The problem with TVs between speakers
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- If you go to a HiFi tradeshow your likely to see the stereo equipment between the two speakers, but then we hear that's bad. What gives? If you want to learn more, grab a copy of Paul's new book, The Audiophile's Guide. www.amazon.com...
I put a 70" picture of a better hifi system between my speakers. It optimizes my listening experience, it's basically science.
Top comment 🤣
In an ideal world we would all have a dedicated listening room, but we don't, we have an area that is generally smaller than we would like, and we have stuff, a partner, pets, crap that we bought on holiday that we thought would look good at home. Unless you're super rich, everything is a compromise, just learn to live with it.
Seems to me like the best way to test the best position of speakers is with your eyes closed, not knowing exactly where they are.
I’ve always read that it’s important for the main L&R speakers to be able to “see” each other, meaning that there should be an unobstructed line between the fronts of the speakers, with any gear or furniture being behind that line. In practice, this should not usually be that difficult to achieve. Most of your audio gear will be backed up near to the front wall (i.e., the wall behind the front speakers), while the speakers should generally not be directly against the front wall.
Then, if your speakers are pulled out a little from the wall behind them, the gear and/or TV between them will be behind that line between the fronts of the speakers. As well, if the speakers are even just 6”/15 cm. from the wall, their bass response will be smoother, because the peak-causing boundary gain from the front wall will be reduced. The imaging also tends to improve if the speakers are a bit further from the wall.
So, moving the speakers away from the wall, even a little bit, improves their sound in two ways: smoother and less peaky bass response, and better soundstage imaging. Win-win!
As for putting a blanket over the TV, I’ve often read that it’s helpful, but I haven’t tried it, so I can’t truthfully comment on it.
If you put a video of the band that’s playing on the television then you have a better image of the band than looking at the wall i suppose.
hologram or nothing
@@cougias 😆
@@cougias How about a nice thin/soft/flexible projector screen.
That may be true for music only rooms, but for a media room where you watch movies with surround sound the TV has to be between the main speakers. Few of us can afford a dedicated music room.
Sometimes it is also ideal to fill the room with some extra nitrogen. It allows speakers to breathe better and thus enhances soundstage.
Pros put the nitrogen IN the speaker cabinets, not the room.
Without a doubt, the best advice of the day!
@@hxhdfjifzirstc894 I think it's best to put the nitro in the listener!
For Home Theater, it's fine and it doesn't matter. The sound of a movie is not hampered at all. However, for two channel stereo, i made an absorber out of ordinary foam board by installing two plastic hooks that attaches to my 55 inch tv and glued two inch acoustic foam to the front side of the board. It drapes over the tv and looks and sounds great. When im done, i remove the foam board and store it until next time i do two channel stereo listening.
I'm working on something similar, maybe that hinges down from the ceiling.
@@TheAgeOfAnalog awesome...i like doing that kind of stuff.
Paul, you are so honest! hahaha.. In Hong Kong, our apartment is so small that we consider ourselves lucky to have a wall that is dedicated to listening.
I get it for music but home theater makes no sense without your left, right and center on both sides of screen and below it.So many people can afford only one system thus home theater doubles as music system.
I agree with this. I still live with my parents in my room. I have a pair of mission 753 speakers. They sound beautiful. But i still have to put all my stuff in one room. I have my tv in the middle of my speakers and it seems that this puts the soundstage above my tv instead of in the middle. My speakers stand at least one foot in front of my tv and this still affects the soundstage. Its just that i dont have a better solution. But i still notice the difference. Iisten mostly with my eyes closed so i can visualize the image more effectively but still there is some difference in the soundstage.
I don't believe it.
I agree. I have a small room, so I have 2 x two shelves audio racks and the amplifier in between the 2 audio racks to solve the cable issue. All placed in the front wall about 2.5 feet behind & in between the speakers. Its not perfect because it gets a bit of sound wave on the equipment but a compromise.
I can't say that I've found much issue with having my main speakers set up with my TV. Regarding reflections in general I have luckily not had much issues when measuring the frequency curve. The center image is so good that I've abandoned any thoughts of getting a center speaker for the set up (not that I would have used that with music, but for other media) and, when playing recordings with detailed soundstages I can clearly pick out detailed changes in the sound placement. I can't say that it's an issue that there's equipment where the musicians might be because I can see just as well that they aren't there if the space is empty, so I don't think the visual aspect matters.
The positive for me is that I can have full access to my home media server (with lossless music and UHD Bluray rips) on my TV, so when listening to music I have a nice GUI that displays big album covers and so on, plus that I get to use my best speakers for viewing video material. Concert videos are especially amazing.
I won't say that it's the absolutely optimal solution, but I think it's the best compromise.
If it is the best compromise for *you,* or gives you the most pleasure; that's all that matters. : )
@Fat Rat
I thank you, good sir!
* tips hat *
@@HareDeLune Yes, I could perhaps have expressed myself more clearly on that but since I was talking about my situation I automatically figured it would be seen as the compromise for just that - my situation. Setting up an audio system is always about making yourself (and any other persons living with you that care about it) happy with how it sounds and works in your home. :)
@@Evil_Peter
You got me to thinking.
Hi-Fi and the pursuit of good sound really *is* such a personel thing.
My opinion is that it would be better in general for audiophiles to talk about it in a more personal way.
For example, saying "Doing/adding 'x' in my system, I noticed a considerable improvement."; instead of "Doing/adding 'x' in your system will make a considerable improvement."
The problem then falls to the salesmen and reviewers, who simply cannot use that perspective effectively for what they are trying to achieve.
I have to wonder if that's what screwed things up to begin with? XD
At any rate, the DIY community is becoming more appealing to me these days. : )
@@HareDeLune It's a tricky matter since there is of course a scientific part to the hobby, and it's not sound to ignore it entirely. It is of course nearly impossible for most people to get a perfect listening room and be able to buy any equipment they desire, so there will always be compromises, and there you have to go by your own taste.
There is also no system that sounds exactly like having musicians in your room, and most recordings don't even try to replicate that feeling either, so the goal should just be to get a system that sounds good, which will by definition be a personal thing.
I guess one should listen to others to learn, but in the end make one's own decisions. As long as you enjoy your system it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
Because so many people complain about this and are probably misinterpreting Paul here, I am going to try to clarify here. I don't believe Paul is talking about reflections and interferences when placing a TV in the center behind speakers.The things you are looking at while listening to music could distract you when trying to imagine the soundstage right between the speakers.For home theatre this is the opposite of course. You want to attach the sound to the screen there.
A good way to test see if your Volume is louder behind the tv if so move the speakers in front. Thank u for the video I was wondering what I was doing wrong
I think the true meaning of "Audiophile" is "one who has enough room to not crowd the imaging location"😂
Here in the states it's a bit easier as homes are built with an insensible amount of extra space. I would recommend to start with 86'ing the spouse!
My Flat Screen HD TV is between my Infinity QLS-1’s But it is slightly back from the front axis of the speakers !! It DOES NOT INTERFERE WITH THE IMAGING AT ALL !!!!!
MATTER OF FACT, WHEN WATCHING A MOVIE USING MY STEREO SYSTEM, WHAT SHOULD SOUND LIKE IT IS COMING FROM THE TV DOES, AND WHAT IS OFF AXIS ALSO IS IN THE FIELD !!!
MY SPEAKERS HAVE BLOWN MY MIND FOR OVER 40 YEARS !!!
I don't understand why so many folks are sucked in by this man's bullshit.
@Fat Rat... and name calling is so progressive,, FM. It's my opinion,, your welcome to yours.
@Fat Rat nither did I say you were progressive, you do realise Neanderthals are extinct don't you.
Same setup as me, who the hell puts equipment in between and in front of the speakers ?? 🤷♂️
@Fat Rat nice edit,
The flush mounted monitor is usually not a big deal. Unused tv speakers passively re-emitting sound may very well deteriorate your main speakers' sound
Looks like you're sitting on a contemplation bench. It's certainly placed in a beautiful setting around your home
What is an acceptable height limit for anything between the speakers ?
If one does not stack audio equipment, you may get a call from the Royal Society For Putting Things On Top of Other Things.
Perfection can be a burden
Watching you on You Tube with TV between speakers. The tv has become a pre amp. With HDMI inputs TV has computer, blueray player, and TV over internet going to it. Now it gets confusing. If that is all a power amp connected to the headphone out jack makes life simple and it sounds better than the tv speakers. However if I want to add a CD, Tape, MP3, and source from another system, I use an integrated amp or receiver. I know it's a compromise. It's a relationship.
I am lucky to have two complete systems in the same room, a 5.2.2 and a 2ch only, the home cinema components are on a rack to the side and the two channel is on a low level rack in front of the TV, is there a difference in sound quality, of course there is but I like to think it's down to the different amplifiers used and not where in the room my equipment racks are located.
Ahhh sorry Mark, however what you just stated above makes no sense. Did you miss type something, or do you not understand the question / root issue? OK, well sorry... but yeah, makes no sense.
same
Stuff between speakers revisited...The 'image' is NOT between your speakers, it's in your head!
Your brain creates the image using the sound from both speakers. If there was an 800lb gorilla
between your speakers, the image would APPEAR to come from BEHIND the gorillas' belly button, or thereabouts!
YES IT WOULD! Paul, swing by the Denver zoo borrow a gorilla and check it out :O)
I have a low bench that is 2 feets (60 cm) high to the top, where I only have my Elac CC501 Center, and I can't imagine how a low bench like the one I have can affect the sound.
Like most people I don't have a dedicated sound room and have to have TV and equipment between the speakers. What I have done is to move my speakers out from the wall and in front of the tv equipment. Then, I take a large soft blanket and drape it over the TV and it covers the whole thing up (but is open to the back wall for air flow. Is this ideal? Probably not. But it does help!
It can help, yes. I have heard about this many times, from many different people.
It seems to be an acceptible compromise, but it is less than ideal, except perhaps in a lively room.
The reason it is not ideal is firstly, to add to what Paul was saying, that any objects placed between the speakers will interrupt the acoustic waveform that is coming from the speakers and giving you the imaging and soundstage that we audiophiles strive for.
As an aside, if having great imaging and soundstage is not a priority for you, then go for it!
Secondly, while mostly an acceptible compromise, any kind of cloth cover placed over televisions and etc. will have two general effects:
1. They will tend to soften hard reflections of the soundwaves that hit them, thus making their deleterious effect on the imaging less pronounced.
2. They will act as an absorbtive room treatment behind and between the speakers where ideally the sound should be scattered, not absorbed.
Thus causing a different harmful effect by muting the highs, and softening the image compared to what it would be like if the object was removed and the sound was diffused instead of absorbed.
Keep in mind that you may not notice the deleterious effects of such an arrangement until you compared the difference to an ideal setup.
This is one of those cases that can lead to infighting amongst audiophiles, because you may not know that there is a problem until the problem is removed. Then, you can hear the difference.
I hope that this explains things well in a way that is easy to understand. : )
A blanket on the tv will destroy the imaging of the speakers, because a blanket catches & destroys the 3 d sound waves that you want to bouce back at you. You want your speakers 2 feet off the ground. Higher or lower will hurt bass. You want speakers exactly 66 inches apart toed in to your ears. You want your speakers where no walls or nothing is around them for 4 feet or more. The best set up is a brick wall as a diffuser. Look up diffusor sound on google. keep speakers 4 inches from a brick wall is the greatest that dont need a sub. I never use subs. Dont ever pay much for a unsmooth sound sub. Do not have anything between the speakers, except a tv behind the speakers against the wall, especially between the tweeter & woofer, is the greatest thing you can do to help the imaging! The smooth glass on the tv makes the sound waves of the tweeter & woofer bounce off the glass harder, faster & smoother, more clear & imaging. Practically empty spaces all around the speakers & on the sides of the speakers helps. A tv against the wall doesn't clutter or harm anything. It's the absolutely best thing you could ever do to help the 3 dimensional sound! I am not great on electronics. I am great on understanding invisible sound waves
@@HareDeLune As I stated above, the ideal isn't going to happen. Unless I finally hit the Powerball jackpot of course. To my ears the blanket helps bring the sound out into the room and the sound moves beyond the speakers. The imaging is still far from perfect. I can't get air between the insturments, but it is better and deeper than with all of the equipment uncovered. My wife is extremely skeptical but on hearing it she said the sound was much more lifelike.
@@mikedickman7210
Of course.
Happy listening. : )
Edit: Oh, and good luck on that Powerball!
@@myronhelton4441
Well, not quite.
Acoustics isn't as intuitive as other aspects of audio and in general there's so much mis-information and mythology surrounding audio.
You stated quite a bit in that submission. The only thing I'd agree as being correct is that it's best if loudspeakers have as much uninterrupted space around them as possible.
The earlier and greater in level first room reflections are, the more damaging they are. Reflections after 20 msec are positive and perceived as spaciousness. However, early reflections especially before 10 msec hurt imaging and impose coloration.
Any flat and reflective surfaces between and behind the speakers degrades performance. That area needs proper wide-band diffusion accompanied by absorption below 500 to 600 hz or so, or as broad band absorption as possible.
The speakers at 2' elevation and exactly 66" apart?
Each speaker design, room, and listener position determines this, not some catch all rule.
That said, you're absolutely right about the speakers needing as much open unobstructed space around them as possible.
Well.. I want the best sound and I do put my equipment between the speakers and the TV hangs on the wall ;P It's more convinient for me and makes the room look better and it works really, really great :P
Not ideal but still better than 99% of people I know :P
Blame it on those newfangled universal disc players that need a big-assed graphic user interface - as in a big assed TV screen - in order to be set-upped properly and then to serch for the sound that you want -i.e. dither settings, sampling rate settings, etc.
Strange that you can't have a thin TV way back on the wall that you've covered with a half thick to thick blanket too stop all the reflections from it.
I guess that you can't have a wall-painting either on the wall in that case and I have big problems too accept that but I don't know so it's perhaps true.
I guess that you shouldn't bee in the room yourself for the best sound.
I agree completely there shouldn't be a "TV" between the LR speakers....
I prefer a 120" screen minimum...😁
I’ve no choice. Bilateral negotiations resulted in my speakers flanking a couch and an armchair. I solved the problem with minidsp SHD Studio.
Remove listener & all furniture from the room. Sound is reflected from listener's body messing with speaker image. Just have empty room & hifi gear.
The mansplaning, showing and spreding of your equipment to the general public sir is very well done here in this video even on a park bench breath taking.
Is our surround sound supposed to "surround" us off to the side in an oblong shape or something? Who in the world would NOT put a television between two speakers?
Just wallmount the tv
you want your rack to be in front of the speakers as a dividing wall is the best position. having the bass to mid-range separated but have some reflection upper mid to High frequencies is ok
wow this is really a video to test hd resolutions
Some of my greatest audio experiences have been when audio and video came together to please both my ears and eyes. Having a motorized screen with a 4K projector between the stereo speakers and additional speakers to support surround sound can offer an all-in-one listening room and home theater setup with the best of both worlds (why the heck did we come to separate them in the first place?). Lots of people don’t have rooms to spare for dedicated just listening or just home theater rooms.
I’d like to suspend my tv from the ceiling like they do at laundromats.
grant jonsn Another way is to have a motorized curtain in front of the TV that can damp reflections.
ThinkingBetter definitely easier than throwing a moving blanket over it every time I want to listen LOL
Fat Rat LOL you dirty dog!!! You made orange juice come out of my nose you jerk! Hahaha
Fat Rat Some people can’t even get permission to add room treatment.
Yep, that's what separates men from the boys, doesn't matter how much you paid for speakers until you do that
I like u paul
Once again I simply cannot listen to your bantering on and on about this and that get to the point tell us what is right tell us what is wrong good grief
D B then dont watch it, its really that simple.
D B Maybe you are on the wrong video? We are here for Paul and care about everything he has to say.
@Fat Rat Eh....who you calling D.B.?
😏
@Fat Rat Good big fella.....nearing the end...dunno where my time has gone.
@Fat Rat Sucks is all I can say.....but thought I would find year round here.
Went for a great bush walk today.....wanted to see Brolgas. Well, I saw them, but likely needed to be there late arvo or early morn you catch them closer by the water
I am more concerned with the clutter between my headphones
I used to be concerned about that clutter but at my age my concern there is nothing left!
I'm concerned about the empty space between my headphones.
Hook up a kilowatt amp and blow that clutter away.
Thanks for answering my question Paul. I was asking because I am setting up my listening/home office room and I have the choice or either front wall/short cables or side wall/longer cables. Will go for side !
Most of us are wishing that the television between our speakers was the worst problem with our room.
I don’t think a flat tv-set on the wall, 2-3 feet behind the speakers alignment is going to ruin your soundstage.
Maybe not ruin it but it doesn't optimize it either...studio spaces attempt to have most flat reflective wall surfaces covered with acoustic treatment if at all possible for a reason. If you don't have the option due to space or lifestyle, it's just a trade-off most of us can live with...but that doesn't mean the improvement isn't possible.
@@ddrenth studio spaces try to eliminate parallel reflective surfaces, but the ones of the last decade+ also usually specifically put a computer screen between the monitors they're mixing the album on. the ones that don't have that usually don't because they have some combination of a large glass window to watch the live room, or a large flat metallic console providing it's own reflections. and then at the mastering stage there's once again almost always flat faced racks of gear and/or a computer screen right in the sweet spot between the speakers.
How about 4-5 mannequins between the speakers?? Would I get a better image of a R&R band or jazz quartet??
If they have long 70s hair you will get great sound absorption!
You could call your mannequin quartet or quintet The Dispersions.
Gotta love those have naked chicks
@Mark Victor No treble!
No, the performers have already been captured by the microphones, so you're just adding people who aren't there.
I have a TV on the wall and a curtain that I can pull in front of it when not in use. Seems fine. Perfect - maybe not, but I like to look at all the gear and the symmetry.
Remember to pull the curtain back to optimise movies!
To each their own I guess
That's not what's really important. What's really important is there's a tree coming out of Paul's head!
It's a hi fidelitree.
@ Charles....head transplant. It's one of Paul's new business ventures.
Sure beats a toupee
Haha
@@davej9228 well done!
I have tried it, and I've found that as long as you keep your gear below ear level or around shoulder height (when you're seated) it wont have any negative affect on imaging, even if you place them between speakers, just keep them below ear level and you should be fine.
Negative effect. :-)
It's quite easy to determine via an ETC measurement.
This is the industry standard for determining whether there's early energy reflected to the listener, how early, and at what level and what frequency spectrum.
There's so much speculation in the audio enthusiast community and the same tools studio acousticians use are available so inexpensively ... it's quite easy.
For a $100 mic and free software that's state of the art (REW), one can measure.
Or for $300 OmniMic product is even easier ... seriously less than 5 minutes and you're measuring!
Knowing what's ACTUALLY going on and addressing it, is a force multiplier in audio unlike anything else.
Perfect world' even the speakers would be behind an acoustically transparent barrier. I'd have nothing other than a tablet controlling Roon and the rest would either be a pitch black room or a view out into the garden. No indoor plants. No artwork. Like I said.- perfect !
well, I prefer to watch live discs to studio - blu Ray of Opera's Anna Netrebko , La Traviata for instance. and the speakers are about 2 ft on each side. works for me. practical rules.
A TV behind the speakers is no more an audible obstruction that the wall. I hear you re the illusion of stereo, for sure - close your eyes if you need to. But for enjoying a good blu ray concert, film etc- the TV is in the right place!! - sits back and continues Hans Zimmer live in Prague -
With old box Tv's this may have been relevant, but with today's flat TV's I don't see it affects the sound much.
Today's flat TV's affect sound even more due to the larger reflective surface they present to sound waves. That's the whole point of room treatment for walls and corners also...
@@ddrenth please explain, i mean, there is a wall, or a screen, both hard reflective surfaces, no?
@@amitraam1270 Yes, you are correct, a flat panel TV isn't much different than a flat back wall...but a treated back wall is 100% better than an exposed flat panel TV. Any of these audiophile youtubers including John Darko, Steve Guttenberg, Andrew Robinson, New Record Day, Zero Fidelity will all highly prioritize room treatment for your listening area...and that will always include the back wall, corners, side walls, and floor (some go as far as ceiling installations). I think every single one of them has a dedicated video on this topic...including Darko's release just today. I get some people simply don't have the option for a separate listening setup without a TV, but for those who do have the space, and the ability to install even basic treatment, it is an advantage.
@@ddrenth sure, vs treated surface, no competition.
Setting everything up in an ideal manner is virtually impossible for those of modest financial means.
Fitting a decent system into a small space AT ALL is hard enough to do.
In my longest-lasting residence so far (over 15 years), I had the audio equipment off to the side
and most of the video equipment (all but the LD player) between, but well behind, the speakers.
The arangement came about not because I wanted it that way but because that was the only way I could get it to fit.
Sound-wise it was pretty good, I thought, though I'm sure there were many errors and deficiencies of which I was blissfuly unaware.
Makes sense, but no equipment between the speakers is just not practical in most real world settings.
Thanks for your comments Paul they're very valid but unfortunately sometimes you can't do anything about it I personally don't have a separate room thank you very much for your show.
It doesn't...but if you're that anal about sound quality on TV...then hey cool. But I have a life to live. I love good sound but damn... Audiophiles really are ridiculous at times. Have fun chasing the dragon. LoL
Basically he just described shit most people won't even notice, let alone hear. Unless you're obsessed with that. But most people won't. Just enjoy the audio or movie. Damn. By the way. Lifelong 40 year old audiophile here. Just enjoy It. Ok?
i have a 75 inch flat screen betweet (slightly behind) my tannoys. my friends cant believe that the voices come from the speakers. imaging is sharp as heck.
Stereo 👍 Promotes Brain Health and well being.
Television 👎 Makes your brain become a zombie.
YESSSS!!!
I have a TV between my speakers, so I can see what my Atari Video Music is showing while enjoying the music.
Hi Paul, thanks for your great videos and inspiring ideas!
Best regards from Mexico!
I'm someone who just doesn't care about getting the best possible sound quality or the best sound imaging. Having my TV between my speakers works well enough for me. I play my music just to enjoy it, not to worry about how real it sounds, whats wrong with that?
Nothing! Keep it that way, you’ll live a happier life.
New cameras? Video quality is awesome. When can we start ordering the books?
Probably the light outdoors is the thing making the image better
I use my 70" TV as a baffle for my horn system. Thus it's part of the speaker and adds to the overall sound quality.
Novel concept - I like it.
I remember the days of CRT TVs... now those produced quite some noise 😅
Oh, this is BS Audio.
I get you.
Tks Paul though it'd be easier said than done say in Hong Kong where I'm from!
This is a bit like saying asphalt damages your tires when you drive. Okay, but I need to use my car on asphalt if I want to drive it.
Other's call it bitumen.
@Fat Rat Have you tried using just the built in speakers on today's televisions? I don't think that should be anyone's choice.
@Fat Rat Hi FR. His analogy has to do with necessity. If you have a TV and stereo gear, like most of us, you have just one room to enjoy them and positioning is limited. So, if you want to drive your car, there's little choice but to drive on the roadway supplied.
@Fat Rat My "great" room is quite small. About 20x18 with the TV in the corner and the speakers to each side. The divan is along the long wall opposite a slider patio window. I'll send you a picture soon. It's not sonically perfect by any means ;-)
@Fat Rat There, there, little rat.
Yeah I’m with everyone else in the Comments - a Flat Screen TV on the Wall is not going to be an obstruction
normally the speakers have diferent types and they are made to be used in a perfect position so it can give you the best sound putting them in front of you with a tv or hi-fi system inbetween you would have 20% of it´s quality and stereo efect , i´m going to writte about normal speakers 2 or 3 ways and bass reflex, normally it also depends on the size of the room ,the better way is using the corners of the room to put each speaker and left a 30 cm espace between the wall and the box of the speaker no matter how big is the room, it starts to give you a more rich sound in high and low frequencies ,you´ll notice that by having the bass knob on defeat or 0 position while if in front of you with the hi-fi or tv equipment, you need to increase at least four in the scale to have the same bass level but also you´ll feel the bass not as a direct sound but cleaner coming to you and bass either than listening to it you also feel it, if powerfull enough it makes vibration on the windows of your furniture or even in your body, the treble is the same you want the sound to come natural as if the band was playing in the room so the more apart they are, the sensation of quality in the sound increases if next to eachother it doesn´t give you the sound they were built for as the sound controls don´t have a strong response as it should, this is the basic instalation ,there ´s other types of speakers and normally they come with instructions for it´s instalation, but if you have a 4 speaker system you would put the other two behind you in the same position of the front ones if possible, normally with early 70´s 4 channel matrix is the same type of instalation, but i would writte for hours to explain how diferent speakers are to be installed on your listening room, regards
OK Paul - you seemed to skip this -- assuming the speakers are located in the best spots in one's room and these is a lot of space between them - certainly enough for a 65+ inch TV or screen then the vast majority of "us" who live in the real world of not having a dedicated listening space will put a screen there and a centre channel or sound bar. Some like Steve Guttenberg very clearly do this - but when one sees this on his vids it is clear he has placed a thick quilt over the TV -- presumably to provide a better look, but also to reduce reflections.
Since this setup is reality for so many my hope was you would address reflections and other sonic issues. In my case my speakers are about 11 feet apart and I have an 8' wide AV unit which contains a matching centre channel, large TV, my amplifiers and digital sources. My analogue sources are more accessible off to one side. Obviously I have couches, chairs, 2 large ottoman, curtains wall hangings/pictures and a host of other crud in my lounge/listening room -- the best deal I could strike was to bring the mains into the room away from front and side walls.
Its a question of space Paul most of us live in the real world!
I cover my 55” screen (centered between my speakers on the wall) with a table cloth when listening. Kills the reflections nicely. Center image is very good.
I wouldn't have thought a table cloth had enough mass to do much of anything.
I'll give it a go.
DARKFiB3R it’s a pretty dense weave
Keep in mind that, while killing reflections, it also acts as an absorbtive room treatment in an area where you ideally want to disperse, rather than absorb. : )
Hare deLune that’s why I prefer a crinkled mess of aluminum foil instead of a tablecloth.
@@graxjpg
Have you ever heard the sheet of foil resonate at certain frequencies?
I have it on good authority that random pieces of rough-cut wood, placed in totally random positions covering the area behind the speakers and the point of first reflection on the side walls is one of the best solutions. : )
Didnt really ans the question again.
These days, flat screen TV is set on the plane of the wall behind the speakers.
What effect do their built in speakers have on the main speaker's output?
I cover my living room with a throw for serious listening, just in case.
No tv in the music room!
Like many others, ive never noticed an issue as long as the equipment is behind the speakers and not interfering with the main dispersal sound. Maybe my systems are simply not revealing enough to notice (im a 15k system kinda guy). I spent a long time in my youth both installing and working in studios and they follow none of this logic, which is baffling if its easy to hear...
My wife is going to be gone for a few days and I will pull the speakers out from the wall and play around with them while she's gone, but they will have to be back near the wall before she returns. Basic Math: Happy Wife > Excellent Imaging.
I noticed zero difference in the imaging when i removed my 60inch Panny plasma from the rack. Speaker front baffles are well in front of the screen of course. I think only if the TV is well in front of the baffles and the speakers are toed in more causing obstruction would i notice it. Even then i suspect most of what id notice would be from the toeing in anyway. No removal of my TV is ever going to fool me into thinking a band is suddenly playing live in my room. Hifi and live music in any room or venue is easy to distinguish apart regardless of hifi cost. I recall an expensive Audio note system at north west audio show last yr playing a violinist Cd. Said violinist then came and played live. It was easy to tell them apart.
If more directional speakers are used, the television is no problem. It is only an issue when one believes the myth of wide dispersion being better for a bigger sweet spot. Wide dispersion only increases room problems.
I usually love Paul’s advice, but this is the dumbest thing I’ve heard from him. I love both music and movies and it’s a community experience in our house. We all sit together and enjoy both. If I want to spend some alone time with the music I just turn off some lights. It’s even better than having a dedicated listening room.
Is moving your loudspeaker more forward not a solution or an improvement?
Grtz Phil
I have a Samsung “Frame” tv between the speakers. Flush to wall and only projects about 1.5 inches. How bad could they be?
@Fat Rat So what if you place your speakers further up and away from your components... say 6-8 inches ahead?
I really don’t get this. The illusion of musicians between the speakers is just that, an illusion. Things in between won’t affect that. They will only affect room acoustics but they do that wherever they are.
I am seriously guilty of this as well, and especially so with my Martin Logan's 🙃
In a home theater system
You have speakers on the right And left of the TV.
You also have speakers on the left and right of the couch and a subwoofer in the middle
So I guess what you are saying is the stuff that you're doing is not for home theater just for Great sound systems.
My TV Is around 1.5 meters behind speakers, and I noticed big improvement when i lowered it below ear level. But the biggest difference is when TV is turned off. I think that distraction from music that TV can make, even if it is only some static picture is quite big, just having something to look at takes away that feeling of empty space behind speakers.
Just think of the extracost of buying 10 meters Nordost Odin 2 speaker cables just so can have the stereo beside you.
I'm building a hinged tv mount and modifying a screw drive garage door opener so I can fold it up against the ceiling for 2 channel listening, remote control included only have a couple hundred dollars in the whole project
Moving the equipment rack to the side from center is a compromise, not a full solution. Youre trading a change in sound from the middle to a change in sound from only one side. Youre losing out on the symmetry with the rack on the side wall. The absolute best solution would be to have the equipment rack behind the listener dead center.
the tv goes in the middle, speakers at the sides..theres no other way...at least for home teathre
Well, it would be hard to enjoy video separately from the sound, or standing. I thought the music is for enjoying and relaxing...
My Marantz SR7012 was just pushed an update today. Any idea what it included? Hopefully to allow my Heos Tidal App to play Atmos music! 😉👍
how about putting rack in between speakers but it is quite low about 50cm tall. is it still bad?
Just put the speakers at ear level and the bottom of the television at the height of the TOP of the speakers.
I stream my Tidal from an app on my Sony TV right to my Denon, works great, only need one remote to control everything, sounds just as good as when I was using my laptop
Of course the TV is in the middle, how else will we watch films in stereo ?
This is disappointing to me. I take great respect in what Paul says so I said "Oh No... " out loud when I watched this lol. Not only would I not be able to do this practically but also financially because I have a set budget for my cables - and longer ones would be more expensive. I don't really want to have the equipment off to the side because the entire plan was to have the equipment be the showcase so to speak (kind of like how you guys do at trade shows) and have it right in the middle. But my plan was to have the speakers in Front of the furniture - and also towed in a little towards the listener. Wouldn't this be a good compromise? Note there won't be TV there, just the equipment on furniture.
The speakers I am getting are floorstanders which were made taller from the previous version and are intended to be placed on the ground. They are already tall but should I also get stands so the height of the speaker can bypass the height of the furniture? I just want to enjoy and I've already had too much overthinking this setup.
I had to retype this entire thing because my damn phone erased three paragraphs - grrr lol.
Thanks
I wouldn't sweat it. Most of us have to compromise in setting up our systems. You can get fantastic sound without your system being set up 100% perfectly. My system has a tv stand and a flat screen tv in the middle of the speakers. The sound is incredible and I still get the center imaging that Paul describes.
I'm curious as to the consequence of placing speakers on either side of a window & indeed a heat source, such as a radiator?
A window would create a more transparent image, while the radiator would produce a warmer sound.
@@thegrimyeaper 🤣💖it.
That is so hilarious 😂 I could not stop laughing thank you for that
how about a TV mounted to the wall above the speaker level?
Yep, as much as it looks nice and symmetrical, that's the only benefit, but it's up to the owner to decide if that benefit outweighs the cons, I guess. Maybe modern flat TVs, mounted on walls isn't so bad though (apart from high frequency reflection of the screen), but not on the floor between the speakers.
@Fat Rat you dissing my tv fella? 😯
I don't know Paul. Like many others have said in the comments, I, too have my tv (a big box) and stereo equipment in between both speakers and it sounds fine to me. The sound stage seems to go behind the back wall (music) and vocals are projected forward (depending on the mix) with sounds happening on the left and right. Watching tv, the sound seems to come right from the tv and my speakers are not spaced evenly. One speaker is 4 ft from tv the other is 5 ft from the tv. And I've heard lots of super expensive hifi systems when they had hifi shows in LA back in the early 90's.
No winning with this an empty room would echo like made with all reflective walls and no damping.ive just bought a 3d wall panel that would be act like a defuser and doesn't look as bad as foam or acoustic panel all over your living room walls.