Did Keith Richards Steal His Signature Style From Ry Cooder?
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- I investigate!
Links:
Alec Wilkinson, “Ry Cooder’s Elegant Indignation,” The New Yorker, August 2011: www.newyorker....
Alec Wilkinson, “Who Put the Honky Tonk in ‘Honky Tonk Women’?”, Esquire, June 1999: classic.esquir...
Ry Cooder, “Married Man’s a Fool”: • Married Man's a Fool
Rolling Stones, “Downtown Suzie”: • Downtown Suzie - The R...
Mick backstage with Ike and Tina Turner: • Mick Jagger-Brown Suga...
Everly Brothers, “Bye Bye Love”: • Everly Brothers - Bye ...
Everly Brothers, “Wake Up Little Susie”: • Everly Brothers - Wake...
John Lee Hooker w/ Rolling Stones and Eric Clapton, “Boogie Chillen”: • John Lee Hooker, Eric ...
John Lee Hooker, “Boogie Chillen”: • John Lee Hooker Boogie...
Paul Trynka, “Brian Jones: The Making of The Rolling Stones”: www.amazon.com...
Of course he did...without Ry Cooder and Chuck Berry, ...and Jack Daniels..there is no Keith Richards, guitar hero..but Keith hooked up with Jagger, and that was chemistry.
Absolutely...Keith's next level was lovingly borrowed from Ryland Cooder
Cooder is Cooder. Keith Richards is one element of the same species. Let them both express wonderful stuff that they both bring to the overall methodology of inspiration.
It's a great tuning but the timing and attitude Keith brought to it are the genius element for me.
Keith gives an interview where he demonstrates the 5 string Open G and mentions he got that from Ry Co. And goes on to describe how he now wants to explore Open tuning but no sliding. Standard tuning he was with. My favorite thing KR ever said was when jamming the 'antenna ' goes up and let's see what we can get .....well that antenna has sure captured alot . His playing will stand the test of time.
Great video btw , great insight.
Brian Jones recorded No Expectations in open G (released in 1968). That was before they met Ry Cooder. Also as pointed out in the video Brian Jones also recorded Little Red Rooster in open G. Muddy Waters also played in open G and Open E and Open D; Keith met him in 1964. Keith is nice to say that Cooder showed him open G, but that couldn’t be what he meant. Perhaps he meant that some stylistic idea was conveyed.
u r right Brian played Little Red Rooster in Open G. He played No Exp in open E. but ur point is valid. Keith was aware of Open G early in the game. One of the Everly Bros used open G and Keef was a big fan of them :)@@ethanturner1993
Maximum respect to the virtuoso Ry Cooder.
And for Keith 😊
All good points. I read a quote somewhere where Keith said something like "We stole everything we could from him (Cooder)". Keith likely learned to remove the bottom string from Cooder. Also, as for Honky Tonk Women, I believe Cooder came up with the main intro lick. Keith is, primarily, a strummer & pick guy. The intro to HTW sounds best, to my ears, when finger picked, not bending as Keith does live. I'm not aware of any other Keef riffs that have that. As a Cooder fan since the mid 70s, I hear Ry's style of playing, not Keith's, when I hear that lick. But it's just the lick, not the song or structure.
Thanks, Joe!
I think Keith said something like, “I took him for all I could get.” He definitely learned those fills from Ry. Although the way they’re phrased - sparely and economically - is very much unique to Keith.
Really appreciate you checking out the vid.
didn't jimmy miller play drums on this or cowbell?-charlie couldn't get it exact
@@lamper2 Jimmy Miller, their producer (and a drummer) played You Can't Always Get What You Want.
@@scottgalupo Also Keith got some tricks from Brian jones i guess.
@@lamper2 I believe Jimmy played the cowbell part and Charlie played drums.
Very thorough and I agree completely. The two most important points are: Every hero of Cooder's stole freely, so cool it Ry, you're the very precarious position of the thief who just got robbed. And a world without Honky Tonk Women, Gimme Shelter, Tumblin' Dice and all the rest? Good God, even Cooder, who never would have written them, wouldn't like that.
Bonus comment, complaining about musicians being reptiles is silly. Of course many of them are and it's confusing, but not important. It's the Jerry Lee Lewis and (insert your favorite musician/psychopath here) conundrum: What do you do with beauty delivered by terribly flawed people? Compartmentalize.
I'm a musician of many years, now retired. I happen to play both blues guitar and classical keyboards, church organ and harpsichord. I had one musician tell me early on, "Good artists borrow - great artists steal!" I've said that to both rock people and classical musicians. Most interesting thing is that members of both camps, the cognizant ones anyway. think about it nd then say, "You know, you're right!"
@@robertm2000 That's a Picasso quote just fyi
@@pietzscheThank you! Since it didn't originate with me, I figured it had to be from a fairly well-known source.
I just ran across this old video. Excellent analysis! Thanks!!
Just watched interview where Keith Richards openly says he got the 5 string open G tuning from Ry Cooder..
Yes. I talk about this - openly! - in the video.
I think Cooders stuff on Safe as Milks with Beefheart is ridiculously underrated.... wish he had stuck it out with them
Great record!
Cooder walked days before they were set to play Monterey Pop, which made them cancel
@@thomasminarchickjr.7355 He walked because he thought the Capt was a nutjob. He was tripping and fell off the stage at a festival just before Monterey, and that was it for Ry.
There's a video out there where Ry talks about his experience with Beefheart. I'm a big fan of both but I can understand why Ry quit the band before they were due to play at Monterey.
I have always loved "Memo From Turner" from "Performance" with Ry on slide.
Me too!
Far as I’m concerned Ry Cooder one of the best guitarist, his style of playing bluesy music is the best but where do,you think he got the basics of his music from, the same Country Blues that they all got it from and the basics of it all are from Africa for Christ sakes, that’s the nature of the evolution of music, the most advanced and original music is not necessarily the best. Depends what you like, personally I still listen to the country blues and have done for 50 years.
@Lats Niebling listen to Ali Farke Toure or Tinariwen
As a massive Cooder fan, who could care less about the Stones, on the balance of your presentation I think you have presented a formidable case. If there is a rebuttal I would like to see it.
Being a fan of both the Stones and Cooder, this is a really interesting video. But as the Glimmer Twins wrote, "It's Only Rock and Roll." And by that I mean rock and roll is about nothing more than variations and sub-genres layered on to the basic formula. Borrowing, copying, and learning from others is the norm, not the exception. That is not a criticism. On the contrary, those variations are what produce a great composition: Gimme Shelter, Sympathy for the Devil, Stairway to Heaven, Born to Run, Hotel California, Lola, Dark side of the Moon, Hey Joe (Hendrix), Blowin' in the Wind, Baba O"Reilly, probably at least a third of the tunes by the Beatles, and a whole bunch of current stuff that I don't know anything about. Ry Cooder is fantastic (listen to Memo From Turner) but he didn't invent the slide guitar and I am not aware of any chart-busting composition he wrote (that's not a criticism either--I've got most of his albums). If Richards picked up techniques and or riffs well hell, he knew good stuff when he heard it! Whatever. As the Doobies said, just "listen to the music" and enjoy.
I think WAY too much is made of this story w/ Keith & Ry. If you were to analyze ANYONE'S "signature" licks & riffs w/ past guitarists, you'd find someone that matches. Take Chuck Berry, if Chuck could collect royalties from every guitarist who incorporated his licks, riffs & feel into their playing...he would have died a billionaire. Keith alone would owe him tens of millions. But would Chuck have to pay someone else? HELL YES. T-Bone Walker is always sited, with good reason. Some of Walkers little "tricks" make it into Berry songs. But there's ONE guitarist who Berry would real owe...Goree Carter. Listen to 1949's "Rock Awhile"...it's a Chuck Berry style rock & roll song from before Chuck or "official" R&R. It's solo really feels HEAVILY Berry influenced...but it predates him. Goree amped up elements T-Bone Walker..in fact in Texas & surrounding areas Carter was frequently hired when Walker cancelled or had you couldn't the real T-Bone. I have no doubt Berry heard Goree Cater's "Hide Away" at some point, maybe just in passing, but that song has Berry feel before there was a Chuck Berry . Maybe Marvin Berry heard Goree at the "Enchantment Under the Sea Dance" & called his cousin. ;). Seriously though, if you've never heard him it's worth checking out. The man recorded one of the, if not the first, R&R songs, couldn't make a career in music & died in the 70's working for the Mrs.Bairds bakery on West Grey Ave. in Houston.
Anyway, back to my point musical influences. We hear something we like, we steal it & incorporate it. Did Ry Cooder come up w/ the riff for HTW? I doubt it. He may have played an element or two that Keith incorporated, but I think it's a Keith riff. You have to remember the way The Stones worked on songs...they played them to death. Jimmy Miller said something like there's hundreds of miles of tape from the recording of "Tumblin' Dice"...they played it & played it & played it before we got what on EOMS. Even then Mick claims they released the wrong mix...and then there's the original version of the song from the Sticky Fingers sessions "Goodtime Women" which sounds like it was a song intended to be released on that album. Every bootleg I'd heard years before it was officially released songs like a completely mixed & finished tune. "Start Me Up"? A sloppy reggae tune evolves into a truly iconic opening riff...to be forgotten for years! Honestly how many bands would forget they had THAT riff laid down on tape?
Again...back to Ry. My understanding is Keith & Ry didn't exactly get along. I can see those two egos doing that...and I don't mean that as an insult. Keith was largely absent when Ry was recording with the band. Case in point, "Jamming With Edward" has no Keith anywhere. Ry also manages to nail that late 60's Keith Richards darker tone...if you didn't know any better you'd swear it was Richards. So maybe...maybe jealously played a part? Just guessing.
Keith was NO stranger to open tunings, from Brain Jones to meeting his blues idols as they toured mid-60's America to the first Open D Stones tunes. Open G might have just been been a tuning he hadn't stumbled across yet...but he would have.
I think other musicians calling them blood suckers or vampires isn't completely fair. They ALL do that. To The Stones credit...they've always given credit where credit was due. If you read songwriting credits on Stones albums you'll know who to seek out to hear the original artist. Now try that with original pressings of LED ZEPPELIN albums....don't recall seeing a Jagger-Richards songwriting credit on "Dazed & Confused" or "The Lemon Song".
The Ry vs Keith story needs to be taken with a spoonful of salt. HTW aside...did Ry write the riffs for "Brown Sugar" "Can't you Hear Me Knocking", JJF, "Street Fighting Man", "Start Me Up", etc? No. Even if he did show Keith Open G, so what? Ry DIDN'T invent it did he? Five strings? Not the first. Tenor guitars, 3 & 4 string slide guitars made from boxes....five strings wasn't a new idea. The 6th string was redundant & I'm sure for some poor slide guitar players...a luxury after breaking a string.
The Stones have a knack for something few musicians have, including Ry Cooder, taking an idea making it VERY appealing to a large number of people while also keeping it simple enough for the rest of us to try yet have to chase for years due to feel.
Now that my multi-volume essay it over I should mention I AM a fan of Ry Cooder, I'm just trying be be a little more objective.
I was 16 when the first ‘Stones single came out. I loved it. I loved their 1st and 2nd LPs, I very much liked “Out of our heads” and didn’t mind “Aftermath”. Do you see where I’m going with this? I think that my gradual falling out of love with the ‘Stones was directly in sync with the gradual easing out of Brian Jones as their major influential member. I knew none of the politics behind what was going on, all I could hear was a falling away from an almost purist approach to the blues into a studied attempt to echo the commercialism of the much more successful Beatles. I didn’t even know anything about the blues then, I just know what I liked. Now don’t get on my back because I have little regard for Satisfaction, Get off of my cloud, Let’s spend the night together, to me they’re all the same, simple records with no real “heart” or “feel”. That’s only my opinion which I’m as entitled to as you are to yours. .I bought them because I was an avowed ‘Stones fan, but I soon stopped, I discovered the American originals and the emerging American bands who had seen the authentic blues men and sat watching them play live for years whilst over here in the U.K. we only had a sparse smattering of what were originally called “race records” and that was mainly what those early British blues players had to work with. I obviously enjoyed Brian Jones’ interpretations of them, and that’s what they were, interpretations not perfect copies. I believe it was Sonny Boy Williamson who, when being interviewed after a U.K. tour, said “ those British boys, they wanna play the blues so bad, and they do”. OK, what a roundabout way I’ve taken to get to my point. After a couple of years of virtually having sidelined the ‘Stones in my affections I suddenly heard their latest release, Honky Tonk Women. I couldn’t believe it, it was magnificent, a fantastic return to form and also an obvious move forward in style and capabilities. I knew nothing of Ry Cooder, I only discovered him when he released “Bop till you drop” and even then had no knowledge of his brief tenure with the ‘Stones. After buying more of his earlier LPs and realising that he’d become my favourite guitar player I could only come to the conclusion that if ever I’d heard a Ry Cooder styled riff which wasn’t credited to him then it was on HTW. Please believe me, I still had no idea that he’d spent any time with the ‘Stones, this was an entirely personal observation. So, did Ry Cooder write HTW? I don’t know, did his particular style of picking and phrasing find a way onto that record? I absolutely think so. We then come into a whole world of controversy about how much influence the other 3 members of the Rolling Stones had on some Jagger/Richards compositions, particularly Brian Jones, and whether they received a fair shake of the proceeds. If those two members could sideline their own comrades, which I don’t know if they did or not, then an outsider stood no chance. As a last observation regarding Ry Cooder, look up some of the many live concerts and performances available on UA-cam. This guy has no artistic pretensions, he loves to give the spotlight to the many other musicians and singers who play with him, he delights in the ensemble around him and you can see his obvious regard for their individual talents. Listen to some of the interviews he’s given over the years, the man is intelligent, articulate and I’ve never heard him bad mouth anyone, so when he says what a reptilian bunch the ‘Stones were I’m sorry to say that I tend to accept his opinion. The only proviso I’d make is that he probably wasn’t alluding to Charlie, Bill and I guess Brian as he was virtually out of the reckoning at that time. This is only my opinion, I’ve no evidence to support any of my observations, I’ve simply put down my thoughts as they transpired over the years but I still say, Ry Cooders’ influence absolutely oozes out of HTW.
What is a paragraph, Daddy?
The Stones' early hit, IT's All Over Now, which was a cover, is in open G. That's from 1964 I believe. Ry Cooder was only 17 then.
Brian knew of open-G fairly early on, but that song is all standard tuning.
@@scottgalupo it sure sounds like at least one guitar was open G
Keith has stated elsewhere that a guitar player with George Jones in 1965/1966 showed open G to him, which was back when a handful of different acts would play a short set one after the other. This was when the Rolling Stones met Bobby Keys.
That’s interesting. I would love to find that quote!
I'd add Lightnin' Hopkins and Mance Libscomb into the mix too. And those documentaries about each of them are musts.
What you’re not mentioning is Keith’s use of the open G on honky-tonk woman was the removal of the bottom string of the guitar which he attributes to getting from Ry Cooder. It’s on others as well beside honky-tonk woman, of course. But it’s the five string open G that head, a unique sound.
I may be mistaken, but I don’t think he took the low E string off until later - and came up with that idea on his own.
This is the best break down I have heard off the idea of Keith signature move..
I agree this all gets handed down or whatever you want to call that..
Great rundown
Thanks Scott
Your Child of the Moon is uncanny. Just spot on.
Great analysis!
-Reagan (from iorr)
Ry Cooder did not invent the Open G tuning. The chord changes one sees in Stones' Open G songs like Brown Sugar, Start Me Up, All Down The Line, Soul Survivor, Sway (which Keith didn't write or play on, but is an Open G song) and others are standard Open G style chord riffing -- which nobody invented, really. The suspended bit comes naturally. I learned it from Status Quo records. It's natural to play suspended in Open G (the only electric tuning I've used since the summer of 1990). Mick Ralphs in Bad Company used the same suspended thing in Open G on Can't Get Enough (although he tuned his guitar up a few frets to C). It just comes natural if you play in Open G. Ask Francis Rossi.
And I read somewhere that Keith apparently learned a lot of country style licks (and possibly Open G) from Gram Parsons, who he was hanging out with (and even gave a guitar to). Keith may have learned some slide stylings from listening to Ry Cooder, and maybe watching him play got him trying new things, but Keith had already been exposed to blues and slide a-plenty with Brian Jones (who played slide in Open G and Open D). That said, when I hear Keith's slide playing on both Beggar's Banquet and Let It Bleed (and I think Keith's slide playing on the Let It Bleed album is some of the finest on record), I don't hear Ry Cooder in there at all. It's all Keith.
Your last conclusion here says it all: "Ry Cooder is not Keith Richards." Exactly. And nothing against Ry Cooder. He is one of the slide and folk guitar greats, there's no denying that. Peace.
I think its just a starting point for the Stones. Ry didn't create the blues...now its tradition for blues players to accuse each other of stealing licks. Like cuttin heads and headhunters...all part of the tradition.
The point is that the Stones brought Ry in to augment a recording. Instead, they sent him home & did it themselves, w/a tape-full of Ry riffs to learn from.
@@lazur1 I've heard this before, and although I suppose it's possible, I doubt it. I don't hear Ry Cooder in any of Keith's playing, be it lead, chords, or Keith's slide playing. I mean, he toured and lived with, and was in a band with Brian Jones for 6 years, and Brian played slide in Open D and Open G (you can see Brian playing Open G on slide in some early TV performances in 1964-65), and I'm sure Keith took note of it. Keith was doing Open D and slide parts on Beggar's Banquet, which -- those sessions, from what I understand -- Ry Cooder played no part in.
It's possible that Keith took note of some of the stuff Cooder was doing, as there obviously were some sessions in 1969 that Ry participated in. But when I hear Ry Cooder's playing, and Keith's playing, they're two different animals.
There's also the question (mostly unanswered on Rolling Stone internet forums) that if the Stones were rolling and rolling all this tape of Ry playing, where are the tapes? Why haven't they made it to the internet by now? I've seen YT vids of all sorts of outtakes, including some of Beggars Banquet era sessions where you can hear Keith tuning up and/or messing around with the slide, dropping it on the strings, etc. if Ry really was recorded extensively, wouldn't the tapes have been leaked to the internet by now?
That is, unless the "tapes" Ry refers to were the Jamming With Edward sessions, recorded in one afternoon during the Let It Bleed sessions. Listening to Jamming With Edward after a few years of hearing it, I hear a few Open G chord shapes that Keith could have heard an borrowed (like the little bits Ry plays on the end of the Boudoir Stomp that Keith may have adapted and used on Monkey Man).
So I suppose if the 'tapes' Ry was referring to was the Jamming With Edward sessions, Ry might have a point. Except when Keith plays slide, he doesn't use much vibrato (which Ry uses a lot), nor does he do the extended riffs that Ry does. But ya never know...
Still, it's always fascinating to speculate. I always thought Brian played all the slide on Beggar's Banquet. I was wrong. Keith did, and although he was a neophyte at slide at the time, he made it fit. And any listen to early Stones records shows that Keith was a very accomplished lead and rhythm guitar player on his own. Entirely capable of coming up with stuff. I still think some of the best slide work on record is the sublime stuff Keith did on the Let It Bleed LP. And to my ear, Keith's slide playing -- You Got The Silver would be a prime example -- doesn't sound like Ry. It sounds like Keith....
@@chriscampbell9191 There are no recordings of Cooder from his Stones sessions as Richards wiped all Cooders parts off the tapes after learning/stealing them, and then re-recording them himself. Cooder is still on Sister Morphine as it's obviously too difficult a part for Richards to play himself.
And no, I'm not a Richards basher, I'm just disillusioned with him after being a Stones fan since 1978.
@@gvp999999 OK, but the Jamming With Edward sessions were actually Rolling Stones sessions, and obviously not wiped as they made it to record. Jagger, Wyman, Charlie Watts, and Cooder were waiting for Keith to show up to record some songs with them. As Keith didn't show up, they jammed and rolled tape.
Not trying to be obstinate here, but clearly some tapes of Stones sessions with Ry Cooder survived. Understood about your feelings about Keith. Obviously, there are a lot of stories and rumors about who played what slide between '68 and '71... After 1971 Mick Taylor did all the slide work on Stones albums (until he left, of course; I think Keith did do that little slide bit on 'Happy", though). I got into a long discussion with a guy on YT once about who played slide on Jigsaw Puzzle and Salt of the Earth on Beggars Banquet. We both agreed it was either definitely Keith (him), or probably Keith (me). But unfortunately there aren't any definite notes from the studio as to who played those parts.
Jamming With Edwardth is basically Cooder with the Stones sans Richards. Also listen to Memo From Turner on the Performance Soundtrack.
I like Jamming With Edward and play that album fairly often and was thinking that there was a whole bunch of time all the artist shared and taught and introduced new sounds and licks etc
Ry was over there (uk) for what 4-6mo. They all contributed in someway.
Actually, the first inspiration for Keith’s style was Don Everly’s use of the Bo Diddly rhythm using open G years before he met Ry Cooder. While he did use some Ry moves it’s only part of the story.
Absolutely. I mention Don Everly in the video.
As a side note. An old guy in my church grew up with John Lee Hooker and to.d me when he talked he stuttered. Just something interesting in light of that rhythm John Lee played.
Thanks for this vid. Cooder is just one of *the* tone all-time greats... no doubt about it !! And a very nice thoughtful bloke too, as far as I can tell - a proper musician, as opposed to a rock star - if you know what I mean!
“Jammin’ with Edward” shows it all.The Stones have always been eager to accept influences.
Very cool video man, goes to show Keith really did his bit, people are always slagging him off like hes some thief and i feel that's just wrong.
Good call on everything said. As a 40+ year player and a Stones/Keith fan at literally 8 years old, I'm glad I heard you clear this up. I like Ry, what musician of my era doesnt, but he's never been the writer Keith has been. If he was we'd all know it by now. Keith's inventiveness is incredible and proven by the stuff he's played and he's also a straight shooting guy.
TeleCaster66, they both play very, very different types of music, and to add, Ry has done about 20 Movie soundtracks, very different mucisans and Ry the best slide man I have seen {along with Kottke and Knoffler}
great job digging in and spreading the word. I did a Let It Bleed doc, and got slack from so called 'experts' telling me different about the tunings.
Your documentary actually got me curious about Ry Cooders accusations. Great documentary by the way
@@theconspiracyofnoize5984 thanks.....Keith was no dummy and took what ever he can get. There is a Ry podcast out there, I have not finished listening to it .
Everyone steals from someone. I heard that Cooder used to tune his guitar and then write songs just for that tuning. A truly creative guitarist.
Joni made a career of that...
Thank you, Sir! ❤
Well steal or be inspired by? All great music nonetheless. I’m just now discovering Ry Cooder from Linda Ronstadt speaking so highly of him. I like it. Of course the Stones in a class of their own. Good video and interesting. You’re playing is really good!
We all stand on the shouders of giants. Great vid. Thanks
That tuning and treatment has been around for ever in the blues(which you covered). Keef was just tipping his hat to someone he admired greatly.
See also Kieth’s solo on Last Time he does the sus chord thing there as well
thank you for uploading this
This story has been circulating for a while. I have heard it from a friend of Ry's. We can all agree that both guitarists were good early on. Ry was hired by the Stones for their 1968-9 recordings so they did seek out his expertise. The the open G hits were making a big splash after that time and the release of Sticky Fingers. More to learn on this one.
the anwer is yes! Ry said once when he had do to with the stones,he got problems.
I hadn't seen this video of yours Scott. What an awesome job and picking up where that came from John Lee Hooker. Thank you!
Thanks, Ian!
Our pal @hangfirestonespodcast has since pointed out that the great James Burton probably had something to do with this, too.
@@scottgalupo I missed that! That's cool.
Rehearing boogie chillin and seeing you play it made me realize there would be no Midnight Rambler without that particular John Lee Hooker tune. You didn't even make that point but it obviously was a very clear influence. Keith was sponge and like all greats incorporated all sorts of influence into his playing as the years went on.
The British were Hip to the great blues greats before the American blues bands got wind of it. They basically brought blues back to us because of Alexis Korner.
Excellent ..your right...Keith developed that style then took it into open tunings, even though players had done similar things he has his own feel and voicings he deserves credit despite the influences.
Excellent job. Your conclusion « Ry is not Keith » tells all. As KEITH says about song writing, he is an antenna who receives songs floating in the air. All musiciens are like that, the sum of their influences.
Thanks for your videos.
Keith and Mick stole from everyone from their bandmates to “friends”. They stole from Bobby Whitlock without even telling him they were rolling at Nellcotte! He didn’t know until the album came out and he was uncredited as a player or writer. They’ve been competing with the Lennon & McCartney thing forever and wanted to be the “songwriters” of the band. All of these guys were big thieves, most of us just don’t now the source they took it from as their own. Mick Taylor and Bill Wyman both had riffs and songs lifted without credit. Same thing for Brian Jones. Ever wonder why the sound drastically changed after the guy that didn’t write left? It wasn’t just because of his playing.
RL Burnside does open tuning a lot, too. Maybe it's a clue, too. Great video, btw!
Let’s not forget Bo Diddley, all open tunings.
Thank you, it would be more interesting with subtitles...
Everybody knows that the Stones are notorious for ripping off songwriting credits - that, for example, is partly why Mick Taylor left.
Cooder was happy to help other guitarists with tips on slide playing. There's a video on here where George Harrison says he got interested in slide, and Ry gave him some advice about higher action and heavier strings.
I think he was happy to give Richards some advice on taking open tunings to the next level (ie beyond just playing barre cord bottleneck riffs a la Red Rooster). However, when they took one of his licks, worked on it and turned it into a massive hit, giving him no credit at all, he got pissed off. After all, that lick IS the song basically. That plus the vocal.
I think it's just that, in essence - KR got some help from Cooder re his open tuning play, and worked on it and developed his own style. KR admits that.
If that had been all, I doubt Ry would have had any problem. It was cutting him out of an assist on a massive global hit that caused the problem. Apart from creative issues, they had a lot more money than Cooder did, and he probably could have used some royalties.
Nicely done
My question is why didn’t Kieth just learn those tunings from Brian, he plays G tuning on the stones cover of the muddy waters tune Can’t be Satisfied. And I believe it’s E tuning in little red rooster
Great stuff! It’s interesting Keith Richards never played jumping Jack flash live in open E. Also Gimme Shelter is in standard tuning live. I still think Keith Richards might have taken some of Ry Cooder’s riffs and made them his. Kind of the way he took Chuck Berry riffs.
rollingstones911 Thanks, man! I think he definitely adopted a couple of Cooder’s licks as his own, and used them as fills in HTW. But those licks do not a composition make!
@@scottgalupo No - Jagger added vocals (lyrics and vocal melody), but that lick, which I do believe Cooder came up with, IS the song in this instance.
I believe that Keef got a lot of ideas from Ry, tried them out, combined them with other influences and developed his own style.
But they should have given Cooder a co-writing credit on HTW.
Excellent! Thank you!
What we now know as standard tuning was actually a compromise to save guitarists from having to swap guitars in order to change key... all open tunings pre date it..
a significant song was memo from turner. richards had developed the song from piano. the mixture of richards and cooder on that track produced the greatest track that either the stones or cooder ever produced.
Memo from Turner is basically a Jagger/Cooder song for the soundtrack of Performance movie, no Keith here.
We ALL ‘Steal’ to some extent… When we hear others that play in a matter that hits our Souls, that playing is bound to be incorporated into our playing to some extant. I love Ry Cooder style, but do you think he didn’t learn from others… and then imitate?
“Imitation is the highest form of flattery”… Right?
When all is said and done, if the Stones paid Cooder fairly for the sessions, he got what he came for and so did they. They could have given him more credit, but consider the times and the people involved. Every player from the 60s stole truckloads of stuff from each other. Dickie Betts openly said he copped a bunch of stuff from Jerry Garcia and you don't have to listen too hard to hear it. I mean the Stones sessions must have been good for Cooder's career as a session player.
Very good essay in rock n roll guitar playing, Very instructive.
As Keith, my idol, would say “great fuckin video man (gravely laugh followed by cough)”
Great video. Thanks!
Open G is just a tuning; it doesn't necessarily account for style. Brian's way of approaching it was strictly in a blues fashion but RC's is more eclectic
This is exactly correct. BJ was just playing a very simple bottleneck riff. Cooder does far more complex things with open tuning play. BJ is essentially playing barre chords with a bottleneck - open, four, five, octave. It's a big jump from there to, say HTW - Cooder's advice let Richards make that jump.
Not true at all. He got it from Brian Jones, period. Keith is a liar when he says he saw it later on. Brian played a baritone guitar in open tunings on It's all over now and other songs in the early days. Since Keith was in the studio right along with him ( there are pictures out there of this) there is no possible way Keith didn't see it.
@@ronnieron5368 Please see the two comments above and try to understand them. You're right that Keef undoubtedly saw Jones playing very simple stuff in open tunings. You can teach a non-player Little Red Rooster in about 5 minutes.
Cooder's help and advice took Richards' playing to another level. For example how to find different chord shapes in an open tuning, not just barre-ing across the strings with a bottleneck.
@@rodjones117 I don't need to understand anything. Though Keith may have expounded on open tunings later on, he saw it from Brian first. Keith rarely gives Brian credit for anything.
@@ronnieron5368 We can agree on that. Sometimes I think Jagger and Richards saw BJ as a bit of a threat/rival? (Not getting into conspiracy theories...)
KR definitely saw Jones playing with open tunings in a very simple way, and may have tried them out himself. No argument there.
However, Keef acknowledges himself that Cooder helped him develop his open G playing.
Incidently, there is nothing wrong in a blues context in being influenced by other musicians that you come into contact with - Charley Patton influences Son House, who influences Robert Johnson, who influences Muddy Waters, who influences the Stones...
I don't think Cooder minded that, but he was pissed off about getting chiselled out of songwriting dues - that's my analysis anyway.
We're basically agreeing...
Wouldn't surprise me at all. There's a Rory Gallagher live album from the mid 70s in which Rory plays a distinct guitar riff that a few years later became the opening riff to the 'Stones 'Miss You'...
The “Miss You” riff is Mick’s. I’ve never heard the Rory tune. I suppose anything is possible.
Scott, did you get those bookcases from Saah’s in Rockville? The look exactly like ours.
Why would you give this a thumbs down? Haters....Brian Jones was the Rolling Stones that's we he got bumped off.
He got it from Brian Jones, period. Keith is a liar when he says he saw it later on. Brian played a baritone guitar in open tunings on It's all over now and other songs in the early days. Since Keith was in the studio right along with him ( there are pictures out there of this) there is no possible way Keith didn't see it.
I entertain that possibility. It’s more than plausible. But there’s one thing that doesn’t seem clear: Why would Keith prefer to be indebted to Cooder rather than Jones on this score?
@@scottgalupo Jealousy
That doesn’t really compute for me. There was no reason, subsequent to 1968, for him to be jealous of Brian Jones. By then, he had all the power and glory of the relationship (plus the girlfriend!).
@@scottgalupo Then explain why Keith never likes talking about him? Anita? You mean the psycho that he stole from Brian?
My sense is that both Mick and Keith came to hold Brian in very low regard as a human being.
One thing is that without Jagger vocal line we wouldn't have those songs and vice versa.
Kieth Richards couldn’t hold Ry Cooders beer for him.
Kieth Richards is more original.
Keeps probably too busy playing his guitar to hold coders beer
Great video! Don't want to say anything negative about Ryland, but I will mention that Keith forgot to mention Bo Diddly in his list. I've been a major Stones fan since that fateful afternoon back in '64 or whenever, that is, the day I first heard Little Red Rooster. I'm also a rabid Captain Beefheart fan, and I know Ryland played with him, also. Lots of fun, this video here, I even rewound it a couple of times to make sure I understood the points you were making.
Thanks, Richie B. If you had to rewind, that means I was not very efficient at articulating my points. I appreciate the extra effort!
@@scottgalupo Hardly, cuz, in fact, just the opposite. So much of your info is thought provoking, so while I'm sitting there thinking about it, I suddenly realize two minutes have gone by. That's what's going on. At 73 y.o., I'm not as swift as in the early days.
VERY GOOD VIDEO. YOU FORGET ABOUT NOT FADE AWAY OR THINK, EVEN 2000 MAN HAVE AN OPENG TREATMENT BEFORE HE STARTED USING IT. KEITH WAS LOOKING FOR SOMETHING FROM THE BEGINNING.
Thanks, man. You're totally right. "Not Fade Away" - literally the first song off the first record (the American first, anyway) - begins with a kind of -sus move. Ry helped him get to where he was always headed.
What a great time of thievery. Just think about all of the guitar "gods" of the sixties: Jimi, Jimmy, Ry, Clapton, Jesse Ed, Duane, Carlos, Beck, Keith, all musically wife-swapping and all stealing and expanding from JLH, Chuck, Howlin Wolf, Bo, and all the brothers who really got it going in the forties and fifties. Nice presentation.
I am a fan and contemporary of both musical acts. I will say that both Cooder and Richards have drawn from the SAME WELL. As a musician I can recognize the roots of both musicians. I would say that Cooder, being American and CLOSER to the roots than Richards it would seem likely that it came to Ry first. Just sayin'. I will say this, Ry does it better. Richards took it too close to RnR (which was his intention I am sure). However, if you want to see a really good synthesis of 'old and new' stick with Ry. By bringing in the influence of Everly Bros/latter day songs by The Stones you show how far Richards drifted from the roots while Cooder keeps true to those roots while imprinting the music with a dose of his own style and sensibility.
I read old gods almost dead as well.. Very good book
Great video !! Outstanding !!
This all sounds like the Marvin Gaye estate and company trying to say everybody copied him. Well, sorry Marvin's estate, he copied along with Barry Gordy chords and progressions from many others. Music was made to inspire and beyond the legal, should not be "owned" by any one person. Practically all of rock and roll stole from the King, Chuck Berry.
Just to add a bit of comment.. If you watch the early stones with Brian Jones doing Little red rooster….. Jones in open G… BUT…. all he does is slide.. Transition from slide guitar opne tuning to chords and no slide is a bit of an education. To hand someone a slide,,, go to an open tuning and just play the open single fret chords is pretty easy.. I agree with you that Keith did see open tuning.. but it was a bit later I think when they worked with Cooder that he really got his education on the subject of pull offs and hammers.. let alone modified chords to suit the tuning. Personally I believe it was Keith who "ripped" off the low E string…. and openly stated you dont need it.. which is common today when you read or hear discussions about Open G tuning. these two men worked together on a lot of recordings.. Why would anyone not see that Keith would have picked up ideas and stuff from Ry Cooder…. as to stealing riffs.. or chord progressions??? well. basic rock blues is a progression of 1, 4, 5 as a standard chord progression.. the number of songs written in that sequence is millions.. Keiths chord progressions are basic…. he adds a note to them here and there.. and plays them with a personal beat.. but to say he stole or copied ry cooder is not accurate.. to say to great guitar player sat down and jammed a few times.. and both walked away with some new ideas.. is probably closer to the truth. as you said.. Keith has been playing with open tunings long before Cooder….
Finally someone does the research on this. Tipping my hat to you. Great points that you make. Awesome post!!!!!
Indeed Keith Richards stole, all, Eys locks n R complainers about it! Previous to that Ry had been asked to join the Rolling Stones! Keef wasn't having that he was already envious of! Ry Coider
"steal"?... no (and a bad description)... influenced by?.. absolutely, and Keith is very open about it...
JB, thanks for checking in. … Based on the writer Alec Wilkinson’s description of what Mick and Keith supposedly did, I don’t think “steal” is too strong a paraphrase. (And, incidentally, the whole point of the rest of the video is basically to agree with you!)
@@scottgalupo fair enough... great vid..
OK, I'm a big Ry Cooder fan, but simply cannot buy into the notion that Keith "stole" the style from Ry, even though Keith suggests something similar in several interviews. All musicians take from other musicians, going right back to the very beginnings. Ry himself openly acknowledges that he learnt a lot from watching people play at Ash Grove, and other venues. That is how music progression works. This is the most comprehensive analysis of this argument that I have seen. Let us not forget the famous T S Elliot quote; "Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different." The quote obviously applies to all of the arts; without something before, there is nothing after.
Ry Cooder was NOT KNOWN in 1962 When Keith came onthe scene. ALL guitariisrs have a signature style of their own and they ALL BOtROW from all available resources.
The argument, which I try to dispel, is that Keith copped his style from Cooder in or around 1967-68.
nailed it...great analysis...thx
Yes !
( or , earlier , Brian Jones )
And Keith Richards definitely isn't Ry Cooder. I'm sure he could right "hit" songs and riffs but you know he's more into the roots and soul of the music not the cream on top, which is all well and good. Why did they want Ry in there in the first place if Keith could do all himself
I play guitar and of course I am influenced by guitar players in the past. There isn't one guitar player who is not influenced. The main thing is that you give your playing your own feel and sound and maybe you invent or come up with some new ideas that you can add or implement to your playing.
It is as simple as that ; don't make it to complicated .
To make this thing clear : I'm talking about guitar playing , not copy whole songs or bits of it.
Obviously. Him and Chuck Berry.
I have absolutely no doubt that Gram Parsons wrote or co-wrote Wild Horses.
Hahaha this is fantastic....thanks....There is only one Keith...
This counts for everything they "borrowed"
Every guitar player steals from other guitar players. Keith was influenced by all the great blues artists and most directly by rock-n-roller, the great Chuck Berry. He learned G-tuning from Ry and used it in many of his songs.
If you look up ‘Guitar Moves’ on UA-cam, Keith acknowledges Ry Cooder and the whole 5 string story
I feel like I need to have this permanently copied to my clipboard: Did you watch the video?
Musicians play off others. So does Keith Richards. But Keith made all he learned into his own and it is awesome!
Kieth had his sound before Cooder came along. Satisfaction, all of Beggars. Cooder didn’t invent open tuning. Kieth also said he was taught open tuning by Ike Turner.
Beggars is mostly open D or E. I believe the reverse is true: Keith showed Ike open-G!
Scott as far as I know John Lee Hooker never played in open tuning. Pretty much everything he did was was in E or A standard. Also why do you do open tunings then add a capo to change the key to prove your point? I am a massive fan of Ry and find this UA-cam article a massive disservice to him. The Stones when he was rehearsing with them at the time you mention wanted him to join the band, he refused. But he has always maintained they got the riff of Honky Tonk Women from him without any acknowledgement. In those days a lot of English bands were recording tunes/songs by old blues players and not giving the songwriting credits where they were due. Led Zep and the Stones for example ripping off Sonny Boy 2 for Bring it on home and Robert Wilkins for Prodical Son. It pays to learn the history before you try to prove a dodgy theory. Just sayin'
Michael,
“Boogie Chillen” is, to my ears, unmistakably in open G. I added a capo because - again, to my ears - that is exactly how Hooker played it. I have nothing but respect for Ry Cooder; I try to underscore that respect several times in this video.
Don't be silly. John Lee hooker played in both open G and open A.
In the arts there is no 'stealing' only 'influences'.
Speaking very loosely and non technical, Artists are always learning and are inspired by each other. 5 manuals of various painters open in the corner of your eye while he attacks the innocent canvas. Not guilty mi Hearties.
Brian Jones recorded No Expectations in open G. That recording occurred before Ry Cooder worked with the Stones.
Brian’s slide part on No Expectations was in open E.
But he *was* in open G on Little Red Rooster.
Sure he played on stray cat?
Of course he did. The stones stole a lot of music. Bobby Whitlock says they stole a piano part from him. Put it on an album without telling him or paying him.
Yes, Whitlock claims that about “I Just Want to See His Face.”
Ps: as great as Cooder was and is he was never interested in RnR really , he has kind of an almost musicoligists " snooty" attitude to making records . Do you think he would ever WRITE ANYTHING LIKE CAN't you hear me knocking, or Happy etc etc...NO WAY.
Why would when his own material is so superior
Kinda like saying Duane Allman got his style from Jessie Ed Davis... inspiration maybe, style na.
Thanks for this
No. You can't "steal" somebodys style bty showing them a tuning! They were already using open tunings and using them all over the place. Nobody played that style of chording in open G like Keith. I love Cooder and heard him back then , I am 67 . ! I NEVER THOUGHT RICHARDS STYLE WAS LIKE COODERS AT ALL, NOT EVEN CLOSE. You are right Keith was already doing his open tunings style in D and E . Thanks!