Mail Call Mondays Season 9 #34 - Gas Guns in PRS
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
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This season will be my first try at PRS at our range. The 'gauntlet' I've observed in the setup for past matches are targets from 75 - 900 yards in all combinations of positions and # of shots and # of targets. So its somewhat intimidating. I'm considering using my 6.5 CM semi for one notable reason. I filmed a few previous matches and all competitors were using bolt guns and for several challenging stations a great many times the shooter would time out before getting off the required shots. Zero score for each no shot. My philosophy is if I can get the 5, 10, or 15 shot series off in time for that station I think my odds will be better than timing out with my bolt. BTW, these were all very experienced shooters. Time to test my theory this season. I've been shooting MOA at 1000 with this gun so my gear should be up to the task. Its the position challenges for my 73 yo body that will be the most challenging I think. LOL Thanks for the vid.
I built a large frame AR that's almost identical except in 308 Win with a 20-inch Bartlein barrel and usually hovers around .6-.7 moa. After running it in a few matches, I found that my finish was within a few spots of where I normally place. KYL racks and the 1 MOA bonus type targets were the greatest challenge. A normal match rifle that sits at 20+ lbs in something like a MDT ACC chassis will always be more stable on a bag and probably be the best option for a serious competitor, but gas guns are also fun... and having fun is important otherwise you get burnt out on competing.
I have the dd5v3 16” and wantin a 24” but dd has there own upper cuts so I’d have to call em I guess…i handload for it and .68” round about what it does…
@@charlesmullins3238 that’s a keeper for sure
@@billbee235 I can’t believe more haven’t found this hidden gem…I’d put it against every .308 auto I’ve seen the gap-10 bein one I’d say out shoot it..scars…sr-25s…lmt’s…none I’ve seen so what this one will with right shooter. Not me
I like shooting both, I find it easier to do well with a bolt gun but gas guns are more fun for me in non-competitive local match contexts. Since im by no means a podium level shooter, I typically just use gas guns now and focus on fun. And when Im plinking on the practice range, its fun to "double tap" targets at 600 yards with a medium weight ar15 shooting a small cheap caliber.
Also for new shooters getting into it, ive had great success buying a Tikka CTR 6.5 24" and putting it in a Bravo or XRS chassis is 99% of what a true cutom offers at half the price. The accuracy rivaled my MUCH more expensive true custom rifles!
Great video,totally agree most time is lost in getting set up than the action of the rifle.I have noticed that many newbies have their scope powered up and have trouble acquiring target quickly or totally shooting wrong target.👍🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
John, I built an AR10 in 308 using a Kreiger 20”, 1/11twist, service profile barrel. Shooting 5 consecutive 5 shot groups I average .65 MOA. I occasionally get 2 or 3 of the groups under .50”. It also has an Atlas bipod, UBR stock, LaRue trigger and a Viper 5-25, PST Gen 2 scope. That’s with 175 gr SMK over 41gr of 4064 and LC Match brass.
I get bout the same from my dd5v3 handloadin many different rounds…of course 175smk is king….15x pst,ssa-e trigger,magpul bipod, prs stock,419 brake,sf 640df,and vickers padded…47gr h4350…2158fps..58moa to 1kyrds 1st rd impact on my first try ever usin magnitospeed and hornady app…atlas brass..7rds in .75”…or 10rds in 10secs in 1.2” rapid fire@100yrds…my 6.5prc waypoint put 3 in 1 hole literally…135a tips over n560
Very informative. Thank you for the clear and concise description.
Great info, thanks
Moving to a rear stock like an XLR helped get rid of some of the tail weight I struggled with using the PRS stock. I've been really surprised by the Rainier Ultra Match barrel it's a 26" Bull and the chamber is really tight. My gasser was the only gun I owned mag fed to start PRS and I barreled a 6.5CM upper to move from my .308. I will put together an AERO ENHANCED upper in the future to get the hand guard off the barrel nut and add all the extra material around the barrel interface.
Bolt gun just really sit down in to a bag and barricade or port hole better for me than the gasser.
On the other hand the PRS guys like to call us gassers tail gunners, but when you finish 70% of the leader as a 1st year shooter and a gas gunner it's just that much more bragging rights.
Great points! Thanks, I was raised on and carried gas guns for years and just recently finished putting together my 6.5 cm Mega with a 24" Criterion/FA barrel. With a 19" rail. It's no lightweight for sure. Keep up the great videos brother.
If PRS scoring were changed to look a little more like USPSA, Where time is a much bigger Factor. Gas guns would take over totally. Bye-bye ridiculously overpriced bolt guns. I would also bet that your attendance at the matches would go away up. By making time a bigger Factor you are increasing the stress level. Therefore making it much more fun! I would participate in PRS if it was more about speed. Other than that it's pretty fucking boring. For example. Stage one 10 Targets in total. Targets one through nine are to be engaged as quickly as possible with as many shots as it takes. Target 10 can only be engaged once -10 points for a miss On Target 10. That way guys will be getting DMR practice and precision practice. And inducing much more stress at the same time. But that probably will never happen because all of the bolt gun guys control the rulemaking. But I guarantee you if you made the rules more inclusive towards gas guns you would have a much higher participation rate.
John, good points. I'll add, this year I ran my Gas Gun in the Wisconsin PRS regional matches and my bolt gun in the Michigan PRS regional matches. My Gas Gun is a Mega Maten frame set with JP guts and barrel in 6.5 creedmoor (Same one I used when we shot together at the Michigan Guardian a few years ago). My bolt is a Impact action with a 6mm Gt barrel and MPA chassis. While the matches I shot in each state (4 each) are not a perfect comparison... (Michigan matches tend to have a handful of shots that are one or two hundred yards farther out) it was interesting to track my own performance. I ended up winning both the Wisconsin final and PRS Midwest Regional Final for Gas Gun this year. That said, on average my personal hit factor is about 12% higher with a bolt-action. I firgure my hit factor by taking my total number of targets hit and dividing by my total shots fired for the match for my percentage. What I find between the two is its easier to get stable quick with my bolt-action and spot my trace and make adjustments for my next shot if the COF calls for it. Like your rifle, mine is also balance more to the rear and when I rebarrel I'm going to go with a much heavier profile and probably 24" rather then the 22" I have now. I feel that will help with balance and quicker position set up. Will that allow me to best my bolt-action performance??? I don't know... I still feel that I can get away with more slop in my position with a bolt-action and make hits and a Gas Gun is always going to disrupt your views of the bullet trace. I believe Bolt Actions are always going to win out for accuracy in the PRS game.
Excellent post. Have you tried a 6mm gas gun in an AR-15 frame? The AR-10 BCG is really tough to tame for secondary reciprocating mass effects on sight picture.
@@LRRPFco52 thank you. I do have some time on 6mm Grendel. In my experience I've found the reported ballistics to be a little optimistic. Your basically back in the 308 territory with a .530ish G1 BC at 2650, give or take 50fps. It definitely has less recoil but I feel I'd be sacrificing a little to much to downsize. That said, I may move to a 6mm Creedmoor in the Gas Gun.
@@nilescoyote4829 Even with a 28” pipe? If I was building a competition rifle in a smaller frame, I would look at the CMMG Anvil chassis. You get an AR-10 size bolt and barrel extension, with a shortened AR10 diameter bolt carrier.
In standard AR-15, you can run a JP Grendel bolt with a lengthened barrel extension with smaller threads on the tennon.
Could also do an LMT enhanced bolt made from AerMet with the longer extension.
That 6mm ARC load data is for an 18” barrel pushing a 105 at 2550fps, not a long barrel. 24” would put it over 2700fps not even using 6mm AR 40 case capacity.
It would be nice to have 6 Dasher performance from a small frame AR though. There’s a company that makes receivers that will fit Six8 PMAGs, and another making magazines for that larger magazine well that will take longer COL.
6mm ARC
Finally, an intelligent comparison video. Thanks!!
John, if you want a super stiff semi auto barrel, I would highly recommend you look at the Draco barrels. They are the same ones that come on the Falkor Defense rifles. My 6.5CM has amazed even benchrest shooters at how accurate it is because how fast it dissipates heat
John - thoughts on the 6 ARC as a PRS gas gun? (weight, barrel length, and recoil advantages over a 308/6.5CM gas gun) As a LE patrol/sniper rifle?
Chicken Feet I was planning on going with a UPR15 6ARC bolt upper for PRS matches and handload close to max SAAMI pressures-but I ended up going with 6 creed for the additional case capacity. 6 ARC is just like the 6BR, 6PPRC class of cartridges, but the problem with 6 ARC lies in the peak stresses on the bolt face of a normal gas gun. In the end, it’s too large of a case head to run hot in a standard patterned AR. Hence, the two different SAAMI specs of 6ARC Bolt, and 6 ARC Gas.
So, yes, in the end, 6ARC wouldn’t be as competitive of a cartridge compared to a 6CM or 6.5CM in a large frame AR.
Most people taking bad about 6mm ARC dont have one and havent shot one. For PRS 2850fps and a 108ELD is plenty of performance. In a built heavier profile gas gun the recoil is minimal and very smooth, follow shots are effortless. The advantage of the gas gun is you can maintain your position and put rounds down range with very little effort. If gas guns weren't chomping on the bolt guns heels so fast and hard you wouldn't see "Bolt Gun Only" matches.....EVER.
The problem right now is you can't get a solid purpose built gas gun right now anyways.
Rik Hansen, I think 6 ARC is a great cartridge and I’ve shot factory loads at 100 yards in a friends converted gas gun. Soft recoil impulse like a 6.5 gren. The problem is not with the cartridge, it’s with the AR bolt face. Are you pushing 108grainers at 2850 fps out of a gas gun? If so, Hornady load data indicates these pressures are intended for a bolt gun, at 31.2 grains of Leverevolution powder to achieve this speed Also, this is at the very edge of recommended safe load data. Check out Johnny’s Reloading Bench channel, as he has a great series on 6ARC.
There is more margin to work with in 6CM, as folks can easily push 115 grain DTACs at 3100 fps, and 6CM is just getting warmed up at 2850 fps. The cost of handloading 6ARC is about the same as 6CM (granted with more powder consumed in 6CM).
I do think 6ARC does have the capability to run with 6 Dasher, 6GT, 6BR, and so on, however only in the published “6 ARC Bolt” loadings. The published “6 ARC Gas” loadings max out at pushing 105 gr ELDs at 2550 fps.
If you go for a 24-26” barrel in the 6ARC in a gas gun, you can get 2700ft/s which will get you close enough to conservative bolt gun data in shorter barrels.
Just built mine with a 24 inch stainless heavy barrel I haven't gotten to shoot it with the way ammo is right now but I'll let you know how it goes
I wish JP still made their heavy contour supermatch barrels. Got one on their closeout sale. I managed to get .33 MOA out of my setup with my loads with my skill (average shooter).
Bolt guns are also more forgiving to shoot than gas guns. Gas guns will exploit your weaknesses faster than a bolt gun will.
Hey John, have you made any upgrades to this rifle since this video?
Most of the time it's a wash anyway. Gas guns throw you off target moreso than bolt guns just because they have more moving mass. Spend the time reacquiring the target, or running the bolt. Very little difference.
Very informative video once again. BTW, how can I get one of those RRS arca Swiss adapters for the atlas bipod?
I believe Area419 sells them
The co inventor of the AR redesigned the AR for select fire. In the video it out performed the m4. He commented on lighter bolt carriers. He said that they are insane & that was part of the original design flaws. He increased the weight on the new design and it out performed the original bcg
Call David Tubbs and he can help you out with your shooting fundamentals.
brass catcher isn't installed right. too far forward.
I don’t see another option on this setup. The Keymod slots dictate where I can mount a rail. If there is another option, I would be happy to hear it.
@@8541tactical I run this $20 catcher on my 6.5CM gas gun. www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XH1VYD6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 The base mount attaches to the rail. The catcher mounting shaft is held on the rail mount by a couple spring-loaded detent ball bearings for QD. The catcher has a fairly wide range of positioning depending on where you had to position the fixed base. I usually leave the zipper open on the bottom of the bag and the rounds drop to the table or ground instead of accumulating in the catcher. If it don't fit you can send it back. And with QD you can opt to remove it for that super technical position.