The Meaning Crisis, Platonism and Mystical Experiences | John Vervaeke
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- Опубліковано 19 гру 2023
- Philosopher, Cognitive Scientist and University of Toronto Professor, @johnvervaeke enters the mind meld!
In this one, we muse about the immortal wisdom of Platonism and Zen Buddhism. We also riff on the importance of direct, embodied experiences (both mystical and mundane), why reductionism is doomed, and why reality is neither top-down (created) or bottom-up (emerging), but both. Other topics include the meaning crisis, Carl Jung, how the above merge with modern cognitive science, and more.
Links for @johnvervaeke :
Website: johnvervaeke.com/
Awakening From the Meaning Crisis: shorturl.at/cfrA4
After Socrates: shorturl.at/dezM6
John's Talk on Neoplatonism and Transcendence mentioned: shorturl.at/aiy25
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You can tell Vervaeke is the real deal. Such a humble yet knowledgeable philosopher. I love watching him interact with other podcasters because he always brings such a lightheartedness and sincerity in his presence and work. Awakening from the Meaning Crisis has been so profound in my life for its practicality and for the hope it brings.
Same here regarding AftMC series. I remember a few years ago I was wrestling with how to language my feelings toward Vervaeke; long story short I was like "Oh s#|T! He's my hero!" I had never had a living intellectual hero until then.
@@MattFRox Matt's think alike
Milton Erickson is the reincarnation of Socrates
I found his work can become too propositional sometimes. I used to be in the AFTMC discord server, but it became a distraction from growth for me. His talks can help, but they don't substitute the ecology of practices you should be doing.
I think his wisdom can be spread more effectively if he goes to the institutions instead of staying in his network as well.
There might be potential for an even greater synthesis with some opponent processing(not adversarial processing). Humility is no substitute for dialogos.
John Vervaeke is like the guy at the office that makes you want to keep showing up no matter how lame or hard the office work is. His thoughts, writings and philosophical concepts of "cathedral consciousness" have been a game changer for me. Thank you, John!
Likewise. Really giving me some ontological meat to bite into!
John is one of my few current day heroes. Legit.
John vervaeke is a treasure.
bumping the algorithm for this
Good podcast Thank you... This is what I learned from my mystical out-of-the-body experience. The Ultimate Truth About Life!
Life is a circle, with no beginning or end.
Life gives existence to all that exists.
Life is real, life is true, life good, life is right.
Man is the paragon of life.
Man is life incarnate.
Man is Eternal Life.
Love Life!
Hey guys, we're ready for round 2. Go deeper! Deep into the convergence between the Eastern and Western mystical traditions, Jung, Neoplatonism, mystical poetry, dialogical Self and the phenomenology of walking around in these higher states. Among other practices, I do John's walking meditation every night with the dog. The profound feeling of Oneness and flowing with the Tao/logos has been and continues to feel true, and beautiful. Ultimately, binding the roots of connectedness to reality. Thank you both so much. Looking forward to the next!
The repeated use of 'profound', using propositional argument in favour of non-propositional knowledge and steering far from sense, have left a tear in my eye. Thank you.
Hi. I've been listening to John's talks all over UA-cam recently. Thank you for having him on, his values and ideas very much resonate with me.
I’ve recently started tuning into some of the conversations John Vervaeke is sharing recently about wisdom. It’s been inspiring.
Thank you, John, for realizing some of us need help with your vocabulary.
2 of my favorite speakers in 1 podcast. Love it!🎉
Thank you so much ✨🙏✨
I am so excited right now!!
I absolutely LOVE your podcast/YT!! You and Jesse Michels are my favs ❤ thank you for always having amazing guests and wonderful topics 🥰
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Hello everyone. Been looking forward to this for some time now!
I like how the hero's journey is literally step one of Plato's journey. Its like the initiation for something bigger. Its just the beginning instead of accepting and flatlining.
You have a way of getting to the heart in these intellectuals 🫧🪞🫧
Thank you 🙈
You keep flowing, you keep bringing the tip level content...and, I keep loving it. 👏👏
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The character floating on a boat, heart a flame and transcending and bypassing the multitudes of distractions in the short film, "I pet goat, II" comes to mind in conversations such as this. Wisdom is floating upon the waters
love John. it's nice here to see his more intimate/personal side.
Woohoo this is going to be awesome!
This was incredible. Thank you.
Thank you ✨🙏✨
There is no “falling in love” with the sacredness, it is not a verb. In sacredness love is. It’s beyond time therefore no action (falling into ). I do appreciate the poetry.
I could listen to you all day, thank you!!!!🙃🙏🎶🎶🎶🎶
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looking forward to this one
At min 42 I resonate with your assessment of most RELIGIOUS spirituality. It’s James Fowler’s spiritual formation / maturity model on level 3 - bowing down to the ultimate source of being and enter a programme of thought, word and deed / behaviour modification. And most religious institutions need people to stay at level 3 rather than mature further. Also spiritual is seen as some separate mystical reality rather than an integral dynamic dimension of being human. Certainly in the Christian world it shows they haven’t read their own scriptures very deeply. Oh well. Thanks for helping me sharpen my thinking. First time on your channel but have gained a lot from John many times. Keep exploring.
Hell yeah! Exciting stuff :)
Great podcast!
I always find it strange and sad that people like John always talk about mystical experiences, but it seems like nobody ever stops to ask what they are.
Amazing podcast like always. I was wonder if you’ve heard of Paul Chek. His information and life experiences are life changing. I would love to see you guys in a podcast. Thank you for your works.
So good .. thank you*
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Min 46 was an AHA moment - if reality isn’t showing up unexpected - it isn’t a new pixel reality of reality. It’s you.
I love what Jon has done....van you interview also Stephen Jenkinson from Orphan Wisdom School🙏
Nice catch.
🙏🙏🙏
Cognition as we know it, require embodiment -- but we don't know other modes of cognition might exist without embodiment/carnation
I want to stick around more through learning subjects. I get this sense of exhilaration about learning new things that oftentimes leads to starting a bunch of new things at once. Maybe I work on that in the new year. lol ❤
Vervaeke has gone so deep it’s silly
Min 48 - I would like to hear a conversation about unreceptive people who hold fast to their own BS. In my contemplation on these things, it seems to me that we can call that the EGOIC self (as Tolle might do) vs the soul self (true self) who is the me that longs to know who I really am and where I belong. It’s why Yeshua says to Nicodemus who was at the top of his game “you can’t get there from here Nico…you have to start from a different place (be born again).”
Two minutes in and the synchronicities have begun.
🌀
great
Great conversation. Just a note that Parmenides didn't go up but down. The chariot doesn't mean going up because Hades has a chariot for going to and from yhe underworld. Parmenides went down because he saw the Night Palaces and met the goddess there. He met Persephone in the underworld. Peter Kingsley explained the whole thing about Parmenides in his book In the Dark Places of Wisdom.
Ah-ha!
Indeed. If you can, I think you should invite Peter Kingsley to your podcast. It would definitely be great.@@THIRDEYEDROPS
Not knowing if you go up or down is part of the initiation... see Eshers' staircase drawings.
I'm always skeptical of placing public intellectuals on pedestals, transforming them into "thought-leaders" through cults of personality that put the individual on par with the ideas in terms of importance. A perfect example of this, IMO, is Jordan Peterson. Certain aspects of his work clearly filled a niche for certain overlapping demographics, but it quickly escalated until he became a locus of near-reverence among his followers (a word I don't choose lightly), and I think through ambition and audience capture, ended up conflating his professional and political aims in a way that ultimately undermined the benefits of his self-improvement program and the coherence of his philosophical output. While I enjoyed some of his lectures, I was never as drawn to him as some because, from my perspective at least, he seemed to play fast and loose with certain concepts from the field we share in common--Psychology--and created his own definitions of philosophical concepts like Post-Modernism that seemed to prioritize political valence over clarity or historical precedent. His public behaviour also seemed antithetical to the role of a clinician; including targeting individuals on social media in ways that could be considered toxic and instead of providing an example of psychological stability, he could come across as unhinged. I hold these views irrespective of the content of his political statements, but rather his role as a public clinician and intellectual. I don't believe one has to make a judgement one way or the other on the merits of his political opinions to criticize the influence that injecting politics into his self-help and philosophical work has had on the underlying message and his audience.
So, why do I bring up Jordan Peterson? Because I think John Vervaeke, as a cognitive scientist with an interest in rational approaches to transcendent practices, could satisfy a similar need in our society, but without the considerable baggage. I think Peterson, to his credit, tapped into something our secular, Post-Industrial, nihilistic society is lacking: _meaning._ However, John seems to approach these ideas from a more naturalistic, cognitive, and evolutionary framework that takes the more-or-less materialistic ontology developed since the Scientific Revolution and Age of Enlightenment for granted, as opposed to the supernatural metaphysics of the traditional, religious justifications for said practices. That's not to say Peterson wasn't working from a scientific framework, but that he was much more slippery regarding his religious assumptions. Based on watching "Awakening from the Meaning Crisis" and "After Socrates," it's clear that the standard John holds himself to and the metric by which he aims to judge his work is that which the scientific method demands: _truth,_ as determined not only by the rationality of his hypotheses, but their falsifiability. It's not the degree to which they fit the current political zeitgeist, nor the charisma of the individual proposing the ideas, and it's not based how many self-help books are sold, but the merit of the ideas themselves.
Why read Plato without Hegel? We’ve had plenty of time to posit that the biggest illusion in the cave is the one where you think there’s an outside.
D. C. Schindler Plato's Critique of Impure Reason
The problem I find with philosophy in general including Platonism is this aspect of the dependence on your knowledge, the dependence on reason. It’s like what was said early in the talk about being sure that you got the right understanding. It seems that one can never be sure of the truth by philosophy alone. That’s why a religion that share the core ideas of platonism for example, like knowing that one does not know, I find better exemplified in Jesus welcoming little children because of such belong to the kingdom of heaven. Depending on God is better, because you do not have to be accurate or self regulate your knowledge, but it is simply a receiving of God in the person of Jesus like a child. Reading the letter to the Corinthians should make this point clearer.
Ramakrishna talks about the Goddess (Nature) loving her games of hid n seek. And the Vijnana Bhairava Tantra says, "Like a mother enticing children with treats to get them where they need to be, so do I bring you to me."
Regarding the myth of becoming a daimon after death: Socrates (the sage, someone who lived well, "did it right") did that by becoming a daimon for those who internalize him afterward. Plausible interpretation?
Would Vervaeke regard Kripal’s “superhumanities” as harboring occulted narcissism?
Wonder is the perfect mental state.
“I know one thing, that I know nothing.” -Socrates
Animals know they are going to die too. You can’t say they don’t. I’ve seen it. They know death they fear it and run away from it.
Fear and run from it yes, but how can you say "animals *know* they are going to die"?
So close to art you be Im sure wee have salved this puzzle only together will all will be revealed the whole is here me X I see o .
WANTED - I am hoping to find there exists some kind of encyclopedia of the history of Ideas where concepts such as reborn, ultimate reality, the one, the world-soul and other philosophical terms are laid out from the beginning of history. Who, what, where, when information on people or cultures who introduced and/or accepted these ideas. Not a New Age book, but factual entries, a cut and dry history of ideas. Anyone?
Concepts don't come from anywhere because the Universe(ultimate reality) always conceptualizes itself(knows itself, proof of itself) as the Universe(ultimate reality). As Alan Watts says what happens once always happens once or it doesn't happen at all. What's more important the theory of right now or right now therefore right now is the theory of right now because right now always first believes it exist right now to know it always first believes it exist right now.
ua-cam.com/play/PLEwpMD47png4zQ9gXjbsyHZCFC0gaeyRf.html&si=Ft6OWIvhiXCgWe-7
Its not much, but I've been building a podcast library for the last few years, maybe you find it useful, peace
Try the heroic dose of p s y l o ...
@@theuniques1199 The universe can't be Ultimate Reality, it can only be material reality. I thought there was something more.
Milton Erickson is the reincarnation of Socrates
Michael. Why did Plato say that the study of geometry was a way of apprehending the Form of the Good? It has fallen to me to have that job. Come to Melbourne where I live and I will change the way you see the Universe. You will never see the 3:4:5 proportion triangle the same way again. Read what Plutarch has to say about that triangle in Moralia V. Follow your dream.
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The editing and censorship? What's that about?
Play-doe... Plato, he left his mark in some " hidden in pla-in sight " places!!!
We have a perception problem disguised as a goblin problem.
A little of this and a little of that.
1:35 - how you pronounced - Vervaeke - hahah - Verwacky :D haha
socratic irony
John doesn't believe in the soul? That makes the whole discussion insane.
The mispronounciation of his name had me cringing, but your channel looks interesting.
Academia is highly responsible for the actual meaning crisis. So why an academic to sort it?
“Academia” is not a monolithic entity.
Who says it is academia responsibility to sort it? John Vervaeke is just one person out of almost 9 billion people and he is only doing his part as we are all part of the collective intelligence of a cognitive network. It’s not just academia that is highly responsible, it is the entire system, including you.
Science is separate from the knowledge pool, as the leap of reason for the individuals engaged in feeding, exercising and paying attention to the powerful, often sequestered in different ways, knowledge pool object. Tech also has access to this pool, so perhaps doesn't have the same self correcting capacity as the academic, who can peer review, in academia. Tech can slip into trade language combined with sacred language which can get propositional.
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To obtain financial freedom, one must either be a business owner, an investor or both, generating passive income, particularly on a weekly and monthly basis .that's the key to living a financially stable life. I pray that anyone who reads this will be successful in life..
Investing in cryptocurrency is the wisest, is a platform where millionaires and future billionaires come to get inspired. If you've not been involved you're missing out.
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