Cost Escalation In Commander What Is Coming For Players
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- Опубліковано 1 лис 2024
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Rise of the proxies!
Love the content, I am not first but I am lurking close behind
BOOMSTICK
I've been playing magic since 1998😅 playing Standard then moden. Then took a break from it. came back many years later. Then my oldest son was talking about it. I Was like hey I played that back in the day😅. So with all my older cards I have that I'm still playing to day❤
It all getting expensive. Until we "band" together, the high prices won't "phase out".
Won’t happen unfortunately. Can’t band together a bunch of pack cracking addicted mtg people. Wotc sells dopimine and like all drugs prices go up until the drug of choice shifts. 30 years in no new game has been able to collectively move the money and I doubt it ever will
@@MrMADMADHATTER1a pound of magic please 😅
For me it was simple. I just stopped buying the commander sealed products. They are usually good value, like the precons, looking at card value, but they cost more to preorder the set of 4 than my entire usual set order of a box, bundle, prerelease, sleeves, deck boxes, etc. $60+ dollars before tax is insane.
A tiered system makes sense. The power 9 can be tier 5 and they can drastically reduce or eliminate the ban list.
Goot morning MoxManiacs
First to the Key First to the Egg
@@MTGMOXMAN early bird 🐦
Boomstick MoxManiacs!
MTG Mod Man, I really enjoyed your video. I'm new to Commander, I've purchased March of Machines Cavalry Charge that I've played a few games with. I've also bought the Lord of the Rings Decks (keeping sealed) and Lost Caverns of Ixalan decks that I plan to play with and tweak. I basically think the Ixalan decks with dinosaurs, pirates, vampires, and merfolk will be fun.
@@jeffgipson5390 awesome !
The precons keep costing more and more. With many bulk cards.
Boomstick
Standard legal commander decks have been the same price for many years. If you’re worried about one deck going up in price just preorder from your store
@nineseven420empire3 They also keep getting better and better. Precons today are superior to the decks I was fielding 5 years ago, decks built after many 'arms race' escalations.
The Zendikar Rising and Kaldheim commander decks were lower price from the get go, also the case with the starter commander decks. The reason other sets have 100+ decks and 25 dollar decks is because as a store you can only order the sets as is, and the popular decks will be expensive, the not so popular ones will be the cheap ones.
Was looking at the Innistrad: Midnight hunt Wilhelt Precon, but after seeing >70$usd decided to build from scratch
Good luck building from scratch but it's probably cheaper to just buy it unless you have a lot of the cards already. Can't believe it's up to $65, the set of 4 (2 of each Midnight hunt deck) were going for $60-70 total for quite a while. I always say you can't go wrong preordering a Commander deck set or picking them up if they drop below preorder pricing no matter how bad it looks. I remember people actually questioning if a set of OTJ commander decks for $100 shipped was a bad deal.
This is a great point. I also think, outside of and before brackets, it’s great as a player to own at least one unadulterated, no substitutions, lower value precon commander deck, and especially when there’s newer players coming in, and then dictating “ok, this game will be unchanged precons worth a sealed value on TCGPlayer of $60 or less” or the like. Puts everybody at a more even playing field and just play casually. Yeah, build your decks to do what you’re looking for them to do for other games, use the brackets when available to determine power. But to bring in new players, have a precon or two sleeves up and unchanged so the power is low and easier to learn on!
Boomstick
That'd be fine if the precons weren't complete garbage.
Dollar value as any measure of power level never works because the value isn't usually about the deck but what the deck can do with other cards added or a few of the cards in the deck going in a different deck
BTW love he idea of putting brackets in the card design going forward to any dedicated created Commander card
What happens when they get the bracket wrong because they missed something? Oh well let it ruin the bracket? It wouldn't be prudent to add it to say the least
I think the argument about powercreep can be applied to precon commander decks as well. Many are much stronger than they were intially when released over a decade ago. For example, twice this past weekend I played in games were people played the new Duskmourn Endless punishment deck against "7"s and they won the pods.
Watch out for the miracle deck ;p
Its power creep in good way tho. With the same pre order price starting BLB we got really good precon and with better manabase too. BLB and DSM is prolly the best precon in long time in term of flavor and usability out of the box. And i wish they keep the streak going
Oh yes! Warlord was/is awesome! Nice to see it again after so many years!
BOOMSTICK
Suppy and demand rule everything!
I have been preordering the 4 pre-cons from the last three years from our LGS. Most of these cost $119.99. The special pre-cons are usually $139.99 for all 4. Thank you for the video Mox Man. Ramble Jamble. My two sons are really good at building Commander Decks. In the future if Wizards releases decks that are too expensive, we can make our own and use proxies since it is casual play.
I'm still thinking about your 65lb car battery story from yesterday's stream!
Boomstick!
My arms are still in pain
As far as I can remember commander sets have always been like this. It might have been even worse because there was only really one set of commander a year. There was always a deck or two that demanded a premium price tag due to its power and color combination. We are probably lucky that they put out so many sets in a year . If we weren't flooded with product I can think of about 10 decks off the top of my head that would be way more expensive.
Great vid Moxy, glad you made it!
I think that there is indeed going to be a big shakeup with the commander decks and that they will be producing decks for each bracket each set, as in 4 decks 1 for each bracket. I think that then special sets may have 4 decks that are like bracket 2 and then 4 that are bracket 4. I dont actually think they will make cEDH level decks, as they will loose too much card equity printing the likes of FoW and Mana crypt in them.
Boomstick!
That would be a terrible idea, stopping people from being able to each grab a deck from the new set and play each other.
Kind of like the beginner, intermediate, expert markings on booster packs back in the mid-late 90s, but on cards with a single character mark.
Agreed. Memberberries: Young me buying Portal for the sword and shield symbols on the cards LOL ;p
So when something like Grim Tutor from the Starter Set (Beginner level), ends up pretty powerful, does it stay a Beginner card since it's marked that way?
@@chim007azo ooo, good point. WotC may have lvl 2 intent, but players end up causing it to be a lvl 4 due to unseen interactions.
My favorite precon is definitely undead unleashed zombie deck it comes set with alot of what you need and you can easily add to it but it's already 70$ 😮
ouch
I could see "commander boosters" coming, where packs are just cards from the commander decks that don't appear in the main set.
@@jasonferguson9052 good comments
Putting indicators on printed cards is okay until they get overpowered by the next iteration and a bracket 3 card goes to bracket 2. Or 4 to 3. Or would they always remain in that group? Changes on printed cards would be about impossible to keep track of, you can't cross out some identifier just because the card moved between ranks. 😀
Good Point-
I just wish they’d slow down on product in general so we could spend time actually being able to enjoy each set. It’s overwhelming. Personally I’ve moved to “justify purchasing X card for X deck or don’t buy anything at all”. I refuse to buy anything sealed at this point sadly and having multiples of anything expensive (besides reserve list) is just a waste because they’ll just reprint it. It’s a weird place to be in.
I agree in terms of keeping up with purchases, but one good side effect is they've made the meta much harder to solve under the sheer weight of releases. Things aren't solved anywhere as quickly as they used to be.
I’m just living my best bloomburrow snuggly animal life and ignoring anything else for a year lol
@@eliotopian I know right. At this point that’s how we have to be. Pick the set we like most and pretend nothing else exists. I go for a few singles and just ignore everything else.
@@eliotopian Bloomburrow is amazing btw!
Printing the "bracket" rating on the card itself is a bad idea because I expect those values will change over time, especially as power creep continues. It's confusing enough when a card that's been printed at Rare multiple times gets "downshifted" to an Uncommon XD
I can't wait for those CMM Slivers and Dragons to go down in prices
Everybody is going to catch up with me eventually.
I have always been a five colour commmander player, starting with General Tazri, then moving on to Jegantha the wellspring, I kept the same mana base whilst changing most of the other cards. It became an interchangeable five colour monster, but over time the number of "staples" in the deck was leaving almost no room for themes or even tuning.
When I mad enthe spiteful decision to say FU to my local playgroup and install "child of alara" as my commander, it was frankly freeing.
All of a sudden sil ring wasnt quite as good as you are going to wrath everything all the time.
But scyclave relic gets its time to shine.....
Now the deck is full of deadly jank which seriously concerns me about the upcoming bracket system. It is one of the most deadly and oppressive home brews i have ever built, but if i simpy take out the single vampiric turor it would probably (and very unfairly) be a bracket 1.
I have noticed the last few years the prices are making it more cost prohibitive for sure, have to wait for sales and grab some
Boomstick
#BOOMSTICK
Product is expensive, that’s for sure.
I know this would be a lot but, I think a possibility would be for WOC to make 2 decks of each tier for each set.
Commander is such an open format. You can build budget builds that are still very playable.
I think it's crazy how much more products there are now compared to commander in 2019.
I think it's crazy how much more eggs cost than in 2019
The price is getting pretty high but so are other board games and hobbies, I am fine waiting and getting a few deals where I see them.
Precons are what are too expensive, brewing a budget commander deck isn’t too bad still. Channels like Commanders Quarters are really nice for budget build videos. He just put out a 15$ Ashnod, Flesh Mechanist build that actually slaps really hard.
Also most of your examples are the “dud” decks from each set. Unfortunately the big hit decks from each set are the ones that double/triple in price like Elven Ambush or Reap the Tides because they’re so powerful
Preconstructed Decks are absolutely the best way to get into the format. I only got into it in 2022 at the end of the year. They might not have the best interaction and their wincons are sometimes unclear. It doesn't cost much to upgrade them.
Seeing your prices from a couple years ago to today's prices are a bit staggering though.
Extremely expensive, for such a casual format the costs to field a decent, non precon deck, is getting outta hand
Yeah so many players I know now wait for sales
Brawl is the format that would actually be affordable on all levels, it's just hasn't catch on too much yet.
Now if the Tier system works there is a very good chunk of cards that are both RL and really powerful so unless you don't want Tier 4/CEDH it will be slightly cheaper without those and other really expensive staples like Mana Vault and such. However when your format goes back as far as vintage high cost will be inevitable: Commander players will keep optimizing until the only other place to optimize is RL cards, fast mana, etc.
Why would it be cheaper?
I would not want to see brackets / tiers printed on a card.
How many cards have we seen become obsolete over time, how many cards would need to be bumped up a tier because WotC is taking 'salt factor' into account and a new card makes another obnoxious combo that upsets the table?
@@keywacat very good comments
Proxy all cards that are $20 or above. That way you don't get burned from this. If you have all the expensive cards and they are real, keep them; but don't buy any new ones. That's what I'm doing. Its too volatile in the game now. Give it a couple years and check back in.
My question always goes to slippery slope and why X dollar point? Do what you want, but singles are the best profit makers for LGS and what keeps the game alive.
@@chim007azo I understand, but I believe the commander community isn't like the tournament community. I believe because Wizards runs commander now, bans will be done solely on profit projections. They were the ones that pushed the rules committee to allow silver boarder cards so they can sell more cards. That's not hypothetical, that happened. The Commander base will tire of the format allowing broken cards to pad Wizards profits. When Wizards inevitably bans the broken cards that everybody has already paid for, there will be backlash because people will loose more money. I know about 20 people who will be proxing expensive cards moving forward.
Also, why X dollar point? It makes you have to spend some money in the game instead of having a full deck of proxies. That way Wizards get the money it deserves, but not the profits they are trying to get from over inflating the card prices.
Play COMMANDER 1999. It's a format where players play as normal, but if at any time their board is worth more than $20, they're instantly thrown into OBLIVION. OBLIVION is a side zone where players compete to see who can win there. So you have an OBLIVION and a COMMANDER winner at the end.
Why on earth would WotC want just one of the precons in a set to be worth something? They don't see a dime of any jacked up secondary sales.
But they do get stores being pissed that they have unsold product on their shelves when only 1-2 of the decks sell well.
My LGS does +$20, +$10, -$10, -$20 for the precons. They all sell evenly and everyone is happy. It works really well, this way beginners have a precon in every release.
I own so many cards that in the most decks im missing just 20% of the cards. I buy only singles. I dont need 30 exotic orchards.
I like the idea of precons, but wotc should stick to a tier 1-2 precon and it's up to you to build it from there. WotC should not be in the biz of building a deck for you.
Used to buy most precons.. since commander masters decks, I have brought only two for similar to my old reasons, the dinosaur one and the recent merfolk one.. Wizards are going to have to make me actually want to buy the precon for me such as the recent bloomburrow decks, ms bumbleflower and zinnia for pollywog prodigy.
Thats the thing, I like specific things and I invest into those specific things, if the decks dont have cards I want, I just wont buy anymore, this higher price point is not for me, the same as these "play boosters", the value just isnt there and I will stick to singles.
Sliver Swarm's still around 80€ in Europe
Buy singles play w what you have it's all gravy baby
Boomstick 💥
everytime I see your name tombboy I think of Satima for some reason with that sword dude
I have so many ideas for what WotC is planning. They could sell precons as tiers, just imagine a set releasing with 4 variations of each EDH deck, like "Oh you can get the basic version for 30$ or you can get the one with XYZ tier 4 cards for 300$." But i think your idea makes a lot of sense, I bet there will be some kind of tier indicator (roman numerals probably?) down near the set number/copyright/artist info.
What happens when they misjudge the power and get the bracket wrong? You know, mistakes they already make all the time.
I think the tiers get hard to judge because some cards on their own are good but when combo'd blow up. I'd be shocked if they tier every card or use a warhammer point system to define tiers. I do think it has more to do with Marketing & Making money then it does about making the games balanced and even. Sorry, just my salty view of WotC for the past year.
You don't do an every card has a value point system, that would be an insane amount of work to keep tracked. The Prof did a good video on how giving the real difference makers point values works.
Nope already to expensive singles or nothing at this point an recommended to anyone i know or thinking of getting into mtg.
March of the machine has a good deck knight it goes for 100$ cnd
Play what ever you own
Of course the most popular format will become the most expensive over time. It’s simple math. The power levels will keep growing and so will cost to keep up. That’s how they want it. It was inevitable as the meta becomes all and casual is simply a word left as a vestigial remnant that means nothing.
You can't add bracket to a card, that would be a disaster if it changes later.
Sliver swarm is like $90 right now… where you get these prices man?
The shop's online website. The prices are for a comparison at the same seller as an example of entry points, not a market watch
Distributors are so predatory towards stores and consumers. Product pricing should never be influenced by demand, this is a fully prepared and packaged product, not raw lumber. WotC should crack down on distributors and stores fleecing their consumers.
If they did, WotC wouldn't really be able to defend selling decks as a set. They're not going to change that, because if they start making more of the deck they think will sell more and get it wrong, it would be horrible for them. As soon as they force retailers to sell at a certain price, it's no longer worth it for stores to break down the sets. They'll just order less and only sell by full sets. You already see online retailers doing this, where at a certain point where the less popular decks don't sell anymore, they only sell full sets when they restock, instead of breaking them down to sell the good deck and being stuck with bad ones. Sure if you want to have to buy full sets, by all means push for MAC pricing. I can't believe how many people just spout things off without thinking it through
MOXMAAAAAAAAAAAN!😅
WOOOOOOOOT
@@MTGMOXMAN Mox what!? Moxman! Mox what!? Moxman! Mox what? Mox man!? Rich what!? RICHMOND!!!!!!! :D
One deck being better than another in commander precons has ALWAYS been a thing from the first. Not a new concept. If one deck had a great chase card, it was sold out ASAP.
That's not something that happens all the time. Elven Empire was $20 or less for a looooooong time. Now it's $80-100. There's plenty of examples like that. Olivia OTJ deck was trash until it wasn't.
❤❤❤
Just wait when the marvel precons drop for 80 a pop
@@Dasweetkiller scary but honestly like true or a variation at that price with some cool bling
I think there is a point when you realize that if you bought another Commander deck your getting 80% repeats and the few new cards are far cheaper than the deck= Buy Singles :P
Only if you already have the reprints. Took me like 6 months to flesh out my last 2 decks, because I wasn't paying $2-3 for 0.50 cent commons I didn't have. I upgraded Mothman in like 2 weeks
How long does it take for decks to go out of print anyway?
There is no set time. Sets used to be printed for about 2 years unless a set was really rejected then about 1 year. Now it's been harder to tell but BRO just went officially OOP, so maybe still the same? Commander decks are usually 1 printing and done unless the demand is high enough for another wave. Again no set time. Warhammer had 3 to 5 waves. Lost Caverns definitely got a second wave.
@@chim007azo ah okay thanks for the info!
It's our own fault for paying high prices.
I really hope they don't put a stamp on the number of the card saying it is tier 5, because one of the things is you are trying to hide as much info as possible. Yesterday we played and this guy was so powerful and he said he has this and this then if you guys do this to me I'll do that and that. So the pod teamed and coordinated a strategy and he was the first to lose. I really don't like these power numbers. I hope they drop it.
I don’t think your monopoly analogy really fits here.
Soldevi Excavations being a bracket 5 would be a tragedy! Soldevi Excavations belongs in every deck!
SODLEVI!@!!!
Boomstick 💢
Imagine how chaotic it would be if "60 card" was just a format and you had to have a rule 0 to see if someome has a legacy sneak and show deck, or a pioneer vampire tribal. The formats (vintage, legacy, modern, pioneer) give great structure for players to defer to different power levels. I'm certain, philosophically, the 4 brackets will mirror the 4 "formats". Just the curation of cards that are legal in each bracket will be driven from a different perspective of gameplay/goals.
Technically vintage exists as a fine format and at most restricts 1 copy. I dont see why bracket 4 couldn't be everything legal/vintage power commander. Level 3 could still be what most consider "cedh". Bracket 1 will probably be precons, having some precons brushing the low end of Bracket 2, or making Bracket 2 via a few cards. "Junk/jank" piles should not be regarded as a balance around aspect of commander. If people want to use sub bracket 1 power decks that's on them. Bracket 1 will have a $25 to $50 entry level. Thats good.
Kitchen table commander will always be kitchen table commander. Just as some people simply play 60 card at home and nobody mentions formats. I think this is extremely good for the format.
Honestly, I think players are partially responsible if not, mostly responsible for the price climb in commander, the constant demand for better cards to be included pushes wizards to put those cards in there and know that they can charge more
I've never heard anyone demand power creep in a commander deck.
@@chim007azo what? You can’t be serious…
@@adamgarcia5616 you can’t be serious. Feel free to point to anything.
Who would buy a precon for $1000 lmao
Someone who $1000 doesn't mean anything to. Same as old boxes. Lot's of people would say "who spends $100 on a precon," but then you have Eldrazi incursion regularly selling.
Stop buying magic. Print the cards.
Hear me out, doesn't the bracket system already exist in MTG. C,U,R,M. 🤔
Boomstick 💥
WOOT BOOMSTICK