I told NCsoft people think their game is p2w trash, here's what happened...
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- Опубліковано 22 лис 2024
- I spoke with the person running Throne & Liberty from NCSoft directly, and told him that people think their game is P2W trash, here's what happened...
My full Throne review: • Is Throne & Liberty Wo...
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Guys, please post your thoughts in the comment section, there's a good chance AGS reads this...also follow me @ twitch.tv/kanonxo - streaming almost everyday
Black Desert was F2pP2w ands in the West they promised us a Buy2Play and no P2W and it turned P2W just after a few months of purchase.
I have a feeling NCSoft hasn't looked about at their past. They lost so much with Aion and Blade & Soul which are two korean games with a heavy focus in PVP. Also to quote what Choi Moon said "The publishers have a better understanding of their respective regions" this would be important if AGS actually cared and they don't we see this in Lost Ark where the game is still very p2w. Even though feedback from the western audience is important I have no expectation AGS or NCsoft will do anything regarding this, whales will destroy the game in the west. Would be nice to see them remove the ability to purchase Lucent with real money and have cash shop filled with decent cosmetics to incentivise players to buy.
Please compare how bad the P2W is compared to say ... archeage? I always found a way to keep up with whales there. Just had to be smart.
@@bumblefoot5 You want comparison check how active archeage still is oh yeah that's right its dead. Every heavy p2w korean game tends to die, some survive but the rest dead.
My prediction is that TL will be played for a few months, and in a year it will have lost about 70% or more of its playerbase, if they keep it p2w.
NCsoft has a history of having trouble adapting to the Western market. It happened with Lineage 2 that, despite being an excellent game, monetization caused it to decline in this market.
I can't believe you pushed them on Lucent, well done. You'll never be invited again though 💀
Yeah to bad hes black listed from now on.
If you judge by their stance on lucent, I don't think these events are going to last anyway
Eh ncsoft launcher is only global now Korean players pay for this and the few people left in western audience clearly pay for these extras as the guy said he’s not trying to design something doomed for failure which is people crying about p2win and have nothing to play
Also any game that has an economy is pay to win , hell look at archrage they will just straight up steal packs from noobs early game and play politics to get everything the only thing not pay to win is career no stat co op
@@ArantyrDarkhand you are wrong. they just announced they are separating west version from korean version last night.
and they are removing aggressive p2w system from the west version and addressing lucent farm and purchasing.
Wow im in shock, someone actually told them in their faces how p2w the game can be. You sir are the goat for that. Its very different to complain online and in forums compared to looking at them in person and just saying it how it is. Sincerely appreciate you doing this 🙏
I mean you can buy gold in WoW and no one ever complained 🤷🏻♂️
Well because in wow you can throw all the money you want at it but you’ll still be dog sht at the game lol…
@@Renard-h7d it wasn't always like that and people definitely complained about it when it was introduced
@@Renard-h7d People deffinitely complained lol....
@@Holyfield-xy3fbsome games nowadays do that alot but still have negative feedback and you know what they say? "i top up for the game and my friend didn't but how come we didn't have any differences, this game is a scam" what can u say about that 😂
"we are not trying to do something that is bound to fail" said every company that closed their game year after release.
Technically it's not a fail if they sell more microtransactions than it cost to translate the text.
and yet they ALREADY FAILED in KR.
This whale vs whale sandbox that took 8 yrs to develop is specifically designed to extract as much money as possible over a short window so we can consolidate servers and keep costs low.
Imagine creating a game that the starved MMO community all wanted to play!! You'd probably see a million copies sold and then the game die because of server queues and you'd probably name it new world!
My guess is right or is it? bec. its already cliché the devs said that. lmao
Not even a year, a couple months at best for most. They just cash in on the preorders and people buying shit the first week and you get the copypaste “oh were sorry butbwe have to close the server its a sad in “x” realm
Thanks for speaking up for the Western players. There is definitely a cultural difference in gamers. Whenever I tell my gaming friends that I'm excited for Throne and Liberty, they respond exactly as you said: P2W garbage.
Its weird when you think about it though because outside of gaming the whole western society is based on p2w, we just hate it in games but not in life.
@@MS-wz9jm It's not any better in life but there's no point complaining about it because that's just how it is, nobody expects life to be fair. But people, quite rightly in most cases, expect a game to be fair. Nobody expects this game to be fair though, because as sure as the sun will come up tomorrow, it'll be P2W garbage.
@@MS-wz9jmreal life is already p2w, games are a form of escapism and don't need to be p2w
@@MS-wz9jm because video games serve as one of the few ways you can escape the capitalist reality, people feel very strongly about losing that as well.
@@slyace1301it's a f2p game, what do you expect
Good on you for giving in-person feedback. Keep up the good work!
That last guy is the reason why they keep these P2W bs intact in their games. Almost as if KR players love flexing their wallets. Money = power. Though the west isn't much different in some ways if you think about it.. skins, battlepasses. Kids will eat that sht and shame you for being poor cause you don't have fancy cosmetics. lol
@@Oryyyt I just hope AGS gives them a better understanding of our adversion to this though. I can't know for sure, but I wonder if Koreans are seeing Throne good as it is because of how much worse other the monetization is in other Korean MMOs.
@@Oryyyt if they didn't add the p2w stuff in the game servers would be closed from them making no money... they can't sustain the server off cosmetics alone lol
@@xDarkCrusader yeah tell that to GW2 and FF14. lol P2W in BDO and Lost Ark(before bot spam) works cause their gameplay is king. T&L has yet to prove it's long term appeal. It's not solo player friendly, combat is mid and the gameplay loop quality will depend on updates. The P2W aspects WILL drag it down.
@@Oryyyt i played KR till a month ago never spent a dollar and got plenty of lucent for my build via auction house so i really don't get the complaint this is a pvp based MMO it's not meant to be done alone join a guild wait nvm u don't really have to for pvp events anymore because they made it faction based lol.... or better yet if u wanna do it alone just wait for arenas your argument about p2w i get it trust me but just about every mmo will have some sort of p2w at least in this one i can get the premium currency from just playing not only swiping... imagine a p2w game that lets u make its premium currency in game by just logging in and playing i only see warframe doing that.
What I found most worrying was that they think AGS will know what the western audience wants...
AGS knows what Kotaku wants, and doesn't seem to care what western audiences want.
Yea. After Lost Ark it's clear AGS is clueless. LA is just as p2w in the west as it is in Korea.
Yea I find it worrying that they put so much trust in amazon when amazon hasn't had any successful game(s).
AGS is all about profits.
For real, after the last shit show with NewWorld, a looot of people just added AGS and those devs to the black list.
Saying that AGS has better understanding or can handle the west market better is like to say:
I don't know how to drive, but this money here 🐒 is a western monkey, he will do it for me 😅
Lot of non answers and dodging. We shall see. Good on you for keeping the foot on the gas during questioning
they are not gonna comment to anything like out the blue, we can hope the take the feedback series
I was actually impressed how much he pushed the topic, well done Kanon
They dodged everything. It will be another fail. First 6 months it will be wowowoow and people be like, fuck this p2w
They already gave us our answer. This is NCSoft, they didn't get their reputation by accident.
@@Erumyr Yeah thats how Lost Ark went for me and everyone I knew playing they just couldn't be bothered when they started hitting that wall where P2W became super noticeable.
Korean mmos could dominate the mmo market in the west if they stopped being so god damn greedy.
Thats absolutely true. And absolutely sad.
Western mmos could dominate the mmo market in the east if they stopped being so god damn stupid
Yeah, whenever I see a great Korean MMORPG, my first automatic reaction to it is "please someone hack them and release the game, so people can host it as private server" as it happened with Ragnarok online for instance and it was the best MMORPG gaming experience in my life. I would've played original server, if it weren't for the greedy publisher. This feeling is still strong, even so many years later.
Hell naw... Most ppl don't like that anime otako uwu sempai bullsheeet
@@coroto You're very wrong lol
So TLDR from the feedback: "Thanks but not thanks"
yea cuz fuck that. game is not p2w.
He didn't even want to address the topic at first but he will eventually realize that noone cares about a 6/10 p2w game because theres already hundrets of those.
@@abdelrahmanrad rich of you commenting that on a Kanon video when he himself called it p2w in his review. No matter how tiny it is the west won't accept it on a game coming from NC
ye in short: "it will be p2w garbage" but didnt expected more & rather have a p2w from the start than a game that starts without p2w & becomes p2w later so u dont regret not playing it
I think he made it clear with "we are not going to make something that would fail".
To me that means they will do whatever gets them the highest amount of profit for the lowest amount of investment. That might very well be just a bunch of whales playing it and nobody else.
Big respect for you to actually have gone there and told them directly in person how the western audience (majority anyway) views their P2W practices. Well done!
big ball moves
Thanks for asking the question no one else in the room was brave enough to ask. If you had managed to sway NCSoft, you would have done more good for T&L in the west than any marketing campaign could. Not only do players in the west hate overt p2w, but you can also multiply that sentiment x100 when it comes to PVP centric games.
I think they are going to have an incredibly difficult time retaining players with this strategy, which is a shame, because so many other parts of the game look promising. But losing pvp battles to a guild that dumped their paycheck into the game is going to remove all of the fun from the game instantly for most western players. Unfortunately, people don't need video games to experience a world where rich people have a better life than them. That's the real world, y'know, the one we are trying to escape when we boot up a video game.
Also P2W shirt guy was hilarious, what a legend
Appreciate you sharing your thoughts!! Was good meeting you in Cali!
Yeah let's hate on the players that pay and keep the game running so YOU can play it for free... get a grip... oh and get a job.
lol what do u mean dump their paychecks into the game.... there is nothing to pay for in the game except the battle pass. literally. stop being delusional and do your job as content creator. learn about games before talking about them.
That's why despite what people kept saying about NW at launch, it was the most fun times I had in an MMO.
Fully free2play (ok it had a pay once to play price, but besides that i mean), I was one of the top 3 healers in my server, and it felt so amazing knowing that my skill and build alone determined that, not my wallet size.
Asian devs seem to fail to understand that concept at all.
Kanon: "P2W is hated in the West! Are you aware of this cultural difference?"
NCSoft: Amazon bought rights to publish, we got money, no changes - thanks for your time.
Kanon: "P2W is hated in the West! Are you aware of this cultural difference?"
NCSoft: *pats wallet and looks at balance sheet*
"What cultural difference?"
Sad but true... People in the west like to talk a big talk, but they walk the same walk as KR when it comes to P2W
Considering that T&L did so bad in Korea, that NCSoft didn't even mention it in their revenue reports, they're patting an empty wallet.
@@saviourly3186this ^
@@saviourly3186 just doesn't matter when the few spends so much money
@@JakeAtkins11 that's all it takes
Wow I gotta say Kanon just earned massive points in the west just now!!! Yes 🙌. Thank you for telling them in person about the P2W! I never seen a content creator go this far and beyond to help the western audience. This was great Kanon kudos to you!
I can’t believe the others sitting near you tried to defend p2w. 🤦♂️
🙏
I laughed so hard when the guy who turned around had P2W on the back of his shirt.
Great questions Kanon! I’m still going to play the game when it’s released in the west however, the p2w does worry me a bit.
I'll still try it out but like you the p2w makes me worry cause some say Amazon games pushed out all the aggressive P2W systems but how long will that last tho? I'm okay with microtransactions for costumes, pets, mount skins etc sense people LIKE collecting that stuff and would fork out money for those items looks at Fortnite game made MILLIONS no BILLIONS from people buying cosmetics.
Ncsoft should go the Fortnite route with cosmetics.
I want a shirt like that.
Stop crying about P2W games, open your eyes and look around, EVERY game ever made is P2W. The only games that aren't P2W are First person shooters, fighting, or single player games. Anyone crying about P2W games should stay away from MMORPG's/MMO altogether.
KEKW. it's Kooncoon wearing the P2W shirt
xD
No pay, no win
The most based Primeval in Archeage
Kooncoon legend of archage!
damn! never thought i'd heard that name ever again! legend!
I appreciate you continually pushing your thoughts/feelings about the P2W aspect. As a Western player myself, I have zero interest in playing game with it's current monetization. It just seems like another cash grab game.
this tl meet up actually pretty much made p2w very thin in this game
@@wolfhowllionheart9367 Any pay to win in a game makes it garbage. It's either the game has pay to win or it doesn't: I don't play it or I do.
@RealHyqu then sorry for you will miss a amazing game and the early day rush is the best for mmos
Hyqu is a bonafide communist, just hasn't woke up yet.
@@wolfhowllionheart9367 What? Early day rush is gonna be the worst xD Server problems, bugs etc. Also if u are not a whale it doesnt matter if u gonna start early or not. Typical Korean MMO at its finest, Lost Ark pretty dog shit, people were doing T3 content where F2P players were gate keeped at early T2 even if u played 24/7 having 6 alts. I will lie if i told u that i wont be playing this game, but for sure i wont be paying and if i see that my grind is pointless like in Lost Ark i will stop playing probably like 90% of players after a month.
I remember playing Aion with my boys back in the day before the whole "F2P" but P2W model happened, NCSOFT golden days imo. Those days are seemingly long gone unfortunately. I'll be trying the game nonetheless. Good video and you are right, I don't think they understand the western audience.
Aion on release with sub was so golden, I remember Abyss hunting and in the dredgion BGs... I treasure those days deep in my soul forever. Still play with the same people till this day
@@janninesanchez1091 Yep, Aion on release was wicked fun.
@@janninesanchez1091 Same, I already played GuildWars 2 back then and I play it still today, but I also played the original Aion with subs and even the Aion classis re-release, but it instantly was full of bots and RMT again so it was unbearable. Today I only play GuildWars 2 - with someone I brought over from Aion.
same i'll be playing but if its too p2win then i'll quit...
@@DunkelBisBunt New Aion classic was fun for a week, then it was just bot land and RMT... like you mentioned. Also the tiger coin ordeal was pretty messed up. Day 1 people had millions of Kinah already, impossible amounts of Kinah on day 1 for classic Aion.
I mean I got a lot to say about this:
First of, mad props to you for taking the time to attend the T&L Dev Panel (or whatever they call it)
I personally dont care much for things like these because its all just show & tell, and at the end of the day, its in their interest and their job to sell their product, and for many people, an adequate way of demonstrating this is to answer questions the fans and gamers may have. Its all part of the business no doubt!
I think theres an argument to be had on both sides. But when I observe these things I notice something rather significant
People who go out of their way, whether provoked, or out of necessity or whatever; to defend a company's engagement in these monetization strategies, always held the same sentiment: "It's not >so< bad"
I believe this is a flawed argument, and a subtle, not necessarily intended, but it does happen; attempt to dissaude the conversation into a completely different purpose!
What sentiment am I supposed to walk away with when the conversation isn't "the game is good", but that the game's monetization is "not so bad". Am I really supposed to settle for that? Am I supposed to be happy? Or enthusiastic?
Is this really what we want or even need in the game industry? Games that are "not so bad"?
I understand companies need to make money, but I don't fundamentally agree with the monetization stategies that people tend to call P2W for many reasons. Namely, it has too much control on the game's ecosystem, often leading to be overly reliant on the engagement, or it simply gives too much leeway for the individuals who spend. This grossly waters down the game on a qualitative basis, and the population and power balance in the game often tends to suffer as a result of it.
You will either need spenders to fill the void in an ecosystem because less players are farming, which overall lowers the quantitative representation of sub-systems in the gamespace that holds demand, that allow for broad, umbrella item drops quintessential to gear progression that most people tend to overlook.
And whats worse is that a common trend in MMOs is that developers rarely take the time to consolidate these things properly, when they're either under-populated, or the drop rate is just too low and the demand is too high.
A good example of this is Aion remake, Aion's game design was originally based of a pay2play subscription model, and the game's intricate framework was heavily dependent on this concept, when they relaunched the game in remake, they overlooked the overall gearing process, items such as manastones, stigmas, and godstones, became grossly sparse by comparison, due to the simple fact that open world grinding had been completely phased out of the game, in a predatory attempt to assaude players into paying for higher subscription tiers, to get higher drop rates, or just the ability to drop items in general. Nobody purchases these products, and the company has had to constantly make event after event to compensate the significant demand in these items.
Everybody is buying from the market, but NOBODY is farming for the items, because the item system got overhauled, and the developers did it lazily.
The demand is SKY-high, and these are rare items their market value is outrageously inflated and people are now reliant on events and whales, because the item doesn't drop anymore without subscription and nobody can get it organically, because the publishers got greedy and used the entire ecosystem as a hostage to try and coerce gamers to buy their subscription model.
I have yet to see a single MMO ecosystem that is actually flexible and robust enough to compensate these declines. Because the demand will be high.
I do not like P2W model games, because developers have continuously overlooked the rules of acquisition within such features, yet constantly put them in their games, and the ecosystem is always the first to go and suffer due to this.
The worse the ecosystem is, the more the f2p and low spenders suffer, while whales and p2w players will just pump more money into the game to compensate their losses.
Companies feel rewarded as a result, and the lines are blurred and the issue is overlooked, under the guise of "success" because everyone is just pumping money into a system to compensate gaps and overcome bottleneck hurdles!
What can f2p players do? Grind more? Grind harder? There are only so many hours in a day, there is only so much luck a person can have; there is only so much a player can do, until eventually the demand will be too high and the players will fold!
P2W will just pump their items onto the market at grossly over-inflated rates, and f2p get oppressed by the system, and are forced to either over-work, thus where the argument of 'difficulty' comes in, or they will just leave.
MMORPG gear process is an armsrace, and has always been designed this way, f2p are either not allowed to play ball, or p2w players will just ramp up the spending, until its impossible to keep up. Because they are greedy and they want to be the best.
P2W Players can spend more
F2P Players cannot grind more, because their grind is limited or there is not enough time
Throwing money should never be a solution to game progression because of this! It's poorly regulated, and its too unfair. But the developers want it this way, because it makes them more money;
"The ends justify the means!"
This is an inevitable future, no game can escape it!
If the game's ecosystem is not self-perpetuating, to the degree that f2players can do it organically without leaning on the marketplace, without leaning on spenders to just fill a deliberately engineered void, then the f2player will be exploited by whales and high-spenders who just want to push as much opportunity for value as possible, which will lead to inflation, the ecosystem will collapse and the game will die!
P2W players NEED f2p, because the larger a game's gross population, the higher their spending value will be on return. The more worthwhile it is.
F2Players DO NOT NEED P2W players. The more there are, the higher demand they have to fulfill to either keep up the armsrace, or to just meet demands because trade has been removed, and that has created a fundamental bottleneck
It is essentially a dance of death!
Trade was the easiest solution to this, and it was completely removed, due to detering "cheaters" and ironically enough, this very monetization is cheating! Gold sellers used to be the go-to solution for these people, and instead it has been legitimized so long as developers and publishers can control where that money goes!
They were the ones who outlawed gold selling. They were the ones who warned us that it damages the game's ecosystem! Why has this tone changed?!
Why are they now engineering the same concept and playing it off as if its ok just because THEY get the money?
It is beyond foolish, and the best thing the defenders of this argument can say is: "its not so bad"? That is a sad joke!
Seriously you hit it right at the spot. Couldn't agree more with you
I respect you having the courage to ask the question directly! good job.
Wow,
Absolute CHAD!
Thanks Kanon for being a good variable and ingredient for the west success.
Good on you for being the voice of the west (and reason) during the Q&A event. Kudos.
From their response to you, the only way I see them changing it is if AGS tells them "This will NOT work in the west, we have to tone it down". If AGS doesn't hold firm, it's not going to work here. Thank you @Kanon for asking them that repeatedly, we do appreciate that more than you know even if it falls on deaf ears.
issue is the entire game is built from ground up with monetization model in mind and it never is as easy as turning it off, and it always leaks back in.
Big respect for telling them how it is, Kanon. Also well played to the guy turning around at 3:23 with the "P2W" shirt, haha.
just saw that guy LOL KEKW
Thank you for asking these questions. Hopefully they take your feedback seriously.
Amazing feedback, thanks for doing right for all the concerned people in West.
Thanks for putting your time, money and travel to this and asking the big questions, especially that KR and Western have a little bit of different perspectives of P2W (like the $500 Ahri skin) on behalf of the westerns MMO community brother
Good thing you brought that up to the devs. Thats already a feat. They will consider that. The devs should reward people who actually play the game.
I don’t really typically post anything on UA-cam, but I’m glad that you had the courage to tell them in person which is really cool and brave. If they’re smart as a company they would remove it to grab more people at launch and then add it later if anything lol
Bro that last guy holy paid actor lol.
that was me. the game is not p2w enough to call it p2w. both in korea and in the west. why? well simple WoW is more p2w. done
@@abdelrahmanrad I disagree if you can get any power in game the game is p2w and by power i mean gear/currency/more entrances to content.
Ofc there are layers to p2w and some games more more or less p2w than others but lets call it what it is.
@@abdelrahmanrad lmao not at all. but you have your opinion. it is a different view. But..p2w is p2w. if i can buy object A with real $ and object A makes me XX% stronger,faster,more durable, gain faster, etc it is p2w.. there is no debate, no opinion. it is p2w. " Done".
@abdelrahmanrad Abdul, you need help my friend.
You are not even korean, let alone at this event. Get a grip on reality.
@@abdelrahmanrad Take your meds bro you actually weren't there
Mad respect for telling them the west thinks p2w is trash. Great video.
I was a few weeks ago in a podcast in spanish where we talked about TL but when I said the same as you I was cancelled.
I like the game and I know the improvements it has had over time but the p2w in T2 for me is digging deep.
I'm glad someone had the balls to tell that to the creators of the game
That moment you said garbage game and half the audiences hand went up to hide their reactions…good job man.
While i don't always agree with your takes, which is totally fine, i can have nothing but respect for what you did there. Great way to get the community to be heard. Well done sir!
damn son, you've got balls! Bless you for asking the hard questions and not accepting BS PR answers and wanting more info!
You have big balls sir Kanon,
Pls tell me they wont blacklist u for that kekw
Thanks for trying to improve the west release !
Man, if they are salty about that feedback i don't know what to say, I genuinely want our version to be the best it can be. Someone needed to tell them what we all feel.
@KanonXO, if p2w is still in the game, I have literally had no hope.
Hopefully something changes....
I won't be playing if the P2W remains. Won't even download it.
Same, I will continue playing lineage 2 private servers and dont even try TL @@jay784us2
@@jay784us2 same here
We have guild with +200 member. We're really glad to see that feedback to game developers. Some koreans developers have really don't have any idea about West community. Thank you for showing your heart with us.
Mad respect! Love it when youtubers put their neck on the line for the truth. It sucks the West is getting an older version, wish they would drop us off exactly where KR is.
As someone whos been playing MMO's for years now, especially korean MMo. Thank you for voicing this opinion. It really showed how little Korean's in general view this western mindset.
Thank you for speaking up for us western players!
Thanks for the effort in conveying the question and getting something resembling an answer! Here, a player from Lineage 2 US, where we can't really get our feedback across and are faced with the wall of pseudo-localization. They simply download updates directly from KR without any modifications or improvements for our community.
You have balls to ask such a questions my man and the audience felt it too 😅😅
Much respect from being upfront and direct with those questions , they dodged but at least they a little aware
When he said ` We are not personally managing the entire global service, Us seperating regions is because our publishers (Amazon) have a better understanding of their respective regions that we can go through. The part that you are concerned about Lucent. We believe this much is possible and made the decisions to move forward with it. ` Im %100 sure game will die fast in West. There is no way EU will play a P2W game like this.
Like BDO, it may have a market, but we're talking 35,000 players max if recent history of that and similar other games is a guide. None of the other p2w whale-milking machines for desktop seem to ever garner more than that long-term. And that's only if they are on multiple platforms, and if they eventually listen to some feedback.
They can forget that competition for P2W is very stiff, but for good games with honest monetization? Gamers can't get enough of such unicorn games.
I give this game 1 month in EU and after that, all players are gone
@@MoonRegolith hmmmm...... i pardon to disagree, BDO WAS p2w in the past. Now you can get to 700 gs(almost end game gear) in 2 months if you grind every day. the game is time consuming? yes; the game is boring some times? yes; but since PA took over from Kakao the game litteraly gave out a lot of free stuff, you get a t9 horse with full skills upgraded, you get now a PEN Blackstar weapone (which in terms of WoW you get a raid boss weapone) you get pets on regular with events and login rewards, from bosses if you're lucky ecc.
when kakao was publishing it yes it was p2w but now if you want to get to endgame gear (if you just want to buy the gear) you have to spend 100k$ and you would have to wait a lot cause you can't even sell all of them when you buy the outfits; the max you can sell if your a fresh new player are like 5 outfits( 10 if you make your character lvl 61), that is basically 20 bilion silver and you can get basically 1 item that should be your "upgrade".
now the game is super friendly towards new players, and the only thing you would want to spend money is on valuepack, kamasylvia blessing and old moon book; but thats it you will not need to spend more in the game if you don't care about outfits and other stuff (tho i would suggest to spend 60 bucks to get yourself a 1+1 box of 60 bucks, soo you can get tent)
from what i've seen this game aint that much p2w we'll see when we will play it i don't know for now i just hope is good.
Thank you for being our voice Kanon! I was one of those you were speaking about in the West that also played a ton of Lost Ark but fell off only because of the P2W and would still be playing that game to this day otherwise. I'm out on T&L, not even going to download and try it. This makes me sad AF but I'm not investing my time with games like this. Give us an option for a monthly sub and even cosmetics, otherwise, no thanks. A real money AH was done in Diablo 3 and look how that turned out....
GW2 and fortnite has the best system to earn money. Ncsoft could and can do the same with T&L which is MAKE A COSMETIC SHOP bring out sexy outfits, bring out badass outfits, weapon skins, mount skins or whatever it is in T&L so forth so on. I just think Ncsoft with their small brain only thinks "people want strong character now so lets make them fork out money to have strong powerful character duhhuh." It's a shame I've watch Kanon and Datmodz on twitch and the game looks interesting combat reminds me for Everquest 2 and I loved that game but the P2W is worrying me a lot. I've read where people are saying that amazon or whoever is taking out all the aggressive P2w systems but I will only believe that when I see it.
Also I'd like to clarify the Real auction house for diablo was taken out of D3 cause one player made a SHIT ton of money from it.
lmao that guy at the end though. The system is soo good that NC Soft doesn't even list T&L on their earnings report. Like let's be real, the monetization was built specifically for KR and is failing miserably, it's only going to be 10x worse in the west. Also I would disagree in regard to saying Lost Ark is more P2W as in LOA it only affects PvE, whereas P2W affects the experience MUCH more in a PvP oriented game like T&L is.
Completely disregarding Kanon's feedback because he's a "foreigner" is some serious copium.
@@fenxis Especially when he is talking about West and not Korea. xD
? PvE vs PvP P2W is equal u think is fair to see a guy solo a boss while u cant even do it as 5-10man cuz ur not p2w enough? lol
@kyoden1928 well looking at the success of T&L vs Lost Ark in KR it seems like people agree, can't argue numbers. Also if there are any raids in LOA you can't beat sounds like you might wanna find a new genre of game
@@oaps1 i dislike LOA copy system of maplestory, having to make 6 alts just to fund ur main seems a pretty bad design to me as F2P just to be able to kind of catch to p2w players, i can for sure kill any boss in LOA if i wanted to but to me is a waste of time to do daily stuff for months on multiple toons just to feed 1 character xd
If developers are shooting themselves in a foot, then that's their problem.
거기서 글로벌 서버, 루센트 관련 질문한 게 KanonXO님이었군요. 센터로드님 영상으로 처음 보고 '와 저 분 용감하네, 멋지다' 생각했는데. 좋은 영상 감사합니다.
Daaaamn not gonna lie really strong Questions u asked there!!!
Respect for bringing it up and pushing the question! :D There is a huge community of people who loved Lineage2 hoping for T&L success in middle-eastern europe and yeah, P2W is generally the main reason people will not be interested in the game... and Im sure its not a small playerbase to ignore!
Amazon isn't going to change a thing. They saw how much money Korean MMOs were making and wanted a slice of the pie.
Calling pay to win aggressive monetization is typical corpo bullshit. That's why I'm not playing this game, even I enjoyed the combat and the world.
Thanks so much for being very blunt with the devs and also articulating the differences between the cultures. Great job!
That one dude lol Of course nobody will say anything bad if asked about lucent in Korea
They love that p2w shit
Removing it in NA/EU would be tremendous for longevity of the game but yeah they just want to make money so Amazon won't do anything
Still hyped! Its gonna be fun 1-2 months after release and then adios
The problem is that one whale is the equivalent of like thousands of "normal" players. So all they have to do is keep the whales engaged and the game will be doing great for a long time. Being streamed by all the popular creators on twitch is not the same as actual longevity of the game.
bro was the biggest dickrider i've seen dickriding a company is the dumbest thing someone can do.
@@KingJerbear Archeage did this. Just doesnt work in the end. When server populations die the whales leave as well.
@@KingJerbear You're shortsighted. Keeping 1 whale happy and engaged does not mean the game will be doing great for a long time. That is ESPECIALLY true for the type of mmo that T/L is. It hinges on a LOT of players participating in the wars. If the only people happy are the whales, the hordes of non-whales will leave which the whales will then leave as well afterwards due to not having anyone to crush anymore.
@Sephiroso. NC soft makes games for whales. L2m makes more money then pretty much all the PC mmos combined, yet has hardly any players.
Also much respect on being so direct and forwarding the western voice. Kudos!
god damn Kanon xD you just kept asking huh 😆
man, i have no idea what Throne & Liberty is, but this is one of the best things i've ever seen.
Someone trying to convice the KR devs that the P2W isnt working in West.
GENIOUS
I just can't accept anything a company like NCsoft says any longer. The default has remained consistent for a decade; end game monetized with P2W. No matter what they say, in the end, they will do what makes them money, which is fine, I just won't get sucked in again.
I've unfortunately already written this game off myself, although I'm still keeping a peripheral eye on T&L regardless. Videos like this make me appreciate your effort; I can only hope there will be positive changes.
good for you, keep it up!!
So much respect to you Kanon! You're a real one for real. I really appreciate you bringing this up to the devs directly because it is a real concern in regards to the Global release.
3:27 had me laughing. I love that he turned in a way just for the camera to see as you were talking about P2W.
This game will end up like Lost Ark with such agressive P2w systems.
Ppl wiel explot for few months, play what they can to have initiall experience and fun, and when they hit the wall (pay wall) they will quit.
In a year from the realease date, they will need to merge servers etc ... same shit just in different shape and form as NW and LA.
i usually never comment on youtube videos but damn man great video, ur personality and your videos improved so much kanon, keep up the good work, might become the goat no cap
Another game where kr will be patches ahead of us and all new content will be already solved/chewed when it gets to us :c
Yes. They do not care.
tbf thats normal, localization takes time, korea has what language - korean but when u do it for the west - there is at least 6 language u have to translate (in reality over 16 if u want most of the players). so ppl either underestimate these facts or think they only need it to translate everything to english. i agree that it sucks, but imagine a western studio is gonna make a release for asia region & say "well since we have server in asia we have to delay the patches" - bet nobody would be happy cuz "who cares about them?"
@@Vss077they can also delay korean release lol
@@Tsumi7 that logic doesnt work that way. like it or quit playing them. there is money involved (just saying, thought its obvious, but wont explain further -- u can google it)
Love how he completely ignored the P2W question with a "no plans to change our shitty ways" answer and then went on a 5m blab about service parity.
Girl laughing next to him like "this fool about to get escorted out"
Wow Kanon big respect for standing up you have some balls !
They didn't learn anything with lost ark fiasco at all.
Peons was the biggest factor in lost ark downfall plus many other problems with communication.
Pheons are like Lucent in TL.
It's gonna be doomed in the release.
You know that lost ark is from Smile Gate and TL is NCSOFT right?
@@hirotv2621 tell me you don't know how to read without telling me?
I said they are similar not the same
Honestly I agree. There's also the LA bot issue still lmao since half if not more of the player base are just bots
Appreciate the T&L coverage!
Just been reminded of it coming to the west and as someone who's going back to Uni and maybe won't have too much sparetime, it looks like a fun game to jump into and explore.
I don't really mind the P2W aspect to some f2p games, as long as it's not egregious. But it's easy to say that as a casual player who hops on and off games nowadays. I can understand why it affects those who play everyday more, and in a negative way.
Hoping that it'll be a successful launch and they don't give up on the game!
They have such a huge chance to make it big with the amount of people leaving BDO coz pvp is dead. Unfortunately from the answers they gave i dont think they have a chance with their p2w sht.
Great job bro 👍 Thanks for being our voice , and trying to save what could be a really great game.
As the main Spanish Content Creator of Throne & Liberty I agree with everything said on this video. Keep it up Kanon.
Thanks for speaking up for us. I can't say that I'm really confident with them relying on "AGS"'s feedback considering how Lost Ark is but.... it'll be a fun year of throne and liberty before the player base is as small as lost ark.
3:23 P2W on the shirt 😭
Yeah, I didn't even play Lost Ark and would not play ToL even if I was a Lineage 2 Chronicle 4 addict.
You have some balls to ask these important questions. It is nice to hear someone have a backbone.
Thank you.
Subscription is the only way to be fair, incentivize to market the game more than sitting back and letting a small group of high payers run the game
You sure? Wow is subscription.
@@BlackRiverStudios Both WoW and FF14 are still subscription base and guess what? both are still going strong so what's your point? Also funny thing is its 2024 one game is about to turn 20 years old and the other is about to turn 14 years old and both are still outliving all the newer mmos that have came out and are no longer here only exceptions are Gw2 and BDO which are F2p with Gw2 being pay to play with expansions.
My opinion is any company that wants to make a mmo f2p they need something to make them money and to stay online and multiple games have done it. Gw2 with their gem store and expansion, Fortnite(even tho it isn't a MMO) with their cosmetics/battle pass so forth and so on.
IF Ncsoft wanted to make a lot of money whilst keeping a good size playerbase and to keep that playerbase make a good functional cosmetic shop with cosmetics and other things like mount skins, weapon skins, etc. It's just they believe the concept "if players want to make their character very powerful without doing any work lets make them pay a shit ton of money to do so" and it has never worked or kept any p2w game stable for long.
@@Titan.Fox56 20 years is probably too long for those CEO's just wanting the quarterly bonuses
Subscribed! Asking the real questions right to their faces. Great content.
In my opinion, the system is acceptable.
Equipment - gear must be farmed by another player and put on the auction house before you can buy it. There is no situation like in Lost Ark, for example, where the publisher or developer prints out and sells unlimited materials for upgrading gear.
As long as the publisher or developer does not sell equipment or materials, and there are no boosters for stats, e.g., +20% more crit for PvE, everything will be fine.
I'm gonna wait and see what Amazon games is gonna do cause I've read and heard from people and streamers that the aggressive p2w systems aren't gonna be in T&L for western side but I'm not taking their word for it in till I actually see it. Amazon is a flaky company.
Be happy that you can ask these questions, in Eastern Europe you would have been already removed. In Hungary you can't even ask.Surprised how decent ncsoft was answering to you. Overall a big positive.Thank you that at 10:27 in the text you explained this. Like this it's completely fine system.
I'm glad you didn't get kicked out, but genuinely I felt like you got laughed at politely.
Im glad you said this in person. I am not sure if the developers actually get it how serious your being. First they say Korea and West are being developed as "one" but then he kind of contradicts himself by saying... well... the publisher will be the one that indicates what would be good for the gamers. Really odd, then he went on to say well the West verison is actually behind in verison updates compare to korea. I totally agree with you I do not want any P2W in the game.
They're going to run it similar to how Black Desert was run with Kakao. The version will be a patch or two behind but all changes in KR will trickle down to the Western client as it's localised. The store will also likely have different purchase options and prices than the KR client.
HOLY SHIT HE DOESN'T care!!! .. He even avoided to answer the question altogether the first time expecting you to not double down.. Kudos to you for asking him a second time and repeating yourself... What a lord...
Unfortunate to hear his response though... This is a sure fire way the west release will flop.. it doesn't seem he understands the gravity, he almost seemed clueless?? There is no way he is in such an echochamber after all the similar p2w monetization from similar games
The hero we needed, respect from Hawaii bro🤙
I really don't care about that "pay to win" topic.
What really bothers me is the fact that EVERYONE in this game sounds the same. There are no voice options for our character and it's so off putting. It's 2024. every RPG should have that. Especially since the rest of the character creator is great!
Absolute respect brother, you did more then any content creator has done by directly speaking to them. Keep it up!
I hope NCSoft and AGS reads this: If everyone says this game is P2W before it's released, you wont even get a download from me. This game looks incredible and I am dying to have a good, fair and long term MMO to invest in. I am more likely to spend my money in a game that respects me than one that does not.
Stop crying about P2W games, open your eyes and look around, EVERY game ever made is P2W. The only games that aren't P2W are First person shooters, fighting, or single player games. Anyone crying about P2W games should stay away from MMORPG's/MMO altogether.
Earned a member for bravery of asking the tough questions there mate! Cannot wait for this game and your coverage has been the best!
i really appreciate that man! I'm sorry for the late response!!
I worry about them relying on Amazon to guide the localization, because corpos are very disconnected from what the modern gamer actually wants. Lost Ark is a great example: we just wanted a good MMO that wasn’t P2W - all Amazon did was race swap characters and censor outfits… things literally no one asked for.
I’m not even invested in this game yet but I was happy to watch this! I respect the developers having an open QA like that and actually seeing it here. And props for pushing the hard questions 👍
I won't touch a p2w mmo. Thank you for asking this question
Stop crying about P2W games, open your eyes and look around, EVERY game ever made is P2W. The only games that aren't P2W are First person shooters, fighting, or single player games. Anyone crying about P2W games should stay away from MMORPG's/MMO altogether.
@@MasterChi-x9x p2w = garbage game
@@Rob-147 Ok then stay away from MMORPG/MMO's altogether. Stick with your Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, And COD.
Gigachad you: Your game is trash p2w, and you need to change it for western.
Gigachad them: Yes, and no. Next question.
I find it really funny, that everyone has the opinion that western players hate P2W. Western players are buying gold from gold sellers like crazy. There are probably more GDKPs/busses in every given MMO than regular raids. To the face every player hates P2W but alone at home, when noone is watching, the credit card is burning.
this
Hmmm this would be okay argument if it werent for the fact that in these MMOs you still have to do fucking content to get gear and weapons to make your class/character strong also it is PURE fucking rng if you get the gear. Whilst in games that offer P2W all you have to do is swipe that credit card and BOOM you have the best gear and stats in the game whilst doing nothing. So yea western players hate P2W when there isn't any WORK involved except swiping that card.
@@Titan.Fox56 what work is involved in buying gold/adena/zenny etc from 3rd party dealers? none, yet MMO players have done p2w since the dawn of time - and you always have the RNG factor in KR games despite cash, be it Traits in T&L, enhancing in BDO etc
Man you are a Hero!!!!!! We need more people like you giving feedback in korea and in this case i agree that is not the worst "p2w" could be better but...
i love how they take time for feedback and actually care about the input amazing !!
Thank you for saying that in person. i did lose hope from their response, but super proud of you for doing that.
MAN! That was awesome, so good to see someone clearly say things! They prob not doing anything but you did what you could
First of all big respect for going there and speaking up.
For me TL is probably just another game it will be fun for a bit then it will be gone cuz players will go away, players like me, like my friends from other mmos, like people in comments. We will go play the game have fun and all, but eventually we will stop having fun like in other games cuz of "unhealthy" p2w. I am old fashioned and actually like to get something in game by playing it not swiping card. These comments will probably won't help buut also won't hurt. If there is small % of chance we can try to do something and making Throne last longer than 3 months like other mmos
I'm glad you made those questions. I'll play TL in the South America server. I'll even if there is p2w, but I would strongly prefer if there is not.
Thanks for standing up for us! Great work.
I had my fair share of BDO and LOA, but both times, playing it casually until I got my fix. So i never really paid too much (bought a couple char slots for LOA and some convenience for BDO at the very beginning for like 20€).
I can tolerate p2w up to the point, were I feel fucked over. And in terms of pvp, I'm super sensitive to that.
I will have a look at the game, play it a bit, and if the P2W gets out of hand, I just leave.