With six layers of MLV and 8 layers of panel products, the mass alone will stop almost anything. But is it cost effective and fast to install? For example, installing 5 layers of panel products tightly between every wall stud is an installer's nightmare.
This was one of the youtube videos that stopped be doing a project and instead i sold the house and bought full brick this time. Thanks for saving me a fortune on a huge project that would have wasted an awful lot of money
You are welcome. Brick is a good lower frequency barrier. When we use brick as our base material and add additional layers to the brick, you can get larger amounts of low end performance with only a few more inches of materials. If you take an 8" brick and add a few inches of the right material type, for that additional two inches of space lost, you can have a 16" thick brick performance.
Hi Dennis I have 2 questions about your wall design at 3:57 - how densly packed is your activated carbon, or is it loosley dropped in? And are those lines representing screws in the stud, or is it a laid in piece of MLV? Thanks!
Our carbon is processed in granule form. We control the porisity count, hole size, and granule density. We also treat the carbon for moisture retention. If the carbon absorbs moisture (humidity) it will lose performance. This is where people who cheat and use other carbon types will fail. After their carbon that is not treated absorbs a certian level of moisture, they quit working. This process takes around 6-12 months. They have done all of that work for nothing at great expense. Our barrier wall sandwiches are glued and then the barrier sandwich is screwed to the stud.
@@AcousticFields Thanks! Do you sell your carbon separately? Thanks for info on the stud construction too. I am now thinking a build of concrete block might be a good option with some kind of extra sandwich stud layer. Drums and neighbours don't mix well. Thanks again.
The standard double wall approach is only STC 66, but it won't cost an arm and a leg. Can you suggest a wall assembly that is just as effective, thinner, and doesn't cost more? It is easy to say the wall underperforms for its size, but I don't know of a better alternative that doesn't cost more. Any guidance would be appreciated!
@@AcousticFields Acoustic Fields great question, thank you! In my context it is for a home theatre in the basement of a house and the goal is to keep the noise from the theatre away from the rest of the house and vice versa. Not worried about neighbours
I am about to start on converting my attic for home studio/office. I am in Ireland so looking at 15mm acoustic drywall, tecsound sy70 and then 12.5mm drywall for stud walls (filled with fibreglass insulation). Party walls will be mustwall 33b with 12.5mm drywall. Floor will be insulated with fibreglass insulation, OSB 18mm subfloor, Tecsound 50, another layer of OSB 12mm, Sylpro 5mm and then laminate flooring. Will this be enough to watch a movie at normal levels at night / game and have conversations without waking my kids?
I'm getting ready to attempt to help out with terrible road noise in my bedroom. I'm going for double layer 5/8 drywall over the existing 1/2 inch. I just can't bring myself to pull the trigger on the green glue the price is absolutely out of line. There has to be a better way. Please advise. I don't want to smooth out the existing wall either it's light texture. I have spent weeks reading and learning about sound proofing and I'm not even going to attempt de coupling or wall within a wall I just need to block low deep noise from cars in front of my house. I found your videos and I feel you are correct green glue can't be anything more than silicone caulking noise wise. Please advise I'm putting two layers of 5/8 on top of 1/2 was going to put green glue in between but the cost is more than all the other materials. Would 30 pound tar paper in between be something to add mass. I'm just trying to lower the deep road noise. Thankyou
You are guessing which is a waste of time and money when it comes to noise transmission. The methodologies you are considering work only for middle and high frequency noise issues and poorly at that. If your road noise is below 125 hz. you will not attenuate any of those octave bands. You must measure noise over a seven day time period to know the maximum and minimum pressure issues. You design the barrier for the lowest frequency and the highest amplitude during the one week of noise measurements.
Was just studying you're wall assembly. A few questions. What does a wall like this cost per wall sq ft? It appears each stud is spaced maybe 6" or 8" on center... Is that correct? Why the use of 3x6 instead if standard 2x6? Lastly, I've used mass loaded vinyl before to wrap HVAC ducts in my current room but where do I buy the activated carbon panels? Thanks for your great content. I watched your channel years ago. I recently had started building bass traps with mineral wool and now I'm re thinking it after seeing your video on it! . Need to rethink things for my next room!
You see all that Mass Loaded Vinyl in like 8+ layers total? That will cost a TON of money. I'm sure his design can do a great job without Green Glue but the reality is getting much above 65 STC starts costing exponentially more money.
Panels filled with building insulation lack the proper rate and level of lower frequency absorption that is required for music and voice. We can assist you will a quote on DIY carbon technology. Send us an email to info@acousticfields.coma
While your construction outperforms the similar setup with green glue, it would be nice to see how thick you'd need to match the STC 66 with your approach
Evrery material type and construction methodology is frequency and amplitude spacific. Certain materials work in certain configurtaions to attenuate certain octave bands of noise. There is no one size fits all noise.
@@AcousticFields That's true but constrained layer dampening does work otherwise the Navy wouldn't be using it on submarines and ships. Whether or not Green Glue works is a different question. I've never tried it, probably never will because any similar lower cost product that remains elastic will accomplish the same thing. I do agree with you, Green Glue is pure gimmick but only because it is over priced and probably no better than less expensive options. Constrained layer dampening however is a valid technology widely used in military applications. I'm just not convinced Green Glue is a good implementation of it.
How would I minimize hearing bass from upstairs neighbors. What would I have to do to existing ceiling? I’m considering plugging my bass into my amp and fight fire with fire. I currently use headphones to spare them but they don’t seem to have the same mindset. I want to fix this problem because if it’s not this neighbor it will be the next. I own my unit (condo).
The transmission of low frequency energy can be minimized with the proper barrier technology. You will have to measure the noise and then we can assist you with the barrier design. You will need to build a room within a room that has walls that are 8 - 12" thick.
Not confusing at all. You are talking about two material types that have different densities which will "treat" different frequencies and amplitudes. What are the frequency and amplitudes of your noise issues?
@@AcousticFields Why would you use quiet rock and not just plane old drywall? Does the viscoelastic compound in quiet rock help treat different frequencies and amplitudes?
@@FOH3663 I know what works. I have seen and actually built things in real life. I know these ideas are cute and work out on paper but not everything on paper works out in real life.
I'm in the process of building a room within a room for my drum kit. I am thinking about using the soundproof joist tape, 1.5 inch drywall and allowing 2 inches from wall and ceiling (no contact). What's your opinion about my project, any suggestions?.
You are using a feather to stop a tornado. Drums are full range instruments that require a full frequency range barrier that will be 6 - 8" deep and contain numerous layers of materials. We can assist you with the room design. Fill out the information in this link: www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/
What instrument(s) do you use to measure frequency and amplitude of noise over 7 days? Do you have a video for that? Thank you. Just discovered your channel and I am very noise sensitive but I know nothing about this science. I rent, but when I buy my home, this will be a priority. Neighbors are so loud: leaf blowers, chainsaws, lawn mowers, speeding cars, the teenage kid down the street who practices drums in his garage: I can't think straight while working from home. Even the refrigerator motor noise inside the house gets to me after a while. The noise is non-stop. Thank you! So glad there is some hope beyond earplugs.
Your alternative assembly has 4 layers of 1/4" MLV, which is more expensive than GG. MLV is not hung limp, the actual studs still connect front and back wall layers, there is activated carbon inside "studs"... How does it actually work?
Our proprietary carbon technology is used between the studs in a wall build or inside the cabinet in a freestanding build. MLV is a vibration reducing technology when sandwiched between material types and layers.
@@AcousticFields So, you are replacing 2 layers of $1/sq.ft. compound with 4 layers of 2 lbs MLV at $4/sq.ft. each layer and proprietary materials. How is that a reasonable comparison?
Can you please tell us what the STC is of your set up without using your proprietary diaphragmatic absorbers in between the walls? IOW just using the 1" gyprock, 0.5" ply with MLV sandwiched in between. Thanks
You are confusing sound absorption technology with barrier technology. Our carbon technology absorbs low frequency energy. It is not designed to reduce noise transmission. Reducing noise transmission is a completely different science and requires a different approach to treat.
@@AcousticFields You didn't answer my question though... The question was "what STC is the image you show minus your diaphragmatic absorber?" If the absorber isn't completely filling every boundary surely you know what the STC rating is of the materials used combined in the image you show otherwise why show it then say "ours is 90%." I only want to know the STC without the absorber or is that image not 90% and that you are dodging around the question and for what!? I'm not trying to slander, prove or disprove anything here, I'd just like an answer please.
@@AcousticFields what do you mean? This is a known fact; I thought; it's on their website, as well as Wikipedia, etc. There's no confusion about that; my confusion is why you are against Green Glue which is a similar (if not the same just differently branded) material, but you are using Quietrock whose main component is that same viscoelastic polymer, in your solution. Perhaps the legitimate debate is about uniformity, as you mentioned, i.e.: Quietrock vs. DIY Green Glue solutions, meaning that Quietrock may be applying the material between its layers with required uniformity, which is difficult to achieve DIY with a caulk gun? P.s. I am not a professional; just researching a solution for my apartment.
@@AcousticFields I think it's the whole frequency range compared to any other product given the same dimensions. I think it's about 10x more expensive than MLV.
I'm wondering if Green Glue should be compared to MLV or maybe Sorbothane, since they are both used in between two layers of another solid material. ie. Sheet Rock, plywood, etc...
It is difficult to make comparisons. One can make density comparisons but that is where things can get confusing. Along with density, you must marry the density of the chosen material with the density of the next layer to produce a synergy between the two where two materials act as one barrier.
@@AcousticFields Could one figure out what the STC is by taking two of the same materials (sheetrock, or Plywood, etc.) and comparing GG vs MLV vs another material to see what the results would be and how they might differ? I'm just spitballing. The reason is I'm looking at your design which uses MLV between various materials vs GG in the other design that uses sheetrock. If you took the sheetrock example and put MLV instead of GG, how much different would the results be? Would there be any difference? Have you done any testing on that?
By my estimation your method is about 10 times the cost of the Green Glue and double drywall method. This isn't really an apples to oranges comparison. In part 1 you brought up cost per foot and said you had a "sheet for $10" that could outperform the GG. Please elaborate as to what that sheet would be and what would be a better method at around that $1/SF range. Thanks so much for the time!
@@AcousticFields my sub is rated down to 35 kz, sometimes I listen to my stereo north of 85 db. I'm a home do it yourself"er" who is converting the 2 car garage into my rock bar. The problem is I have one L shaped adjoining wall that the low end transfers through that the Mrs. does not enjoy. Both walls have 5/8" drywall and am looking for the best cost effective solution to keep those low frequencies within my rock space. I have about 2-1/4" to work with coming off the face of the existing drywall in the garage. Any sort of insight is greatly appreciated! Thank you so much
Dennis, you are the only person I trust for acoustical treatment done RIGHT. I can't find anyone else that has a level of knowledge comparable to you. Per your advice, I'm tearing out (very carefully) my homemade mineral rock "acoustical panels" and "bass traps" that took a week to build, and was not cheap. Yes, they help a little, at least stopped the reflections, but I know I'll never get truly "pro" mixing until I get my room treated properly. I'm saving up...hope to get started soon!
Building insulation is toxic and will not provide the proper rates and levels of absorption required for music and voice. Music and voice are different than noise. Most absorption products in the marketplace are "designed" for noise meaning they absorb as much as possible per square foot of surface area.
I feel like you're only talking about sound transmission through walls, not sound quality IN the room. I live alone and I could care less what the sound does through the walls in my basement with 3 block walls, what I want is a solid foundation for sound quality IN the room. I'm thinking the Glue would have some benefit to reducing in-room vibrations of materials against each other, therefore have a lower noise floor for the listener. I want to go with 5/8" drywall and glue with heavy insulation but my carpenter insists on 1/2" drywall and no glue at all. Gonna be some light 2x4 walls I think. Hopefully it's good enough, I wired for 4 subs, lol.
Your noise methodology will not work for frequencies below 125 Hz. and is a waste of space and materials for frequencies above 125 Hz. Why would you use 50 year old technology to stop noise that never worked well in the first place.
Hi, Brilliant video. I love it when people cut through the BS. May I ask why activated carbon is used? Apologies in advance if you have already covered this, I have only recently found your channel. Thanks in advance.
With diaphragmatic absorption, its all about the rate and level of absorption. The cabinet depth determines the resonant frequency of the cabinet. Frequencies above the resonant frequency are absorbed. Frequencies below the resonant frequency are not absorbed. The internal cabinet fill determines the rate of absorption or how much energy is absorbed per square foot of cabinet surface area. Carbon has large surface areas for absorption to occur.
I have a house near a busy road and have been trying to get sound levels down. I’ve learned a lot about sound properties from your page. I have added storm window with a high STC rating and managed to get the exterior sound levels down. But not perfect yet. I’ve determined that now my walls are the weak link. I need just a little more sound protection and wanted to know what would be the best route with least effort. I am willing to add a metal hat channel and another layer of drywall, but would I fill in the cavity with sound dampening fiberglass insulation or just leave it as a open pocket? Or would you have a better suggestion?
Dennis, we are so fortunate to have you to show us, empirically, why so many of the supposed acoustic products are just advertising noise, with no actual acoustic benefit. In addition to 'green glue' and corner bass traps, I'm thinking of foam 'bass traps' and foam 'diffusers'. You've said it before, as have I, DRYWALL SOUNDS TERRIBLE. No way around it.
My favorite is the foam corner "bass trap". Placing absorption in the corners of rooms goes against the very definition of an axial mode. An axial mode occurs between two parallel wall surfaces, not two parallel corners. Corners only represent about 10 % of the actual surface area that is producing the unwanted modal pressure. How can you treat the issues produced by the two parallel walls by treating only 10% of the offending surface areas.
I definitely agree that consumers and "professionals" (contractors whose qualitative understanding of the physics is significantly below the intellectual level of a Sesame Street song) fundamentally misunderstand how a given product, or solution, can be applied to a complex problem like soundproofing or acoustic isolation/deadening under an "arbitrary" external perturbation, most likely a combination of vehicle traffic, common frequencies from subwoofers and midrange speakers, and nearby impact noise (from human activity close enough to couple through the structure)n I also agree that EVERY industry, and certainly the construction industry, aggressively exploits this misunderstanding and that the "professionals" are AT LEAST as susceptible to this intentional manipulation as consumers. To make matters even worse, US contractors and consumers are equally "religiously partisan" with respect to specific products (Like Green Glue.... or Dynamat in other situations) or specific design schemes as they are with respect to partisan politics..... get enough contractors in a room and you can get them rioting over green glue vs resilient channels just like the worst of our civics at this moment in time. The one thing I will say about the design scheme in the video is that I highly doubt you can "convince" an inspector to approve and certify a void filled with activated carbon as up to code. Certainly not in all 50 states and regional building codes. The building code distinction of products like Green Glue vs better solutions that have been engineered but might be "unconventional" (merely because of stupidity by the authorities) is a big reason for the big $$ price. And yes..... the code distinction is meaningless and all it really means is that the manufacturer jumped through the hoops, grease the appropriate political wheels, but does NOT represent any actual real safety or performance disticnction.
I just drywalled my studio but am planning on doing a second layer ... I have an opportunity to buy *3/4" Particle Board for $10 a sheet.* Would this be better on the second layer vs Drywall?
Not a lrage factor to consider. Spend your time treating the low-frequency issues within the room. The cost benefit ratio to doing this is well worth the effort.
I just want to stop my neighbors from calling the law when I play music or watch tv...So what is the cheapest way to stop sound from getting out of my building.
There is no cheap solution when it comes to noise. You must build a permanent structure that is designed to mange the frequency and amplitude of your noise numbers. It would be much better on the neighbors and your hearing to turn down. You should also increase the resolution of your room through treatment. This will allow you to listen at lower levels since you will hear more music.
Dennis, I very much appreciate and enjoy your videos. I really love the depth you go into. However all I'm trying to do is dampen my room in a linear way. I am considering hanging some memory foam behind some blackout draperies. I'm confident I am overlooking something basic, but I'm on a tight budget. Your thoughts? Thanks, keep the faith
It is difficult to achieve linearity when you are using material types that do not have published rates and levels of absorption. Linearity is all about rate and level of absorption.
Can anyone recommend any good books or articles on the theory behind all this? I'd like to understand the basics before I start bothering people with hundreds of my questions:) For instance I don't understand the schematic Dennis showed, if the activated carbon works so well then why are we using only 2 1/2" of it?
There are other videos that Dennis has done where he talks about using different types of materials for sound barrier technology and he says you have to figure out the frequencies and amplitudes that you are dealing with and then he has to figure out what materials to use, what order in sequence. So everyone's situation could potentially be a different barrier design. this is just one example, but your situation might require a completely different wall structure using similar or possibly other materials, varying thickness, etc.
I'm no expert and I'm sure Dennis can correct me if i'm wrong, but my understanding is that even though the carbon is the workhorse of that design, having the different layer densities and thicknesses is crucial.
We have done many videos about barrier technologies. Most of the technologies used were used 50 years ago and people keep repeating the same old mistakes. Barrier technology has come a long way in the last 10 years but people keep repeating the same "mistakes". Most people that purport barrier technology on the net have never built a room. Its obvious from their comments that they do not understand vibrational acoustics.
@@AcousticFields I was watching some build a room or renovating an older home that do work with structural engineers. They say how they are soundproof and built to code, yet they many times don't explain what frequency range they are effective in, some don't even mention the STC rating, some do, but they act like it's all one needs to build a sound proof room… The big deal tech seems to be resilient channels since Cities are now demanding those with new builds. but form what I can tell it looks like a metal piece that decouples and adds a small air gap. Am I missing anything, is that all it's doing? They aren't even doing double 2x4's either, but they act like they are building the best soundproof wall and I guess people just assume that they'll work for music related applications.. Some of them say how they work with home theater rooms, stereos, etc. which is nonsense. but they get away with it and people buy into it..
There are no two barrier methods the same. You must measure the frequency and amplitude of the noise issues you are having over a seven day period. We are looking for the frequency and amplitude that is the lowest and loudest over the 7 day period. We then design the barrier that you build. Every material type and construction methodology depends on the noise issues (frequency and amplitude) you are dealing with. The double wall approach takes up a lot of space, is 40 year old "technology ", and only works above 100 Hz. Its a waste of time, space, and money.
You must first measure the frequency and amplitude of the noise. This data tells you what to build, what materials to use, what way to arrange the materials and how thick the walls need to be. Without noise numbers you are just guessing and guessing with noise is a fool's game. When you guess wrong which most do, you may have to tear it all out and start over again.
@@AcousticFields thank you, its very professional approach, BUT for average person who live in wooden house with noisy neighbors behind the wall and opened tv, what advice you can give me? And you not answer my question: green glue is not working? In my situation green glue can work?
Great video. What about using the isolated double wall but filling the 2x4 studs with carbon? Maybe you could MDF both sides of the air gap between the walls and fill with carbon?
Acoustic Fields I'm a drummer and hit very hard, so like every frequency and the highest amplitude. I would think that two 3.5 inch layers of carbon would really attenuate low end energy
Great advise to take the time and take measurements and use that data. In the case of a cinder block wall you cant line both sides as per your design of plywood with 1/2 plywood, mass loaded vinyl and 1" quiteroc so would doing the inside of a cinder wall work or would you use a completely different approach?. Thanks again for these video, always learning.
@@AcousticFields Im not sure yet as this is a room Im stripping out and converting is there any point in taking measurement when it a bare shell? Cheers
So I am going to hang 3/4 Rubber Horse Mats 4' by 6' on my 6" studs in my Mobile Home & listen to my 15" Horn Driven Vintage EV 1250" each Powered by a 500 Watt Allesis RM500 AB Amplifiers at Low easy listening level & it will work. I wrapped 3 Work Rubber floor Mats around my Radio Boom Box, 2 wrapped around & 1 draped over then a pressed the left & right sides tightly together & the sound was reduced more than half. 3/4 Rubber Horse Mats is sound proofing that works.
There is no such thing as "soundproofing". Nothing with noise is "proofed". There are many variables to consider. It depends what the frequency and amplitude of the noise, it depends on what time of day it occurs, it depends on room size and volume, it depend on flanking noise issues, it depends on room usage, it depends. Nothing with noise is black and white. Stop looking for the black and white. It doesn't exist. Trust me. If it had, I would have found it by now.
I can clearly hear my annoying neighbor from the other room and he refuses to wear headphones, what can i place on my wall to cut down the noise by at least 90%, it's causing me anxiety and stress.
Thanks for the video! Which QuietRock product(s) did you get tested with the assembly that you've shown? I only see a 1/2, 5/8, and 1-3/8 inch product on QuietRock's website. Two of the 1/2-inch, perhaps?
What are the frequency and amplitude of your noise issues? Material type, density, and construction methodology all depend on the frequency and amplitude of your noise issues.
@@AcousticFields I have an issue with hearing cabinet doors closing through the wall. Would it be beneficial to just add a layer of QR 530 right on top of the current dry wall?
Sir, you provide so much outstanding information it is a real service to the audio community. When I was building my studios I would scour Recording Engineer Producer mag, and F. Alton Everest's book for this kind of info. You provide so much more! Thank you!
The Quietrock product you show in your example uses a viscoelastic layer. Guess what? Green Glue is a viscoelastic layering product, the same product you keep bashing. Bashing this product would be like bashing the MLV product you also use in your example. Green Glue and MLV are small components of a larger solution to address a problem. You are basically saying in this, and your Part 1 video, that $30,000 cars suck because Bentley is a much better car. You are comparing apples and oranges. There are tons and tons of people that are happy with the result they get from Green Glue (and other viscoelastic products like it) as part of a comprehensive solution including decoupling with things like clips and channel. Just read the many positive reviews from home theater builders in avsforum.com for example. I have no doubt the example alternative you offer here is superior for higher STC, but it has a significantly higher cost too. Does Green Glue alone offer smaller improvements than 4 layers of MLV + 2 layers of Quietrock + 2 layers of plywoord + 2.5" of carbon + more? It most likely does. But for people that are home theater enthusiasts or have budget studios looking for proven economical solutions, and find your videos that make absolute claims like "this product is nonsense!" just serves to confuse and misinform people.
Green glue is an adhesive marketed as as a viscoelastic layer. Read the ingredients on the label. If you want to spend more money on glue for your barrier design that is your choice. It is not the adhesive that produces the performance. It is the layering of materials and the air space which is considered a layering material. We receive numerous calls each day from people who have used this method and are unhappy with low frequency transmission. There are many barrier options that take up less space and perform better. We prefer solutions that treat the complete frequency spectrum especially for home theaters where low-frequency energy issues predominate.
@@AcousticFields I understand you prefer solutions that treat the complete frequency spectrum. And thats awesome. Your videos prove you guys can build barriers with superior STC ratings in the very difficult to fix
People can be happy and unhappy for many reasons. Most of these companies play upon the ignorance of the very people they sell to. Green glue is just what the name implies. It is an adhesive. To attribute some magical barrier benefits to it is ridiculous. It is an adhesive nothing more and that adhesive is a micro part of a macro design. Once again, MLV is just one part of a total acoustical "spring" system that reduces noise transmission. You can not claim that "MLV does not solve that issue either." You are following in the footsteps of the green glue crowd.
Yes, it is one material type out of hundreds that we use in our barrier designs. The key to understanding each individual noise frequency and amplitude issue is what material type works best at what frequency and amplitude. Most material types have little value by themselves. Its when they are used in conjunction with other material types that the real synergy occurs.
You clearly know what you're talking about, and maybe your method is one of the better ones created, but it can't possibly be cost effective to use whatolks to be 8 layers of MLV IN ADDITION to several layers of your own product, and a whole lot of plywood. That just seems like it would be astronomically expensive. In your opinion, is this one of the more cost effective solutions? I have a 25' by 13' room I'm trying to treat. My budget would have to be enormous to pull something like that off.
And to clarify, I need a full range solution. It doesn't need to be entirely soundproofed, as it's its own separated building from my house, but I plan on recording drums which will be likely the loudest source besides maybe mixing songs with a lot of bass. Let's say full range of spectrum at 110+DB and if I could get like 70db reduction of that it would be perfectly fine. Totally open to exploring your products and solutions.
We do not sell barrier technology. We do design with noise and treatment but only sell design products absorption /diffusion. All barrier material types are frequency and amplitude dependent. This means that for every noise frequency and its strength you must use a certain material type with the appropriate density. Step one, you must take noise numbers so you know what material types to use based upon your noise numbers. Using multiple layers of the same material type regardless of the noise numbers is never desired. Without noise numbers to guide you, you are just guessing and guessing with noise is never a good idea. If you guess wrong and you build something that does not work, you will have to tear it out and start over. no one wants to do that. Measure twice, cut once.
Drums are the third full range source when it comes to noise transmission. The first is a jet airplane then a gong then drums. You must pay special attention to the noise levels in the neighborhood where your drum room will be located. We build a lot of studios in LA and the noise levels in most neighbor hoods drop by 40% after 11 pm. and neighbors are 6' away. If you play your drums at the same level you did during the day when ambient levels are higher and your noise output is masked by background noise, you will be heard by neighbors.
Dennis, Something I don't think you touched upon. Let's pretend that someone had a big enough room where they didn't have any major issues below 40hz, and they built the entire room (walls and ceiling) using the design you have in this video. Would someone still need additional ACDA type technology in addition to the "shell" of the room that's using your design OR would they just need to add foam and diffusion for mid/high frequency treatment? Thanks!
So the design in your diagram calls for 8 sheets total of 1/4" vinyl across the barrier? that's a lot of mass, which I guess buys you the lower frequency attenuation. I'm a drummer so definitely want as much low frequency attenuation as possible. Im just a couple weeks away from construction of my garage to drum studio conversion project, essentially using the former design you criticize, so you have me pausing. hmmmm....
I do not know what design you are referring to. The standard double wall with this adhesive type does not reach below 125 Hz. It won't help you with your drum room.
With drums, you will need to create a wall that is 12" deep. The construction methodology will be determined after noise measurements have been taken in the neighborhood.
The comparison is apples to oranges. Your design is using 4 layers of 1/4" MLV an inch thick in total. With 1/2" plywood? The cost is astronomical compared to double drywall.
Its always cost versus benefit with noise. Your method takes up a lot of space and is only effective above 125 Hz. If your noise issues are above 125 Hz. and you have that space requirement to use then this method will work although poorly. Noise transmission efforts below 125 Hz. require much more costly solutions. This is why companies tell you this double wall methodology will work for all noise. It is cheap, easy to build, but what they don't tell you is that it won't work below 125 cycles. I get calls everyday from those who have used this method and are not happy. Unfortunately, the fix in most cases is to tear it out and start again.
Very interesting alternative in your wall design using the carbon fiber. Would you use decoupling techniques if installing this in a home environment to isolate from the existing structure? Especially for rooms where sound transmission leaks through the ceiling to upper floors.
All materials and installation methodologies are directly related to the frequency and amplitude of your noise transmission issues. Every material you use along with the way you assemble those materials depends on noise measurements. This fact is so critical, we will not assist any project for noise transmission issues without noise numbers over a seven day period. Since we guarantee our work, we must quantify and qualify any issue before treatment design.
Heeeelllpppp!!! I need to soundproof my drum room! The room has its walls up so I can’t rebuild everything, what’s the best thing for me to add to walls?
You will have to measure the frequency and amplitude of the noise in the drum room. You will need to measure the frequency and amplitude of the noise in the rooms where the noise is transmitting to. The difference between those numbers is the effectiveness of the existing barrier you have between the rooms. Once that is determined you can then design the proper barrier technology to make up the difference required.
This is the first acoustic fields video I saw and almost dismissed you guys as it's a little ridiculous to be ragging on green glue/damping compounds and drywall--mainly for the company testing a huge variety of wall designs, then in your graphic you show you use damping compound and drywall...plus plywood, osb, mdf, and layers of 2lb MLV. I'm sure it works great but your room appears to cost around $50/sq ft before the acoustic panels. Of course your bulletproof wall assembly is going to outperform a diyer slapping GG and a second layer of drywall. Do you ever have foundation/ structural issues with all the weight?
Our rooms work at all frequency ranges for the barrier technologies. STC ratings are worthless when it comes to low frequencies. The STC scale starts at 125 Hz. and goes through 400 Hz. What good is an STC of 66 when the first frequencies it measures is 125 Hz. Taking up 10" of space to deal with 125 - 4,000 is a waste of space.
I understand your are talking about structural, low frequency sound, but I'm trying to understand how GG + drywall is different from Quietrock? I can't get Quietrock in my area, so if I were to use Quietglue Pro instead of GG between two layers of drywall, would I get better results? I'm sure that drywall with a viscoelastic sandwich from factory has better QC than trying to create that layer on site, but otherwise aren't they all essentially the same? To get 1" of Quietrock, is that two layers of half inch? I've only ever seen QR in 1/2, 5/8, and 1 3/8. I think your example wall designs are great BTW--that's a ton of mass! I'm just trying to understand the issue with GG as a product, not the wall designs their product has been tested with.
2 things that you abuse doing. Saying that something doesn't work, but not giving a lot detail about what really does and why. You answer pretty much everytime by saying at it depends on frequency. Look, people watch this video for soundproofing knowledge. It's about soundproofing, as much as possible, as low frequency as possible, ok, period. We want the smartest approach to get down as much as possible. Best low frequency blocking for that 10" space. Also, you are quick to say that green glue is expensive (and it is, and you're right, if it's about creating a thin air gap and decoupling the 2 layers of panels without wall, any flexible adhesive will do, but you don't really say how expensive is "the other approach". We see a message there that you want people to go to you so that you can sell them your solution, not really educate people to what to do. Just telling them what not to do... That's the main problem here I think.
The main problem is the lack of understanding of the physics by layman. I get calls everyday from people who use all of these methodologies and are disappointed with the results. Most of these methods are 40 - 50 years old. Most people recommending these options have never built a room in their life. I have built over 240 rooms and tested all. When you are trying to change belief systems that are not well founded in physics, you must first start with showing the unwarranted premises that people work from. The industry has played upon the ignorance of the customer. You must first start with discrediting the unwarranted parts of the belief system. We will be doing a series of videos on specific barriers we have used to treat noise issues on actual projects.
I am totally aligned with Daniel as I find the video quite interesting but prompt to criticism of other industries but no others details solution provided. I am sure that many of us will understand the physic contrary to what you say. Additionally, you are making no distinction in what you present between a music/home theater for example and a standard room which can be misleading. Not everyone will need a STC of 90 as an STC of 66 will be perfectly acceptable for most application. Obviously, if you could achieve an STC of 90 at the same cost of an STC of 66 then you have a valid argument but you provide no details of it and I seriously doubt as it seems that you will have to be build a lot mass to achieve such STC and any sound insulation product adding significant mass are very expensive. Therfore, rather than saying what doesn't work it would be more interesting to say what works and at which cost. Regards
@@AcousticFields you say that it doesn't work, but have you actually used the product? I haven't either but Orfield labs tested green glue vs construction adhesive sandwiched both between 5/8" drywall with r13 insulation in the wall, studs 24" on center adhesive stc was 37 vs green glue 55 even the competition to green glue was able to get an stc of 52 so while it won't make a room soundproof for a recording studio I think it definitely works better than adhesive and take your rebuttal of the ingredients are the same. if you look at just construction adhesives, some can only hold 100 lbs while others can hold 300 lbs. not even all adhesives are the same I would be happy to have some test results of cheap construction adhesive that works at 25% of the cost so if you have that data I would love to save a bunch of money
I would also like to know what you're talking about when you say you have a sheet for 10$ that will out preform green glue. If you're actually trying to offer practical advice on cost effective solutions and say that green glue is overpriced, you need to give a little more clarity here.
the amount of times that we have to tell architects that this new acoustic product they found won’t work is staggering 😹 Things like expanding foam and ... oh the nonsense haha but we build those walls in offices etc where you need some privacy etc but noise source is vocal range so it works ok
This process is limited to voice frequency responses. However, taking 10" of space to provide noise transmission for voice is not cost or space effective.
BUT, you know what he meant. I learned many years ago, from a college grammar professor, not to sweat the small stuff. As long as the reader gets the jist of what you say, it is fine.
My company uses green glue, and quiet rock with very good results, measuring or not. For Television noise, voices etc, if applied meticulously, these products do work. Expensive? Yes. With more people being crammed into shared spaces, and with housing costs so high, peace and privacy are paramount. This so called expert completely writing off these products without first hand knowledge seems suspect. Making a mountain out of a mole hill. I don't care if you stand in front of a chalk board, waving you hand over numbers. The proof is in the pudding.
@@brianness7720 No it makes perfect sense. I've looked at the Green Glue website. If you replace green glue with your typical adhesive with the quiet rock and/or MLV you'll have almost to matching results. When you say measure or not, that takes a little credit away from your statments. Measurements are all we can go by and if you can not produce the measurements to back claims in this line of work then it's just wasted air.
You try to sell your product by being condescending to a competitor, and get hits because you use the product name Green Glue in the titles. Great advertising!
Not condescending towards anything. We are trying to inform people that adhesives do not have any magical powers when it comes to reducing noise transmission especially when your noise issues fall below 100 Hz. If you are fortunate to have noise issues above 100 Hz. then using 10" of wall space with this methodology is not necessary. There are many ways to take up less space and get much better results.
@@AcousticFields I'm talking about your solution Dennis! Yes, Green Glue is a stupid rip off, but few people could afford what you are proposing as a solution with plywood, MDF, OSB, drywall, activated carbon etc.
With six layers of MLV and 8 layers of panel products, the mass alone will stop almost anything. But is it cost effective and fast to install? For example, installing 5 layers of panel products tightly between every wall stud is an installer's nightmare.
With our "sandwich" approach, the sandwiches are based upon the noise numbers. They are built seperately and installed between the studs.
This was one of the youtube videos that stopped be doing a project and instead i sold the house and bought full brick this time. Thanks for saving me a fortune on a huge project that would have wasted an awful lot of money
You are welcome. Brick is a good lower frequency barrier. When we use brick as our base material and add additional layers to the brick, you can get larger amounts of low end performance with only a few more inches of materials. If you take an 8" brick and add a few inches of the right material type, for that additional two inches of space lost, you can have a 16" thick brick performance.
If it was that simple houses are more expensive than ever lmao
Hi Dennis I have 2 questions about your wall design at 3:57 - how densly packed is your activated carbon, or is it loosley dropped in? And are those lines representing screws in the stud, or is it a laid in piece of MLV? Thanks!
Our carbon is processed in granule form. We control the porisity count, hole size, and granule density. We also treat the carbon for moisture retention. If the carbon absorbs moisture (humidity) it will lose performance. This is where people who cheat and use other carbon types will fail. After their carbon that is not treated absorbs a certian level of moisture, they quit working. This process takes around 6-12 months. They have done all of that work for nothing at great expense. Our barrier wall sandwiches are glued and then the barrier sandwich is screwed to the stud.
@@AcousticFields Thanks! Do you sell your carbon separately? Thanks for info on the stud construction too. I am now thinking a build of concrete block might be a good option with some kind of extra sandwich stud layer. Drums and neighbours don't mix well. Thanks again.
The standard double wall approach is only STC 66, but it won't cost an arm and a leg. Can you suggest a wall assembly that is just as effective, thinner, and doesn't cost more? It is easy to say the wall underperforms for its size, but I don't know of a better alternative that doesn't cost more. Any guidance would be appreciated!
What are the frequency and amplitudes of your noise issues?
@@AcousticFields Acoustic Fields great question, thank you! In my context it is for a home theatre in the basement of a house and the goal is to keep the noise from the theatre away from the rest of the house and vice versa. Not worried about neighbours
Quietrock is dampened drywall, same concept as green glue (not an adhesive).
I am about to start on converting my attic for home studio/office. I am in Ireland so looking at 15mm acoustic drywall, tecsound sy70 and then 12.5mm drywall for stud walls (filled with fibreglass insulation). Party walls will be mustwall 33b with 12.5mm drywall. Floor will be insulated with fibreglass insulation, OSB 18mm subfloor, Tecsound 50, another layer of OSB 12mm, Sylpro 5mm and then laminate flooring. Will this be enough to watch a movie at normal levels at night / game and have conversations without waking my kids?
Not even close to a full frequency range solution at most theater amplitudes.
I'm getting ready to attempt to help out with terrible road noise in my bedroom. I'm going for double layer 5/8 drywall over the existing 1/2 inch. I just can't bring myself to pull the trigger on the green glue the price is absolutely out of line. There has to be a better way. Please advise. I don't want to smooth out the existing wall either it's light texture. I have spent weeks reading and learning about sound proofing and I'm not even going to attempt de coupling or wall within a wall I just need to block low deep noise from cars in front of my house. I found your videos and I feel you are correct green glue can't be anything more than silicone caulking noise wise. Please advise I'm putting two layers of 5/8 on top of 1/2 was going to put green glue in between but the cost is more than all the other materials. Would 30 pound tar paper in between be something to add mass. I'm just trying to lower the deep road noise. Thankyou
You are guessing which is a waste of time and money when it comes to noise transmission. The methodologies you are considering work only for middle and high frequency noise issues and poorly at that. If your road noise is below 125 hz. you will not attenuate any of those octave bands. You must measure noise over a seven day time period to know the maximum and minimum pressure issues. You design the barrier for the lowest frequency and the highest amplitude during the one week of noise measurements.
@@AcousticFields Thank you for taking the time to reply to to a layman. I will simply try and plug up all gaps add mass and hopefully get some result.
The garbage 4:15 pm truck is generating mechanical vibrations right?.
Air borne wave energy that strikes the wall turns into vibrational acoustics.
Was just studying you're wall assembly. A few questions. What does a wall like this cost per wall sq ft? It appears each stud is spaced maybe 6" or 8" on center... Is that correct? Why the use of 3x6 instead if standard 2x6? Lastly, I've used mass loaded vinyl before to wrap HVAC ducts in my current room but where do I buy the activated carbon panels?
Thanks for your great content. I watched your channel years ago. I recently had started building bass traps with mineral wool and now I'm re thinking it after seeing your video on it! . Need to rethink things for my next room!
You can cost it out. All materials are shown. We can sell you the carbon.
You see all that Mass Loaded Vinyl in like 8+ layers total? That will cost a TON of money. I'm sure his design can do a great job without Green Glue but the reality is getting much above 65 STC starts costing exponentially more money.
Panels filled with building insulation lack the proper rate and level of lower frequency absorption that is required for music and voice. We can assist you will a quote on DIY carbon technology. Send us an email to info@acousticfields.coma
While your construction outperforms the similar setup with green glue, it would be nice to see how thick you'd need to match the STC 66 with your approach
TL can be calculated
Re watch the video again. We discuss that issue.
@@AcousticFields I live in a apartment I can hear my neighbors tv radio and talking clearly......what can I do to soundproof a existing wall .
@@organicfireorganicfire1236 watch the video again
Just wondering, are you saying that constrained layer dampening doesn't work?
Evrery material type and construction methodology is frequency and amplitude spacific. Certain materials work in certain configurtaions to attenuate certain octave bands of noise. There is no one size fits all noise.
@@AcousticFields That's true but constrained layer dampening does work otherwise the Navy wouldn't be using it on submarines and ships. Whether or not Green Glue works is a different question. I've never tried it, probably never will because any similar lower cost product that remains elastic will accomplish the same thing.
I do agree with you, Green Glue is pure gimmick but only because it is over priced and probably no better than less expensive options. Constrained layer dampening however is a valid technology widely used in military applications. I'm just not convinced Green Glue is a good implementation of it.
How would I minimize hearing bass from upstairs neighbors. What would I have to do to existing ceiling? I’m considering plugging my bass into my amp and fight fire with fire. I currently use headphones to spare them but they don’t seem to have the same mindset. I want to fix this problem because if it’s not this neighbor it will be the next. I own my unit (condo).
The transmission of low frequency energy can be minimized with the proper barrier technology. You will have to measure the noise and then we can assist you with the barrier design. You will need to build a room within a room that has walls that are 8 - 12" thick.
@@AcousticFields Doesn't this contradict what you are saying in the video at 2:21???
Why do you use quiet rock if you think green glue doesn't work? Very confusing.
Not confusing at all. You are talking about two material types that have different densities which will "treat" different frequencies and amplitudes. What are the frequency and amplitudes of your noise issues?
@@AcousticFields Why would you use quiet rock and not just plane old drywall? Does the viscoelastic compound in quiet rock help treat different frequencies and amplitudes?
@@stephencurran8307
Great question
@@FOH3663 I know what works. I have seen and actually built things in real life. I know these ideas are cute and work out on paper but not everything on paper works out in real life.
@@stephencurran8307
Same
I'm in the process of building a room within a room for my drum kit. I am thinking about using the soundproof joist tape, 1.5 inch drywall and allowing 2 inches from wall and ceiling (no contact).
What's your opinion about my project, any suggestions?.
You are using a feather to stop a tornado. Drums are full range instruments that require a full frequency range barrier that will be 6 - 8" deep and contain numerous layers of materials. We can assist you with the room design. Fill out the information in this link:
www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/
What instrument(s) do you use to measure frequency and amplitude of noise over 7 days? Do you have a video for that? Thank you. Just discovered your channel and I am very noise sensitive but I know nothing about this science. I rent, but when I buy my home, this will be a priority. Neighbors are so loud: leaf blowers, chainsaws, lawn mowers, speeding cars, the teenage kid down the street who practices drums in his garage: I can't think straight while working from home. Even the refrigerator motor noise inside the house gets to me after a while. The noise is non-stop. Thank you! So glad there is some hope beyond earplugs.
Go to app store and download the RTA pro app. It will show you frequency and amplitude.
Your alternative assembly has 4 layers of 1/4" MLV, which is more expensive than GG. MLV is not hung limp, the actual studs still connect front and back wall layers, there is activated carbon inside "studs"... How does it actually work?
Our proprietary carbon technology is used between the studs in a wall build or inside the cabinet in a freestanding build. MLV is a vibration reducing technology when sandwiched between material types and layers.
@@AcousticFields So, you are replacing 2 layers of $1/sq.ft. compound with 4 layers of 2 lbs MLV at $4/sq.ft. each layer and proprietary materials. How is that a reasonable comparison?
Can you please tell us what the STC is of your set up without using your proprietary diaphragmatic absorbers in between the walls?
IOW just using the 1" gyprock, 0.5" ply with MLV sandwiched in between.
Thanks
You are confusing sound absorption technology with barrier technology. Our carbon technology absorbs low frequency energy. It is not designed to reduce noise transmission. Reducing noise transmission is a completely different science and requires a different approach to treat.
@@AcousticFields You didn't answer my question though... The question was "what STC is the image you show minus your diaphragmatic absorber?" If the absorber isn't completely filling every boundary surely you know what the STC rating is of the materials used combined in the image you show otherwise why show it then say "ours is 90%." I only want to know the STC without the absorber or is that image not 90% and that you are dodging around the question and for what!?
I'm not trying to slander, prove or disprove anything here, I'd just like an answer please.
From looking at the digraphm, it's not a diaphragmatic absorber like their ACDA units. Go look at the difference in looking cross section diagrams...
Doesn't Quietrock use viscoelastic damping compound (like green glue) between its layers?
We are not familiar with this process.
@@AcousticFields what do you mean? This is a known fact; I thought; it's on their website, as well as Wikipedia, etc. There's no confusion about that; my confusion is why you are against Green Glue which is a similar (if not the same just differently branded) material, but you are using Quietrock whose main component is that same viscoelastic polymer, in your solution. Perhaps the legitimate debate is about uniformity, as you mentioned, i.e.: Quietrock vs. DIY Green Glue solutions, meaning that Quietrock may be applying the material between its layers with required uniformity, which is difficult to achieve DIY with a caulk gun?
P.s. I am not a professional; just researching a solution for my apartment.
@@Omnisci314
Indeed, bizarre.
Sorbothane is a better damper than Mass Loaded Vinyl, why not use it for everything, glue included?
What do you mean by better?
@@AcousticFields Not sure where my comment went, but they claim to be better at damping than anything else.
@@RoboticusMusic Better at what frequencies? Better at what amplitudes?
@@AcousticFields I think it's the whole frequency range compared to any other product given the same dimensions. I think it's about 10x more expensive than MLV.
@@RoboticusMusic So you are guessing. Guessing with noise is foolish.
I'm wondering if Green Glue should be compared to MLV or maybe Sorbothane, since they are both used in between two layers of another solid material. ie. Sheet Rock, plywood, etc...
It is difficult to make comparisons. One can make density comparisons but that is where things can get confusing. Along with density, you must marry the density of the chosen material with the density of the next layer to produce a synergy between the two where two materials act as one barrier.
@@AcousticFields Could one figure out what the STC is by taking two of the same materials (sheetrock, or Plywood, etc.) and comparing GG vs MLV vs another material to see what the results would be and how they might differ? I'm just spitballing. The reason is I'm looking at your design which uses MLV between various materials vs GG in the other design that uses sheetrock. If you took the sheetrock example and put MLV instead of GG, how much different would the results be? Would there be any difference? Have you done any testing on that?
@@Oneness100
Great question...
Finally someone who put attention to thefact that most popular solutions are frequnsy dependant and work for higher ones only.
Thank you for stating that truth.
By my estimation your method is about 10 times the cost of the Green Glue and double drywall method. This isn't really an apples to oranges comparison. In part 1 you brought up cost per foot and said you had a "sheet for $10" that could outperform the GG. Please elaborate as to what that sheet would be and what would be a better method at around that $1/SF range. Thanks so much for the time!
What is the frequency and amplitude of your noise issue?
@@AcousticFields my sub is rated down to 35 kz, sometimes I listen to my stereo north of 85 db. I'm a home do it yourself"er" who is converting the 2 car garage into my rock bar. The problem is I have one L shaped adjoining wall that the low end transfers through that the Mrs. does not enjoy. Both walls have 5/8" drywall and am looking for the best cost effective solution to keep those low frequencies within my rock space. I have about 2-1/4" to work with coming off the face of the existing drywall in the garage. Any sort of insight is greatly appreciated! Thank you so much
*hz
@@AcousticFields hello, not sure if you saw my response to this. Would really love some insight here! Thanks
@@AcousticFields does my response not warrant an answer here? Not sure what happened. Was really hoping for some help here.
Dennis, you are the only person I trust for acoustical treatment done RIGHT. I can't find anyone else that has a level of knowledge comparable to you. Per your advice, I'm tearing out (very carefully) my homemade mineral rock "acoustical panels" and "bass traps" that took a week to build, and was not cheap. Yes, they help a little, at least stopped the reflections, but I know I'll never get truly "pro" mixing until I get my room treated properly. I'm saving up...hope to get started soon!
Building insulation is toxic and will not provide the proper rates and levels of absorption required for music and voice. Music and voice are different than noise. Most absorption products in the marketplace are "designed" for noise meaning they absorb as much as possible per square foot of surface area.
I feel like you're only talking about sound transmission through walls, not sound quality IN the room. I live alone and I could care less what the sound does through the walls in my basement with 3 block walls, what I want is a solid foundation for sound quality IN the room. I'm thinking the Glue would have some benefit to reducing in-room vibrations of materials against each other, therefore have a lower noise floor for the listener. I want to go with 5/8" drywall and glue with heavy insulation but my carpenter insists on 1/2" drywall and no glue at all. Gonna be some light 2x4 walls I think. Hopefully it's good enough, I wired for 4 subs, lol.
Your noise methodology will not work for frequencies below 125 Hz. and is a waste of space and materials for frequencies above 125 Hz. Why would you use 50 year old technology to stop noise that never worked well in the first place.
Hi, Brilliant video. I love it when people cut through the BS. May I ask why activated carbon is used? Apologies in advance if you have already covered this, I have only recently found your channel. Thanks in advance.
With diaphragmatic absorption, its all about the rate and level of absorption. The cabinet depth determines the resonant frequency of the cabinet. Frequencies above the resonant frequency are absorbed. Frequencies below the resonant frequency are not absorbed. The internal cabinet fill determines the rate of absorption or how much energy is absorbed per square foot of cabinet surface area. Carbon has large surface areas for absorption to occur.
@@AcousticFields Wow thanks for the super speedy response. Just wading my way through all your videos now. Thanks from UK.
AC has a large rate of absorption across many octave bands if used correctly.
I have a house near a busy road and have been trying to get sound levels down. I’ve learned a lot about sound properties from your page. I have added storm window with a high STC rating and managed to get the exterior sound levels down. But not perfect yet. I’ve determined that now my walls are the weak link. I need just a little more sound protection and wanted to know what would be the best route with least effort. I am willing to add a metal hat channel and another layer of drywall, but would I fill in the cavity with sound dampening fiberglass insulation or just leave it as a open pocket? Or would you have a better suggestion?
What are the frequencies and amplitudes of the noise?
@@AcousticFields it would be car muffler noise so low frequencies and about 40 decibels are shown from meter inside.
@@chaderickson1694 Is is 40 Hz. or 40 dB at 40 Hz.
40 decibels at 80 hz
Dennis, we are so fortunate to have you to show us, empirically, why so many of the supposed acoustic products are just advertising noise, with no actual acoustic benefit.
In addition to 'green glue' and corner bass traps, I'm thinking of foam 'bass traps' and foam 'diffusers'.
You've said it before, as have I, DRYWALL SOUNDS TERRIBLE. No way around it.
My favorite is the foam corner "bass trap". Placing absorption in the corners of rooms goes against the very definition of an axial mode. An axial mode occurs between two parallel wall surfaces, not two parallel corners. Corners only represent about 10 % of the actual surface area that is producing the unwanted modal pressure. How can you treat the issues produced by the two parallel walls by treating only 10% of the offending surface areas.
I definitely agree that consumers and "professionals" (contractors whose qualitative understanding of the physics is significantly below the intellectual level of a Sesame Street song) fundamentally misunderstand how a given product, or solution, can be applied to a complex problem like soundproofing or acoustic isolation/deadening under an "arbitrary" external perturbation, most likely a combination of vehicle traffic, common frequencies from subwoofers and midrange speakers, and nearby impact noise (from human activity close enough to couple through the structure)n I also agree that EVERY industry, and certainly the construction industry, aggressively exploits this misunderstanding and that the "professionals" are AT LEAST as susceptible to this intentional manipulation as consumers.
To make matters even worse, US contractors and consumers are equally "religiously partisan" with respect to specific products (Like Green Glue.... or Dynamat in other situations) or specific design schemes as they are with respect to partisan politics..... get enough contractors in a room and you can get them rioting over green glue vs resilient channels just like the worst of our civics at this moment in time.
The one thing I will say about the design scheme in the video is that I highly doubt you can "convince" an inspector to approve and certify a void filled with activated carbon as up to code. Certainly not in all 50 states and regional building codes.
The building code distinction of products like Green Glue vs better solutions that have been engineered but might be "unconventional" (merely because of stupidity by the authorities) is a big reason for the big $$ price. And yes..... the code distinction is meaningless and all it really means is that the manufacturer jumped through the hoops, grease the appropriate political wheels, but does NOT represent any actual real safety or performance disticnction.
Your doubts have no basis in fact. We achieve approval everyday in projects all over the world.
I just drywalled my studio but am planning on doing a second layer ...
I have an opportunity to buy *3/4" Particle Board for $10 a sheet.*
Would this be better on the second layer vs Drywall?
What are the frequency and amplitude of your noise issues?
@@AcousticFields under 125 Hz mainly. Loud amplitudes, live drums...
@@levijessegonzalez3629 You will need a wall thickness of 8-12"
This video makes me more curious about the correlation of humidity/temperature/altitude to air density and its acoustic properties with each factor.
Not a lrage factor to consider. Spend your time treating the low-frequency issues within the room. The cost benefit ratio to doing this is well worth the effort.
I just want to stop my neighbors from calling the law when I play music or watch tv...So what is the cheapest way to stop sound from getting out of my building.
There is no cheap solution when it comes to noise. You must build a permanent structure that is designed to mange the frequency and amplitude of your noise numbers. It would be much better on the neighbors and your hearing to turn down. You should also increase the resolution of your room through treatment. This will allow you to listen at lower levels since you will hear more music.
Dennis, I very much appreciate and enjoy your videos. I really love the depth you go into. However all I'm trying to do is dampen my room in a linear way. I am considering hanging some memory foam behind some blackout draperies. I'm confident I am overlooking something basic, but I'm on a tight budget. Your thoughts?
Thanks, keep the faith
It is difficult to achieve linearity when you are using material types that do not have published rates and levels of absorption. Linearity is all about rate and level of absorption.
@@AcousticFields thanks for your quick response 👍
I love how you're basing every word you say on pure physics and you say this in a "I can't believe I even have to say this" tone.
You have to understand the physics behind the treatment types. If you don't know the why, you can never know the what.
Wtf r u listening to? Not one word on physics, not one
Can anyone recommend any good books or articles on the theory behind all this? I'd like to understand the basics before I start bothering people with hundreds of my questions:) For instance I don't understand the schematic Dennis showed, if the activated carbon works so well then why are we using only 2 1/2" of it?
There are other videos that Dennis has done where he talks about using different types of materials for sound barrier technology and he says you have to figure out the frequencies and amplitudes that you are dealing with and then he has to figure out what materials to use, what order in sequence. So everyone's situation could potentially be a different barrier design. this is just one example, but your situation might require a completely different wall structure using similar or possibly other materials, varying thickness, etc.
I'm no expert and I'm sure Dennis can correct me if i'm wrong, but my understanding is that even though the carbon is the workhorse of that design, having the different layer densities and thicknesses is crucial.
@@jacobwhite936 Think of the carbon as the fill material and you have to figure out the "cabinet" surrounding it.
@@Oneness100 Great analogy.I was just pointing out that varying layers are essential for a good barrier.
Dennis, another things that's permeating is the use of those resilient systems…. Maybe you should do a video on that.
We have done many videos about barrier technologies. Most of the technologies used were used 50 years ago and people keep repeating the same old mistakes. Barrier technology has come a long way in the last 10 years but people keep repeating the same "mistakes". Most people that purport barrier technology on the net have never built a room. Its obvious from their comments that they do not understand vibrational acoustics.
@@AcousticFields I was watching some build a room or renovating an older home that do work with structural engineers.
They say how they are soundproof and built to code, yet they many times don't explain what frequency range they are effective in, some don't even mention the STC rating, some do, but they act like it's all one needs to build a sound proof room… The big deal tech seems to be resilient channels since Cities are now demanding those with new builds. but form what I can tell it looks like a metal piece that decouples and adds a small air gap. Am I missing anything, is that all it's doing?
They aren't even doing double 2x4's either, but they act like they are building the best soundproof wall and I guess people just assume that they'll work for music related applications.. Some of them say how they work with home theater rooms, stereos, etc. which is nonsense. but they get away with it and people buy into it..
What’s the price difference between the 2 methods?
What two methods are you referring to?
@@AcousticFields green glue versus your method
There are no two barrier methods the same. You must measure the frequency and amplitude of the noise issues you are having over a seven day period. We are looking for the frequency and amplitude that is the lowest and loudest over the 7 day period. We then design the barrier that you build. Every material type and construction methodology depends on the noise issues (frequency and amplitude) you are dealing with. The double wall approach takes up a lot of space, is 40 year old "technology ", and only works above 100 Hz. Its a waste of time, space, and money.
Hi, I from Russia and I want soundproofing my room with green glue, can you give me suggestion about green glue and 2 drywall? It’s not working??
You must first measure the frequency and amplitude of the noise. This data tells you what to build, what materials to use, what way to arrange the materials and how thick the walls need to be. Without noise numbers you are just guessing and guessing with noise is a fool's game. When you guess wrong which most do, you may have to tear it all out and start over again.
@@AcousticFields thank you, its very professional approach, BUT for average person who live in wooden house with noisy neighbors behind the wall and opened tv, what advice you can give me?
And you not answer my question: green glue is not working? In my situation green glue can work?
I like this guy :-) refreshing to hear someone else with a sound mind
Thank you for your support.
Great video. What about using the isolated double wall but filling the 2x4 studs with carbon? Maybe you could MDF both sides of the air gap between the walls and fill with carbon?
What are the frequency and amplitude of your noise transmission issues?
Acoustic Fields I'm a drummer and hit very hard, so like every frequency and the highest amplitude. I would think that two 3.5 inch layers of carbon would really attenuate low end energy
Great advise to take the time and take measurements and use that data. In the case of a cinder block wall you cant line both sides as per your design of plywood with 1/2 plywood, mass loaded vinyl and 1" quiteroc so would doing the inside of a cinder wall work or would you use a completely different approach?. Thanks again for these video, always learning.
What are the frequency and amplitude of your noise issues?
@@AcousticFields Im not sure yet as this is a room Im stripping out and converting is there any point in taking measurement when it a bare shell? Cheers
What are the frequencies and amplitudes of your noise issues?
So I am going to hang 3/4 Rubber Horse Mats 4' by 6' on my 6" studs in my Mobile Home & listen to my 15" Horn Driven Vintage EV 1250" each Powered by a 500 Watt Allesis RM500 AB Amplifiers at Low easy listening level & it will work. I wrapped 3 Work Rubber floor Mats around my Radio Boom Box, 2 wrapped around & 1 draped over then a pressed the left & right sides tightly together & the sound was reduced more than half. 3/4 Rubber Horse Mats is sound proofing that works.
There is no such thing as "soundproofing". Nothing with noise is "proofed". There are many variables to consider. It depends what the frequency and amplitude of the noise, it depends on what time of day it occurs, it depends on room size and volume, it depend on flanking noise issues, it depends on room usage, it depends. Nothing with noise is black and white. Stop looking for the black and white. It doesn't exist. Trust me. If it had, I would have found it by now.
@@AcousticFields Thankyou I can barely (hear) you through my 3/4" Rubber Horse Mats.
I can clearly hear my annoying neighbor from the other room and he refuses to wear headphones, what can i place on my wall to cut down the noise by at least 90%, it's causing me anxiety and stress.
There are no wall hanging panels for noise. All noise issues require a permanent construction fix.
Thanks for the video! Which QuietRock product(s) did you get tested with the assembly that you've shown? I only see a 1/2, 5/8, and 1-3/8 inch product on QuietRock's website. Two of the 1/2-inch, perhaps?
What are the frequency and amplitude of your noise issues? Material type, density, and construction methodology all depend on the frequency and amplitude of your noise issues.
@@AcousticFields aircraft flying overhead?
@@AcousticFields I have an issue with hearing cabinet doors closing through the wall. Would it be beneficial to just add a layer of QR 530 right on top of the current dry wall?
Sir, you provide so much outstanding information it is a real service to the audio community. When I was building my studios I would scour Recording Engineer Producer mag, and F. Alton Everest's book for this kind of info. You provide so much more! Thank you!
Thank you for your support.
The Quietrock product you show in your example uses a viscoelastic layer. Guess what? Green Glue is a viscoelastic layering product, the same product you keep bashing. Bashing this product would be like bashing the MLV product you also use in your example. Green Glue and MLV are small components of a larger solution to address a problem. You are basically saying in this, and your Part 1 video, that $30,000 cars suck because Bentley is a much better car. You are comparing apples and oranges. There are tons and tons of people that are happy with the result they get from Green Glue (and other viscoelastic products like it) as part of a comprehensive solution including decoupling with things like clips and channel. Just read the many positive reviews from home theater builders in avsforum.com for example. I have no doubt the example alternative you offer here is superior for higher STC, but it has a significantly higher cost too. Does Green Glue alone offer smaller improvements than 4 layers of MLV + 2 layers of Quietrock + 2 layers of plywoord + 2.5" of carbon + more? It most likely does. But for people that are home theater enthusiasts or have budget studios looking for proven economical solutions, and find your videos that make absolute claims like "this product is nonsense!" just serves to confuse and misinform people.
Green glue is an adhesive marketed as as a viscoelastic layer. Read the ingredients on the label. If you want to spend more money on glue for your barrier design that is your choice. It is not the adhesive that produces the performance. It is the layering of materials and the air space which is considered a layering material. We receive numerous calls each day from people who have used this method and are unhappy with low frequency transmission. There are many barrier options that take up less space and perform better. We prefer solutions that treat the complete frequency spectrum especially for home theaters where low-frequency energy issues predominate.
@@AcousticFields I understand you prefer solutions that treat the complete frequency spectrum. And thats awesome. Your videos prove you guys can build barriers with superior STC ratings in the very difficult to fix
People can be happy and unhappy for many reasons. Most of these companies play upon the ignorance of the very people they sell to. Green glue is just what the name implies. It is an adhesive. To attribute some magical barrier benefits to it is ridiculous. It is an adhesive nothing more and that adhesive is a micro part of a macro design. Once again, MLV is just one part of a total acoustical "spring" system that reduces noise transmission. You can not claim that "MLV does not solve that issue either." You are following in the footsteps of the green glue crowd.
The point is, MLV does not "solve" the issue, it contributes to the overall solution, just like viscoelastic polymer layers.
Yes, it is one material type out of hundreds that we use in our barrier designs. The key to understanding each individual noise frequency and amplitude issue is what material type works best at what frequency and amplitude. Most material types have little value by themselves. Its when they are used in conjunction with other material types that the real synergy occurs.
How about 8” of solid concrete?
What are the frequency and amplitude issues of your noise? Remember there is no one barrier solution that fits all noise transmission issues.
You clearly know what you're talking about, and maybe your method is one of the better ones created, but it can't possibly be cost effective to use whatolks to be 8 layers of MLV IN ADDITION to several layers of your own product, and a whole lot of plywood.
That just seems like it would be astronomically expensive. In your opinion, is this one of the more cost effective solutions? I have a 25' by 13' room I'm trying to treat. My budget would have to be enormous to pull something like that off.
And to clarify, I need a full range solution. It doesn't need to be entirely soundproofed, as it's its own separated building from my house, but I plan on recording drums which will be likely the loudest source besides maybe mixing songs with a lot of bass.
Let's say full range of spectrum at 110+DB and if I could get like 70db reduction of that it would be perfectly fine.
Totally open to exploring your products and solutions.
We do not sell barrier technology. We do design with noise and treatment but only sell design products absorption /diffusion. All barrier material types are frequency and amplitude dependent. This means that for every noise frequency and its strength you must use a certain material type with the appropriate density. Step one, you must take noise numbers so you know what material types to use based upon your noise numbers. Using multiple layers of the same material type regardless of the noise numbers is never desired. Without noise numbers to guide you, you are just guessing and guessing with noise is never a good idea. If you guess wrong and you build something that does not work, you will have to tear it out and start over. no one wants to do that. Measure twice, cut once.
Drums are the third full range source when it comes to noise transmission. The first is a jet airplane then a gong then drums. You must pay special attention to the noise levels in the neighborhood where your drum room will be located. We build a lot of studios in LA and the noise levels in most neighbor hoods drop by 40% after 11 pm. and neighbors are 6' away. If you play your drums at the same level you did during the day when ambient levels are higher and your noise output is masked by background noise, you will be heard by neighbors.
Dennis, Something I don't think you touched upon.
Let's pretend that someone had a big enough room where they didn't have any major issues below 40hz, and they built the entire room (walls and ceiling) using the design you have in this video. Would someone still need additional ACDA type technology in addition to the "shell" of the room that's using your design OR would they just need to add foam and diffusion for mid/high frequency treatment?
Thanks!
Yes. Video above has nothing to do with in-room acoustic. It's about sound proofing to the outside.
A man that tell it like it is. Love it. And that s**t is not cheap either.
It is an expensive adhesive.
Wow that's an expensive wall. Plywood, MDF, OSB, Vinyl Mass, Activated carbon, and Quietrock.
Noise is expensive. It can be 5-6 times more than absorption/diffusion treatment costs.
I do not think he considers the labor involved. I think he just specs out the project and has never installed any sound mitigation treatments himself.
So the design in your diagram calls for 8 sheets total of 1/4" vinyl across the barrier? that's a lot of mass, which I guess buys you the lower frequency attenuation. I'm a drummer so definitely want as much low frequency attenuation as possible. Im just a couple weeks away from construction of my garage to drum studio conversion project, essentially using the former design you criticize, so you have me pausing. hmmmm....
I do not know what design you are referring to. The standard double wall with this adhesive type does not reach below 125 Hz. It won't help you with your drum room.
@@AcousticFields Am I correct that your diagram shown at 7:06 in the video is calling for 8 layers total of 1/4" MLV?
With drums, you will need to create a wall that is 12" deep. The construction methodology will be determined after noise measurements have been taken in the neighborhood.
I would buy Green Glue honestly
What frequency and amplitude of noise would you be using it to reduce the noise transmission of?
This guy is the man!
The comparison is apples to oranges. Your design is using 4 layers of 1/4" MLV an inch thick in total. With 1/2" plywood? The cost is astronomical compared to double drywall.
Its always cost versus benefit with noise. Your method takes up a lot of space and is only effective above 125 Hz. If your noise issues are above 125 Hz. and you have that space requirement to use then this method will work although poorly. Noise transmission efforts below 125 Hz. require much more costly solutions. This is why companies tell you this double wall methodology will work for all noise. It is cheap, easy to build, but what they don't tell you is that it won't work below 125 cycles. I get calls everyday from those who have used this method and are not happy. Unfortunately, the fix in most cases is to tear it out and start again.
Very interesting alternative in your wall design using the carbon fiber. Would you use decoupling techniques if installing this in a home environment to isolate from the existing structure? Especially for rooms where sound transmission leaks through the ceiling to upper floors.
All materials and installation methodologies are directly related to the frequency and amplitude of your noise transmission issues. Every material you use along with the way you assemble those materials depends on noise measurements. This fact is so critical, we will not assist any project for noise transmission issues without noise numbers over a seven day period. Since we guarantee our work, we must quantify and qualify any issue before treatment design.
Heeeelllpppp!!! I need to soundproof my drum room! The room has its walls up so I can’t rebuild everything, what’s the best thing for me to add to walls?
You will have to measure the frequency and amplitude of the noise in the drum room. You will need to measure the frequency and amplitude of the noise in the rooms where the noise is transmitting to. The difference between those numbers is the effectiveness of the existing barrier you have between the rooms. Once that is determined you can then design the proper barrier technology to make up the difference required.
Makes sense, thank you for the response, I’m checking out your website now
why is this product so popular if it doesnt work?
It works as an adhesive. Granted an expensive one. Popularity does not represent quality. Remember over 100 million still smoke.
I am moving into a new house next weekend and I am super excited about measuring my new space.
Dennis-that 90 db reduction wall is quite complicated I count over ten layers, including several MDF AND heavy vinyl.
This is what it takes to slow down 30 Hz. energy.
This is the first acoustic fields video I saw and almost dismissed you guys as it's a little ridiculous to be ragging on green glue/damping compounds and drywall--mainly for the company testing a huge variety of wall designs, then in your graphic you show you use damping compound and drywall...plus plywood, osb, mdf, and layers of 2lb MLV. I'm sure it works great but your room appears to cost around $50/sq ft before the acoustic panels. Of course your bulletproof wall assembly is going to outperform a diyer slapping GG and a second layer of drywall. Do you ever have foundation/ structural issues with all the weight?
All structural issues are identified prior to installation.
Our rooms work at all frequency ranges for the barrier technologies. STC ratings are worthless when it comes to low frequencies. The STC scale starts at 125 Hz. and goes through 400 Hz. What good is an STC of 66 when the first frequencies it measures is 125 Hz. Taking up 10" of space to deal with 125 - 4,000 is a waste of space.
I understand your are talking about structural, low frequency sound, but I'm trying to understand how GG + drywall is different from Quietrock? I can't get Quietrock in my area, so if I were to use Quietglue Pro instead of GG between two layers of drywall, would I get better results? I'm sure that drywall with a viscoelastic sandwich from factory has better QC than trying to create that layer on site, but otherwise aren't they all essentially the same? To get 1" of Quietrock, is that two layers of half inch? I've only ever seen QR in 1/2, 5/8, and 1 3/8.
I think your example wall designs are great BTW--that's a ton of mass! I'm just trying to understand the issue with GG as a product, not the wall designs their product has been tested with.
I guess what am I asking is if there's a huge difference between (3/4") particle board and plywood.
It depends on what the other materials are that are required and always the frequency and amplitude of the noise.
Thank you for helping me to decide for my next HT. I will replace this glue with an additional heavy sheetrock.
Adding material types without knowing the frequency and amplitude of your noise issues is a waste of time, money, and materials.
2 things that you abuse doing. Saying that something doesn't work, but not giving a lot detail about what really does and why. You answer pretty much everytime by saying at it depends on frequency. Look, people watch this video for soundproofing knowledge. It's about soundproofing, as much as possible, as low frequency as possible, ok, period. We want the smartest approach to get down as much as possible. Best low frequency blocking for that 10" space. Also, you are quick to say that green glue is expensive (and it is, and you're right, if it's about creating a thin air gap and decoupling the 2 layers of panels without wall, any flexible adhesive will do, but you don't really say how expensive is "the other approach". We see a message there that you want people to go to you so that you can sell them your solution, not really educate people to what to do. Just telling them what not to do... That's the main problem here I think.
The main problem is the lack of understanding of the physics by layman. I get calls everyday from people who use all of these methodologies and are disappointed with the results. Most of these methods are 40 - 50 years old. Most people recommending these options have never built a room in their life. I have built over 240 rooms and tested all. When you are trying to change belief systems that are not well founded in physics, you must first start with showing the unwarranted premises that people work from. The industry has played upon the ignorance of the customer. You must first start with discrediting the unwarranted parts of the belief system. We will be doing a series of videos on specific barriers we have used to treat noise issues on actual projects.
I am totally aligned with Daniel as I find the video quite interesting but prompt to criticism of other industries but no others details solution provided. I am sure that many of us will understand the physic contrary to what you say. Additionally, you are making no distinction in what you present between a music/home theater for example and a standard room which can be misleading. Not everyone will need a STC of 90 as an STC of 66 will be perfectly acceptable for most application. Obviously, if you could achieve an STC of 90 at the same cost of an STC of 66 then you have a valid argument but you provide no details of it and I seriously doubt as it seems that you will have to be build a lot mass to achieve such STC and any sound insulation product adding significant mass are very expensive. Therfore, rather than saying what doesn't work it would be more interesting to say what works and at which cost. Regards
Green glue works. Contrary to your obvious bias.
It works exactly as its supposed to.
So does standard construction adhesive at 25% of the cost. Compare the ingrediants of both. They are identical.
@@AcousticFields you say that it doesn't work, but have you actually used the product?
I haven't either but Orfield labs tested green glue vs construction adhesive
sandwiched both between 5/8" drywall with r13 insulation in the wall, studs 24" on center
adhesive stc was 37 vs green glue 55
even the competition to green glue was able to get an stc of 52
so while it won't make a room soundproof for a recording studio I think it definitely works better than adhesive
and take your rebuttal of the ingredients are the same. if you look at just construction adhesives, some can only hold 100 lbs while others can hold 300 lbs. not even all adhesives are the same
I would be happy to have some test results of cheap construction adhesive that works at 25% of the cost so if you have that data I would love to save a bunch of money
I would also like to know what you're talking about when you say you have a sheet for 10$ that will out preform green glue. If you're actually trying to offer practical advice on cost effective solutions and say that green glue is overpriced, you need to give a little more clarity here.
What are the frequency and amplitude of your noise issues?
@@AcousticFields Did you even read the question? 🙄
the amount of times that we have to tell architects that this new acoustic product they found won’t work is staggering 😹 Things like expanding foam and ... oh the nonsense haha
but we build those walls in offices etc where you need some privacy etc but noise source is vocal range so it works ok
This process is limited to voice frequency responses. However, taking 10" of space to provide noise transmission for voice is not cost or space effective.
Awesome channel... You spelled different wrong !!! Lol
BUT, you know what he meant. I learned many years ago, from a college grammar professor, not to sweat the small stuff. As long as the reader gets the jist of what you say, it is fine.
Let me guess. You must take measurements. Then apply the products accordingly. Otherwise, you are just guessing, and then I can't help you.
My company uses green glue, and quiet rock with very good results, measuring or not. For Television noise, voices etc, if applied meticulously, these products do work. Expensive? Yes. With more people being crammed into shared spaces, and with housing costs so high, peace and privacy are paramount. This so called expert completely writing off these products without first hand knowledge seems suspect. Making a mountain out of a mole hill. I don't care if you stand in front of a chalk board, waving you hand over numbers. The proof is in the pudding.
@@brianness7720 No it makes perfect sense. I've looked at the Green Glue website. If you replace green glue with your typical adhesive with the quiet rock and/or MLV you'll have almost to matching results. When you say measure or not, that takes a little credit away from your statments. Measurements are all we can go by and if you can not produce the measurements to back claims in this line of work then it's just wasted air.
You try to sell your product by being condescending to a competitor, and get hits because you use the product name Green Glue in the titles. Great advertising!
Not condescending towards anything. We are trying to inform people that adhesives do not have any magical powers when it comes to reducing noise transmission especially when your noise issues fall below 100 Hz. If you are fortunate to have noise issues above 100 Hz. then using 10" of wall space with this methodology is not necessary. There are many ways to take up less space and get much better results.
@@AcousticFields
Lol at “magical”
There are test results, please keep commenting with your wizard like knowledge.
@@masonrector4456 The test results are a joke.
@@AcousticFields
I’m sure comments like these drive your sales. Good day!
Great solution except it costs like $100,000 to do a room!
Yes, it is the most expensive adhesive I have seen to date.
@@AcousticFields I'm talking about your solution Dennis! Yes, Green Glue is a stupid rip off, but few people could afford what you are proposing as a solution with plywood, MDF, OSB, drywall, activated carbon etc.