Okay, biggest question is 'How much do you want to spend?' You could probably match the hull value of the airplane in a panel upgrade. You probably will! If you want to go Garmin, the G3X Touch 10.6" Landscape and 7" Portrait with a six cylinder engine monitor. A little over $21,000. That replaces ALL the instruments in your panel right now. Your Radar, considering it's age, you might want to consider replacing that. The G3X Touch is going to be able to display weather on your displays as it's downloaded. I don't see that the G3X can display data from the Radar system, however. So, my question is, we know that an on-airplane Radar is nowadays a more 'tactical' device for dodging thunderstorms and such, and the downloaded into you'd get from Sirius is more for longer range planning, how much time do you use the Radar for getting around thunderstorms? On the other hand, the G500/G600 TXis will both support Radar, but only Honeywell/Bendix and only the RDS80/81 and the RDR 2000/2100. So, you'd need to upgrade the Radar system. The G500TXi is like $18,000 just for the 10" display and the G600TXi is $28,000 for the 10" display. The GFC500 is supported for Lola, I think. The certifications go all the way back to the T210F, and I'm pretty sure she's newer than that. While I am no longer an active pilot and haven't been for a very long time, I like the LVL Level button on all of the Garmin Autopilots. Even experienced Instrument Rated pilots can get vertigo and the LVL button just helps to get back on track. Price starts at about $9,000, but figure it'll be closer to $15,000 by the time you're done with everything. GPS/Nav/Comm. Well, I'm sure that the GTN 750Xi would be top of everyone's list, but we're talking $18K here. That's just $3,000 less than the two displays and engine monitor. Probably not the amount you want to spend. For $6,000 less, I'd go with the GTN 650Xi, at $12,000. With the 7" Portrait display on the G3X Touch, you can probably 'offload' a lot of the information that would be the 750 to the G3X. Maybe, consult your avionics specialist. I want a second GPS or Nav source and a second Comm unit. So, you have two choices. The GNC 355 will give you GPS and Comm for about $8,000, or the GNC215 gives you standard Nav/Comm for $5,300. Personally, I like the second GPS. IF you can afford it, the best solution would be TWO GTN 650Xis. Considering it's only $4,000 more than the GNC355, I would think long and hard over that one. I don't think Garmin makes a remote mounted audio panel that will work with what we have here. They DO make a remote audio panel that works with the G3X Touch, but it appears to be a non-certified, Experimental use only version. Ask Garmin if they're going to make a certified version. They also make a different remote audio panel, but that's controlled by the GTN or GTN Xi radios, but only the 750 model. The GMA 350c audio panel would be what I would choose. I like the concept of this audio panel because of the '3-D Audio' feature. Of course, it requires a stereo headset, but most people are using them today anyway. The 'C;' version allows for use of Bluetooth devices, also. Finally, as a backup, I'd want the GI 275, but I'm not sure if it's legal with the G3X for that role. So, a 10.6" Landscape AND a 7" Portrait G3X Touch, a GFC 500, two GTN650Xis, a GMA350c audio panel, and a GI 275 backup indicator, without installation, is going to be between $65-70,000. Plus whatever it's going to cost to have it installed and whatever else they'll need, like probes for the engine monitor, etc. I'm guessing you're looking at near $100,000 or more. Now, here's the funny thing. The GI-275 is a really cool system, but buy the Attitude Indicator, the HSI, the MFD and the EIS gauges and all together, they're going to run you about $18,000, or only about $3,000 less than the G3X 10 and 7 inch display combo with EIS. Okay, the panel is going to need to be all new for the G3X, whereas the GI275 can fit in the current panel without rework, and you do need to take that into consideration, but for me, I'd rather spend the money on a 10.6" and 7" display versus the 3" displays of the GI-275. Then again, I'm older and my eyes aren't what they used to be. 😁😂 Okay, let's talk about Aspen Avionics, since you already have one. An Evolution 2500 package. I'm using Pacific Coast Avionics, although I think Sarasota Avionics is the same corporate company. Figure about $30,000 installed for three displays. While I don't think I would want this, you are familiar with it and it would be easy to upgrade to this sort of system. I would ask Martin Pauly what he thinks of his system. He seems to be very happy with it. You can get the optional Angle of Attack, and also the SVT is also optional, so you'll need to pay for that. I'm pretty sure it's standard on the G3X. I'm not sure what autopilot system will work with the Evolution 2500, though. You might need to get that Genesys System, or the Garmin GFC 600, since I don't think the GFC 500 can interface to it. Avidyne has the DFC90, but I can't find a list of STC'd aircraft and you would need to use the Aspen Avionics displays for it. If you wanted to go with Avidyne, you could get a package that included the IFD550, an AMX 240 audio panel, an AXP340 transponder with ADS-B out and a SkyTrax 200 ADS-B receiver, an antenna and the installation KITS for a little over $25,000. Add an IFD 440 for another $15,000 You're at $70,000 and no autopilot. I like Dynon, plus they're a 'local' company here in Washington State. You can buy a 10" and a 7" landscape display for less than $10,000. Dynon pricing is a lot lower, but the autopilot is going to be the issue. Plus, you'll still need to add the GPS and Nav/Comms. I think Dynon has a bit farther to go yet with integration into what you need. Anyway you look at it, unless you want to do it piecemeal, and I'm not getting that vibe, you're going to be looking at close to, or over, $100,000 all said and done. Personally, if I was doing Lola's panel, she would end up with a new Garmin system. Two displays, two GTN650Xis, a GFC500, a GMA 350c and either the GI 275 (preferable) or the G5 for required backups. It's all Garmin, it's all going to work together, but it will require a new panel. You'll get rid of everything else, though. Clean panel design. She'll look wonderful. My two cents, for what it's worth. This is an linkfrom Controller for a T210N. Check out the panel. Your panel could look similar to this, except get rid of the JPI 900 and replace it with the 7" Portrait G3X Touch with EIS. www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/233773819/1982-cessna-turbo-210n-piston-single-aircraft
I have a T210N as well. It has dual G5’s, GFC500, 530w, king kx155 for #2 comms, jpi 700 and other antiquated engine instruments. I just booked a spot at the shop end of October to do: CiES fuel gauges, JPI 930, Garmin GDL69A for XM, gnc 355 to replace the kx155, and flight stream 210.
Excellent video Dan and Bryan. I am anxious to see what you decide to do for Lola. I haven't flown anything but steam gauges and Garmin 430, so I can offer any options. Keep up the excellent work. Safe skies my friends 🇺🇸🛩️
This would be my vote: 1) since you like the Aspen, keep it and/or upgrade it. Also add the second and possibly the third Aspen if it floats your boat. 2) swap out the 430 for a Garmin GTN650Xi. 3) swap out the old Cessna nav/com for the new Garmin GNC215 nav/com. Garmin is basically the only game in town for nav/coms anyways. 4) replace the Cessna autopilot for the GFC600. 5) keep your audio panel or swap it for a PS Engineering PMA450C 6) keep your transponder, and engine monitor. If you want a full EFIS system my vote would be for a 10” G3X system with EIS, and a GFC500 autopilot. Genesis 3100 autopilot: I personally wouldn’t purchase one unless my aircraft already had a previous STEC system already installed. Their cost savings that they advertise is based on the servos and brackets that are already in the aircraft. A lot of labor goes into an autopilot installation. I would recommend to talk to experts like Joe Casey and Martin Pauley on autopilot choices. Joe has flown everything, and he always recommends the GFC series autopilots over anything else. Especially for the IFR mission you seem to fly.
Dan and Christy, Thank you for taking the time meeting me yesterday. And thank you for signing my rib! The youtuber i spoke of is "code 7500" and as I went back to look him up, it appears he's taken down his content which is an absolute shame! I don't suppose that can be reuploaded to get him back? youtube.com/@code_7500?si=r4dBS3IYKr7RG6PT Again, Thank you!
Upgrade the Aspen to the pro max one with synthetic vision and add an IFD 440 fms. Both go in the trays you got and you're good to go. A/p upgrade is nice but if yours is working then it's fine
On my 65C182H, I installed a JPI EDM900. Certified as primary equipment, this engine monitor is a most have for any legacy aircraft. Additionally, I subscribe to SAVVY's program which provides me unlimited reveiew of my engine's performance from the downloaded JPI data. Believing in the real need for accurate inflight engine monitoring (plus detailed engine performance data used for maintenance insight), several years ago I made the conscious decision to invest my money in the EDM900 versus replacing my Bendix King KLN94 IFR certified (Non-WASS) navigator. Avionics are expensive ... engine replacements are generally more costly ... oh, operating engines keep you airborne.
I have a GFC500 in my Comanche and I think it is by far the best autopilot available for you. The Avidyne 440 is a plugin replacement for your GNS430. The ASPEN Evolution has 3 screens that fit in the same round holes as your 6 pack. That solution would probably be the cheapest. The advantage of the Aspen solution is that they are the same so that if the PFD fails another unit can take over. I have the G500 TXi in my Comanche with a GTN 650Xi and a GI 275 backup for the G500TXi. I’m based at KGPM and would be more than happy to show you my system. Martin Pauly went from Avidyne to Garmin GTNs and Aspen PFD and MFD with the GFC600 autopilot but I am sure you know that.
@@TakingOff I’m not Brad. I’m Martin. I’ve met you at taping sessions and Bryan but you were very busy and probably don’t remember. Bryan knows who I am.
Garmin has been great for both my A36 and now B58. The GFC500 autopilot is the best choice IMO and you will get smart glide if you stay in the same ecosystem. But you already have the engine monitor and aspen instrument so starting over to get smart glide isn’t really as cost effective. That was always my goal with my A36 and now the smart rudder bias with the baron. According to martin Pauly, you can get the aspen and Garmin autopilots to well together with no issues now.
Dan, here's my two cents on your panel upgrade. Keep Aspen tech and upgrade your current one and add the Aspen MFD. Next, if you have the money, get the Garmin GTN 750, sell/trade in the 430w and old radio and get a Garmin GTR 200 COMM/NAV for the second radio. The 750 will allow you to replace that old CRT used for the Radar as it can show weather radar while still provide COMM/NAV and GPS moving map. Integrate Aspen tech with the Genesys S-tech auto pilot. I'm not a fan of the square EI but you already have it, so keep it.
I have nearly the same ‘81 T210N as you. I did a panel upgrade a year and a half ago to a Garmin G3X base with GFC 500 Autopilot and love it. I only fly cross country as well and fly every week to work in Chicago (I’m an airline pilot with Southwest Airlines). I’ll be at Airventure this week with the airplane. I’d be happy to show you what I did in person if you like or have time.
For my C170 I went all Garmin . GNX 375 , GI275’s and garmin com. I like the GI275 MFD and they fit into original holes. Trying to keep my Vintage panel looking Vintage and they help with that. The only thing I don’t like with the Garmin is the expensive updates every year. Also the C170 doesn’t have a autopilot.
My experience in upgrading my T210 is that basically everyone except garmin has really spotty overall support. They all say they support everything and every integration but the hard reality is if you want everything to work perfectly you have to invest a mountain of your personal time chasing down things that don’t work quite right. Ferrying the airplane around etc. I’ve found a lot of the aspen and stec dealers just don’t have much expertise in those anymore. Likely they did at one point but I think it’s one of those things where they install 10 or 20 garmin setups for each non-garmin now so the knowledge base suffers. That is my experience anyway with the smaller avionics shops around north Texas. The big name shops recognized nationally may not have the same trouble. Oh and that 400B autopilot really is a good autopilot, parts are available and there are still a few people just under retirement age that can go through it properly. Personally I’d keep the 400B unless I was going to a fully integrated flight deck like a G3X/g500.
I really considered that. But when I talked to Dynon-- there wasnt an autopilot that would work. I would have to get a 275, bypassing all that great glass.
There is always a lot to consider with avionics, but the bottom line always comes into play... how much are you wanting to spend, how much are you willing to spend? In my 182RG we had the original 6-pack instruments, but spaced out to the side of the Aspen 1000 Pro. If you're going to keep the Aspen, it limits the autopilot interaction I believe. Personally my priorities in my 182RG were clean looking panel (no wires all over the place, that's just me, it makes me a little nuts.) Ease of interaction. We really got it cleaned up in my Baron by going all Garmin: Dual G5s to go along with the other 6-pack instruments because I like the classic look; JPI Engine Monitor; GTN650; GFC600; GTX345. I use a Foreflight Sentry for back up GPS source; 2 iPads (mini and 10"). I personally believe ease of integration and communication, while not the cheapest buy-in, is better in the long run so you don't have issues with compatibility, or work that needs to be re-done. I hate having to pay to have something pulled out and entirely replaced because my Part A from one manufacturer no longer interfaces with Part B from another, after already paying to have it all pulled out and installed in the first place.
There's something super nice about having an integrated system like Garmin or Dynon. Where your PFD inset can show you nearest airports and you can select one then load the frequencies into the radio. Personally I don't think I'd consider a piecemeal system. Yes it's more money up front but it will last decades and reduces cockpit workload.
If you do Aspen you will need S-Tec3100 the integration is fantastic. You can go Garmin G5s and GFC-500 (supported on your plane). In both cases, I would use Avidyne IFD and their remote transponder (AXP 322) and ADS-B In. (SkyTrack 200). You can have your Aspen upgraded; they have a trade-in program to go to the Max PRO.
Here’s my opinion - do whatever best fits you, your aircraft, and your mission I’ve spent the last 3yrs listening to people tell me what I should do blah blah blah Researched a lot of different options/combinations Bottom line in April this year I committed to an avionics upgrade and an avionics shop to do the upgrade. I am happy and satisfied with my decision, so in the end the only person I have to blame is myself When upgrade is finished I will have an aircraft that will take me to IFR checkride and that I will feel confident flying my family and friends in IMC conditions 100% money back guarantee for what you paid me for my opinion Best regards David
You have a lot of pathways you can go Dan. I replaced my Garmin 430 with an IFD 440 and I’ve never looked back. However, with your Garmin 345 transponder, will you still get traffic on the map display with the IFD? That is a good question for Avidyne. You might be better off to get a GTN650 since I know from past experience they play well together. As far as APs, I think the Garmin 500 AP needs the AI to drive it and there may or may not be an interface between the Aspen PFD to drive it. If the IFD 440 will work, consider the Avidyne AP as I think the Aspen and IFD will drive it. It’s too Trio is not approved for the 210 as I put one in the Arrow and I like it. I’ll be at OSH arriving Friday with Cherokees to OSH. I know you’ll be busy, but I can pass along what I’ve learned if you can spare a little time.
To simplify, first, pull the 2 NAV/COMMs and put a 750Xi in the radio stack above the 430W (which you keep) as it works great as a secondary GPS. Along with the 750Xi will be a FlightStream 50, which allows you to sync Flight Plans between the iPad and the Panel. Make sure the shop connects the 430w to the 750Xi as it can accept FlightPlans from the 750Xi. This is light touch as you might only need a new GPS antenna if you don't have two already, but the NavCom antennas connect to the 750Xi. On my T210L, I have a stack of 2 G5's and I can select with GPS (750Xi or 430W) to drive the A/P. This means I use the 750Xi as my primary navigator, and the 430w as my secondary navigator, like for either a different approach to the same airport or as an alternate. If I get a runway change late in the approach, I simply use the G5 to switch my A/P and navigation to the 430w. Same if I go missed, or don't even try the approach, I can simply switch to the 430w and the A/P immediately switches to that navigation source. Replace the A/P with a Garmin 500. You will find the knobs to be much more useful. I use the 430w to drive the JPI for GPS data as I usually have the destination loaded for my flight data, and its screen always shows me the distance and time to direct. While I did install a Yaw Dampner on my Garmin 500, I am not sure how much value it really adds, and you have to remember to disable the YD on the approach. Along with the 750Xi and the 500 A/P, you get VNAV capability. Last edit. I looked at the Avidyne 440 to replace the Garmin 430w, but until the 430w breaks, you don't have to make that decision, since it is a slide-in replacement. And when my 430w breaks, I will probably put a 650Xi in instead. I also looked in Dynon for the PFD, but in the end, decided if I ever put in a PFD, it would be the G3 Touch. I believe there is a lot of value in that all my avionics is Gamin instead of a mishmash of different vendors I have to debug or get finger-pointing in the future.
Hadnt thought about the 750Xi... Ill look into that. ANd hadn't thought about a yaw dampener either. Ill need to research that more. THanks for the input!
This will be our 39th year as an exhibitor being single minded about audio panels. I hope you’ll be able to stop at our booth in Building A next to Aircraft Spruce. PS Engineering has slide in replacements for your current audio panel. I will also try to make the Wednesday UA-cam event!
@@eddyhahn4650 True and only to 500’ AGL for coupled approaches. However, say you have 2 nav/comms and there is a RNAV LPV or LP approach to the same minimums, why would you even bother with the ILS. Also, with 2 nav/comms you could do an VOR approach with Nav 2 tuned to the VOR and Nav 1 driving the AP with the GPS overlay. You’re monitoring the needle on the VOR. The advantage of the Trio is the horizontal and vertical being independent you can turn on or off one or the other. Can’t do that on a GFC500, it’s either on or off.
I have the IFD-450 and Aspen 1000 Pro Max in my 182. Awesome comb and love it. Will be upgrading my STEC-55x in the next two years. All three work seamlessly together. Aspen gave me full $5,000 credit on the upgrade.
Hi Dan, hi Bryan, good to see you guys in action together….. the comic odd couple of aviation! 😊 Ok to business, all I can comment on is our 60 year old Comanche with its two year old avionics, no longer one for the purists but hey, it works for us over here in the old country, England 🇬🇧. I went with a twin screen Aspen set up, coupled to a Garmin 650 and GTX 345, all driven around the countryside by an S-TEC30+Alt autopilot. So that autopilot was already installed and is a little older, but works ok and offers GPS Steering (GPSS) to allow smooth lateral navigation. The vertical mode is quite basic, being altitude hold only. It’s not quite clever enough to auto level off when climbing or descending - the monkey in the left seat has to wake up for those bits. And it can’t couple to the vertical elements of an instrument approach. To achieve that just add more $$$ and a more modern device. Aspens have the advantage of working with almost any autopilot out there. Also, you can choose to grow your displays with either one, two or three screens, thereby reducing more and more of your legacy six pack. Not everyone likes the vertical layout that Aspen has gone with. Subjectively, my experience is that the Aspens have a couple of disadvantages also - my screens run very hot, the text is really quite small (forget trying to read an approach chart easily) and I don’t find the user interface particularly intuitive. More disappointingly I have had quite a few Chk Target Attitude messages. This is caused by internal sensor disagreements, and is quite frequently seen by Aspen users. It usually resolves itself, up to the day when it won’t. The world of avionics really is a question of budget, and nowadays product availability - as you said you want something installed pronto to help with those long x-countries. Sooner or later, panel layouts can start exceeding the value of the aircraft, which doesn’t make a lot of sense, but then hey, it’s aviation, it’s not supposed to make sense! When you’re done, don’t forget to tell your insurer, you may want to increase the value of your newly decorated asset….. which in turn will cost you a larger annual premium. Good innit….? Have fun at Oshkosh, happy landings and thanks for all the work with Taking Off.👍🙏
Thanks for the input! Good point on availability being a factor. I'll need to factor that in. As far as text size on Aspens, since I wear glasses, I haven't had a problem on the Aspen screens. And yes, from my research, seems Aspen plays the nicest with everyone.
👍✅ Always a good time when BrYan is on board👏 New equipment is always fun especially when its someone else's money and headache to install. Gonna be great when it's finished Dan.
Dan you are looking tired, do take care of yourself. That said, I'm definitely looking forward to seeing you talking to the avionics companies. It'd also be great to see more of you flying around in Lola, even just chatting away behind the stick.
Don't buy stec! I hear nothing but problems. And for the same money as Garmin (Garmin has more resale value). I don't know why anyone would buy stec unless they were absolutely committed to not getting a Garmin HSI to run it
@@TakingOff I wish I could point you to specific evidence. I'm just boiling down a lot of separate anecdotes that I've heard/seen. Basically they seem to work fine when they're working, but they seem to be unreliable. And factory support is abysmal when you have a problem. They basically just blame some other part of the system (since none of the rest of it is genesys). I've talked to people who regret installing stec and are replacing with Garmin (at significant cost obviously). Mostly it just doesn't seem like genesys is a quality company. I never really hear anyone say anything good about them. And it's not like they're cheaper. Honestly I don't know how they sell any units. If it was a lot cheaper it would be something to really consider. And the resale value, especially in a nice 210, dramatically favors Garmin.
Their servo design is analog and probably 40 years old. GFC servos are digital and designed with in the last 20 years. Talk with Joe Casey about why he recommends Garmin over Genesis.
@@aaronboulais4498 I would be very interested to hear what Joe Casey has to say on the subject. Maybe I have in the past and that's enrolled into my remembered anecdotes of stec problems
My plane’s name is also Lola. She’s a 1980 PA28-236. She has new avionics. GTN750xi, G3X, GFC500, G5 backup.
Okay, biggest question is 'How much do you want to spend?' You could probably match the hull value of the airplane in a panel upgrade. You probably will!
If you want to go Garmin, the G3X Touch 10.6" Landscape and 7" Portrait with a six cylinder engine monitor. A little over $21,000. That replaces ALL the instruments in your panel right now. Your Radar, considering it's age, you might want to consider replacing that. The G3X Touch is going to be able to display weather on your displays as it's downloaded. I don't see that the G3X can display data from the Radar system, however. So, my question is, we know that an on-airplane Radar is nowadays a more 'tactical' device for dodging thunderstorms and such, and the downloaded into you'd get from Sirius is more for longer range planning, how much time do you use the Radar for getting around thunderstorms?
On the other hand, the G500/G600 TXis will both support Radar, but only Honeywell/Bendix and only the RDS80/81 and the RDR 2000/2100. So, you'd need to upgrade the Radar system. The G500TXi is like $18,000 just for the 10" display and the G600TXi is $28,000 for the 10" display.
The GFC500 is supported for Lola, I think. The certifications go all the way back to the T210F, and I'm pretty sure she's newer than that. While I am no longer an active pilot and haven't been for a very long time, I like the LVL Level button on all of the Garmin Autopilots. Even experienced Instrument Rated pilots can get vertigo and the LVL button just helps to get back on track. Price starts at about $9,000, but figure it'll be closer to $15,000 by the time you're done with everything.
GPS/Nav/Comm. Well, I'm sure that the GTN 750Xi would be top of everyone's list, but we're talking $18K here. That's just $3,000 less than the two displays and engine monitor. Probably not the amount you want to spend. For $6,000 less, I'd go with the GTN 650Xi, at $12,000. With the 7" Portrait display on the G3X Touch, you can probably 'offload' a lot of the information that would be the 750 to the G3X. Maybe, consult your avionics specialist. I want a second GPS or Nav source and a second Comm unit. So, you have two choices. The GNC 355 will give you GPS and Comm for about $8,000, or the GNC215 gives you standard Nav/Comm for $5,300. Personally, I like the second GPS. IF you can afford it, the best solution would be TWO GTN 650Xis. Considering it's only $4,000 more than the GNC355, I would think long and hard over that one.
I don't think Garmin makes a remote mounted audio panel that will work with what we have here. They DO make a remote audio panel that works with the G3X Touch, but it appears to be a non-certified, Experimental use only version. Ask Garmin if they're going to make a certified version. They also make a different remote audio panel, but that's controlled by the GTN or GTN Xi radios, but only the 750 model. The GMA 350c audio panel would be what I would choose. I like the concept of this audio panel because of the '3-D Audio' feature. Of course, it requires a stereo headset, but most people are using them today anyway. The 'C;' version allows for use of Bluetooth devices, also.
Finally, as a backup, I'd want the GI 275, but I'm not sure if it's legal with the G3X for that role.
So, a 10.6" Landscape AND a 7" Portrait G3X Touch, a GFC 500, two GTN650Xis, a GMA350c audio panel, and a GI 275 backup indicator, without installation, is going to be between $65-70,000. Plus whatever it's going to cost to have it installed and whatever else they'll need, like probes for the engine monitor, etc. I'm guessing you're looking at near $100,000 or more.
Now, here's the funny thing. The GI-275 is a really cool system, but buy the Attitude Indicator, the HSI, the MFD and the EIS gauges and all together, they're going to run you about $18,000, or only about $3,000 less than the G3X 10 and 7 inch display combo with EIS. Okay, the panel is going to need to be all new for the G3X, whereas the GI275 can fit in the current panel without rework, and you do need to take that into consideration, but for me, I'd rather spend the money on a 10.6" and 7" display versus the 3" displays of the GI-275. Then again, I'm older and my eyes aren't what they used to be. 😁😂
Okay, let's talk about Aspen Avionics, since you already have one. An Evolution 2500 package. I'm using Pacific Coast Avionics, although I think Sarasota Avionics is the same corporate company. Figure about $30,000 installed for three displays. While I don't think I would want this, you are familiar with it and it would be easy to upgrade to this sort of system. I would ask Martin Pauly what he thinks of his system. He seems to be very happy with it. You can get the optional Angle of Attack, and also the SVT is also optional, so you'll need to pay for that. I'm pretty sure it's standard on the G3X. I'm not sure what autopilot system will work with the Evolution 2500, though. You might need to get that Genesys System, or the Garmin GFC 600, since I don't think the GFC 500 can interface to it. Avidyne has the DFC90, but I can't find a list of STC'd aircraft and you would need to use the Aspen Avionics displays for it.
If you wanted to go with Avidyne, you could get a package that included the IFD550, an AMX 240 audio panel, an AXP340 transponder with ADS-B out and a SkyTrax 200 ADS-B receiver, an antenna and the installation KITS for a little over $25,000. Add an IFD 440 for another $15,000 You're at $70,000 and no autopilot.
I like Dynon, plus they're a 'local' company here in Washington State. You can buy a 10" and a 7" landscape display for less than $10,000. Dynon pricing is a lot lower, but the autopilot is going to be the issue. Plus, you'll still need to add the GPS and Nav/Comms. I think Dynon has a bit farther to go yet with integration into what you need.
Anyway you look at it, unless you want to do it piecemeal, and I'm not getting that vibe, you're going to be looking at close to, or over, $100,000 all said and done. Personally, if I was doing Lola's panel, she would end up with a new Garmin system. Two displays, two GTN650Xis, a GFC500, a GMA 350c and either the GI 275 (preferable) or the G5 for required backups. It's all Garmin, it's all going to work together, but it will require a new panel. You'll get rid of everything else, though. Clean panel design. She'll look wonderful. My two cents, for what it's worth.
This is an linkfrom Controller for a T210N. Check out the panel. Your panel could look similar to this, except get rid of the JPI 900 and replace it with the 7" Portrait G3X Touch with EIS.
www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/233773819/1982-cessna-turbo-210n-piston-single-aircraft
Wow, thanks for all that information! Very helpful and I appreciate it.
@@TakingOff I'll be looking forward to seeing what her new panel is like when you're done.
I have a T210N as well. It has dual G5’s, GFC500, 530w, king kx155 for #2 comms, jpi 700 and other antiquated engine instruments. I just booked a spot at the shop end of October to do: CiES fuel gauges, JPI 930, Garmin GDL69A for XM, gnc 355 to replace the kx155, and flight stream 210.
Aspen PFD/MFD, Avidyne 540 FMS, Genesys 3100, JPI 930. Have a nice day!
Hello from Minnesota! Great discussion
Excellent video Dan and Bryan. I am anxious to see what you decide to do for Lola. I haven't flown anything but steam gauges and Garmin 430, so I can offer any options. Keep up the excellent work. Safe skies my friends 🇺🇸🛩️
This would be my vote:
1) since you like the Aspen, keep it and/or upgrade it. Also add the second and possibly the third Aspen if it floats your boat.
2) swap out the 430 for a Garmin GTN650Xi.
3) swap out the old Cessna nav/com for the new Garmin GNC215 nav/com. Garmin is basically the only game in town for nav/coms anyways.
4) replace the Cessna autopilot for the GFC600.
5) keep your audio panel or swap it for a PS Engineering PMA450C
6) keep your transponder, and engine monitor.
If you want a full EFIS system my vote would be for a 10” G3X system with EIS, and a GFC500 autopilot.
Genesis 3100 autopilot: I personally wouldn’t purchase one unless my aircraft already had a previous STEC system already installed. Their cost savings that they advertise is based on the servos and brackets that are already in the aircraft. A lot of labor goes into an autopilot installation.
I would recommend to talk to experts like Joe Casey and Martin Pauley on autopilot choices. Joe has flown everything, and he always recommends the GFC series autopilots over anything else. Especially for the IFR mission you seem to fly.
Thanks Aaron, some good comments.
Dan and Christy, Thank you for taking the time meeting me yesterday. And thank you for signing my rib! The youtuber i spoke of is "code 7500" and as I went back to look him up, it appears he's taken down his content which is an absolute shame! I don't suppose that can be reuploaded to get him back? youtube.com/@code_7500?si=r4dBS3IYKr7RG6PT Again, Thank you!
Thanks and good seeing you again today.
Aspen/Avidyne 550 and 440. They have audio panel, transponder and auto pilot
Thumbs up 👍 on your upgrades 😊
Upgrade the Aspen to the pro max one with synthetic vision and add an IFD 440 fms. Both go in the trays you got and you're good to go. A/p upgrade is nice but if yours is working then it's fine
Half working AP. Barely and the half that works.
@@TakingOff I think stec unless you do a full Garmin upgrade, which is more expensive and only really plays nice with Garmin stuff
On my 65C182H, I installed a JPI EDM900. Certified as primary equipment, this engine monitor is a most have for any legacy aircraft. Additionally, I subscribe to SAVVY's program which provides me unlimited reveiew of my engine's performance from the downloaded JPI data. Believing in the real need for accurate inflight engine monitoring (plus detailed engine performance data used for maintenance insight), several years ago I made the conscious decision to invest my money in the EDM900 versus replacing my Bendix King KLN94 IFR certified (Non-WASS) navigator. Avionics are expensive ... engine replacements are generally more costly ... oh, operating engines keep you airborne.
Yeah, I wish I’d gotten the 930 instead of the 830.
I have a GFC500 in my Comanche and I think it is by far the best autopilot available for you.
The Avidyne 440 is a plugin replacement for your GNS430.
The ASPEN Evolution has 3 screens that fit in the same round holes as your 6 pack.
That solution would probably be the cheapest.
The advantage of the Aspen solution is that they are the same so that if the PFD fails another unit can take over.
I have the G500 TXi in my Comanche with a GTN 650Xi and a GI 275 backup for the G500TXi.
I’m based at KGPM and would be more than happy to show you my system.
Martin Pauly went from Avidyne to Garmin GTNs and Aspen PFD and MFD with the GFC600 autopilot but I am sure you know that.
How are you doing Brad???? Great to hear from you. YEah, the GFC500 looks great. But then I'd need a 275 or something to drive it.
@@TakingOff I’m not Brad. I’m Martin. I’ve met you at taping sessions and Bryan but you were very busy and probably don’t remember. Bryan knows who I am.
@@LimeyTX My bad Martin! Brad who used to manage the DUblin FBO had a Limey in his callsign.
Garmin has been great for both my A36 and now B58. The GFC500 autopilot is the best choice IMO and you will get smart glide if you stay in the same ecosystem. But you already have the engine monitor and aspen instrument so starting over to get smart glide isn’t really as cost effective. That was always my goal with my A36 and now the smart rudder bias with the baron. According to martin Pauly, you can get the aspen and Garmin autopilots to well together with no issues now.
Dan, here's my two cents on your panel upgrade. Keep Aspen tech and upgrade your current one and add the Aspen MFD. Next, if you have the money, get the Garmin GTN 750, sell/trade in the 430w and old radio and get a Garmin GTR 200 COMM/NAV for the second radio. The 750 will allow you to replace that old CRT used for the Radar as it can show weather radar while still provide COMM/NAV and GPS moving map. Integrate Aspen tech with the Genesys S-tech auto pilot. I'm not a fan of the square EI but you already have it, so keep it.
Yeah I’ve wondered if the 750 is my nav solution.
I have all garmin in my T210M and absolutely love it. That said, it definitely wasn’t cheap.
I have nearly the same ‘81 T210N as you. I did a panel upgrade a year and a half ago to a Garmin G3X base with GFC 500 Autopilot and love it. I only fly cross country as well and fly every week to work in Chicago (I’m an airline pilot with Southwest Airlines). I’ll be at Airventure this week with the airplane. I’d be happy to show you what I did in person if you like or have time.
Yeah would love to see it. You know how to msg me?
@@TakingOff No., not directly. How would you like me to do that?
Can you message me on Instagram @TakingoffDan or the Facebook group?
Or in the about tab of this UA-cam channel is an email
@@TakingOff Got it. I’ll be arriving tomorrow afternoon. I’ll reach out to you after that. 😊
Should go full Brynon. Including the mini etch-a-sketch MFD.
For my C170 I went all Garmin . GNX 375 , GI275’s and garmin com. I like the GI275 MFD and they fit into original holes. Trying to keep my Vintage panel looking Vintage and they help with that. The only thing I don’t like with the Garmin is the expensive updates every year. Also the C170 doesn’t have a autopilot.
My experience in upgrading my T210 is that basically everyone except garmin has really spotty overall support. They all say they support everything and every integration but the hard reality is if you want everything to work perfectly you have to invest a mountain of your personal time chasing down things that don’t work quite right. Ferrying the airplane around etc. I’ve found a lot of the aspen and stec dealers just don’t have much expertise in those anymore. Likely they did at one point but I think it’s one of those things where they install 10 or 20 garmin setups for each non-garmin now so the knowledge base suffers. That is my experience anyway with the smaller avionics shops around north Texas. The big name shops recognized nationally may not have the same trouble. Oh and that 400B autopilot really is a good autopilot, parts are available and there are still a few people just under retirement age that can go through it properly. Personally I’d keep the 400B unless I was going to a fully integrated flight deck like a G3X/g500.
The 400B is the bane of my long xc flying. No alt pre select and after dropping $$ when alt hold failed, now it has failed again.
I would go Dynon. You can get a garmin autopilot which would work. I love my Dynon HDX panel and it’s relatively inexpensive
I really considered that. But when I talked to Dynon-- there wasnt an autopilot that would work. I would have to get a 275, bypassing all that great glass.
There is always a lot to consider with avionics, but the bottom line always comes into play... how much are you wanting to spend, how much are you willing to spend?
In my 182RG we had the original 6-pack instruments, but spaced out to the side of the Aspen 1000 Pro. If you're going to keep the Aspen, it limits the autopilot interaction I believe. Personally my priorities in my 182RG were clean looking panel (no wires all over the place, that's just me, it makes me a little nuts.) Ease of interaction. We really got it cleaned up in my Baron by going all Garmin: Dual G5s to go along with the other 6-pack instruments because I like the classic look; JPI Engine Monitor; GTN650; GFC600; GTX345. I use a Foreflight Sentry for back up GPS source; 2 iPads (mini and 10"). I personally believe ease of integration and communication, while not the cheapest buy-in, is better in the long run so you don't have issues with compatibility, or work that needs to be re-done. I hate having to pay to have something pulled out and entirely replaced because my Part A from one manufacturer no longer interfaces with Part B from another, after already paying to have it all pulled out and installed in the first place.
Thanks for the comment.
There's something super nice about having an integrated system like Garmin or Dynon. Where your PFD inset can show you nearest airports and you can select one then load the frequencies into the radio.
Personally I don't think I'd consider a piecemeal system. Yes it's more money up front but it will last decades and reduces cockpit workload.
Valid points
"Nav-o-matic" sounds like some bullshit Brian would make up and throw into a vintage aircraft video next to the Wind Deflector 6000😂😂
Exactly
An Aspen Avionics exec will be on Social Flight Live tonight at 8ET.
If you do Aspen you will need S-Tec3100 the integration is fantastic. You can go Garmin G5s and GFC-500 (supported on your plane). In both cases, I would use Avidyne IFD and their remote transponder (AXP 322) and ADS-B In. (SkyTrack 200). You can have your Aspen upgraded; they have a trade-in program to go to the Max PRO.
I'll ask them about it.
I’d advise against G5s and instead do GI275s if you go that route but I don’t see any advantage doing that over your current Aspen.
@@LimeyTX Yeah I totally agree-- 275 definitely over G5. Ive been told the difference and it's important.
I think aspen is a great choice!
Here’s my opinion - do whatever best fits you, your aircraft, and your mission
I’ve spent the last 3yrs listening to people tell me what I should do blah blah blah
Researched a lot of different options/combinations
Bottom line in April this year I committed to an avionics upgrade and an avionics shop to do the upgrade. I am happy and satisfied with my decision, so in the end the only person I have to blame is myself
When upgrade is finished I will have an aircraft that will take me to IFR checkride and that I will feel confident flying my family and friends in IMC conditions
100% money back guarantee for what you paid me for my opinion
Best regards
David
Good words
How about a Dynon panel? New Aviation Consumer article today about an install.
I looked into it. Problem for me is there is NO autopilot STC'd for the 210 that would work.
@@TakingOff I saw that later in the video. I jumped the gun a little. Have a great Osh!
Thanks!
You have a lot of pathways you can go Dan. I replaced my Garmin 430 with an IFD 440 and I’ve never looked back. However, with your Garmin 345 transponder, will you still get traffic on the map display with the IFD? That is a good question for Avidyne. You might be better off to get a GTN650 since I know from past experience they play well together. As far as APs, I think the Garmin 500 AP needs the AI to drive it and there may or may not be an interface between the Aspen PFD to drive it. If the IFD 440 will work, consider the Avidyne AP as I think the Aspen and IFD will drive it. It’s too Trio is not approved for the 210 as I put one in the Arrow and I like it. I’ll be at OSH arriving Friday with Cherokees to OSH. I know you’ll be busy, but I can pass along what I’ve learned if you can spare a little time.
Yeah the Garmin 500 would something like the 275 to drive it. Yeah Ill find out from Avidyne about the communication with the 345, good point.
To simplify, first, pull the 2 NAV/COMMs and put a 750Xi in the radio stack above the 430W (which you keep) as it works great as a secondary GPS.
Along with the 750Xi will be a FlightStream 50, which allows you to sync Flight Plans between the iPad and the Panel.
Make sure the shop connects the 430w to the 750Xi as it can accept FlightPlans from the 750Xi.
This is light touch as you might only need a new GPS antenna if you don't have two already, but the NavCom antennas connect to the 750Xi.
On my T210L, I have a stack of 2 G5's and I can select with GPS (750Xi or 430W) to drive the A/P.
This means I use the 750Xi as my primary navigator, and the 430w as my secondary navigator, like for either a different approach to the same airport or as an alternate.
If I get a runway change late in the approach, I simply use the G5 to switch my A/P and navigation to the 430w.
Same if I go missed, or don't even try the approach, I can simply switch to the 430w and the A/P immediately switches to that navigation source.
Replace the A/P with a Garmin 500. You will find the knobs to be much more useful.
I use the 430w to drive the JPI for GPS data as I usually have the destination loaded for my flight data, and its screen always shows me the distance and time to direct.
While I did install a Yaw Dampner on my Garmin 500, I am not sure how much value it really adds, and you have to remember to disable the YD on the approach.
Along with the 750Xi and the 500 A/P, you get VNAV capability.
Last edit. I looked at the Avidyne 440 to replace the Garmin 430w, but until the 430w breaks, you don't have to make that decision, since it is a slide-in replacement. And when my 430w breaks, I will probably put a 650Xi in instead.
I also looked in Dynon for the PFD, but in the end, decided if I ever put in a PFD, it would be the G3 Touch. I believe there is a lot of value in that all my avionics is Gamin instead of a mishmash of different vendors I have to debug or get finger-pointing in the future.
Hadnt thought about the 750Xi... Ill look into that. ANd hadn't thought about a yaw dampener either. Ill need to research that more. THanks for the input!
Have you considered PS Engineering Plug and Play audio panels for the GMA340 that are no longer repairable.
No, have not looked into that. Will check out
This will be our 39th year as an exhibitor being single minded about audio panels. I hope you’ll be able to stop at our booth in Building A next to Aircraft Spruce. PS Engineering has slide in replacements for your current audio panel. I will also try to make the Wednesday UA-cam event!
@@markscheuer7091 You mean Monday UA-cam event? What booth number?
Yes! The UA-cam CREATORS!
You Tube
JULY 22, 2024
MONDAY 230 - 4.00 PM COT STAGE 8
Our booth number is 1020 & 1021
Look forward to meeting you
Mark
@@markscheuer7091 Hey Mark-- thanks for stopping by the filming to say hi. I did get by your booth on Friday... very cool audio panel. Let's talk.
Let's start a Go Fund Me for new razors for Dan
Man you're not kidding! I just started with a certain monthly outfit and their razors are not good.
Will Dan Gryder be at the Meet & Greet? 😜
You've got to start hanging out with a better class of friends!!!
I know right?
Hi!
Do not do Trio (it only works with GPS approaches not ILS or LOC)!
Good to know. (Plus it's not STC'd for the 210)
@@eddyhahn4650 True and only to 500’ AGL for coupled approaches. However, say you have 2 nav/comms and there is a RNAV LPV or LP approach to the same minimums, why would you even bother with the ILS. Also, with 2 nav/comms you could do an VOR approach with Nav 2 tuned to the VOR and Nav 1 driving the AP with the GPS overlay. You’re monitoring the needle on the VOR. The advantage of the Trio is the horizontal and vertical being independent you can turn on or off one or the other. Can’t do that on a GFC500, it’s either on or off.
You have “The Bomb” on your plane. I’m pretty sure they have an autopilot controlled by that. Probably not legal though.
Levil does have a non STC autopilot, but not from their BOM- that’s an AHRS.
@@TakingOff been along time since I looked at it. I was thinking it was an integrated system.
@@Ronzola1no, but they’re a great company.
Now the meaningless arrows don't point to anything.
Points to my panel!
I have the IFD-450 and Aspen 1000 Pro Max in my 182. Awesome comb and love it. Will be upgrading my STEC-55x in the next two years. All three work seamlessly together. Aspen gave me full $5,000 credit on the upgrade.
You're going with the 55x over the 3100? Why?
@@TakingOff I think he said he will be upgrading his 55X presumably to a 3100
Hi Dan, hi Bryan, good to see you guys in action together….. the comic odd couple of aviation! 😊
Ok to business, all I can comment on is our 60 year old Comanche with its two year old avionics, no longer one for the purists but hey, it works for us over here in the old country, England 🇬🇧.
I went with a twin screen Aspen set up, coupled to a Garmin 650 and GTX 345, all driven around the countryside by an S-TEC30+Alt autopilot.
So that autopilot was already installed and is a little older, but works ok and offers GPS Steering (GPSS) to allow smooth lateral navigation. The vertical mode is quite basic, being altitude hold only. It’s not quite clever enough to auto level off when climbing or descending - the monkey in the left seat has to wake up for those bits. And it can’t couple to the vertical elements of an instrument approach. To achieve that just add more $$$ and a more modern device.
Aspens have the advantage of working with almost any autopilot out there. Also, you can choose to grow your displays with either one, two or three screens, thereby reducing more and more of your legacy six pack. Not everyone likes the vertical layout that Aspen has gone with.
Subjectively, my experience is that the Aspens have a couple of disadvantages also - my screens run very hot, the text is really quite small (forget trying to read an approach chart easily) and I don’t find the user interface particularly intuitive. More disappointingly I have had quite a few Chk Target Attitude messages. This is caused by internal sensor disagreements, and is quite frequently seen by Aspen users. It usually resolves itself, up to the day when it won’t.
The world of avionics really is a question of budget, and nowadays product availability - as you said you want something installed pronto to help with those long x-countries. Sooner or later, panel layouts can start exceeding the value of the aircraft, which doesn’t make a lot of sense, but then hey, it’s aviation, it’s not supposed to make sense! When you’re done, don’t forget to tell your insurer, you may want to increase the value of your newly decorated asset….. which in turn will cost you a larger annual premium. Good innit….?
Have fun at Oshkosh, happy landings and thanks for all the work with Taking Off.👍🙏
Thanks for the input! Good point on availability being a factor. I'll need to factor that in. As far as text size on Aspens, since I wear glasses, I haven't had a problem on the Aspen screens. And yes, from my research, seems Aspen plays the nicest with everyone.
No one works harder than Dan!
☺
👍✅ Always a good time when BrYan is on board👏 New equipment is always fun especially when its someone else's money and headache to install. Gonna be great when it's finished Dan.
Dan you are looking tired, do take care of yourself.
That said, I'm definitely looking forward to seeing you talking to the avionics companies. It'd also be great to see more of you flying around in Lola, even just chatting away behind the stick.
Airventure is days away, of course I look tired!! LOL.
Sorry I can’t make it to Oshkosh this year to help you with your mics at the meet n greet. Haha. Have a good show. Jeff
Hey Jeff! You left last time without me giving you a crew teeshirt! I owe you one.
@@TakingOff Thank you for remembering, Dan. I was hoping to get up there this year but family commitments took precedence. We’ll catch up soon.
You let Bryan fly your Plane 🥴
I know right? How crazy was that?
Can't wait till you get the new Landing lights installed. "The BRIGHTEST ( bar none !! ) Landing and Taxi Lights out there."
@@danblumel I know!!
I am a want to be pilot. What is wrong with avidyne. Panel.
Nothing. I like it, but its really old.
Don't buy stec! I hear nothing but problems. And for the same money as Garmin (Garmin has more resale value). I don't know why anyone would buy stec unless they were absolutely committed to not getting a Garmin HSI to run it
I've hopped into different airplanes with STEC autopilots and have never had a problem. Do you have any specifics about hearing problems?
@@TakingOff I wish I could point you to specific evidence. I'm just boiling down a lot of separate anecdotes that I've heard/seen. Basically they seem to work fine when they're working, but they seem to be unreliable. And factory support is abysmal when you have a problem. They basically just blame some other part of the system (since none of the rest of it is genesys). I've talked to people who regret installing stec and are replacing with Garmin (at significant cost obviously). Mostly it just doesn't seem like genesys is a quality company. I never really hear anyone say anything good about them. And it's not like they're cheaper. Honestly I don't know how they sell any units. If it was a lot cheaper it would be something to really consider. And the resale value, especially in a nice 210, dramatically favors Garmin.
Their servo design is analog and probably 40 years old. GFC servos are digital and designed with in the last 20 years. Talk with Joe Casey about why he recommends Garmin over Genesis.
@@aaronboulais4498 I would be very interested to hear what Joe Casey has to say on the subject. Maybe I have in the past and that's enrolled into my remembered anecdotes of stec problems
But im not the world most masculine man, but i know im a man and im glad im a man and so is Lola... La la lan la Lola, la lan lan la LoLa.... repeat..