Death By Drywall - www.AcousticFields.com
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In this video chief acoustics engineer Dennis Foley talks about the usage of drywall within our music rooms. We will talk about the pros and cons of drywall and look at the available data. Watch the video to learn more.
Thank You Dennis,
Finally a real answer about properties of drywall vs plywood
Hi Ken, This is one comparison we will use. I have others which we will cover in future videos.
According to the absorption coefficients you show, 3/8" plywood has more than double the value for 1/2 drywall @ 250Hz, a very important area for bass management. By those coefficients it makes an even stronger case for plywood by reducing the need for supplemental bass traps. I can add that a local venue which had a suspended wood floor had great low-end response (alas, Club More is no more).
W, Plywood is not a low frequency sound absorption technology. It would never reduce any low frequencies with a 1/2 - 3/4" thickness. Low-frequency management takes 8 -10" of space.
Absorption coefficients mean nothing below 125 Hz. unless the manufacturer has tested and shows the results for noise transmission.
Ahem... should I mention FIRE resistance ( since you mention DEATH and all )?
Building codes anyone?
Drywall is layered also;-)
The sound absorption properties shown in comparison of the plywood to drywall is almost identical. Per his own data, in my opinion, made more of a case for drywall, especially when considering cost. I doubt even the most keen ears could hear the variants shown in the comparison chart.
Drywall produces spatial irregularities from 800 Hz. - 2K. It is measurable and audible. We do not "skin" our rooms with it because of that middle range distortion. We use a cherry ply that has a smoother response through the middle ranges. When you have built over 250 rooms and measured each one, you get a lot of opportunity to try new material types and compare to 50 year old choices. Drywall does have some cost effective parts to play in a barrier design. There are many other material types to use in critical listening rooms that are more sonically favorable.
@@AcousticFields What are your thoughts on drop ceiling panels?
I'm enjoying your videos, and that they are pushing me to think more critically about construction decisions I make. My takeaway from this video is that plywood is minimally better at sound absorption than drywall, and that plywood possesses other properties that you prefer. I tend to agree with you, but......
Where I have lived and worked -- northeast New England -- on multi-unit buildings ( as few as 2 units per building) fire code requires 5/8 sheetrock on walls and ceilings within a unit, and double 5/8 sheetrock between units. You and I may not like this, but if the Fire marshal won't sign off on the work, I'm out of business.
Our mission statement is absolute resolution. We stay out of all other issues. You can satisfy codes without sacrificing resolution. It takes more effort and cost but with resolution as your goal, you can achieve both if you are committed to the goal.
fascinating video dennis, do you think plywood would be superior to solid wood? and also do different wood species make a difference to the rates of absorption? I've always wanted to try oak panelling for example but it's about double the cost of redwood pine or poplar, thanks for your ongoing videos and wealth of information.
Hi Ben, We like the multiple layers that plywood offers. It assists the room in expansion and contraction with different energy levels. Stay with softer woods.
A single sheet thick drywall or plasterboard is literally transparent to sound. Now feel free to experiment with double or triple stacked sheets but chances are that this may be unwieldy to manage and possibly will cause other problems. Perhaps you could intersperse the sheetrock with other materials e.g. paperboard but you'll have to weigh risk of not achieving what you want vs. cost vs. convenience and effort expended.
Once again, guessing with noise treatment types without knowing the frequency and amplitude of the noise sources is a waste of time, money, and energy.
@@AcousticFields True. I was thinking more in terms of blocking outside noise (the usual disturbances you get in a residential building from the exterior) which means a variety of frequencies and amplitudes. Without specific targets in mind, I agree, any effort is most likely doomed to fail.
I had dry wall, then covered those walls in cedar planks. Immediately tightened the room up. I also hung several large pieces drift wood up, its a great aesthetic and in my ignorant brain handles some diffusion.
Sound takes on the characteristics of the surfaces that it strikes.
Sound absorbing drywall is a special variety and is layered with soft, more ridgid, and elastic layers (up to six). Expensive but one used specifically in sound studios has a THX certification (and weighs about 200 lbs per sheet). Half inch drywall is only for a fire rating not sound.
As I posted this I remembered the Swiss use wood walls about 5 inches thick built in three or four layers to meet fire code. They even use wood pegs to fix the layers together to build panels. 3/8" plywood would not have much of a fire rating and would fail in California. You could pass with your plywood over drywall. Use few screws and an elastic glue you might have something. Still the final assembly should be tested and rated.
After living in a house with lath and plaster walls and moving to a place with drywall, I can tell you that drywall has a sound and it is not pleasant. Reminds me of digital glare, an annoying brightness.
I'm not going to be building a dedicated listening room, but if I was the interior walls would either be wood or lath and plaster. Compared to the overall cost of the room, this would be a small price to pay for such a tremendous sonic improvement.
B, Yes, yes, yes, finally someone who hears what I have been saying for years. Most people that dispel the drywall claim have never heard anything other than drywall. Yet, they claim there is no difference when they have never heard any other alternatives. Go figure that one out for me.
@@AcousticFields Don't know how anyone can not hear drywall. Kind of supports my idea that many audiophiles have impaired high frequency hearing. To my ear streaming digital audio shares similar sound issues.
so you're saying drywall is harsher sounding?
@@levigonzalez7399 Brighter is the word I'd use. Annoyingly, excessively so. I'm sure Dennis can give the technical reasons. I absolutely trust his ears.
+1. .. Excellent myth buster. .. 2 layers of 3/4" plywood layers with a top coat of 1/2 birch veneer plywood could be a winner. .. Ditch the over-hyped Green Glue process. .. Cheers, Vail, Colorado .....
P.S., Curious how 3/4" to 1" layers of OSB plywood behaves? .. Maybe as a strata base or lower-cost strata filler coupled with straight-up plywood? .. ??
M, There are no "winners". There is no one material type and density that works for all noise applications. The only generalization that can be made is that barriers below 100 Hz. are thicker than noise transmission barriers above 100 Hz. That's it. Nothing else can be said. There is a drastic difference in barrier material type, density, and construction methodology for a barrier that must stop 30 Hz. energy over a barrier that must stop 40 Hz. If you looked at both of them side by side, you would see how drastically different they are.
Great information, thank you Dennis
Glad it was helpful!
Yep the same reason why most pro audio front of house PA systems are made from 13 ply baltic birch , it's stronger ,sounds better and resist's the kind of energy levels that put into it !!
Hi, I have recently found your videos and they are very interesting. Building on your theory of plywood as superior to drywall, what are your thoughts on the old wood paneling that was popular in the 60s and 70s? I was thinking of ripping it out and replacing with double drywall and green glue, but based on your videos I'm guessing you would not recommend that. Do you know the acoustic properties of wood paneling? Would it be better to just drywall over it, or maybe use MLV and then drywall?
N, The old wood paneling is too rigid and too thin. We need compliance or flexibility that is why plywood works so well.
You are confusing many issues here. We use plywood for middle and high frequency reverberation (reflection) management and as the diaphragm for our diaphragmatic absorption process.. Ply produces a smoother middle range tone than plywood and has the required density to act as our diaphragm. It is not used for noise transmission reduction in this method. MVV is a barrier technology used for noise transmission attenuation. Remember that you must measure the frequency and amplitude of the noise before choosing any material type.
Hmmm as a commercial wall and ceiling fixer here in Australia we use a product called csr fyrchek which is a gypsum board (similar to drywall)use for when we line Cinemas multi layer on studs with acoustic insulation behind on top of concrete upright slab ad the walls works perfectly 😐
S, Drywall as a barrier material has its place depending on frequency and amplitude of noise.
What does "work perfectly" mean? As in "isolation" or as in "absorbtion"?
Plywood is good but be aware of the hidden danger in ' raw ' plywood .
Yes it's natural but due to the glue used the emission of formaldehyde can be dangerous .
( it's called phenol formaldehyde adhesive )
If you are not aware and get plywood that is classified to be free of formaldehyde emissions .
It's a well known problem in building industry and many manyfacturers doesn't directly
give correct specifications on the product .
The problem is within the glue used to bind the wood .
When left exposed it will over time emit formaldehyde until it's all out of the wood / glue .
Also many treated for fireresistance will emit other gases as well .
Raw plywood was just as insulation ment to be sealed inside the walls ect and not left bare .
There IS plywood on the market made in a different way that does NOT contain formaldehyde
but as long as the manufacturer is not demanded to provide any specs of those levels then
always expect that with no details mentioned that it will emit formaldehyde .
www.hindawi.com/journals/ijps/2018/9349721/
19january2017snapshot.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2016-07/documents/formaldehyde_final_rule_qa_regulated_revised_07.26.2016.pdf
Yes good comment. We use a green MDF with no formaldehyde to out gas especially in warmer climates.
@@AcousticFields Thanks .
Yes , im in no doub't your product is without chemicals and totally safe : )
( Just thinking I want to warn those DIY'ers
who buy plywood themself and who might not be aware of this problem )
Keep up the good work : )
What if you're starting with a room that already has drywall - can you do wood over the top and get the benefits of both?
J, Yes, glue the ply to drywall.
Yes, but you can do 2 layers of drywall to get same (or ever better) sound absorption with 25% price of plywood
Drywall is not a sound absorption material type. Using multiple layers of materials to create a barrier is part of a noise transmision process to mitigate vibrational transfer and reduce noise transmission. What is the frequency and amplitude of your noise issue?
I have learned to leave acoustic design to the appropriate professionals. I have been saving up for 3 years to do a teardown and from the ground up rebuild of my garage into a modest control room and live tracking room by the professionals at acoustic fields. 2 more years of saving money and I'll be ready to begin.
I appreciate your presentation. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
While I understand drywall isnt a good choice, isnt plywood layers of the same kind of wood orientated for directional strength and sealed together with glue to act like a single solid piece of wood?
Would the glue used act as a reflective too ?
Just wondering.
D, Plywood used on the interior wall does increase Rt-60 times. However, this increase is easily managed with proper rates and levels of absorption.
@@AcousticFields oh I dont doubt it or that you know a hell of a lot more about this than I do, but in the video you said the layers of the plywood make the difference, and It just made me curious as to how.
What about OSB, more than half the price of ply. How does this perform in comparison?
M, We do not have any experience with OSB other than with barrier technology. Based upon its composition, I would guess it would be much better than drywall but have never tested it.
For acoustic management (and some sound absorption) in Europa, we use Fermacell boards which are made with cellulose fibers and gypsum.
This is way better than standard drywall.
Any thoughts on this kind of products?
H, What is the rate and levels of absorption?
Acoustic Fields I can’t tell you the numbers for a single sheet.
Website says that you get Ra=39 dB with a wall made of one Fermacell board on both sides of a standard metal frame.
What I can say is that it works fine for voices, high frequencies and impact noises/sounds. It’s heavier and softer than regular drywall. It’s less reflective than drywall and plywood.
There is another good material for acoustic management called fibrolite.
ua-cam.com/video/ASUlUD3fxZ4/v-deo.html
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The boards are made of wood fibers and cement. It has an open structure for sound, and it is a more absorbing and slightly diffusive material. Its acoustics depend on the thickness of the fibers, the thickness of the plate, and the quality of manufacture. One of the russian manufacturers gives this absorption characteristics for their 15mm board of 1mm fibers with a dencity of 450kg/m3 when to put it on 100mm from hard surface (blue graph on the picture; green is the board with 100mm acoustic wool with a density of 50 kg/m3):
static.wixstatic.com/media/8320c3_3e31de2eda67424397f3ceaad537daa0~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_880,h_502,al_c,q_85/8320c3_3e31de2eda67424397f3ceaad537daa0~mv2.webp
Blue - 15mm board 2mm fibers 450 kg/m3 on 100mm from hard surface; green - 25mm board 2mm fibers 570 kg/m3 + 100mm acoustic wool with a density of 50 kg/m3:
static.wixstatic.com/media/8320c3_bd1f663f991f45398f8fdc7cebd2decc~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_870,h_493,al_c,q_85/8320c3_bd1f663f991f45398f8fdc7cebd2decc~mv2.webp
It's fireproof:
ua-cam.com/video/fkqZ9diaGDc/v-deo.html
Fire test against plywood:
ua-cam.com/video/4VDoj4pmGnI/v-deo.html
What do you think about that?
I built a studio with Fermacell 10 years ago. A room within a room with Fermacell screwed on resilient channels held on a regular metal framing. The framing was isolated by brown fermacell LM stripes on the floor and ceiling. The dampening was excellent and/but the studio was dead sounding, if this is what you are looking for, go for it. Your neighbours will love you :) Fermacell is 2x to 3x the weight of drywall, it's all about decoupling the structure and mass.
What about speciality materials such as Soundchek and Firechek?
This is specifically made for noise attenuation.
Of course I don’t have any experience with sound attenuation.
What are the frequency and amplitudes of your noise issues.
Hi, if room size isnt a factor for me, would I get the same benefits by using multiple layers of drywall? Greetings.
F, Why would you use multiple layers of drywall ? What is the function of this tactic ?
Acoustic Fields , I thought the effect would add up, but maybe I'm thinking of soundproffing (transmission) not absorption.
F, Drywall is a barrier technology. It is mainly for frequencies above 125 Hz. Is that where your noise issues are at?
F, No, increasing density just means that you reduce more energy at that frequency range for the material type used.
Please help me understand how plywood a "natural" material when its layers are bonded with synthetic glue and traditionally painted with lacquer or acrylic paint / stain? Also, how reasonable is it for an average consumer (not professional) to rip out all drywall and replace with plywood which, btw has a terrible fire rating vs. drywall? Finally, does your data account for bare drywall vs. bare plywood or does it assume the surfaces are painted? If painted both will be more reflective further decreasing any delta which is already quite negligible.
Code for the fire rating is just a huge factor. A lot of people consider using chipboard for garages and this is an issue so one can search that subject for more information.
Hi S, There is no average consumer. Everyone that we work with has different size/volume/usage for their room that must be addressed on an individual basis. The surface area is what you must focus upon. The surface area of drywall comes at a cost to middle and high frequencies. Plywood does not exhibit this 800 - 2,000 Hz. issue. A multiple layered material is good at reducing vibrations from certain energy ranges. There is no need to "rip out" anything. Simply cover existing drywall with a damping layer of limp mass material and secure the ply. Do not paint or use stain. Seal the ply with a clear coat sealer to protect against moisture and dirt. Fire codes are always an issue. All of this said, ply will increase your Rt-60 times if left untreated. You must specify the correct balance between absorption and diffusion for all room surfaces when using ply but the end result is well worth the cost in appearance and performance.
@@AcousticFields hi can i ask for more info about the limp layer as described and how this works
Do you have videos that show testing for these materials? I don't always believe what I read/hear :P so I'd like to know your numbers are on point.
Seriously tho, it would be helpful for you to refute these other claims. If you have a video that addresses that, it would be good to link it.
We have built over 230 rooms. When you build that many rooms, you begin to hear patterns in the sound quality presentation based on how the rooms were constructed. Its a process similar to what speaker manufacturers go through. The process is called voicing. You listen over and over to the same source and different sources and you begin to discover sonic patterns. Every material used within a room has an impact on the sound quality. Drywall has its own sound. Wood has its own sound. When you voice the two material types, wood comes out the winner with smoother middle range response.
@@AcousticFields I don't want to appear rude, but you're both advocating skepticism for others claims and simultaneously saying "trust me I've done this a lot".
Make a video where you go through this voicing process using test equipment to demonstrate your findings. Otherwise it's just hearsay and I have to trust your word against others claims.
I have the same issue with green glue--id love for someone to build some test prototype room and test it with and without to provide evidence that it doesn't anything. I just feel for you to refute it and advocate for other methods (plywood vs gypsum) requires the same level of testing.
Just my 2 cents. Appreciate the content.
I like your talks, well explained, to the point, but so many acoustic people say things and don't have any way of measuring, or ignore measuring the diffs...…….How do you know that one could hear a difference between an absorption coefficient of .05 and .17, or any other pair shown? Has anyone sat a dozen listeners in a room or in two rooms separated by one king of wall vs the other, and asked them if they could hear any more or less? Liked the music more or less? On first glance, .17 is more than 3X larger than .05, which seems significant, but 3X a gnat's butt is still not much. How about providing a graph of the room's freq/ responses? Or some kind of sound meter behind a wall composed of each? Who's going to spring for significant money to treat a room with plywood unless they have some kind of demonstration between the real, if any, difference between the two materials.
N, It is not difficult. Listen to rooms that do not have drywall. You will hear many differences.
As far as absorption, plywood seems to be better sound absorption. Would this mean plywood would also be better at sound sound blocking than drywall?
What are the frequency and amplitude of your noise transmission issues?
How does pressed wood board differ from plywood? (Oriented strand board)
Also, to make it look nicer, how would applying a thin coat of plaster that would be sanded down (to make it look smooth and printable) affect it?
T, Plastered rooms have good tonal balance for middle and high frequencies. We use plywood to achieve the same balance. We find cherry ply works best.
What material do you recommend for attics? I have feathers or something loose.
What is your sonic goal? You can not just look at one surface area. You must look at the whole room acoustic.
Does this same opinion go for something like quiet rock which has a 1 3/8" layered version that's about 220lbs per sheet? I get that it's still gypsum, I'm just referring to the acoustical performance.
What are the frequency and amplitudes of your noise issues? You must match the material density and the construction methodology to the noise issue. Noise above 125 hz. has different material and construction requirements than noise above 125 Hz.
@@AcousticFields in the process of testing it. I've got a 3 sided office cubby in my apartment. One side shares a wall with my roommate. The only goal there is that neither of us can hear the other when we're working. He produces music, and I do voice work. The other two sides are windows that face the parking lot of the adjacent building and then Hollywood Blvd is past that. The ultimate goal for those two sides is simply to muffle the traffic sounds so my mic doesn't pick them up. I don't care if I can still hear it a bit as I'm always wearing headphones. Just want to block enough so that if I'm recording voiceover I don't have to do multiple takes. Biggest difficulty there has been waiting around to measure a horn and a car alarm going off to get an idea of what would be required construction wise.
Would you ever cover drywall with plywood on top,
Yes
What if I want to soundproof my garage, should I use drywall? Because I think drywall reflects the sound and plywood absorbs the sound, am I correct?
You are confusing noise transmission with sound absorption. Noise transmission requires a barrier technology. Reflections require a sound absorption technology. We do not use drywall in any of our projects as a barrier in some cases but never for inside a critical listening room.
@@AcousticFields I am just getting confused by all the soundproofing opinions found on the internet. I just want to soundproof my garage for drums. Any tips?
this is the rulebook for acoustics
I only have enough money to use 5mm (.2" actual thickness) poplar Plywood on my 10' walls. would this make any difference at all vs the double sheetrock that's currently there?
It would depend on your usage. If voice and music are involved drywall produces what we call drywall sound. It is a dull and lifeless. We use cherry plywood on all of our room designs.
@@AcousticFields My usage is music playback and live /recording room
is there a difference if you use the same thickness
S, No, stay away from all of this nonsense.
Never heard that, only that drywall has good sound blocking for price. I'd love to actually see your wall builds since only advantage playwood has according to you in they it's "natural." Also I don't know if any prywood than Baltic birch with that many plies and that's more like 12 times price. Please give example of your amazing 95 stc assembly
Drywall is one of many barrier material types. Every material type is noise frequency and amplitude dependent. We do not use drywall as an interior finish because of its negative impact on middle frequencies.
Nobody is using 1 layer of drywall but 2 layers of drywall with some sound absorbing kit in between. That will be better than the 3/8 plywood and still 3x cheaper.
You are right! This guy compares absorbtion of a gypsum board, not a drywall.
@@DmitryMyadzelets Funny that every person talks about drywall as great in the beginning but then later ends up being upset at the way their recordings sound.
I teach my kids that when you here "everyone", it's a lie mostly
@@DmitryMyadzelets Almost everyone then? Look around the internet and you will find that >99% of people are saying the same exact thing about two sheets of 5/8" gypsum with green glue in between. But yet most people have crap sounding rooms when you hear the recording.
@MP Bootcamp
Well, I've found one research paper which does confirm your statement: "Influence of standard gypsum board cladding on room acoustic parameters"
what about 3 or 4 layers of drywall? 🤔
What are the frequency and amplitude of your noise transmission issues? Every material type is frequency and amplitude dependent.
Thought so, most accurate control room I've worked in has no dywall. How would you attach veneer would you decouple from wall withouti visible screws?
J, Yes, it is the same in USA. The quality studios known for great product do not use drywall.You can glue plywood sheets or cover the screwed joints with molding.
Great vid- not the typical info out there and I love that!
Hi Jon, There are a lot of things people have accepted as "the way to do things". This belief system usually comes about over time and has cost as a benefit. We have never followed that. We actually build and test both empirically with measurements and subjectively with our listening experience of over 40 years in many different environments. It is and will always be for us what sounds the best.
great video, can you apply plywood on a drywall wall? i dont and cant rip the already set wall, i just want to apply it over
Noise doesn't care what you want to do. You must use material types, construction methodologies, and densities that correspond to the frequency and amplitude of your noise issues.
@@AcousticFields thank you for your responses
True,, drywall does not have better *sound absorbtion*,, but drywall does have better *sound isolation*.
Drywall is a barrier material type of which there are many. It has nothing to do with sound absorption.
According to the huff and puff rule better surround yourself with rocks than wood
that plywood is 800 kg/m3?
X, Density is one factor to consider. It is the layering of materials or ply's in plywood that reduces vibration.
What about MDF?
Ho O, MDF is a good choice. Stay with the 3/4" or 1" thickness. If you can not get the 1" , you can layer 2 - 1/2" pieces together using a limp mass damping material.
THANK YOU!
I like your videos bud, but engineered plywood is hardly “natural” in comparison to drywall (which as you state is just crushed rock, as opposed to shredded wood. Not sure what that is supposed to imply.) plywood is chocked full of glue and other bullshit so it can press and hold together. That glue certainly isn’t found in the wild. I’m with you on the “multiple layers absorbing sound” and shit like that. But I don’t think putting plywood on a pedestal for being natural and throwing drywall in the pit for being “crushed rock” (last I checked, rock is natural and gets crushed in nature sometimes) is the way to go.
Build a room with drywall. Spend 30 days listening to the room sound. Now, cover the drywall with cherry plywood. Spend 30 days listening to room sound. You will hear the difference immediately. You will have a more natural mid range tonal quality with higher Rt-30 times which can easily be managed with proper rates and levels of absorption.
Acoustic Fields I am only arguing your claim that plywood is natural and drywall is not. I already agreed with you on the characteristics of the materials. I just think misleading or blatantly false statements shouldn’t be made to reinforce a point.
@@AGPMandavel You are not seeing the forest for the trees. The goal is not in the labeling of material types, it is in the performance of the room.
How bout 5/8th drywall or doubling up on drywall I stead of removing old drywall? Does that compare?
A, Drywall regardless of thickness has a negative impact on middle range frequencies
Fire rating is a consideration.
A consideration only in the name of sound quality.
1:54 words of wisdom
Death by drywall?
The title makes it sound like it's killing you or something.
L, Its killing your middle range frequencies. Walk into a room with no drywall and you will hear this occurrence.
There was that things a few years back with imported drywall that contained formaldehyde. Lots of health issues.
It has no fire resistance
I want to understand your comment. Are you saying that drywall has no fire rating?
Plywood, very natural, yes yes.
S, It will look and sound better but it will increase reverberation (reflection) times. We will need to add more middle and high frequency absorption technology.
Why is drywall even a thing in America? It's a first world country. Even poor countries have concrete walls in urban areas. Even in apartments.
L, In a capitalistic society everything is about cost. A 4' x 8' sheet of drywall cost around 10 USD
In third world countries, drywall is more expensive than bricks, that's why, also people don't trust it. Drywall is getting bigger with time but very slowly...
Not suitable in the tropics, due to wood ants etc
The tropics represent 1% of our customer base.
drywall is cheap mass for isolation
D, Yes and no. It depends on the frequency and amplitude of the noise you are trying to reduce the transmission of.
"Death by Drywall"???
WTF??
The title of the video suggests an ominous danger to the use of drywall, when in fact there wasn't a single mention of any danger of using drywall at all in the video.
Downvoted due to misleading title. This is the last video I'll watch on this channel.
You are missing the point. Drywall has a negative impact on middle range frequencies.
I did not subscribe please remove me.
😅😅😅