The Club Fitting SECRET Ben Hogan And Lee Trevino Used For Legendary Ball Striking
Вставка
- Опубліковано 4 тра 2024
- Did Ben Hogan and Lee Trevino master this club fitting secret for legendary ball striking? Chad Dietz of Foreward Golf returns to reveal!
Find out more about Foreward Golf and Chad Dietz:
Website - www.foreward.golf/about-us
Instagram - / foreward.go. .
In our 2nd episode with Chad from Foreward Golf we look at the clubs and classic movements presented in the Ben Hogan golf swing and Lee Trevino golf swing, and how they correlated for these two elite ball strikers. What you may not have known is that these two legends played somewhat similarly designed golf clubs, specially designed irons that we estimate 99% of golfers don't use today. For our discussions we focus on lie angle and sole design. What's more, these irons created a pathway, and essentially incentivized these great swingers to move in a particular rotational fashion. With this in mind, perhaps this should have been one of the Ben Hogan Five Lessons? We thank you for watching and look forward to your feedback!
Milo’s Favorite Drill for PURE contact with irons: milolinesgolf.com/compress
START YOUR TRAINING TODAY!
Become an online member of the Milo Lines Golf Academy! milolinesgolf.com ...Included with membership: monthly swing analysis, invitation to monthly member-only webinars, entry to our community and Q&A, reduced online lesson rates with our team of coaches, and access to 100’s of exclusive how-to videos (covering my foundations, golf swing drills, practice plans, and strategies to help you improve your game). It’s the ultimate platform and roadmap for learning the concepts I lay out across this channel. It’s time you Learn to SWING LIKE AN ATHLETE™ for yourself! 📈
BOOK AN ONLINE OR IN-PERSON GOLF LESSON
milolinesgolf.com/schedule-le...
WATCH THESE NEXT!
• SECRET Downswing Move ...
• How To Move Your Right...
• Golf Lesson: BIGGER Ba...
MILO APPROVED TRAINING GEAR + DISCOUNTS!
milolinesgolf.com/training-gear/
FOLLOW MILO
Instagram: / milolines_golf
Facebook: / milolinesgolf
Twitter: / milolinesgolf
SUBSCRIBE TO MILO LINES GOLF
/ @milolinesgolf
Don’t forget to LEAVE A COMMENT with any and all questions, video tip requests, and thoughts. We do our best to respond to every comment and sincerely appreciate your feedback!
Learn to Swing Like an Athlete™ with Milo Lines Golf! My channel and coaching team will provide you with lessons and tips to help you play better at this game. Most of our content is filmed at the beautiful Superstition Mountain Golf & Country Club in Gold Canyon, Arizona.
#golf #golfswing #milolinesgolf - Спорт
What lie angle do you play in your irons??
🔑🌪 Make a Rotational swing just like HOGAN and TREVINO with Milo's 5 KEYS: milolinesgolf.com/5-keys-to-unlocking-a-rotational-golf-swing/
2° flat
John Erickson preaches 6° flat clubs. His explanation if brought to it's total extreme, more upright changes left right dispersion while more flat changes high low dispersion. In other words flatter clubs have straighter misses.
John erickson is the best !!
How much more bs can you come up with?
Agreed, I’m looking into flattening most of my clubs 2-3degrees
I lowered mine by 2-3°. Got me to a single handicap. I got onto this by watching John. Best thing I ever did.
Nice!
Love it. There are so many "boiler plate" prescriptions to fitting; I'm glad to see [were] still learning. Excellent content!
Thanks so much for following along!
Still so much to learn, thanks for watching.
beautiful scenery!
A great spot!
One other factor to look at is the average height of the golfers today vs golfers of yesterday. Shorter people (w/hands closer to ground) need a flatter club. John Rahm 6'2". . .. Tiger Woods 6' 1", Lee Trevino 5'7", Ben Hogan 5'8" But that said, at 5'10" with long arms, I have always favored flat lie clubs. I think this video makes a great point that few pros ever explore. One other that understands this is John Erickson at Advanced Ball Striking.
Height and body dimensions is definitely a factor.
Everything matters, thanks for watching!
But there are tall players that have very long arms and their hands are just as close to the ground as shorter players with average length arms
The amateur most often attempts to accelerate the club with active force from the hands and arms. This action forces the handle up and toe down. Elite strikers tow the club head through and generally do fit into clubs that are flatter than their physical counterparts in the amateur world.
Love the fitting technique that Chad put together. Went trough the remote fitting a few weeks ago and it was eye opening for sure. My JPX 923 Forged irons were close to the prescription that he put together after the fitting. FG fitting prescription: Lighter shaft 80 gram with mid kick ( Steel fiber 80i), stiff flex with soft step, mid bounce soul, 3/4 inch longer shafts, mid size grips, overall lighter swing weight, 2 degrees flat. There were 24 clubs in the fitting process, 3 clubs per swing parameter.
Definitely a great process!
Stoked you like it!
@@ForewardGolf Going to have you guys make the 7 iron for me and try it out.
This is a very good video. Well done Milo. 🇨🇦💝🇺🇸👍
Thanks Gerry!
This guy is worth listening to
Yes he knows
This is fascinating! I'm currently going down the rabbit hole with equipment in the more I learn the more I realize it's hard to find good information. Not sure if you've done a video on this yet I'm currently learning about the balance point in the clubs in finding that to be huge! As a left hand left side dominant golfer who plays right-handed my lead side dominates a lot of the action and for me finding the balance point on the golf club is tremendous! So far counterbalance clubs are high balance point clubs in shafts are the only things that are working that actually allow me to load and unload the club. I'm starting to believe that most golfers swing flaws are actually more about their equipment because they're making micro compensations and subconscious compensations throughout their swing because the equipment doesn't fit them
Interesting stuff. I feel like the spinner balls (and shorter length courses) were a huge factor in promoting swings that would have 'tighter' dispersions etc, as opposed to today's lower spin power game. Interesting that flat lie angles could be a tool used to help achieve that kinda swing. That's quite different to today's approach of fitting clubs to a poor swing!
Lot of guys today using lots of vertical force to maximise distance ... would this mean trend towards more upright lie angles?
This it! Been thinking about doing this to my irons and now I’m going to. Hate the ball going left. Working on this rotary swing more every day. Want to fade everything!
It is worth exploring for sure
Test everything!
Interesting. The best golf I have ever played were with Ping Eye 2 orange dots. (2 degrees flat). I really love my current set Cleveland Hibore. I'm not sure if I can get these bent flatter.
Have you ever talked to John Erickson or Bradley Hughes? It seems like you have some things in common on the swing. They are advocators of flat clubs, up to 6 degrees.
Good luck James, your swing is excellent. One shot at a time my friend ❤
James?
The moment of impact 🎉
Theirs was pretty good!
Flatter lie angles is the best kept secret in golf. Upright lies twist more left to right (horizontal dispersion), flat lie angles twist more up and down (vertical dispersion)
But remember Hogans clubs were not only flat, they were HEAVY and had super stiff shafts
Super interesting. I tend to over draw. My grip needs work, but i feel like 2 degrees might change my game a bit.
Could, I would certainly reach out to Chad or an expert fitter before making changes.
Damn...Henry has a beautiful swing!!!
=)
My iron shots consistently go straight then draw at the end. Was told my irons lie was a bit too upright and need to flatten out. Is that right? And how much to flatten?
More likely a club path issue if it's starting straight.
Definitely reminds me of John Erickson. Milo, if you play a super flat iron, what happens when you hit hybrids. Fairway woods. Driver? Seems like it would screw you up ?
Woods are definitely more limited with lie angle, as we continue to search for where good golf lives this will be a step in the process!
I just changed all my Lie angles on my irons and wedges to 6 degre flat , wedges felt a bit funky. but my normal set up was 3 degre flat and with that i cant fade a single one of my irons ,. But on the range Yesterday there was some fade with the 6 flat. Im playing a round today cant wait to se how the irons preform 🌞
Keep us posted on your results!
I like the change so far but the wedges may be over done so 6 flat is a bit to much . I will play with it some more to be sure , but i did not end up with less curve on my draws , so i have ben to the range in order to change my release so that the face dont Roll over but looks more back at me , and that helps , now im hitting a Cut . I for sure feel i need to rotate with this setup chest more open , and keep the shaft on plane or a bit higher not to dump it under like i tend to do .
Flatter lies reduce the directional miss when face angle is off.
Eg open face goes less right, the ball just smidge higher.
Upright lies magnify the face discrepancy and make you miss more left or right.
This makes no sense
What do u suggest for a 12 handicap golfer regarding lie angles? -2,3,4 thanks
Totally depends on the player, I would suggest connecting with a reputable fitter, or Chad and Foreward Golf to get you on the right path.
Man I love to golf.....
what a game!
How do you manage lie angles in your woods and driver Milo?
Not as important in driver as there isn’t much loft. I play shorter fwy woods than standard
My custom fit Ping irons are so flat they are off Ping’s chart. They gave me orange lie angles, but they are 3 degrees flatter than that. 🤷♂️👍
Couple questions: (1) if flat lie angles help, should a golfer seek a driver with as flat a lie angle as possible? (2) Is it a rule of thumb that softer iron shafts have more "droop" than stiff ones and therefore should be a bit longer?
Often times yes however lower lofted clubs with ball on a tee are less affected by different lie angles
And yes softer shafts generally droop more
It's funny this video came out because recently I hit an exact replica of Hogan's 7 iron. It was an old club from the 70's I think. It was exactly 4.5 degrees flat from standard. I know this because we measured it. I didn't hit a single ball left (right handed player) and I hit it about 20 times. Every shot started off a fraction right of my intended start line, where as before everything started out just left of my intended start line. My clubs are now 3.5 degrees flat from standard even though I'm a shorter person. Now I don't start the ball left anymore, unless I pull one left.
Question for Messrs Lines and Dietz: This flat lie concept seems to be a good solution for someone who creates and maintains a deep hip angle and steep shoulder tilt through impact. What about the normal golfer who cannot get into those positions?
the ideal fitting will certainly depend on the player as Chad states, the "prescription"
@@MiloLinesGolf I got fitted at a local shop, but it was super basic and there was no in depth process. Can you please recommend a top notch facility?
2’ flat me.
Not so much in Trevino’s day but im hogans day wasn’t the sweet spot closer to the heel?
How does this apply to drivers/3 woods and hybrids than are barely able to be moved upright/flat? Are the pros all playing 6 degree flat drivers? I have found the best way to measure the correct lie angle is to play 2 daysa after a rain. The divot after impact will show you a horizontal line on your club face of mud. You know instantly if you too upright or flat. I think the moral here is what is said. a fade is always better than a draw, why, because the ball stops quicker from its landing spot
6'3" here, wrist-to-floor around 35-36"
I have my irons extended 0.5" and 1.5° upright.
Absolutely no problems for me with this setup.
🤔
Hey Milo, I just watched your video and I must say that it was really informative and well-made.
I was wondering if I could help you edit your videos and repurpose your long videos into highly engaging shorts? I can also make high CTR thumbnails for your channel
Thanks but we already have a team for that
Very interesting regarding the shaft being almost a lady's flex. It would be great if someone could interview Lee Trevino to discuss why he setup his angles flat.
In the old days, everything was trial and error. I would almost bet many of the players from his era would sit on the range with a bending machine experimenting with what gave them the best results.
Lee is a legend, thanks for watching!
softer "whippier" shafts--is this in part the secret as to why folks hit the Autoflex shaft so well ?
Hard to say, the technology's hidden.
I smoke the autoflex
On UA-cam fitters often sort out leaks to the right with upright lie angles, but is there then a chance that it promotes a worse swing for already struggling players?
Only one way to find out, test everything!
If you really get into Lee Trevino’s prime he played various irons that he pulled out of a wooden barrel, early 70s before lightening strike, at this point he was at the top of his game
I feel like I'm missing something here.... To just say that you need to have you clubs flattened and you will hit better is a bit misleading. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this should be based on the individuals measurements and not a blanket statement based on the club itself. As an example, I'm 6'3", if I bent my clubs 6d down from standard I'd be hitting so much toe in the dirt I'd have the opposite issue. I have mine bent up 3d, which gives me a flatter lie angle and promotes what you are saying. I feel that this is what you mean, and not just a general comment for the club from standard, but in relation to the individual. As you were comparing the two clubs being 11d difference, I'd likely see better results with the 6d upright than the 6d flat because of my wrist to ground measurements would put that closer to flat for me. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe this is obvious to some.
Of course everything is relative. The idea is to flex and rotate not extend and flip what that looks like will depend significantly on the anatomy of the individual.
Its interesting. I would say flatter lies and lower hands at impact may make sense for accuracy but you will never see a long drive guy without very high hands at impact.
The 7 iron is a precision tool, the driver is not.
Hmm perhaps. But you name Hogan and Trevino. But don't mention Tiger, Jack, Scheffler, Watson, Couples, Norman etc with very high hands at impact.
Where do I buy or how do I get a flat iron
I'd recommend getting fit, but many irons you can bend to your desired lie angle.
@MiloLinesGolf Thank you. I did a little research. I'll be up to see you sometime this summer. I would love the opportunity to get a fitting with you
I don't do fittings myself, but I can typically tell based on the student in front of me roughly what would work best for them. I would suggest going to our partners at Cool Clubs in Scottsdale or seeing Chad (from video) who is in Ventura, California or he could send you a kit.
@MiloLinesGolf Great Thank you, sir. appreciate it
Most of us are fitted 2 degrees upright because we early extend. Fix the swing first. I had my irons flattened to standard and hit the ball terribly. Perhaps I needed to work on my swing more.
As we said in the video, Chad and other fitters we’ve brought on work with the individual and don’t just move clubs to move clubs. It’s possible there were other factors in your case to consider.
Flat clubs hit it straighter. It’s physics!
Not always they must fit the swing of the golfer swinging them
Could it be that they were shorter men and needed a flatter lie angle? Lee is 5’7” and Ben was 5’8”:
That is part of it for sure
But Hogan was a total knuckle dragger! Freakishly long arms.
Absolutely!!! And this dude plays his 7 iron here at a much higher length which makes it technically play more upright from standard.
@@nelsonjames1272I think it’s the opposite, the longer your club the flatter your swing, so lengthen the club and you can flatten the iron. Your wedge swing is much more upright than your driver. Think of a club that is 10 feet long. You have to swing very flat.
Doesn't over length make it okay more effectively upright
Yes, so the flatter lie gets offset a touch.
anybody know what lie angle Moe played
In the early days of Moe mania during the heyday of Natural Golf, they maintained that his clubs-and therefore theirs-were upright, 2 degrees I think. I’ve since heard Todd Graves maintain the opposite. He would be able to inform you definitively.
The only thing I don't like about this is you're going from one box and putting everyone else in a different box. That's the issue that I keep having with instruction and tips and ideas. Just some of the variables when you think about it with equipment for example with the idea of going flatter okay some patterns might work that way depending on the person's physical makeup their swing characteristics their timing their strength etcetera. Yet you'd also have to factor in the shaft weight the head weight the grip size the grip weight where the kick points going to be there so many factors that go into it that the problem is if he gave me that club maybe I would swing it better but that doesn't mean it actually fits me I still might be adjusting to it. I feel like the entire fitting process is backwards for professionals they make the club fit them. So Lee Trevino and Ben Hogan would tell their fitter this is what I'm trying to do make a club that does that. Where is the Casual golfer or the less experienced golfer that doesn't have access to an actual fitter the Fitters going to hand them a club and say how does that feel and all the golfers trying to do is get a certain ball flight. You at the club itself isn't fitting them they are fitting to the club. I feel like it's two different worlds
The upright clubs start with sorry swing instruction. Years ago when they started this point the butt of the club at the ball mess. Trevino on Hogan's butt of the club points above the ball under the plane. Hence flat lie angles. That and club manufacturers have no idea what they're doing. Upright clubs promote steep swings. I guess club manufacturers figure the more upright they make them the average golfer will not slice as bad.
Right now I'm two degrees flat.
Nice, assuming that's proper for you
I am a retired club maker/fitter and I have been shouting that the clubs that are being manufactured are way too upright, That includes everything from the driver down to the wedges. It is true as clubmakers we tend to bend the wedges a little more flat. I have never understood why play clubs so upright a great way to increase your handicap. A golf swing should be more around your body easier on your lumbar easier way to pick up natural club head speed plus you stay in the shot you simply have better posture and better control of the low point. I don't know much about Milo or his rotational swing, but will say the flatter you swing the club it shallows and the best ball strikers always hit from a shallow descending blow.
Thanks so much for watching, this one was a lot of fun! I agree on the club-maker points. Longer and more upright over the years. Everyone is different though and getting an expert fitting can really help!
Be careful here. Don’t mess too much with lie angle or you’ll struggle. A 61 or 62 degree lie standard length 7 iron will fit most to where they should be with a decent swing. Shaft droop with very soft shafts only.
Assume nothing, test everything!
There’s literally video of Lee Trevino , words out of his mouth , saying he played standard , just saying….relative to individual irons , loft , length , etc have changed over time…but for his era he played standard
6’4 with short arms. 2 degrees upright which I regret but can’t afford to change them…😢
Same lies as Tiger.
Have to find your match! Thanks for watching
2 degrees upright from what though? Manufacturers are different.
@@nelsonjames1272 Ping, it was the case of not great player getting fit and now I am improving the clubs just feel a little too upright. This video resonated with me.
Is this a Brad hughes vid from 10 years ago? 😂
The truth is hard to change! 🐯🏳
They knew to hit DOWN on the ball
LMAO
Hogan and Trevino were/are around 5.7 with long arms. So they had a natural advantage.
Faldo eg. at 6.3 was alway looking for compromises. The other end of the scale is Bryson with a different swing type
Not against a flatter swing at all. The less the hands will go into ulnar at impact; the better the shot.
To get the angle just right two other factors are in the equation:
1. distance to the ball.
2. head weight in relation to club length for a playable club.
Player must find an optimum.
Yup. I bought into the flatter lie angle theory. Clubs 2 degrees flat. Started standing way too far from the ball and coming over it to keep it from going right and way of the toe. I have a wrist to floor that is 37.5 inches at 6 feet. I'm now three degrees upright and half inch over. My rotation is the best it's ever been. I don't stand far from it anymore and I almost never miss left. Actually missed it left more often with a flatter lie angle. I can now swing a little more in to out and get myself into a really good position at impact. A lot less minor manipulations as well. Center face strikes constantly. I actually need a driver that is well upright as well as my smash goes up .05 with longer more upright clubs that OEMs don't offer off the rack anymore. 60 degree LA is the max and I need probably another degree or two since can't go longer than 46 inches to dynamically get the lie angle correct.
One would think a more upright lie angle would go more left. But this is just not the case. I can actually start to hit push draws again with the same move I made back in 2010 that I couldn't seem to execute a year ago with flat angles.
Body dynamics play a huge role in relation to static club setups. I was well outside the mean for my body type. In fact I have unknowingly been playing on the edge of that mean my whole life at standard LLL.. It took going way outside the mean to finally really figure it out.
do you not believe in a dynamic lie test ,ie lie board read at impact not address. surely we need look at shaft droop etc.
Dynamic lie tests aren’t great, the player reacts to the tool. They can move badly to get the club to work.
I'm lost. I was too focused on why he would keep hitting from a divot, and didn't learn anything.
Hmm, what can I help clarify? We hit from the same spot to avoid tearing up a bunch of good grass.
2 degrees flat (thanks to a fitter way back in the 80's that watched my ball flight), but every other fitter wants to put me at 2 up.... i hook em off the planet. Don't trust that lie board, doesn't work for everyone.
Many of the expert fitters we work with don't love the lie board.
Trevino and Hogan were like 5'7" tall of course their clubs are flat.
waste of 12 min
Why?
micro degrees of club lie angle aren't promoting bad golf swing mechanics , come on.
We aren’t talking about micro degrees
it's satirical, swap micro to singular degrees. same point. there is no way club lie angle causes poor swing mechanics. at best it randomly changes the ball flight for shit swings. not the other way around.
@@kipkapper3014 Best way to find out is to test it. Thanks for watching.
@@ForewardGolf you know what , i will
If your clubs don’t fit, you will adapt over time and your swing will change, for better or worse.
flat clubs aren’t a ‘secret’ and don’t account for anyone’s game!!
ridiculous.
Goodluck out there on the track! 🐯🏳
Would you agree that a flatter downswing is more beneficial than steep? The thought behind having your irons bent flat is that it will encourage your swing/body motion to return the club on a flatter plane.
@@craigg2058 the club's 'flatness' at address has zero influence on the swing path, which is something unaffected by a change of clubs.
if i am forced to use someone's 'upright' set of clubs, i will not change my swing path, i will simply hit more shots with the 'heel down' than normal.
My experience has been different. If I have an upright club in hand I’m not going to continue to dig the heel in at impact. I’m going to athletically adjust my swing resulting in an unwanted steep downswing. Most equipment is set up too upright, resulting in an upright swing/downswing.
@@craigg2058 i understand your point...but i have never played a golf club SO upright that i cannot swing my flat swing with it...but as you say, the potential is there if a club is upright in the extreme for a person, which my experience has not found to be a real issue...nor do i believe a person's swing will be 'fixed' by using a flat club...though your point is simply that a flatter club will engender a flatter swing. but i'm not sure i agree except in each extreme, which is not really a practical issue. i'm not a tall person, but i have never had a problem swinging any standard club...the issue you're speaking of would seem to be the idea of a midget having to swing with tom wieskopf's equipment...but that just never happens in the real world.
work on your SWING, and never mind the meaningless lie of the club!
..the lie must match Your Height....trying to swing flat or upright are wrong....standard lie matches around 5ft11in.height....impact is a straight line from left shoulder to ball...(not like low hands at adress,which i dont like)