People don't go to CBDs because they're convenient for cars--they are almost always less convenient than other places due to a relative lack of space. Instead, people go to CBDs because they're destinations. Are there cool bars and pubs, boutique shops, pedestrianised boulevards, a trendy shopping centre, historical sites, or nice parks? Are these better than other places that are more convenient? More street parking *detracts* from how pleasant places are. Case in point, Melbourne CBD is not dead and has very little street parking and many areas closed to most or all cars entirely (Burke St, Swanson St etc.). Melbourne CBD is not dead because it's a destination, not because of ample parking.
Great video. A good reminder that less than 60 or so car parks have been removed for these bike lanes. So thats 60 people usually, how much do you think the population of Geelong has increased in the last few years? More than 60 i bet. No one has ever solved car congestion by encouraging more people to drive and park. I think cogg need to double down on the exapansion of protected bike lanes to ensure theyre linking up, no point of having a small stretch of protected bike lane where you have to run the gauntlet on door zone paint-frastructre bike lanes. And a good campaign to encourage people to ride insted of drive. But the driving culture in geelong is very ingrained.
How do we know, without a doubt, that the bike lanes did not destroy the cbd? We know because it is one of a whole chain of proposed solutions to the decline of the cbd. The decline of the cbd predates the bike lanes by decades. From the early 90s when there was a structural decline in high street shopping there has been one after the other proposed solutions. So putting cars in the mall was to save the cbd. Planting figs in ryrie street was to save the cbd. Building the busport was to save the cbd. Banning trucks from mercer was to save the cbd. Even bringing Big W to westfield was supposed to save the cbd. Long, long before angle parking and two lanes and unmetered parking were reduced in the cbd exactly the sort of people complaining had left the cbd because they found the big box stores and franchise model to be so much better suited than the old high street style stores on ryrie and moorabool street. Anyone who actually goes to the cbd would tell you far from destroyed it looks better today than it has for years.
Very well spoken. The idea of using something other than an internal combustion engine and a 2 tonne cage to go beyond the end of their own driveway is a totally alien concept to most people, and is usually met with hostility. It's unfortunate though that the people who need to hear this message, probably won't hear it.
@@bikeroutebuddy can you take some councillors along the recommended active travel route for an hour? That'll blow up your channel for sure (in a good way)
The Geelong CBD congestion has been terrible for years, especially during trendy visiting times. Why would anyone want to go there when after you've tried a few times without success. I can't fathom how bike lanes could have made it even worse.
"I don't think anyone would argue that all cars should be banned from the CBD" I mean...I would make that argument, while understanding how infeasible it would be.
The main problem with the northern Gheringhap street part is they put several car parks in and removed a lane when it should just be two lanes and the bike lanes, forcing people to merge into one lane for less than 100m just to split back out for the intersection seems needlessly dangerous. Everything else is fine.
Parking is the single biggest killer of the CBD. There simply isn’t enough parks for the amount of office workers - think TAC, NDIS, Worksafe and for what is available, it’s competitively expensive. Why go the the CBD when the North, South, West and East have their own shopping centres, with ample and free parking? As a rider I think bike lanes are a step in the right direction, but that’s from my perspective as a rider. I choose to ride over drive for the reasons mentioned above.
This was maybe my favourite episode. Loved it. 🎉😂 I got several good laughs not only at the comments made on social media and the sarcasm made in the video. I 100% agree with all that’s was talked about. I asked a friend who works in town planning office (not local) to watch the video. I made comment how in the Malop street footage you see the footpath expanded and the car park spaces gone with road down to one lane. She responded by saying “Looking at the design and what I know about Geelong Planning/council the reason why councils do this setup is all about revenue. Certain car parks will be removed to force drivers to use paid or private paid parking. Statistics show council if this happens drivers will increase the illegal parking behaviour and this in turn creates fines which equals increased revenue.” Back to Malop street (officeworks) They have added a garden and a 3 times the width footpath over the old standard for only a few people using it. Remove car park spaces, expand the footpath and the bike lane gets the blame. Why does a footpath need to be so wide for such little to no usage? Lacking car park spaces has zero to do with people not going to the city. The reason why I and other people I know don’t bother with the city is due to 2 things. 1. Traffic and the amount of red lights just to get into the city. 2. Paying for parking. East Geelong No parking fee. West Geelong No parking fee Leopold No parking fee Waurn Ponds No parking fee. Corio village No parking fee. Werribee Plaza No parking fee. Southland, Highpoint, etc. all no parking fee. Geelong Parking fee. Some of the guys I work with live out Lara. I ask them “So where do you guys shop?” Answer Hmm Waurn Ponds or Werribee since it’s about the same distance. I asked why? Why not the city of Geelong? Answer: Because you don’t need to pay for parking at either and the city you do. Plus more shops you want at either shopping centre. So lacking half a dozen car parks has nothing to do with why the city is dead and why people avoid it. I avoid it and go shopping else where because it’s more convenient. Shopping is stressful for many and the city centre is just a headache getting in. Getting a park which you have to pay for. Then finding what you want and trying to get the hell out of there. It’s a poor experience. Anyway that’s my rant.
Wow, those bike lanes were packed. LMAO. Reminded of Amsterdam with all those kids and oldies on their bikes. Oh, wait. Watched the wrong video. This place is a G Ghost Town...
6:08 As far as I am concerned every single every single learner driver in Australia should be taught the “Dutch Reach” way of opening their car door. It was drummed into me as a learner some 40+ years ago, and I literally could not count the number of times I have paused to allow a rider to pass after seeing them as I go to open my door.
Personally I think the only issue with the updated bike lanes is where they have resulted in merging car lanes with poor advance signage. Not a big drama, but can take people by surprise and they're looking for something to blame it on 🙃
The truth is, people hate walking two foot further, and the car parks aren't really that expensive compared to the street ones. Sadly, your preaching to the choir here. BTW I have a disabled sticker to use, but can manage to use a normal spot; saying that, it's those enormous 4wd trucks that inconvenience me, as I need to open the door to its full extent. Keep up the good work!
I unfortunately had to drive to at kilda road the other day, a whole lane gone and not a bike in sight. I found a park, did my business item, walked to a half empty pub, went home, not going back.
@@bikeroutebuddy as I was transporting sensitive company equipment, well, no . Yes trains are coming to that area but it used to be easy by car. Now it’s not, so I just wont if go. Thats even more eco friendly, just don’t go anywhere . The cbd can get stuffed , it was already wrecked by city and state planners allowing redevelopment vandalism anyway. Now even the roads are gone. I’ll spend my money out here in the suburbs and on Amazon
Ah, yes, parking... The real killer of good commerce. Imagine not looking at places where parking has been removed and how commerce has increesed, and them saying they need parking for commerce... Petrol brained response.
Bike lanes, when properly designed, create better access to shopping districts. Yes, I do believe that cyclists should have to be licensed and bicycles need to be registered before they are allowed on the roads. Unfortunately, there are a lot of cyclists who don't obey the road law because they know that they will receive no penalty for their inconsiderate and/or illegal actions. Certain roads also must be bicycle free zones because it is not safe for cyclists to use them and it causes unnecessary delays for motorists. Melbourne is a terrible city for both cyclists and motorists because of the lack of any design for its road network.
Leaving aside the rego debate, did you know that cycling on a road means you have to obey the road rules? And, yes, I’m sure you have seen lots of people doing it wrong. Want to guess how many times a day I see people break the road rules as a pedestrian?
UA-cam's "ministry of truth" isn't letting me correct you in a reply but it often still lets me post under the vid so allow me to explain why the concept of induced demand is wrong and is in fact the selective framing I just mentioned. Induced demand suggests that there's a population of potential drivers who want to use a road route but will not because the amount of traffic makes it non-viable, normally due to travel times. If you double a roads capacity and it still ends up with traffic jams of roughly the same length, this is not some magical "induced demand" that means adding more capacity does not work, it is in fact showing that you did not add enough capacity to meet the current demand. Arguing that this somehow proves that more capacity doesn't work is like trying to route a river through a drinking straw, then trying to route it through a the cardboard sleeve of toilet roll, that not working either and then concluding that there is some magical principle that means you can never alter the route. Additionally even when you do not add enough capacity to fully meet demand, the increased capacity is still an improvement for the average commuter, largely because the experience in your own private space is always better than the experience on public transport. The only way that the increased capacity would not be an improvement is if the public transport alternative was so much faster that the reduced time offset the worse experience for the commuter, and in general public transport is in fact the slower option in terms of time. So allowing more people to use their own vehicles, even if the overall rough length and time of gridlock ends up being the same, is a general improvement.
This is what I learnt in traffic engineering at uni too. And it is absolute tosh when designing a city. A city is an aggregation of "places" not just movement. And cities designed to increase capacity and convenience for car drivers are terrible cities. Better to design a city for people to walk/wheel. It works better on every level.
Obviously there is an upper limit to how many extra trips induced demand can add to any given road. The trouble is that cars are so mindbogglingly space-inefficient that that limit is far beyond the space actually available before the entire city would be nothing but roads and car parks.
@@Taladar2003 Ignoring that cities already are nothing but roads and car parks, there's always going to be an inefficiency. You either have to choose the one that gives individuals the most mobility and so freedom or the one that limits people's mobility and puts power into the hands of a government that hates those tax chattel (which is all governments). Obviously one of those is better. Additionally people having more mobility actually means that cities DO NOT have to become nothing but roads and car parks. Because that mobility means you don't have to build everything IN the city. But the idea of concentrating everyone into cities is a modern political thing because it forces dependence.
@@jimmydesouza4375 the point of a 15 minute walking radius is that all your needs are meat within that radius so that you don't have to sit in traffic for half an hour just to get anything. And for every one walking instead of driving, it decrees demand for the road capacity, and thus helps alleviate traffic there is nothing in the 15 minute plan the requires you to not have a car, only to not be car depended. Also what are you smoking? cities have excised since antiquity? people naturally live close to work, and the shops are naturally where the people are. the only reason that modern cities are 'nothing but roads and carparks' is because of 'mobility'. because now when people live 5 minutes away form work that is 5 minutes of driving(30 during peak) and do you know the size difference of a carpark when people walk 5 minutes vs drive 5 minuets? Also who do you think makes the choice of 'the one that gives individuals the most mobility... or the one that limits people's mobility and puts power into the hands of a government'? the government already has the power.
your video is dumb and not right. Before any bike lanes were added over 90% of Geelong CBD parking was angled parking not parallel and 2 lane roads. then they added the first round of bike lanes(which was proven no one used). This is when people claimed the blke lanes will be the cause of the CBDs demise, at this time there was barely any empty shops in Geelong. to add this first round of bike lanes is when they halved the amount of parks available when switching from angled to parallel. this also caused the Westfield in Geelong which was free parking for the 1st 2hrs to become the ONLY Westfield in Australia which charges for parking. From then on its been a slow death for Geelong with a corrupt council doubling down on dumb ideas and implementing (at taxpayers expense) all the alterations of moving and adjusting bike lanes to cater for you and about 100 others that will use the system out of 250,000+ population of GGelong
That is drawing a long bow to blame the bike lanes on two streets in the whole CBD for all the problems you have written here. If lack of parking is the issue, why are there so many empty car parks on every street?
People don't go to CBDs because they're convenient for cars--they are almost always less convenient than other places due to a relative lack of space. Instead, people go to CBDs because they're destinations. Are there cool bars and pubs, boutique shops, pedestrianised boulevards, a trendy shopping centre, historical sites, or nice parks? Are these better than other places that are more convenient? More street parking *detracts* from how pleasant places are. Case in point, Melbourne CBD is not dead and has very little street parking and many areas closed to most or all cars entirely (Burke St, Swanson St etc.). Melbourne CBD is not dead because it's a destination, not because of ample parking.
Yes, many town centres, and a lot of other places have *way* too much street parking and it leads to inadequate allocation of space.
I’m pretty sure the pandemic and high inflation had nothing to do with Geelong CBD dying
Great video. A good reminder that less than 60 or so car parks have been removed for these bike lanes. So thats 60 people usually, how much do you think the population of Geelong has increased in the last few years? More than 60 i bet. No one has ever solved car congestion by encouraging more people to drive and park.
I think cogg need to double down on the exapansion of protected bike lanes to ensure theyre linking up, no point of having a small stretch of protected bike lane where you have to run the gauntlet on door zone paint-frastructre bike lanes. And a good campaign to encourage people to ride insted of drive. But the driving culture in geelong is very ingrained.
Fact is that very little (if any) street parking is needed if there is an abundance of off-street parking.
How do we know, without a doubt, that the bike lanes did not destroy the cbd? We know because it is one of a whole chain of proposed solutions to the decline of the cbd. The decline of the cbd predates the bike lanes by decades. From the early 90s when there was a structural decline in high street shopping there has been one after the other proposed solutions. So putting cars in the mall was to save the cbd. Planting figs in ryrie street was to save the cbd. Building the busport was to save the cbd. Banning trucks from mercer was to save the cbd. Even bringing Big W to westfield was supposed to save the cbd.
Long, long before angle parking and two lanes and unmetered parking were reduced in the cbd exactly the sort of people complaining had left the cbd because they found the big box stores and franchise model to be so much better suited than the old high street style stores on ryrie and moorabool street.
Anyone who actually goes to the cbd would tell you far from destroyed it looks better today than it has for years.
Very well spoken.
The idea of using something other than an internal combustion engine and a 2 tonne cage to go beyond the end of their own driveway is a totally alien concept to most people, and is usually met with hostility. It's unfortunate though that the people who need to hear this message, probably won't hear it.
A couple of the councillors and a few state politicians have taken note!
@@bikeroutebuddy can you take some councillors along the recommended active travel route for an hour? That'll blow up your channel for sure (in a good way)
The Geelong CBD congestion has been terrible for years, especially during trendy visiting times. Why would anyone want to go there when after you've tried a few times without success. I can't fathom how bike lanes could have made it even worse.
"I don't think anyone would argue that all cars should be banned from the CBD"
I mean...I would make that argument, while understanding how infeasible it would be.
The main problem with the northern Gheringhap street part is they put several car parks in and removed a lane when it should just be two lanes and the bike lanes, forcing people to merge into one lane for less than 100m just to split back out for the intersection seems needlessly dangerous. Everything else is fine.
Parking is the single biggest killer of the CBD. There simply isn’t enough parks for the amount of office workers - think TAC, NDIS, Worksafe and for what is available, it’s competitively expensive. Why go the the CBD when the North, South, West and East have their own shopping centres, with ample and free parking?
As a rider I think bike lanes are a step in the right direction, but that’s from my perspective as a rider. I choose to ride over drive for the reasons mentioned above.
This was maybe my favourite episode.
Loved it. 🎉😂
I got several good laughs not only at the comments made on social media and the sarcasm made in the video.
I 100% agree with all that’s was talked about.
I asked a friend who works in town planning office (not local) to watch the video.
I made comment how in the Malop street footage you see the footpath expanded and the car park spaces gone with road down to one lane.
She responded by saying “Looking at the design and what I know about Geelong Planning/council the reason why councils do this setup is all about revenue. Certain car parks will be removed to force drivers to use paid or private paid parking. Statistics show council if this happens drivers will increase the illegal parking behaviour and this in turn creates fines which equals increased revenue.”
Back to Malop street (officeworks)
They have added a garden and a 3 times the width footpath over the old standard for only a few people using it.
Remove car park spaces, expand the footpath and the bike lane gets the blame.
Why does a footpath need to be so wide for such little to no usage?
Lacking car park spaces has zero to do with people not going to the city.
The reason why I and other people I know don’t bother with the city is due to 2 things.
1. Traffic and the amount of red lights just to get into the city.
2. Paying for parking.
East Geelong No parking fee.
West Geelong No parking fee
Leopold No parking fee
Waurn Ponds No parking fee.
Corio village No parking fee.
Werribee Plaza No parking fee.
Southland, Highpoint, etc. all no parking fee.
Geelong Parking fee.
Some of the guys I work with live out Lara.
I ask them “So where do you guys shop?”
Answer Hmm Waurn Ponds or Werribee since it’s about the same distance.
I asked why? Why not the city of Geelong?
Answer: Because you don’t need to pay for parking at either and the city you do.
Plus more shops you want at either shopping centre.
So lacking half a dozen car parks has nothing to do with why the city is dead and why people avoid it.
I avoid it and go shopping else where because it’s more convenient.
Shopping is stressful for many and the city centre is just a headache getting in. Getting a park which you have to pay for. Then finding what you want and trying to get the hell out of there. It’s a poor experience.
Anyway that’s my rant.
Great video. Excellent analysis.
It's great to see Geelong based bike content.
Thanks for the complement. Check out our other 25 or so videos on the channel. @bikeroutebuddy
Wow, those bike lanes were packed. LMAO. Reminded of Amsterdam with all those kids and oldies on their bikes. Oh, wait. Watched the wrong video. This place is a G Ghost Town...
6:08 As far as I am concerned every single every single learner driver in Australia should be taught the “Dutch Reach” way of opening their car door. It was drummed into me as a learner some 40+ years ago, and I literally could not count the number of times I have paused to allow a rider to pass after seeing them as I go to open my door.
Great for people with disability issues. Not 🤦
because of the bikes lanes and shit i avoid the cbd as much as possible by car. but the biggest thing in killing the cbd was it became shit.
At least COGG are trying to make some changes to improve it rather than leave it as same old and just expecting that it will get better.
Personally I think the only issue with the updated bike lanes is where they have resulted in merging car lanes with poor advance signage. Not a big drama, but can take people by surprise and they're looking for something to blame it on 🙃
People don’t like change and may feel threatened by something a bit different to what they are used to.
What's a CBD?
Central business district.
The truth is, people hate walking two foot further, and the car parks aren't really that expensive compared to the street ones. Sadly, your preaching to the choir here. BTW I have a disabled sticker to use, but can manage to use a normal spot; saying that, it's those enormous 4wd trucks that inconvenience me, as I need to open the door to its full extent. Keep up the good work!
The kind of people who are always moaning on social media aren't likely to have good opinions anyway.
I unfortunately had to drive to at kilda road the other day, a whole lane gone and not a bike in sight. I found a park, did my business item, walked to a half empty pub, went home, not going back.
There are other options apart from driving to St Kilda Road. Tram, soon a train and bike lanes. Just need to think a bit differently.
@@bikeroutebuddy as I was transporting sensitive company equipment, well, no . Yes trains are coming to that area but it used to be easy by car. Now it’s not, so I just wont if go. Thats even more eco friendly, just don’t go anywhere . The cbd can get stuffed , it was already wrecked by city and state planners allowing redevelopment vandalism anyway. Now even the roads are gone. I’ll spend my money out here in the suburbs and on Amazon
Nice work, I wish every town had a Bike Route Buddy to make such sensible refutation of Kay from Facebook.
Ah, yes, parking... The real killer of good commerce.
Imagine not looking at places where parking has been removed and how commerce has increesed, and them saying they need parking for commerce...
Petrol brained response.
this is hilarious :) I support more bike lanes from ADELAIDE SA
More to come! New video out 30/5 at 2:30 AEST.
Bike lanes, when properly designed, create better access to shopping districts. Yes, I do believe that cyclists should have to be licensed and bicycles need to be registered before they are allowed on the roads. Unfortunately, there are a lot of cyclists who don't obey the road law because they know that they will receive no penalty for their inconsiderate and/or illegal actions. Certain roads also must be bicycle free zones because it is not safe for cyclists to use them and it causes unnecessary delays for motorists. Melbourne is a terrible city for both cyclists and motorists because of the lack of any design for its road network.
Leaving aside the rego debate, did you know that cycling on a road means you have to obey the road rules? And, yes, I’m sure you have seen lots of people doing it wrong. Want to guess how many times a day I see people break the road rules as a pedestrian?
UA-cam's "ministry of truth" isn't letting me correct you in a reply but it often still lets me post under the vid so allow me to explain why the concept of induced demand is wrong and is in fact the selective framing I just mentioned.
Induced demand suggests that there's a population of potential drivers who want to use a road route but will not because the amount of traffic makes it non-viable, normally due to travel times. If you double a roads capacity and it still ends up with traffic jams of roughly the same length, this is not some magical "induced demand" that means adding more capacity does not work, it is in fact showing that you did not add enough capacity to meet the current demand. Arguing that this somehow proves that more capacity doesn't work is like trying to route a river through a drinking straw, then trying to route it through a the cardboard sleeve of toilet roll, that not working either and then concluding that there is some magical principle that means you can never alter the route.
Additionally even when you do not add enough capacity to fully meet demand, the increased capacity is still an improvement for the average commuter, largely because the experience in your own private space is always better than the experience on public transport. The only way that the increased capacity would not be an improvement is if the public transport alternative was so much faster that the reduced time offset the worse experience for the commuter, and in general public transport is in fact the slower option in terms of time. So allowing more people to use their own vehicles, even if the overall rough length and time of gridlock ends up being the same, is a general improvement.
This is what I learnt in traffic engineering at uni too. And it is absolute tosh when designing a city. A city is an aggregation of "places" not just movement. And cities designed to increase capacity and convenience for car drivers are terrible cities. Better to design a city for people to walk/wheel. It works better on every level.
@@Roadusersunited Yes, being locked into a 15 minute walking radius is "better on every level". Eat ze bugs and all that :D.
Obviously there is an upper limit to how many extra trips induced demand can add to any given road. The trouble is that cars are so mindbogglingly space-inefficient that that limit is far beyond the space actually available before the entire city would be nothing but roads and car parks.
@@Taladar2003 Ignoring that cities already are nothing but roads and car parks, there's always going to be an inefficiency. You either have to choose the one that gives individuals the most mobility and so freedom or the one that limits people's mobility and puts power into the hands of a government that hates those tax chattel (which is all governments). Obviously one of those is better.
Additionally people having more mobility actually means that cities DO NOT have to become nothing but roads and car parks. Because that mobility means you don't have to build everything IN the city. But the idea of concentrating everyone into cities is a modern political thing because it forces dependence.
@@jimmydesouza4375 the point of a 15 minute walking radius is that all your needs are meat within that radius so that you don't have to sit in traffic for half an hour just to get anything. And for every one walking instead of driving, it decrees demand for the road capacity, and thus helps alleviate traffic
there is nothing in the 15 minute plan the requires you to not have a car, only to not be car depended.
Also what are you smoking? cities have excised since antiquity? people naturally live close to work, and the shops are naturally where the people are. the only reason that modern cities are 'nothing but roads and carparks' is because of 'mobility'. because now when people live 5 minutes away form work that is 5 minutes of driving(30 during peak) and do you know the size difference of a carpark when people walk 5 minutes vs drive 5 minuets?
Also who do you think makes the choice of 'the one that gives individuals the most mobility... or the one that limits people's mobility and puts power into the hands of a government'? the government already has the power.
your video is dumb and not right. Before any bike lanes were added over 90% of Geelong CBD parking was angled parking not parallel and 2 lane roads. then they added the first round of bike lanes(which was proven no one used). This is when people claimed the blke lanes will be the cause of the CBDs demise, at this time there was barely any empty shops in Geelong. to add this first round of bike lanes is when they halved the amount of parks available when switching from angled to parallel. this also caused the Westfield in Geelong which was free parking for the 1st 2hrs to become the ONLY Westfield in Australia which charges for parking. From then on its been a slow death for Geelong with a corrupt council doubling down on dumb ideas and implementing (at taxpayers expense) all the alterations of moving and adjusting bike lanes to cater for you and about 100 others that will use the system out of 250,000+ population of GGelong
That is drawing a long bow to blame the bike lanes on two streets in the whole CBD for all the problems you have written here. If lack of parking is the issue, why are there so many empty car parks on every street?