The Problems with BOYFRIENDS + Why People are SO ANGRY. || SPEEDPAINT + COMMENTARY
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- Опубліковано 15 жов 2024
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There are 4 lesbians in this comic wich are bluntly shown to be the genderswap of the main 4 - one is the jock's sister for example
The fact that no one mentions the four Lesbians has always bothered me.
I think i saw a screenshot of the refrainbow saying the nerds didnt agree in the pro/anti shipping front, not 100% sure though
yeah, and to me at least they feel very toned down compared to the boys, for example the nerd, girl nerd just reads to me as a cute bookworm who reads too much fanfiction, like, her traits are exaggerated but it feels like she could have depth you know? While guy nerd feels like a shota to me, like, he’s a child in everything but age. Idk that’s just how I felt about it, just to be clear I didn’t read the whole thing, it’s been more than 6 months since I’ve last read it so I could be remembering it wrong, and also that’s just my perspective as a wlw
@@ayl9261 I get you. I honestly love Nerd. I have read the whole thing as well. I honestly feel like Boyfriends just not some people's preference for story. But it's popular. I'm just happy to see cute guys not being miserable because they are gay. Slice of life comics are just like this.
@@semi_enigma less annoying version of prep tbh
as a gay guy, regarding the comic itself I had put the whole thing under "suspension of disbelief", considering literally every aspect of it seems overblown. I don't read that kind of comic myself, but I definitely see how people would just want something to escape reality into. I didn't really find the comic offensive, but regarding the artist's actions though..... yikes
I was gonna say, it seems like the comics really is just meant to be all happy and nice and not dwell on negative aspects of lgbt too much
I think it's mostly supposed to be a fun play on school sitcomish tropes but screwed up
I found it somewhat weird as a lesbian
I used to like this comic because it was colorful and unrealistic and fun, but I came back to it after a while and it seemed really sexualized and pretty weird. Maybe it’s because I heard about the creator, or maybe the WEBTOON original is worse than the canvas. Or I’ve just matured idk
Edgy 2006 I support you cause I'm les and I know plus why are the comics sounds cringey even tho there not cringey
15:20 I've seen quite a few ppl actually say "I HATE the boyfriends they're all sucky tropes! But the Girlfriends are cute uwu queens I love them" like???? They're literally just genderbends of the boys. They are all the same tropes, just Sapphic. Yet they somehow they aren't getting the same fetishization and unrealism shit getting thrown at them??? Make it make sense???
It's cause it's trendy to hate on men in the media right now. :/
Wait...there a genderbend of that story?
Huh who would've known I bet it the same as boyfriend.
@@peonyflowerking it's not a different story, there's just a cast of different characters in boyfriends that's basically them but genderbent
This all comes from lesbian representation in media. Think about it, how many times in a show have you seen two gay guys that aren’t just heavily implied friends with benefits? We see lesbians in media all the time that aren’t just the one stereotype.
@@Goldie22 ooooh I see then
I get not liking happy-go-lucky escapism soft uwu stuff, but there ARE couples like that! I lived with a queer couple like that! They never fought in a yelling or damatic, they were super gentle and communicative with eachother. They would go out of their way to support one another and quite literally "Oh its OK bb let me make you some tea and get you a blanket and we can watch a show and cuddle." Stuff like that is how they made eachither feel seen, understood, and loved.
Being soft and caring and extremely anti-drama isn't... bad lol. It isn't even necessarily boring. There can be drama that isn't relationship based. People can have a wholesome soft relationship AND tackle life drama.
Other stuff, especially about the author, I get being mad about, but this? Literally just people being soft and sweet to eachother? Very clearly in a way that is mutual and appreciated? Way to say you don't get healthy, supportive relationships lol.
I'm a very soft and anti-drama person and would probably not be out of place in the Boyfriends universe tbh. I'm just a single pringle lmao
I’m relationship with my significant other is exactly like that, so I really don’t get how is a gay couple being “soft uwu peace and love and rainbows” not the same as a straight couple doing the same on Shoujo manga / anime. Like, oh, okay, I get you’re just tired of the same stupid tropes, but then just go support an artist that actually does something different and help them gain popularity instead. Most artists trying to get a living will follow whatever is the most popular trend, so if you want something different, HELP THE ONES THAT DO GAIN A REPUTATION AND SHOW THERE IS A PUBLIC FOR THAT MARKET
My relationship is like that xd
Idk why people think relationships can't be 24/7 cute and supportive. Of course we fight sometimes, but that happens in all kinds of relationships because it's normal. Anyway, bfs is just a webtoon about gay people being cute and sweet, it doesn't need to show fights and bad moments, it's a comfort webtoon for people who just want to watch something cute.
Prep is like this with Goth, from what I seen, and I'm still pissed off that he acts so dumb and think they aren't dating-
@@T_E_G I'm pretty sure they have a chat abt it and prep is a lot more attentive after that. I don't remember why he was so oblivious, I thiiiiiink it was an "I didn't wanna assume and end up making you unconfortable" situation but that's going off my crappy memory. I know they had a talk and got on the same page tho.
I think a big problem is that people can't simply not like things anymore. They have to find a moral failing of the property so that they can feel justified in their dislike and can feel morally superior to those that do.
Say it louder for the people in the back
This comment needs more likes
this exactly
For all the things that the artist has done, most of it is personal preference, and the attacks on the person is all because ppl don't understand from the mindset of someone living in indonesia with how they take in information, how they interact as an lgbt person, whats acceptable in their circle etc. Yet they are harrassed for not know whats acceptable in western circle. I think its just dumb.
I dont think the constant uwuification of gay men is morally uplifting bro lmao
I do not know why people expect nuanced representation in a comic that has the characters literally named after the stereotypes they portray. Now, if the comic puts out any harmful messages criticism is necessary but I have seen many people disappointed in the lack of nuance this relationship has and I just do not know why people had that expectation in the first place.
This comic is just some stupid joke and everyone should be getting wooshed for taking it too seriously :/
Yeah it's honestly not like that ONE infamous hentai that pretty much put gay men acceptance down the drain.
@@ExtremeWreck which would be...?
@@Vickynger Boku no Pico
For me, it's not infantilizing, at least not inherently. The artist is a trans gay man from a homophobic and transphobic country, and I live in a homophobic and transphobic area of my country. It is meant as an escape, not an dissertation about gay relationships. If they or I wrote an 'realistic' story, the story would be a closeted person at best, or homophobia hurled at them frequently. Too many people think 'realism' would just be relationship issues, not the abuse that people in homophobic areas still have to face. They forget that there are still people who NEED an escapist story to escape from their reality, because their reality still hates them.
A bit mean to teens, but so many of them seem to be in places where full-force homophobia isn't present. If they were, a rom-com that is done in an escapist way wouldn't be the bigger focus than the homophobia keeping them unsafe.
Honestly I get where your coming from but an escapism story doesn't have to / in this case shouldn't be actively harmful or appealing to Fujoshis
@@basilbat273 if it's for his own enjoyment, then I don't think it matters. If people are taking this info and saying it's totally realistic representation of gay people, then that's their fault, not the author's.
@@basilbat273 From what I've read(and I've read it before getting it's current spot on Webtoons) it isn't really harmful unless you look to make things harmful for the most part. And ultimately a group of people interested in consuming mlm media will always find it. If they like it more than some of the OTHER, actually problematic stories made by assumedly cis straight women I think that is a small win.
Also doujinshi is a catch-all term for self-published works. I think you meant Fujoshi, if not you sincerely don't understand the term and need to take a step back and learn real quick.
@@maskedpanda8502 Apologies for the mistake I suppose your right it's still kinda gross to me how it treats us but your for the most part correct
Um no, the author is just a woman pretending to be trans :)
i do not trust the people saying it's forced representation, they're just outing themselves as believing that gay people need to constantly justify their existence and should be reduced to secondary characters
i hate when the term "forced representation" is thrown around when any minority character is present in a piece of media. it almost always manages to be oppresive (-ist or -phobic) in some way
I do wanna adress something that came out from hate that is fucking stupid. It's about Goth and that he's Ace and he has sex with his boyfriends. Yes, people are complaining about it.......
So I'll just say what's important
ASEXUALITY =/= SEX REPLUSION!! I'm in the ace spectrum, I have high libido and I fluctuate between sex positive and sex replused, so fucking drives me insane when someone actually made this 'criticism' about Goth.
People think that ace people don't have libido, it's literally so stupid. All of us are humans, humans and other animals feel the need to have s*x. Whether you're attracted to people or not...
never knew that info in my life, thanks for the info!
@@lemint same
People love to be ignorant about the ace community, I stg. There's a reason people say they're "aspec" and it's because asexuality is a spectrum.
I didn't understand at first because I didn't see the / in the =/= but yea, ur completely right
It’s the ‘stereotype’ argument that gets me, I always like tropes of bully/nerd wether it’s gay or straight as a wlw, then you have Thomas sanders who does characters that are goth [virgil] nerd [logan] prep [patton] and so on, creatives take archetypes like the four humours like leader types, jokers etc and like to mess with dynamics. The worst part is that protaganists that are white/cis can be whatever archetype or be a jerk or lovable and no one cares but lgbt HAS to be on a pedestal. Has to be ‘good’ rep implying that lgbt can’t be shown as anything other than ‘perfect’ we’re just people, messy humans a story is a story just because it has lgbt elements doesn’t inmedietly make it propoganda.
There are some good videos about how ‘good’ representation is BORING and I would die on that hill tbh
I've seen too much media that overprides itself on how "diverse" it is when the only actually intresting characters are the straight/white/male (maybe not all three but whoever is not there to tick off a box) because they are allowed to have flaws and personal problems without the writter making sure they are competely perfect so no one gets offended
The problem with "representation" is when a character is "representing" a group, any flaws are no longer a character flaw, it's a flaw of the group they are representing, if your Muslim character is kinda a slob, that isn't a flaw for said character, it's a flaw for Muslim people stating they are all slobs, etc. Which is a terrible mindset to put yourself in while writting. I've had both good and bad diverse characters and the good ones are ones I made because I wanted too and not because I felt required too
Honestly that makes me think! Thomas Sanders is a gay man! But he doesn't get backlash in the way the boyfriend's comics does, I wonder why.
@@yukiandkanamekuran He’s a real person though.
@@shinysweety9822 Have you seen how fucking stupid twitter is though?
The amount of times I’ve seen people being really transphobic/homophobic to the creator is really disgusting. They keep misgendering him and whenever you corrected them by saying that Ray is a guy, they still keep calling him a girl or say that the comic is written by a straight girl. Ray may have done some questionable things but that does not give you a excuse to be transphobic/homophobic to him
Agree with you there. We definitely shouldn't do that. Unfortunately I, being a gay man, ended up doing that one time due to me deciding to lash the anger I had over that ONE actually legitimately harmful pile of crap that shall not be named because even saying it is gonna put me into an unstoppable rage & further depression onto Boyfriends. I know that I don't want to do that again & just overall avoid that slimy harmful show for good because that show... it just brought me back horrid memories of my mom abusing me which Boyfriends THANKFULLY hasn't done & will never do because the author knows better than to do what THAT show has done to my mental health.
The creator calls trans woman “femboys” and hates Jews
@@Vixieaudios Hates Jews? Oh no... don't tell me he's a fan of Tomorrow's Pioneers. Yeah calling trans woman "femboys" is already terrible enough, but that jew one just made me think of Tomorrow's Pioneers in that moment because Nick Crowley did a video on it a month ago.
EDIT: Phew, it's just him jabbing at the Indonesian government. Well, at least Ray(Refrainbow) has common sense & isn't there to make people legitimately feel miserable about themselves... unlike THAT OTHER RAY.
@@Vixieaudios That still doesn’t mean that you get to be transphobic/homophobic to the creator which is why I said that the creator has done questionable things but that doesn’t give you an excuse to be transphobic/homophobic to him just because he has done awful things
i didn’t know the writer was trans, every time i’ve seen ppl slandering it they say it was written by a straight girl. tbh saying it’s written by a straight girl makes it seem more fetishized
Personally as a gay guy this whole situation disgusts me. Not because I read the comic as 'stereotyping', but the fact that this comic was created by a gay man and people are criticizing the comic for being 'fetish work'. The whole hate mob really shows to me that not even queer creators are safe from creating works that related to ourselves. The people complaining about this comic because of the 'stereotyping' is implying that if you are gay and act in/live in a way that seems stereotyping and you write about it, you are harming gay people. Which is? Who are you to judge how the hell someone lives?
Going to be honest, I read Boyfriends for the hell of it but had to stop due to the drama being a constant reminder that content creators can get lambasted for writing stories with themselves being the target demographic. This may sound stupid but this drama is the only thing that causes me panic attacks because of the really fucking terrible implications the hate towards the creator have, and then people who you actively look up to/think are good hearted ccs are also bashing this person. Yeah. The creator has done bad shit. That I won't deny. But if you've seen the people 'criticizing' , you'll notice how close it is to straight up playground bullying. From how I see it, a mob of people is treating this creator like he is worse than MAPS for writing a GAY COMIC pulling from his own experiences as a GAY MAN. Holy shit.
THANK YOU
Idc if this comment was made a year ago, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
As a bisexual dude who read the comics WAY before I saw any of the ads, I actually really loved them and found them to be a source of tremendous comfort! It’s weird how controversial the comic is outside of the actual art itself!
because most of these edgelords acc havent read the comic properly and are just hating it for the trend, its their poor attempt at being quirky, their criticism is the same old, "it hurts actual gay men!" or "it was written by a woman, real gay men wouldnt do this!" most of it is just really transphobic and misogynistic, like why gender someone's writing? feminine view on stories is not "written by women" men should be allowed to express femininity in what they write in, so it sucks ppl arent destroying a binary
@@Wishtelle Mm, I can relate to that sentiment. I don't think you're a bad person for liking a cute comic.
@@Wishtelle jut a little of a personal take on that, if your friends make you field ashamed of what you like you should either bring it up with them and put some boundries or look for better friends :/ you're supposed to be able to feel open an safe with actual friends, imo, but again, just my two cents
@@Wishtelle good to hear that! i also agree a lot with camila over there. i used to get stares and tease when talking bout my interest with my old friends even though its only simple stuff like kpop, anime, manga, fanfic, etc. but now that i've graduated i actually just kept in touch with those that actually appreciates me, they don't mind my random fangirl moments and even often go along with me cuz they also like some of the stuff. i feel like if u keep ur interest hidden then the people who'll actually appreciate u as u are or even have the same interest as u won't be able to see u, so just keep it open! i even plan to use my interests as conversation starter in order to get the right friends right off the bat lol hope u'll found the friends who'll actually appreciate u soon! ^^
@@Wishtelle Same, I kept seeing everyone bashing and hating on the comic, and I originally read it like 2 years ago before the controversy started 😅 I stopped reading it awhile ago, but it’s hard to get back into it when the whole internet is flaming the poor comic. It’s become the new Guardian Spice, if an LGBT piece of media fails to please everyone, then it will be flamed and bashed until the creator quits or deletes their account…
As a gay guy, i really like the boyfriends webtoon, and it helped me a lot in the process of accepting myself and my sexuality, reading a story where guys fell in love without drama and conflict that were allowed to just exist, made me be with way more peace about this side of my identity, i understand why people dislike it, but i don't think it's fair to hate everyone that likes the comic, i stopped showing support publicly when people started sending me death threats, over a silly romance comic!! People are allowed to dislike it, but i just want to like this thing without being shamed for it
Exactly! There’s so many straight webcomics/shows that are just like Boyfriends but no one bats an eye.
@@OpossumOnTheMoon what would you say the examples of straight comics being like that are.
@@evelynn1173 in terms of silly romance, on tapas there’s LifeHappens (a slice of life about the author and focuses a lot recently on her growing family and romance with her husband), any comic by Meriweather (but primarily the succumbs one and Stalker x Stalker), on Webtoons there’s My Giant Nerd Boyfriend, and with manga there’s Place to Place, ojojojo, Love is War, Miss Ueno, or even Ouran High School Host Club (though that can be debated). I haven’t read many web comics recently so most examples of dumb fun romance media is manga I’ve read.
I’m so sorry you received death threats! I have never read the comic but I saw one ad for it that was… off putting. But it’s never ok to send someone death threats, unless they’re like a pedo or a murderer. Any other reason is unacceptable. You just liking a “problematic” gay comic is no reason. People like to pick apart media and try to find dirt on it to make themselves feel morally better than others. It’s getting very repetitive. A lot of creators have done some ducked up shit but so do we. We all have done/said some fucked up shit we regret. So maybe that 10 year old dirt you found or recent mistake some person made doesn’t define that person.
@@OpossumOnTheMoon Kind of shows that homophobia is still everywhere you go.
Thank you so much for talking about this. As someone who first met and adored the comic back when it was on Canvas and didn't reach so much controversy, I have a slight sentimentality to the comic, even if its no longer for the story itself. It was one of the comics that inspired me to continue on to do comics myself. Though I don't mind the dislike for it- I can understand why- there was a period of time where my feed was filled with so much misplaced hate on the comic, despite my numerous attempts to remove myself from that area. The worst part for me I suppose was the spread of misinformation and both intentional/unintentional transphobia. There were numerous times where I've seen people misgender the author and hate so viciously on the four main characters for the littlest things, (though i will admit the voiceovers in the ads are atrocious). As an Asian who struggles with imposter syndrome when it comes to polyamory, asexuality and trans masculinity, a lot of the comments people said made it hard for me to say anything, especially those that tried to make strict definitions of those labels and hated on the comic for not abiding to them.
I dunno, I haven't been a dedicated reader for a very long time, nor do I entirely support the creator, I'm just tired. mostly of twitter. especially twitter.
also f**k webtoon ads we all hate webtoon ads
on other notes may i say you are my favorite art commentary creator out there, thank you for your work!
I wouldn’t trust anybody that has/likes Twitter honestly. Twitter is just so toxic and unnecessary. It’s just for dumb people who wanna argue and critique every little thing a person says/does. People are so so dramatic and are so overreacting about this. It’s literally just a dumb Webtoon. When I started reading(I never finished it yet) i enjoyed it. It doesn’t matter your opinion on it don’t send death threats to people, jeez. I swear some people have more Instinct than brain.
I actually read the whole comic and I personally see no problem with it it's just a typical love trope 😅 I will always love the comic
@@bakugoukatsukitheonlyrealo383 ikr
Yeah, and everyone was getting mad because Goth is ace but has sex. Like, if they're such experts, how do they not know that Asexual is an umbrella term for people who have a complicated relationship with sex.
I feel sex repulsed sometimes, and other times, my libido is through the roof. It's saddening.
And it helped me with my sexuality and gender, as well as let me know that it's okay to be asexual in my own personal way.
I wish people would just stop throwing around the word fetishization. You made an amazing point that if the tables were turned and it was a straight relationship no one would have an issue. I think us having representation in all types of media is amazing! Also being stereotypical and stereotyping are two completely different things. Also the Creator is gay, trans, and Asian. So literally every argument I've seen goes out the window.
Pretty much my problem entirely. This whole petty drama started, once again, because people in a community unaffected by an unproblematic piece of media (except for vapid and shallow personal reasons) attach words they don't know how to properly define in a feeble attempt to disguise their unjustified hatred as them "trying to start a discussion". If they really cared so much about "fellow minorities", they'd have taken two seconds to do their due diligence and think about their own issues from a less emotional and more educated perspective. But apparently being a part of an oppressed community gives you the right to bully someone for making something you don't like (THAT SAID, the creator has still done terrible shit that should be called out, but that's not reflected in the comic, so that's a completely different issue).
Ok but the creator still said the n word idc
@@paigemosher8697 They aren't actually LGBT+ people. They're just homophobes in disguise. I can tell through all the lies.
And he apologised for saying that word. He recognised it and apologised for it even though it was many years ago, and he never ever did that again, no one is defending his use of it. But Some of you need to know that we all live in different countries where we may not know what is racist and may just imitate it without proper knowledge, esp in non English non American countries. Please keep this in mind before you all start saying everyone is supposed to know this.
So true, like don't ask for representation when you only want certain types of gay people to be represented, like they claim homophobia, but that in itself is homophobic. There really is no winning; it's either not enough or too much.
something to add about the characters being based on tropes: they have traits that go against their trope. felix isn't actually seen as a cool bad boy, adrian is really cheeky and bold after he gets to know someone, vincent is horrible at being emotionally vulnerable (as far as i'm aware in the "token gay best friend" trope, the character is used as an accessory to the main love interest and gives a lot of relationship advice), and kevin is the most emotionally intelligent out of the 4.
thank you for giving a nuanced take on this! whenever i say i actually like the comic i keep getting dogpiled. i'm at the point where i'm blocking anyone who doesn't respectfully disagree.
*exactly! i don't see anything wrong with liking the comic, i used to like it but i dont read it anymore. It's similar to the J.K. Rowling thing I think, where you can like the art yet not the artist.*
I can't remember their names. I'm too used to using their labels
@@raineecho4005 felix = goth, vincent = prep, adrian = nerd, and kevin = jock
@@haunted7937 cool. Thanks
@@raineecho4005 you’re welcome :>
I haven't read the full comic but there are female characters that are basically genderbends of the Boyfriends called the Girlfriends and people pull the hypocrit card by saying the comic is good only because they are in a lesbian poly relationship
Honestly I have no opinion the lesbian poly relationship, it just feels like genderbends.
@@cupio-stardust bc they are
Lesbians have ALWAYS been more accepting than us gay men ever will.
@@ExtremeWreck ?
As a gay Jew, I'm pretty much on Refrainbow's side for all of this. The "antiemitism satire" was sloppy and poorly executed, but I'm not gonna hold a grudge against a random minor with no followers on how well they satirize antisemitism in a semi-public 1-on-1 conversation with a friend. And I'm especially not gonna hold that grudge for 6 years just because they became a micro-celebrity. They addressed it, cleared it up, and if anything I'm relieved that they thought antisemitism was stupid even when they probably didn't know any Jews.
As for the comic itself - I think it's fine. In terms of representation I think it's largely a positive, because it portrays a sexually active polyamorous relationship in a wholesome manner that's standard for the genre. The characters are mostly flat but it's not the kind of story that warrants much character development, and while it's nothing incredible I think the story is a nice read when it updates. I don't understand how people can act like the characters are gay stereotypes - these are archetypes I rarely see get to be gay at all. To use your Mean Girls analogy; Prep is a Plastic, while Goth is a Janis Ian. Pre-existing tropes that straight people have all the time in popular media. But the gay guy in Mean Girls, Damian Leigh, isn't a prep like the plastics or a goth like Janis. He's not a nerd or a jock. He's a gay guy - that's his stereotype. He isn't defined by money and status, nor by attitude and aptitude. He's defined by his orientation; obsessed with the glitz and glam of Hollywood, talking about fashion, and constantly using his identity as the butt of a joke. The idea that someone can look at the characters in Boyfriends and see Damien Leigh or Kurt Hummel is infuriating, because they're acting like the homophobic part of those characters was wearing ascots, not that their entire identity revolved around being a sassy, self-deprecating jester.
Plz go outside freAk ty stop supporting a racist Weirdo that mama cp
Thank you!, As a former gay man (now identifying as non-binary and bisexual) as a writer who writes about queer stories, boyfriends is a very different genre from realism. It's a nice comic, it's something I read for the hell of it. And I like to separate the work and the creator for this very reason
It’s just. Cute fluff comic
Yup. Also great representation of the asexual community when it comes to goth. Really helped me with coming to terms with being Demi.
I’m a polyamorous gay guy, and honestly, after reading the comic, the only criticism I have is it being overly saccharine and cutesy, but considering that the artist comes from a pretty homo/transphobic country, it’s perfectly understandable that they would enjoy telling a feel-good story about a supportive relationship without getting too serious. And even if their background was different, comics like that don’t need to be grounded anyway, as long is they don’t pose as such. This doesn’t mean the work infantilizing, just that it’s meant to be sweet, cute and escapist. At times, the wholesomeness felt too forced and on the nose, and it’s kind of hard to suspend your disbelief sometimes, but things like that are pretty common when people try to intentionally create something cute and fluffy, and I understand the creator’s desire to make the situations feel safe and comforting. The comic is a little annoying (the way most uwu kawaii things are), but I found many things relatable to my own identity and relationships, and the characters are definitely not harmfully stereotypical, just portrayed in a comedic way. Overall, I didn’t love the comic, but I genuinely don’t understand the hate that it gets.
But the ads are just ridiculous. If I was the creator, I would be horrified.
I'm queer and trans, and I understand where other gay masc ppl are coming from. In my opinion, I think the over-popularization is the stem of the problem, as that is what attracted fujoshis and their "uwu" comments on it. I just take it as a mid-tier, squishy, easy-read romance that I don't actively seek but can find myself melting into the aesthetic- I can relate to some traits. I like the fantasy of seeing myself as a sweet, androgynous man who likes being cuddly with my partner, however detached from reality that is.
But I do agree that the author does need to reflect on their actions and perhaps directly connect to the communities they harmed.
This is probably the best take I’ve seen on this. It’s the fact that this is clearly directed towards fujoshis and not actual gay rep that gets me so mad about it. Stereotypes can be written right, but the way it was created was just really wrong. Don’t get me wrong, I like some BL’s like Given and Heartstopper, but their stereotypes (when there are any in the characters) are done right.
@@kurapikakurta1997 You may want to consider how it sounds when you say you're okay with gay stories written by women but not a queer/gay story written by a gay trans man. It's okay to dislike it, and certainly authors aren't infallible just because of their orientation or gender, but it's just a little weird to me to see how many people hate on queer media when it's from a creator whose identity is aligned with their story vs when it isn't. It's like LGBTQIA creators get held up on a pedestal and expected to create everything to perfectly represent every member of that demographic, and if they don't, they get torn down. (Just a general thought that came from reading your comment, not saying that's what you're doing.)
Edit: btw, if you're a woman who enjoys any kind of BL media, you're a fujoshi. That's all the word means. It doesn't mean "fetishizing, homophobic straight women" like Twitter uses it.
@@psychotophatcat I’m literally a gay trans guy
@@psychotophatcat Fujoshi translates directly to "rotten girl". You may want to consider how it sounds when you refer to any woman who enjoys BL as rotten. Yes, let's push allies away!! /sar
Also, no one said anything about the author's own demographic. There's no need; as clearly evidenced by the webtoon, it has no bearing on the quality of the story 💀💀💀 You said it yourself; LGBTQ+ authors are not infallible. Why write an essay and shoot yourself in the foot?
Have a lovely day!
@@kurapikakurta1997 Cool, I just said you might want to consider how it sounds when you say it this way. Just because it doesn't align with your own personal experience doesn't mean it's invalid or wrong.
Also to clarify, when I used "you" at the end there it was intended as a general term directed at a broad group, not specifically to you. Should've said "if someone is a woman who enjoys BL" instead. Apologies for that poor choice of wording, definitely wasn't intending on assuming anything about your identity.
As a trans polyamorous man myself I never had a problem with Boyfriends, in fact it was one of my favourite comics for a while until the internet had to go and ruin it for me and many other fans. I can completely understand why a lot of gay men don't like or appreciate the comic, it is indeed stereotypical and has an aquired taste in humour. However the backlash thats blown up recently I find to be completely unfair.
Part of why I love the comic is because I find it relateable. Because despite people not liking stereotypes, there are actual real people who fit stereotypes and shouldnt have their reprisentation squashed in favour. Its true, not all gay men are cutesie or codependant or even cringe, and there should be rep for gay men of all sorts of personalities just like any other human, but attacking this one type of person has hurt me personally quite a bit.
To hear everyone shitting on this comic that shows my kind of personality and experience feels like an attack on me as a person. The comic is flawed, yes, but the stereotype reason is being attacked too much.
I read the comic when I was a bit younger, I didn’t know anything about the author and I liked it. It was wholesome and cute, younger me liked it cause that’s what I wanted, something cute.
As a gay trans man, I personally love this comic, I love how stereotypical it is, and how the characters end up breaking away from their own stereotypes. People are mad at the comic for being "over dramatic" "over gay", I'm so tired of people gate keeping the term "gay", there are gay people that exist that act like the people in the comic act, my god. And I also like to separate the content from the creator.
i literally do not care
@@scollaceyuri okay?
@@scollaceyuri cared enough to comment that you don't care lol
@@scollaceyuri Then shut the fuck up and go "not care" somewhere you're actually wanted.
@@scollaceyuri do you have main character syndrome or why do you think this comic was directed to you? lmao
As a gay guy, I find this comic silly and cute. Yes the characters are very stereotypical, but it’s literally the point ! I wouldn’t say that it’s my favorite thing to read, but I usually have a good time when I do :(
yea! ive never seen the problem (edit: holy frackerdoodle i was so cringe pls forgive me i hate this webtoon now 🙁🙁)
Personally I think it’s ok and kinda cute I just think it’s weird that they say stuff like choccy milk and are all Asian despite only Jock looking even somewhat Asian
@@callmerink9444 wait they're all Asian? Even prep? I didn't know that.
It's like junk food, it's not going to be a 5 star meal, but is just some dumb fun
@@JArt872
Best way to put it honestly
You’re always so informed. I agree that is just stereotypical archetypes of people. I don’t personally participate in hating on the comic (I don’t like it) BUT I do deeply hate the creator for the use of the word and their “jokes” bc imagine their jokes about a different race. It wouldn’t be okay in that instance, and it’s not okay now
you made this comment 2 years ago. do you still think he committed an unforgivable sin when he said the n-word as a fourteen year old? still worthy of your hatred?
I'm a bisexual male person. I honestly don't care. My morals have jumped out the window, and I think there are many, many people who have done far worse than what refrainbow has done. I don't think he deserves death threats, and I don't think he's a bad person. As for the Webtoon, I like it. I think it's a fun little webcomic that is a great way to escape from reality.
I like his comic but imo he is a bad person because he's said some pretty racist stuff about Jews. And like with all the other stuff adding up ya can't really excuse him.
Yeah same, I also like the comic. I binged it in a day or so because it was just a cozy comic to read. Not everyone’s cup of tea and I usually enjoy in depth stories with complex characters, but this was a fun in between read that I still visit sometimes. You can like a comic and not like or agree with the creator of that comic :// But sending death threats is unacceptable, regardless of what the situation is.
@@evelynn1173 he’s also apparently drawn cp of explicitly underaged characters, and says that the nerd character is a proshipper so.. he’s not the best all around
@@evelynn1173 I'm a Jew and I looked up the comments you're talking about - he was literally making fun of antisemites. A 6 year old comment got taken out of context to make it look like he was being antisemitic, and he had a hard time remembering the context because it had been more than half a decade. That incident was wildly overblown and absolutely not worth all the hubbub everyone was throwing, and absolutely not worth the trauma of my identity being used as a cudgel against someone else.
@@normal6483 I researched it as well and yeah it's fucking stupid he wasn't actually antisemtic he was just talking about the stupid attitude of his country.
As much as I agree with the criticism that's been floating around Boyfriends lately, one thing that I'm kinda ashamed of is the fact that I kinda like the character's visual designs. Like, I know some people don't like the way the colors go together and stuff, but personally, if this was an alternate timeline where the creator and webtoon weren't so controversial, I might've even enjoyed drawing some of the characters, just because their designs so visually appealing to me. IDK if this is an unpopular opinion, but I felt like putting it out there.
Honestly the art is super good shame it was such a wasted talent
@@basilbat273 Omori + GC PFP = shut up 🤐
@@glitteryvieweraltray4369 yeah no thank you
@@glitteryvieweraltray4369 You have a stock png of a manta ray with a glitter filter over it, don't judge others for their pfp.
@@spoopyvirgil4944 It’s not stock. It’s a drawing I made a while ago.
I don’t bother to update my PFP because this is an alt
I- some how this comment also got deleted. I'm so confused... luckily I copy it before posting.
I am a gay guy. stereotypes by the people themselves aren't bad because the person is wanting to represent themselves not the community. I see myself a lot in Prep, he is a representation of me in a way. I feel very happy to see him because I like the positive way they show him! He can wear a skirt and still be a man and act as fem as he wants and still be a man, he can be as whiny as he wants and still be a man. I feel myself go "Oh :) I do that" whenever I see him.
Am i a harmful to the gay community for doing these stuff?...No. i am myself so stop putting so much pressure on gay people to not fall in to stereotypes.
ty for this, i relate sm :]
I too am a stereotype, but this just isn't it, honey. You know very well you're a lot more than that. Stereotypes are never 100% true, stereotypes are highly exaggerated just like zodiac signs
@@ghostwizard7597 I don't think I understand what you mean, can you please explain?
@@Omikel What i mean is, nobody said it isn't ok to fall on stereotypes, a lot of us do, i mean, just look at internet going crazy on "himbos". What i mean is the characters in Boyfriends all lack substantial personality (notice i said "substantial"), they exist for the sole purpose of being in their cutsy kawaii no-problem relationship.
You are not like that, honey. I too wear a skirt and i too am a man, but i'm much more than just that and i believe you are too. You are selling yourself short if you can only identify yourself as a pastel kawaii soft boy
@@ghostwizard7597 I do agree with you they are not very substantial characters, I think that's done by meaning to make them fit into the stereotypes and make it more obvious. And no just because I can see myself in a very bland and non substantial character doesn't mean I'm selling myself short. I look at the fictional characters and know that they are not real, what they have is not possible because there will be bumps in the road in real life. But seeing characters who are stereotypes just being happy with no problems makes my brain take a brake and just read, not having to think about what they are going to do because i already know what they are going to do by their nicknames.
I identify myself as a lot of stuff but one of them is not pastel kawaii soft boy even though it sounds very cool. Some things in Prep's character does not aline with me and that's fine, I can still see my representation in his character and that's all that matters for me.
Even if I don't understand English and it's not my native language, I really enjoy watching your videos.
That's kind of the only way you can enjoy her videos, if you're only watching the art and not listening to or understanding the nonsense she spews for half an hour.
@@humanbeeing4780 That's mean. Is there any one thing that you don't like about their content specifically?
@@humanbeeing4780 lmao look everyone! it's a cringe :0
@@humanbeeing4780 Did she say anything wrong? It's just her opinion.
@@humanbeeing4780 why are you here then?
I like how you explain the definition of the words being used in the accusations, both sides of the argument, different parts of the argument, your own opinion, and as well as anything else related to the topic. It's very clear and you can understand it easily. Plus you're not screaming or spitting into the mic like some other people who talk about stuff like this.
What’s funny is that the official webtoon instagram account has younger people directing it (as far as i know) and it’s doing so much better! There’s funny memes, relatable videos, and content that actually relates to the comics themselves. Some even made by users of webtoon themselves!
As a black person on the topic of people saying the N-word at 14… they should not be held accountable for that shit anymore. Like damn people act like their black friends in high school did not influence their speech. Like I knew what the word meant at 14 and so did my brothers and other black friends who said it. THE N WORD PASS WAS A THING! They had a song called “my n*gga” when I was young. While yes they could have chose not to say it, people around that age trivialized the word, that included black people. To not acknowledge it would be irresponsible.
Not to mention he is from a different country away from America. So he gets and even bigger pass cause it’s likely that he straight up didn’t know that the n-word was a slur.
THANK YOU FOR TALKING ABOUT THIS!!!!
I literally saw a TikTok of women straight up Call a wholesome scene sesggual, They were literally just having fun on the beach, and they were literally like "Ewww this is disgusting, it's so sesggual!" And I was like I'm sorry but how is this scene of them having fun on the beach, and yes I got pissed and said out of anger "Y'all are either Dumb, Homophobes, or straight up haters, but then y'all go and watch the most inappropriate and sesggual gay, lesbian, and straight h3nt82, but you judge this, which is more comically and wholesome than the rest!
And yes I am aware of what he did on the past, and they were wrong for that, but still some people need to chill
how come i always see TikTok making mountains out of molehills, like what’s going on there 😭
@@cwgged1689 ikr!!!
why are you censoring sexual like that and what is h3nt82 supposed to mean
@@user-jw4bd5id3k I'm used to other places where we have to censor both hentai and sex, sexual, and etc.
I'm overall really tired of the overpolicing of representation. One of my sapphic favorites on Webtoons has been "Savior" and many people have the OPPOSITE problem, that the characters are all pretty screwed up. But they're well written great characters! They are not SUPPOSED to be healthy the story is majorly about trauma but it's done well without any of it being just "gay trauma because gay" or any of them being reduced to stereotypes. Even the most stereotypical MC, the "evil" femme fatale character, has more depth and sympathetic emotional issues than I expected. I've DATED women like her, yes it was toxic but I RELATE to sympathizing with and loving red flag laden women like that and her toxicity is never framed positively. She's just framed sympathetically when she's vulnerable, no matter how much you hate her when she's being a b*tch. There's the complexity the representation police ordered, aaaaand they hate it. It's bad because she's not a good gf. Like, no sh*t that's the plot. That's the story.
But we apparently can't have that either so instead of pigeonholing LGBT people into stereotypes, they must be pigeonholed based on "good representation" which isn't good representation.
"Bad Representation" as a concept has devolved into just cringe culture with a moral cover thrown on top. It's just hating on something because you find it "cringe" with extra steps.
Say it with me now: Queer 👏Media 👏 Shouldn't 👏 Have 👏 To 👏 Be 👏 Thrice 👏 As 👏 Good 👏 As 👏 Straight 👏 Media 👏 To 👏 Be 👏 Allowed 👏 To 👏Exist 👏
Queer👏Media 👏Shouldn't 👏Have👏To👏Be👏Thrice👏As👏Good👏As👏Straight 👏Media👏To👏Be👏Allowed 👏To👏Exist 💕😁
Being👏criticized👏is👏not👏denying👏one's👏existence
👏 I 👏 am 👏 a 👏 surgeon 👏👏👏👏😡
IM CRYING LMAOOO@@gr1nm
Queer 👏Media 👏Isn’t 👏as 👏good 👏as 👏Straight 👏media💀💀
Thank you for coming at this with so much nuance. When I heard about the drama surrounding Boyfriends, all I really heard people saying was, “It’s not representative of actual gay relationships, it’s so stereotypical, etc.” and when looking at the comic art style, it seemed kinda obvious that it was targeting a very specific audience, so when I heard these vitriolic comments on the comic on how it had “all white characters” and was just the worst thing to exist with nothing positive to offer, I was very confused, especially when the titles characters are referred to by their tropes, rather than their names. I just didn’t get it, I’m speaking exclusively about the comic.
For me, it just seems like the internet jumping on a gay man making the representation they wanna see, and I’ve noticed it’s always a catch 22 whenever creators from marginalized groups make the rep they wanna see. Either it’s “too stereotypical and doesn’t relate to the gay experience,” and I’m not the type to believe all representation has to be good representation, if it’s not harmful and the product itself is just feel good, why’s it matter? There’s actual harmful stuff out there, why’re we focusing on a feel good slice of life comic about college kids named after their stereotypes discovering themselves?
All in all, great video!! 🙌🙌🙌🙌
I wanted to like boyfriends. poly gay rep, that isn’t just fetish shit, is important! but honestly, it was just badly written. like the adds capture a lot of the writing perfectly.
yeah honestly-
Yeah. Coming from the perspective of a gay and trans comic writer, stereotypical characters and scenes can be done right, but the writing is just wrong.
it's not a writing masterpiece but it's definitely super cute and completely harmless
I think the poly rep in Andy Bass is much much better than boyfriends.
I don't really think Boyfriends is fetishizing like ppl claim it is. I just think it's meh tbh and that it's a lil cringe but that's about it
This kind of outrage is why I usually avoid writing anything out of heteronormative or asexual as those are the acceptable things for me to write it seems. So much outrage and hate over something that might just be shitty writing
It's such a challenge. Because authors shouldn't need to go to years of therapy in prep to publish their works when people can and will just not like it and then suddenly try to "find a reason" for it. But also Authors NEED to keep writing representation because we need it and we need to pave the way for those who come after to face LESS backlash. It's hard and there is no right answer other then.... People on the internet, even sometimes the people who are all about accepting others, will never assume best intentions. And it sucks.
@@casperbinnett8265 People need to write GOOD representation, because bad representation isn't good-
@@T_E_G and what exactly constitutes 'good' representation?? it seems like, no matter what, there's going to be backlash for it either way.
different people have different ideas of good representation, and it's a lot to ask of individual authors to make sure their diverse characters and themes are completely perfect to showcase to the public. some stories call for complex, flawed characters, and those characters might just happen to be queer. some stories call for lighthearted characters with not a lot of depth, and they might just happen to be queer.
there's no one-size-fits-all 'good' representation, and you can't just expect everyone to know how to represent these characters and themes perfectly for the audience while also having it fit well into the overall story
of course, they should take responsibility when their work is outright damaging and offensive, and criticism is always welcome to any work, but i just feel like 'just write good representation!' is such an oversimplification.
people hold queer content to a standard that they don't hold straight content, even if its a queer content creator telling the story that they want to tell
@@T_E_G Imagine if someone made a straight love story and people were like, "Not ALL straight people act like that. This is very bad heterosexual representation!" Sounds weird, right?
When you said MLM relationship my brain went: "Multi-level marketing?? Wait what?"
Its controversial topic of boyfriends its reminders me how people reacted Netflix's animated show "Q-Force" 1st trailer
Except Q Force is adult animated action/comedy. And boyfriends is slice of life / romance
In case of Boyfriends: Its really is Author's escapism: Where there's no drama, no angst, no love triangle or rivalry (Or their case: love square) . Just 4 cute boys being loving each other.
Not my cup of tea but I guess its someone makes happy after bad day and just want some gay fluff
Personally, i just think the comic just gives off chronically online vibes but i dont think thats a basis to attack anyone. Although an argument can be made about how the infantilization and stereotyping of minority groups in media has real world repercussions, i hardly think a single obscure webcomic that most people don’t even know exists is threat.
As a pansexual person...Oh boy do I know better then anyone why some people are upset with this. As my sexuality is very much sexualized and is often boiled down to me just being a sl*t/ wh*re and that because im pan I must 100% want a poly relationship or a 3 way, when Im honestly not comfortable with either. I have met gay men that are very shy and soft but I've also met gay men that are strong willed and like guy shit. I've even met gay men who are stereotypically mean and nasty who use their identity like a shield.
I can understand the upset, as depicting gay guys as just cute uwu boys is very normalized and 'desired'. Same with , mean gay guys in media being almost Romanized and seen as funny. The representation they get is either vanilla and over saturated or could be seen as bad and dehumanizing. We don't have enough representation of characters just being people that are also gay. It's always dramatized to bring interest.
It's kinda like how lesbian women have to be butch. It just isn't true and it's degrading as hell to just categorize sexualities as an umbrella stereotype of what they MUST be
I’m pansexual too, and I’m hoping to get into a polyamorous relationship when I get older, but I know that I don’t just want multiple partners just for sex I want an actual relationship too.
Also pan, and old enough to have lived through the creation of pansexual as a seperate identity from bisexual. The fact everyone thinks we're just inherently into poly and open relationships is the bane of my existence. Especially since poly is "in" right now so everyone thinks they have to try it wether that want to or not. I dip my toes in many social circles and the amount of breakups I hear about on a daily basis because a partner wants to try poly and then gets jealous just... astounds me.
@@ItsYaBoiV I’m not pan, but I keep seeing people make stories like that for their characters or even actual people. I hate the fact that people make it a trend / bad story. I hate people fetishizing these types of things or not understanding not everyone of that gender or sexuality is the same. Hopefully this makes sense I don’t want this to come off as rude in some way
Did you actually read the comic though? Because it's really not problematic. It's literally an escapism comic written by a trans, gay man from a homophobic country.
@@user-jw4bd5id3k yes but that still doesn’t justify the racist
I don’t support toxic people
I'm a bi polyamorous trans man and I like this comic, it's not what I usually read, but I like to check it from time to time, it's honestly really innocent and harmless, I've discussed this topic with my friend who's a bisexual cis man and for both of us the massive anger towards this comic felt unreasonable.
Boyfriends gives me the vibes of those simple and relatable comics of the 2010s who would start with a random prompt that was supposed to be a one-shot but blew up and became a full story, you know, the ones you'd usually find in tumblr and gain a reasonable following. That's why I like it, it reminds me of simpler times.
I feel that people from the community have been way too harsh lately, specially at smaller creators trying to tell stories about their own identities, since they are more accesible than a celebrity or someone from a big corporation.
I mean, it's good that we're asking for better representation and not just settle for crumbs of it... But I think that sentiment should be directed at corporations, not small creators of or own community who happen to get lucky and have their stories be noticed. And well, webtoon giving bad ads to their originals doesn't help at all.
As someone who's currently writing a comic I'm pretty scared that, if it gets big, I might face the kind of harassment that Ray has been receiving, specially being a trans person on the internet. There are a lot of people who are misgendering them and treating them as a straight girl who's fetishizing gay men and... That's horrible tbh. It doesn't matter if they've made mistakes or did bad things in the past.
This controversy made me realize that I just have an inexplicable hatred of super cutesy and sweet and nice characters. Well maybe not inexplicable. A lot of issues stemming from self hatred and jealousy that I've been dealing with for years. uH ANYWAY awesome video!! your research is so well done and youre very well-spoken and your art is just *chefs kiss*!
As an old queer person, my biggest complaint with the influx of lgbt+ media over the last, idk... decade? is that the community is so desperate for inclusion that we accept any representation regardless of how terrible, cliche, or fetishy it is. And there is nothing more fantasized about than the idealized BL trope, which has had such a large, terrible impact on gay media that it's essentially impossible to make anything cute that depicts gay men without a comparison being made. Even if Boyfriends is completely unproblematic, because of its predecessors, it's kinda doomed to receive harsh criticism.
As a gay trans man, I don't feel ultimately there isn't any ill intent in the comics themselves. Humans will read things where they want to, and while I personally haven't read any of the comic in context... what I have seen has just come off as a cutesy slice of life comic about gay men in a poly relationship. For me, nothing comes off in a way that I personally would find offensive. But that's me and my world view and perspective, so I can't speak for what someone else may see and actually find offensive.
When it comes to these issues, we have to remember that as individuals, we have our own unique perspective to take into account. In the end, a willingness to talk to and listen to one another to come to a healthy compromise is the best way forward in my honest opinion.
I was one of the unfortunate souls who saw the ad before the comic. These ads were awful and gave me scurvy everytime I saw them. As soon as I recover from the last one I'll try to read it and see for myself 🤣
I was iffy about this comic until you said it was by a gay trans man. HOW is a gay man fetishizing/infantilizing gay men, as one. People DON'T EVER say this about straight people doing this. Maybe I'm especially angry as a gay trans man (who fits into so many stereotypes) but damn.
EDIT: Also needed to add, individual artists are not responsible for good representation. If it was a company, i would see peoples point, but this is someone making a lighthearted comic on their own. Jfc
‘Individual artists are not responsible for good representation”
LOUDER
LGBT+ people can fetishize other LGBT+ people even from their own group. Alot of it stems from internalized stuff that they pick up from a lot of online communities. Like when you're in a space that gives you a silver of validation that the rest of society , but that same space expects you to be their "kawaii softboi bean" you began to feed into it just to continue to have that support and validation.
The fetishisation comes from the people that read it. A stories intended audience sets up what the story will be. Just because I’m a gay trans man doesn’t mean I can’t write a bad trans character.
I’m a black person who has made multiple black characters in the past, they were bad characters, it happens. You’re not immune to it just bc you are part of the community you represent but I get where you are coming from, I mean in general
Honestly don't really care what people think of it, people can enjoy what they want. But as a gay Trans guy who doesn't fit into alot of stereotypes I just can't relate to all the characters being owo soft bois. Not everyone is this perfect innocent bean who does no wrong. Some people can relate, and I'm not saying that no characters should be like that, but I just wish there was some diversity in the personalities.
Just because it isn't my cup of tea, though, doesn't mean it's a bad story. Some people can relate and do like it, and it's okay to have different opinions! If people (including myself) don't like it, just don't read it. It's not that hard ^^
Also don't take me opinion as expert opinion, I've only read a few episodes and it wasn't my thing.
I've never really took the boyfriends comic that seriously, i only make fun of it because I think it's funny, the ads are weird and also I just don't especially like the characters (especially nerd holy shit he's so fucking annoying) but that's about the extent of my 'hate' for it, other than that I'm pretty indifferent to everything else. Though, i do really like the art style and how goth is treated like a typical gay man even though he's trans if that's anything
I think boyfriends was a good idea badly executed, especially when webtoon took out the ads, but it's also somewhat entertaining. I mean, if you can be a little uncomfortable to read sometimes and there are things that would have been better explored, as long as we realize that most gay men don't act like that, the story is entertaining and enjoyable.
I liked how Celestia approached the subject, she gave very good information and I really liked listening to her :D.
and also, too bad that the creator has so much controversy :(
because if he hadn't done those things maybe this would have happened as a surreal slice of life webtoon and that's it, but well this world is weird never expect normal things to happen without having his weird side.
This comic aint a documentary it's a meme and people r taking it too seriously they should be getting wooshed for that. Where did it it say "this is a 100% accurate representation of real story of real gay people irl"
It's just a comic with some silly fantasy anime logic where the characters act weird. If you think its supposed to depict irl people that's your own assumption and that means you should get mad at your own stupid assumption not the comic lol
"...badly executed"? Was the axe blunt or something?
@honey b any group like that is so sensitive now smh this is why people are terrified to draw any characters gay or black or sumn cos they will get criticized to hell if it aint perfect
I will always have a special place for this comic in my heart. As someone who had been repressing their gender dysphoria for so long to end up relating so much to one of the characters and then find out that their trans I broke down realizing I could have the kind and loving relationship I want and be myself.
The first time I saw Boyfriends I was like "oh I never see poly representation that doesn't just look like it's being sexualized this might be good" but then reading it I just couldn't enjoy it. It still felt iffy. It just felt like majority of the comic was s3x, stereotyping, awkward back and forth, and an occasional talk of their college life. It felt like the only personalities of the characters that were expanded on were one thing they like and then their feelings towards the other characters. I also haven't read much of it so I don't know, but of the 60 episodes I do remember reading, there was barely any background on the characters themselves, their families, friends, stuff like that.
Thank you SO MUCH for this video. Literally argued about this topic with people a few days ago, and a thing a lot of people tend to miss with the "harmful stereotype" argument is that a lot of people actually act like that, and calling the boyfriends cringy and weird is really detrimental to all the men who felt seen with this comic. Someone literally told me "thank you for being the type of person i get stereotyped as", as if the problem was cute flamboyant gays existing, when it actually is homophobes pushing these tropes on people who don't identify with them. I feel like a lot of loud Boyfriends haters are actually younger gay boys who still struggle with internalized homophobia and want to be taken seriously by distancing themselves from stereotypical gays as much as they can. Like, just let us enjoy a cutesy silly romance where everyone is kind with eachother, I don't need every lgbt+ media to be dramatic and traumatizing
18:32 soo... if someone thought something was ok at 14 that means their apology 10 years latter is meaningless? Ok cool, got it, no growing or changing aloud. I'll just re adopt all the nonsense I believed at 14 into my world view. I thought it was fine then, so the things I say now as an adult and what I have learned in the mean time do not matter, it is what i did at 14 that really counts and shows my true character. This makes perfect sense and is a reasonable standard to hold people to👍🏼😊🤝🏽
I loved this comic so much when it was on canvas. I understand it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but I have a lot of sentimentality connected to it, as it helped me come to terms with who I am. I think those who dislike it are valid in their opinion, however I believe it has just been blown out of proportion. When I read it (lost interest after the transfer), I understood that it was all just for fun and a way to have a wholesome moment. I didn’t think it was a reflection on how real people are or anything like that. I get that people are upset with the “uwu gay smol bean”, anyone would be, but the thing is that it’s not only the four of them that are soft and cute, EVERYONE else is established to be cute, they just happen to be the focus because they are the main characters.
Tldr; people are valid in their opinions, but also both sides need to shut up sometimes. The author clearly just made a cute little comic and it’s not their fault it randomly blew up like it did.
Hey there! Trans gay guy here. Thank you for tackling this. I have been reading the comic and thoroughly enjoyed it and showed it to friends. I love the comic but I can see how others may not like it. Sadly, slander of the webcomic has invaded my feed despite my hardest attempts to wipe it off so I've been unable to read without feeling bad. I do wish you talked about the proshipping as despite my attempts to find it, I cannot seem to find the proof about it but Im sure I can find it somewhere else. The video was great and I think you did a good job going through the nuance of the comic part.
It's just a very short interaction with a fan. The fan replies something like "nerd gets kinkshamed on the internet" and the author answer (quite jokingly but many ppl take it like canon and true for some reason) is "nerd bf proshipper vs nerd gf antishipper arc".
That's all I could find, but I thing ppl also add the draing of the bts as proshipper even when the author was still a minor at the time but anyway. Also I'm from a place that jokes about everything and are known for doing that, so I'm sorry if I'm being a bit insensitive with the topic, I'm not use to internet culture that much, at least from the U.S.A. 😅😅😅
Thank you so much for being nice about it, people are so quick to react and everyone’s so mean and I don’t get anything from it
Even I myself fell for misinformation, that the creator is supposedly homophobic and transphobic
I really appreciate you just sharing the facts
(I commented this before watching the whole video)
Me too(even as a heterosexual person)
Personally I think this comic is cute, I don't really know why people think it's "fetishization", like, they're young adults and they like to do "things" often.
But like most people in relationships do, and yes the characters are written stereotyped, but they're meant to be stereotyped.
As a gay man, I really don't think it's bad, I really enjoyed reading it and learned what poly relationships are by reading this webtoon.
I understand that people find it bad and don't like it, it's normal. If someone hates it, that's fine too.
But it's not a bad webtoon, it's silly and cute, and some of us like that stuff, even when the characters are just stereotypical stupid characters doing and saying stupid stuff.
I think hating on a webtoon when it's not really bad is not the right thing to do, and some just hate it for no real reasons.
I liked it when i was reading it, but now, all the hate toward this webtoon made me avoiding it, i don't know if i can still enjoy this webtoon without behing shamefull.
And i don't think i will be abble to read it again now, 'cause all i see on Instagram, UA-cam and Tiktok is people hating on a webtoon i used to really love because it used to make me feel valid and happy.
That's really depressing to see all the things that used to make me feel good are hated or just really bad now.
(Sorry for the mistakes, english isn't my first language :/)
Thank you for treating this topic with the nuance it deserved. The only problem I had was when you spoke about someone "needing to know better at 14". Not everyone grows up in the same environment, or will be exposed to the same information. I come from a racist, homophobic and transphobic household and didn't get the information I needed to become a more sensitive person up until recently. If we keep holding people's wrong doings when they were young like a knife to the neck we are not allowing someone to grow. So long as someone proves that they have indeed changed and stop saying those things in public or private the internet should not hold a knife to their neck.
The first time i read boyfriends, way before it became a controversial thing, i thought it was just, pretty cute. Nothing special, just, a neat romance comic with cute colourful art.
And then after a few months everyone was talking about how it was the worst thing ever created and satan himself wouldn't accept such a disgusting piece of garbage and the art was horrible and blahblahblah. And i was like, huh?? What did i miss?
You know what’s so funny? I haven’t read the comic and don’t or haven’t ever wanted to read is bc it just sounds cringey. But ever since I heard about all the “allegations” or whatever of being unrealistic, I kinda just sat there and thought, “isn’t slice if life supposed to be unrealistic?” Idk I just think someone didn’t like the comic and decided to throw things out of proportion.
A problem I've seen recently is that while yeah, legally 18 year olds are adults, they're by no means mature enough to be 0% problematic, and people who are learning english aren't taught about sociopolitical issues, when i was 14-15 and the 2020 thing happened I literally learned what the n word was. And even so I've never used it, that doesn't mean that maybe at my 18 years of life I still hold some minor problematic thoughts, and guess what? that's okay because most humans don't live 18 years, life doesn't end at 20 and in my country at least most 30 year olds live with their parents.
I'm so tired of people trying to police the growth of everyone when not every person becomes mature enough at 13, in fact, it's rare to see that but we hold everyone to a really high standard lately.
There are two things I do when I read this comic…
1. It’s not real, it’s a work of fiction. Just some harmless fun.
2. The art is not the artist. The child is different from the parent.
18:00 i would just like to point out that along with being 14 it was also 9 years ago aka 2013, which, if you remember, the internet was a lot more edgy and popular white youtubers at the time did use the n word which, while not an excuse, does give more credence to them not understanding that it wasn't just part of american english
Thank you for clearing this up for me. I was very naive and believed Twitter people that the author and comic were the WORST things to exist. I generally, do not go on webtoon anymore. I just.... Can't. I just don't really like the platform and the comics have not caught my interest in some time. This is on my part though, because I WAS barley on the app when I had it.
I really didn’t get the reason behind people hating this comic (like making those slander memes and stuff like that) since I was given no context at all and it happened so suddenly, so I’m glad I found this video. I really appreciate it.
As a trans gay man, I really enjoyed boyfriends as a fun fluffy story because.. goth is trans. yet you don't know that fact until the pride episode. That feels so odd to poiint out, but genuinely it's so refreshing to see a trans man in fiction whose transness is never discussed until a wordless and constructive scene of them all dressed in their flags. _Especially_ when the story is so implicitly se^ual.
You took the words out of my mouth when you started talking about where the people in the LGBTQ+ community are only seen in certain serotypes where their sexuality defines them as a person when that is only one aspect of their lives because of the media and lack of representation.
(Disclaimer: I am not in the LGBTQ+ community but I know and is friends with people in the community and I watch how those people act and how other react because of what they identify as) (Disclaimer: I'm not saying that this is how all people in the community are treated or seen, this is just from personal observations)
As a black person, I don't get why they're getting so much flack for using a slur nearly a decade ago if they've shown growth since then. 10 years is a lot of time to learn and it seems like they haven't used it since, so I don't see the outrage over this
Critics: We need more comics of gay/queer relationships done by the community.
Also critics: Not in that way!
Basically it's always the same. Comics/writing/art is hard. One cannot make everyone happy, so if it makes the creator happy in either making it or financially doing it, it's the only thing the creator has to make happy. People need to try doing their own to see how hateful the internet is.
I think that there might be a idea with the webtoons ads as they are all horrible. Perhaps it is to create controversy as controversy generally sells better than being just good.
It's not a harmful comic. It's just cringe. Gives me a weird sort of nostalgia almost- It's like when hetalia was huge.
Im not gay but bi so i don't know how much my opinion counts so please take my comment lightly, i kinda liked this webtoon, not becouse of the sexy scenes or something like it, but becouse it was a pretty wholesome relationship and funny sometimes, the artstile was cute and such.
I don't really care about the realism, becouse i was there to read to get detaced from reality, if there was really realism those guys would get homophobic insult every 2 episodes (sadly, but at least here where i live it's like this)
I like it too! I'm Bi/Pan and on the Aromantic scale, I like this comic but see the issues.
HONESTLY, I mean the “spicy” scenes are nice, the part I enjoy the most is the comedy and just the wholesome interactions that make me say “aww” or “omg that’s so cute”
@@ander_1O1 Yeah, same. I understand why people don't like it but I see other people's sides too
as a demi bisexual I can understand how someone could be mad about the comic, but they have to know that stereotypes are used in every gender. flip the main cast around to female you get the typical nerdy girl, the moody goth, the popular jock, and the rich preppy girl. I understand how the creators actions are bad and could and did hurt peoples feelings, but being told that "if you read boyfriends and are okay with the stereotypical gay guys trope you should die!" well? why aren't they saying the same things about "mean girls" or "heathers". People are upset that the fact prep is the preppy rich boy and say that it hurts gay representation when you should also be saying the same about Regina George. Not even blonde is a dumb blonde, and not every gay guy is defined by one normal stereotype.
I can't speak for the gay community, what I can speak that for me, boyfriends isn't as bad as people make it out to be. It takes normal stereotypes mostly placed in heterosexual media and makes it about a group of four boys who are all in love with one another in a sweet, loving, and respectful relationship. i'm not saying every gay relationship is all puppies and rainbows, but isn't that somethings that everyone would want? a love so pure and trustworthy that you never get out of the honey moon phase?
I would love a relationship like that, but I understand its not the same for everyone.
if I made anyone upset known its my own opinion and that im only going off of what I think and feel. I've read some comics and figured out that yes it is hurtful and i understand, but growing up in a society where those stereotypes man or women is basically everywhere I can't help to think it's more of a cute take on bad representation.
thank you for listening. (know I do not condone the artist using vulgar language and creating art pieces of two real life people okay. all im saying is that too me, the comic isn't so bad)
I just read the whole thing and yes,i agree
@@purplepurple1178 thank you
I really like the comic, but I don’t like the “infantilization” argument. I’m currently in college and yeah, my friends and I use goofy words or can act childish. The characters are all in their early 20’s, it’s normal how they are acting (though played up cause it’s a comic). I really don’t get why this one gets so much hate when I’ve seen a million straight webcomics or animes that are essentially the same thing. Not every mlm story needs to be great representation, or to talk about homophobia/transphobia, or experience hardship. We can have mindless fun gay media, just like how there’s mindless fun straight media.
Yes! Agree
People make me feel so weird for liking the comic like damn
good!!
@@scollaceyuri I’m gay/pan poly trans masc I think I’m allowed to like it 👋🏻
im pretty sure the nerd is cannonly a proshhiper
He also looks 12.
I had to pick my jaw up off the floor I’m flabbergasted 😟
Honestly….. I was expecting more. The controversy about the comic itself feels more hollow and overblown than I was expecting. As you said, it’s pretty clear that nothing in this comic is meant to be seen as realistic. It would probably be a hell of a lot more depressing if it was, considering how openly reviled poly relationships are by many people throughout the world, and there is no truly “realistic” representation of a non-traditional relationship dynamic without also covering the backlash and hardships that come with being in that sort of relationship. If you write a story about a non-traditional relationship (and I mean ANY relationship that qualifies as non-traditional, such as mixed race couples and relationships between a disabled person and an able-bodied person, not just lgbtq+ ones), set it in the real world, and make everything about it true to real life, but then completely ignore the outside opposition that those kind of relationships face, then that defeats the entire purpose of making the relationship itself realistic and comes across more like cherry picking.
My only real complaint about the comic is that it’s pretty boring, and I lost interest quickly. Now, the controversy around the creator themself feels a bit more legitimate. Not death threat worthy by any means, but with more clear and definitive reasons for others to be upset. Regardless, this isn’t as horrifically offensive as what I was expecting.
I have noticed this too and I have been getting the ads less now
As a gay guy I think the main problem that I have with “Boyfriends” isn’t the comic itself or heck even the artist.
Rather it’s the stigma that people form because of the overly cutesy representation of gay relationships. I know that the artist cannot control that and that the comic is likely to be an escapist romantic fantasy but I still feel anger towards them because of their comic.
It sucks when I interact with people on online games and they view me as being promiscuous and flamboyant just for being gay or dressing feminine (as in just wearing pink or being proud of my sexuality). And when I ask them why they have those beliefs half of the time it comes from the universally-hated ads for the webcomic. Again, I acknowledge that the artist themself also likely doesn’t have anything to do with the marketing for their webcomic but it just hurts to know that these people’s ignorant beliefs stems from this series.
So yeah, that’s really my only ‘problem’ with the comic. Not really the actual comic itself-although the writing some of the time gives me a headache-but the stigma and beliefs that hateful people might take in because of the “uwu kawaii” writing, the pathetically annoying marketing, and the stereotypical traits about gay men that the characters have.
It’s just harder for me to be open up about myself if people only see me as some sort-of promiscuous gay who is endangering others because I’m spreading STDs or monkeypox due to my apparently high libido that I’ve never known about. People can like whatever content they want and in a better world this content would be perfectly acceptable. But due to right-wing bigots who are quick to misinterpret media and use it to their benefit, I’ve been judged harshly because of it.
On a side-note I do appreciate the representation of polyamorous relationships because I believe that relationships shouldn’t be limited to only two parties as long as everyone consents to it. However I do feel that the ‘representation’ in the comic isn’t really good? I know the author is a gay trans man but that doesn’t absolve them of criticism of how they represent homosexual relationships. I know it’s because I have a problem with the overly cutesy stuff and I do actually like that stuff but in “Boyfriends” it just seems a bit too turned up? I don’t how to describe it but I’d use the sometimes weird writing as an example. Not all gay couples have to be the brutally realistic relationships that some people expect and I do want a break from that. But when I compare how lesbian women are represented in say western media as opposed to gay men, lesbian relationships are generally written to be full of nuance and have actually complex and meaningful characters. Of course it could be because I need to search for better media of gay male relationships and I hope that is the case.
DC's Batman comics: Superior.
Webtoon's Boyfriends: Inferior.
At last something that explains why people are mad! I read it when I was younger back when it was on tapas and I saw no issues with it. I am a bi trans guy and I find the comic showed relationships similar to my own, granted very light heartedly.
I personally wish people actually explained why the comic was bad instead of just saying so cause it took me til this video to understand why people were upset
On the topic of people infantilizing Elliot Page after the Met Gala, I've seen plenty of cis gender men also get infantilized in the same way, people like Eddie Redmayne, Karl Jacobs, and other men who have played a quieter , more gentle character in media or put out a very soft or gentle personality on their own social media. They'll get called things like "bean" and "cinnamon roll" and all round most people just treat them as cutesy boys. This in no way disregards that Elliot must have felt like shit to be treated as "less than a man" after he publicly came out and transition. That probably felt terrible and so invalidating. But infantilization like that is definitely not solely used on trans men, it's used on men who have played or put out a soft, gentle, sweet personality.
I just wanna say thank you for showing all sides of the argument. Good and bad.
As a non-american bilingual speaker (I'm Mexican) I can totally back up the thing about not understanding the meaning of the N word.
It's not about the meaning itself, but the context: Here in Mexico we didn't have black slavery. We actually call black skinned people "Negritos" in an affectionate way, as "Negro" means black in spanish (and "-ito" means "little", but in a cute non diminishing way). Also, as there's not a lot of african descendants here in Mexico, most of us aren't aware of how heavy the African-american culture suffering was. We just don't understand the context.
Most of our naturalization with english was through the internet and/or living in USA and getting used to the slang there, so we say a lot of inappropriate things without completely understanding how hurtful it can be.
I, too, used to say the 'N' word as a joke. I understood it was a slang but as most people used it on a funny way I didn't understand it's origins and context. It wasn't until I had the opportunity to speak with a black man face to face that understood how impactful and hurtful it could be as they told me about it's history while his eyes teared up.
So, in conclusion: Most non-american english speaker don't carry that racist/hurtful intention when they use a word that is so controversial for USA (and brittish) citizens
From the moment I start reading it, I never excepted it to be realistic just the name alone tells you everything you need to know
As mlm, I really like this comic. It chessy in all the right ways, It makes me very happy. And also I hate when people say that it was like made by a straight woman and then say 'Stan this comic' WHO IS MADE BY A STRAIGHT WOMAN.
i like how celestial points out that the internet is not as scathing towards wlw content. as a bi, i can say that wlw rep is actually a lot more prominent now (the owl house, adventure time: obsidian, LITERALLY ALL 7 SEASONS OF ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK). obviously writing quality varies, but the writing never makes it feel like the wlw rep is just fetishiziation
however, i do feel bad for my mlm counterparts. female sexuality is notoriously used as a way to advertise, so wlw rep is actually a lot more widely accepted than mlm (at least in my view). specifically, i can make a gay joke ab myself and people won’t take me seriously, but if i see a guy make the same gay joke- they’re ridiculed for even doing so.
tying back to the boyfriends comic + “rep”. society just does not tolerate male wholesomeness/sexuality as much as female wholesomeness/sexuality. it’s prominent. it’s obvious. the amount of soft gentle guys we get in media that are done dirty, or the amount of horribly, toxicly masculine chars we get that get everything given to them on a silver platter. writing for men has always been different than women, and although we’ve focused so much on improving rep of women+wlw... i think we’ve failed to respect the counterpart (men+mlm) the same way. it’s like one flower got way more love and sunlight than the other.
the boyfriends comic backlash is a reflection of society’s obviously backwards stereotyping of MEN IN GENERAL- not just gay men. i am NOT disregarding female struggles- i mean COME ON lol- but misogyny hurts both men and women (like the stereotypical beliefs of women being submissive and men must be dominant. they play hand in hand, and cause each other). ppl wanting this comic to be more brooding or “realistic” r just being unfair asf
As a Jewish man, I appreciate that you also acknowledge the antisemitism and how it’s not your place to forgive his actions in saying gross ‘jokes’. Personally even if it’s satirical?? It’s not necessary and gives fuel to those who don’t mean it in a satirical way. People genuinely hate us, genuinely think every Jewish persons are ‘evil’ and it’s horrible to see it spread online
So just an ace gay man here who has no idea about the comic's controversy - I read the whole comic, and the entire time it mostly just seemed like a cute pastel gay poly comic with trans rep, and was overall just very cute to me? Literally just cute pastel shipping stuff inspired by innocuous tropes (which are basically aesthetics). I never saw much wrong?
Time to watch and see what I think!
Watched the video, my thoughts -
Pretty much every critique on the comic is something I don't agree with (I agree with her views)
I have no right to accept the n word or anti semitism apologies as I'm neither black nor Jewish, but I think the fact they did apologize and the situations context means something
The shit with BTS, they were a minor at first, but the rest concerns me
The ads aren't the comic's fault.
thats... it? twitter is insane omg. wait til they hear about, idk, the entire yaoi genre as a whole up until the last 10 years maybe lmao. i never see any 'dni if you like loveless' but i guess it never comes up.
When it comes to storytelling and representation, one must understand that what makes a certain depiction harmful is lack of other diversity.
Example 1: you can have a campy, fem, gay man. These types of gay men *exist* in real life openly and closeted. You just can’t have that be the *only* way you represent gay men. If you have a fem, gay man, a bear, and a super masc, gay man then there is nothing wrong with having one gentleman being fem. That’s good representation because you have the spectrum; you aren’t representing gay men as uniform or as there being one type of gay man
Example 2: in terms of character deaths, the same goes. If you only have the only gay character die, there is an implication there about how one views gay people, intentional or not. If there are several gay people and one dies, there isn’t a problem because there isn’t a message or “burying your gays” situation if there still are other gay characters.
Example 3: When it comes to trama it is important to, once again, have other representations and diversity. You can depict LGBTQ+ life as being difficult or painful, but if that’s all you depict it as then that’s bad representation. Queer pain isn’t all there is to being queer; there is queer joy and beauty however small. Queer people can be depicted simply enjoying being queer or falling in love. They don’t always need to suffer just because they’re queer, even though that is unfortunately life. Often times this depiction just makes is seem like all there is to being queer is pain. If a movie or novel is focused on this, that’s fine, but the general media trend is that there is *only* queer pain or struggle.
Example 4: When it comes to lesbians, there is often the problem that their relationship is only sexualized. Often times two women (almost always cis) will only ever be shown making out, or making sexual moves at one another (thanks male gaze). There isn’t any platonic love often shown in larger media that shows these characters being in… well, a romantic relationship. The lack of this only depicts lesbians and/or fem loving fems as sexual and not being able to have “real” love. It’s okay to have overly sexual characters just *once again* show other aspects of relationships or even other types of similar relationships.
Example 5: in real life, people aren’t always good. It’s okay to make a character that is mean, abusive or evil as long as it’s handled and displayed properly, with a clear depiction on how what they are doing is wrong. Once again, for the final time, it is the diverse representation that brings characters to life and makes them feel like people: not just a gay villain, but rather a villain that happens to be gay.
We want to see gay representation everywhere. Our Flag Means Death does a wonderful job at all of this, because it makes these characters *people.* Not saying that everything needs to be a perfectly conjured work of art; I enjoy a romance manga that is only fluff and nothing bad ever happens. However, in the wider scope, these are things one must keep in mind when making or consuming media. :)
Hi, I just wanted to say thanks for making this video. I didn't know a single bit of this and didn't even know Webtoon had made ads of this comic so thank you. I liked that you were willing to step back at some points when you didn't have the proper viewpoint to make a judgement; so many people like to talk for other demographics and I believe acknowledging when you can't make an informed statement on something is very mature. Thank you for your research and work, I appreciate it!
I have had this entire argument with my friend before. (She's an avid hater of the comic) and she dismissed everything I said. Though that may be because she's a horrible person who refuses to be wrong. But she made all of these points, and I refuted all of them, but because I was getting angry about it, she completely refused to acknowledge that I was making good points. Only brushing me off as emotional and stupid. This video helped me understand that I wasn't stupid and that I was actually making perfectly good points.
I've been waiting for this kind of vid thanks for you content! :>
17:55 hey quick note on that! i am not defending them for saying it in any way but as someone whos from a non english speaking country as well, especially one with a lot less diversity than america, it is very common for people of younger ages here to not grasp the meaning of certain slurs and thus use them lightly. sadly, in a lot of non english countries, the use of words like the n-word is still very common and normalized. on top of that, they might have been fans of people who further normalized this ""edgy"" behavior. fortunately my american friend educated me about the implications and history and why i should never say it at a young age, but others might have not been! before someone comments saying that im wrong, pls remember that different people have different perspectives and experiences and you may be from a more progressive community. again, not defending their (or anyone who says that) actions but just giving my insight from my perspective ^^
Where they live apparently they know what the word means. I'm not completely sure, but many people from the area have said its common knowledge.
i'm surprised how ppl read that shit without cringing 500 times in 5 chapters
When you buy cotton candy, you cant expect it to have the nutritional value of a home cooked meal.
About the N-word,
I’m from a Spanish-speaking country, with Spanish being my first language, and my only interaction with English-speaking media were tv shows and movies when I was younger. I myself have never used the word (as far as I can recall, since I don’t tend to know or assume the ethnicity of someone on the internet), but I didn’t know it was a slur when I started to interact more with the English-speaking side of the internet (thx wattpad) when I was 16 or so. Until then, the only context I’ve seen it before was on movies/ tv shows where a black person referred to another as that, and in my country (and I think in most of LatinoAmérica?) we call someone with a really dark skin tone El negro / mi negra/ el Chombo / etc on an affectionate way, so I wholeheartedly believed it was an equivalent. It was a real cultural shock for me. It also took me a long time to understand how heavy the word itself was, thinking that maybe it was an insult, but not THAT bad, since I saw lots of people interacting with each other using the word in a neutral or affectionate way? (Also I started using Twitter at 18 to follow certain artists and, Jesus Christ, it was An Experience™️)
Same with the queer word. I identified (and still do) with the queer word, just as many of my LGBT+ friends did as an umbrella term (most of us understand English, but still live and interact on Spanish-speaking countries and only knew about certain topics by memes), and when someone got mad at me using it and then said it is a slur, I couldn’t understand why? I thought I was an umbrella term for a non cis-straight person that is part of the LGBT community???
My point is, I’m not defending what they said, but I can still give them the benefit of the doubt on their allegation of not knowing better, since something like that happened to me as well.
Just because someone understands the basic of the language and a minimum of certain slangs, doesn’t mean they actually understand the social connotations of certain phrases / words / social cues / specific contexts. Maybe they’re just starting to learn and really didn’t know better. Most non-native English speaking people didn’t grow up exposed to US culture or their political stands, and really don’t get what everyone’s mad about until someone explains it to them.
I hope this was readable and made sense for anyone who got this far, and if so, I would love to read your thoughts on the issue! :)