My stepson and his wife bought a house built in 1929. As you mentioned on the video, the home was said that it’s electrical was upgraded. Although it had a 200 amp service panel with a 20 circuit capacity and Romex was run in the basement, everything else in the walls and attic was knob and tube wiring. He was quoted $12,000 without updating the panel which needed more circuits. Since I’m an electrical engineer and licensed electrical contractor, we rewired the entire house with an updated panel adhering to the 2020 NEC. Total cost was about $2,000. The electrical inspector said it was some of the best work he’d seen in years. By the way, great video to let homebuyers to be aware of safety and costs in wiring of old homes. 😀👍
Love it, and nice with helping him out. I just bought a house from 1915 in a farm town where it had a 700 square foot 2 story addition added in 1938, both were knob and tube. It seems like this whole house has been a case of a friend helping a friend and in about 2002 there was a 200 amp panel added and they rewired from first floor outlets down to the basement, everything from 1st story lighting upwards was still knob and tube. I got an 80 amp sub panel and plan to wire it in a second floor closet and rewire myself according to modern code. It's funny what all you can find when multiple generations of "handyman" lays hands on your house haha
@@Timman57 That's great Timathy that you've got yourself an old house to fix up. As for installing your sub panel in a clothes closet, you may want to consider another location for it. According to the 2017 NEC at article 240.24D, the heading reads, *Not in Vicinity of Easily Ignitable Material.* Overcurrent devices shall not be located in the vicinity of easily ignitible materials, such as in clothes closets. Good luck with your wiring and wishing you all the best!
Knob and tube systems are installed originally quite well in my experience, when someone modifies it (usually poorly) that seems to be when safety issues arise.
Definitely. When knob and tube is modified improperly that's when it is dangerous. I personally would prefer knob and tube with the addition of a ground conductor as the hot and neutral wires are farther apart than they are in romex. That would mean if the insulation goes bad the hot and neutral stand a lesser chance of touching each other given they are separated a bit.
The saving thing about old knob and tube wiring is the two wires are separated (usually) by some distance. I don't know if there was a standard. The problem with them is the insulation is usually in terrible shape and they had poor insulating materials to begin with. The wires themself loosing their insulation isn't much of a problem because of the wires being spaced apart (well bare wires could sure be a problem to you). The big problem is when the 2 wires are brought in or out of a fixture box. Now the 2 wires may not be separated and you have to work on these old, with crumbling insulation, wires..
@@EverydayHomeRepairs the other problem you see is the wires have become very short over the years of people changing recepticals and switches. Often even adding a pigtail is difficult to get a wire nut or connector on the existing wire.
I had a switch that was probably original to the house, and it didn't smoke like that, but the light flickered AND I could hear it arcing in the switch. Fixed that in a hurry!
This is the best non-electrician electrical channel on UA-cam - I’ve been an electrician for a long time and I always find your channel interesting and accurate and I like how you read your comments and correct yourself where you think you went wrong - kudos to you!
I'm aware in some places (like where I live) those "hybrid" updates are illegal, once one thing gets touched the whole thing has to be redone. this leads to a situation where a professional electrician will quote a crazy high price for even something simple, and leads to people that do their own DIY fixes that either become ticking timebombs or burns the whole place down
It's not as if every DIY'er burns their house down 🤦♂️ It's really no rocket science to understand how to strip a wire and bolt it onto a switch or outlet or whatever. Sure some people mess it up, but i think it's a silly common assumption that electricians are high up wizards and everyone else should keep their hands of it. As long as someone has the intention to do it well, and reads through all the information relevant to it, it's highly probably fine. If someone doesn't care how it's done and just wants to have it done for free then sure you get the ticking timebomb/house burned down.
@@Engineer9736 As an electrical engineer, I bet most electricians can barely do a circuit analysis. Read up on codes and NEC, and most of us can probably do a better job since we care more about our own houses than someone on a clock. Crawling through attic or crawl space would be the hardest part.
I replaced all the wiring in my 70 year old house but what made that easy was I was gutting it to put in insulation since it was never insulated. so I did all new romex, boxes, outlets etc and I did it all myself. I took residential wiring in vocational school and while I never made a career out of it, it saved me a ton of money.
My system is hybrid and I can access most receptacles via the attic. It's so much easier being in a house with no insulation, of course. Also, my panel just got upgraded professionally to 200 amp. Having a main breaker is the best.
Great tutorial, I grew up in a late 1800’s home where we re-romex’d three stories and considered it a no brainer though expensive back in the day. Do it right the first time and you’ll build value and sleep better while living there.
Not sure why everyone always says you have to open up the walls to rewire. I rewired my whole house without ever damaging the original plaster in my 1890 home. It was a hybrid system, I replaced all of it. Even the old romex as I just didn't trust it. Especially since even the romex that had ground wire in it, the ground wasn't used or hooked up. Also went from 2 outlets in a room, to 8 per room. Of course it took a bit longer, and used more wire as I couldn't just go around the room with one run. But I wanted to save the beautiful textured plaster finish we had on our walls. Went from 12 fuses to 30 breakers.
In the process of something similar, house was built in 1911. Originally didn't have anything other than lights till someone went in and added a couple plugs here and there... It's been tough but working on lots of upgrades and changes.
The amount of structure damage will depend on the configuration of the home. One of my customers recently upgraded an 1890's, two story, 3,500 square foot home, with a complex floor plan, that was all original knob & tube system. As in their case, home insurance companies were refusing to write a policy on a home with knob & tube wiring. They did their homework and found an electrical contract who specialized in knob & tube conversions. To my surprise the entire home was fully rewired and the contractor only had to create two 4" diam. holes in the walls during the entire process. With a new 200 Amp panel and all new wiring to code, their annual insurance premium was also reduced by $250.00 per year.
@@chrisgraham2904 Yeah, the older the home, I think the easier it is. Balloon framing makes it so much easier. With no fire stops, you can pull a wire just about anywhere.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the romex needs to be secured to the studs at regular intervals (NEC). As a result it will be very difficult to do a code-compliant installation without opening the walls, and that's why people say you need to open the walls : they assume you are going to do it right... which I really recommend because if there is a fire or anything (even after you sell the home !), you will may be found liable for the consequences
@@uski Your statement is true where the studs are accessible as if a house is being built or remodeled. When the walls are on the studs, Romex can be fished in the walls without being stapled and is code compliant.
7:10 I would say that pull string is more like 80 years old. Nothing like that was being used when I first learned about construction as a small boy in 1965. No knob-and-tube then; all wiring was very much like it is today, complete with the ground wire.
@@davidicousgregorian Actually, a new light fixture with a built in pull cord to turn power on and off is still code in Michigan. The way that was set up with a separate pull cord feet away -- since I have never even come across it IDK. Also, the state doesn't care if the bulb is protected with a cover. Michigan is usually 50 years behind every other state with everything but since these light fixtures are commonly available I suspect other states allow them as well.
@@mharris5047 thats the new code for new builds not remodels or reinstalls code is for new book and new construction . old rebuilds allow old rules from as far back as 2015 not 50 years but maybe 7 depending on jurisdiction rules . and no not behind most southern states are behind due to population . more homes mean more accidents to base new codes by.
pullcords like you describe are allowed in some cities but not new construction built in cords still require bulb to be covered enclosed but allow those type of enclosed to use a chainpull but new code for 2023 says not for new installs
@@mharris5047 E4003.2 Luminaires Near Combustible Material Luminaires shall be installed or equipped with shades or guards so that combustible material will not be subjected to temperatures in excess of 90°C (194°F). (410.11) michigans rules also this E4003.12 Luminaires in Clothes Closets For the purposes of this section, storage space shall be defined as a volume bounded by the sides and back closet walls and planes extending from the closet floor vertically to a height of 6 feet (1829 mm) or the highest clothes-hanging rod and parallel to the walls at a horizontal distance of 24 inches (610 mm) from the sides and back of the closet walls respectively, and continuing vertically to the closet ceiling parallel to the walls at a horizontal distance of 12 inches (305 mm) or the width of the shelf, whichever is greater. For a closet that permits access to both sides of a hanging rod, the storage space shall include the volume below the highest rod extending 12 inches (305 mm) on either side of the rod on a plane horizontal to the floor extending the entire length of the rod (see Figure E4003.12). (410.2) The types of luminaires installed in clothes closets shall be limited to surface-mounted or recessed incandescent or LED luminaires with completely enclosed light sources, surface-mounted or recessed fluorescent luminaires, and surface-mounted fluorescent or LED luminaires identified as suitable for installation within the closet storage area. Incandescent luminaires with open or partially enclosed lamps and pendant luminaires or lamp-holders shall be prohibited. The minimum clearance between luminaires installed in clothes closets and the nearest point of a closet storage area shall be as follows: [410.16(A) and (B)] Surface-mounted incandescent or LED luminaires with a completely enclosed light source shall be installed on the wall above the door or on the ceiling, provided that there is a minimum clearance of 12 inches (305 mm) between the fixture and the nearest point of a storage space. Surface-mounted fluorescent luminaires shall be installed on the wall above the door or on the ceiling, provided that there is a minimum clearance of 6 inches (152 mm). Recessed incandescent luminaires or LED luminaires with a completely enclosed light source shall be installed in the wall or the ceiling provided that there is a minimum clearance of 6 inches (152 mm). Recessed fluorescent luminaires shall be installed in the wall or on the ceiling provided that there is a minimum clearance of 6 inches (152 mm) between the fixture and the nearest point of a storage space. Surface-mounted fluorescent or LED luminaires shall be permitted to be installed within the closet storage space where identified for this use. [410.16(C)]
You nailed it when you said “that has been tampered with”. Knob and tube- even 100 years old- is perfectly serviceable if undamaged and not tampered with. It used insulated wire, but was designed to largely not depend on it by use of the porcelain insulators and tubes. A grounding conductor can be easily added where it makes sense to have one. And the quality of those old devices is stunning compared to new ones. Any that are in good condition are fine. My dream would be to find an old house with an all original, unmolested electrical system. Probably pretty rare now. 100 years of people that can’t keep their hands off of it lol.
I would put a fuse panel back in my 160 year old house if I found one with enough circuits. The breakers in the replacement panel failed, almost burning the place down. Studying the breakers in general led me to learn a breakers life is about 10 years or under (30 year max), and even a functioning one will not trip most of the time as they are really for short circuit protection. And running the breaker at 120% while never tripping is the thing that shortens the breaker life ironically, frys the wiring, and ensures the breaker does nothing at 150%+ output when the day comes. (the plasticizer in my old, but retrofitted romex is separating and failing, but the knob and tube is in great shape still)
Realvanman1 I recently worked in a house with an entirely untouched electrical system. 😎 The electrician saved most of the switches but the original circuits wasn't really salvageable
Insulation was poor, if not it wouldn't require ceramic insulators, and degrades with time, thus it's now impossible to find perfectly insulated wires even if they where when installed. I guess that if you retrofit a GFCI breaker in a knob and tube installation it will trip for some badly insulated cable in some wall with high humidity. Also it's less safe. Usually cable that you install in a wall is either double insulated multicore wire or single insulated single wires in a conduit, to give a double layer of protection. Knob and tube it's not even single insulated, you have the bare conductors in the wall, that can be accidentally touched when doing some maintenance. If you have to add a ground, at that point better to replace the wiring with something modern that will last even more time without issues.
@@caseyrevoir Not nearly, normal breakers last a lifetime, they are purely mechanical, never heard of having to change them. RCD/GFCI have a test button that let you test the functionality, to know if they still trip (and you should do that test at least once in a while), since they are more complex and have electronics in them. The fact that a breaker will not trip at 120%, yes they don't for short amount of time, that is how they work. It would be impossible to do differently without some electronic in them, but normal breakers works by pure magnetic and thermal effects. In my country for fixed wiring you tend to install a size of wire that can carry more current than the breaker that is installed: for example for lighting circuit we have 10A or most recently with LED 6A breakers with 1.5mm2 cable, that can carry 15A without problems, for sockets 16A breaker with 2.5mm2 cable, that can carry 20A no problem. In a well designed installations a breaker should never trip for overload (unless the client does something stupid like plugging in 2 3kW heater on a single circuit). If it does it means that you should have split the load on two different circuits. The most common thing that makes breaker trip is faults, short circuits and ground faults (in that case we are talking of RCBO)
My company is currently upgrading cloth wiring and bare neutral wires in a historic university building that is over 100 yrs old. It is such a pain finding where everything goes and making sure all of the wire is out from the panel to each device. Especially since a lot of it is hidden inside the concrete walls.
Been there done that in Detroit and Ann Arbor in old historic buildings and homes during my career in the electrical trade. I saw a lot of fascinating stuff, but as you say, it can be a real pain. Great memories though, I'm a retired Master now.
Old age isn't the only issue. A lot of houses around here were built with aluminum wiring in the 1970's. Now the house flipper you bought from last year swapped in those flatter squarish light switches (so he could say "updated electrical"). But if those fancy decora replacement switches and outlets he found at the dollar store don't specify aluminum and copper compatible, that nice ABC fire extinguisher in the video won't be enough to save the place.
@@GH-oi2jf That's my point. Buying something 90 years old requires checking the electrical carefully. Buying something only 45 years old still requires checking the electrical carefully. (And buying something new requires checking everything carefully)
@@brandonlink6568 If you checked the melted outlet, it probably did not have the CU•AL compatibility symbol that is REQUIRED before installing it on aluminum wiring. I saw a brand new photocopier melt an outlet when they switched it on. A few years later that building burnt down. Five family businesses lost that day because of incompatible electrical parts.
Al wire is perfectly safe......IF it was spliced correctly. And fused/breakered accordingly. The problem is that alot has not. Theres a whole list on how to splice Cu to aluminum, pigtailing yada yada. Wouldnt touch the stuff if my life depended on it but just saying. Afterall the wiring coming from the utility pole is all aluminum.
I believe that switch - 40s era - is arcing across that dust accretion. Knob and tube is not dangerous in and of itself, even though it is not a grounded system. Classically, they ran single wires with one side of the house being neutral and one side of the house being hot. Connections were made in the wall with a hot or neutral only connected at one place, INSIDE the circuit box. Those separate wires passed through separate holes on opposite sides. Thus any contact was not possible apart from the fixture itself. The problem comes when a new system is grafted onto knob and tube. Often the hot and neutral are taped together and run though the same hole. Now there is an element of heat and friction. The old insulation is dry, friable and subject to breakage due to heat. NOW the conductors are in close proximity to each other and undersized for the new load. Plus, if a rated connector is not used, they suffer wear from friction on the raw edge of the box and will short out on metal. If you have knob and tube, don't graft it to Romex. Run a new lead to the point of use. Use your existing fuse block as a sub panel connected to a modern panel box. Or, you could open all the walls and rewire the whole house. Your choice. I mean, if it was **fundamentally** unsafe, you wouldn't even have a house to worry about. It would have burned down decades ago. Go ahead, guys. Start ripping me. That basement needs a serious upgrade, BTW. **shudder** Too many generations of amateur work.
You're correct. I learned wiring doing old city houses with knob and tube. I learned how to cut a metal box in to lath pretty well too. My old teacher would set a separate metal box for hot and ground when grafting to knob and tube (lighting circuits generally). He would also ground spike the boxes.
Ditto. And you don't play with that old wiring too much either. The insulation kind of disintegrates, especially when it is close to the heat of the lamp.
You talk like an actual tradesman that understands why you're doing something and that every action leads to a certain reaction. Many people calling themselves electricians are merely parts Changers who don't have a clue why they're doing what they're doing. It's just what they've always been told,.. they don't really have an understanding beyond everything is going to be ripped out and they don't know how to tell if something's good. they don't know how to calculate based on the size of the wire & the overcurrent if it's correct. They're taught these generalizations and that's what they do, they're blind to actually any sense of condition the wiring is in. They haven't got a clue what a Western Union splice is and that's what you need to use if you're tapping into knob and tube. loose splices start a lot of fires.
As a home inspector I've got to hand it to you this was a great video that made some very important points. You have the knowledge and the perfect delivery style to share it. Subscribed. Finishing with asserting the importance of a proper inspection for every inexperienced homebuyer is the best advice too many real estate agents fail to give. One of the issues folks have when upgrading the panel is when it is explained to them that for new branch circuit wiring and fixtures to adhere to code they cannot just fish romex through closed cavities and consider it an upgrade. The new wiring needs to be fastened to framing members at the prescribed intervals and that requires poking holes to patch up and match up. The cost and inconvenience of that more often lead to the junction boxes exactly as you described.
Perhaps that may be the case for some local town codes, but the NEC allows it: The National Electrical Code (NEC) allows for unsupported nonmetallic-sheathed cable (NM) and Type MC cable to be fished between access points through concealed spaces in finished buildings when it's impractical to support them. Other conditions that allow for unsupported cable include: The cable is no more than 1.4 meters (4.5 feet) from the last point of support to the connection point The cable and connection point are in an accessible ceiling in a one-, two-, or multifamily dwelling The cable is Type MC interlocked armor and no more than 900 millimeters (3 feet) from the last secure fastening point
I live in Australia. I remember my father showing me the internals of a switch like that in our home way, way back in the early 1970's. I remembered the spring that you show in the video. Wow. Brings back some memories. Thanks mate. Cheers.
That pull string looks cool. Also love the old bakelite and brass cover plates and the old switches that have a satisfying click to them when pressed. I agree that rewiring is a great idea to add grounding and increase safety however in the process I would try to save and reuse as much of the original switches, receptacles, fixtures, and cover plates as possible. Many of these items add so much character to an older property and are often hard to replicate and/or better built than a lot of the cheap crap that is being sold today.
A lot of the older last century homes actually have much heavier gauge high quality copper wiring. I happened to found it out during replacement of some worn out receptacles of the hybrid system. I noticed the standard 15 amp modern wiring are 30% thinner.
@@andyk192 I agree that older switches can fail like the one shown in the video has however many of the newer switches, especially the cheaper ones fail much more often. My rule of thumb is to always stick to spec, commercial, or industrial grade switches and receptacles regardless of whether I am reusing an old switch or receptacle or buying a new one. Cheap residential grade devices go in the scrap pile regardless of age. As for having a switch fail which can happen, if you have properly grounded metal boxes and cover plates there is a minimal risk of fire since the fault current will be safely carried away by the equipment ground and the breaker or fuse protecting the circuit will trip/blow assuming it is in good working condition. Therefore, old switches and receptacles can be used safely as long as your wiring is in good condition, all of your boxes are properly grounded, and you are using good quality and properly sized circuit breakers or fuses to protect each circuit. I would much rather be living in a house with the original fuse boxes, switches, fixtures, and receptacles that has just had the wiring replaced with modern thermoplastic insulated wiring and all of the boxes properly grounded rather than a house with a cheap but new aluminum bus breaker panel, and cheap plastic decora plates and devices all connected to the original cloth and rubber insulated wiring. I bet we can all agree with that. Too bad that seeing the former is very rare but the later seems to be very common.
@@loktom4068 houses built say 80 in more years ago they didn't often make the distinction between number 12 for a 20 and number 14 for a 15 amp overcurrent, they used all number 12 and that wire often was silver clad copper, ( I thought it was aluminum at first) it was copper dipped in molten silver which is a better conductor than copper and both are much better than aluminum that's why with aluminum, if you had a 20 amp overcurrent you would have a number min. 10 gauge wire which is one size larger than number 12 because there's more resistance with aluminum then copper.
Well, I don't know the latest code but for years it was possible to install GFCI outlets where there wasn't a ground available. I believe it was supposed to be marked, "No Ground" or some such. A GFCI operates about as fast as a dead short takes out a CB so it offers equal or better protections. A problem with the GFCI is that they sometimes "fail un-safe."
My house was hybrid when I moved in... Get this, every receptacle, light switch, and ceiling fan were all on one 20a breaker (well, the microwave and 1 ceiling fan were not)... Lucky for me I had a friend that was an electrician, it took us about two years of very casual work schedules to get all the cloth wiring out, then another 2 years to upgrade the 60a service wire to 200a service wire (the 60a wire was feeding a 200a main, yikes!)... but its done now, and I learned enough that I could do it again on my own. Good times for sure, I learned a lot and I sleep way better at night.
as a retired electrician & later, a electrical safety inspector i've found that the biggest problem with knob & tube wiring is overfusing & untrained people adding on to the circuits. never do either of these. if more receptacles are needed, start at the breaker panel & wire from there. loadwise, kitchens are the worst culprit. cap k&t receptacles & install all new. other appliances like washers, air conditioners, pumps, furnaces, etc should be run off new wiring, NEVER knob & tube ! remember codes now require most residential circuits be afci & gfci protected. if you are going to "gut" your house, demo all the knob & tube. if not, restrict it's use to existing lighting only. my house was built in 1906-i feel for you !
1925 house here. i removed the K&t from it when i replaced the panels. rewired everything from the panel to the outlets/lights. all new romex and removed the old wiring as i replaced them. a contractor asked me if he could keep the old ceramic support. i gave it to him. dunno what he did with it tho but i know im all safe. also found out tons of illegal junction box and funky wiring when i did it. it was scary... outlet inside a plaster wall no box used as a junction, junction box full of plaster with live wires, you never know. safer to start from the panel to the end than retrofitting old stuff
@@patricklegault6383 as hacked up as your old wiring was, it's wise you replaced all of it. with k&t in 1925 one could splice & tap wires without a box. most ceiling fixtures were installed without a box. there were no wirenuts back then, so electricians soldored their connections, then wrapped them with friction tape. we've come a long way since then.
In reality, knob & tube wiring systems were designed and installed to satisfy the lighting requirements of a home only. They handled the family entertainment system ( one radio), a kettle in the kitchen and a clothes iron in the laundry room. Today, LED and other energy efficient lighting systems are the smallest consumers of electricity in your home. You can't save much electricity today by diligently turning off the lights.
@@chrisgraham2904 A good electric kettle for US or Canada use draws between 1100-1500 watts. If the knob and tube is 16 gauge you are at or above its limit just with one thing. Even with 14 gauge wire you are pushing if if something else is also running on that circuit. Combine that with crumbly cloth insulation and you have a recipe for a fire (if the wire were rubber coated then covered with cloth like some knob and tube wiring used you might be OK for the 10 minutes the kettle is running).
I have a 1933 home that HAD same issues. I removed all old wiring and replaced with new. I found many issues doing so and VERY glad I replaced all wiring from the basement to the attic on a 2 story house. It had an updated breaker box only. I had the outside service replaced as well.
I had a home from 1914 that was almost exclusively knob-and-tube. I was able to update all of the first floor wiring myself, with proper grounds and everything. I'm super proud of this feat.
Nice !!! It probably will take a bit of damage to do the top floor, but the peace of mind is well worth it. Find a path to the attic and bring up a few lines. It takes more wire to go up-over-down to each plug or switch but u will probably minimize the damage to walls. I did it in my house, sometimes was lucky enough to simply use the old wire as a pull string. Eventually got house entirely up to present day code. Nice peace of mind for sure
In the early 1950s my family lived in a house built around 1900-1910. We had no problems with its knob and tube wiring while there. In 1974 I bought my first house, which was about three years old at the time. It was wired with aluminum wire, and plagued with intermittent receptacles and one case of melted wires at the point that they connected to the dish washer. Luckily, the connection was made in a steel box on the washer, and no fire developed. I was glad to see the last of that house.
Dishwashers produce heat in the drying cycle, anything heat producing tends to draw a lot of amperage. I believe the code today is a dedicated circuit for the dishwasher as well as the microwave-something that was not common in houses in 1974.
My home was built in 1996 and a lot of the switches were failing when I purchased last year. I just went ahead and replaced all the switches in the home and later I went through and replaced all the receptacles as well. Got rid of the bottom of the barrel super cheap stuff and I replaced it all with spec grade decent stuff.
@@Krankie_V agian bare minimum standards you ever heard of a turd in a box with a guarantee what you have there is a ul listing to not catch fire right away and if it dose its supposed to minimize the damage lol but no liability if it dosent
Our first home was a 10-year old tract home built in the early '90s. Plugs were always loose in the outlet sockets, so I wound up replacing all of them. It was a good starter home, but it was built with the least expensive materials the builder could get.
I grew up in a house that looked just like the one you were in. It had the old glass fuses too. When the 15 amp glass fuses would blow because that circuit was overloaded, we just put in 20 amp glass fuses. LOL The house had no grounds either on the outlets. We would just get the 3 prong to 2 prong adapters. We even had a cat running under the house and its tail touched one of the wires in the tube and knob system where the insulation on the wire had come off and was electrocuted. We didn't have any class ABC fire extinguishers either. We had a hand blown glass round container the size of a grape fruit filled with carbon tetrachloride. You learn quickly not to touch the metal boxes or the screws on the light switches. One night during a party with all the lights on, I went out to the old fuse box and could feel the heat from that box over 3 feet away. All of that was nothing compared to the old furnace. When the pilot light would blow out there was nothing to shut of the pilot gas line and everything would fill with gas. The fix was to just leave the door to the furnace a jar to let in extra air so the pilot would not blow out. We were so lucky that only a cat died and the house didn't explode. LOL Those were the days my friend We thought they'd never end We'd sing and dance forever and a day We'd live the life we choose We'd fight and never lose For we were young and sure to have our way
@@glasslinger In the old homes, the tube and knob wiring was covered with a cloth type of insulation. When it got very old, if you touched it the insulation would just flake off and expose the bare wire. We had a litter of kittens born under our house that my sister was feeding. I will admit that my sister told me about the kitten getting electrocuted and that I did not see it directly. OK, to be perfectly honest here, it was closer to 2 feet away that I could feel the heat coming from the fuse box. I was not making this up to make a good story. It all did happen. The pilot light was not being blown out, I think it was being starved of oxygen. The gas system was installed in the old oil burner that the house originally had. That was why the cure for the pilot going out was to just leave the oil furnace door ajar to let in more oxygen. When my mother died in 2000, I was the executor of the estate and the new buyers of the house did bulldoze the house so no one else will be hurt from all of that nonsense. I was just a teenager at the time and didn't really know any better than to do these things. I won't even get into the asbestos covered flue ducts through out this large 3,300 sqft home.
Funny that you put up that song.... There was an "All In The Family" episode where Archie had "fixed" a blown (glass) fuse by putting a penny under it, then had an electrical fire and thought he would collect from insurance, forgetting about the penny......then the inspector found it.
My Mom and Dad bought an older home back in the early 70's. It was originally built in the late teens or early 20's, as it had the kind of wiring you showed in the basement, but this home only had an attic. I warned them about the wiring in the house, but they were strapped for cash and couldn't do anything about it. By the late 70's they had saved enough that the entire house was rewired with a new panel, and had new romex run to every outlet, light, and switch. That cost them about $5000 back in the late 70's. It was passed by the city inspectors!
I owned a 1925 Craftsman Bungalow with a hybrid system. I still have the original knife switch where 3 110/120 lines came into the house, but had been put into a newer 100 amp panel. The house was rife with original 1920's Knob & Tube, with later receptacles connected to post-WW2 Romex. I made friends with the city's Electrical Inspector, and over the next 10 years, put in a new Mast, Elect Meter a 200AMP panel in the 1700 ft2 home. I replaced every light fixture, every switch, and every outlet with up-to-code 12/2 or 12/3 Romex. The living room that originally had 4 outlets (one on the midpoint of each wall) now had 17 outlets so that there was an outlet mid, left, and right of any furniture placement, as it should be. In the kitchen, I put in separate circuits for the MW, DW, Disposal and additional kitchen circuits so that every other outlet was on a different circuit. The next owners had NO idea how much improved the electrical system was in that almost 100 year old home.
Here in North Dakota if you are adding any electrical devices to a circuit that is using knob and tube all of it must be replaced back to the source for that circuit
We renovated my great grandfather’s house from 1928 and made it modern. The wiring was done back the 50s by my great great uncle and he did a good job but since we gutted it we went ahead and rewired the whole house with new plugs, wire and box.
I had an 1890 house with original wiring. I payed a guy $1500 to install the breaker box and rewired the house myself for under $200. It's not the easiest job if you have a two story house but you save a lot of money.
I have seen the "hybrid " systems a lot when I used to go into homes for a previous job. I am not an electrician but I have worked on remodeling homes before and worked closely with the electrician during remodeling. Electrical isn't something to mess around with. I have seen electrical fires and the results of them. Electrical and plumbing is something that bothers me with older homes when looking to buy. Like I currently am.
I own a number of old rental homes that all seem to have a lot of old knob and tube. I’ve found that much of the issues with the remaining wiring seem to occur in the boxes from 100 years of pulling switches and receptacles in and out of the boxes which damages the insulation. I’ve also encountered a great deal of signs of resistance heating at junctions where they twisted and sealed wires without wire nuts. In the winter, people use electric heaters and the wire warms and cools as the heater cycles. This expansion translates to the twisted junction and the wire heats where the contract between the wires is loose. Wire nuts properly applied seems to fix the issue. You can also use arc fault breakers if the box is updated. I’ve found that with the old 60 amp panels, people often use 20 amp fuses on 14g wire and then with only 4 runs to the box, the wire actually gets hot to touch when so many circuits are utilized at the same time. The old wire always seems to look good in the walls though as it’s never moved and mice don’t seem to eat the old stuff. They’ll eat the Romex and leave the old hemp wound wire alone. At least with a new panel and junction boxes, the 4 runs can be divided into many more putting far less load on individual circuits.
Arc Fault Interrupter breaker will find ground leakage caused by overstuffed box (GFCI in small box by previous owner). There the hot wire with crumbling insulation was intermittently touching the grounded box. Grounds were provided by a separate wire (1953 house). AFI highly recommended for all old branch circuits, not only for bedroom sockets as required by code.
My house is from 1923 and it's a combination of Romex(in the basement), the asbestos wrapped vinyl wiring(40's/50's stuff) and a little bit of Knob & Tube wiring. The first floor was Knob & Tube at one time but was updated sometime in the 40's or early 50's when the attic was finished but at the same time some Knob & Tube was left in place. Surprisingly the Knob & Tube wiring is still in really good condition.
The common fibrous romex for home use did not use asbestos, it was quality bleached, often mercerized cotton with a high--dielectric varnish. Asbestos wiring was reserved for larger currents/wires in commercial and retail (think theatres). Asbestos doesn't "dry rot" but very old cotton does, especially at bend points where it starts to fail along with the brittle varnish.
@@EverydayHomeRepairs I think it's quite common in most areas in the US, even I have some in service K&T and romex and one armored wired cable for the stove, and when I was looking at the house, it still had a FPE circuit breaker that I had replaced on the seller's dime. Since I had K&T, several outlets in the kitchen, living room and original bedroom had to be swapped for GFCI, even though they had newer grounded outlets, but as you know, K&T can't be safely grounded, if grounded at all, hence why it's often required to be removed or taken out of service when getting insurance.
@@ytsux9259 I can see that, but it depends on the house, and its condition. My house does not creep me out at all, even though it was initially from 1908, with an addition in 1985.
when you were talking about the old wire entering the handy box, yes they always must have box connectors, but one other thing is they must an outer jacket as an insulator extended entirely thru the connector. There was a piece of it, it's call "Loom" visible at the top entry KnockOut to the box in your photo, but it was installed correctly either.
Another issue with old wiring is that it was fairly common for the switches to be on the neutral side. This is a huge safety risk as it meant doing something like changing a broken light bulb could result in a shock, even when the lights are turned off. There's still line voltage going to the lights, they just don't have a path to ground.
@@ccox7198 Very sure. My parent's own an ~1870's home, wired in the 20's. Many of the switches were on the neutral (Others had already been rewired). I read into it on some electricians forums and a lot of them also reported seeing the same in older homes.
I have a hybrid system I am working on now...no K & T, but a lot of two conductor with two prong outlets. I ran 14 gauge green insulated single conductor and fished it to the box in question, bonded to ground and installed three prong outlets. They all test properly.
My sister had a house with knob-and-tube, and a breaker panel (from the 1950s or 1960s, maybe?) that replaced the old fuse box. It looked a lot like what is seen in this video, but the switches were push-button and they kept the smoke inside. But that breaker panel was pretty old, too - it had fabric-sheathed cable that ran to junction boxes in the basement where it spliced to the knob-and-tube. I couldn't find the amp markings on the breakers (but I didn't try that hard - I wasn't doing any wiring at the panel). What I could see of the knob-and-tube in the basement and attic appeared to be in good shape (and the insulators were ceramic/glass!) I think the panel was Zinsco or Challenger - whatever brand it was, I later learned was a type of panel to avoid/replace.
Other than a breaker panel, this is so similar to my grandmother's house. Its a hybrid of Romex, asbestos insulated, aluminum, and knob and tube. You can see the age of an addition or repair by the wiring. There is also a couple of mercury switches and an old rotary switch. The entire house is on 2 30A fuses. And of course, its ungrounded. Its time for a total update.
If it is insulated with asbestos (i. e. almost guaranteed lung cancer if you mess with it) you have a job ahead of you that cannot be done yourself. All of the asbestos insulation where you are going to re-wire must be removed by a special contractor (of which your area MIGHT have one or two, even Grand Rapids, MI only seems to have three) and it will cost thousands of dollars. If you have the whole house remediated the cost is in the tens of thousands of dollars (and an N95 mask won't protect you). I feel sorry for your grandmother. Appropriate officials here in Michigan told me that if you don't mess with the asbestos it likely won't hurt you but once you disturb it you run the HIGH risk of lung cancer.
Wire wears out over time and becomes DANGERIOUS..Switch points become pitted and dirty,this results in arcing.burns like a welder arc..heats the wires and causes fires..You are correct.updating breakers does not fix the problem, replace it all.Also,old systems waste power.Takes more power to get through old worn out wires than new wires.conducitivity goes down with age...youre right again..
@Oliver Taylor: "Also,old systems waste power.Takes more power to get through old worn out wires than new wires.conducitivity goes down with age". The conductivity of a specific copper wire does not change with age (at least for the timescales we're talking about here). Many older homes are wired with smaller conductors than modern life demands, and those should be replaced. To the extent that "old systems waste power", the waste happens by pushing current through conductors that are too small. The system wasted just as much power when it was installed as it does today. It is the size of the conductors that matter, not their age.
When factoring in inflation, a full rewire would be cheaper today than in the late 70s to mid 80s. Copper was undergoing massive speculation as many mines are in countries with great political turmoil. That was the period when Aluminum wiring was in vogue.
I work for a company that remediates knob and tube. We perform complete removal of it. I've seen everything.. you explained it really well. Hybrid spliced system.
That pullswitch looked like a lot more than 50 or 60 years old. I bought a nice old house. The fuse box was wood, set in the bathroom wall over the tub with some asbestos paper lining and 3 Edison base fuses in open holders. Had to rewire before I'd sleep there.
My house had 3 FPE panels from 1959 when I bought it. The main panel had a 20A circuit for the backyard patio electricity. I was hanging up some PRC string lights, and when I plugged them in, they lit up dimly for a couple of seconds and shut back off. I quickly realized the 1959 FPE panel (that had been outside, in the elements for 53 years) was tripping it's 20A breaker as designed. I found one of the light sockets had it's center conductor folded over into the threads - a direct short. I've since read that some companies made FPE compatible breakers that actually worked in later years, but this one sure looked like it came from the 50s.
As a licensed electrician, I have seen so many instances of a well meaning homeowner attempting to "improve" the electrical system, and compromising the integrity to the point where I would not sleep in the house. They take a basically safe but inadequate electric system and "improve it" to the point where it is now dangerous. They don't do it on purpose, but through lack of knowledge and or experience they cannot comply with all of the particulars of the NEC. There may be a dozen requirements of the NEC for the installation of just one outlet. I highly recommend that before someone attempts to do their own wiring to buy a GOOD book and follow the instructions completely. Then have someone competent check out their work, and I don't mean uncle Fred. who drove a milk truck.
I can't recommend a good do-it-yourself book because I have been taking CE classes for 40 years, and we use the NEC. This book will not be understood by laymen, because it uses terms which are particular to the trade.
@Toren1156 I would probably not feel comfortable spending time in your residence, if you try to do your own electrical work based on what you learned on the internet. Do you know what size wire to use in all circumstances. do you know how much wire must be left in junction boxes? How about how many wires of each size can go into each different box? I have spent hundreds of hours in classroom settings and I still have to look up things in the code book as does every other responsible electrician. I'm sure I could look at a house wired by a welder and find at least a hundred different violations!
@Toren1156 I disagree. While the basic principals can be learned pretty easily, doing things right is a different story. I am not an electrician, but I know enough to know what I don't know. I've also pulled my share of wire, and wired more than enough receptacles and lights over they years on side jobs with my best friend who is a licensed master electrician. I can also tell you, knowing how to do something, and actually doing it are two completely different things. Try twisting 6 12ga wires together a few times then come back and tell me again how easy it is. Especially when you are laying across joists in an attic in July.
Major electrical work like knob & tube conversion will require permits and inspections in most jurisdictions if a DIY'er thinks they are up for the job. There will always be some that will bypass the permit process since they can buy all the components at their big box store. I guess you could buy some books and watch some videos to learn to do your own surgery on yourself or a loved one, but I'll trust my surgeries to a qualified doctor.
I hope when you find homes like this you do a full wiring update. As you said it is expensive and can take some time, but if you do it right, it can also be a great time to update the house, like maybe open it up, and give it a fresh new look.
@@kenbrown2808 When was the last time you got estimates to gut and install a new electric panel, rewire, replace all switches, outlets, and lights insulate, drywall, float, and paint.
I completely agree and if we renovate this home we would do a complete rewire. I think a lot of the challenge is with these homes even renovated they are $100K - $125K or so for the sale price so the vast majority of flippers would not do a full rewire. Not advocating for that approach but that is the truth of what I see in our area.
My sister and Bro in-law bought a house built in the 60s. I had gone and spent a week of my vacation with them. I usually travel with my tools. I was in the unfinished part of the basement looking at everything. Porcelain lamp sockets with pull strings. The previous owner had installed socket adapters for outlets. One of them flickered and started smoking when I pulled the string. I had found 2 fluorescent fixtures mounted with pig tails on them plugged into the socket adapters. I put a proper switch on the wall with romex to the fluorescent fixtures properly mounted. I took down the porcelain lamp holders and was able to put proper outlets in their place. I didn’t want them to make the mistake of turning on that light and possibly burning the house down.
Wow, I love that old pull string switch. I have had the chance to upgrade a few old houses wiring. I like keeping the old components even kept some of the pristine old cloth wiring as a keepsake.
@@WeatherNut27 I ran across some unused porcelain knobs for knob and tube wiring in the early 90's cleaning out a garage for my father while he was moving from one house to another. I plucked them out and saved them but I moved to another house about the same time and I don't know what happened to them during the move.
We are renovating an 1860s cape in Kittery, Maine. Lots of knob and tube, but the best find was an entire room wired with gauge SPEAKER wire. Copper stranded wire in a see-through pink "insulation". Got to love old shipyard (Portsmouth Naval Shipyard) workers fixing up their homes!
Very good video particularly for first time homeowners. Personally I have also seen this style wiring in home built in the 1910s , 1920s and 1930s, when many homes across America were wired the first time and family's could not contain the excitement of turning on the first electric light bulb rather than lighting the gas or oil lantern. While knob and tube systems were cutting edge technology at the time, age, deterioration and unsafe modifications are almost guaranteed to be lurking behind walls, in basements, crawl spaces and attics. Combine that with your typical 60 amp service, some only had 30 amperes at 120 volts with just a couple circuits and the recipe for overloading and fires are ever present.
My grandmother didn't have electricity until the early 1940's. She did have gas lanterns but no electric service. One of my uncles bought a house in the 1980's, it still had the gas lanterns and piping in working condition in an upstairs apartment. He tore that out right away due to concerns that it might start to leak. The whole building had electric service run in it and appeared to have had it for at least 35-40 years at the time.
When I was about 13 a neighbor I liked asked me to see if I could fix the floor outlet in her living room. I grabbed my volt meter and a flashlight and climbed into the crawl space. There I found that the wires had be up on knobs, but the bakelite knobs had failed (probably rodents) and that the wire insulation had been rubber, paper and then cloth, but only a few bits of the rubber remained (probably insects & rodents). The hot wire to that outlet was broken off (metal fatigue) and ended in a rat that was beginning to swell up... I got out of there when I determined that hot wires were just dangling all over. Then I found out the house did not have breakers and the wires in the fuse box were not much better than the ones in the crawl space. I told her to call an electrician and an exterminator and not to sleep in the house until the new electric system is inspected. The electrician told her I saved her life. There was not one piece of that system that was up to code. Not the meter, not the weather head, not the wires to the pole and not even the transformer on the pole was acceptable any more. Her homeowners insurance took a $27k hit, but every wire, switch and outlet was replaced, a modern meter was installed along with a modern breaker box. Everything was fixed except that floor outlet. It was too small for a grounding outlet and moving it was out of the question.
Code upgrade coverage is wise to get on older homes when it's offered. It's very likely their neighbor had been paying extra for it for many years before needing to use it.
After a home buying pre-inspection and paying 2 electricians to overhaul the wiring (over a decade apart) I came across a store bought knob and tube to BX wiring adapter that was hot in a dark corner of my 1900 built house. It was for old type outlets on the first floor! Anybody doing as good inspection would have seen those old two prong outlets and either pulled the cover plate or gone down to the basement and looked for the wiring.
👍🏻 I wouldn't trust that old wiring at all. I'd also sweep a broom across areas I plan to work to get rid of some of those cobwebs. Good luck with that job!
I'm so glad I don't have K&T wiring.... that wiring example is so scary to watch... a bad 3-way circuit.... I'm glad you were able to show that... now people will be more aware, at least I hope...
Thank you for the video. As a home inspector I see many homes with the partial electrical upgrade you describe. Sometimes the upgrade is only the installation of a new panel and installing GFCI receptacles in a kitchen and bathroom. Other times the upgrade includes new receptacles, but without updating the wiring. If a buyer does not have the property inspected they should have the electrical system inspected before they move in or rent out the property. They would also need to be prepared to upgrade the electrical system in terms of budget and time. As you said, the time and cost of properly upgrading an electrical system to current safety standards can be expensive.
Knob & tube wiring was a good system when first installed, then people started adding other circuits to the system and 9 out of 10 times it was not done properly and the hazards started. After that I referred to knob & tube as knob & slob.
Knob and slob..... good one😊 your right, 90+ years ago, knob and tube was state of the art technology and was very safe for it's time, especially compared to the gas and oil lights it replaced. Most of the problems begin due to one thing. Human error. Putting 100 watt light bulb in ceiling and cooking the wiring into position. Burying into insulation especially attics. Inserting 30 amp fuses to prevent overload from blowing fuse and inconvenience. Bypassing fuse with penny or lining with aluminum foil. Adding more circuits to the existing wiring by means of weak and or exposed, unsafe splices, and other unapproved means. Finding an old house where the original wiring is left untarnished after nearly a century, is like finding a needle in a haystack.
@@Sparky-ww5rei have actually found wiring that was untouched, usually it has a 30 amp fuse in it, but it came out fine. Usually these wiring systems are okay, but lots of people think old always means bad. how I look at it is to evaluate it, look it over, if it is fine don't touch it, if it needs to be replaced. replace it, if it needs to be fixed, fix it. i hate it when people say all of it is bad just because of what it is.
@@gtb81. Unfortunately, many home insurance companies are refusing to write a home insurance policy of knob & tube are present in the home. Insurance companies are forcing conversion more than the electrical authorities are.
@@chrisgraham2904 yeah, it is usually down to making more money, if you are not willing to comply and pay to have the house gutted in order to remove it, you have to pay lots of money to insure it. it would be much more advantageous to have an electrician evaluate it, some do but not many. if i understand it correctly. usually knob and tube is not beyond repair if it isn't fine already. i actually have only seen one house with knob and tube that actually needed the rewire.
This video takes me back to a house we bought in '86 but built in 1913. It knob and tube in the attic, some early romex style and then a sprinkling of romex. Electrical panel had the screw in fuses. I found on socket with a penny in the bottom of itThere were even the push button light switches. I saved some of those old antique items. It was only a 60a service. Had a 100a service brought to the house and a licensed electrician install a new panel. After that I did all the work and it passed inspection. Oh there was even some bx.
The penny in a socket bit -- so dangerous! My father found that in the fuse box of a house he owned -- and the wiring was covered with cloth that just disintegrated in your fingers when you tried to work with it. I am glad that fuse boxes are just about a thing of the past.
No doubt, I been up in attic’s making plumbing repairs and come across the nob/tube that crap is scary..I been trying to be more aware. And try and learn more about it because it’s never going to hurt.
I’ve been in electrical for 25 years, I absolutely hate knob and tube. For its time it was great, one light and maybe 2 plugs at best in each room. The problem is that homeowners hire someone that is NOT licensed or has a clue as to how to handle that stuff. They just make open joints in the attic and crawlspace, and call it good. I have seen so many very dangerous things that people do with electrical, and I know it’s literally a miracle those places didn’t burn down.
Good advice. Also be careful of home modifications. Had framers stretch and pinch old wiring on my house when they were framing. I wasn't very happy. Glad i cought it. They got fired after a couple bad mistakes.
The smoking/arcing were not really caused by the knob and tube...it was the old switch. Common electrical practice calls for replacement of such old switches and outlets. When I bought my first home, built in 1913 and bought by me in 1979, my friend who was a veteran commercial electrician, while updating the system with breakers and romex, assured me that knob and tube is just fine when used for lights just not for high-amp-draw appliances so he didn't bother with replacing the knob and tube in the attic that powered only ceiling lights. The rest of the home was done with modern wiring and hardware including an even larger breaker box before I sold the house. The house is still standing and the folks I sold it to have had no problems with the electrical system.
K and t wiring was safer because the wires are not running next to each other like common wiring today. The problem now is that the insulation is brittle due to age.
Don’t expect home inspectors to find everything either. They are good at general things but often miss some of the finer details like the hybrid electrical he talks about here. I have a rental property 3 family that is this hybrid but mostly updated to Romex but still some of K&T still on the upper floors due to the complications of running all new wire up 3 floors. This video shows some serious K&T in need of updating though and with all that basement access it’s a wonder why it hasn’t been more updated hybrid style at minimum
I agree LH and I think a lot of home buyer assume with a home inspection anything that could cost them money in the future will be picked up by the inspector. From my experience that is simply not the case.
@@EverydayHomeRepairs My friends just bought a house 2 months ago that passed 2 inspections: 1 before and 1 after sale. So far both ACs have died, the water heater was replaced (by someone who left the old energized, stripped wiring HANGING one foot from the dryer), the solar power on the roof doesn't work, and when they were inspecting the AC after the first one died, the AC guy was able to slide the outside heat exchanger by a couple of inches and see sparks from where the electrical service entered the unit. And keep in mind this is Florida, where that AC should have been sitting on a concrete pad and bolted to the ground. That's just what I can remember off the top of my head, too. PS - If you want a county inspector to spot all the issues with your remodel, try insulting his mother. ;)
In my first home, they missed a BIG one. It had a smoke detector in the small hallway by the kitchen, bathroom and backdoor. It was an odd place in reflection. It became that time of the year to change batteries, but when I pulled the smoke detector down I was greeted by old fire damage that had been "fixed: in the dumbest way possible. The old knob and tube wire running inside the wall that had caught fire was fixed with wire nuts and electrical tape (but no electrical box) and a smoke detector put over it. I was not happy. I rewired the entire house after that. It was just to scary not to.
Home inspectors are not required to open anything during a home inspection. Most of their assessments are from visual inspection only of what is easily accessible. They are not certified electricians, plumbers, engineers or gas fitters. If your buying a heritage home and suspect knob & tube wiring, hire a separate certified electrician to assess the electrical.
@@chrisgraham2904 And home inspectors that find too much wrong, it pisses off the realtors and banks who quite using/recommending them. It's one of the industry's dirty little secrets.
100% Correct. Ours was built in 1932. We have a breaker panel on the north wall in the basement. One of the breakers is labeled "Aux Panel" that is a 4-socket Edison style fuse panel on the ground flor with 4 circuits that are still in service. We have a mix of 2 and 3 prong outlets, most of which don't test as having a ground and a mix of Romex and knob & tube. I hate it.
I grew up in a house with wiring like that. Cloth covered rubber insulated solid core. We had 2 switches like that too. The insulation preventing a shock was the wall paint someone had covered them with. When we scrapped off the wall paint, touching the switch from the side to trun it on gave a good shock. LoL. Another issue with the 1910 wiring was if you touched it, the insulation flaked off. Or somewhere inside the wall the wire strand itself broke. Pr both happened, the wire broke and at that point so did the insulation. We also had a fuze box in the basement with a circuit that was so bad there was a 1930s penny sitting in it. (We totally replaced that circuits wire back in the 70s.) Then there were the old switch types. Push button and external to the wall round bakelite switch boxes. We swapped a lot of those out.
I am in the process of rewiring a hybrid system with Knob and Tube installed for the lighting. In fact they had only ran a junction about 6 feet from the outdoor panel to the original fuse box. I ripped the outdoor panel off and put in a 200A shutoff and then installed a 200A service panel inside below where the original fuse box went. I ran 3/0 copper from the shutoff to the panel in conduit it that says anything BTW. Shortened up the jumpers to the original system and then put all the really old lines on to AFCI/GFCI breakers mainly because that is what I will use for wet locations and bedrooms so I figured why not get them in use and have a little better protection. From there I am knocking a hole near the ceiling and then running the wires down to the box location. It uses more wire but with 10 foot ceilings I am not worried about later on dropping them down and making things look good again. I went from a 100 amp panel that they installed outside and only had about 10 circuits ran. I already have more than that and haven't hooked up the 3 office circuits or started on the 2 living room circuits let alone the bathroom and upstairs. Plus I plan to remodel the kitchen and upgrade all that too. The other advantage of dropping the ceiling is that I am planning to install a master bathroom and bedroom in the upstairs so it will be really easy to run the plumbing along the ceiling as well. While I am doing the update I am also taking the time to run low voltage lines for DataComm throughout the house and ran an umbilical consisting of a power line, 4 rg6 lines, 4 cat6 ethernet lines, and 2 OM3 LC to LC fiber optic lines to a single demarcation point on the outside of the house. After getting to town and unloading all the stuff the first thing I had to do was cap a bunch of broken water lines and then replaced all the lines with PEX. Dug a new trench and dropped in 3/4 with insulation along the whole length to protect the line since I was barely able to get 18 inch depth before hitting rock in some areas plus I figured it would also protect the line from rocks. Brought it in to a manifold block and then ran lines to each fixture. My father had never worked with PEX and was dumbfounded that once the trench was dug we replaced all the supply in a couple hours. Now it's roof time and I am in the middle of the tear off doing it all by myself. And it has 4 roofs on the house, two are cedar shake and two are asphalt... I have 65 sheets of material to sheathe the roof and then the ice and water barrier as well as the synthetic underlayment. Shingles are a nice 5 tab or architectural ones that are an antique silver instead of the brown ones that are currently on the roof.
I was trying to find a video like this one my home is older and has been updated electrically except for one room all the wires were black not color coded😔 thanks for this video it was very helpful
The fact that a switch that old still contained all that smoke is a testament to how well built things were made back in the day. You never see modern switches smoking because they don't pre-charge them with smoke anymore. Sad.
I used to rent a duplex built around 1903 or 1904 and it had knob and tube wiring but was disconnected and the previos owner rewired the house and I was amazed at how knob & tube worked back then
That hybrid system is scary!! Several years ago when I lived in Pontiac Michigan, a neighbor's house caught fire on a cold November night. I just happened to get home from the grocery store when I saw flames coming from the attic vent, when I banged on their door telling them to get out now the house is on fire. The couple who lived there tell me it passed inspection there was a new electrical panel installed not that long ago, and they were running an electric fireplace while watching their evening program. An investigation showed the fire had started at a splice in the attic, with the knob and tube and romex. Two story wood wood framed house, built 1928. Felt horrible for the neighbor's because they had just purchased the property that same summer. Just because a home inspection shows everything in order, doesn't always catch every nook and craney
I upgraded my sister's 1911 house from knob and tube to Romex adding new circuts and and a breaker box. No old wiring remains. It was a lot of hours. My house was originally knob and tube with some upgrades. The 1929 knob and tube was done to a standard not seen today. In General the remaining knob and tube is better than new construction work done today. I have had to replace worn outlets and switches. I save the old cloth and rubber civered wire (the insulation falls off) for projects as the copper wire is high quality
I spoke with many electricians. Knob and tube has a bad reputation, the actual conductors were heavier and better copper than today's. Points of failure are the connections at fixtures and switches. The wires behind walls tend to be ok since they are not exposed. The knob and tube in a basement ceiling should always be replaced because is the easiest and if you accidentally break it could get electrocuted (your feet are literally grouded).
@@TheGonso35 Although the house didn't have any known knob and tube the 1910's or 1920's cloth covered wiring that was in one of my father's houses in the late 1980's appeared to be about 16 AWG. If it had been my house that wiring would likely had been immediately replaced (I did help him replace part of it and we did do complete circuit replacement and not splice into the 16 gauge, at the time 70 year old wiring).
interesting seeing wires that old and switch. we still have some 1950's versions of those switches still working fine still. though had one stop working and made the entire box live so the screws and the shocks were amusing figuring that one out but replaced it with no issues. Edit: forgot to mention this place is also a hybrid and its annoying af right now one of our neutral lines are so cooked that had to remove everything from that line so can no longer use it for most things except led lighting now, sadly landlord wants to do nothing with this place anymore so once something happens that's it its being sold and ripped down.
The old electrical system would worry me far less than the insect damage beginning at 5:40. Do those floor joists stand up to being poked with a screwdriver?
Very well done, hope you scared a few people into doing it the right way. One issue that I think needs to be addressed is the cost to a low income family who are required to upgrade to the 2020 code with the high price of AFCI & GFCI circuits. One point if one is forced to utilize older circuits, then I believe the circuit should be protected with a AFCI/GFCI breaker, as they will detect wires in the walls arcing and open the circuit, also you don't need a equipment ground to protect a person from shocks in a two wire bonded circuit.
Which is why they are not required by the NEC to upgrade. The NEC is not retroactive if the electrical supply was complaint when installed then according the NEC it's still complaint. It's only when modifications happen that an older installation becomes non-compliant. Also, checking with the AHJ will save you tons of money in those matters.
The only reason I no longer will state a fuse is superior to a circuit breaker is because of the AFCI technology. So the idea of removing the fuse block and using the fuse box as a junction box to splice to modern wiring methods back to the panel is a good idea IF your original knob and tube circuits were not set up as a multi-wire circuit. In other words, each fused circuit must have a corresponding, dedicated neutral so that when extending these wires the neutral can land on the AFCI breaker. If you have a multi-wire arrangement (larger pre-war homes used this) or you have a smaller home that might have used a "super neutral" (an oversized neutral shared by multiple circuits that once were all connected to a 30A 110V service) then the AFCI cannot be married to the old knob and tube.
I run into SO many homes that have the panel cobbled into cloth groundless, or knob and tube… it is always a better idea to actually replace the circuits all the way… an alternative is install arc fault breakers… the ones that will not stay energized MUST be replaced…
That switch style is much newer than most knob and tube, which usually had push buttons or rotary snap switches. The real problem was the light fixtures, where the wires came through a flat board between the joists on each of two 45 degree holes right next to and opposite each other. The wires would be cased with loom but the ends would simply sit under the fixture cradle, without a box. Heat from the light would destroy the insulation which just crumbles when you work with it. I've done a lot of knob and tube work over the years.
Great video! The issues you bring up are good. Original knob and tube and be safe, but tying it into any other system can be dangerous. The original wire insulation was fabric, cotton I believe, and it can turn to dust over the years. So they depended on the ceramic knobs and tubes for insulation. The safe way to tie it into a box is to SOLDER on modern wire to the knob and tube supported wires, and then bring those modern wires into the box. You don't want fabric insulated wires to be coming through a metal box. Next problem is when people insulate around knob and tube. Bad plan!!! That wiring was never designed to be surrounded with blow in foam or fiberglass insulation. If you're going to insulate, replace all of the old wiring and fixtures with new equipment that is safe to be up against insulation.
A lot of houses must have burned down then from the wires overheating in the Attic due to the fiberglass insulation around them over the decades that has been routinely done.
@@frankpaya690 That has happened, but it takes 2 things to cause a fire. First, the extra insulation. Second, overloading the circuits, by putting in the wrong size fuses. The original circuits would have had at most a 15A fuse, sometimes lower, so the wires would never overheat.
Hybrid situation here with some cables still in use BUT 1974 construction, changed the stove wire but still have some original blue gained cable in the wall hooked to junction boxes going to the more modern installation.
One of those investments that can really seal a deal on selling a home I would imagine. Showing the full electrical overhaul to safe grounded is worth the peace of mind, especially if you want to keep an older home around.
Old BX cable is a serious safety issue, and is a frequent source of fire here in Massachusetts. BX cable is a metal sheath wrapped around two or more conductors. BX was standard practice from the 1920s until the 1940s, when it was replaced by first-generation Romex cable. The issue with old BX cable is that insulation of the conductors inside the shield deteriorates and becomes brittle and fragile with age. Once that happens, then ANY movement of the cable can cause that degraded insulation to break off and expose the conductors to the sheath and to each other. The typical fire scenario is that a homeowner or even licensed electrician replaces a bathroom ceiling light fixture with a new box and exhaust fan. The existing fixture has several BX runs to other locations on the same branch and a BX run to a nearby switch. While replacing the box, all of those BX runs are moved a little while doing the work. Each run often has a bend where it goes down into a wall cavity, so when the BX is moved, the area near the bend moves a bit while the bend stays fixed. The work is done, everything is buttoned up, and the new fan works fine. A day or so later, a fire starts in one of those BX runs, where the movement of the cable caused the insulation to break off the conductors. The firefighters I know tell me that old BX is more dangerous in my Massachusetts city than knob and tube -- if nothing else because most knob and tube has been removed, while too many homeowners see BX and assume that everything is fine.
Old BX should not be a problem by itself. BX is like modern MCAP or armored Cable in regards to grounding. I understand that the cloth can be flammable. But any short should blow a fuse or trip a breaker. The steel jacket should contain the spark and should help prevent a fire by denying it oxygen. I’ve seen a lot of BX that is in a sorry state. But I’ve never seen a fire outside of a box that resulted from BX. The biggest issue I’ve seen is when the cloth breaks down were the conductors enter the box.
My house had "updated" electric that former owners had paid an electrician thousands to do and all he did was replace the panel with a used panel at that So have have spent the better part of a year running all new wirs and patching many many holes I had to make to do it.
If you're going to talk electrical to any homeowner please do everyone a favor and stress the safety aspect. NEVER trust a breaker. You should be properly using an electrical meter to check and verify voltage as well as voltage removed before touching anything. Keep up the information but remember a lot of people may see your videos without using safety measures, PPE, and proper techniques then do as you have shown just to learn the hard way about electrical hazards and safety.
Yes a lot of peeps know just enough and are just daring enough to actually do a lot of stupid shit that is really dangerous . And do not realize what they have done …………..
@@jakesully5402 no those are not reliable especially with old knob and tube. A tick tracer is just a fast way to see if power is present, it's an idiot stick.A wiggy is a mechanical meter with two leads like a digital meter but a wiggy has a solenoid which creates a small load. It will tell you if you actually have a neutral present, a ground present, voltage etc. Digital meters have no solenoid so sometimes hot to neutral it may say 72v but you don't have anything 😉
@B E , good info but not the fact I said Saif electrical meter not specifically a digital one. Knob and tube with an old analog is good too but even if it's notn100% reliable it would be better than using your fingers and the casing of the switch to test if the voltage is still there or not. I've had too many times with scenarios like this that there was power being fed from more than the breaker.
I actually installed Knob and Tube in A Cabin i have. off course no power to it. just the looks cause its exposed. I have actually new Electrical hidden in the walls. But, any time you turn on switch and lights come on, it has that look of Old style. I have the Old Fashion plugs and and switches, even few old look lights. With Knob and tubes running to some of them. Kindof neat looking really. Im sure if i was to ever sell the place, It would be something i have to remove I think.
That looks like a three way switch, so it's not just on and off. When it's {off} in reality it's passing current to the other switch so it can work as well and vice versa, it looks that it was arching when it was feeding the other switch
I had that at 10Jefferson street Worcester, Mass. One breaker which should be a hint, and the rest was K&T one night in the attic I saw the wires a dull red through the loom which is a cloth covering the wire and going through the tube into a stud or joist.
I have an older cottage rental that had the meter and fuse box in the front porch that was enclosed to become part of the house. The tenants would have to leave their curtains open once a month to let the utility guy read the meter. I eventually sprang for a new meter and breaker panel outside the house, but the core wiring remains a hybrid of romex with knob and tubing.
I think the term they use along the lines of "obviously disconnected" (cut short and taped off) to mean it's no longer energized. The point this video makes is some guys update stuff in the basement but the K&T is still active in other hidden parts of the house.
It does NOT but you can't modify it at all. It is not an approved method today but was approved when installed so it it allowed unless your local building dept. or electrical inspector has the right to require you need to replace it.
@@cgsound ... might be splitting hairs but building inspectors don't have special rights. They do have authority based on local govt rules. In some areas a rental home must be up to code, at least on any changes. An inspector might have the leeway to allow an older code to stand but I doubt modified K&T would pass, mostly because it's been modified. BTW, that switch shown in the video was likely not an approved installation in it's day because it's a metal box, which was not in use for K&T.
@@rocketrider1405 ... most insurance companies wont bother to ask. OTOH, most banks require a building inspection on the home BEFORE a loan. IOW, it's a trick question where the insurance company figures you got the loan so you must have passed the inspection. Where insurance companies get interested in details is usually after the fact, when there's a claim involved. Oh, that's bogus, there's no permit or inspection for that work, etc.
@@EverydayHomeRepairs I did all the finish work, but had them run wires! Electrician about had a cow when we did inspection, bunch of open boxes and loose wires just handing around. Bought for approx $100k in 2016 and probably worth upwards of $250k (we also did plumbing, roof, new deck and total gut of basement and partial upstairs).
I believe your diagnosis may have missed that the switch is actually a 3-way switch. If the "Hot" was on the left side of the switch then on the right side were the two outs for a 3-way switch so when you"Turned It Off" you actually switched it from the bottom "Out" to the top one. You already observed that the top one was shorted to the box so that's where your short came from. Because the box was not grounded and the wood can conduct some current is why it didn't blow the fuse/breaker as it was a high resistance short just enough to cause heat within the switch. What say you?
You're correct that it's a 3 way switch but within it smoldering the contacts were aging and it did look super old so either way it was time to get a new one. But it did arc against the box. Without a ground you do become the ground. Ik back then they didn't have grounds to Switches so it wasn't obvious but they did carry electrical tape/Rubber tape as I used to hear the oldheads call it. Either way it was time for a brand new one.
@John Naber I also think that it's a older 3 way switch where the travelers are actually the top 2 screws and the line / load terminal is on the bottom right, completely opposite of the newer 3 way's, but none the less it's definitely a 3 way switch.
@@crockpot5194 Thanks for reply. My home is a Victorian in Northern California of unknown age. When I purchased the home 30 years ago they could only say that it had been moved to this location 100 years ago and had no idea where it came from originally. There was a mish-mash of knob and tube and some home updates that were done completely wrong. Love your videos. Thanks, John
My stepson and his wife bought a house built in 1929. As you mentioned on the video, the home was said that it’s electrical was upgraded. Although it had a 200 amp service panel with a 20 circuit capacity and Romex was run in the basement, everything else in the walls and attic was knob and tube wiring. He was quoted $12,000 without updating the panel which needed more circuits. Since I’m an electrical engineer and licensed electrical contractor, we rewired the entire house with an updated panel adhering to the 2020 NEC. Total cost was about $2,000. The electrical inspector said it was some of the best work he’d seen in years. By the way, great video to let homebuyers to be aware of safety and costs in wiring of old homes. 😀👍
Love it, and nice with helping him out. I just bought a house from 1915 in a farm town where it had a 700 square foot 2 story addition added in 1938, both were knob and tube. It seems like this whole house has been a case of a friend helping a friend and in about 2002 there was a 200 amp panel added and they rewired from first floor outlets down to the basement, everything from 1st story lighting upwards was still knob and tube. I got an 80 amp sub panel and plan to wire it in a second floor closet and rewire myself according to modern code. It's funny what all you can find when multiple generations of "handyman" lays hands on your house haha
@@Timman57 That's great Timathy that you've got yourself an old house to fix up. As for installing your sub panel in a clothes closet, you may want to consider another location for it. According to the 2017 NEC at article 240.24D, the heading reads, *Not in Vicinity of Easily Ignitable Material.* Overcurrent devices shall not be located in the vicinity of easily ignitible materials, such as in clothes closets.
Good luck with your wiring and wishing you all the best!
Knob and tube systems are installed originally quite well in my experience, when someone modifies it (usually poorly) that seems to be when safety issues arise.
That has been my experience as well.
Definitely.
When knob and tube is modified improperly that's when it is dangerous.
I personally would prefer knob and tube with the addition of a ground conductor as the hot and neutral wires are farther apart than they are in romex.
That would mean if the insulation goes bad the hot and neutral stand a lesser chance of touching each other given they are separated a bit.
The saving thing about old knob and tube wiring is the two wires are separated (usually) by some distance. I don't know if there was a standard. The problem with them is the insulation is usually in terrible shape and they had poor insulating materials to begin with. The wires themself loosing their insulation isn't much of a problem because of the wires being spaced apart (well bare wires could sure be a problem to you). The big problem is when the 2 wires are brought in or out of a fixture box. Now the 2 wires may not be separated and you have to work on these old, with crumbling insulation, wires..
@@EverydayHomeRepairs the other problem you see is the wires have become very short over the years of people changing recepticals and switches. Often even adding a pigtail is difficult to get a wire nut or connector on the existing wire.
@@smitlag Or crowding your wires & nuts in a small box, when pigtailing.
I had a switch that was probably original to the house, and it didn't smoke like that, but the light flickered AND I could hear it arcing in the switch. Fixed that in a hurry!
This is the best non-electrician electrical channel on UA-cam - I’ve been an electrician for a long time and I always find your channel interesting and accurate and I like how you read your comments and correct yourself where you think you went wrong - kudos to you!
I'm aware in some places (like where I live) those "hybrid" updates are illegal, once one thing gets touched the whole thing has to be redone. this leads to a situation where a professional electrician will quote a crazy high price for even something simple, and leads to people that do their own DIY fixes that either become ticking timebombs or burns the whole place down
It's not as if every DIY'er burns their house down 🤦♂️ It's really no rocket science to understand how to strip a wire and bolt it onto a switch or outlet or whatever. Sure some people mess it up, but i think it's a silly common assumption that electricians are high up wizards and everyone else should keep their hands of it. As long as someone has the intention to do it well, and reads through all the information relevant to it, it's highly probably fine. If someone doesn't care how it's done and just wants to have it done for free then sure you get the ticking timebomb/house burned down.
@@Engineer9736 you really should keep your hands off of it if you’re not an electrician it’s not some silly diy project it will kill you
@@Engineer9736 no they don't burn their houses down. But they sure give us a lot of work fixing their DIY fuckups
@@Engineer9736 There's a lot of job security that is at the root of these generalizations.
@@Engineer9736 As an electrical engineer, I bet most electricians can barely do a circuit analysis. Read up on codes and NEC, and most of us can probably do a better job since we care more about our own houses than someone on a clock. Crawling through attic or crawl space would be the hardest part.
I replaced all the wiring in my 70 year old house but what made that easy was I was gutting it to put in insulation since it was never insulated. so I did all new romex, boxes, outlets etc and I did it all myself. I took residential wiring in vocational school and while I never made a career out of it, it saved me a ton of money.
My system is hybrid and I can access most receptacles via the attic. It's so much easier being in a house with no insulation, of course. Also, my panel just got upgraded professionally to 200 amp. Having a main breaker is the best.
Great tutorial, I grew up in a late 1800’s home where we re-romex’d three stories and considered it a no brainer though expensive back in the day. Do it right the first time and you’ll build value and sleep better while living there.
With "living" being the key word.
yup - -that's how I see it too...
Not sure why everyone always says you have to open up the walls to rewire.
I rewired my whole house without ever damaging the original plaster in my 1890 home.
It was a hybrid system, I replaced all of it. Even the old romex as I just didn't trust it. Especially since even the romex that had ground wire in it, the ground wasn't used or hooked up.
Also went from 2 outlets in a room, to 8 per room.
Of course it took a bit longer, and used more wire as I couldn't just go around the room with one run.
But I wanted to save the beautiful textured plaster finish we had on our walls.
Went from 12 fuses to 30 breakers.
In the process of something similar, house was built in 1911. Originally didn't have anything other than lights till someone went in and added a couple plugs here and there... It's been tough but working on lots of upgrades and changes.
The amount of structure damage will depend on the configuration of the home. One of my customers recently upgraded an 1890's, two story, 3,500 square foot home, with a complex floor plan, that was all original knob & tube system. As in their case, home insurance companies were refusing to write a policy on a home with knob & tube wiring. They did their homework and found an electrical contract who specialized in knob & tube conversions. To my surprise the entire home was fully rewired and the contractor only had to create two 4" diam. holes in the walls during the entire process. With a new 200 Amp panel and all new wiring to code, their annual insurance premium was also reduced by $250.00 per year.
@@chrisgraham2904 Yeah, the older the home, I think the easier it is.
Balloon framing makes it so much easier.
With no fire stops, you can pull a wire just about anywhere.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the romex needs to be secured to the studs at regular intervals (NEC). As a result it will be very difficult to do a code-compliant installation without opening the walls, and that's why people say you need to open the walls : they assume you are going to do it right... which I really recommend because if there is a fire or anything (even after you sell the home !), you will may be found liable for the consequences
@@uski Your statement is true where the studs are accessible as if a house is being built or remodeled. When the walls are on the studs, Romex can be fished in the walls without being stapled and is code compliant.
7:10 I would say that pull string is more like 80 years old. Nothing like that was being used when I first learned about construction as a small boy in 1965. No knob-and-tube then; all wiring was very much like it is today, complete with the ground wire.
pullstrings and keyless are no longer allowed due to code needing bulb to be protected
@@davidicousgregorian Actually, a new light fixture with a built in pull cord to turn power on and off is still code in Michigan. The way that was set up with a separate pull cord feet away -- since I have never even come across it IDK. Also, the state doesn't care if the bulb is protected with a cover. Michigan is usually 50 years behind every other state with everything but since these light fixtures are commonly available I suspect other states allow them as well.
@@mharris5047 thats the new code for new builds not remodels or reinstalls code is for new book and new construction . old rebuilds allow old rules from as far back as 2015 not 50 years but maybe 7 depending on jurisdiction rules . and no not behind most southern states are behind due to population . more homes mean more accidents to base new codes by.
pullcords like you describe are allowed in some cities but not new construction built in cords still require bulb to be covered enclosed but allow those type of enclosed to use a chainpull but new code for 2023 says not for new installs
@@mharris5047 E4003.2 Luminaires Near Combustible Material
Luminaires shall be installed or equipped with shades or guards so that combustible material will not be subjected to temperatures in excess of 90°C (194°F). (410.11) michigans rules
also this
E4003.12 Luminaires in Clothes Closets
For the purposes of this section, storage space shall be defined as a volume bounded by the sides and back closet walls and planes extending from the closet floor vertically to a height of 6 feet (1829 mm) or the highest clothes-hanging rod and parallel to the walls at a horizontal distance of 24 inches (610 mm) from the sides and back of the closet walls respectively, and continuing vertically to the closet ceiling parallel to the walls at a horizontal distance of 12 inches (305 mm) or the width of the shelf, whichever is greater. For a closet that permits access to both sides of a hanging rod, the storage space shall include the volume below the highest rod extending 12 inches (305 mm) on either side of the rod on a plane horizontal to the floor extending the entire length of the rod (see Figure E4003.12). (410.2)
The types of luminaires installed in clothes closets shall be limited to surface-mounted or recessed incandescent or LED luminaires with completely enclosed light sources, surface-mounted or recessed fluorescent luminaires, and surface-mounted fluorescent or LED luminaires identified as suitable for installation within the closet storage area. Incandescent luminaires with open or partially enclosed lamps and pendant luminaires or lamp-holders shall be prohibited. The minimum clearance between luminaires installed in clothes closets and the nearest point of a closet storage area shall be as follows: [410.16(A) and (B)]
Surface-mounted incandescent or LED luminaires with a completely enclosed light source shall be installed on the wall above the door or on the ceiling, provided that there is a minimum clearance of 12 inches (305 mm) between the fixture and the nearest point of a storage space.
Surface-mounted fluorescent luminaires shall be installed on the wall above the door or on the ceiling, provided that there is a minimum clearance of 6 inches (152 mm).
Recessed incandescent luminaires or LED luminaires with a completely enclosed light source shall be installed in the wall or the ceiling provided that there is a minimum clearance of 6 inches (152 mm).
Recessed fluorescent luminaires shall be installed in the wall or on the ceiling provided that there is a minimum clearance of 6 inches (152 mm) between the fixture and the nearest point of a storage space.
Surface-mounted fluorescent or LED luminaires shall be permitted to be installed within the closet storage space where identified for this use. [410.16(C)]
You nailed it when you said “that has been tampered with”. Knob and tube- even 100 years old- is perfectly serviceable if undamaged and not tampered with. It used insulated wire, but was designed to largely not depend on it by use of the porcelain insulators and tubes. A grounding conductor can be easily added where it makes sense to have one. And the quality of those old devices is stunning compared to new ones. Any that are in good condition are fine. My dream would be to find an old house with an all original, unmolested electrical system. Probably pretty rare now. 100 years of people that can’t keep their hands off of it lol.
I would put a fuse panel back in my 160 year old house if I found one with enough circuits. The breakers in the replacement panel failed, almost burning the place down. Studying the breakers in general led me to learn a breakers life is about 10 years or under (30 year max), and even a functioning one will not trip most of the time as they are really for short circuit protection. And running the breaker at 120% while never tripping is the thing that shortens the breaker life ironically, frys the wiring, and ensures the breaker does nothing at 150%+ output when the day comes.
(the plasticizer in my old, but retrofitted romex is separating and failing, but the knob and tube is in great shape still)
I wrote the same thing above. Just don't tape the two conductors together and shove them through the same hole.
Realvanman1 I recently worked in a house with an entirely untouched electrical system. 😎 The electrician saved most of the switches but the original circuits wasn't really salvageable
Insulation was poor, if not it wouldn't require ceramic insulators, and degrades with time, thus it's now impossible to find perfectly insulated wires even if they where when installed. I guess that if you retrofit a GFCI breaker in a knob and tube installation it will trip for some badly insulated cable in some wall with high humidity.
Also it's less safe. Usually cable that you install in a wall is either double insulated multicore wire or single insulated single wires in a conduit, to give a double layer of protection. Knob and tube it's not even single insulated, you have the bare conductors in the wall, that can be accidentally touched when doing some maintenance.
If you have to add a ground, at that point better to replace the wiring with something modern that will last even more time without issues.
@@caseyrevoir Not nearly, normal breakers last a lifetime, they are purely mechanical, never heard of having to change them. RCD/GFCI have a test button that let you test the functionality, to know if they still trip (and you should do that test at least once in a while), since they are more complex and have electronics in them.
The fact that a breaker will not trip at 120%, yes they don't for short amount of time, that is how they work. It would be impossible to do differently without some electronic in them, but normal breakers works by pure magnetic and thermal effects. In my country for fixed wiring you tend to install a size of wire that can carry more current than the breaker that is installed: for example for lighting circuit we have 10A or most recently with LED 6A breakers with 1.5mm2 cable, that can carry 15A without problems, for sockets 16A breaker with 2.5mm2 cable, that can carry 20A no problem.
In a well designed installations a breaker should never trip for overload (unless the client does something stupid like plugging in 2 3kW heater on a single circuit). If it does it means that you should have split the load on two different circuits. The most common thing that makes breaker trip is faults, short circuits and ground faults (in that case we are talking of RCBO)
My company is currently upgrading cloth wiring and bare neutral wires in a historic university building that is over 100 yrs old. It is such a pain finding where everything goes and making sure all of the wire is out from the panel to each device. Especially since a lot of it is hidden inside the concrete walls.
Been there done that in Detroit and Ann Arbor in old historic buildings and homes during my career in the electrical trade. I saw a lot of fascinating stuff, but as you say, it can be a real pain. Great memories though, I'm a retired Master now.
does cloth wiring always mean knob and tuuub?
Old age isn't the only issue. A lot of houses around here were built with aluminum wiring in the 1970's. Now the house flipper you bought from last year swapped in those flatter squarish light switches (so he could say "updated electrical"). But if those fancy decora replacement switches and outlets he found at the dollar store don't specify aluminum and copper compatible, that nice ABC fire extinguisher in the video won't be enough to save the place.
Aluminum wiring is an entirely separate problem. Houses with aluminum wiring are not “old,” by my standards. It was a modern innovation.
@@GH-oi2jf That's my point. Buying something 90 years old requires checking the electrical carefully.
Buying something only 45 years old still requires checking the electrical carefully.
(And buying something new requires checking everything carefully)
I had a space heater melt an outlet that was wired to aluminum wiring, I don't trust the stuff.
@@brandonlink6568 If you checked the melted outlet, it probably did not have the CU•AL compatibility symbol that is REQUIRED before installing it on aluminum wiring. I saw a brand new photocopier melt an outlet when they switched it on. A few years later that building burnt down. Five family businesses lost that day because of incompatible electrical parts.
Al wire is perfectly safe......IF it was spliced correctly. And fused/breakered accordingly. The problem is that alot has not.
Theres a whole list on how to splice Cu to aluminum, pigtailing yada yada. Wouldnt touch the stuff if my life depended on it but just saying.
Afterall the wiring coming from the utility pole is all aluminum.
I believe that switch - 40s era - is arcing across that dust accretion.
Knob and tube is not dangerous in and of itself, even though it is not a grounded system. Classically, they ran single wires with one side of the house being neutral and one side of the house being hot. Connections were made in the wall with a hot or neutral only connected at one place, INSIDE the circuit box. Those separate wires passed through separate holes on opposite sides. Thus any contact was not possible apart from the fixture itself.
The problem comes when a new system is grafted onto knob and tube. Often the hot and neutral are taped together and run though the same hole. Now there is an element of heat and friction. The old insulation is dry, friable and subject to breakage due to heat. NOW the conductors are in close proximity to each other and undersized for the new load. Plus, if a rated connector is not used, they suffer wear from friction on the raw edge of the box and will short out on metal.
If you have knob and tube, don't graft it to Romex. Run a new lead to the point of use. Use your existing fuse block as a sub panel connected to a modern panel box. Or, you could open all the walls and rewire the whole house. Your choice.
I mean, if it was **fundamentally** unsafe, you wouldn't even have a house to worry about. It would have burned down decades ago.
Go ahead, guys. Start ripping me.
That basement needs a serious upgrade, BTW. **shudder** Too many generations of amateur work.
You're correct. I learned wiring doing old city houses with knob and tube. I learned how to cut a metal box in to lath pretty well too. My old teacher would set a separate metal box for hot and ground when grafting to knob and tube (lighting circuits generally). He would also ground spike the boxes.
Ditto. And you don't play with that old wiring too much either. The insulation kind of disintegrates, especially when it is close to the heat of the lamp.
You sound like you know your stuff
10,000 $ I’ll clean that basement up over a few weeks . It will never be straightened out like most slums it will just be there forever
You talk like an actual tradesman that understands why you're doing something and that every action leads to a certain reaction. Many people calling themselves electricians are merely parts Changers who don't have a clue why they're doing what they're doing. It's just what they've always been told,.. they don't really have an understanding beyond everything is going to be ripped out and they don't know how to tell if something's good. they don't know how to calculate based on the size of the wire & the overcurrent if it's correct. They're taught these generalizations and that's what they do, they're blind to actually any sense of condition the wiring is in. They haven't got a clue what a Western Union splice is and that's what you need to use if you're tapping into knob and tube. loose splices start a lot of fires.
As a home inspector I've got to hand it to you this was a great video that made some very important points.
You have the knowledge and the perfect delivery style to share it.
Subscribed.
Finishing with asserting the importance of a proper inspection for every inexperienced homebuyer is the best advice too many real estate agents fail to give.
One of the issues folks have when upgrading the panel is when it is explained to them that for new branch circuit wiring and fixtures to adhere to code they cannot just fish romex through closed cavities and consider it an upgrade. The new wiring needs to be fastened to framing members at the prescribed intervals and that requires poking holes to patch up and match up. The cost and inconvenience of that more often lead to the junction boxes exactly as you described.
Perhaps that may be the case for some local town codes, but the NEC allows it:
The National Electrical Code (NEC) allows for unsupported nonmetallic-sheathed cable (NM) and Type MC cable to be fished between access points through concealed spaces in finished buildings when it's impractical to support them. Other conditions that allow for unsupported cable include:
The cable is no more than 1.4 meters (4.5 feet) from the last point of support to the connection point
The cable and connection point are in an accessible ceiling in a one-, two-, or multifamily dwelling
The cable is Type MC interlocked armor and no more than 900 millimeters (3 feet) from the last secure fastening point
I live in Australia. I remember my father showing me the internals of a switch like that in our home way, way back in the early 1970's. I remembered the spring that you show in the video. Wow. Brings back some memories. Thanks mate. Cheers.
That pull string looks cool. Also love the old bakelite and brass cover plates and the old switches that have a satisfying click to them when pressed. I agree that rewiring is a great idea to add grounding and increase safety however in the process I would try to save and reuse as much of the original switches, receptacles, fixtures, and cover plates as possible. Many of these items add so much character to an older property and are often hard to replicate and/or better built than a lot of the cheap crap that is being sold today.
A lot of the older last century homes actually have much heavier gauge high quality copper wiring.
I happened to found it out during replacement of some worn out receptacles of the hybrid system.
I noticed the standard 15 amp modern wiring are 30% thinner.
@@andyk192 I agree that older switches can fail like the one shown in the video has however many of the newer switches, especially the cheaper ones fail much more often. My rule of thumb is to always stick to spec, commercial, or industrial grade switches and receptacles regardless of whether I am reusing an old switch or receptacle or buying a new one. Cheap residential grade devices go in the scrap pile regardless of age. As for having a switch fail which can happen, if you have properly grounded metal boxes and cover plates there is a minimal risk of fire since the fault current will be safely carried away by the equipment ground and the breaker or fuse protecting the circuit will trip/blow assuming it is in good working condition. Therefore, old switches and receptacles can be used safely as long as your wiring is in good condition, all of your boxes are properly grounded, and you are using good quality and properly sized circuit breakers or fuses to protect each circuit. I would much rather be living in a house with the original fuse boxes, switches, fixtures, and receptacles that has just had the wiring replaced with modern thermoplastic insulated wiring and all of the boxes properly grounded rather than a house with a cheap but new aluminum bus breaker panel, and cheap plastic decora plates and devices all connected to the original cloth and rubber insulated wiring. I bet we can all agree with that. Too bad that seeing the former is very rare but the later seems to be very common.
@@loktom4068 houses built say 80 in more years ago they didn't often make the distinction between number 12 for a 20 and number 14 for a 15 amp overcurrent, they used all number 12 and that wire often was silver clad copper, ( I thought it was aluminum at first) it was copper dipped in molten silver which is a better conductor than copper and both are much better than aluminum that's why with aluminum, if you had a 20 amp overcurrent you would have a number min. 10 gauge wire which is one size larger than number 12 because there's more resistance with aluminum then copper.
@@CompGuy66 the switch he showed was not original to knob and tube
Well, I don't know the latest code but for years it was possible to install GFCI outlets where there wasn't a ground available. I believe it was supposed to be marked, "No Ground" or some such. A GFCI operates about as fast as a dead short takes out a CB so it offers equal or better protections. A problem with the GFCI is that they sometimes "fail un-safe."
My house was hybrid when I moved in... Get this, every receptacle, light switch, and ceiling fan were all on one 20a breaker (well, the microwave and 1 ceiling fan were not)... Lucky for me I had a friend that was an electrician, it took us about two years of very casual work schedules to get all the cloth wiring out, then another 2 years to upgrade the 60a service wire to 200a service wire (the 60a wire was feeding a 200a main, yikes!)... but its done now, and I learned enough that I could do it again on my own. Good times for sure, I learned a lot and I sleep way better at night.
as a retired electrician & later, a electrical safety inspector i've found that the biggest problem with knob & tube wiring is overfusing & untrained people adding on to the circuits. never do either of these. if more receptacles are needed, start at the breaker panel & wire from there. loadwise, kitchens are the worst culprit. cap k&t receptacles & install all new. other appliances like washers, air conditioners, pumps, furnaces, etc should be run off new wiring, NEVER knob & tube ! remember codes now require most residential circuits be afci & gfci protected. if you are going to "gut" your house, demo all the knob & tube. if not, restrict it's use to existing lighting only. my house was built in 1906-i feel for you !
1925 house here. i removed the K&t from it when i replaced the panels. rewired everything from the panel to the outlets/lights. all new romex and removed the old wiring as i replaced them. a contractor asked me if he could keep the old ceramic support. i gave it to him. dunno what he did with it tho but i know im all safe. also found out tons of illegal junction box and funky wiring when i did it. it was scary... outlet inside a plaster wall no box used as a junction, junction box full of plaster with live wires, you never know. safer to start from the panel to the end than retrofitting old stuff
@@patricklegault6383 as hacked up as your old wiring was, it's wise you replaced all of it. with k&t in 1925 one could splice & tap wires without a box. most ceiling fixtures were installed without a box. there were no wirenuts back then, so electricians soldored their connections, then wrapped them with friction tape. we've come a long way since then.
In reality, knob & tube wiring systems were designed and installed to satisfy the lighting requirements of a home only. They handled the family entertainment system ( one radio), a kettle in the kitchen and a clothes iron in the laundry room. Today, LED and other energy efficient lighting systems are the smallest consumers of electricity in your home. You can't save much electricity today by diligently turning off the lights.
@@chrisgraham2904 A good electric kettle for US or Canada use draws between 1100-1500 watts. If the knob and tube is 16 gauge you are at or above its limit just with one thing. Even with 14 gauge wire you are pushing if if something else is also running on that circuit. Combine that with crumbly cloth insulation and you have a recipe for a fire (if the wire were rubber coated then covered with cloth like some knob and tube wiring used you might be OK for the 10 minutes the kettle is running).
I have a 1933 home that HAD same issues. I removed all old wiring and replaced with new. I found many issues doing so and VERY glad I replaced all wiring from the basement to the attic on a 2 story house. It had an updated breaker box only. I had the outside service replaced as well.
I had a home from 1914 that was almost exclusively knob-and-tube. I was able to update all of the first floor wiring myself, with proper grounds and everything. I'm super proud of this feat.
Nice !!! It probably will take a bit of damage to do the top floor, but the peace of mind is well worth it. Find a path to the attic and bring up a few lines. It takes more wire to go up-over-down to each plug or switch but u will probably minimize the damage to walls. I did it in my house, sometimes was lucky enough to simply use the old wire as a pull string. Eventually got house entirely up to present day code. Nice peace of mind for sure
Old houses scare me. They're so creepy.
As you ought to be!!
In the early 1950s my family lived in a house built around 1900-1910. We had no problems with its knob and tube wiring while there. In 1974 I bought my first house, which was about three years old at the time. It was wired with aluminum wire, and plagued with intermittent receptacles and one case of melted wires at the point that they connected to the dish washer. Luckily, the connection was made in a steel box on the washer, and no fire developed. I was glad to see the last of that house.
Dishwashers produce heat in the drying cycle, anything heat producing tends to draw a lot of amperage. I believe the code today is a dedicated circuit for the dishwasher as well as the microwave-something that was not common in houses in 1974.
My home was built in 1996 and a lot of the switches were failing when I purchased last year. I just went ahead and replaced all the switches in the home and later I went through and replaced all the receptacles as well. Got rid of the bottom of the barrel super cheap stuff and I replaced it all with spec grade decent stuff.
You see what minimum code is D- at best and to think each $0.29 switch and outlet was marked up to $5 each lol
@@wizard3z868 components which are so poorly built shouldn't be UL listed. It's almost criminal!
@@Krankie_V agian bare minimum standards you ever heard of a turd in a box with a guarantee what you have there is a ul listing to not catch fire right away and if it dose its supposed to minimize the damage lol but no liability if it dosent
Our first home was a 10-year old tract home built in the early '90s. Plugs were always loose in the outlet sockets, so I wound up replacing all of them. It was a good starter home, but it was built with the least expensive materials the builder could get.
im surprised for a 1996 home that all of that needed to be replaced. everything was up to code for that year though right?
I grew up in a house that looked just like the one you were in. It had the old glass fuses too. When the 15 amp glass fuses would blow because that circuit was overloaded, we just put in 20 amp glass fuses. LOL The house had no grounds either on the outlets. We would just get the 3 prong to 2 prong adapters. We even had a cat running under the house and its tail touched one of the wires in the tube and knob system where the insulation on the wire had come off and was electrocuted. We didn't have any class ABC fire extinguishers either. We had a hand blown glass round container the size of a grape fruit filled with carbon tetrachloride. You learn quickly not to touch the metal boxes or the screws on the light switches. One night during a party with all the lights on, I went out to the old fuse box and could feel the heat from that box over 3 feet away. All of that was nothing compared to the old furnace. When the pilot light would blow out there was nothing to shut of the pilot gas line and everything would fill with gas. The fix was to just leave the door to the furnace a jar to let in extra air so the pilot would not blow out. We were so lucky that only a cat died and the house didn't explode. LOL
Those were the days my friend
We thought they'd never end
We'd sing and dance forever and a day
We'd live the life we choose
We'd fight and never lose
For we were young and sure to have our way
I think you are making up the part about the cat. And the fuse box heat 3 feet away. (it's OK to lie in these comments to make a good story.)
@@glasslinger In the old homes, the tube and knob wiring was covered with a cloth type of insulation. When it got very old, if you touched it the insulation would just flake off and expose the bare wire. We had a litter of kittens born under our house that my sister was feeding. I will admit that my sister told me about the kitten getting electrocuted and that I did not see it directly. OK, to be perfectly honest here, it was closer to 2 feet away that I could feel the heat coming from the fuse box. I was not making this up to make a good story. It all did happen. The pilot light was not being blown out, I think it was being starved of oxygen. The gas system was installed in the old oil burner that the house originally had. That was why the cure for the pilot going out was to just leave the oil furnace door ajar to let in more oxygen. When my mother died in 2000, I was the executor of the estate and the new buyers of the house did bulldoze the house so no one else will be hurt from all of that nonsense. I was just a teenager at the time and didn't really know any better than to do these things. I won't even get into the asbestos covered flue ducts through out this large 3,300 sqft home.
Funny that you put up that song....
There was an "All In The Family" episode where Archie had "fixed" a blown (glass) fuse by putting a penny under it, then had an electrical fire and thought he would collect from insurance, forgetting about the penny......then the inspector found it.
@@kennethalbert4653 You are very perceptive. As a 15 year old boy, you just don't think about things like that. LOL
My Mom and Dad bought an older home back in the early 70's. It was originally built in the late teens or early 20's, as it had the kind of wiring you showed in the basement, but this home only had an attic. I warned them about the wiring in the house, but they were strapped for cash and couldn't do anything about it. By the late 70's they had saved enough that the entire house was rewired with a new panel, and had new romex run to every outlet, light, and switch. That cost them about $5000 back in the late 70's. It was passed by the city inspectors!
I owned a 1925 Craftsman Bungalow with a hybrid system. I still have the original knife switch where 3 110/120 lines came into the house, but had been put into a newer 100 amp panel. The house was rife with original 1920's Knob & Tube, with later receptacles connected to post-WW2 Romex. I made friends with the city's Electrical Inspector, and over the next 10 years, put in a new Mast, Elect Meter a 200AMP panel in the 1700 ft2 home. I replaced every light fixture, every switch, and every outlet with up-to-code 12/2 or 12/3 Romex. The living room that originally had 4 outlets (one on the midpoint of each wall) now had 17 outlets so that there was an outlet mid, left, and right of any furniture placement, as it should be. In the kitchen, I put in separate circuits for the MW, DW, Disposal and additional kitchen circuits so that every other outlet was on a different circuit. The next owners had NO idea how much improved the electrical system was in that almost 100 year old home.
Here in North Dakota if you are adding any electrical devices to a circuit that is using knob and tube all of it must be replaced back to the source for that circuit
We renovated my great grandfather’s house from 1928 and made it modern. The wiring was done back the 50s by my great great uncle and he did a good job but since we gutted it we went ahead and rewired the whole house with new plugs, wire and box.
I had an 1890 house with original wiring. I payed a guy $1500 to install the breaker box and rewired the house myself for under $200. It's not the easiest job if you have a two story house but you save a lot of money.
I have seen the "hybrid " systems a lot when I used to go into homes for a previous job. I am not an electrician but I have worked on remodeling homes before and worked closely with the electrician during remodeling. Electrical isn't something to mess around with. I have seen electrical fires and the results of them. Electrical and plumbing is something that bothers me with older homes when looking to buy. Like I currently am.
I own a number of old rental homes that all seem to have a lot of old knob and tube. I’ve found that much of the issues with the remaining wiring seem to occur in the boxes from 100 years of pulling switches and receptacles in and out of the boxes which damages the insulation. I’ve also encountered a great deal of signs of resistance heating at junctions where they twisted and sealed wires without wire nuts. In the winter, people use electric heaters and the wire warms and cools as the heater cycles. This expansion translates to the twisted junction and the wire heats where the contract between the wires is loose. Wire nuts properly applied seems to fix the issue. You can also use arc fault breakers if the box is updated. I’ve found that with the old 60 amp panels, people often use 20 amp fuses on 14g wire and then with only 4 runs to the box, the wire actually gets hot to touch when so many circuits are utilized at the same time. The old wire always seems to look good in the walls though as it’s never moved and mice don’t seem to eat the old stuff. They’ll eat the Romex and leave the old hemp wound wire alone. At least with a new panel and junction boxes, the 4 runs can be divided into many more putting far less load on individual circuits.
Arc Fault Interrupter breaker will find ground leakage caused by overstuffed box (GFCI in small box by previous owner). There the hot wire with crumbling insulation was intermittently touching the grounded box. Grounds were provided by a separate wire (1953 house). AFI highly recommended for all old branch circuits, not only for bedroom sockets as required by code.
My house is from 1923 and it's a combination of Romex(in the basement), the asbestos wrapped vinyl wiring(40's/50's stuff) and a little bit of Knob & Tube wiring. The first floor was Knob & Tube at one time but was updated sometime in the 40's or early 50's when the attic was finished but at the same time some Knob & Tube was left in place. Surprisingly the Knob & Tube wiring is still in really good condition.
Yeah, that type of setup is actually really common for old homes in my area.
The common fibrous romex for home use did not use asbestos, it was quality bleached, often mercerized cotton with a high--dielectric varnish. Asbestos wiring was reserved for larger currents/wires in commercial and retail (think theatres). Asbestos doesn't "dry rot" but very old cotton does, especially at bend points where it starts to fail along with the brittle varnish.
@@EverydayHomeRepairs I think it's quite common in most areas in the US, even I have some in service K&T and romex and one armored wired cable for the stove, and when I was looking at the house, it still had a FPE circuit breaker that I had replaced on the seller's dime. Since I had K&T, several outlets in the kitchen, living room and original bedroom had to be swapped for GFCI, even though they had newer grounded outlets, but as you know, K&T can't be safely grounded, if grounded at all, hence why it's often required to be removed or taken out of service when getting insurance.
Old houses scare me. Everything about them is so creepy.
@@ytsux9259 I can see that, but it depends on the house, and its condition. My house does not creep me out at all, even though it was initially from 1908, with an addition in 1985.
when you were talking about the old wire entering the handy box, yes they always must have box connectors, but one other thing is they must an outer jacket as an insulator extended entirely thru the connector. There was a piece of it, it's call "Loom" visible at the top entry KnockOut to the box in your photo, but it was installed correctly either.
Another issue with old wiring is that it was fairly common for the switches to be on the neutral side. This is a huge safety risk as it meant doing something like changing a broken light bulb could result in a shock, even when the lights are turned off. There's still line voltage going to the lights, they just don't have a path to ground.
@@ccox7198 Very sure. My parent's own an ~1870's home, wired in the 20's. Many of the switches were on the neutral (Others had already been rewired). I read into it on some electricians forums and a lot of them also reported seeing the same in older homes.
@@TheSeanUhTron Ya something that old isn't even guaranteed to be branch circuits. A light might pull hot from set of wires and neutral from another.
I have a hybrid system I am working on now...no K & T, but a lot of two conductor with two prong outlets. I ran 14 gauge green insulated single conductor and fished it to the box in question, bonded to ground and installed three prong outlets. They all test properly.
Wow looks like you have your work cut out for you. Not just with electric. Like your videos. Very well presented and explained.
Thanks Robert, this home needs some love for sure.
My sister had a house with knob-and-tube, and a breaker panel (from the 1950s or 1960s, maybe?) that replaced the old fuse box. It looked a lot like what is seen in this video, but the switches were push-button and they kept the smoke inside. But that breaker panel was pretty old, too - it had fabric-sheathed cable that ran to junction boxes in the basement where it spliced to the knob-and-tube. I couldn't find the amp markings on the breakers (but I didn't try that hard - I wasn't doing any wiring at the panel). What I could see of the knob-and-tube in the basement and attic appeared to be in good shape (and the insulators were ceramic/glass!)
I think the panel was Zinsco or Challenger - whatever brand it was, I later learned was a type of panel to avoid/replace.
Other than a breaker panel, this is so similar to my grandmother's house. Its a hybrid of Romex, asbestos insulated, aluminum, and knob and tube. You can see the age of an addition or repair by the wiring. There is also a couple of mercury switches and an old rotary switch. The entire house is on 2 30A fuses. And of course, its ungrounded. Its time for a total update.
Yep, not a small job but basement and attic access will go a long way.
Those silent mercury switches will last a lifetime and beyond under normal use.
If it is insulated with asbestos (i. e. almost guaranteed lung cancer if you mess with it) you have a job ahead of you that cannot be done yourself. All of the asbestos insulation where you are going to re-wire must be removed by a special contractor (of which your area MIGHT have one or two, even Grand Rapids, MI only seems to have three) and it will cost thousands of dollars. If you have the whole house remediated the cost is in the tens of thousands of dollars (and an N95 mask won't protect you). I feel sorry for your grandmother. Appropriate officials here in Michigan told me that if you don't mess with the asbestos it likely won't hurt you but once you disturb it you run the HIGH risk of lung cancer.
Wire wears out over time and becomes DANGERIOUS..Switch points become pitted and dirty,this results in arcing.burns like a welder arc..heats the wires and causes fires..You are correct.updating breakers does not fix the problem, replace it all.Also,old systems waste power.Takes more power to get through old worn out wires than new wires.conducitivity goes down with age...youre right again..
@Oliver Taylor: "Also,old systems waste power.Takes more power to get through old worn out wires than new wires.conducitivity goes down with age".
The conductivity of a specific copper wire does not change with age (at least for the timescales we're talking about here). Many older homes are wired with smaller conductors than modern life demands, and those should be replaced. To the extent that "old systems waste power", the waste happens by pushing current through conductors that are too small. The system wasted just as much power when it was installed as it does today. It is the size of the conductors that matter, not their age.
Great video! My parents old house (built in 1915) was knob and tube - they did update the wiring back in the 1980s, and it was NOT cheap!
When factoring in inflation, a full rewire would be cheaper today than in the late 70s to mid 80s. Copper was undergoing massive speculation as many mines are in countries with great political turmoil. That was the period when Aluminum wiring was in vogue.
@@xavariusquest4603 Oh yeah, forgot about that. The bad old days of AL wiring!
I work for a company that remediates knob and tube. We perform complete removal of it. I've seen everything.. you explained it really well. Hybrid spliced system.
That pullswitch looked like a lot more than 50 or 60 years old.
I bought a nice old house. The fuse box was wood, set in the bathroom wall over the tub with some asbestos paper lining and 3 Edison base fuses in open holders. Had to rewire before I'd sleep there.
The old federal pacific panels are far more dangerous than the knob and tube wiring.
You can weld with those breakers 😳
My house had 3 FPE panels from 1959 when I bought it. The main panel had a 20A circuit for the backyard patio electricity. I was hanging up some PRC string lights, and when I plugged them in, they lit up dimly for a couple of seconds and shut back off. I quickly realized the 1959 FPE panel (that had been outside, in the elements for 53 years) was tripping it's 20A breaker as designed. I found one of the light sockets had it's center conductor folded over into the threads - a direct short.
I've since read that some companies made FPE compatible breakers that actually worked in later years, but this one sure looked like it came from the 50s.
@@barry8215 I get the joke🙂
I still see the push button style breakers in homes today. Scares the hell out of me.
@@brianp6965 Should have immediately tripped and not illuminated at all with a direct short like that.
As a licensed electrician, I have seen so many instances of a well meaning homeowner attempting to "improve" the electrical system, and compromising the integrity to the point where I would not sleep in the house. They take a basically safe but inadequate electric system and "improve it" to the point where it is now dangerous. They don't do it on purpose, but through lack of knowledge and or experience they cannot comply with all of the particulars of the NEC. There may be a dozen requirements of the NEC for the installation of just one outlet. I highly recommend that before someone attempts to do their own wiring to buy a GOOD book and follow the instructions completely. Then have someone competent check out their work, and I don't mean uncle Fred. who drove a milk truck.
Hey Hank, thanks for the feedback. What book do you recommend? I like the Black + Decker books myself.
I can't recommend a good do-it-yourself book because I have been taking CE classes for 40 years, and we use the NEC. This book will not be understood by laymen, because it uses terms which are particular to the trade.
@Toren1156 I would probably not feel comfortable spending time in your residence, if you try to do your own electrical work based on what you learned on the internet. Do you know what size wire to use in all circumstances. do you know how much wire must be left in junction boxes? How about how many wires of each size can go into each different box? I have spent hundreds of hours in classroom settings and I still have to look up things in the code book as does every other responsible electrician. I'm sure I could look at a house wired by a welder and find at least a hundred different violations!
@Toren1156 I disagree.
While the basic principals can be learned pretty easily, doing things right is a different story.
I am not an electrician, but I know enough to know what I don't know. I've also pulled my share of wire, and wired more than enough receptacles and lights over they years on side jobs with my best friend who is a licensed master electrician.
I can also tell you, knowing how to do something, and actually doing it are two completely different things.
Try twisting 6 12ga wires together a few times then come back and tell me again how easy it is.
Especially when you are laying across joists in an attic in July.
Major electrical work like knob & tube conversion will require permits and inspections in most jurisdictions if a DIY'er thinks they are up for the job. There will always be some that will bypass the permit process since they can buy all the components at their big box store. I guess you could buy some books and watch some videos to learn to do your own surgery on yourself or a loved one, but I'll trust my surgeries to a qualified doctor.
I hope when you find homes like this you do a full wiring update. As you said it is expensive and can take some time, but if you do it right, it can also be a great time to update the house, like maybe open it up, and give it a fresh new look.
you can also often save money by stripping the house to the studs and replacing EVERYTHING.
@@kenbrown2808 When was the last time you got estimates to gut and install a new electric panel, rewire, replace all switches, outlets, and lights insulate, drywall, float, and paint.
I completely agree and if we renovate this home we would do a complete rewire. I think a lot of the challenge is with these homes even renovated they are $100K - $125K or so for the sale price so the vast majority of flippers would not do a full rewire. Not advocating for that approach but that is the truth of what I see in our area.
@@krazyj1957 let me give you a hint: the rule of thumb for estimating a remodel is to take the estimate for doing a new house and triple it.
@@EverydayHomeRepairs flippers are absolutely terrible about adding price without adding value.
My sister and Bro in-law bought a house built in the 60s. I had gone and spent a week of my vacation with them. I usually travel with my tools. I was in the unfinished part of the basement looking at everything. Porcelain lamp sockets with pull strings. The previous owner had installed socket adapters for outlets. One of them flickered and started smoking when I pulled the string. I had found 2 fluorescent fixtures mounted with pig tails on them plugged into the socket adapters. I put a proper switch on the wall with romex to the fluorescent fixtures properly mounted. I took down the porcelain lamp holders and was able to put proper outlets in their place. I didn’t want them to make the mistake of turning on that light and possibly burning the house down.
Wow, I love that old pull string switch. I have had the chance to upgrade a few old houses wiring.
I like keeping the old components even kept some of the pristine old cloth wiring as a keepsake.
Me too. I kept some knob and tube stuff but never came across that old pull switch. Very cool!
@@WeatherNut27 I ran across some unused porcelain knobs for knob and tube wiring in the early 90's cleaning out a garage for my father while he was moving from one house to another. I plucked them out and saved them but I moved to another house about the same time and I don't know what happened to them during the move.
We are renovating an 1860s cape in Kittery, Maine. Lots of knob and tube, but the best find was an entire room wired with gauge SPEAKER wire. Copper stranded wire in a see-through pink "insulation".
Got to love old shipyard (Portsmouth Naval Shipyard) workers fixing up their homes!
Very good video particularly for first time homeowners. Personally I have also seen this style wiring in home built in the 1910s , 1920s and 1930s, when many homes across America were wired the first time and family's could not contain the excitement of turning on the first electric light bulb rather than lighting the gas or oil lantern. While knob and tube systems were cutting edge technology at the time, age, deterioration and unsafe modifications are almost guaranteed to be lurking behind walls, in basements, crawl spaces and attics. Combine that with your typical 60 amp service, some only had 30 amperes at 120 volts with just a couple circuits and the recipe for overloading and fires are ever present.
Amen. Got knob n tube? Replace it all
My grandmother didn't have electricity until the early 1940's. She did have gas lanterns but no electric service. One of my uncles bought a house in the 1980's, it still had the gas lanterns and piping in working condition in an upstairs apartment. He tore that out right away due to concerns that it might start to leak. The whole building had electric service run in it and appeared to have had it for at least 35-40 years at the time.
When I was about 13 a neighbor I liked asked me to see if I could fix the floor outlet in her living room. I grabbed my volt meter and a flashlight and climbed into the crawl space. There I found that the wires had be up on knobs, but the bakelite knobs had failed (probably rodents) and that the wire insulation had been rubber, paper and then cloth, but only a few bits of the rubber remained (probably insects & rodents). The hot wire to that outlet was broken off (metal fatigue) and ended in a rat that was beginning to swell up... I got out of there when I determined that hot wires were just dangling all over. Then I found out the house did not have breakers and the wires in the fuse box were not much better than the ones in the crawl space. I told her to call an electrician and an exterminator and not to sleep in the house until the new electric system is inspected. The electrician told her I saved her life. There was not one piece of that system that was up to code. Not the meter, not the weather head, not the wires to the pole and not even the transformer on the pole was acceptable any more. Her homeowners insurance took a $27k hit, but every wire, switch and outlet was replaced, a modern meter was installed along with a modern breaker box. Everything was fixed except that floor outlet. It was too small for a grounding outlet and moving it was out of the question.
I'm surprised that insurance would pay for that upgrade.
Me too 🤔
Code upgrade coverage is wise to get on older homes when it's offered. It's very likely their neighbor had been paying extra for it for many years before needing to use it.
The hot wire ended in a hot rat. Yikes!
You can make an insurance claim to update your old electrical? 🤔
After a home buying pre-inspection and paying 2 electricians to overhaul the wiring (over a decade apart) I came across a store bought knob and tube to BX wiring adapter that was hot in a dark corner of my 1900 built house. It was for old type outlets on the first floor! Anybody doing as good inspection would have seen those old two prong outlets and either pulled the cover plate or gone down to the basement and looked for the wiring.
Did a lot of replacing of knob & tube in my first home. Got to know it well.
👍🏻 I wouldn't trust that old wiring at all. I'd also sweep a broom across areas I plan to work to get rid of some of those cobwebs. Good luck with that job!
The funny part is I already did a round 1 with a broom 😂 this basement had more dead spiders than I have ever seen. Right by a corn field.
I'm so glad I don't have K&T wiring.... that wiring example is so scary to watch... a bad 3-way circuit.... I'm glad you were able to show that... now people will be more aware, at least I hope...
Thank you for the video. As a home inspector I see many homes with the partial electrical upgrade you describe. Sometimes the upgrade is only the installation of a new panel and installing GFCI receptacles in a kitchen and bathroom. Other times the upgrade includes new receptacles, but without updating the wiring. If a buyer does not have the property inspected they should have the electrical system inspected before they move in or rent out the property. They would also need to be prepared to upgrade the electrical system in terms of budget and time. As you said, the time and cost of properly upgrading an electrical system to current safety standards can be expensive.
Knob & tube wiring was a good system when first installed, then people started adding other circuits to the system and 9 out of 10 times it was not done properly and the hazards started. After that I referred to knob & tube as knob & slob.
i agree, if untouched it is fine, as in this case, the knob and tube was not installed properly into the box
Knob and slob..... good one😊 your right, 90+ years ago, knob and tube was state of the art technology and was very safe for it's time, especially compared to the gas and oil lights it replaced. Most of the problems begin due to one thing. Human error. Putting 100 watt light bulb in ceiling and cooking the wiring into position. Burying into insulation especially attics. Inserting 30 amp fuses to prevent overload from blowing fuse and inconvenience. Bypassing fuse with penny or lining with aluminum foil. Adding more circuits to the existing wiring by means of weak and or exposed, unsafe splices, and other unapproved means. Finding an old house where the original wiring is left untarnished after nearly a century, is like finding a needle in a haystack.
@@Sparky-ww5rei have actually found wiring that was untouched, usually it has a 30 amp fuse in it, but it came out fine. Usually these wiring systems are okay, but lots of people think old always means bad. how I look at it is to evaluate it, look it over, if it is fine don't touch it, if it needs to be replaced. replace it, if it needs to be fixed, fix it. i hate it when people say all of it is bad just because of what it is.
@@gtb81. Unfortunately, many home insurance companies are refusing to write a home insurance policy of knob & tube are present in the home. Insurance companies are forcing conversion more than the electrical authorities are.
@@chrisgraham2904 yeah, it is usually down to making more money, if you are not willing to comply and pay to have the house gutted in order to remove it, you have to pay lots of money to insure it. it would be much more advantageous to have an electrician evaluate it, some do but not many. if i understand it correctly. usually knob and tube is not beyond repair if it isn't fine already. i actually have only seen one house with knob and tube that actually needed the rewire.
My 1917 home has some of that system and I am opening walls to replace and correct those problems.
This video takes me back to a house we bought in '86 but built in 1913. It knob and tube in the attic, some early romex style and then a sprinkling of romex. Electrical panel had the screw in fuses. I found on socket with a penny in the bottom of itThere were even the push button light switches. I saved some of those old antique items. It was only a 60a service. Had a 100a service brought to the house and a licensed electrician install a new panel. After that I did all the work and it passed inspection. Oh there was even some bx.
The penny in a socket bit -- so dangerous! My father found that in the fuse box of a house he owned -- and the wiring was covered with cloth that just disintegrated in your fingers when you tried to work with it. I am glad that fuse boxes are just about a thing of the past.
No doubt, I been up in attic’s making plumbing repairs and come across the nob/tube that crap is scary..I been trying to be more aware. And try and learn more about it because it’s never going to hurt.
I’ve been in electrical for 25 years, I absolutely hate knob and tube. For its time it was great, one light and maybe 2 plugs at best in each room. The problem is that homeowners hire someone that is NOT licensed or has a clue as to how to handle that stuff. They just make open joints in the attic and crawlspace, and call it good. I have seen so many very dangerous things that people do with electrical, and I know it’s literally a miracle those places didn’t burn down.
Good advice.
Also be careful of home modifications. Had framers stretch and pinch old wiring on my house when they were framing.
I wasn't very happy. Glad i cought it. They got fired after a couple bad mistakes.
We used chair rail to add new boxes to old houses and cut power to any knob & tube wiring so everything is now grounded.
The smoking/arcing were not really caused by the knob and tube...it was the old switch. Common electrical practice calls for replacement of such old switches and outlets. When I bought my first home, built in 1913 and bought by me in 1979, my friend who was a veteran commercial electrician, while updating the system with breakers and romex, assured me that knob and tube is just fine when used for lights just not for high-amp-draw appliances so he didn't bother with replacing the knob and tube in the attic that powered only ceiling lights. The rest of the home was done with modern wiring and hardware including an even larger breaker box before I sold the house. The house is still standing and the folks I sold it to have had no problems with the electrical system.
K and t wiring was safer because the wires are not running next to each other like common wiring today. The problem now is that the insulation is brittle due to age.
Don’t expect home inspectors to find everything either. They are good at general things but often miss some of the finer details like the hybrid electrical he talks about here. I have a rental property 3 family that is this hybrid but mostly updated to Romex but still some of K&T still on the upper floors due to the complications of running all new wire up 3 floors. This video shows some serious K&T in need of updating though and with all that basement access it’s a wonder why it hasn’t been more updated hybrid style at minimum
I agree LH and I think a lot of home buyer assume with a home inspection anything that could cost them money in the future will be picked up by the inspector. From my experience that is simply not the case.
@@EverydayHomeRepairs My friends just bought a house 2 months ago that passed 2 inspections: 1 before and 1 after sale. So far both ACs have died, the water heater was replaced (by someone who left the old energized, stripped wiring HANGING one foot from the dryer), the solar power on the roof doesn't work, and when they were inspecting the AC after the first one died, the AC guy was able to slide the outside heat exchanger by a couple of inches and see sparks from where the electrical service entered the unit. And keep in mind this is Florida, where that AC should have been sitting on a concrete pad and bolted to the ground. That's just what I can remember off the top of my head, too.
PS - If you want a county inspector to spot all the issues with your remodel, try insulting his mother. ;)
In my first home, they missed a BIG one. It had a smoke detector in the small hallway by the kitchen, bathroom and backdoor. It was an odd place in reflection. It became that time of the year to change batteries, but when I pulled the smoke detector down I was greeted by old fire damage that had been "fixed: in the dumbest way possible. The old knob and tube wire running inside the wall that had caught fire was fixed with wire nuts and electrical tape (but no electrical box) and a smoke detector put over it. I was not happy. I rewired the entire house after that. It was just to scary not to.
Home inspectors are not required to open anything during a home inspection. Most of their assessments are from visual inspection only of what is easily accessible. They are not certified electricians, plumbers, engineers or gas fitters. If your buying a heritage home and suspect knob & tube wiring, hire a separate certified electrician to assess the electrical.
@@chrisgraham2904 And home inspectors that find too much wrong, it pisses off the realtors and banks who quite using/recommending them. It's one of the industry's dirty little secrets.
3-way switch, too! The main violation here I see in the basement is the lack of a "No Smoking" sign.
100% Correct. Ours was built in 1932. We have a breaker panel on the north wall in the basement. One of the breakers is labeled "Aux Panel" that is a 4-socket Edison style fuse panel on the ground flor with 4 circuits that are still in service. We have a mix of 2 and 3 prong outlets, most of which don't test as having a ground and a mix of Romex and knob & tube. I hate it.
I grew up in a house with wiring like that. Cloth covered rubber insulated solid core. We had 2 switches like that too. The insulation preventing a shock was the wall paint someone had covered them with. When we scrapped off the wall paint, touching the switch from the side to trun it on gave a good shock. LoL. Another issue with the 1910 wiring was if you touched it, the insulation flaked off. Or somewhere inside the wall the wire strand itself broke. Pr both happened, the wire broke and at that point so did the insulation. We also had a fuze box in the basement with a circuit that was so bad there was a 1930s penny sitting in it. (We totally replaced that circuits wire back in the 70s.) Then there were the old switch types. Push button and external to the wall round bakelite switch boxes. We swapped a lot of those out.
I am in the process of rewiring a hybrid system with Knob and Tube installed for the lighting. In fact they had only ran a junction about 6 feet from the outdoor panel to the original fuse box. I ripped the outdoor panel off and put in a 200A shutoff and then installed a 200A service panel inside below where the original fuse box went. I ran 3/0 copper from the shutoff to the panel in conduit it that says anything BTW. Shortened up the jumpers to the original system and then put all the really old lines on to AFCI/GFCI breakers mainly because that is what I will use for wet locations and bedrooms so I figured why not get them in use and have a little better protection. From there I am knocking a hole near the ceiling and then running the wires down to the box location. It uses more wire but with 10 foot ceilings I am not worried about later on dropping them down and making things look good again. I went from a 100 amp panel that they installed outside and only had about 10 circuits ran. I already have more than that and haven't hooked up the 3 office circuits or started on the 2 living room circuits let alone the bathroom and upstairs. Plus I plan to remodel the kitchen and upgrade all that too.
The other advantage of dropping the ceiling is that I am planning to install a master bathroom and bedroom in the upstairs so it will be really easy to run the plumbing along the ceiling as well. While I am doing the update I am also taking the time to run low voltage lines for DataComm throughout the house and ran an umbilical consisting of a power line, 4 rg6 lines, 4 cat6 ethernet lines, and 2 OM3 LC to LC fiber optic lines to a single demarcation point on the outside of the house.
After getting to town and unloading all the stuff the first thing I had to do was cap a bunch of broken water lines and then replaced all the lines with PEX. Dug a new trench and dropped in 3/4 with insulation along the whole length to protect the line since I was barely able to get 18 inch depth before hitting rock in some areas plus I figured it would also protect the line from rocks. Brought it in to a manifold block and then ran lines to each fixture. My father had never worked with PEX and was dumbfounded that once the trench was dug we replaced all the supply in a couple hours.
Now it's roof time and I am in the middle of the tear off doing it all by myself. And it has 4 roofs on the house, two are cedar shake and two are asphalt... I have 65 sheets of material to sheathe the roof and then the ice and water barrier as well as the synthetic underlayment. Shingles are a nice 5 tab or architectural ones that are an antique silver instead of the brown ones that are currently on the roof.
I was trying to find a video like this one my home is older and has been updated electrically except for one room all the wires were black not color coded😔 thanks for this video it was very helpful
The fact that a switch that old still contained all that smoke is a testament to how well built things were made back in the day. You never see modern switches smoking because they don't pre-charge them with smoke anymore. Sad.
I used to rent a duplex built around 1903 or 1904 and it had knob and tube wiring but was disconnected and the previos owner rewired the house and I was amazed at how knob & tube worked back then
I am an electrical engineering student and this is my number one most reasons why I am getting this degree...
That hybrid system is scary!! Several years ago when I lived in Pontiac Michigan, a neighbor's house caught fire on a cold November night. I just happened to get home from the grocery store when I saw flames coming from the attic vent, when I banged on their door telling them to get out now the house is on fire. The couple who lived there tell me it passed inspection there was a new electrical panel installed not that long ago, and they were running an electric fireplace while watching their evening program. An investigation showed the fire had started at a splice in the attic, with the knob and tube and romex. Two story wood wood framed house, built 1928.
Felt horrible for the neighbor's because they had just purchased the property that same summer.
Just because a home inspection shows everything in order, doesn't always catch every nook and craney
I upgraded my sister's 1911 house from knob and tube to Romex adding new circuts and and a breaker box. No old wiring remains. It was a lot of hours. My house was originally knob and tube with some upgrades. The 1929 knob and tube was done to a standard not seen today. In General the remaining knob and tube is better than new construction work done today. I have had to replace worn outlets and switches. I save the old cloth and rubber civered wire (the insulation falls off) for projects as the copper wire is high quality
I spoke with many electricians. Knob and tube has a bad reputation, the actual conductors were heavier and better copper than today's. Points of failure are the connections at fixtures and switches. The wires behind walls tend to be ok since they are not exposed. The knob and tube in a basement ceiling should always be replaced because is the easiest and if you accidentally break it could get electrocuted (your feet are literally grouded).
@@TheGonso35 Although the house didn't have any known knob and tube the 1910's or 1920's cloth covered wiring that was in one of my father's houses in the late 1980's appeared to be about 16 AWG. If it had been my house that wiring would likely had been immediately replaced (I did help him replace part of it and we did do complete circuit replacement and not splice into the 16 gauge, at the time 70 year old wiring).
interesting seeing wires that old and switch. we still have some 1950's versions of those switches still working fine still. though had one stop working and made the entire box live so the screws and the shocks were amusing figuring that one out but replaced it with no issues. Edit: forgot to mention this place is also a hybrid and its annoying af right now one of our neutral lines are so cooked that had to remove everything from that line so can no longer use it for most things except led lighting now, sadly landlord wants to do nothing with this place anymore so once something happens that's it its being sold and ripped down.
The old electrical system would worry me far less than the insect damage beginning at 5:40. Do those floor joists stand up to being poked with a screwdriver?
Wow what a junk old house.
Good eye. Looks like replacing the wiring will be a small piece of the bill to fix this place up
Yikes! Damn. That's going to be a lot more work than the electrical.
Very well done, hope you scared a few people into doing it the right way.
One issue that I think needs to be addressed is the cost to a low income family who are required to upgrade to the 2020 code with the high price of AFCI & GFCI circuits. One point if one is forced to utilize older circuits, then I believe the circuit should be protected with a AFCI/GFCI breaker, as they will detect wires in the walls arcing and open the circuit, also you don't need a equipment ground to protect a person from shocks in a two wire bonded circuit.
Mark Fisher. Well written. Low income would be renters? Unable to keep any property
in maintenance?
Which is why they are not required by the NEC to upgrade. The NEC is not retroactive if the electrical supply was complaint when installed then according the NEC it's still complaint. It's only when modifications happen that an older installation becomes non-compliant. Also, checking with the AHJ will save you tons of money in those matters.
The only reason I no longer will state a fuse is superior to a circuit breaker is because of the AFCI technology. So the idea of removing the fuse block and using the fuse box as a junction box to splice to modern wiring methods back to the panel is a good idea IF your original knob and tube circuits were not set up as a multi-wire circuit. In other words, each fused circuit must have a corresponding, dedicated neutral so that when extending these wires the neutral can land on the AFCI breaker. If you have a multi-wire arrangement (larger pre-war homes used this) or you have a smaller home that might have used a "super neutral" (an oversized neutral shared by multiple circuits that once were all connected to a 30A 110V service) then the AFCI cannot be married to the old knob and tube.
I run into SO many homes that have the panel cobbled into cloth groundless, or knob and tube… it is always a better idea to actually replace the circuits all the way… an alternative is install arc fault breakers… the ones that will not stay energized MUST be replaced…
That switch style is much newer than most knob and tube, which usually had push buttons or rotary snap switches. The real problem was the light fixtures, where the wires came through a flat board between the joists on each of two 45 degree holes right next to and opposite each other. The wires would be cased with loom but the ends would simply sit under the fixture cradle, without a box. Heat from the light would destroy the insulation which just crumbles when you work with it. I've done a lot of knob and tube work over the years.
Wish I saw this video a couple months ago!! Nailed it.
Great video! The issues you bring up are good. Original knob and tube and be safe, but tying it into any other system can be dangerous. The original wire insulation was fabric, cotton I believe, and it can turn to dust over the years. So they depended on the ceramic knobs and tubes for insulation. The safe way to tie it into a box is to SOLDER on modern wire to the knob and tube supported wires, and then bring those modern wires into the box. You don't want fabric insulated wires to be coming through a metal box.
Next problem is when people insulate around knob and tube. Bad plan!!! That wiring was never designed to be surrounded with blow in foam or fiberglass insulation. If you're going to insulate, replace all of the old wiring and fixtures with new equipment that is safe to be up against insulation.
A lot of houses must have burned down then from the wires overheating in the Attic due to the fiberglass insulation around them over the decades that has been routinely done.
@@frankpaya690 That has happened, but it takes 2 things to cause a fire. First, the extra insulation. Second, overloading the circuits, by putting in the wrong size fuses. The original circuits would have had at most a 15A fuse, sometimes lower, so the wires would never overheat.
Hybrid situation here with some cables still in use BUT 1974 construction, changed the stove wire but still have some original blue gained cable in the wall hooked to junction boxes going to the more modern installation.
One of those investments that can really seal a deal on selling a home I would imagine. Showing the full electrical overhaul to safe grounded is worth the peace of mind, especially if you want to keep an older home around.
Why is there a protogen talking about old home wiring systems
@@obeseperson nothing to see here move along
Old BX cable is a serious safety issue, and is a frequent source of fire here in Massachusetts. BX cable is a metal sheath wrapped around two or more conductors. BX was standard practice from the 1920s until the 1940s, when it was replaced by first-generation Romex cable.
The issue with old BX cable is that insulation of the conductors inside the shield deteriorates and becomes brittle and fragile with age. Once that happens, then ANY movement of the cable can cause that degraded insulation to break off and expose the conductors to the sheath and to each other.
The typical fire scenario is that a homeowner or even licensed electrician replaces a bathroom ceiling light fixture with a new box and exhaust fan. The existing fixture has several BX runs to other locations on the same branch and a BX run to a nearby switch. While replacing the box, all of those BX runs are moved a little while doing the work. Each run often has a bend where it goes down into a wall cavity, so when the BX is moved, the area near the bend moves a bit while the bend stays fixed. The work is done, everything is buttoned up, and the new fan works fine. A day or so later, a fire starts in one of those BX runs, where the movement of the cable caused the insulation to break off the conductors.
The firefighters I know tell me that old BX is more dangerous in my Massachusetts city than knob and tube -- if nothing else because most knob and tube has been removed, while too many homeowners see BX and assume that everything is fine.
Old BX should not be a problem by itself. BX is like modern MCAP or armored Cable in regards to grounding. I understand that the cloth can be flammable. But any short should blow a fuse or trip a breaker. The steel jacket should contain the spark and should help prevent a fire by denying it oxygen. I’ve seen a lot of BX that is in a sorry state. But I’ve never seen a fire outside of a box that resulted from BX. The biggest issue I’ve seen is when the cloth breaks down were the conductors enter the box.
Hey lad great wisdom and tank ya for taking the time from your day to do so. It is not falling on deaf ears
Happy to help. Thanks!
My house had "updated" electric that former owners had paid an electrician thousands to do and all he did was replace the panel with a used panel at that So have have spent the better part of a year running all new wirs and patching many many holes I had to make to do it.
As a master electrician for over 34 years knob and tube is antiquated but the old bx cable is even more oa nigh
Yep. My stepgrandfather lost his father in 1930 working in a crawl space to electrical wiring.
If you're going to talk electrical to any homeowner please do everyone a favor and stress the safety aspect. NEVER trust a breaker. You should be properly using an electrical meter to check and verify voltage as well as voltage removed before touching anything. Keep up the information but remember a lot of people may see your videos without using safety measures, PPE, and proper techniques then do as you have shown just to learn the hard way about electrical hazards and safety.
Yes a lot of peeps know just enough and are just daring enough to actually do a lot of stupid shit that is really dangerous .
And do not realize what they have done …………..
Electrical meters will lie to you with know and tube you should use a wiggy.
@@B_EIMON Never heard of that. Is a wiggy what I would call a volt-tick or a sniffer ? The little non-contact tester that chirps near voltage ?
@@jakesully5402 no those are not reliable especially with old knob and tube. A tick tracer is just a fast way to see if power is present, it's an idiot stick.A wiggy is a mechanical meter with two leads like a digital meter but a wiggy has a solenoid which creates a small load. It will tell you if you actually have a neutral present, a ground present, voltage etc. Digital meters have no solenoid so sometimes hot to neutral it may say 72v but you don't have anything 😉
@B E , good info but not the fact I said Saif electrical meter not specifically a digital one. Knob and tube with an old analog is good too but even if it's notn100% reliable it would be better than using your fingers and the casing of the switch to test if the voltage is still there or not. I've had too many times with scenarios like this that there was power being fed from more than the breaker.
I actually installed Knob and Tube in A Cabin i have. off course no power to it. just the looks cause its exposed. I have actually new Electrical hidden in the walls. But, any time you turn on switch and lights come on, it has that look of Old style. I have the Old Fashion plugs and and switches, even few old look lights. With Knob and tubes running to some of them. Kindof neat looking really. Im sure if i was to ever sell the place, It would be something i have to remove I think.
That looks like a three way switch, so it's not just on and off. When it's {off} in reality it's passing current to the other switch so it can work as well and vice versa, it looks that it was arching when it was feeding the other switch
Good point, thx 👍
I noticed that also. Good call.
That would be 2 way not 3 way.
@@davey6024 It is "called" a 3 way Switch
@@davey6024 the switch itself may be a double pole, but that application is called a three way.
I had that at 10Jefferson street Worcester, Mass. One breaker which should be a hint,
and the rest was K&T one night in the attic I saw the wires a dull red through the loom
which is a cloth covering the wire and going through the tube into a stud or joist.
I have an older cottage rental that had the meter and fuse box in the front porch that was enclosed to become part of the house. The tenants would have to leave their curtains open once a month to let the utility guy read the meter. I eventually sprang for a new meter and breaker panel outside the house, but the core wiring remains a hybrid of romex with knob and tubing.
Yeah, this is the reality for millions of home owners. Hard for most to afford and/or justify the cost for a full rewire.
I'm an electrician and I liked this video
That basement's right out of a horror movie, and I wanna go there so bad!
Just offhand, I think the NEC requires that where K&T is deactivated, that it must also be removed. At least the visible parts.
I think the term they use along the lines of "obviously disconnected" (cut short and taped off) to mean it's no longer energized. The point this video makes is some guys update stuff in the basement but the K&T is still active in other hidden parts of the house.
It does NOT but you can't modify it at all. It is not an approved method today but was approved when installed so it it allowed unless your local building dept. or electrical inspector has the right to require you need to replace it.
@@cgsound ... might be splitting hairs but building inspectors don't have special rights. They do have authority based on local govt rules. In some areas a rental home must be up to code, at least on any changes. An inspector might have the leeway to allow an older code to stand but I doubt modified K&T would pass, mostly because it's been modified. BTW, that switch shown in the video was likely not an approved installation in it's day because it's a metal box, which was not in use for K&T.
@@rupe53 Probably couldn’t get insured. Maybe an insurance agent would know.
@@rocketrider1405 ... most insurance companies wont bother to ask. OTOH, most banks require a building inspection on the home BEFORE a loan. IOW, it's a trick question where the insurance company figures you got the loan so you must have passed the inspection. Where insurance companies get interested in details is usually after the fact, when there's a claim involved. Oh, that's bogus, there's no permit or inspection for that work, etc.
Looks almost like my house when I bought it! Total electrical gut and new romex!
Nice, did you do it yourself?
@@EverydayHomeRepairs I did all the finish work, but had them run wires! Electrician about had a cow when we did inspection, bunch of open boxes and loose wires just handing around. Bought for approx $100k in 2016 and probably worth upwards of $250k (we also did plumbing, roof, new deck and total gut of basement and partial upstairs).
I believe your diagnosis may have missed that the switch is actually a 3-way switch. If the "Hot" was on the left side of the switch then on the right side were the two outs for a 3-way switch so when you"Turned It Off" you actually switched it from the bottom "Out" to the top one. You already observed that the top one was shorted to the box so that's where your short came from. Because the box was not grounded and the wood can conduct some current is why it didn't blow the fuse/breaker as it was a high resistance short just enough to cause heat within the switch. What say you?
You're correct that it's a 3 way switch but within it smoldering the contacts were aging and it did look super old so either way it was time to get a new one. But it did arc against the box. Without a ground you do become the ground. Ik back then they didn't have grounds to Switches so it wasn't obvious but they did carry electrical tape/Rubber tape as I used to hear the oldheads call it. Either way it was time for a brand new one.
Don't think wood conducts. No free electrons.
@John Naber I also think that it's a older 3 way switch where the travelers are actually the top 2 screws and the line / load terminal is on the bottom right, completely opposite of the newer 3 way's, but none the less it's definitely a 3 way switch.
@@crockpot5194 Thanks for reply. My home is a Victorian in Northern California of unknown age. When I purchased the home 30 years ago they could only say that it had been moved to this location 100 years ago and had no idea where it came from originally. There was a mish-mash of knob and tube and some home updates that were done completely wrong. Love your videos. Thanks,
John
@@joehead1294 Sure you're right, however there is almost always moisture, even in old wood, especially in a high humidity environment.
I used to see this ALL THE TIME in the old crow magnom caves back in my younger year's.
It is sad to still find these houses.
The smoke means that it's working. 🔥
I was expecting a Genie 🧞♂️ to pop out.
@@EverydayHomeRepairs ... when the factory installed smoke comes out that means the warranty is over!
When you let the smoke out it's dead...
@@EverydayHomeRepairs got 3 wishes?
@@acwright please don't catch fire, please don't catch fire, PLEASE DON'T CATCH FIRE!