen the light, the technology in waterproofing, all the stuff I am learning watching your videos, it's eye opening, it's exciting, and it was a blessing really, without this information I would have never gone and found the kind of jackets you talk about. I wouldn't have known the new rain jackets were any different then the yellows, or a trash bag, lol, and certainly didn't think their were any that could keep you dry in moderate temperatures doing physical activities, both inside and out. Which brings me back to the gore tex of old, it confuses me in its claim as breathable, but I am still glad they tried, it definitely paved the road to what we have now. Thanks again prolitegear !, keep up the awesome videos, this stuff couldn't be more interesting and it's entertaining as anything with how you present it.
Those outer/inner layers made of polyester/nylon/whatever are not completly solid at a microscopic level. They are weaved (in different ways, depending of their type), which means there are some micro spaces between each row and column of a filament used. That's where vapor comes through. When you use a DWR product on an outer layer of a jacket, it sinks in into filament of the layer. Once it dries, it will prevent the layer from absorbing water. So DWR does not create another layer on top of your jacket.
That's a polite way of saying, "marketing baloney".
Agreed that it was brilliant marketing, but it destroyed the industry.
60/40 parkas were far better garments.
Totally breathable, with a bit of water resistance. It was a more useful balance.
breathing literally means inhalation and exhalation. If it's only one then it's semi breathable.
The industry should be using the actual definition, not making up their own for their own convenience.
ProLiteGear Thanks for the info! It's gold!
Very bad consequence & ignorance of this is racehorse trainers have their horses wear heat blocking spandex tight lycra hoods right at the heat producing brain that requires release at poll area but not getting it. Plus hard cinyl or rubber ear muffs to block noise & several countries allow them to race in them. Mesh ones slightly better but youtube Japanese race horses with them are going Mental.
real one
Video is like.. 4-5 minutes too long. Craig is rambling.
Fuck off, bitch.