Also trying to bump this for funny comments of the week instead of uninspired Richard-hate. Save the comments for when you see him in Vegas or other cons, or not at all.
@@Wobbegong1234 bro if my SO buys a magic card instead of a house key for me I'm all in she's a keeper cuz she plays magic. But like I'll still be salty tho
Crim, Seth and Tomer: This card is good but it isn't worth the ridiculous price Richard, taking a long drag of a cigarette: the last man who tried putting Fierce Guardianship in my deck was found cold and dead in a ditch
Richard logic be like “commanders are constantly being removed nowadays, so a free counterspell that saves your commander from any removal spell is obviously garbage!”
I think its more due to using counters to: A) Stiffle your opponents combo. B) Protect your combo. Which for both it does not do that well due to the fact it requires your commander, making it easier to play around.
@@metatron8578 The problem is that there really aren't decent "budget" alternatives to free counterspells. So, if you can't pay 0 mana for a counterspell the next best place is 1 mana where there are lots of great budget pieces.
Tomer is right, one opponent's commander could literally say "when this creature enters the battlefield you win the game" and you will get gunned down by the other two for having a Drannith Magistrate
Played a game exactly like this. 3 do not much commanders, including mine, staring down the jeskai offspring commander and I was the bad guy for having Drannith Magistrate. Lost half my life, chump blocked, and every single turn after that was about the table trying (and failing) to not die to the jeskai deck.
This man is consistent. He did say in the free spell bracket that he thought Pact of Negation was the best free counterspell over Fierce Guardianship and Force of Will Edit: This was also the same man who did indeed bait out Cam's Fierce Guardianship on Play to Win with Swords to Plowshares and proceeded to Generous Gift Underworld Breach causing Cam to be the first to lose the game.
@@alexliang1040I went back and watched two episodes with him in them from 3 years ago. He plays Ardenn/Rograkh. The second game is the galaxy brain play.
I've been sitting in silence for 10 mins just trying to begin wrapping my head around Richard hating a free counter spell that could protect your commander, in the world he set the table for, where people are always coming for your commander. Just wild lmao
@@Leviathan894I’m 100% convinced he’s doing it to bait people into making comments. If everybody says fierce is good nobody will say something but if Richard plays the bad guy with dumb takes the comment section will be full.
@@jackalvonstone250 I know he doesn’t play it but I think that’s part of the bait because he constantly mentions how much he doesn’t play it. I just refuse to believe he’s that dumb
A fun podcast topic would be each of you coming up with the five cards that best represent you in commander. So like Phil's Spellbook would be: Lunar Force Agent of Treachery Last March of the Ents Lonis Tireless Tracker
And almost all the conclusions are "no these cards are pretty good..." I guess it's a discussion point rather than an actual "budget commander" article going over replacements
Richard's commander takes were so good that they've experienced an overflow error and are all just...bad. Richard...you're having trouble sticking your commander *because you aren't running Fierce Guardianship.*
I think his point about having Fierce Guardianship in hand and someone trying to remove your commander basically forces you to use it, which makes it kinda less like a consistent free counterspell you can use to push through a win and more like a protection spell with extra utility. I think you could even argue that in a board wipe heavy meta Fierce Guardianship is worse than a normal protection spell because it helps your opponents too. He should probably just play more counterspells in general though lol
I think Deflecting Swat is a better commander protection spell than Fierce Guardianship. I think Pact is a better counterspell to protect your winning play with. Fierce Guardianship is the best card at doing both of those things in one card.
@@PalPlays when someone is removing your commander they're usually doing it with single target removal like swords. When you counter a single target removal, you and that player are down a card vs the other two people. When you redirect, you can mitigate that by hitting a third player and only being down a card vs one player instead of two. Or you can blow them out and 2 for 1 the one player
I feel like the crew is approaching the ramp, fog, and wrath singularity. If you play assuming creatures will just always die, then you'll all end up playing pillowfort or draw go control. LOL
And just like the kid from school who had to wear a plain shirt 2 sizes too big, because their parents wanted to save money, everyone will play with you.
@@ElisaKaysCauldron It’s closer than I thought, but the prevalence of Rog Si is probably skewing the numbers a bit imo. In the past month there are 403 top 16s with Fierce, only 380 with Pact. Source is MTGtop8
If you see counters as being for protecting your combo/stopping your opponent's combos it makes sense and is correct. Fierce isn't really good for that because it requires your commander and is thus way easier to play around.
Y’all missed the part of the analysis on Great Henge that those other green card draw spells can largely get dumpstered by an instant-speed bounce/removal/phase out on your big creature. Once Great Henge is on the stack, it’s too late for opponents to respond.
Regarding tutors and lands. You can also play less lands, and 0 tutors - if you run cheap efficient card draw. Cards like Chart a Course, Winged Words, Glimpse the Impossible, and Night’s Whispers do wonders for letting you hit your land drops.
The alternative to every single one of these is "pretend they dont exist". None of these are required to make a strong deck for casual play (not cEDH or high powered casual).
I think part of the disconnect is that fierce isn't an all-purpose counterspell. It's pretty much a protection spell for your commander that also has additional utility sometimes. I don't run it in the counterspell slots of my decks. If you try conceptualizing it that way, you might find yourself finding a home for it more often.
You're right. It goes with the flawless maneuver/clever concealment package, and generally just in decks that require you to have many permanents to do the thing.
In my experience ive not had a game where the great henge came down and didnt immediately take over the game. Meathook is in a similar boat where it just does insane work, though, since it doesn't draw cards its more under the radar on how impactful it is
One thing I've noticed with Richard's card evaluation is that he likes comparing cards 1:1 too much. Fierce Guardianship and Pact of Negation are very different cards; there's more to them then just being "0 mana counterspell". Figuring out the one you actually want to run is very deck-dependent. You gotta lean into a quadrant-theory-style of thinking a little more.
most of richard's takes also involve him talking about being able to win the game right now. Pact is incredible if you can win NOW but if you can't it's insanely fucking dead in your hand meaning it's not flexible AT ALL. Force is flexible as long as you have another blue card in hand, but you DO go down a card. Fierce is GOD TIER if you ever play your fucking commander which most people DO while some people on clash really just don't a lot of the time... When you look at clash honestly like offer you can't refuse and even regular counterspell end up being kind of the best counterspells??? but even then they tend to tap out lol if I'm ever playing against anybody other than Crim I'm not afraid to run out ANYTHING I want especially if I have a counter in hand cuz there's 0 chance they have interaction for my board lol easiest famous commander players to body if you want to.
I feel like Richard does not get the props he deserves as a business owner. I think he has put in a lot of work to get to where he is at, is thoughtful about the people he hires, and has a good business mind. He s someone that i could call a friend as well as a boss.
I agree that running The One Ring everywhere is boring but I think Richard is misevaluating it on its base level. You will almost always get 2 activations from it barring a Questing Beast like effect meaning it is 4 mana, draw 3, lose 1 life, fog
The One Ring is at its best when you can use its draw ability to chain into a new one ring and keep the protection going. That’s why it’s a modern staple but not as good in commander. Still an incredible card even not at its best, but I can definitely see Richard’s point.
I can't believe Richard didn't use the Richard argument for The One Ring. It gets you killed and it's too slow to protect you past the 1 turn of protection.
Richard has said it's so powerful it wins a 1v3. So even though it makes you arch enemy. It's still one of the best cards you can play. It's just not a fun card.
The One Ring has precisely one Commander deck I've found it useful overall in and that Commander is also edging around the $65-70 mark (Sheoldred the Apocalypse). Otherwise, is almost entirely useless.
@@blueredlover1060 can it though. I checked the brackets and for all the tournaments in my area, I can't. Roffellos is also a legendary creature. It all depends on which bracket of the ban list we're talking about.
I think the main difference between pact of negation and fierce guardian ship is: pact is a combo protection counter that sometimes if neccessary can be used to protect your commander and. Fierce is a commander pritection counter that sometimes can be used to protect your combo if it hadn't to be used earlier.
Guardianship could’ve been made more fair if it was this: 2U - Instant If you target a noncreature spell that targets your commander, you may cast this spell without paying its mana cost. Counter target noncreature spell.
@@deifiedtitan That would be a brillant card design I like that a lot I would say with the current powercreep you could in that case even make it blue blue instead of 2 and blue. This would just make it a little bit powercrept negate that is a little harder to cast.
"its bad because it dies to farewell!" lol yep everythings bad vs farewell (except maybe nezahal the best blue creature, who also triggers guardian project everytime it comes back!)
Here’s how you test this Richard. Play Pact of Negation make a note on your phone and tally how many times you wish it was Fierce Guardianship / you wouldn’t have lost if it was.
0:33 I agree with Tomer, I think the land base episode y’all did. Someone was annoyed I suggested to use more common dual lands with the land types. Instead of shocks if you can’t afford them. Which helps run cheaper rare lands such as check lands. As well as ramp that searches for the land type. 😂
"Just don't play the best cards" doesn't work in the current edh format. In brackets we'll definitely play the next best alternatives- but those cards will become pricier as a result...
This. The focus on rule zero and “self restraint” doesn’t work in reality in the wild. The purpose of ban lists is to facilitate games between random players and you can’t trust random players to handicap themselves for “fun”
@@Lazydino59 indeed. In the brackets people may not play great henge, but they will still play rishkar's expertise and last march of the ents. Craterhoof might be off limits, but they can still play overrun. Each bracket will develop it's own meta and it's own definition of "over powered staples". The only saving grace is that those cards won't be the current staples.
This is only true if 1. People fully adopt the brackets and 2. These cards don't end up at 3 where most decks probably do. The brackets also aren't ban lists. Nothing stops you from running a mostly 2 or 3 bracket deck but having that one 4 card and still playing against 2s
This whole discussion raises the question of what will happen to the prices of some of these cards if they end up in bracket 3 or 4. Depending on how much play groups and players in general expect you to stick to brackets, having a single bracket 4 card in your deck could mean that you have to buy a bunch more for your deck to hold its own, that might make them less popular. It's hard to imagine a card that can't be included as easily as before retaining 100% of its value. That might be good for players, but only those that haven't just spent $50+ on one of those cards.
Tomer saying Guardian Project is overrated is the lowkey the hottest take of the episode. In a singleton format, a hard to remove permanent that says whenever a nontoken enters under your control draw a card is pretty cracked, it's in all of my green creature decks for a good reason.
I think pact of negation is really strong in simic or ugx decks, you have so much mana that the 5mana cost next turn is negligible. Is it better than fierce? Depends on the commander cost and meta to counter creatures but both are so good that you might as well run both if you want to tune the deck to the max.
If I remember correctly, Drannith spiked from being a sideboard tech in Pioneer when the discover Geological Appraiser combo was prevalent before the ban.
Kind of a corner case but my mono-blue voltron deck almost always has my commander out and has protection for days (phasing, hexproof, counters) so Fierce is amazing in there
Richards take on fierce guardianship has extremely poor logic. It literally is the spell that keeps you commander on the battlefield and is perfectly passable as a 3 mana counter if comes down to it. Typically agree with Richard on stuff like spot removal but not a good or well thought out take.
This comes off as Insulting a member of our community's intelligence. Please be better, take time for self reflection and reduce the vitriol you are contributing in our community.
@@Pug8 edited comment, wasn't trying to insult but to call out poor logic on his take. However it did look bad, so switched it to be more line what I was trying to say. Apologies, will consider more accurate language in the future
My predictions for this (every) weeks podcast - Seth will over react the entire cast but close it out by tell the audience not to over react - Tomer will be cautiously optimistic - Crim will continue to be the voice of reason - Richard will realize yet again that he is, in fact, very old
Everyone: (*Freaking out over Richard’s latest insane take*) Richard, watching another comment about him rise to the top and get hundreds of engagements: “Excellent…”
Tomer: "I don't understand why I either win or get knocked out first." Also Tomer: "If you're not drawing 10 cards at once and terrifying everyone, what are we even doing here?" Richard: "Casting my commander could put a target on me. On an unrelated note, no idea why I win every season."
The reason the Stranger Things reprints are so cheap is they had a VERY plentiful reprint as universes within cards in New Capenna. You basically got one of the cards every 4th set booster you opened. No other reprints have come even remotely close to this volume.
Except it's less consistent than having redundancy for all your key effects. It finds you your graveyard silver bullet but you've not lost consistency for every other silver bullet
I stead of the great henge I run gurraks uprising and tribute to the world tree - gain trample and draw a card every time a monster with 4+ power comes in from uprising and world tree adds counters to push for a 2nd draw from gurraks uprising and also draws you a card when 3+ power comes in. If you can get both out, you’ll never struggle for hand
Fierce Guardianship counters Farwell than on your turn cast your Farwell. They cast Pack of Negation minus 5 mana for turn. Untap Up Keep pays 5 mana Draw plays land pass. Huge temp. Huge.
I am still happy that I bought The One Ring last year for 60€ hence I knew how good it is through the Goldfish Podcast and I can say it is so obnoxiously strong I won almost every game where I casted it.
Avacyn obviously isn't what she once was, but I will say she can still be annoyingly difficult to deal with if you design your deck around her. Get her Hexproof or Protection, and suddenly the only reliable way to get rid of her is stuff like Farewell, Cyclonic Rift, Toxic Deluge, etc. Which isn't a small list of cards, but is a manageable one if they're all your worried about.
Watching Richard is like watching a clip from *insert news network you hate here* , I disagree so much with what's being said but I can't look away when I see a clip
I haven't played a single blue deck lately and thought "oh, this fierce is a really bad card, i wish it was a pact of negation". it saved my ass from stupid combos all the time, stopped multiple farewells,... such a good card. is it worth its price? hell no. is it a blue staple? hell yes.
Regarding OG duals, their price is absolutely ridiculous for what they do, BUT having them gives an indescribable feeling of “compleation” to your deck.
Meathook is an awful wrath, I wouldn't play it unless I have a lot of stuff to trigger it with. It's very good at triggering repeatedly, but I would almost never put it in as my wrath slot.
I run Radagast the Brown instead of Beast Whisperer or Guardian project in a lot of decks. The card selection is great and its not a "draw" so you can't get blown out by bowmasters.
Drannith Magistrate will slow down all those 3-4 MV value engine commanders delaying their ability to run away with advantage. Getting hated out is far more meta dependent. Locally salty cards are common so the heat doesn't last. Plus, if you build a deck to be less commander focused, another player dropping the magistrate is often a boon (assuming the 99 also doesn't rely on casting from elsewhere).
When Richard says things like "buying Lara Croft or The Fourteenth Doctor isn't something you do because they're a good card, it's something you do because you love the character, and that makes it worth buying" it's so real, it's such a good understanding of Commander that it shocks me.
It's an obvious take though. There aren't many of the mechanically unique SL cards that are generically good like Rick is for humans, most are niche, novel commanders like Lara Croft that don't fit particularly well in other decks. I don't honestly think many of these cards see play in a lot of other decks, their price is only high for their availability, not because there is a lot of demand.
@Benjammn A take so obvious Seth immediately argued with him haha. One of the things that makes this podcast interesting is that the crew are predominantly 60 card competitive players whose opinions are incredibly influenced by that fact. Richard dropping the "subjectivity/nuance over objective analysis" is the most "Commander Woke" thing the podcast has ever seen
@donb7519 He's not wrong that the argument can be applied to any given card in good or bad faith, but not every card is $40+, so the question of objective vs. subjective value isn't as important. That's the problem with value judgements in Commander specifically. It's a format that appeals to self expression over competitive motivation, so anybody can justify any inclusion in their deck simply by saying "I want to play it, so I will"
55:50 Indestructibility still has a ton of use for combat, both defensively and offensively. Mass indestructible no longer is as good against boardwipes, but that's not all it's for
I completely agree with Richard, under some asterisks. My only blue deck at the moment, is my Esper Oloro deck. In that deck, I do not care about Fierce guardianship because it is functionally always a 4-mana negate. But why would I cast Oloro?
This podcast is really interesting since a lot of the card arguments I feel fall more under play style/ play philosophy first and then price as the justification. Fierce Guardianship for Richard “my opponents will expend their resources”, Demonic Tutor for Crim “I don’t like tutors”, Great Henge for Tomer “burst draw is better than incremental draw” and Secret Lairs for Seth “what’s an x-men?” This podcast didn’t really change my mind on any of the cards brought up since every card comes from a personal standpoint rather than an actual card power to price imbalance that isn’t justified.
I have Varina Zombies. Varina is there simply for her colors; she doesn't need to move from the command zone at all. Fierce is entirely pointless in that deck.
I thought this would be a "Richard and Crim have bad takes" episode but once Richard said that if Demonic Tutor couldn't find lands it would go down in value for him I knew he was trolling us all.
Great Henge is an Artifact. Very little synergy in green decks for Artifacts. Also it is a removal target. I play artifact wipes in Green decks and have taken out my artifacts.
These are all some of the best cards in edh (excluding secret lair). Worth every penny IF your playgroup plays on the same power level. Otherwise you are spending a lot of money just to realize that you feel bad for playing them.
I really think they need to do a Texas Chainsaw Massacre secret lair, with art inspired from scenes in the movies - Meathook Massacre spells with art showing the killing gallery, VIllage Rites with the banquet, Deadly Rollick with leatherface spinning around with the chainsaw, etc. Would SOOO build a whole deck around that.
I have to agree with Richard on The One Ring. When the card was first spoiled I said it is not that good. After a year of playing with and against it, I can say it really isn’t that good. I tried to make it good, jamming it in almost every deck. If you can abuse it then it becomes the best card in your deck. By abuse I mean combo with it to draw your entire deck. In cEDH, especially tournament play, it is way too slow and the protection means nothing. When games are decided turn two and three The One Ring is a dead card in your deck. In casual where games tend to go longer it may be good incremental value, but there are better card draw spells and effects. Currently I have Th One Ring in one deck, Sméagol Helpful Guide. For the flavor only as it is a Lord of The Rungs deck with LOTR art down to the map basics from the set.
surprised with the take on Avacyn. There are exile effects, but not that much. Certainly depends on the table, but I'm still finding it asks a tough question that leads to a lot of wins.
Just wanna say that for whatever reason I love doubling season and bought one because of that. I totally agree that it is probably not worth the price especially with so many other doublers out there but I still love it.
I understand where they’re coming from on the One Ring, but it’s very funny to me to say “I’m not going to run the One Ring because of price,” and then recommend Trouble in Pairs ($20+), Rhystic Study ($30+), Last March of the Ents ($22+). Like, 1. You need more than 4 card draw spells in every deck, and 2. All of these cards are expensive, while being locked to certain colors. When you buy the One Ring you’re buying a card draw spell you can put in absolutely everything, which makes its price a little more understandable for me. Now would I pay $70 for it? No, but that’s why I picked it up when it dropped in price to like $35 around the Modern bnr 😅
I would add for commander: the green overlord. Its 3 mana for a tapped land or 5 for it plus a medium boddy without relevant abilities ... Even in 5 colours you stil need double green on turn 3 .... For commander not worth the price... The artwork is very cool though😊
I had hard time finding enough wizards in b/wf or the party time precon. Drannith Magistrate is only 2 and a wizard! It goes in! There's just not that many out there.
I completly agree with Crim on tutors. YOu can run any combo you'd like and I'll think it's fair as long as it's not tutored for. But then again, to each it's own.
Good point about indestructible. Its not that great anymore. Toxic Deluge, Farewell, Cyclonic Rift, Swords, Path, Sheoldreds Edict, reality shift, chaos warp, etc etc etc. everything that people play ignores indestructible these days
Surely the number one reason to skip on Fierce Guardianship is having the money to get your boyfriend a key to the apartment.
Bumping this so the next comment of the week can be something actually funny instead of Richards rancid takes yet again lol
Also trying to bump this for funny comments of the week instead of uninspired Richard-hate. Save the comments for when you see him in Vegas or other cons, or not at all.
I want this to be featured. It would be so funny.
This is hilarious. Definitely deserves the feature
@@Wobbegong1234 bro if my SO buys a magic card instead of a house key for me I'm all in she's a keeper cuz she plays magic. But like I'll still be salty tho
Crim, Seth and Tomer: This card is good but it isn't worth the ridiculous price
Richard, taking a long drag of a cigarette: the last man who tried putting Fierce Guardianship in my deck was found cold and dead in a ditch
Richard logic be like “commanders are constantly being removed nowadays, so a free counterspell that saves your commander from any removal spell is obviously garbage!”
Yeah it seems like a misunderstanding of what the card is.
I think its more due to using counters to:
A) Stiffle your opponents combo.
B) Protect your combo.
Which for both it does not do that well due to the fact it requires your commander, making it easier to play around.
I am so sick of these garbage hot takes.
Yeah, the card plays best if played as if it says "counter target spell that targets your commander" except it also counters wraths.
EXACTLY
I think a budget alternative to Fierce Guardianship is Stubborn Denial. If your commander has 4+ power it is only 1 mana to cost.
spell pierce can work wonders as well, as well as offer you can't refuse
Well, if we start with that, actual Counterspell is only one more mana than that.
@@metatron8578 The problem is that there really aren't decent "budget" alternatives to free counterspells. So, if you can't pay 0 mana for a counterspell the next best place is 1 mana where there are lots of great budget pieces.
One mana is a lot, which is also why stubborn is notably worse than guardianship, but keeping 2 blue up is also notably more sus
Bolt bend is also sick
Richard: this week we'll talk about budget!
Tomer "Budget" Commander: it's show time
Tomer is right, one opponent's commander could literally say "when this creature enters the battlefield you win the game" and you will get gunned down by the other two for having a Drannith Magistrate
Played a game exactly like this. 3 do not much commanders, including mine, staring down the jeskai offspring commander and I was the bad guy for having Drannith Magistrate. Lost half my life, chump blocked, and every single turn after that was about the table trying (and failing) to not die to the jeskai deck.
This man is consistent. He did say in the free spell bracket that he thought Pact of Negation was the best free counterspell over Fierce Guardianship and Force of Will
Edit: This was also the same man who did indeed bait out Cam's Fierce Guardianship on Play to Win with Swords to Plowshares and proceeded to Generous Gift Underworld Breach causing Cam to be the first to lose the game.
Richard was on play to win??
@@alexliang1040I went back and watched two episodes with him in them from 3 years ago. He plays Ardenn/Rograkh. The second game is the galaxy brain play.
@@mrbelbobaggins8959 Tomer with the assist
I've been sitting in silence for 10 mins just trying to begin wrapping my head around Richard hating a free counter spell that could protect your commander, in the world he set the table for, where people are always coming for your commander. Just wild lmao
But also everyone else will have the spot removal, because he doesn’t run that.
It's an odd leap of logic. My commander dies a lot -> This spell is only free if I have my commander -> This spell is not reliably free.
That's because Richard loves playing uncommon commanders and jank ones that provide him low amounts of value and aren't an engine
Here’s the secret to understanding Richard logic: he does it for the engagement. No insane takes = no comments about insane takes
@@andyspendlove1019can’t people are still saying this about Richard’s decks! You can look them up, the man really doesn’t run Sword to Plowshares!
15:01 richard: “it’s really hard to stick my commander”
The rest of the crew : that’s the point of fierce.
Richard’s logic filter is clogged.
@@Leviathan894I’m 100% convinced he’s doing it to bait people into making comments. If everybody says fierce is good nobody will say something but if Richard plays the bad guy with dumb takes the comment section will be full.
@@peewee0224 Nah, he legitimately just doesn't play it. He actually does play Pact over Fierce.
@@jackalvonstone250 I know he doesn’t play it but I think that’s part of the bait because he constantly mentions how much he doesn’t play it. I just refuse to believe he’s that dumb
@@peewee0224I think he's that dumb. He's on the podcast because he owns the website not because he is smart.
A fun podcast topic would be each of you coming up with the five cards that best represent you in commander.
So like Phil's Spellbook would be:
Lunar Force
Agent of Treachery
Last March of the Ents
Lonis
Tireless Tracker
I completely forgot about Lunar force. That card is so cool
What about Faerie Artisans
Aminatou’s Augury
My biggest gripe about this episode is they dont talk replacements much and make it situational not analytical. Lol
And almost all the conclusions are "no these cards are pretty good..."
I guess it's a discussion point rather than an actual "budget commander" article going over replacements
Richard's commander takes were so good that they've experienced an overflow error and are all just...bad.
Richard...you're having trouble sticking your commander *because you aren't running Fierce Guardianship.*
I think his point about having Fierce Guardianship in hand and someone trying to remove your commander basically forces you to use it, which makes it kinda less like a consistent free counterspell you can use to push through a win and more like a protection spell with extra utility. I think you could even argue that in a board wipe heavy meta Fierce Guardianship is worse than a normal protection spell because it helps your opponents too. He should probably just play more counterspells in general though lol
@@efiug Except in the same breath he admitted that 90% of the time if you can stick your commander, you can pull ahead.
I think Deflecting Swat is a better commander protection spell than Fierce Guardianship. I think Pact is a better counterspell to protect your winning play with. Fierce Guardianship is the best card at doing both of those things in one card.
@@thedoctorbob7 Uh boardwipes? Nah Fierce is best in class.
@@PalPlays when someone is removing your commander they're usually doing it with single target removal like swords.
When you counter a single target removal, you and that player are down a card vs the other two people. When you redirect, you can mitigate that by hitting a third player and only being down a card vs one player instead of two. Or you can blow them out and 2 for 1 the one player
I feel like the crew is approaching the ramp, fog, and wrath singularity. If you play assuming creatures will just always die, then you'll all end up playing pillowfort or draw go control. LOL
My biggest budget save was printing my deck off at the library for 6 quid.
And NOT play at LGS lmfao
LGS doesn't say a thing
@@Nemissis4265 almost everyone at my lgs proxies and no one has a problem with it. People love the game being accessible to all!
Glad someone said it.
Best way to save your wallet is proxy often.
And just like the kid from school who had to wear a plain shirt 2 sizes too big, because their parents wanted to save money, everyone will play with you.
Proxy if your group is cool with it. Life is too expensive and its great there are cheap options available.
Here's the hero. But do it anyway. Your friends should not be pay walling your table. Proxy and forget about it. They will never know the difference.
@@Zookmottin Agreed. If they’re unhappy with the cards you’re proxying, ask why. A lot of time it’s a power consideration rather than proxies per se.
Love the Avacyn/Armageddon editor add-in
Richard is really loving his new fame. "Pact of Negation is better than Fierce Guardianship" is just so on brand and so incredibly wrong :)
It’s correct in cedh tbf
I think it's correct unless your commander is super cheap like Yuriko ou Rograkh.
@@baconsir1159 Nah, Pact is almost gone from cEDH at this point. I'd bet that Fierce is in 3x as many decks.
@@ElisaKaysCauldron It’s closer than I thought, but the prevalence of Rog Si is probably skewing the numbers a bit imo. In the past month there are 403 top 16s with Fierce, only 380 with Pact. Source is MTGtop8
If you see counters as being for protecting your combo/stopping your opponent's combos it makes sense and is correct. Fierce isn't really good for that because it requires your commander and is thus way easier to play around.
Y’all missed the part of the analysis on Great Henge that those other green card draw spells can largely get dumpstered by an instant-speed bounce/removal/phase out on your big creature. Once Great Henge is on the stack, it’s too late for opponents to respond.
"Who's going to target my commander?"
"Everyone plays seeepers, nobody plays targeted removal"
Richard, please pick one.
He does pick one. It's just whichever one suits his narrative at the time.
Regarding tutors and lands. You can also play less lands, and 0 tutors - if you run cheap efficient card draw.
Cards like Chart a Course, Winged Words, Glimpse the Impossible, and Night’s Whispers do wonders for letting you hit your land drops.
The alternative to every single one of these is "pretend they dont exist". None of these are required to make a strong deck for casual play (not cEDH or high powered casual).
I think part of the disconnect is that fierce isn't an all-purpose counterspell. It's pretty much a protection spell for your commander that also has additional utility sometimes. I don't run it in the counterspell slots of my decks. If you try conceptualizing it that way, you might find yourself finding a home for it more often.
You're right. It goes with the flawless maneuver/clever concealment package, and generally just in decks that require you to have many permanents to do the thing.
Came for the topic, stayed to watch Richard poopoo everything that’s not a 1/1 bird
In my experience ive not had a game where the great henge came down and didnt immediately take over the game.
Meathook is in a similar boat where it just does insane work, though, since it doesn't draw cards its more under the radar on how impactful it is
I truly appreciate Richard rolling with the punches. Bracket 4 goldfish imo.
One thing I've noticed with Richard's card evaluation is that he likes comparing cards 1:1 too much. Fierce Guardianship and Pact of Negation are very different cards; there's more to them then just being "0 mana counterspell". Figuring out the one you actually want to run is very deck-dependent. You gotta lean into a quadrant-theory-style of thinking a little more.
most of richard's takes also involve him talking about being able to win the game right now.
Pact is incredible if you can win NOW but if you can't it's insanely fucking dead in your hand meaning it's not flexible AT ALL.
Force is flexible as long as you have another blue card in hand, but you DO go down a card.
Fierce is GOD TIER if you ever play your fucking commander which most people DO while some people on clash really just don't a lot of the time...
When you look at clash honestly like offer you can't refuse and even regular counterspell end up being kind of the best counterspells??? but even then they tend to tap out lol if I'm ever playing against anybody other than Crim I'm not afraid to run out ANYTHING I want especially if I have a counter in hand cuz there's 0 chance they have interaction for my board lol easiest famous commander players to body if you want to.
It baffles me how the fourteenth doctor is so expensive and The Celestial Toymaker isn't. That is by far my favorite commander to play.
Eleventh Doctor gang all day everyday, dastardly Toymaker! ( I love The Toymaker though so 😂 )
I feel like Richard does not get the props he deserves as a business owner. I think he has put in a lot of work to get to where he is at, is thoughtful about the people he hires, and has a good business mind. He s someone that i could call a friend as well as a boss.
The thing that makes fierce guardianship worse is that its far easier to play around when compared to pact.
Demonic tutor for a bounce land is such a great play. It’s the kind of non flashy play that can save your game
let me demonic tutor a wasteland then
@@irou95 go for it!
I agree that running The One Ring everywhere is boring but I think Richard is misevaluating it on its base level. You will almost always get 2 activations from it barring a Questing Beast like effect meaning it is 4 mana, draw 3, lose 1 life, fog
Richard's take on Fierce is wild af
Crim is criminally underated, interaction goat.
I see what you did there!
The One Ring is at its best when you can use its draw ability to chain into a new one ring and keep the protection going. That’s why it’s a modern staple but not as good in commander. Still an incredible card even not at its best, but I can definitely see Richard’s point.
I can't believe Richard didn't use the Richard argument for The One Ring. It gets you killed and it's too slow to protect you past the 1 turn of protection.
Richard has said it's so powerful it wins a 1v3. So even though it makes you arch enemy. It's still one of the best cards you can play. It's just not a fun card.
The One Ring has precisely one Commander deck I've found it useful overall in and that Commander is also edging around the $65-70 mark (Sheoldred the Apocalypse). Otherwise, is almost entirely useless.
@@blueredlover1060 that's not a commander. That's a stacks enchantment that they put legendary and creature on to make it easier to remove.
@@josephpayton7522 it says legendary creature, so it can be a commander.
@@blueredlover1060 can it though. I checked the brackets and for all the tournaments in my area, I can't. Roffellos is also a legendary creature. It all depends on which bracket of the ban list we're talking about.
I think the main difference between pact of negation and fierce guardian ship is: pact is a combo protection counter that sometimes if neccessary can be used to protect your commander and. Fierce is a commander pritection counter that sometimes can be used to protect your combo if it hadn't to be used earlier.
Guardianship could’ve been made more fair if it was this:
2U - Instant
If you target a noncreature spell that targets your commander, you may cast this spell without paying its mana cost.
Counter target noncreature spell.
@@deifiedtitan That would be a brillant card design I like that a lot I would say with the current powercreep you could in that case even make it blue blue instead of 2 and blue. This would just make it a little bit powercrept negate that is a little harder to cast.
Thanks for the pod, gang. Went ahead and grabbed 4 phyrexian arenas.
Tomer doesn’t play 3 mana tutors? Then whose Toshiro list is this??
That's an exception!
"its bad because it dies to farewell!" lol yep everythings bad vs farewell (except maybe nezahal the best blue creature, who also triggers guardian project everytime it comes back!)
Richard's philosophy is build scared and play scared, but make everyone else scared of the same things as you.
He is Norin the Wary incarnate.
Seeing all these card prices makes me happy I bought Table Top Simulator a while ago 😂
Here’s how you test this Richard. Play Pact of Negation make a note on your phone and tally how many times you wish it was Fierce Guardianship / you wouldn’t have lost if it was.
0:33 I agree with Tomer, I think the land base episode y’all did. Someone was annoyed I suggested to use more common dual lands with the land types. Instead of shocks if you can’t afford them. Which helps run cheaper rare lands such as check lands. As well as ramp that searches for the land type. 😂
Some really good cards in this podcast! Super excited to pick up a Fierce Guardianship and a Demonic Tutor now!
"Just don't play the best cards" doesn't work in the current edh format. In brackets we'll definitely play the next best alternatives- but those cards will become pricier as a result...
This. The focus on rule zero and “self restraint” doesn’t work in reality in the wild. The purpose of ban lists is to facilitate games between random players and you can’t trust random players to handicap themselves for “fun”
@@Lazydino59 indeed. In the brackets people may not play great henge, but they will still play rishkar's expertise and last march of the ents. Craterhoof might be off limits, but they can still play overrun. Each bracket will develop it's own meta and it's own definition of "over powered staples". The only saving grace is that those cards won't be the current staples.
This is only true if 1. People fully adopt the brackets and 2. These cards don't end up at 3 where most decks probably do. The brackets also aren't ban lists. Nothing stops you from running a mostly 2 or 3 bracket deck but having that one 4 card and still playing against 2s
This whole discussion raises the question of what will happen to the prices of some of these cards if they end up in bracket 3 or 4. Depending on how much play groups and players in general expect you to stick to brackets, having a single bracket 4 card in your deck could mean that you have to buy a bunch more for your deck to hold its own, that might make them less popular. It's hard to imagine a card that can't be included as easily as before retaining 100% of its value. That might be good for players, but only those that haven't just spent $50+ on one of those cards.
Bro i just spent 350 bucks for most of my newest deck. Luckily it was justified since not a single one of those cards was on this list
Good to see the crew react like the comments to Richard's theories
Tomer saying Guardian Project is overrated is the lowkey the hottest take of the episode. In a singleton format, a hard to remove permanent that says whenever a nontoken enters under your control draw a card is pretty cracked, it's in all of my green creature decks for a good reason.
I think pact of negation is really strong in simic or ugx decks, you have so much mana that the 5mana cost next turn is negligible. Is it better than fierce? Depends on the commander cost and meta to counter creatures but both are so good that you might as well run both if you want to tune the deck to the max.
If I remember correctly, Drannith spiked from being a sideboard tech in Pioneer when the discover Geological Appraiser combo was prevalent before the ban.
Kind of a corner case but my mono-blue voltron deck almost always has my commander out and has protection for days (phasing, hexproof, counters) so Fierce is amazing in there
Richards take on fierce guardianship has extremely poor logic. It literally is the spell that keeps you commander on the battlefield and is perfectly passable as a 3 mana counter if comes down to it. Typically agree with Richard on stuff like spot removal but not a good or well thought out take.
This comes off as Insulting a member of our community's intelligence. Please be better, take time for self reflection and reduce the vitriol you are contributing in our community.
@@Pug8 edited comment, wasn't trying to insult but to call out poor logic on his take. However it did look bad, so switched it to be more line what I was trying to say. Apologies, will consider more accurate language in the future
My predictions for this (every) weeks podcast
- Seth will over react the entire cast but close it out by tell the audience not to over react
- Tomer will be cautiously optimistic
- Crim will continue to be the voice of reason
- Richard will realize yet again that he is, in fact, very old
_"You need the sweat to make the Jank work, otherwise you just have terrible cards"_
I have never felt more called out by the truth 😂
Richard, the CMM full art Fierce Guardianship is the best printing anyway
Everyone: (*Freaking out over Richard’s latest insane take*)
Richard, watching another comment about him rise to the top and get hundreds of engagements: “Excellent…”
Petting his cat
This whole episode made me want to proxy more cards.
Tomer: "I don't understand why I either win or get knocked out first." Also Tomer: "If you're not drawing 10 cards at once and terrifying everyone, what are we even doing here?" Richard: "Casting my commander could put a target on me. On an unrelated note, no idea why I win every season."
Seth's reaction to "a good draw spell" is so funny
The reason the Stranger Things reprints are so cheap is they had a VERY plentiful reprint as universes within cards in New Capenna. You basically got one of the cards every 4th set booster you opened. No other reprints have come even remotely close to this volume.
Weren't they in innistrad?
@@donb7519 the characters were from Innistrad, but the cards were in the List slot in New Capenna.
Richard: Here's a podcast about saving money.
Crim: Here's why I buy overvalued cards.
Richard’s the kind of guy to pay 3UU and take a turn off in order to counter a spell. It’s like casting a Time Warp for each of your opponents!
Demonic Tutor is really good, consistency is everything especially for two mana.
Except it's less consistent than having redundancy for all your key effects. It finds you your graveyard silver bullet but you've not lost consistency for every other silver bullet
I stead of the great henge I run gurraks uprising and tribute to the world tree - gain trample and draw a card every time a monster with 4+ power comes in from uprising and world tree adds counters to push for a 2nd draw from gurraks uprising and also draws you a card when 3+ power comes in. If you can get both out, you’ll never struggle for hand
Fierce Guardianship counters Farwell than on your turn cast your Farwell. They cast Pack of Negation minus 5 mana for turn. Untap Up Keep pays 5 mana Draw plays land pass. Huge temp. Huge.
I am still happy that I bought The One Ring last year for 60€ hence I knew how good it is through the Goldfish Podcast and I can say it is so obnoxiously strong I won almost every game where I casted it.
Avacyn obviously isn't what she once was, but I will say she can still be annoyingly difficult to deal with if you design your deck around her. Get her Hexproof or Protection, and suddenly the only reliable way to get rid of her is stuff like Farewell, Cyclonic Rift, Toxic Deluge, etc. Which isn't a small list of cards, but is a manageable one if they're all your worried about.
Watching Richard is like watching a clip from *insert news network you hate here* , I disagree so much with what's being said but I can't look away when I see a clip
I haven't played a single blue deck lately and thought "oh, this fierce is a really bad card, i wish it was a pact of negation".
it saved my ass from stupid combos all the time, stopped multiple farewells,...
such a good card. is it worth its price? hell no. is it a blue staple? hell yes.
Regarding OG duals, their price is absolutely ridiculous for what they do, BUT having them gives an indescribable feeling of “compleation” to your deck.
Meathook is an awful wrath, I wouldn't play it unless I have a lot of stuff to trigger it with. It's very good at triggering repeatedly, but I would almost never put it in as my wrath slot.
I run Radagast the Brown instead of Beast Whisperer or Guardian project in a lot of decks. The card selection is great and its not a "draw" so you can't get blown out by bowmasters.
Drannith Magistrate will slow down all those 3-4 MV value engine commanders delaying their ability to run away with advantage. Getting hated out is far more meta dependent. Locally salty cards are common so the heat doesn't last. Plus, if you build a deck to be less commander focused, another player dropping the magistrate is often a boon (assuming the 99 also doesn't rely on casting from elsewhere).
When Richard says things like "buying Lara Croft or The Fourteenth Doctor isn't something you do because they're a good card, it's something you do because you love the character, and that makes it worth buying" it's so real, it's such a good understanding of Commander that it shocks me.
It's an obvious take though. There aren't many of the mechanically unique SL cards that are generically good like Rick is for humans, most are niche, novel commanders like Lara Croft that don't fit particularly well in other decks. I don't honestly think many of these cards see play in a lot of other decks, their price is only high for their availability, not because there is a lot of demand.
@Benjammn A take so obvious Seth immediately argued with him haha. One of the things that makes this podcast interesting is that the crew are predominantly 60 card competitive players whose opinions are incredibly influenced by that fact. Richard dropping the "subjectivity/nuance over objective analysis" is the most "Commander Woke" thing the podcast has ever seen
@@TheSpunYarnbut is seth wrong that you could argue that for any card though?
@donb7519 He's not wrong that the argument can be applied to any given card in good or bad faith, but not every card is $40+, so the question of objective vs. subjective value isn't as important.
That's the problem with value judgements in Commander specifically. It's a format that appeals to self expression over competitive motivation, so anybody can justify any inclusion in their deck simply by saying "I want to play it, so I will"
55:50 Indestructibility still has a ton of use for combat, both defensively and offensively. Mass indestructible no longer is as good against boardwipes, but that's not all it's for
I completely agree with Richard, under some asterisks.
My only blue deck at the moment, is my Esper Oloro deck. In that deck, I do not care about Fierce guardianship because it is functionally always a 4-mana negate. But why would I cast Oloro?
I for one will say this: I appreciate Richard's consistency even though I don't necessarily agree.
This podcast is really interesting since a lot of the card arguments I feel fall more under play style/ play philosophy first and then price as the justification. Fierce Guardianship for Richard “my opponents will expend their resources”, Demonic Tutor for Crim “I don’t like tutors”, Great Henge for Tomer “burst draw is better than incremental draw” and Secret Lairs for Seth “what’s an x-men?” This podcast didn’t really change my mind on any of the cards brought up since every card comes from a personal standpoint rather than an actual card power to price imbalance that isn’t justified.
I have Varina Zombies. Varina is there simply for her colors; she doesn't need to move from the command zone at all. Fierce is entirely pointless in that deck.
I thought this would be a "Richard and Crim have bad takes" episode but once Richard said that if Demonic Tutor couldn't find lands it would go down in value for him I knew he was trolling us all.
Pact of Negation could also be better than Fierce Guardianship if someone tries to counter your Commander.
Great Henge is an Artifact. Very little synergy in green decks for Artifacts. Also it is a removal target. I play artifact wipes in Green decks and have taken out my artifacts.
These are all some of the best cards in edh (excluding secret lair). Worth every penny IF your playgroup plays on the same power level. Otherwise you are spending a lot of money just to realize that you feel bad for playing them.
I really think they need to do a Texas Chainsaw Massacre secret lair, with art inspired from scenes in the movies - Meathook Massacre spells with art showing the killing gallery, VIllage Rites with the banquet, Deadly Rollick with leatherface spinning around with the chainsaw, etc. Would SOOO build a whole deck around that.
Didn't realize Fumigate was such a staple for Richard.
I have to agree with Richard on The One Ring. When the card was first spoiled I said it is not that good. After a year of playing with and against it, I can say it really isn’t that good. I tried to make it good, jamming it in almost every deck. If you can abuse it then it becomes the best card in your deck. By abuse I mean combo with it to draw your entire deck.
In cEDH, especially tournament play, it is way too slow and the protection means nothing. When games are decided turn two and three The One Ring is a dead card in your deck.
In casual where games tend to go longer it may be good incremental value, but there are better card draw spells and effects.
Currently I have Th One Ring in one deck, Sméagol Helpful Guide. For the flavor only as it is a Lord of The Rungs deck with LOTR art down to the map basics from the set.
surprised with the take on Avacyn. There are exile effects, but not that much. Certainly depends on the table, but I'm still finding it asks a tough question that leads to a lot of wins.
The Great Hinge is a ritual and card draw in JUND Storm! It isn't replaceable.
I'd love to hear your opinions on hybrid mana in commander. I've seen it getting brought up more with the shift to wizards presiding over the format
Just wanna say that for whatever reason I love doubling season and bought one because of that. I totally agree that it is probably not worth the price especially with so many other doublers out there but I still love it.
Im starting to think Richard is like an mtg genius
I understand where they’re coming from on the One Ring, but it’s very funny to me to say “I’m not going to run the One Ring because of price,” and then recommend Trouble in Pairs ($20+), Rhystic Study ($30+), Last March of the Ents ($22+). Like, 1. You need more than 4 card draw spells in every deck, and 2. All of these cards are expensive, while being locked to certain colors. When you buy the One Ring you’re buying a card draw spell you can put in absolutely everything, which makes its price a little more understandable for me. Now would I pay $70 for it? No, but that’s why I picked it up when it dropped in price to like $35 around the Modern bnr 😅
I would add for commander: the green overlord. Its 3 mana for a tapped land or 5 for it plus a medium boddy without relevant abilities ... Even in 5 colours you stil need double green on turn 3 .... For commander not worth the price... The artwork is very cool though😊
you just reminded me i have an ancient copper dragon i need to sell before they reprint it! thanks!
I had hard time finding enough wizards in b/wf or the party time precon. Drannith Magistrate is only 2 and a wizard! It goes in! There's just not that many out there.
I completly agree with Crim on tutors. YOu can run any combo you'd like and I'll think it's fair as long as it's not tutored for. But then again, to each it's own.
Good point about indestructible. Its not that great anymore. Toxic Deluge, Farewell, Cyclonic Rift, Swords, Path, Sheoldreds Edict, reality shift, chaos warp, etc etc etc. everything that people play ignores indestructible these days
Coming into expecting cards to play OVER the expensive cards...here's why you should play every card stated.
I literally bought Guardian Project last night, so Tomer hurt me with that outburst.