Tai Chi debate: Chen Style New Form (Xinjia) vs Old Form (Laojia) and beyond
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- This video introduces Chen style Tai Chi history, especially the New Form and Old Form conflict. Explanation and demonstration included.
1. An important issue in Chinese culture. (00:53)
2. How many routines in the original Chen style Tai Chi? (5:04)
3, Brief history of late Chen style Tai Chi. (12:15)
4, Xinjia vs Laojia or New Form vs Old Form (17:07)
5, Demonstration (29:45)
6, Takeaways (33:01)
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#InternalMartialArt #InternalKungFu #Taichi #Chenstyletaichi #Chentaichi #taiji #taijiquan #Taichiquan #chenfake #chenzhaokui #haiyang #mahong #oldform #newform #chenchangxing #yangluchan
i learned about 60% of the old style in the lineage of chen xiaowang. however a friend who teached 24 yang in my city and also a bit of xinjia in the lineage from ma hong, told me the story of this new style and old style confusion. at some point i had the opportunity to ask Chen Xiaowang in person, but he did not have an interesting answer with additional informations to resolve the confusion.
however, i saw him practicing the new style himself while maybe mainly teaching the old style.
i always thought that the spiral reeling silk movements look very beautiful and feel very nice. however, it adds an additional level of complexity to make progress when starting to learn chen style tai chi chuan.
the videos of ma hong look very cool. sadly there are no really high quality high resolution videos around. it was sad when i heard of his passing in 2013. i have his book in my shelf at home 🙂
I really must express how I find enlightening, fascinating and also humbling the blend of scholarship with martial arts that you share with us in all your videos. In my mind, it has become impossible to separate the two and I cannot see myself learning one without the other (for the record I've been learning Chen taiji with Alain in Quebec City for a few years, and I've taken up Cheng baguazhang in recent months). Therefore I'm very thankful for all your videos, which I all find very useful, even when just simply sitting and watching. :) Now, that stretching exercise is calling to me... but it is definitely something to try slowly and incrementally. Looking forward to your next video, as always!
Hello Jeff. I hope you are doing well. When alain visit me last time we mentioned of you. Good to know that you are enjoying chen style tai chi too. Yes. I agree with you regarding the inseparable elements in practice. We are living in a modern time and we should have new goal in practice. Thanks again.
I really enjoy your videos and look forward to the notifications that you've created another. Thank you for your hard work and the knowledge you're passing on.
Glad you like them and thank you.
How refreshing to hear such honesty, reality and yet concise social commentary that often is lacking within the Martial Arts community. I am still constantly surprised just how gullible people can be about traditional martial arts, and while I find them fascinating and rewarding, they are not the path to superhuman powers! I know that advice is dangerous, but I study Yang Taichi (of Dr Yang Jwing-Ming) but would proper study of Chen be more beneficial and authentic? Just trying to find some true direction!
I studied both but I much prefer Chen style, personally.
@@HaiYangChannel Thankyou Sifu!
Thank you for the video. I've never trained in Tai Chi Chuan but I appreciate the greater clarity I now have regarding the history of Chen Style. That stance you demonstrated is quite challenging indeed and a truly impressive display of flexibility and strength. Thanks again and hope you are well.
You are very welcome. The demo was the old way to practice this movement. This is why I said in the video that the name is not that important...Thanks.
Thank you for taking the time to make this video and share it. I am relatively new to taiji (only 2 years) and I greatly appreciate your insight.
You're very welcome!
I love the last guys style of cloud hands, his perspective, how he pushes off a imaginary wall behind him with his right hand,,an yin &yang principle (i think)
Is able to explode foward if he wanted. But the great practitioner flows on and keeps his steady pace with his form. Thank you master. 🌌☯️🌌
Thank you.
Thank you, Teacher Yang!
From Wiki "Hong Jung Shen noted that Chen Fake changed his teaching method over his thirty years career. Hong also noticed that his fellow students such as Chen Zhaoxu, Chen Zhaokui and Feng Zhiqiang all practiced their forms differently from him. Hong finally asked Chen Fake about this issue during his last meeting with his teacher in 1957. Chen told Hong to ignore the external appearance of the form but focused on the idea that any correct t'ai chi ch'uan form should be based on the same fundamental principle and that each element of a form should have a purpose. Accordingly, the external appearance is not important as long as those two requirements are met"
thanks.
洪均生的架子有小架的影子。他自己也说过他的改动经过陈发科的认可。
Very interesting thanks
Great video Laoshi!
The photo that I was with Raymond was shot by you. Thanks!
@@HaiYangChannel I remember!
Thank you again Master Yang for another excellent and informative lecture. Your insights are very much appreciated. 🙏
You are very welcome. Thanks.
Thank you for sharing this information your observation regarding Chen Tai Ji Chuan resonates strongly with me I often thought that Beijing branch was somewhat under appreciated .
As a side note ten years ago I was in Zhengzhou training with master Wang Changhai who spoke very highly of master Ma Hong.
Thank you for sharing your personal practical experience. Yes, Mr. Ma Hong was one of my tai chi teachers and I greatly appreciate his teaching and guidance. His spirt always encourages me. Thanks.
For those that are new to tai chi. Yang style tai chi is easier to learn. Its the most popular style of tai chi
Chen style is the original tai chi. Its more complicated and have lower stances. But if you have the strength Chen tai chi can be good for you. Its good to be flexible as well for Chen tai chi. It has both fast and slow movements. All tai chi styles are good.if
Well, nothing easy if we set up the right learning objective... Thanks,
So regarding Chen Taiji what's new is old again...👊🏾😎👍🏼
that is the history.:)
Thank you! finally clarity :)
You're welcome!
Very glad to have you share your insight! Thank you!
Thank you and you are very welcome.
Thank you for another insightful video. Although my experience is predominantly with the Yang style, I found this video quite enjoyable and enlightening.
Thanks. And I think there must be the similar issues in yang style as well. I did this style before then just gave up and switched to chen style eventually. Yang style tai chi is great too!
Thank you Brother! ❤
Ni hao. Thank you for the great video. My instructor Sifu James McNeil studied with Pan Wing Chow of Taipei Taiwan who was one of Chen Fake's early students in Beijing. Master Pan taught the Chen form for 60 years and there is video footage of him doing the First Form and some push hands. Great video and thank you for the tips on doing the low postures. Much appreciated.
Will check pan out. Thanks.
@@HaiYangChannel No worries. Thank you.
@@HaiYangChannel Ni hao. Sifu McNeil also practices Xingyiquan he learned in Taipei from Hsu Hong-Chi and Chiao Chang Hung. He also practices Dragon Bagua learned From Chiao Chang Hung who learned from Yang Yu Lin who learned from Ma Wei Chi direct student of Dong Hai Chuan. Great Videos. Happy New Year
@@HaiYangChannel The Old Style that Master Pan taught was the 13 Sections 64 movements form.
No idea about these info. But thanks,
Thank you so much about this very useful video. 💖
You are so welcome!
I began studying Chen 18 Form in Los Angeles under my teacher Qichen Guo. I enjoyed it and asked him what the next step would be. He said learn the 74 movement form. Is there merit in learning this "Old Frame" before the New Frame? Is the old frame the one that the gentleman in the Black & White Film you showed was doing? Thank you for your excellent research. I enjoyed it so much because I learned so much from you. Merci!
That is Tian Xiuchen, a stduent of Chen Fa'ke. Chen Fa'ke taught the "new form"...
Thank you for the great information. 👍😀
My pleasure!
Thank you sir. That cleared up some of my questions.
Glad it helped. Thanks,
A different perspective on the two forms' frames and combative applicabilities: FRAME Laojia is "old man's" Taiji: Zhaopei taught it in the village late in life. So, much of the overt silk reeling was not visible, as he had internalized the practice. Xinjia is younger man's taiji, which Zhaokui taught at a younger age. So, the overt silk reeling - the "exoskeleton" - is therefore easier to see, to practice, and later, to internalize. COMBATIVES: Zhaopei was teaching at an advanced age, so put less emphasis on fighting. He was also teaching in an era in China when combative wushu was frowned upon. Zhaokui, on the other other, taught some of the combative skill in the village, notably the qinna. In sum: The "frame" of Xinjia becomes Laojia....and as we become older and hopefully wiser, we tend to de-emphasize combat and more to self -cultivation. So Laojia represent a more "advanced" level of Taiji - but to reach that level, you first need to go through the basic, gongfu-building level of Xinjia. For this reason, I think it is better (if you practice both forms) to start with Xinjia, then progress to Laojia. This, of course, is the opposite to how it is taught in the village these days. FWIW, IMHO, etc.
Hello, I agree on some of your writing. But some not. Thank you for your input.
Haha. That is not the normal way to look at it, but you raise a very important point in the progression of practice. Having trained with Master Chen Zhenglei over the last 20 years i have seen the progress of many students. Going from the simple, "big picture" Laojia, to the more difficult and intricate Xinjia. Going back to basic simple Laojia and turning the focus away from the physical technique and "jin", and instead, focusing on the Qi and spiritual practice. This is just from my observation of Master Chen.
Thanks for sharing this excellent information.
You are very welcome and thank you for your support.
Thank you for making this video. If you have time, i have a few questions. What do you think of the big, obvious hinging, opening and closing of the chest like in feng's tai chi, vs less "rolling" types of movements? Is "tong" an important quality in tai chi, and if so, is it developed in the form, or from seperate practices? And, aside from the question of who's tai chi is best, do you feel that one lineage or another would be best for beginners? Does one branch or another focus more on things like holding single postures, stick, ruler and ball, ji ben gon vs. form, etc?
Thanks again
Thank you for your comments. Regarding your question about Feng Zhiqiang, in my opinion, Feng Zhiqiang had contributed a lot in terms of developing and promoting Chen style in China. I appreciate his style very much even though I have never had a chance to practice it. It is a wonderful style.
Also, regarding your second question, I think there is no best style for a beginner as it depends on the objective of the person. Any Chen style has the similar training materials for a beginner even though the body methods among them are a bit different, but still, we practice silk-reeling...
Thanks,
I would like to thank you for the effort to produce such a video. I have also wondered about the relationship between laojia and xinjia, while I understand there are good reasons to believe that xinjia is the real old form, one thing that always bothered me was the fact that laojia movements are much more similar to Yang style compared to xinjia. If Yang Luchan’s form came from What we know as xinjia, shouldn’t the Yang Style Long form movements look more similar to Xinjia?
One caveat is that my xinjia is from Zhu Tiancai’s school and I observed that his xinjia seems to be deliberately more different from laojia than the other masters (I used Chen Yu as a reference)
I would like to answer your question.
First of all, if you want to find the similarities between the big frame Chen style with Yang style in terms of movements, it is almost impossible,. Because both of them have changed a LOT.
(1) Old Yang style was from Small frame Chen style, and Small frame is different from Big Frame.
(2), Yang Luchan changed the form when he moved to Beijing, that is the first time of Yang style Change.
(3) Yang Luchan's son changed the form again, but still small frame Yang style.
(4), Yang Chengfu changed the form to Big Frame form, it is another time of change, at least.
So, both of them changed times and there is no way to identify them according to "movements".
Regarding the Tai Chi force, since the "new form" has more silk reeling practice, which is the key feature and characteristics of Chen, then if you see that there is less silk-reeling motions, that is sign of a modified Chen form...
Also, many Yang style teachers "create" some personalized Yang style practice by following and imitating some Chen styles so that they can claim that their forms are the "old yang style" or Yang luchan style... actually, it is a common problem which should be disclosed in the community.
IF you want, please post a link of the Yang long form and I will let you know more about my opinion of it.
zhu Tiancai learned both from Chen Zhaopi and Chen Zhaokui. So no surprise that he knows both.
Again, thank you for your comments.
Very informative video. Thank you.
You are welcome and thank you.
I think it's safe to say that the Taiji of Chen Fake was not fake. See what I did there?
Chen is great!
@@HaiYangChannel yeah. see the joke is, if you said to a westerner that is name is "fake", they would not know it is pronounced "fah kuh". they would think it is like the english word "fake".
Great Video...Thank you 🙏
Glad you liked it!
Thank you for sharing. I do not practice TaiChiQuan myself but the "choosing the best not the oldest" resonates deeply with what I have experienced. I was raised in a family with somewhat strict Chinese upbringing and I often realize how the "Utopianism" affect the way things are taught or told. Even the media tends to publicize the "oldest" or "most legendary", focusing entirely on the surface or titles, making it hard to find resources that are actually useful and applicable in practice. Aside from training experience, do you have any advice on how to decide whether a resource is a good learning material?
Thank you for your comments. As a Chinese, I always take time to reconsider different cultural phenomenon...I am lucky to have chance to do so.
So, a new element to add to my streching routine. But I'm aghast that I won't be able to fly by training very hard ;) Thanks for another very informative video. Stay healthy.
Yes, stay healthy, and grounded without flying.
@@HaiYangChannel :D
Hello Mr. Yang,
great video, and one that was needed for a long time. There is a lot of misinformation and poor behaviour on the part of some taichi practitioners, and that is really sad. The lucky thing is that it's easy to spot those guys - the louder someone yells that their taichi is the most "real, true, authentic" etc, and the more they disrespect others, the weaker their actual taichi skills are. I've come across some horrible looking taichi, but within a short conversation I understood why it was horrible: their skill was a reflection of their attitude.
The Xinjia/Laojia discussion is quite clear to understand if people research it (like you did) - but most people don't: they take a position on the topic that is very uneducated, and then defend it aggressively despite having no real support for it. The way you explained it was perfect.
To me, the most important parts are the details: if one form/style has more martial art detail, and can be explained and practiced with a clearer martial intent, then that is the art I would choose to study more. Both the Xinjia and the Laojia, when done well, are beautiful and feel full of what I can only call the "Taiji spirit". However, the Xinjia is much clearer and crisper than Laojia, so as someone who enjoys martial arts and takes pleasure in the details, I much prefer the Xinjia.
In terms of videos of other masters, I've been waiting for 15 years now for someone to show longer videos of Chen Zhaokui (there is only one 10 second video that I know of), but unfortunately I don't think such a video exists. Do you have any hope such a video was ever taken by anyone? Over the years I've enjoyed watching the videos of some other Chen Fake students - with Tian Jianhua being one of my favorites (probably because there are many videos of his online).
Again, thanks for doing this much-needed video!
Hello. Very happy to read your email since we share many things in common. We have to tell people the history or the truth will be covered by commercial statements.
For years, I wanted to make a video to talk about this issue. But I have been busy for different obligations. Now. I have more time and I willl share more info with the community.
I am very careful here in dealing with historical data and information. Also to avoid any unnecessary disharmony, I try not to point out more serious issues.
Thank you for your support. Be safe in Shanghai.
If you're a fan of the gold standard of Chen Fa Ke, then do you agree that Chen Zhao Kui inherited that gold standard? If Chen Zhao Kui inherited the gold standard from his father, then Chen Yu, the son of Chen Zhao Kui, should have inherited that gold standard also, right? Chen Yu's xinjia looks like the real deal, especially since he has a direct line to Chen Fa Ke.
very interesting. the difference between old and new form is probably much ado about nothing for most practitioners. I guess the question that I would ask you is which do you believe to be more effective for fighting if one trains and not just practice. the art was developed from military forms that were chosen because they were effective in combat and I think the best form would be the one that carries that effectiveness forward.
In my opinion, the xin jia is more effective in terms of training if we use the definition made my chen xiaowang. In terms of combat, it is totally depends on people. Nowadays, unless people training it for a specific purpose, then it will be just for health. Because different purposes require different way of practice. Thanks.
this is great. Such insight!
Thanks.
Very nice video - thank you.
My answer to how many forms would of course be 'originally' zero - first comes skill then masters create forms :)
Thank you for sharing your experience with us.
老师，很希望能听到您做一些中文的讲座，这些我们传统的文化 中文听起来应该会能更好的意会。谢谢您🙏
好的，将来我多弄些中文的。我过去也弄过一些形意拳的中文的，在我的频道里面有。谢谢支持。
Fascinating video.
thanks.
In our Tai Chi Debate, as to whether the 'New Frame' or 'Xinjia' is really the original "Old Frame," or whether the name 'Xinjia' is to be taken literally, so that it really is a 'Newer,' more recent development in the Chen Style Tai Chi, more complexity is added to our Debate when we see that the term "New Frame," is used to describe 2 other lineages other than the Chen Changxing lineage which was inherited by Chen Fa Ke:
1) The Zhaobao Tai Chi is attributed to Chen Qingping who learnt a small 'New Frame' from Master Chen Youbeng.
2) The Famous book on the Chen Style Tai Chi was written by Chen Xin, who belonged to the Chen Youheng lineage, which is known also as "New Frame" even if this style is rare today.
However, in regards to the 'Large frame' Chen Tai Chi of Master Chen Changxing, as was practiced by the legendary Master Chen Fa Ke, it is my 'humble' opinion' that Chen Xiaowang got it right by saying that the Old Frame is what was taught by Chen Zhaopei; on the other hand, notwithstanding his incredible skill as a Martial Artist, Master Ma Hong got it wrong, seeing that the style later taught by Chen Zhaokwei--Chen Fa Ke's Son.
Let's explain better: For the most Part, the Old Frame Forms, as promoted by Chen Zhaopei, have less silk reeling Circles, but these Old Frame Forms are often performed with very Low Wide Stances: The New Frame Chen Tai Chi Forms, as promoted by Chen Zhaokwei, are Characterized by more compact stances( this makes it more practical for combat, among other reasons) and there is more Silk reeling, and the circles in the "New Frame" tend to be smaller( an exception to this rule was Ma Hong, who's Tai Chi was different from the other top students of Chen Zhaokwei).
Last but not least, it is my opinion that Chen Zhaokwei actually improved on his Father Chen Fa Ke's New Frame.
Let's take a closer look at this "Progression" from 'Old' to 'New:'
1) In The Older more Primitive version associated with the Chen Zhaopei tradition, the Circles are larger but the Stances are Wider and often Lower too: Here is Master Chen Meng Song:
ua-cam.com/video/I9sfRWU_OwE/v-deo.html
2) I believe than Chen Fa Ke himself improved on the Form he originally taught too his Nephew Chen Zhaopei, or alternately, Chen Fa Ke's Students improved the form so that the Beijing Chen Style today is known as the New Frame: Here we begin to see the "Progression" from Old to New as performed by Chen Fa Ke's Last living Student Tian Jian Hua, he is about 95 years Old today
ua-cam.com/video/JX8wyjrZipw/v-deo.html
3) As I mentioned above I believe that Chen Zhaokwei improved on his Father's new Frame, and here we continue to see the progression to the "most refined" "newest" versions of the Chen Style Tai Chi: this can be discerned in the Tai Chi of the 3 Zhangs: Zhang MaoZhen, Zhang Zhijun, and Zhang Qilin
a) Zhang Zhijun:
ua-cam.com/video/VB2foMWJmhE/v-deo.html
b) Zhang Maozhen is in my opinion one of the most talented Chen Tai Chi Masters of our time:
ua-cam.com/video/VB2foMWJmhE/v-deo.html
4) Finally Master Ma Hong's form was different from the Other top students of Chen Zhaokwei: The Circles are bigger and the Stances are somewhat wider and Lower: it is the a "New Frame Tai Chi" but with Characteristics of the "Old Frame" as performed above by Master Chen Men Song---interestingly Ma Hong said there is no difference between Old and New, and this attitude comes thru in his Form.
Master Ma Hong, Xinjia Yilu:
ua-cam.com/video/dJCiNHd5gT4/v-deo.html
Actually Zhang Maozhen is here: ua-cam.com/video/OEOheO8Dtvw/v-deo.html
I just read a few lines and noticed some mistakes. I will read the rest when I have more time. Thanks.
Thank you for this video - it cut so much of the modern mythology away that it was very refreshing to hear. I read an interview with the small frame teacher Chen Peishan who said that his father Chen Lixian told him that the so-called xinjia form of Chen Zhaokui was just the higher level (gongfujia) of the large frame. The small frame line also say that the modern large frame form was developed by Chen Youben and Chen Changxing’s son Chen Gengyun (Chen Fake’s grandfather) out of the form that Chen Changxing taught Yang Luchan - so that Chen large frame continued to evolve after Chen Changxing. Is there any truth in this?
Hello. Thank you for your comments. Yes, I have heard what you said here from different sources too. Gongfujia or martial frame is a term to describe the nature of the “xinjia”. I did not mention it in my video since I do not want people think that I am biased. I think any style should keep developing. Thanks again.
I learned Chen Style taiji along side traditional Shaolin. The two are very hand and hand. Especially once you get exposed to Xiao Jia things start looking way more shaolin. Look at Chang Hu XinYi men compared to Lao jia yi lu. Very similar in function and choreography.
Thanks for sharing
Hello there. Just reading The Tao of Tai Chi Chuan Way to Rejuvenation by Jou Tsung Hwa. Is there an English Translation of Chen Xin's Tai Chi Chuan book that you know of? Xie xie.
Yes, there is an English version of it but no idea where to get it.
@@HaiYangChannel Hello. Ok great! Thank you. I will look for it.Thank you again.
I am now studying Mao Zai Lao Jia. A variation of Wu Tai Qi Chuan. I am practicing Yi Gin Ching as well. I hope that the Yi Gin Ching will increase internal qi gung/ nei juang- as well as wei juang.
What I have noticed is that whatever the monks write down has come to pass, exactly as written- even the time periods of any particular phenomenon. They do not write metaphorically, as far as the practice is concerned. They write the Yi Gin Ching documents from experience, passed them down due to experience. The documents should not be taken lightly. But time and consistency is needed for the effects of the practice to take place.
Mao Zhai Lao Jia is great! Thanks.
@@HaiYangChannel , I have found an interesting tidbit about Wang Mao Zhai and the founder of Wu style Taiji Chuan. Wang Mai Zhai was the older brother "Shi Shiung". And in the Wu document, the first photo is Wang Mao Zhai's photo. He is seated in a chair. Wu Jien Chuan, who is known as the founder of Wu style became famous and worked for the current government at that time. Wu style became well known, and Wang Mao Zhai continued teaching his own style, which can be considered a version of Old Frame Yang style, since Chuan You taught Wang Mao Zhai. I'm wondering if you, Hai Yang, can do a video of this era in Taiji Chuan's history.
At least from what we can see in Tian Xiuchen, Chen Zhaokui obviously made huge changes. Changes that practically nobody absorbed, except for his son. The village practiced a broken hodge-podge, comparatively. There used to be a lot more discussion about the falling out between Feng and CXW, but the details were telling. A lot of that was on websites in the 1990's that are now long gone. But the truth is, the meat left the village along with Chen Fake in 1927.
Thank you for your comments. according to Chen Zhaokui's students, that Chen Zhaokui practiced a low posture or the practice that his father taught him at home. I think we can use this to explain the Chen Zhaokui's low posture compared to other students of Chen Fake. Personally, I like Feng's practice a lot, I think he had contributed a great deal on further development of Chen style, or his Hunyuan Chen style.
Also, the reason for me to make this video is to inform people the background of Xinjia and Laojia, and eventually, they can make a choice by themselves in choosing a right style.
Even if you don't like/respect the current state of laojia and xinjia in the village, they are not the only extant traditions there. There is also xiaojia and heleijia, which are unconnected to Fake or Zhaopei. There may also be other tiny, family sub-styles in the village (virtually every house is walled off) and in the wider region.
Okay, so Chen Fa Ke's style is the gold standard. I agree with that. But you seem to be avoiding saying that his son, Chen Zhao Kui, inherited that gold standard. Now, if Chen Zhao Kui inherited the gold standard, then his son, Chen Yu, has also inherited that gold standard, correct? So, in other words, Chen Yu, having a direct line to Chen Fa Ke, should be holding the gold standard now, right? Do you agree? If not, please let me know why, because I'm very curious why Chen Yu isn't being given that distinction.
Well, there is no such logic in the world to think like this. I only talk about chen Fa’ke and his achievement. To other people, I don’t want to assume anything. I need to collect more materials to answer your question but may not necessary to do so since sometimes, things are beyond my concerns. Thanks anyway.
@jon manilenio you are making an important point here. Chen Yu is not recognised enough for his skill. According to Wang Hai Jun, Chen Yu's skill is at the same level as Chen Xiao Wang and Chen Zhenglei
. Well done for pointing out Chen Yu's importance as a gold standard bearer.
Chen Yu is way better than anybody in the village...
Thanks for another video. Most of your sources agree with mine.
While I like the additional history and sources that the Li Family Genealogy adds to the origins of Taijiquan, I thought that the martial arts historical community had dismissed this as inauthentic and all the materials had disappeared. there is something very fishy going on here, but I don’t know if the stink arises from the finders of the materials or from those who’d like this account to go away.
I also do not subscribe to the older is better notion of “cultural utopianism,” however an art can prove itself in a time of violence, but it can lose its context when practiced without usage in times of peace within a couple of generations.
I do not think it much matters form-wise which branch of Chen style one practices. They are all very similar only differing slightly in detail. More important is availability and the skill set of the teacher or if the teacher’s teacher is living also his/her skill set. That skill set is what one will ultimately learn.
However, using your logic, we should all be practicing Chen style Taijiquan Practical Method, sometimes called Hong Style Taijiquan. According to He Shugan, an eyewitness, Hong Junsheng had notions of performing the forms exactly as positioned during application. In 1956, after receiving approval from Chen Fake to make this modification to his form, Hong and Chen went through every movement in the form to decide how it should be performed. This form, then, becomes the final form created during Chen Fake's life.
Thanks, and I am glad to see that we think the same thing.
So basically Lao jia is the simpfied version for health but xinjia is combat practical and the originally chen style forms
No, I did not say that. Both forms are good and its benefits depend on how do you practice them.
@@HaiYangChannel oh ok
when you see chen xiaowang do his fajing movements during laojia yilu, you for sure do want to be too close. very powerful stuff.
same effectiveness independent of laojia or xinjia. however while the additional spiral movements adds an additional layer of complexity for beginners to learn tai chi, these spiral movements feel very nice inside and you understand that inside your body there is a kind of inner movement that is a kind of mirror to the outer movements of your arms/hands.
it is a strange new feeling at first that the outside movement is somehow connected to a sensation in/around your belly.
if i am understanding the progress of the training right, you train this connection of inner and outer movement to a degree where the outer movement not defines the inner movement anymore but at an advanced level you create the inner movement and the arms/hands will follow the inner movement.
i am not sure if i am right on that. however, those spiral movements come with a very nice feeling. i like it.
Although there was nothing new from the historical point of view in this video there is a point to consider in the Lao Jia /Xin Jia discussion: I strongly believe that the Taijiquan Chen Fake practiced strongly looked like what we know as Lao Jia today. But he developed and added postures and when Chen Zhaokui came back to the village there was a difference to their version, so they called Chen Zhaopis version Lao Jia and Chen Zhaokuis version Xin Jia. Why do i think that Chen Fakes version was always like Chen Zhaopis version? Look at the Chen Style Pan Yongzhous way of execution, an early student of Chen Fake that later went to Taiwan. it's much closer to the Lao Jia version than to executions by the later students of him like Tian Xiuchen or Feng Zhqiang. So, from this point of view it is logical to talk about a new frame, as it changed significantly especially regarding the 2nd routine (Xin Jia Er Lu). Here is Pan Yongzhous version: ua-cam.com/video/cKQ7BwILTAE/v-deo.html
Thank you for your input. I do not have any strong believe in anything since it is useless to believe something that strong. Also, one or two person's demonstration does not mean much... anyway, again, thank you for your input.
@@HaiYangChannel Well, it's not much abaout the demonstration but the structure of the routine. When Chen Fake arrived in Beijing his way was still "Lao Jia" but it changed over the years as he was innovative. Just a logical process.
Logic? How about another logic that chen zhaopi, after learning from his uncle chen fa’ke, changed the form after years practice without his uncle’s correction? This is the logical reason I heard from some logical people. Anyway, no need to argue for this kind of information. Seriously, I still cannot see the points that you are making here. Sorry.
Then how comes that Pan Yongzhou's routine who never trained with Chen Zhaopi looks like Lao Jia from the village and not what Chen Fake later taught to other students? Logic?
Please ask about it from him. Many possible reasons, must be. Like I said that one or two person’s practice do not mean much in analysis. Also, I cannot answer it for you. Again, sorry.
do you have links to those video examples
Please use google no idea how to post link here.
@@HaiYangChannel you wrote a bunch of links in the description but you don't know how to post links here?
@@HaiYangChannel clearly you are lying lol
@@tubulartuber it's possible he had someone type up the description. Still, that same person could add in the link.
陈照丕的架子跟陈发科的架子不太一样。陈发科早期的架子因该才是真正的老架也就是大架原名叫十三势共64式跟陈鑫的书一致。陈照魁回陈家沟的时候肯定发现了不同。在陈家沟小架以前称作新架。陈小旺玩改名这招有点阴损。
这就是我这个视频中涉及的信息。
I am surprised Haiyang! With doing so much research in taiji you chose to practice Ma Hong's extremely altered and may i say disjointed chen xinjia.I was with Mahong for 2.1.5 years and when i went to beijing and practiced with Xushixi(Feng zhiqiang) and Wang qing yun.(Tian Xiuxchen).I felt i had learned the real chen xinjia taiji.I had a chance to study with Ling zhi an but i chose his student Xuzhenping which was a mistake.If you compare Ling Zhian with Mahong both students of Chen Zhaokui you can see a vast difference.Mahong;s interpretation of Chen Zhao Kui's form is flawed to say the least! Chen xiaowang and the other brother disciples of Chenzhaopi though they learned xinjia on the few occassions that Chen zhaokui came to the Chen village , their xinjia form was flavoured by laojia old style and they never got the silk-reeling chansijin right.That is why they all continued to teach 72 laojia.Now days if you see what is being taught in the world it is mostly laojia 72 plus an upsurge of hong style chen taiji.The closest to chenfa ke is the lineage from Tian Xiu chen.Xu Shixi's interpretation of Chen Zhaokui is good.In beijing and zhengzhou and nanjing you can find teachers in the Chen Zhao Kui lineage but not many.The silk reeling in Laojia forms is as non apparent as silk reeling in Yang style forms.
Do you want to share your video of Tai Chi?
GM Chen Xiaowang in the example was much older than when he first learned it. I found some earliest videos of him doing xin jia yi lu in his 30s. ua-cam.com/video/Ckg1VRGzoVQ/v-deo.html ; ua-cam.com/video/RPo0V475XZY/v-deo.html . It does appear more like Tian including a bit more silk reeling . Your comparisons are solid, but these my be better to compare realistically. Thanks for all your scholarship.
I am not talking about the movements but the style.
Yes I get it. It is just that Xiaowang has standardized both Chen yi lu forms over the years, and his earlier videos show a more clear picture of his Style many decades ago. @@HaiYangChannel
Would be much better if talking in Chinese.
sure.
thanks, but I thought all asians could fly ;)
Yes, when you go there then you will believe you can fly:)
Cultural utopianism is definitely a problem in many Chinese Martial Arts...I always find it funny when schools claim that they still practice using the same "authentic" drills that they used hundreds of years ago. Can you imaging if you trained an army using the same equipment and drills that were used 300 years ago and then put them in combat against a modern army using modern strategies and equipment? it would be nothing but a massacre.
This is exactly what we see when traditional masters take on MMA fighters.
Don't get me wrong, I respect cultural groups who practice martial arts to keep the tradition alive but these are useless for self-defense.
I do not think cultural utopianism is only a phenomenon of China... thanks,
@@HaiYangChannel i see gold standrad form in old video chen style tai chi
I think tai chi developed from shaolin cannon fist by a monk who studied arhat fist as handed down from nomadic arhats of the bhramman people the same people who were cast into the pit during the decent of Abraham from Mount Sinai. The reason I state this is because arhat boxing and temple culture is outlined in the book of enoch around 89 ad. Of events that happened circa 6700 - cea. Or about 4920 bce. Where the 108 verses of the book the outline of pugilism methods along with the lessons of the mighty men discourse on both the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil are outlined in coloqual language. This is later divulged in the yellow emperors classic of internal medicine as lost information. With the travel of missionaries to China you can see the mystery men of da mo an Indian ascetic monk who came to shaolin little forest. And the founder of tao te ching as another mystery man. When you learn of the relationship between the sun and moon, and the relationship between the temple complex around 4000 years ago these people were moving and exchanging information. However in the case of these two mystery people it seems they came to teach a much broader information that people were slightly unable to comprehend so they left small parts of there information that were the keys to the information for the locals to figure out. However there were highly advanced Taoist cultures later and earlier but it seems that the information that was passed down came from these sources because even the people who worked on the information seemed like they had taken a work to understanding and needed to test said work out like chan san Feng. Ao the mythology of the past present and future may have no clear lines to the past but some of the information people can obtain from way back in prehistory is very on point about things that are going on now in the practice. You shared free information with me. This is the information I have been researching. There no doubt has been a cross cultural advancement through time. And each has made different advancements on the information. I hear your structures in your lectures and they are the same structures in mine only with a whole different set of books and some the same. Someday we will all be fish in crystal clear water. I wish Someday we might pass by each other and wonder who that is?
no idea...
Seriously Matt...this is a serious discussion, not perpetuating the exact things that this video is trying to dispel. This ideas are utter unsubstantiated rubbish...The Book of Enoch says nothing of the kind so please stop spreading such silly nonsense...
Tai Chi is an elderly aerobic exercise not a real combat technique.
If you can't prove the martial art on the world stage then it's not up to par. No self respecting competitors use Tai Chi because it doesn't work for real combat.
Any art has its limits. Also, self-defensive practice has value as well.
There are 3 points incorrect in this presentation so if you are open to being corrected so as not to be 'a victim of disinformation' here they are. 1)Chen Zhaopei never said Chen Fake's skill was 100 times better. He said it was 10 times better. Thats a massive difference. 2 Mao Zedong never promoted Taijiquan. Under his policies Chen Zhaopei was persecuted to the point of twice wanting to commit suicide. It was Deng Xiaoping who wrote "Taijiquan hao" which led to Taijiquan being accepted and promoted as a health building exercise for Chinese people. 3 Chen Xiaowang, Chen Zhenglei, Wang Xian and Zhu Tian Cai were not the only 4 people allowed train with Chen Zhaokui.
I have studied with 3 of them and this information is there for you to find out yourself. Your video presentation is good apart from these 3 errors which i hope you correct once you do your research to verify. Keep up the good work.
First of all, thank you for your input. Since you added some constructive comments, to be precise in historical background information, I think I should reply to your writing.
Even though I believe that your information is constructive, or at least you tried to be so. But still, all of your 3 points of inputs are not correct. Please allow me to correct it one by one.
1. Who told you that Chen Zhaopi never said "100 times better?" In any linguistic system, if we not working on a mathematical calculation, what is the quantitative and qualitative difference between the symbolic and descriptive expression between 10 times better and 100 times better? As a Chinese, we do not see the different between to praise someone is 100 times better or 10 times better. Hong Junsheng in his writing recorded this part: “I (Chen Zhaopi) studied Tai Chi with my uncle (Chen Fa’ke), he is hundred times better than me, he has nothing to do at his hometown. And you should invite him to Beijing…”.
Also, as a Chinese, we do not say someone is 10 times better than ourselves, we use hundred times as an expression.
So, again, please do not focus on mathematics here.
2. Mao Zedong made a command around 1960s saying that “promote physical exercises and strengthen people’s body, by working on exercises, football, running, swimming, mountain claiming and practicing Tai Chi and so on. Then, People’s Daily published his order around 1969. His wife, Jiang Qing, practiced Tai Chi with some famous Tai Chi masters. Also, Mao sent Gu Liuxin (Chen Fa’ke ‘s disciple) to teach Tai Chi to Ho Chi Minh, the Vietnamese Communist Party leader.
Yes, Deng Xiaoping said “Tai Chi Quan is Good”. But it happened much later， which was around 1978.
Yes, Mao started the Cultural Revolution, which was the biggest political and human disaster in China! My family had suffered a lot too. But it had nothing to do with the fact of Mao’s promotion of Tai Chi.
3. Please pay attention to my video. I said “later, Chen Zhaokui was only…” The word LATER means that he could taught many people” in the beginning”. But, LATER, the village leader asked him to focus on those 4 masters. Of course, he could teach others at the same time since it was not considered as a crime to teach other. But, I said “he was ordered by the village government to do so…” which has nothing wrong for him to teach others including my uncle and my Tai Chi teacher as well. Or whom could my teachers learn Tai Chi from?
I hope I have answered your questions even though you said they are mistakes.
Again, thank you for your input. And thank you for giving me an opportunity to clarify it more.
@@HaiYangChannel I'm delighted you correctly interpreted my message as constructive criticism. So i now can continue to clarify for you starting with your 3rd point that asserted the small group training intensively as being just CXW, CZL, WX and ZTC.
And 'later' anyone else who wanted to study with Master Chen.
According to Zhu Tian Cai who i had the good fortune to study sword and xin jia yi lu with before meeting my current Shifu Wang Hai Jun in 2001, Chen Zhaokui taught a public class of about 100 people for 2 hours every morning.
In the evening there were 6 students (not 4 as you suggested) who would review with him and hear his comments on the finer details of the form and theory.
Zhu Tian Cai was one of those 6. Chen Xiao Wang and Chen Zhenglei, who i also have trained with, Wang Xian, Chen Dewang and Chen Lizhou.
In fact Chen Dewang was the oldest and senior member of the group who had learned from many teachers including Chen Xiao Wang's father, and Wang Yan, a student of Chen Fa-ke.
I suggest you review this part of any further presentations as a fact.
Your 1st point about Hong Junsheng's book quoting Chen Zhaopi as saying his uncle was 100 times better is a point i would like to give you a different perspective on.
Authors David Gaffney and Davidine Siaw-Voon Sim, both who i know personally, and have interviewed all 4 Chen Tigers as well as multiple other renowned teachers state in their book Chen Style Taijiquan, 'The source of Taiji Boxing' on page 208 that Chen Zhaopei invited his third uncle Chen Fake whose 'skill was ten times greater than his own' to teach them.
On page 34 on Chen Zhenglei's biography by Cui Chundong when Chen Zhaopi recommended his 3rd uncle Chen Fake to come to Beijing to take over from him. He told them "My third uncle is much better than i am. He is my teacher"
These are just 2 examples of direct quotes so the question lies if much better, 10 times better and 100 times better all mean the same thing would it not be more useful for you to say 'much better' to non Chinese readers who may take this literally to mean 100 times better which you and i both know is simply not true.
One would extrapolate very fast that the Xin jia system must be far superior in that case.
When the fact is the Chen Fake was teaching the Lao jia in Chen village before he moved to Beijing and the Gongli was developed through that form and furthermore Chen Zhaokui is quoted as saying 'the way you people learned, it is like what would take outside people ten years to learn. It is not because Chenjiagou people are smarter. It is because you already had long years of 72 form (lao jia yi lu) practice.
So the point is that the most skilled Chen village people learned lao jia yi lu first and after developing the internal skills then refined them using Xin jia but if you learn Xin jia only it does not mean you will get there faster. In fact the contrary is often more the case as many people who do not have a strong martial foundation like most of Chen Fake's students in Beijing did will actually more likely develop habits of using li and not jin because of the more intense chan si jin and fa jin of the Xin jia.
It is far easier to teach the skills of fang song, chen, peng, ding and chan si through the lao jia yi lu as it is more simple than the xin jia. And the goal is to get the skills so for a non Chinese reader it is not very helpful reading that someone is 100 times better than someone else as it may lead them into erroneous thinking about the value of one form over another.
The 3rd point about Mao Zedong is probably just my disgust at his name being mentioned in connection with a Taijiquan discussion as the tombstones of the Chen family were destroyed, Chen Wangting's sword and a portrait of him, irreplaceable manuscripts not to mention the cruelest of punishments on anyone practicing Taijiquan openly. At its heart the cultural revolution demanded a comprehensive assault on old customs, habits, culture and thinking.
20 million people died as a result of Mao's policies so i was triggered that you even bothered to give him airtime without saying what disastrous and quite frankly monstrous policies he instigated.Again the non Chinese reader can quickly associate Taijiquan with Mao if they are uneducated. But i dont think i should have brought up politics as i know now your family also suffered as a result of his policies.
I respect that you took the time to openly discuss
your views and are not afraid of a little healthy debate. I wish you the best of luck in all your endeavours.
I have no time to read your such a long message. Thank you for your understanding.
@@HaiYangChannel I am curious as to how Chen Fake passed away. There seems to be various stories... I'm wondering if you have some accurate information in this regard. The circumstances are what I am interested in clarifying. Thank you.
@@msgoldberg He passed from a disease...