Looks like you answered your own question already. I have 4 or 5 rudders for my main downwind ski (Stellar) and swapping them out is so easy (but this isn't the same for all brands/designs). I love my 4" DK rudder, it does everything it's meant to and yes, less drag is faster if you're happy paddling it. In the flat I hardly notice any difference in stability. The only time I feel it is if I'm going downwind and the waves pick up to over a foot or two, then the 4" isn't able to get a hold on the water and I end up going sideways across the wave, unable to turn back down it. Getting away with the shortest rudder you can going downwind is also fun! ps Like that recessed rudder on the Kai Wa'a. All skis should be like that.
That's good knowledge, thanks for sharing. We've heard good things about the 4" DK. It would be fun to change things up and downwind with the smaller fin!
Thanks for sharing. It seems like a you get a lot for your money with the Vega. Two rudders, a cover, and a full carbon boat. I've only used the small weedless rudder that came with my Epic v10. It's fine in the conditions I paddle in, but it wasn't so great when I raced the Surf to Sound in bigger conditions. Some of the guys I race with cut their weedless rudders in half or build really small rudders for the flatwater/river races.
Alex, the Vega Pro comes with both rudders and a deluxe cover. The non-pro comes with a single rudder and a standard cover -- still a lot for the money. If that was the last Surf to Sound, hats off to you -- that was a gnarly day for a ski (especially one with a weedless rudder).
@@ThePaddleChannel That was my first (and one of my few ocean paddles). The only reason I won was I fell out a few times less than the other guys. Even the downwind leg was a bit challenging with the refractory waves off the beach. Looking forward to the Carolina cup this year.
Hi Alex, hope to meet you at the Carolina Cup this year, April 2022. Please introduce yourself. I am planning to race the Graveyard course in my Vega. (The boat that is in this video).
If you can handle this boat in the ocean then any increase in tippiness will be negligible on the flat (talking rivers here not just sheltered bays) once you get used to it. It will feel different though. You will catch less debris, which is a big disadvantage skis have racing against k1s when you cant stop to clear it, and of course in rivers less chance of hitting snags when cutting corners.
I used a 5'' rudder on flat water [mostly on the ocean] for a year before I replaced it with a 9'' elliptical one. [Flat on the ocean is not really flat though...] The 9'' did not slow me down but offered more stability and better catch on the waves [of course...] Never missed the 5'' since.
We might try to do more of our Totally Unscientific Testing to see if we see a speed difference. Barry did downwind with his flatwater rudder this week...it was a lesson in paddle steering... :)
Hi John, I agree. The 4 inch fin is more tippy but is faster in the flat water. I have ordered a mid length fin from Ozone / Kai Wa'a that looks to be in-between the 4'' fin and the downwind fin that I use in the bumps. I am looking forward to seeing how this mid-length fin goes.
I hope Johnny uses that recessed rudder design on all his future OC's. That is one smart design. I'm sure the smaller rudder has less drag than the full rudder, but the difference may not be great enough to translate into any measurable difference in speed in its actual use on the water.
Agreed -- that smaller rudder may make a difference if a race comes down to seconds, but only if the paddler and conditions allow sufficient stability. Thanks for your comment, Lehmann!
Hey, Alex, Rod here. Barry had the surf rudder in the Gen 1 V10. We don't have much seaweed, but on the intracoastal waterway we do have marsh grass/reeds that are a problem in Epic boats without a weed guard.
@@ThePaddleChannel Random question. Would you recommend a V10 g2 for a beginner? I'm looking at a used one for $2k. I've only done river & lake kayaking. Also there's a 135 mile flat water race coming up that I want to take a stab at. Would be nice to have a fast boat
@@paulwal222 that's a tough question. For most people, that model will be a challenge at first, so it really depends on your personality. If you don't mind falling out a lot and you're okay with a longer learning curve, it might be okay. Tackling a 135-mile race in that boat, if you're not accustomed to it, would be a significant challenge. When we first starting paddling surfski, our core gave out after about 45 minutes or so, even though we were accustomed to paddling several hours in the OC-1. Once the core gave out, stability was gone, and it wasn't that much fun, to be honest. Most experts recommend a more stable boat at first. Barry would say go for it. :)
@@ThePaddleChannel Haha, interesting. Thank you for the insight. I hadn't thought about that. Would a Vega Flex be a more reasonable alternative? Or equally as delusional?
@@paulwal222 The Flex is amazing, but would be a pretty similar experience. We recently had a chance to demo the new Arc...that is definitely one to check out. Very stable, with amazing performance on flat water and the ocean. The light weight and design make it feel like a "higher" performance boat, but with rock solid stability.
One of the local pros says when he uses the small rudder in a flat marathon race for steering he just leans a bit to turn the boat. Minimize the drag. He only uses the rudder for turns. Practice!
Hi Jim, I have been paddling more with the 4" fin. It is more tippy but I am getting used to it. If the bump / boat wake is big enough I have to really lean way back to keep the tiny fin engaged. Great balance training for sure!
@@barryblackburn5910 I've been using a medium weedless rudder on the flex for 8 months. We have so much eel grass in the sound and milfoil in the lakes and weed at the Gorge its about the only option. Works well as long as I don't have to use the rudder as a break on big steep waves. I try not to use the rudder much when transitioning which help me keep the speed up until I get to the next bigger wave to surf and then not surf at to big of an angle. I did get a 10 degree surf rudder but only used it few weed free weeks. It definitely let me put the boat exactly when I wanted it while surfing. Great for flow surfing. I'll try to use it again when I go down to the Gorge and just surf with a low heart rate.
It is a thing of stability vs ability, if your technical stability is good enough I guess you will gain some type of advantage using a smaller rudder, any stabilizer device (such as a larger rudder) will take away some of the movement energy.
The difficult call is determining where to draw the line, maybe...in very flat water, easy call. But in "kinda choppy" conditions, it would be a more difficult decision. We need to do some testing!
Looks like you answered your own question already. I have 4 or 5 rudders for my main downwind ski (Stellar) and swapping them out is so easy (but this isn't the same for all brands/designs). I love my 4" DK rudder, it does everything it's meant to and yes, less drag is faster if you're happy paddling it. In the flat I hardly notice any difference in stability. The only time I feel it is if I'm going downwind and the waves pick up to over a foot or two, then the 4" isn't able to get a hold on the water and I end up going sideways across the wave, unable to turn back down it. Getting away with the shortest rudder you can going downwind is also fun!
ps Like that recessed rudder on the Kai Wa'a. All skis should be like that.
That's good knowledge, thanks for sharing. We've heard good things about the 4" DK. It would be fun to change things up and downwind with the smaller fin!
Thanks for sharing. It seems like a you get a lot for your money with the Vega. Two rudders, a cover, and a full carbon boat. I've only used the small weedless rudder that came with my Epic v10. It's fine in the conditions I paddle in, but it wasn't so great when I raced the Surf to Sound in bigger conditions. Some of the guys I race with cut their weedless rudders in half or build really small rudders for the flatwater/river races.
Alex, the Vega Pro comes with both rudders and a deluxe cover. The non-pro comes with a single rudder and a standard cover -- still a lot for the money. If that was the last Surf to Sound, hats off to you -- that was a gnarly day for a ski (especially one with a weedless rudder).
@@ThePaddleChannel That was my first (and one of my few ocean paddles). The only reason I won was I fell out a few times less than the other guys. Even the downwind leg was a bit challenging with the refractory waves off the beach. Looking forward to the Carolina cup this year.
Hi Alex, hope to meet you at the Carolina Cup this year, April 2022. Please introduce yourself. I am planning to race the Graveyard course in my Vega. (The boat that is in this video).
If you can handle this boat in the ocean then any increase in tippiness will be negligible on the flat (talking rivers here not just sheltered bays) once you get used to it. It will feel different though. You will catch less debris, which is a big disadvantage skis have racing against k1s when you cant stop to clear it, and of course in rivers less chance of hitting snags when cutting corners.
That's a good point about the snags and debris...
I used a 5'' rudder on flat water [mostly on the ocean] for a year before I replaced it with a 9'' elliptical one. [Flat on the ocean is not really flat though...] The 9'' did not slow me down but offered more stability and better catch on the waves [of course...] Never missed the 5'' since.
Thanks for sharing -- it's great to hear what you've experienced!
I put a 4 inch Rudder on my V10 gen 3. It did make it a tad more Tippy but I do think it's a little faster.
We might try to do more of our Totally Unscientific Testing to see if we see a speed difference. Barry did downwind with his flatwater rudder this week...it was a lesson in paddle steering... :)
Hi John, I agree. The 4 inch fin is more tippy but is faster in the flat water. I have ordered a mid length fin from Ozone / Kai Wa'a that looks to be in-between the 4'' fin and the downwind fin that I use in the bumps. I am looking forward to seeing how this mid-length fin goes.
I hope Johnny uses that recessed rudder design on all his future OC's. That is one smart design. I'm sure the smaller rudder has less drag than the full rudder, but the difference may not be great enough to translate into any measurable difference in speed in its actual use on the water.
Agreed -- that smaller rudder may make a difference if a race comes down to seconds, but only if the paddler and conditions allow sufficient stability. Thanks for your comment, Lehmann!
What rudder(s) were you using on your original gen 1 v10 in the ocean? Do you have any problem with seaweed where you paddle?
Hey, Alex, Rod here. Barry had the surf rudder in the Gen 1 V10. We don't have much seaweed, but on the intracoastal waterway we do have marsh grass/reeds that are a problem in Epic boats without a weed guard.
@@ThePaddleChannel Random question. Would you recommend a V10 g2 for a beginner? I'm looking at a used one for $2k. I've only done river & lake kayaking. Also there's a 135 mile flat water race coming up that I want to take a stab at. Would be nice to have a fast boat
@@paulwal222 that's a tough question. For most people, that model will be a challenge at first, so it really depends on your personality. If you don't mind falling out a lot and you're okay with a longer learning curve, it might be okay. Tackling a 135-mile race in that boat, if you're not accustomed to it, would be a significant challenge. When we first starting paddling surfski, our core gave out after about 45 minutes or so, even though we were accustomed to paddling several hours in the OC-1. Once the core gave out, stability was gone, and it wasn't that much fun, to be honest. Most experts recommend a more stable boat at first. Barry would say go for it. :)
@@ThePaddleChannel Haha, interesting. Thank you for the insight. I hadn't thought about that. Would a Vega Flex be a more reasonable alternative? Or equally as delusional?
@@paulwal222 The Flex is amazing, but would be a pretty similar experience. We recently had a chance to demo the new Arc...that is definitely one to check out. Very stable, with amazing performance on flat water and the ocean. The light weight and design make it feel like a "higher" performance boat, but with rock solid stability.
One of the local pros says when he uses the small rudder in a flat marathon race for steering he just leans a bit to turn the boat. Minimize the drag. He only uses the rudder for turns. Practice!
That's a good point -- something to play with!
Hi Jim, I have been paddling more with the 4" fin. It is more tippy but I am getting used to it. If the bump / boat wake is big enough I have to really lean way back to keep the tiny fin engaged. Great balance training for sure!
@@barryblackburn5910 I've been using a medium weedless rudder on the flex for 8 months. We have so much eel grass in the sound and milfoil in the lakes and weed at the Gorge its about the only option. Works well as long as I don't have to use the rudder as a break on big steep waves. I try not to use the rudder much when transitioning which help me keep the speed up until I get to the next bigger wave to surf and then not surf at to big of an angle. I did get a 10 degree surf rudder but only used it few weed free weeks. It definitely let me put the boat exactly when I wanted it while surfing. Great for flow surfing. I'll try to use it again when I go down to the Gorge and just surf with a low heart rate.
It is a thing of stability vs ability, if your technical stability is good enough I guess you will gain some type of advantage using a smaller rudder, any stabilizer device (such as a larger rudder) will take away some of the movement energy.
The difficult call is determining where to draw the line, maybe...in very flat water, easy call. But in "kinda choppy" conditions, it would be a more difficult decision. We need to do some testing!
Probably not.